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View Full Version : Video analysis of Tebow's new throwing motion


Hartley
04-25-2010, 04:27 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5118225&categoryid=2378529

Not seen it posted here yet. Pretty neat stuff.

Circle Orange
04-25-2010, 04:30 PM
The madness is officially here.

What kind of candy does he eat? I hear his favorite snack is angel food cake. :angel:

Gcver2ver3
04-25-2010, 04:32 PM
thanks...

GreatBronco16
04-25-2010, 04:38 PM
That is actually a big difference. And it looked like he had more zip on the ball with this new motion too. Me likey. :D

barryr
04-25-2010, 04:38 PM
It was very informative. I'm quite surprised that how and where Tebow holds the ball wasn't dealt with by Meyer at Florida. To me, all QB's should be holding the ball up high like what Tebow is doing now since helps to get rid of the ball more quickly and more control of the ball IMO.

UberBroncoMan
04-25-2010, 04:44 PM
It's going to be even more refined in the coming months too.

Taco John
04-25-2010, 05:17 PM
It doesn't matter until he uses it in a game.

I'm not sure why they waited until after he was done playing college ball to change his throwing motion.

bpc
04-25-2010, 05:19 PM
I guess when he was winning championships, nobody had an issue with it.

I expect our QB guru turned head coach will coach this aspect of his game up and make him into a pro bowl QB. That's the expectation which has been set after turning Cassel's career around.

DenverBrit
04-25-2010, 05:24 PM
It doesn't matter until he uses it in a game.

I'm not sure why they waited until after he was done playing college ball to change his throwing motion.

A good question to ask Urban Meyer, he designed the O around Tebow's ability to run.

The important thing is that once told he needed to correct his mechanics for the NFL, he worked hard on getting his throwing motion right. He improved drastically, which is why I'm optimistic.

My question is, can he read, or learn to read defenses?

At FL, he just ran to the nearest daylight.

Circle Orange
04-25-2010, 08:14 PM
A good question to ask Urban Meyer, he designed the O around Tebow's ability to run.

The important thing is that once told he needed to correct his mechanics for the NFL, he worked hard on getting his throwing motion right. He improved drastically, which is why I'm optimistic.

My question is, can he read, or learn to read defenses?

At FL, he just ran to the nearest daylight.

good point.

Running around freestyle is one thing, but defenders will be in some of those lanes with open arms. Coodinators will definitely "cup" the pocket with speed rushers to force Tebow into a spot. The results wouldn't be pretty. But I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

peacepipe
04-25-2010, 08:38 PM
It doesn't matter until he uses it in a game.

I'm not sure why they waited until after he was done playing college ball to change his throwing motion.

Exactly, It's going to be a while a couple yrs before his mechanics are corrected. It's one thing to do it practice with nothing to worry about, it's another thing when there is a 300 lb DE bearing down on you.

Deuce
04-25-2010, 08:49 PM
I thought I remembered ESPN saying that he tried to fix his mechanics while in college but as soon as games started he just went back to his old ways. Hopefully it will be different his time...

enjolras
04-25-2010, 09:03 PM
That's why he'll be given time to develop... He won't be playing in anything but wild horses this year, and maybe even next year. This is going to be a process...

I will say that I think he has a chance of succeeding. His footwork is very solid (which we've been told over and over again is the most difficult thing to do well) and he uses his legs to launch the football as well as you'll ever see.

So he's not being asked to completely change the way he throws the football, just his arm motion. It'll be difficult, but it can be done (look at Tony Romo when he came out of college to what he does today).

TheDave
04-25-2010, 09:09 PM
I thought I remembered ESPN saying that he tried to fix his mechanics while in college but as soon as games started he just went back to his old ways. Hopefully it will be different his time...



