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Dukes
04-23-2010, 03:48 AM
Credit Garcia for posting in another thread. Just thought it was worth it's own thread.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html
A tale of six quarterbacks

The glittering genius of the Cold, Hard Football Facts is that we admire only numbers and productivity.

We put little stock in a player’s pedigree. And we put even less stock in the “pundits” and their outdated weapon of choice, the opinion, which bounces off the steely armor of our analysis so helplessly, like nothing but little pebbles of pigskin overwhelmed by our M1A1 Abrams tank of truth.

So it is today that we dive into one of the biggest stories of the 2010 NFL draft by looking at the college productivity of six legendary quarterbacks here in the modern pass-happy era.

Six Big-Name College Quarterbacks
Player Comp. Att. Pct. Yards YPA TD INT Rating*
Player A 851 1,354 62.85 11,201 8.27 90 33 100.93
Player B 825 1,232 66.96 8,772 7.12 76 37 95.60
Player C 841 1,383 60.81 10,286 7.44 84 36 93.15
Player D 493 797 61.86 6,625 8.31 52 21 99.04
Player E 564 986 57.20 7,731 7.84 51 33 85.72
Player F 661 985 67.11 9,286 9.43 88 15 120.72


The numbers aren't even close. One player dominates. One player leaps screaming off the list, like Horshack on "Welcome Back Kotter" when he knew the answer to a question: “Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!”

That dominant individual, of course, is Player F. This quarterback:
•Was the most accurate of any of these six passers.
•Dominated the average per attempt category – our favorite number – by better than 1 yard per attempt over the No. 2 player on the list.
•Boasts a passer rating so sky high it defies description, nearly 20 full points better than the No. 2 player on the list.
Elsewhere, Player F was No. 2 in total TD passes – but easily No. 1 in TD pass percentage. Player F threw a TD on 8.9 percent of his pass attempts – easily outpacing Player A, who threw a touchdown on 6.6 percent of his pass attempts.

Finally, Player F protected the ball much better than any of the other quarterbacks on this list. Player F threw an interception on just 1.52 percent of attempts – easily outpacing Player C, who threw an interception on 2.60 percent of attempts. And you know what we've always told you: quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. Quarterbacks who don't throw picks win games.

Dying to know who they are, arentcha? Well, the numbers represent the college career stats of six of the greatest quarterbacks in the modern history of the SEC. Here goes:
•Player A is Peyton Manning. He played for Tennessee in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1998 draft.
•Player B is Tim Couch. He played for Kentucky in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft.
•Player C is Eli Manning. He played for Ole Miss in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2004 draft.
•Player D is JaMarcus Russell. He played for LSU in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2007 draft.
•Player E is Matt Stafford. He played for Georgia in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 draft.
•And, finally, Player F is Tim Tebow. He played for Florida and the SEC and will be far from the No. 1 overall pick in the 2010 draft.
The list tells us many things.

First, it tells us that the SEC has dominated the draft in recent years, as you probably already knew. But five guys at the most important position on the field taken No. 1 overall in a 12-year stretch is a remarkable accomplishment, even by the lofty standards of the dominant conference in college football.

Second, it tells us that NFL talent evaluators are out of their ****ing minds.

Tebow, as you know, is the biggest question mark in the 2010 draft among the pigskin punditistas. He's the highest rated passer in the history of SEC football. He was easily a better passer than Peyton Manning or Matt Stafford or Tim Couch or any of the guys whose ability to pass was never really questioned by NFL talent analysts.

And yet NFL evalautors for some reason aren't sold on Tebow. Couch and Russell are two bona fide NFL busts, even though pro football talent evaluators couldn't usher them into the league fast enough. Yet these same talent evaluators harbor grave doubts about the ability of the greatest and most efficient passer in SEC history to pass the ball at the next level.
Consider, Charley Casserly, the longtime NFL executive turned NFL Network analyst, who was on the air Thursday telling the world that Tebow will go no higher than the fourth round of the draft next month.

Other executives seem obsessed by the trivia over Tebow’s mechanics, while overlooking the rather irrefutable fact that he dominated college football like no player in memory and despite the fact that he was, by any objective measure, a much better passer than Couch, Russell, Stafford, and either of the Manning brothers.

Tebow not only passed the ball far more effectively than any of these No. 1 overall picks. It pays to remember that, in his spare time, he set the SEC career record for rushing touchdowns. Oh, and he won a Heisman Trophy and two national titles. Other than that, he didn't do much.

The anti-Tebow crowd will argue, weakly, that he was surrounded by greater talent than those other passers.

The anti-Tebow crowd, of course, has its head up its ass.

Let’s look at Peyton Manning. Last we remember, he played with not one, not two but three receivers taken in the top two rounds of the draft: Joey Kent, Marcus Nash and Peerless Price. His team was so loaded with talent that it won the national title the year after he left.

JaMarcus Russell played with arguably the most talented teams of the past decade. They won national titles in 2003 and 2007 and he watched as 34 of his LSU teammates were grabbed in the NFL draft.

Stafford? Well, Georgia is a prolific pipeline of NFL talent. Stafford was one of three starting offensive players from the 2008 Bulldogs taken in the first 50 picks of the 2009 draft (Knowshon Moreno, Mohamed Massaquoi).

Ole Miss is hardly the SEC’s best hotbed of talent. But almost the entire offensive line that protected Eli Manning was good enough to earn a shot in the NFL, including not one but two of his centers: Ben Claxton (2003 draft) and Chris Spencer (2005), one of a small handful of centers ever taken in the first round of the NFL draft.

Couch? Sure, he didn't have much around him. In fact, he's one of just three first-round draft picks to come out of Kentucky in the last 25 years. But in any case, his passing numbers pale in comparison to those produced by Tebow.

The anti-Tebow crowd could also throw out the old David Klingler argument. You know, "anybody can put up big stats in the college game."

But Tebow didn't just put up big stats ... he put up supremely efficient stats. He was more accurate, and produced more big passing plays, and was more likely to put the ball in the end zone, and more likely to keep it out of the hands of opposing defenders, than any of the recent collection of No. 1 passing phenoms to come out of the SEC.

Tebow was, by any measure, a better player, a better quarterback and, yes, a better passer than any of these No. 1 picks.

We understand that college success does not translate to NFL success. The long history of Heisman winners turned NFL busts underscores that argument.

However, in the gamble that is the NFL draft, we'll roll the dice on the proven and unmatched passing talent of Tebow rather than on the sorry track record of pro football talent evaluators.

El Guapo
04-23-2010, 04:41 AM
Great stuff! Thanks for making this it's own thread.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 04:46 AM
Right on D. I am not saying he'll be the greatest ever, but that right there says he more than has the potential. He has the mental tools to succeed at anything he does.

thumpc
04-23-2010, 04:49 AM
Aah thats what I needed.

Dukes
04-23-2010, 04:50 AM
Right on D. I am not saying he'll be the greatest ever, but that right there says he more than has the potential. He has the mental tools to succeed at anything he does.

Completely agree. I had no idea his stats were so impressive. I never cared to look them up since I never thought we'd draft him. Stats are just stats but damn his are impressive. All you ever hear about him is he was never going to be a NFL QB and that he's religious. Here's to hoping he can turn into Steve Young 2.0

El Guapo
04-23-2010, 05:16 AM
I'm pretty sure all the hatred comes from his outspoken beliefs. Ridiculous.

KansasBronco
04-23-2010, 05:17 AM
incredible information. Wow thanks for that

ElwayMD
04-23-2010, 05:38 AM
I'm pretty sure all the hatred comes from his outspoken beliefs. Ridiculous.

and a winner...people always like to root for someone who has had a ton of success to fail.

chrisp
04-23-2010, 05:56 AM
I was not in love with the pick untill I read that article. When i did I laughed my ass off and started thinking about how legendary this draft will be if Tebow reaches even 75% of his potential....

People should note he got picked around about where Dan Marino got picked in '83.....just saying......

VERY entertaining article though - they don't beat around the bush do they?

We put little stock in a player’s pedigree. And we put even less stock in the “pundits” and their outdated weapon of choice, the opinion, which bounces off the steely armor of our analysis so helplessly, like nothing but little pebbles of pigskin overwhelmed by our M1A1 Abrams tank of truth.

The list tells us many things.

First, it tells us that the SEC has dominated the draft in recent years, as you probably already knew. But five guys at the most important position on the field taken No. 1 overall in a 12-year stretch is a remarkable accomplishment, even by the lofty standards of the dominant conference in college football.

Second, it tells us that NFL talent evaluators are out of their ****ing minds.

...just a couple of my favourite quotes!!

maher_tyler
04-23-2010, 06:13 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 06:16 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!

It'll take some adjustments from the RT, but does it matter? I mean really...really matter? Your tackles have to protect the QB whether it be from the right or left.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 06:49 AM
Cold hard facts

slyinky
04-23-2010, 06:52 AM
What's the point of continually referencing this article? Yes, Tim Tebow is widely regarded as one of the greatest college players of all-time. His success, along with gaudy numbers, are well known. The question is whether or not his talent translates to success in the pros. College does not equal NFL.

Crushisback
04-23-2010, 07:01 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!

Nah. We'll teach Tebow to throw right handed.

Rock Chalk
04-23-2010, 07:07 AM
CHFF had Denver as the Superbowl winner last year. Just saying.

Drek
04-23-2010, 07:12 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!

Harris was a left tackle in college and most thought he projected best to LT in the pros as well. He's got all the skills needed to handle speed rushers.

And that only matters if teams flip their rushers over to the other side. I bet most teams opt not to. Its not practical to ask a guy who's developed an entire set of pass rush moves with the OT outside one shoulder to suddenly mirror all those moves without any let down in play.

DEs HATE flipping sides. They'll hate it even more when they realize that Harris is a hell of a pass blocker himself.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 07:15 AM
What's the point of continually referencing this article? Yes, Tim Tebow is widely regarded as one of the greatest college players of all-time. His success, along with gaudy numbers, are well known. The question is whether or not his talent translates to success in the pros. College does not equal NFL.

You are correct to a point. It shows a trend of success. Nothing more and nothing less. HE has the arm strength, needs to work on his mechanics, and his the finest competitor in the draft. That's it.

slyinky
04-23-2010, 07:20 AM
You are correct to a point. It shows a trend of success. Nothing more and nothing less. HE has the arm strength, needs to work on his mechanics, and his the finest competitor in the draft. That's it.

I wouldn't anoint him as the savior just yet. :)

Dedhed
04-23-2010, 07:25 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!

I think the notion that Clady is devalued with a lefty QB is overstated. OL have to protect regardless. And if you're going to downgrade Clady's impact with a lefty QB, you also have to downgrade every pass rusher who's used to rushing from the right side.

chex
04-23-2010, 07:26 AM
What's the point of continually referencing this article? Yes, Tim Tebow is widely regarded as one of the greatest college players of all-time. His success, along with gaudy numbers, are well known. The question is whether or not his talent translates to success in the pros. College does not equal NFL.

+1

No one ever said Tebow wasn’t a great college QB.

But how is this supposed to be comforting when you use guys like Couch and Russell as benchmarks for comparisons? They had great collegiate careers too, and what did it get them? I’m not sold on Tebow transitioning successfully, and bottom-line for me is I won’t be until he shows he can do it. Not saying he can’t, just that I’m not sure he will.

gyldenlove
04-23-2010, 07:34 AM
Speaking of college stats, the following QBs have more yards than Tebow:

Sam Bradford, Colt MCcoy, Armanti Edwards, John Skelton, Dan Lefevour and Tim Hiller (all made it 5 digits except for Edwards)

Lefevour, Mccoy and Hiller also had more TDs than Tebow, and Bradford had the same number.

Lets not pretend that Tebow had all dominating stats, he had very good stats but nothing more.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 07:34 AM
I wouldn't anoint him as the savior just yet. :)

And I am not. I am just saying it's not as bad as everyone seems to be projecting. I would have loved it had he lasted until the 3rd round, but the coach took a chance. Hopefully it pans out.

Drek
04-23-2010, 07:35 AM
+1

No one ever said Tebow wasn’t a great college QB.

But how is this supposed to be comforting when you use guys like Couch and Russell as benchmarks for comparisons? They had great collegiate careers too, and what did it get them? I’m not sold on Tebow transitioning successfully, and bottom-line for me is I won’t be until he shows he can do it. Not saying he can’t, just that I’m not sure he will.

I think the point was that Tebow grossly outplayed both of those guys in college, yet NFL 'draft gurus' claim they where worthy of the #1 overall pick while Tebow was not. Hence, draft gurus don't know ****.

Tebow's mechanical problems aren't much different from Vince Young's and he was the #3 overall pick. Tebow is a superior athlete and has proven that he has more mental toughness/acuity than Young as well.

But Young was the #3 pick, Tebow was the #25th. While Tebow crushed Young's numbers with more starts.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 07:35 AM
Speaking of college stats, the following QBs have more yards than Tebow:

Sam Bradford, Colt MCcoy, Armanti Edwards, John Skelton, Dan Lefevour and Tim Hiller (all made it 5 digits except for Edwards)

Lefevour, Mccoy and Hiller also had more TDs than Tebow, and Bradford had the same number.

Lets not pretend that Tebow had all dominating stats, he had very good stats but nothing more.

He also has two National Championships and was a key part to both of them playing in the toughest conference with toughest defesnes in all all college football.

beanerbronco
04-23-2010, 07:37 AM
Tebow should get along just fine w Dawkins.
I'm skeptical but I'm hopeful that McD will come up with some interesting formations featuring Tebow. I can see Tebow running our Wild Horses formation and lining up as a WR and being able to catch a pass or two, or taking the direct snap in the GL and taking it in for a TD (yay for not getting stuffed 4 times 1 yard away from a td).

Either way, let's just hope for the best and lets get ready for an interesting Training Camp and some QB competition.
Orton better be on his ****ing A game or he won't be around for much longer.

HERE WE GO BRONCOS!

Dedhed
04-23-2010, 07:39 AM
+1

No one ever said Tebow wasn’t a great college QB.

But how is this supposed to be comforting when you use guys like Couch and Russell as benchmarks for comparisons?

The argument against Tebow is that he's a great football player, but not an NFL caliber passer.

This article speaks volumes against that notion. How is that not comforting?

Steve Sewell
04-23-2010, 07:40 AM
What's the point of continually referencing this article? Yes, Tim Tebow is widely regarded as one of the greatest college players of all-time. His success, along with gaudy numbers, are well known. The question is whether or not his talent translates to success in the pros. College does not equal NFL.

Yeah but some here and in the media are claiming that he doesn't have the talent to play in the pros, which is laughable. He may have 5th round mechanics, but anyone that argues this guy doesn't have 1st round talent and athletic ability is a complete buffoon.

Basically, McD is betting on Tebow. I certainly wouldn't bet against a kid like that.

Paladin
04-23-2010, 07:40 AM
"Second, it tells us that NFL talent evaluators are out of their ****ing minds." And that may well include a fair number of many around here........

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 07:48 AM
Archie Griffin was one of the greatest college RBs of all time and won back to back Heismans...

So?

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 07:49 AM
Archie Griffin was one of the greatest college RBs of all time and won back to back Heismans...

So?

So it's not 1954.

chex
04-23-2010, 07:50 AM
I think the point was that Tebow grossly outplayed both of those guys in college, yet NFL 'draft gurus' claim they where worthy of the #1 overall pick while Tebow was not. Hence, draft gurus don't know ****.

Tebow's mechanical problems aren't much different from Vince Young's and he was the #3 overall pick. Tebow is a superior athlete and has proven that he has more mental toughness/acuity than Young as well.

But Young was the #3 pick, Tebow was the #25th. While Tebow crushed Young's numbers with more starts.

There are many factors to consider with this. System is one thing. Surrounding talent is another. Archie Griffin won back to back Heismans, and he was a flop in the pros. You can’t just automatically associate great success in college with great success in the pros. Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not going to call this the end of western civilization, but I think it was a bad pick because we could have bolstered one of our lines with this pick, and I was never high on Tebow as a pro prospect to begin with. There are plenty of great college QB’s who never amount to much in the NFL. I hope he proves the doubters like myself wrong. It’ll be a few years at least before we begin to see any fruits of our labor.

Paladin
04-23-2010, 07:50 AM
Archie Griffin was one of the greatest college RBs of all time and won back to back Heismans...

So?

What's your point?

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 07:51 AM
So it's not 1954.

Here's the list of Heisman winners for the last 20 years.
1990 Ty Detmer BYU Quarterback 1,482
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan Wide Receiver 2,077
1992 Gino Torretta Miami Quarterback 1,400
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State Quarterback 1,743
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado Running Back 1,743
1995 Eddie George Ohio State Running Back 1,460
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida Quarterback 1,363
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan Cornerback/ Wide Receiver/ Punt Returner 1,815
1998 Ricky Williams Texas Running Back 2,355
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin Running Back 2,042
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State Quarterback 1,628
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska Quarterback 770
2002 Carson Palmer* USC Quarterback 1,328
2003 Jason White Oklahoma Quarterback 1,481
2004 Matt Leinart USC Quarterback 1,325
2005 Reggie Bush USC Running Back 2,541
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State Quarterback 2,540
2007 Tim Tebow Florida Quarterback 1,957
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma Quarterback 1,726
2009 Mark Ingram, Jr. Alabama Running Back 1,304
[edit]

Point being: College performance often does not translate to NFL success.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 07:53 AM
Here's the list of Heisman winners for the last 20 years.
1990 Ty Detmer BYU Quarterback 1,482
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan Wide Receiver 2,077
1992 Gino Torretta Miami Quarterback 1,400
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State Quarterback 1,743
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado Running Back 1,743
1995 Eddie George Ohio State Running Back 1,460
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida Quarterback 1,363
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan Cornerback/ Wide Receiver/ Punt Returner 1,815
1998 Ricky Williams Texas Running Back 2,355
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin Running Back 2,042
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State Quarterback 1,628
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska Quarterback 770
2002 Carson Palmer* USC Quarterback 1,328
2003 Jason White Oklahoma Quarterback 1,481
2004 Matt Leinart USC Quarterback 1,325
2005 Reggie Bush USC Running Back 2,541
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State Quarterback 2,540
2007 Tim Tebow Florida Quarterback 1,957
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma Quarterback 1,726
2009 Mark Ingram, Jr. Alabama Running Back 1,304
[edit]

Point being: College performance often does not translate to NFL success.