As part of an intriguing and at times spirited debate on NFL Network this morning, Charles Davis said that the folks at Florida worked with quarterback Tim Tebow to change his throwing motion, but that once Tebow found himself in game situations he reverted to his looping, windmill release.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/28/charles-davis-says-florida-tried-to-change-tebows-mechanics/

montrose
04-25-2010, 09:17 PM
One thing I noticed a few times watching highlights was that when Tim needed to, such as with pressure in his face, it seemed as though his release modified itself and quickened. For example, go to 1:17 of this clip:

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2KBack
04-25-2010, 09:27 PM
One thing I noticed a few times watching highlights was that when Tim needed to, such as with pressure in his face, it seemed as though his release modified itself and quickened. For example, go to 1:17 of this clip:

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I've actually noticed the same thing. Sometimes he looks to have a much more standard release. The ability seems to be there, it's a case of breaking the bad habits and keeping the good. that can be extremely difficult sometimes, unfortunately.

Xenos
04-25-2010, 09:39 PM
A good question to ask Urban Meyer, he designed the O around Tebow's ability to run.

The important thing is that once told he needed to correct his mechanics for the NFL, he worked hard on getting his throwing motion right. He improved drastically, which is why I'm optimistic.

My question is, can he read, or learn to read defenses?

At FL, he just ran to the nearest daylight.
Big Ben managed to win two Superbowls without being able to do those things well so there's always a possibility that Tebow will turn out fine even if he isn't Peyton Manning or Tom Brady in that regards.

MaloCS
04-25-2010, 09:45 PM
Everyone is putting WAY too much emphasis on this whole mechanics thing. It may make sense if everyone was a robot but the deciding factor on whether Timbow can be a solid NFL QB is his ability to make plays.

Now I'm not going to compare Timbow to Elway in terms of success but in terms of throwing motion they both leave a lot to be desired. Elway's throwing motion was horrible. He was pigeon toed and his body always looked awkward and off balance when he threw the ball. Regardless, Elway's throwing motion worked for him and that's all that matters. The same will be proven for Timbow.

The ESPN video talks about how 60 ms means an extra 2 feet of cushion as the defender is closing in. That didn't matter to someone like Elway because he was so elusive. He would avoid that defender and not just buy himself 60 ms but 2, 3 or 4 full seconds of breathing room. This is where the ability to make plays becomes a factor. How many more sacks do you think Elway would have absorbed if he didn't have the ability to evade defenders?

There was a time when NFL scouts focused on a guy's ability to play football. Today, because of the money involved, they spend their time charting meaningless things like where the QB holds the ball. Hell, I bet they even chart the guy's shoe size as if that makes a difference. We can sit here all day and dissect Timbow's throwing motion as if it makes a difference in REAL world game day situations. The fact of the matter is when the bullets start to fly his ability to make plays will offset the deficiencies of his throwing mechanics.

Count on it.

enjolras
04-25-2010, 09:48 PM
Big Ben managed to win two Superbowls without being able to do those things well so there's always a possibility that Tebow will turn out fine even if he isn't Peyton Manning or Tom Brady in that regards.

That only works if we put together a defense at the Steelers level. Big Ben is a very average (if not below average) QB from what I can tell. Orton wins a superbowl today playing with the surrounding talent Ben had in Pittsburgh.

MaloCS
04-25-2010, 09:53 PM
That only works if we put together a defense at the Steelers level. Big Ben is a very average (if not below average) QB from what I can tell. Orton wins a superbowl today playing with the surrounding talent Ben had in Pittsburgh.

Maybe but not necessarily.

Ben Rapistberger has proven to be a play making QB. He often puts in sub par performances but when the situation calls for a play to be made he gets it done. The same goes for Phylis.

How many times last year did we as Broncos fans watch Phylis pull plays out of his ass? Many if my memory serves me correctly. Nothing can beat the QB's ability to make plays. NOTHING.

We can sit here all day and debate whether or not Timbow's index finger is the right length to hold and throw an NFL football but that doesn't translate to on field success. A QB will be successful if he can make plays, regardless of his throwing mechanics. This is why Timbow needs to be the staring QB no later then Thanksgiving, 2010. He needs to take his lumps now so in 2 years he will be able to blossom.