Sure. College failure doesn't translate to any success at all in the NFL.

strafen
04-23-2010, 07:55 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!I love when people here try to outsmart themselves.
No, it doesn't matter. Both current tackles are very solids for us...

Broncoman13
04-23-2010, 07:55 AM
Tebow should get along just fine w Dawkins.
I'm skeptical but I'm hopeful that McD will come up with some interesting formations featuring Tebow. I can see Tebow running our Wild Horses formation and lining up as a WR and being able to catch a pass or two, or taking the direct snap in the GL and taking it in for a TD (yay for not getting stuffed 4 times 1 yard away from a td).

Either way, let's just hope for the best and lets get ready for an interesting Training Camp and some QB competition.
Orton better be on his ****ing A game or he won't be around for much longer.

HERE WE GO BRONCOS!


Tebow is the QB version of Brian Dawkins. Very good comp for the competitor in each. Both high character types, both vocal leaders, and both will FLAT OUT BRING IT on game day. I love a player that will "give it up" each and every down. I know there are a lot of doubters right now, but once everyone gets a chance to see how much value there is in Tim Tebow OUTSIDE of just throwing the football as a QB, I think they'll love the pick.

ColoradoBuff
04-23-2010, 07:56 AM
Here's the list of Heisman winners for the last 20 years.
1990 Ty Detmer BYU Quarterback 1,482
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan Wide Receiver 2,077
1992 Gino Torretta Miami Quarterback 1,400
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State Quarterback 1,743
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado Running Back 1,743
1995 Eddie George Ohio State Running Back 1,460
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida Quarterback 1,363
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan Cornerback/ Wide Receiver/ Punt Returner 1,815
1998 Ricky Williams Texas Running Back 2,355
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin Running Back 2,042
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State Quarterback 1,628
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska Quarterback 770
2002 Carson Palmer* USC Quarterback 1,328
2003 Jason White Oklahoma Quarterback 1,481
2004 Matt Leinart USC Quarterback 1,325
2005 Reggie Bush USC Running Back 2,541
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State Quarterback 2,540
2007 Tim Tebow Florida Quarterback 1,957
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma Quarterback 1,726
2009 Mark Ingram, Jr. Alabama Running Back 1,304
[edit]

Point being: College performance often does not translate to NFL success.

i wouldn't bet against Tebow to flourish!

ColoradoBuff
04-23-2010, 07:56 AM
Tebow is the QB version of Brian Dawkins. Very good comp for the competitor in each. Both high character types, both vocal leaders, and both will FLAT OUT BRING IT on game day. I love a player that will "give it up" each and every down. I know there are a lot of doubters right now, but once everyone gets a chance to see how much value there is in Tim Tebow OUTSIDE of just throwing the football as a QB, I think they'll love the pick.

i agree 100%

Broncos4tw
04-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Meh.. if it gets Orton out of town, I'm all for it.

Cleo McDowell
04-23-2010, 07:58 AM
Tebow is the QB version of Brian Dawkins. Very good comp for the competitor in each. Both high character types, both vocal leaders, and both will FLAT OUT BRING IT on game day. I love a player that will "give it up" each and every down. I know there are a lot of doubters right now, but once everyone gets a chance to see how much value there is in Tim Tebow OUTSIDE of just throwing the football as a QB, I think they'll love the pick.

i rike this very much.

Tombstone RJ
04-23-2010, 08:03 AM
Credit Garcia for posting in another thread. Just thought it was worth it's own thread.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html
A tale of six quarterbacks

The glittering genius of the Cold, Hard Football Facts is that we admire only numbers and productivity.

We put little stock in a player’s pedigree. And we put even less stock in the “pundits” and their outdated weapon of choice, the opinion, which bounces off the steely armor of our analysis so helplessly, like nothing but little pebbles of pigskin overwhelmed by our M1A1 Abrams tank of truth.

So it is today that we dive into one of the biggest stories of the 2010 NFL draft by looking at the college productivity of six legendary quarterbacks here in the modern pass-happy era.

Six Big-Name College Quarterbacks
Player Comp. Att. Pct. Yards YPA TD INT Rating*
Player A 851 1,354 62.85 11,201 8.27 90 33 100.93
Player B 825 1,232 66.96 8,772 7.12 76 37 95.60
Player C 841 1,383 60.81 10,286 7.44 84 36 93.15
Player D 493 797 61.86 6,625 8.31 52 21 99.04
Player E 564 986 57.20 7,731 7.84 51 33 85.72
Player F 661 985 67.11 9,286 9.43 88 15 120.72


The numbers aren't even close. One player dominates. One player leaps screaming off the list, like Horshack on "Welcome Back Kotter" when he knew the answer to a question: “Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!”

That dominant individual, of course, is Player F. This quarterback:
•Was the most accurate of any of these six passers.
•Dominated the average per attempt category – our favorite number – by better than 1 yard per attempt over the No. 2 player on the list.
•Boasts a passer rating so sky high it defies description, nearly 20 full points better than the No. 2 player on the list.
Elsewhere, Player F was No. 2 in total TD passes – but easily No. 1 in TD pass percentage. Player F threw a TD on 8.9 percent of his pass attempts – easily outpacing Player A, who threw a touchdown on 6.6 percent of his pass attempts.

Finally, Player F protected the ball much better than any of the other quarterbacks on this list. Player F threw an interception on just 1.52 percent of attempts – easily outpacing Player C, who threw an interception on 2.60 percent of attempts. And you know what we've always told you: quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. Quarterbacks who don't throw picks win games.

Dying to know who they are, arentcha? Well, the numbers represent the college career stats of six of the greatest quarterbacks in the modern history of the SEC. Here goes:
•Player A is Peyton Manning. He played for Tennessee in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1998 draft.
•Player B is Tim Couch. He played for Kentucky in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft.
•Player C is Eli Manning. He played for Ole Miss in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2004 draft.
•Player D is JaMarcus Russell. He played for LSU in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2007 draft.
•Player E is Matt Stafford. He played for Georgia in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 draft.
•And, finally, Player F is Tim Tebow. He played for Florida and the SEC and will be far from the No. 1 overall pick in the 2010 draft.
The list tells us many things.

First, it tells us that the SEC has dominated the draft in recent years, as you probably already knew. But five guys at the most important position on the field taken No. 1 overall in a 12-year stretch is a remarkable accomplishment, even by the lofty standards of the dominant conference in college football.

Second, it tells us that NFL talent evaluators are out of their ****ing minds.

Tebow, as you know, is the biggest question mark in the 2010 draft among the pigskin punditistas. He's the highest rated passer in the history of SEC football. He was easily a better passer than Peyton Manning or Matt Stafford or Tim Couch or any of the guys whose ability to pass was never really questioned by NFL talent analysts.

And yet NFL evalautors for some reason aren't sold on Tebow. Couch and Russell are two bona fide NFL busts, even though pro football talent evaluators couldn't usher them into the league fast enough. Yet these same talent evaluators harbor grave doubts about the ability of the greatest and most efficient passer in SEC history to pass the ball at the next level.
Consider, Charley Casserly, the longtime NFL executive turned NFL Network analyst, who was on the air Thursday telling the world that Tebow will go no higher than the fourth round of the draft next month.

Other executives seem obsessed by the trivia over Tebow’s mechanics, while overlooking the rather irrefutable fact that he dominated college football like no player in memory and despite the fact that he was, by any objective measure, a much better passer than Couch, Russell, Stafford, and either of the Manning brothers.

Tebow not only passed the ball far more effectively than any of these No. 1 overall picks. It pays to remember that, in his spare time, he set the SEC career record for rushing touchdowns. Oh, and he won a Heisman Trophy and two national titles. Other than that, he didn't do much.

The anti-Tebow crowd will argue, weakly, that he was surrounded by greater talent than those other passers.

The anti-Tebow crowd, of course, has its head up its ass.

Let’s look at Peyton Manning. Last we remember, he played with not one, not two but three receivers taken in the top two rounds of the draft: Joey Kent, Marcus Nash and Peerless Price. His team was so loaded with talent that it won the national title the year after he left.

JaMarcus Russell played with arguably the most talented teams of the past decade. They won national titles in 2003 and 2007 and he watched as 34 of his LSU teammates were grabbed in the NFL draft.

Stafford? Well, Georgia is a prolific pipeline of NFL talent. Stafford was one of three starting offensive players from the 2008 Bulldogs taken in the first 50 picks of the 2009 draft (Knowshon Moreno, Mohamed Massaquoi).

Ole Miss is hardly the SEC’s best hotbed of talent. But almost the entire offensive line that protected Eli Manning was good enough to earn a shot in the NFL, including not one but two of his centers: Ben Claxton (2003 draft) and Chris Spencer (2005), one of a small handful of centers ever taken in the first round of the NFL draft.

Couch? Sure, he didn't have much around him. In fact, he's one of just three first-round draft picks to come out of Kentucky in the last 25 years. But in any case, his passing numbers pale in comparison to those produced by Tebow.

The anti-Tebow crowd could also throw out the old David Klingler argument. You know, "anybody can put up big stats in the college game."

But Tebow didn't just put up big stats ... he put up supremely efficient stats. He was more accurate, and produced more big passing plays, and was more likely to put the ball in the end zone, and more likely to keep it out of the hands of opposing defenders, than any of the recent collection of No. 1 passing phenoms to come out of the SEC.

Tebow was, by any measure, a better player, a better quarterback and, yes, a better passer than any of these No. 1 picks.

We understand that college success does not translate to NFL success. The long history of Heisman winners turned NFL busts underscores that argument.

However, in the gamble that is the NFL draft, we'll roll the dice on the proven and unmatched passing talent of Tebow rather than on the sorry track record of pro football talent evaluators.

Everyone please remember, Charlie Casserly has whiffed big time too. Anyone remember Heath Shuler?

Didn't think so.

Drek
04-23-2010, 08:09 AM
There are many factors to consider with this. System is one thing. Surrounding talent is another. Archie Griffin won back to back Heismans, and he was a flop in the pros. You can’t just automatically associate great success in college with great success in the pros. Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not going to call this the end of western civilization, but I think it was a bad pick because we could have bolstered one of our lines with this pick, and I was never high on Tebow as a pro prospect to begin with. There are plenty of great college QB’s who never amount to much in the NFL. I hope he proves the doubters like myself wrong. It’ll be a few years at least before we begin to see any fruits of our labor.

I honestly just don't see your point here at all.

The article doesn't bring up the numbers to show who will or will not be successful at the NFL level. The article brings up the numbers to point out how ridiculous NFL draft gurus are in their evaluation of talent.

Tim Tebow's collegiate play was light years ahead of Couch and Russell. His attitude is equally far ahead of both. His raw athleticism is as well. But because he's got a kind of funky throwing motion that draft gurus don't like to see he's a reach in the first while guys who throw like a juggs machine but haven't won **** or performed at a high level with any regularity are #1 overall picks.

Its the Jeff George syndrome. Draft gurus get all wrapped up in what a guy does in shorts on a practice field. The article is just pointing out how stupid that analysis is.

slyinky
04-23-2010, 08:12 AM
And I am not. I am just saying it's not as bad as everyone seems to be projecting. I would have loved it had he lasted until the 3rd round, but the coach took a chance. Hopefully it pans out.

I was just messing with you because you capitalized HE.

DarkHorse30
04-23-2010, 08:15 AM
Mike and Mike commentators were glowing over the Dez Bryant pick by Dallas......and trashing the Tebow pick by Denver.

It's funny to me that players who don't show maturity, and can be a distraction to the team with their off-field antics (do I even need to list them? Ok....Holmes, Rothlessburger, can I include Marshall here?) aren't mentioned when new draftpicks that show the same trends (Bryant) are discussed.

Just looking at Tebow's stats and the information from CHF, the guy is worth a gamble, right? We are talking late 1st here, for a player that some have called the best college QB ever? His stats aren't Colt Brennan-like, but the guy is definitely a winner.

Conversely, Isn't Bryant a gamble? Yet the Mike and Mike guys all concur that he was a steal.

Former Oklahoma State wide receiver Dez Bryant is emerging as the favorite for the most dubious title in the NFL draft.

Biggest risk.

Three sources with direct knowledge of Bryant from his days in college, where he missed the final 10 games last season because of lying to NCAA investigators, said Bryant’s antics were “consistently irresponsible.”

Bryant is expected to be a first-round pick in April. Some draftniks have predicted that he will go in the top 10, although the consensus appears to be the top 15. Whoever takes him does so at their own peril.

“I wouldn’t draft that kid unless I had someone to wake him up in the morning to get to meetings, someone to wake him up for practice and someone to wake him up for games,” one source said.

A second source said Bryant’s reputation was earned because he was consistently late to team activities. That included showing up late for games.

“We’re not just talking about being a little late for warmups, but like being late for the actual game,” a source said with a chuckle. “When you start to hear some of the stories of there, you go, ‘He did what?’ ”

Bryant recently defended himself against questions about his past by claiming he is a “great person” in an interview with NFL Network. While that may be a stretch, his episodes of irresponsible behavior aren’t considered malicious.

“Dez isn’t evil, he’s not trying to hurt anybody. He’s just goofy,” another source said. “But it does make you think, ‘If he’s like this in college, what’s it going to be like when he gets paid?’ ”http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-bryantrisk022810

chex
04-23-2010, 08:20 AM
I honestly just don't see your point here at all.

The article doesn't bring up the numbers to show who will or will not be successful at the NFL level. The article brings up the numbers to point out how ridiculous NFL draft gurus are in their evaluation of talent.

Tim Tebow's collegiate play was light years ahead of Couch and Russell. His attitude is equally far ahead of both. His raw athleticism is as well. But because he's got a kind of funky throwing motion that draft gurus don't like to see he's a reach in the first while guys who throw like a juggs machine but haven't won **** or performed at a high level with any regularity are #1 overall picks.

Its the Jeff George syndrome. Draft gurus get all wrapped up in what a guy does in shorts on a practice field. The article is just pointing out how stupid that analysis is.

My point is all of his college stats mean zilch now. Supposed draft gurus are in fact discarding his collegiate success as a barometer to any future NFL success. His college numbers were amazing, and……..so, now what? Of course his throwing style is going to come up, he’s a QB for pete’s sake, why wouldn’t it? He’s already had to change his mechanics. The guy has major questions to answer. He can be smart, athletic, a great guy, great locker room presence, but can he be an NFL QB?

SonOfLe-loLang
04-23-2010, 08:26 AM
Speaking of college stats, the following QBs have more yards than Tebow:

Sam Bradford, Colt MCcoy, Armanti Edwards, John Skelton, Dan Lefevour and Tim Hiller (all made it 5 digits except for Edwards)

Lefevour, Mccoy and Hiller also had more TDs than Tebow, and Bradford had the same number.

Lets not pretend that Tebow had all dominating stats, he had very good stats but nothing more.

Are you really going to put Armanti Edwards and John Skelton in there? john Skelton played at Fordam from crying out loud. I didnt even know they had a football team and many from outside the NY area probably never heard of the school.

BroncoLifer
04-23-2010, 08:27 AM
I'm pretty sure all the hatred comes from his outspoken beliefs. Ridiculous.

Yes. I think this is the elephant in the room.

Paladin
04-23-2010, 08:34 AM
My point is all of his college stats mean zilch now. Supposed draft gurus are in fact discarding his collegiate success as a barometer to any future NFL success. His college numbers were amazing, and……..so, now what? Of course his throwing style is going to come up, he’s a QB for pete’s sake, why wouldn’t it? He’s already had to change his mechanics. The guy has major questions to answer. He can be smart, athletic, a great guy, great locker room presence, but can he be an NFL QB?

Well, I think a lot of people are asking the same question about Cutler and Young and Leinart, and a couple of guys taken last year.....

I don't think there is a guarantee tag on any player taken in the draft. How is he any different?

sutoazul
04-23-2010, 08:38 AM
CHFF had Denver as the Superbowl winner last year. Just saying.

you're right; however in this article they just stated "cold hard facts". It doesn't mean Tebow could not be a big ol' bust, but you have to go with what he's done so far... and honestly is impressive.

Look, I'm a die hard Bronco fan... I was a little surprise we actually pick him (let alone in the 1st) but now that he's also a Bronco we got to look at the upside of this guy. McD definitetly put lots of marbles in one basket with this move, let's just hope it works out. I'm a Tebow fan from now 'till he leaves the broncos (hopefully retires after completing a HOF career) :wiggle:

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 08:40 AM
Yes. I think this is the elephant in the room.

You know what? There are a lot of Christians in America who come from a tradition where you don't wear your religion on your sleeve like some politician singing about his own good deeds. It's not something you use to proclaim your own ego to the rest of the world. I know that in our new, Palinesque evangelical culture, you're supposed to constantly spew your faith, mark it under your eyeballs, point to heaven, and make sure everybody on Earth knows that you are publicly and loudly giving all the credit to the man upstairs, but in some traditions, that is simply considered the mark of self-doubt.

crush17
04-23-2010, 08:44 AM
all Tim Tebow does is win the mother effing game.

welcome aboard 15.

Tombstone RJ
04-23-2010, 08:44 AM
You know what? There are a lot of Christians in America who come from a tradition where you don't wear your religion on your sleeve like some politician singing about his own good deeds. It's not something you use to proclaim your own ego to the rest of the world. I know that in our new, Palinesque evangelical culture, you're supposed to constantly spew your faith, mark it under your eyeballs, point to heaven, and make sure everybody on Earth knows that you are publicly and loudly giving all the credit to the man upstairs, but in some traditions, that is simply considered the mark of self-doubt.

Or, it could be freedom of expression. Just a thought.

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 08:46 AM
Or, it could be freedom of expression. Just a thought.

As is the right to consider that form of expression obnoxious. :~ohyah!:

Paladin
04-23-2010, 08:49 AM
If it helps you to feel better, I think that will be toned down a bit now, but there are a lot of professional sports players who espouse religious beliefs. Nothing wrong with that, but I think his recent "ad" during the SB got to some people, although that uproar was mainly a hyped up media non-event.....

Every team out there believes God is on their side. Even armies.....

BroncoLifer
04-23-2010, 08:50 AM
You know what? There are a lot of Christians in America who come from a tradition where you don't wear your religion on your sleeve like some politician singing about his own good deeds. It's not something you use to proclaim your own ego to the rest of the world. I know that in our new, Palinesque evangelical culture, you're supposed to constantly spew your faith, mark it under your eyeballs, point to heaven, and make sure everybody on Earth knows that you are publicly and loudly giving all the credit to the man upstairs, but in some traditions, that is simply considered the mark of self-doubt.