The sooner Timbow takes his lumps the sooner the Broncos are on track to winning championships.

DenverBrit
04-25-2010, 09:56 PM
Big Ben managed to win two Superbowls without being able to do those things well so there's always a possibility that Tebow will turn out fine even if he isn't Peyton Manning or Tom Brady in that regards.

All Denver needs then is to duplicate the Steeler's D.

But I'd still like to know if Tebow can learn to read defenses. ;D

MaloCS
04-25-2010, 10:05 PM
All Denver needs then is to duplicate the Steeler's D.

But I'd still like to know if Tebow can learn to read defenses. ;D

TOO much emphasis is placed upon reading defenses. From playing the game for 13 years I honestly believe that athletes have a sixth sense.

How many times have you heard a QB say they never seen the receiver catch the ball. They just threw it and then heard the crowd react. These guys aren't sitting back there surveying ever inch of the field. They make pre snap reads and then rely on their gut instinct to make plays. I don't care how well a QB can read the defense he CANNOT determine how a defensive back will react in a certain situation. The best you can hope for when a 300 lb lineman is breathing down the neck of your QB is that his gut instincts are right more often then not.

I've heard Peyton Manning say many times that due to his pre snap reads he knows exactly where he's going to throw the ball before it's even snapped. This has nothing to do with reading a defense while the play is transpiring. It has everything to do with pre game preparation and the guy's gut instinct.

If Timbow can become adept at learning a defense's patterns and characteristics during the week then his play making ability will be that much more effective in the game. The kid WILL be a solid NFL QB. Will he be a championship QB? I don't know but his work ethic and play making ability give him a hell of a head start.

Mogulseeker
04-25-2010, 10:09 PM
It doesn't matter until he uses it in a game.

I'm not sure why they waited until after he was done playing college ball to change his throwing motion.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he had four years in college, and they didn't want to change his mechanics in the middle of it and lose ground as a result.

Now he has a full year or two behind Orton to perfect his style.

enjolras
04-25-2010, 10:09 PM
Everyone is putting WAY too much emphasis on this whole mechanics thing. It may make sense if everyone was a robot but the deciding factor on whether Timbow can be a solid NFL QB is his ability to make plays.
.....

The fact of the matter is when the bullets start to fly his ability to make plays will offset the deficiencies of his throwing mechanics.

Count on it.

Elway did have a weird almost side-arm motion, but his release was lightning fast. I agree that mechanics can be overrated, it's really about how quickly can you get the ball out of your hand and moving downfield. In the NFL your not always going to be able to create that time. A huge part of Elways escability came from his arm strength and accuracy. His best weapon was a pump fake. I can't count the number of times a defender would almost have Elway in his grasp and John would sort of half pump the ball and the defender would leave his feet. Why? Because they knew that Elway could get the ball out of there thanks to how quickly he got his arm from windup to release.

Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypo-WhahYo (footage of 'The Drive'), you can see that release in all of it's glory. There are several passes where you can see just how quickly John got the ball out of his hands.

Tebow definitely has the ability to make plays, and that's huge. However his motion is slow. He's like Byron Leftwich in that regard... (although 1000x the athlete Leftwich is). They're going to have to find a way to get the ball out of his hands more quickly, otherwise he's going to face more blitzes than any QB in history has.

I'm optimistic. I think Tebow has the football IQ to make it work. He definitely has the athletic skills and his intangibles are off the charts. I'd argue that developing better (not optimal, just better) mechanics is probably the easiest thing to ask a Quarterback to do.

Another view with some of the same footage as the original post, plus Grudens analysis:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5080617

MaloCS
04-25-2010, 10:26 PM
Elway did have a weird almost side-arm motion, but his release was lightning fast. I agree that mechanics can be overrated, it's really about how quickly can you get the ball out of your hand and moving downfield. In the NFL your not always going to be able to create that time. A huge part of Elways escability came from his arm strength and accuracy. His best weapon was a pump fake. I can't count the number of times a defender would almost have Elway in his grasp and John would sort of half pump the ball and the defender would leave his feet. Why? Because they knew that Elway could get the ball out of there thanks to how quickly he got his arm from windup to release.

Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypo-WhahYo (footage of 'The Drive'), you can see that release in all of it's glory. There are several passes where you can see just how quickly John got the ball out of his hands.

Tebow definitely has the ability to make plays, and that's huge. However his motion is slow. He's like Byron Leftwich in that regard... (although 1000x the athlete Leftwich is). They're going to have to find a way to get the ball out of his hands more quickly, otherwise he's going to face more blitzes than any QB in history has.

I'm optimistic. I think Tebow has the football IQ to make it work. He definitely has the athletic skills and his intangibles are off the charts. I'd argue that developing better (not optimal, just better) mechanics is probably the easiest thing to ask a Quarterback to do.

Another view with some of the same footage as the original post, plus Grudens analysis:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5080617

I hear you but what you're overlooking is the fact that Elway had a weird, innate ability to adapt to the situation. A player that has "IT" will do things that leave bystanders scratching their head.

Elway's success wasn't a byproduct of his throwing motion or his elusiveness or his ability to read defenses. His success was a byproduct of his ability to make plays happen. He was a magician on the field and was very unpredictable in his style of play. This is why defenders couldn't get a grasp on what he was about to do. Elway had "IT" and "IT" wasn't beautiful throwing mechanics or the ability to read defenses while the play was running it's course.

I think Timbow has "IT". Time will tell if his version of "IT" translates into NFL success. I'm crossing my fingers that it does.

Go Timbow!

Que
04-25-2010, 10:33 PM
Actually, Tim Tebow aside that was pretty cool. The stat that I thought most interesting was that 60ms = 2 feet of space from a defender when he releases.

fontaine
04-25-2010, 11:32 PM
It doesn't matter until he uses it in a game.

I'm not sure why they waited until after he was done playing college ball to change his throwing motion.

Exactly, it all looks nice in practice but until he has 300 lb linemen bearing down on him at an NFL level in live situations it means absolutely nothing.

extralife
04-25-2010, 11:59 PM
I still don't like the release angle. He's too low. And what about that leg kick thing?

easymobee
04-26-2010, 12:20 AM
My favorite movie is The Blues Brothers.

I have to tell you it feels good to know that we are now on a mission from god.

cutthemdown
04-26-2010, 01:55 AM
Actually what happens is Orton throws for about 3500 yrds this yr, 25 tds 15 picks. Hopefully less sacks then last yr. Tebow will play some but not as a starting qb.

He will have a whole lot of time to work on those mechanics IMO.

Rohirrim
04-26-2010, 02:05 AM
The little leg kick is cute. Ha!

ZONA
04-26-2010, 02:06 AM
Personally, I like 3:06 of that clip. That will be a much needed option in our offense.

Cito Pelon
04-26-2010, 06:56 AM
It doesn't matter until he uses it in a game.

I'm not sure why they waited until after he was done playing college ball to change his throwing motion.

With enough repetitions, it will become his regular motion.

I guess if it worked at the college level, why try to fix it?

Cito Pelon
04-26-2010, 06:59 AM
A good question to ask Urban Meyer, he designed the O around Tebow's ability to run.

The important thing is that once told he needed to correct his mechanics for the NFL, he worked hard on getting his throwing motion right. He improved drastically, which is why I'm optimistic.

My question is, can he read, or learn to read defenses?

At FL, he just ran to the nearest daylight.

McD was just on the radio, said they tested Tebow reading D's and he was better than most of the other QB's he's tested.

I think the website is vicandgary.com

Drek
04-26-2010, 07:29 AM
good point.

Running around freestyle is one thing, but defenders will be in some of those lanes with open arms. Coodinators will definitely "cup" the pocket with speed rushers to force Tebow into a spot. The results wouldn't be pretty. But I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

That didn't work well for Miami, Alabama, Florida State, Auburn, etc.. A bunch of schools that have NFL level athletes (not necessarily football players mind you) across their entire starting defense and Tebow still ran over, around, and through them the majority of the time.