Hey, YOU know what? I agree with most of what you wrote here, though the "Palinesque" tag is bizarre.

But that doesn't change the key point --- many people are letting their distaste and dislike for Tebow's religious beliefs and actions color their judgement of him as a football player.

bloodsunday
04-23-2010, 08:55 AM
Convincing case. I personally think people put too much on "measurables" and not enough on what the guy does on the field. I am particularly impressed by Tebow's efficiency. I am sure that's what drew McDaniels interest.

That said, I think they coulda moved up early in the second round to get him and paid a smaller price.

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 09:04 AM
Hey, YOU know what? I agree with most of what you wrote here, though the "Palinesque" tag is bizarre.

But that doesn't change the key point --- many people are letting their distaste and dislike for Tebow's religious beliefs and actions color their judgement of him as a football player.

I'm more concerned with an Urban Meyer spread offense QB coming to the Broncos and trying to make it in the NFL, and us giving up a pile of solid picks in the richest draft in a decade to take that gamble. I find overt religiosity obnoxious in any walk of life. That has no effect on the fact that I'm apprehensive about this pick. If Tebow doesn't work out, we are going to have some pretty bad years ahead on the Broncos. Spread offense QBs coming to the NFL have been a mixed bag. I'm more concerned about the future of the team than I am about Tebow's obnoxious sanctimony.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 09:05 AM
I view his beliefs as the best asset of all. He's actually gone to the Philippines and done mission work. That takes a strength and determination that many don't have.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 09:06 AM
I'm more concerned with an Urban Meyer spread offense QB coming to the Broncos and trying to make it in the NFL, and us giving up a pile of solid picks in the richest draft in a decade to take that gamble. I find overt religiosity obnoxious in any walk of life. That has no effect on the fact that I'm apprehensive about this pick. If Tebow doesn't work out, we are going to have some pretty bad years ahead on the Broncos. Spread offense QBs coming to the NFL have been a mixed bag. I'm more concerned about the future of the team than I am about Tebow's obnoxious sanctimony.

This draft is no deeper than the one Cutler came out of.

Dedhed
04-23-2010, 09:08 AM
I'm as areligious as anyone, but I could not care less. If his faith is what gives him the strength and motivation to become a great QB, so be it.

DarkHorse30
04-23-2010, 09:10 AM
You know what? There are a lot of Christians in America who come from a tradition where you don't wear your religion on your sleeve like some politician singing about his own good deeds. It's not something you use to proclaim your own ego to the rest of the world. I know that in our new, Palinesque evangelical culture, you're supposed to constantly spew your faith, mark it under your eyeballs, point to heaven, and make sure everybody on Earth knows that you are publicly and loudly giving all the credit to the man upstairs, but in some traditions, that is simply considered the mark of self-doubt.

wow. if Tim's show of faith is making you uncomfortable, please grow some nuts and deal with it.....without the whining.

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 09:11 AM
This draft is no deeper than the one Cutler came out of.

I think you are ridiculously wrong about that, but we won't know for a few years, will we?

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 09:12 AM
wow. if Tim's show of faith is making you uncomfortable, please grow some nuts and deal with it.....without the whining.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Go **** yourself?"

Apply that here. :wave:

DarkHorse30
04-23-2010, 09:23 AM
Have you ever heard the phrase, "Go **** yourself?"

Apply that here. :wave:

THAT'S an intelligent response. Got any more?

broncocalijohn
04-23-2010, 09:23 AM
So when he finally starts a game..what the hell do we do with Clady now?!?! Move him to RT?!?!

There is a very good football player and his name is Ryan Harris. You have a problem with Harris protecting Tebow?



Nah. We'll teach Tebow to throw right handed.

So, are you saying that Plummer is coming back to the Broncos as a QB coach?

Gort
04-23-2010, 09:52 AM
THAT'S an intelligent response. Got any more?

don't bother. that guy's an asshat. just put him on ignore. i did long ago.

the people who don't like Tebow have a problem with his religion. that's the simple truth. if he were a Buddhist, or Hindu, or Sikh, they wouldn't utter a peep about his beliefs. because he's a Christian and is willing to talk about his beliefs when asked, they hate him and they always will. if these folks were truly atheists, they wouldn't care one bit what Tebow's beliefs were. his beliefs don't affect them in any way. but they are not atheists. they are Jesus haters. so let's call them what they are...

the Jesus haters hate Tebow for reasons that have nothing to do with whether he will be a good QB in the NFL.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 09:54 AM
I think you are ridiculously wrong about that, but we won't know for a few years, will we?

It's just not. Slight better? slight worse? It's just about the same.

DarkHorse30
04-23-2010, 10:25 AM
the Jesus haters hate Tebow for reasons that have nothing to do with whether he will be a good QB in the NFL.

Religion and politics- equally undebateable and polarizing at times; the nature of our world.

What if: Tebow is an avowed marxist/atheist and decides to share his wealth with venezuelans, Danny Glover and Sean Penn?

Would I be angry if Denver drafted him? Probably, because I would think he is a nutbag. But what if his "religion" (following Danny, Hugo and Sean every time they're on the news, while befriending them on facebook) makes him a better player?

It may seem trivial; but with all the goofnut athletes that aren't mature enough to handle fame and fortune - you have to consider that "anything" that forces an athlete to have discipline and respect for himself and the rights of others isn't a "bad" thing for you as a fan, no matter what your belief system may entail.

chex
04-23-2010, 10:40 AM
don't bother. that guy's an asshat. just put him on ignore. i did long ago.

the people who don't like Tebow have a problem with his religion. that's the simple truth. if he were a Buddhist, or Hindu, or Sikh, they wouldn't utter a peep about his beliefs. because he's a Christian and is willing to talk about his beliefs when asked, they hate him and they always will. if these folks were truly atheists, they wouldn't care one bit what Tebow's beliefs were. his beliefs don't affect them in any way. but they are not atheists. they are Jesus haters. so let's call them what they are...

the Jesus haters hate Tebow for reasons that have nothing to do with whether he will be a good QB in the NFL.

And you base this on what exactly?

I didn’t want to take him before the draft, and I’m still pissed that we took him.

And I am a churchgoing Catholic as well. So what do you base your assertion on?

Mr.Meanie
04-23-2010, 10:48 AM
I'm more concerned with an Urban Meyer spread offense QB coming to the Broncos and trying to make it in the NFL, and us giving up a pile of solid picks in the richest draft in a decade to take that gamble. I find overt religiosity obnoxious in any walk of life. That has no effect on the fact that I'm apprehensive about this pick. If Tebow doesn't work out, we are going to have some pretty bad years ahead on the Broncos. Spread offense QBs coming to the NFL have been a mixed bag. I'm more concerned about the future of the team than I am about Tebow's obnoxious sanctimony.

They gave up a "pile of picks" that they mostly manufactured by trading down. Going into the draft they didn't have the 3rd they gave up for him, and they gave up a 4th they originally had, but got another 3rd.

In essence to move up 18 spots with the 2nd from BM, they gave up one of their three 3rd round picks and their 4th. I'm not super happy with the Tebow pick, but he was a priority on their board and I'm just glad they didn't take him at 11.

The other thing... I'm not super mad either. The only way I would have been angry is if Pouncey or Iupati were sitting there and we didn't grab them. But it is what it is.

Gort
04-23-2010, 11:51 AM
And you base this on what exactly?

I didn’t want to take him before the draft, and I’m still pissed that we took him.

And I am a churchgoing Catholic as well. So what do you base your assertion on?

you don't hate him though. you just aren't sure he's going to be a good QB at the next level.

there are those who root for opposing schools in the SEC that don't like him either. i get that. he was good. he played for a rival. he beat them alot.

but there are a number of people who have had it in for this guy simply because of his religion. they've planted phony stories in the media about him. they've attacked him about the superbowl commercial that he was in without ever seeing it. those people hate him because he believes differently than they do.

i don't know if he's a good pick for the Broncos. i don't know if he's going to be a good NFL QB. but i'm sick of seeing the Jesus haters (and there are some on the OMane who fit in that category, just check back to all Tebow threads prior to this week and you'll spot them easily) attack this guy just because they have a problem with his religion.

i'm not a muslim and i'd rather die than convert to islam, but i never wrote a single word here about Hamzah Abdullah's religion. any discussion about him here was based on football. when the topic of Tebow comes up and people bring up his Christian beliefs as a reason to mock him, then you'll see the sort of hate i'm talking about.

bronclvr
04-23-2010, 11:55 AM
I view his beliefs as the best asset of all. He's actually gone to the Philippines and done mission work. That takes a strength and determination that many don't have.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 12:24 PM
you don't hate him though. you just aren't sure he's going to be a good QB at the next level.

there are those who root for opposing schools in the SEC that don't like him either. i get that. he was good. he played for a rival. he beat them alot.

but there are a number of people who have had it in for this guy simply because of his religion. they've planted phony stories in the media about him. they've attacked him about the superbowl commercial that he was in without ever seeing it. those people hate him because he believes differently than they do.

i don't know if he's a good pick for the Broncos. i don't know if he's going to be a good NFL QB. but i'm sick of seeing the Jesus haters (and there are some on the OMane who fit in that category, just check back to all Tebow threads prior to this week and you'll spot them easily) attack this guy just because they have a problem with his religion.

i'm not a muslim and i'd rather die than convert to islam, but i never wrote a single word here about Hamzah Abdullah's religion. any discussion about him here was based on football. when the topic of Tebow comes up and people bring up his Christian beliefs as a reason to mock him, then you'll see the sort of hate i'm talking about.

What an idiot. The guy wears makeup that spouts his religion. What should people do, pretend it doesn't exist? I find his evangelism annoying. So what? It's a free county, at least until you fascists get control. I find Jehovah's Witnesses ringing my door bell annoying. I also thought Cutler's moping was annoying. You're just making **** up, like you always do, to support your polarizing political drivel. John Galt, my ass.

I'm far more concerned about Tebow's ability to make it in the NFL than I am about his religious crap. In fact, I love the way he plays the game. I first watched a game he was a in a few years ago and was very impressed. That's the kind of fire you want to see a player bring to the game (Sure as hell better than Cutler's act). I love the passion he brings to it (although the crying stuff is a little over the top). He plays hard and brings it every down. I wish for that kind of player at every position on the Broncos.

Try and get this through your thick skull: Picking Tebow is a big gamble for this franchise. It could go either way.

BTW, Hamzah Abdullah didn't walk around in a turban reciting the Koran every time he was interviewed, which is why it never came up.

NFLBRONCO
04-23-2010, 12:28 PM
I'm pretty sure all the hatred comes from his outspoken beliefs. Ridiculous.

Nothing to do with his beliefs or hatred for him personally its him being a project with no higher ceiling then Quinn imo.

DarkHorse30
04-23-2010, 12:32 PM
Picking Tebow is a big gamble for this franchise.


....because.....?

Archer81
04-23-2010, 12:36 PM
Nothing to do with his beliefs or hatred for him personally its him being a project with no higher ceiling then Quinn imo.


...and you know what his ceiling is based on what?


:Broncos:

crush17
04-23-2010, 12:38 PM
oh ho ho now we're breaking out the "its a free country card"... that's just swell...

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 12:45 PM
....because.....?

There have been spread offense college QBs that have made the transition to the NFL, and there have been some that haven't. There's a reason Tebow didn't get drafted until the 24th pick in the first round. Who knows, he might have dropped further, although there are some rumors that the Bills wanted him. So why didn't they take him with their first pick? It has nothing to do with internet draft pundits. There have been quite a few GMs and professional scouts who question Tebow's mechanics and whether his game will transfer. Nobody can argue with his college stats or his passion.

For the Broncos, that pick could have been Dan Williams at NT and three more picks in the meat of this draft. Instead, it's Tebow. I hope he's a ****ing phenomenal player and takes the Broncos to many Lombardis. I hope he comes out on the Drew Brees side of the equation. I'm also afraid he won't be able to cut it and this trade could set us back a few years. I love his spirit on the field. It's infectious. Now that he's a Bronco, I'm going to root for him to kick ass. But I still have doubts.

Requiem
04-23-2010, 12:47 PM
And there is a reason Dan Williams went where he did instead of the top fifteen talent most were proclaiming him to be. *shrug*

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 12:48 PM
And there is a reason Dan Williams went where he did instead of the top fifteen talent most were proclaiming him to be. *shrug*

Yeah, what's up with that? Did you hear anything? That was one of the more surprising developments of the evening to me.

Chris
04-23-2010, 12:53 PM
Yeah, what's up with that? Did you hear anything? That was one of the more surprising developments of the evening to me.

In our case we probably viewed it as risky to pick two Tennessee one year wonders in the first round back to back years.

c_lazy_r
04-23-2010, 12:53 PM
I'm more concerned with an Urban Meyer spread offense QB coming to the Broncos and trying to make it in the NFL, and us giving up a pile of solid picks in the richest draft in a decade to take that gamble. I find overt religiosity obnoxious in any walk of life. That has no effect on the fact that I'm apprehensive about this pick. If Tebow doesn't work out, we are going to have some pretty bad years ahead on the Broncos. Spread offense QBs coming to the NFL have been a mixed bag. I'm more concerned about the future of the team than I am about Tebow's obnoxious sanctimony.

Like we had because J. Moss didn't work out? I'm not seeing how the Tebow pick dooms the franchise if he does turn out to be a bust.

StugotsIII
04-23-2010, 12:58 PM
System offense, surrounded by elite athletes playing against lessor athletes and teams=those amazing stats.

TheDave
04-23-2010, 12:58 PM
Boy it sure didn't take long for the christian types to draw a line in the sand...


"If you don't think Tebow will be a good NFL QB then you obviously hate jesus!"


This is going to make last offseason seem like nothing at all.

2KBack
04-23-2010, 12:58 PM
Like we had because J. Moss didn't work out? I'm not seeing how the Tebow pick dooms the franchise if he does turn out to be a bust.

me either. I actually don't see it as the huge risk others seems to. The pick came from other picks that were aquired during the trade down shuffle. It's not like Denver sold the farm for the guy. If he doesn't work out Denver is no worse than they were on wed as far as i can tell. Of course if he does work out, this will be one of the most important moves in Bronco history.

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 01:01 PM
Like we had because J. Moss didn't work out? I'm not seeing how the Tebow pick dooms the franchise if he does turn out to be a bust.

Every time a franchise misses on a first round pick it hurts them. Using three picks to move into the first round and then miss would hurt more. Pretty simple. Nobody said anything about "doom" the franchise. If you don't think missing on picks hurts a franchise, I suggest you review Shanahan's last ten years on the Broncos.

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 01:03 PM
me either. I actually don't see it as the huge risk others seems to. The pick came from other picks that were aquired during the trade down shuffle. It's not like Denver sold the farm for the guy. If he doesn't work out Denver is no worse than they were on wed as far as i can tell. Of course if he does work out, this will be one of the most important moves in Bronco history.

Those picks equaled three other players, any way you want to look at it. Denver traded three possible players for one. If that one does not work out, it's the loss of three, not one. Simple.

elsid13
04-23-2010, 01:11 PM
Like we had because J. Moss didn't work out? I'm not seeing how the Tebow pick dooms the franchise if he does turn out to be a bust.

There is big difference drafting a first round QB (who should be starter for your team in near term) and drafting any other player.

Rabb
04-23-2010, 01:11 PM
Those picks equaled three other players, any way you want to look at it. Denver traded three possible players for one. If that one does not work out, it's the loss of three, not one. Simple.

well, yes but they traded back to get some extra picks and when the day was over I believe we were only out 1 pick total overall

it's not nearly as big of a deal as people are making it out to be

Dedhed
04-23-2010, 01:14 PM
Using three picks to move into the first round and then miss would hurt more.

We wouldn't have had any of those picks in the first place if Tebow wasn't the target.

Archer81
04-23-2010, 01:17 PM
Boy it sure didn't take long for the christian types to draw a line in the sand...


"If you don't think Tebow will be a good NFL QB then you obviously hate jesus!"


This is going to make last offseason seem like nothing at all.


On the flip side of that, how many people hate the pick because Tebow is so religious?

:Broncos:

TheDave
04-23-2010, 01:18 PM
On the flip side of that, how many people hate the pick because Tebow is so religious?

:Broncos:

Like I said... this is going to be one hell of an offseason

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 01:19 PM
We wouldn't have had any of those picks in the first place if Tebow wasn't the target.

Probably true. Like I said. I think Tebow has been in McDaniel's sights since before he came to Denver. But we did have those three picks in hand, so whether or not Tebow makes it in the NFL, that's his value. If he kicks ass and becomes a HOFer people will say it was a genius move and cheap. If he flops, people will say the Broncos could have used those picks on so and so, and so and so, and so and so.

Archer81
04-23-2010, 01:20 PM
Like I said... this is going to be one hell of an offseason


Thus why God/Tebow created football message boards.


:Broncos:

Rohirrim
04-23-2010, 01:27 PM
On the flip side of that, how many people hate the pick because Tebow is so religious?

:Broncos:

I think you have to draw a line between personality and performance. I think Phillip Rivers is an insufferable asshole. If he were traded to the Broncos tomorrow, I'd learn to get over it. ;D Cutler's moping drove me crazy. Same with Tebow's religiosity. It's annoying, but what matters is his performance on the field. To be honest, I love the way he plays the game. His enthusiasm is infectious. I think any football fan would love to watch him play. That other stuff I just wish he'd keep to himself, but oh well. If you believe in freedom of speech it means you put up with hearing **** you don't agree with.

Archer81
04-23-2010, 01:32 PM
I think you have to draw a line between personality and performance. I think Phillip Rivers is an insufferable a-hole. If he were traded to the Broncos tomorrow, I'd learn to get over it. ;D Cutler's moping drove me crazy. Same with Tebow's religiosity. It's annoying, but what matters is his performance on the field. To be honest, I love the way he plays the game. His enthusiasm is infectious. I think any football fan would love to watch him play. That other stuff I just wish he'd keep to himself, but oh well. If you believe in freedom of speech it means you put up with hearing **** you don't agree with.


This makes sense.

But how many people here on the board are going to have a hard time seperating his faith from what he does for the Broncos?

I really dont care if he is evangelical Christian. I could care less. I care that he wins while wearing a Bronco uniform.

:Broncos:

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 01:35 PM
System offense, surrounded by elite athletes playing against lessor athletes and teams=those amazing stats.

Sure. You are talkig about the SEC which has won roughly half of the National Championships since the start of the BCS. It's always the number 1 conference or number 2. It certainly has the best defenses every year.