Tebow is at this point a QB/RB. He isn't Mike Vick where he's got great speed but hasn't shown he can take the beating. Tebow has been taking shots from NFL level talent his whole career and hasn't broke down yet. He's always been able to make plays. That will likely continue.

What will be interesting is how his throwing motion develops. Mayock says its pretty text book when he's got time, stays in the pocket, and is running a pass first play. Its when he's under pressure, scrambling, or has an option play where he chooses to throw after checking for lanes that he gets the big windmill motion going (which is a huge part of Florida's offense, so that is what everyone sees the most).

It'll be interesting to see how he reacts to a pro style offense that juxtaposes the run/pass hierarchy he experienced the most in college. He has to overcome the same mental hurdle that Vick never really resolved in becoming a pass first/run second QB. If he does just that alone we're already talking about a completely different player. One who likely doesn't have nearly as much of an issue making text book throws.

DenverBrit
04-26-2010, 08:57 AM
TOO much emphasis is placed upon reading defenses. From playing the game for 13 years I honestly believe that athletes have a sixth sense.

How many times have you heard a QB say they never seen the receiver catch the ball. They just threw it and then heard the crowd react. These guys aren't sitting back there surveying ever inch of the field. They make pre snap reads and then rely on their gut instinct to make plays. I don't care how well a QB can read the defense he CANNOT determine how a defensive back will react in a certain situation. The best you can hope for when a 300 lb lineman is breathing down the neck of your QB is that his gut instincts are right more often then not.

I've heard Peyton Manning say many times that due to his pre snap reads he knows exactly where he's going to throw the ball before it's even snapped. This has nothing to do with reading a defense while the play is transpiring. It has everything to do with pre game preparation and the guy's gut instinct.

If Timbow can become adept at learning a defense's patterns and characteristics during the week then his play making ability will be that much more effective in the game. The kid WILL be a solid NFL QB. Will he be a championship QB? I don't know but his work ethic and play making ability give him a hell of a head start.

I hear them say 'I didn't see the defender' much more often.

As for Manning, no one reads a defense pre-snap better than he.

DenverBrit
04-26-2010, 08:59 AM
McD was just on the radio, said they tested Tebow reading D's and he was better than most of the other QB's he's tested.

I think the website is vicandgary.com

Thanks, that's reassuring.

Steve Sewell
04-26-2010, 09:51 AM
Maybe but not necessarily.

Ben Rapistberger has proven to be a play making QB. He often puts in sub par performances but when the situation calls for a play to be made he gets it done. The same goes for Phylis.

How many times last year did we as Broncos fans watch Phylis pull plays out of his ass? Many if my memory serves me correctly. Nothing can beat the QB's ability to make plays. NOTHING.

We can sit here all day and debate whether or not Timbow's index finger is the right length to hold and throw an NFL football but that doesn't translate to on field success. A QB will be successful if he can make plays, regardless of his throwing mechanics. This is why Timbow needs to be the staring QB no later then Thanksgiving, 2010. He needs to take his lumps now so in 2 years he will be able to blossom.

The sooner Timbow takes his lumps the sooner the Broncos are on track to winning championships.

It is all about playmaking.

Anyone who was around watching the Broncos during the 80's knows that Elway had some truly HORRENDOUS performances where he made a play or 2 and pulled wins out of his ass. That is what he's remembered for.

There was a large sector of people during that time who said (and still do to this day) that Marino was a far superior QB to Elway. The difference? Elway took his team to 5 Super Bowls and won 2 of them. Marino took his team to 1 Super Bowl and lost it. Both of them operated on teams where they were somewhat of a one man show surrounded by mediocre talent.

There are people who focus on aesthetics and people who don't care about any of that as long as their team is winning. Count me in the latter categories. I just wish more of our fans could remember or experience the Elway years prior to the SB victories.