Last 4 NCs

Florida
LSU
Florida
Alabama

And honestly Florida should have played Alabama again in the NC game.

2KBack
04-23-2010, 01:36 PM
Those picks equaled three other players, any way you want to look at it. Denver traded three possible players for one. If that one does not work out, it's the loss of three, not one. Simple.

as far as I'm concerned it isn't a loss unless you actually had something. This is especially true if the dealing for those picks was all in the name of targeting tebow. If that were the case, then if it weren't for McD we might not have even dealt for those picks.

Dukes
04-23-2010, 01:38 PM
System offense, surrounded by elite athletes playing against lessor athletes and teams=those amazing stats.

Florida is the only team with elite athletes?

jhns
04-23-2010, 01:46 PM
Florida is the only team with elite athletes?

No, the Huskers are.

c_lazy_r
04-23-2010, 01:46 PM
There is big difference drafting a first round QB (who should be starter for your team in near term) and drafting any other player.


How so?

I would tend to disagree. A QB is one of the most likely draft picks to "expect" to carry a clipboard for a season or two.

elsid13
04-23-2010, 01:50 PM
How so?

I would tend to disagree. A QB is one of the most likely draft picks to "expect" to carry a clipboard for a season or two.

In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 01:51 PM
How so?

I would tend to disagree. A QB is one of the most likely draft picks to "expect" to carry a clipboard for a season or two.

Exactly...unless you are desperate...like the Rams

c_lazy_r
04-23-2010, 01:51 PM
Every time a franchise misses on a first round pick it hurts them. Using three picks to move into the first round and then miss would hurt more. Pretty simple. Nobody said anything about "doom" the franchise. If you don't think missing on picks hurts a franchise, I suggest you review Shanahan's last ten years on the Broncos.

I totally agree about missing on a 1st rounder but my point is that missing on Tebow specifically doesn't mean "we are going to have some pretty bad years ahead on the Broncos".

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 01:53 PM
In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

Ravens - desperately seeking a QB - no hope
Atlanta - desperately seeking a QB - lost Vick
Jets - desperately seeking a QB - lost Favre

Br0nc0Buster
04-23-2010, 01:54 PM
In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

the only way Tebow starts at qb this year is if Orton gets hurt, sucks, or we are completely out of playoff contention

The Eagles drafted Kolb(even though not a first he was a high pick) with the intention of him sitting but taking over eventually
I think that is the plan for Tebow

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 01:54 PM
No, the Huskers are.

Huskers are great on D. Suh is a half century type player...but I can remember for 9 seconds in september when he was ordinary. :P

c_lazy_r
04-23-2010, 01:54 PM
In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

I totally agree with this statement. (the bolded)

However, my point was that picking a QB in the first round is no different than picking a corner, safety or DE. If they bust, they hurt the team. Period.

jhns
04-23-2010, 01:55 PM
Ravens - desperately seeking a QB - no hope
Atlanta - desperately seeking a QB - lost Vick
Jets - desperately seeking a QB - lost Favre

Broncos - desperately seeking a QB - have Orton

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Broncos - desperately seeking a QB - have Orton

To a degree. But No. Not like those teams.

jhns
04-23-2010, 02:00 PM
To a degree. But No. Not like those teams.

I don't know that they could put Tebow in right away even if they wanted to. Doing things like changing your throwing motion will take some time. I have only seen Tebow play a little and have no idea how good he is but I doubt he is in right away. That is unless people are overstating what he needs to work on.

Tombstone RJ
04-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Charlie Casserly drafted Heath Shuler. Heath Shuler. Heath Shuler.

Now, I know Casserly wasn't thrilled with Tebow and I listened intently to his analysis of Tebow. He basically said Tebow's mechanics are just not going to work in the NFL, at least, not right away. He also said something along the lines of "he will revert back to his bad mechanics when he is pressured."

However, this is the same guy who poured a boat load of money into Heath Shuler, the god send QB from Tennessee that set the Skins organization back like 10 years.

I'm just saying, even guys like Casserly can be 100% wrong about drafting QBs.

extralife
04-23-2010, 02:03 PM
This thread is so dumb. As I posted in another thread where this link was spammed, lets just go ahead and add Kliff Kingsbury, Graham Harrell and Colt Brennan as players G, H and I: I guess those dudes will be in the NFL hall of fame any day now!

College stats are not particularly relevant. This is not new information.

And if it's about competing for multiple college championships, well, I guess we should trade a fifth for Matt Leinart and pick up Ken Dorsey too!

2KBack
04-23-2010, 02:15 PM
In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

Unless you are...
Tom Brady
Matt cassell
Tony Romo
Chad Henne
Carson Palmer
Matt Schaub
Kevin Kolb
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Jake Delhomme
Matt Hasselbeck
or Mark Bulger

All active starting QB's...All spent at least one season on the bench before getting a chance to start.

extralife
04-23-2010, 02:17 PM
Of those QBs, only Palmer and Rodgers were first rounders. Rodgers was sitting behind some guy named Brett Favre. Don't kid yourself.

2KBack
04-23-2010, 02:20 PM
Of those QBs, only Palmer and Rodgers were first rounders. Rodgers was sitting behind some guy named Brett Favre. Don't kid yourself.

how does that matter? Elsid said QB's can't sit and learn anymore...guess what, yes they can. unless we forget that cutler also spent most of his first season (and it is argued should have been all of it) on the bench.

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 02:22 PM
How so?

I would tend to disagree. A QB is one of the most likely draft picks to "expect" to carry a clipboard for a season or two.

You're obviously not too smart or knowledgeable... and probably sittin nice as an armchair GM.

Aaron Rodgers didn't start as the head of the offense until his 4th year. How did that turn out?

Again - idiots stay idiots. :rofl:

My bad c_lazy_r, I meant to quote the guy you quoted.

elsid13
04-23-2010, 02:23 PM
I totally agree with this statement. (the bolded)

However, my point was that picking a QB in the first round is no different than picking a corner, safety or DE. If they bust, they hurt the team. Period.

Unlike any other position, it very hard to replace a QB if he struggle. Coaches give them more time to find themselves then any other position and that hurt a team if they fail. Other positions coaches will be willing to quickly find a replacement no matter where they were drafted, QBs they will stick with hoping that they become great.

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 02:25 PM
Unlike any other position, it very hard to replace a QB if he struggle. Coaches give them more time to find themselves then any other position and that hurt a team if they fail. Other positions coaches will be willing to quickly find a replacement no matter where they were drafted, QBs they will stick with hoping that they become great.

This is for your dumbass


You're obviously not too smart or knowledgeable... and probably sittin nice as an armchair GM.

Aaron Rodgers didn't start as the head of the offense until his 4th year. How did that turn out?

Again - idiots stay idiots. :rofl:

elsid13
04-23-2010, 02:25 PM
how does that matter? Elsid said QB's can't sit and learn anymore...guess what, yes they can. unless we forget that cutler also spent most of his first season (and it is argued should have been all of it) on the bench.

Originally Posted by elsid13 View Post
In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 02:26 PM
In addition to Aaron Rodgers:

Philip Rivers didn't take over until his 3rd year.

elsid13 - you're an obvious moron.

2KBack
04-23-2010, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by elsid13 View Post
In the 80s, yes a QB could carry clipboard for a season or two. Today, the pressure is on and 1st round QB is expect to come in win (See Ryan,Flacco and Sanchez). If Orton struggle, the calls for Tebow will be out of control.

I think you are wrong. Some 1st round picks are expected to be saviors, top 10 QB selections are supposed to be centerpieces to a rebuild. By teams bad enough to be in the top 5 or 10 selections. This was a low 1st rounder, and not only that, the second 1st rounder used by the Broncos. There is no where near the same pressure in that scenario. The team saw WR as a more important selection than Tebow, evidenced by the fact that they Took a WR first. This is a perfect example of picking a guy with the intention of letting him develop.

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 02:31 PM
So we got Aaron Rodgers not taking over till year 4, Philip Rivers until year 3... and Rivers was the 4th pick in the draft... LOL @ you.

These are in years 2008 and 2006, respectively. Get with reality you dumbass. This is 2 of the top 5 QB's in the league.

Oh - and Schaub didn't take over an offense until year 4.

Top 10 QB.

c_lazy_r
04-23-2010, 02:32 PM
You're obviously not too smart or knowledgeable... and probably sittin nice as an armchair GM.

Aaron Rodgers didn't start as the head of the offense until his 4th year. How did that turn out?

Again - idiots stay idiots. :rofl:

My bad c_lazy_r, I meant to quote the guy you quoted.



You had me confused til that last line...;D

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 02:33 PM
You had me confused til that last line...;D

At least you were smart of to read the whole post, I'm not confident everyone would have done that. Hilarious!

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 02:35 PM
I don't know that they could put Tebow in right away even if they wanted to. Doing things like changing your throwing motion will take some time. I have only seen Tebow play a little and have no idea how good he is but I doubt he is in right away. That is unless people are overstating what he needs to work on.

Got to page two or three and look for the thread Science: Tim Tebow. It shows some of the changes he's already made.

elsid13
04-23-2010, 02:36 PM
In addition to Aaron Rodgers:

Philip Rivers didn't take over until his 3rd year.

elsid13 - you're an obvious moron.

As pointed out Rodgers had Favre in front of him, while River would have taken over much sooner if Brees hadn't suddenly found himself. As I stated before there is significant pressure for team to play 1st round QBs, especially with the recent success of Ryan, Flacco and Sanchez.

Really what value do you add to the board, beside running around and insulting people, that you don't agree with?

rastaman
04-23-2010, 02:36 PM
Tebow will replace Hillis. Josh has plans to add another 20Lbs on to Tebow to make him the first FB-QB threat in the red zone.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2010, 02:36 PM
Good grief...in the name of all things Tebow...will you guys be civil to each other.

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 02:43 PM
As pointed out Rodgers had Favre in front of him, while River would have taken over much sooner if Brees hadn't suddenly found himself. As I stated before there is significant pressure for team to play 1st round QBs, especially with the recent success of Ryan, Flacco and Sanchez.

Really what value do you add to the board, beside running around and insulting people, that you don't agree with?

lol there is no pressure to play 1st round QBs unless you NEED to (aka Lions). The Broncos are in no situation that they need to start Tebow right away - what Ryan/Flacco did is nothing new - there are always QBs starting their first year, why did you bring that up like it's something new? Jamarcus Russell? Matthew Stafford? Like I said, you're not very knowledgeable. Ryan and Flacco just happened to have success.

Sanchez's success? He was very raw coming out - he wasn't even supposed to start but they had no other choice. Sure you can give him credit for making the AFCC game - but any human who actually watches football saw that they had to create a game plan that was extremely limited due to Sanchez's inabilities.

He played horrible as the season wore on. Ryan had a sophomore slump with his accuracy problems.

You're generalizing with no logic at all. Every team is in a different situation - just because 2 QBs had success starting their first season doesn't mean another team will have pressure of starting a first round QB. Every situation is different.

What do I bring? Some actual discussion with reasoning and proof behind it.

outdoor_miner
04-23-2010, 02:46 PM
Good grief...in the name of all things Tebow...will you guys be civil to each other.

Hilarious!

extralife
04-23-2010, 02:48 PM
So we got Aaron Rodgers not taking over till year 4, Philip Rivers until year 3... and Rivers was the 4th pick in the draft... LOL @ you.

These are in years 2008 and 2006, respectively. Get with reality you dumbass. This is 2 of the top 5 QB's in the league.

Oh - and Schaub didn't take over an offense until year 4.

Top 10 QB.

Lets analyze this (though obviously you have no intention to seeking the truth):

Aaron Rodgers was thought to be a top five pick. He fell to 24, I think, to a team that had no thoughts of getting him. They got lucky he fell, and so they jumped. In front of Mr. Rodgers, they had a man named Brett Favre, a top 5-10 all time QB who was worshiped by people in and around Green Bay.

Phillip Rivers was taken because the CURRENT high draft pick QB of the team he was drafted by was seen as NOT DEVELOPING QUICKLY ENOUGH. Just sit on that for a while. Rivers was drafted because the Chargers WERE NOT patient with Drew Brees, which clearly does not support anything you have to say. Once they were both on the roster, Drew Brees became a top ten NFL QB and the Chargers were winning games. Drafting Philip Rivers was a <i>mistake</i>. And yet, Drew Brees was shipped out <i>anyway</i> after a time because of the clamor to get a first round QB on the field.

In Denver, our starting QB is a guy most fans hate or simply tolerate. He has never been a secure starting QB in the NFL. His numbers are average, his talent is below average, and his team finished last season 8-8 in a city that expects to win. Behind him now we have THE MOST HYPED COLLEGE PLAYER IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS, whom we traded up to acquire, and took higher than most people felt he should or even would (and there is a large difference between the two) go. And you're going to tell me there won't be any pressure to play the guy? Oh yeah, and lets not forget that a mere FOUR YEARS Ago in this VERY CITY we had a similar QB--mediocre guy, could do some things well, couldn't do some other things. Behind him we had a first round QB that we traded up for. The only difference is the incumbent starter wasn't coming off an 8-8 year. He was coming off a 13-3 year. And what happened? <i>Fans clamored for the rookie after two games, and he was in the lineup halfway through the season</i>.

Will Tebow end up starting games for us this season? I hope not. I think it's probably unlikely. But if you don't think there's going to be a lot of pressure on the team to get him into the lineup, you're nuts.

Popps
04-23-2010, 02:56 PM
Great point, Dukes.

I randomly made the Manning/Tebow numbers comparison in a post last night, as well.

Of course, not to say they're remotely similar with regards to mechanics, but to illiustrate that Tebow DID have success throwing the ball. He wasn't just a scrambling QB.

For the record, McDaniels believes Florida runs an offense that asks a lot of a QB, and that his college experience will leave him well prepared to begin training in our offense.

Mr.Meanie
04-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Lets analyze this (though obviously you have no intention to seeking the truth):

Aaron Rodgers was thought to be a top five pick. He fell to 24, I think, to a team that had no thoughts of getting him. They got lucky he fell, and so they jumped. In front of Mr. Rodgers, they had a man named Brett Favre, a top 5-10 all time QB who was worshiped by people in and around Green Bay.

Phillip Rivers was taken because the CURRENT high draft pick QB of the team he was drafted by was seen as NOT DEVELOPING QUICKLY ENOUGH. Just sit on that for a while. Rivers was drafted because the Chargers WERE NOT patient with Drew Brees, which clearly does not support anything you have to say. Once they were both on the roster, Drew Brees became a top ten NFL QB and the Chargers were winning games. Drafting Philip Rivers was a <i>mistake</i>. And yet, Drew Brees was shipped out <i>anyway</i> after a time because of the clamor to get a first round QB on the field.

In Denver, our starting QB is a guy most fans hate or simply tolerate. He has never been a secure starting QB in the NFL. His numbers are average, his talent is below average, and his team finished last season 8-8 in a city that expects to win. Behind him now we have THE MOST HYPED COLLEGE PLAYER IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS, whom we traded up to acquire, and took higher than most people felt he should or even would (and there is a large difference between the two) go. And you're going to tell me there won't be any pressure to play the guy? Oh yeah, and lets not forget that a mere FOUR YEARS Ago in this VERY CITY we had a similar QB--mediocre guy, could do some things well, couldn't do some other things. Behind him we had a first round QB that we traded up for. The only difference is the incumbent starter wasn't coming off an 8-8 year. He was coming off a 13-3 year. And what happened? <i>Fans clamored for the rookie after two games, and he was in the lineup halfway through the season</i>.

Will Tebow end up starting games for us this season? I hope not. I think it's probably unlikely. But if you don't think there's going to be a lot of pressure on the team to get him into the lineup, you're nuts.

I think it's pretty well established by now that McD couldn't care less what people say or if there is pressure on him...

MVPlaya
04-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Lets analyze this (though obviously you have no intention to seeking the truth):

Aaron Rodgers was thought to be a top five pick. He fell to 24, I think, to a team that had no thoughts of getting him. They got lucky he fell, and so they jumped. In front of Mr. Rodgers, they had a man named Brett Favre, a top 5-10 all time QB who was worshiped by people in and around Green Bay.

Phillip Rivers was taken because the CURRENT high draft pick QB of the team he was drafted by was seen as NOT DEVELOPING QUICKLY ENOUGH. Just sit on that for a while. Rivers was drafted because the Chargers WERE NOT patient with Drew Brees, which clearly does not support anything you have to say. Once they were both on the roster, Drew Brees became a top ten NFL QB and the Chargers were winning games. Drafting Philip Rivers was a <i>mistake</i>. And yet, Drew Brees was shipped out <i>anyway</i> after a time because of the clamor to get a first round QB on the field.

In Denver, our starting QB is a guy most fans hate or simply tolerate. He has never been a secure starting QB in the NFL. His numbers are average, his talent is below average, and his team finished last season 8-8 in a city that expects to win. Behind him now we have THE MOST HYPED COLLEGE PLAYER IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS, whom we traded up to acquire, and took higher than most people felt he should or even would (and there is a large difference between the two) go. And you're going to tell me there won't be any pressure to play the guy? Oh yeah, and lets not forget that a mere FOUR YEARS Ago in this VERY CITY we had a similar QB--mediocre guy, could do some things well, couldn't do some other things. Behind him we had a first round QB that we traded up for. The only difference is the incumbent starter wasn't coming off an 8-8 year. He was coming off a 13-3 year. And what happened? <i>Fans clamored for the rookie after two games, and he was in the lineup halfway through the season</i>.

Will Tebow end up starting games for us this season? I hope not. I think it's probably unlikely. But if you don't think there's going to be a lot of pressure on the team to get him into the lineup, you're nuts.

My general point is that EVERY situation is different - and that you can't take out Matt Ryan and Flacco's success and consider it the rule. Teams start rookie QB's all the time. However - this is not the reason to start rookie QBs - it's all in the situation. For all we know Kyle Orton can have a spectacular year.

Now - I am in no denial that there will be pressure for Tebow to start... from the fans and media that is. This is completely unavoidable - just because it's Tim Tebow.

However, if you're saying there is pressure for him to start because Orton - then I'll say that Quinn is right there behind him too.

It'll all come down to winning/losing games... but starting Tebow will be under pressure and I'm in NO denial of that. But do you REALLY think McDaniels and the organization really cares?

SJ Bronco
04-23-2010, 03:13 PM
You guys are changing my mind, keep with the positivity, it's helping my state of mind here.

mhgaffney
04-23-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm keeping an open mind, but

it's way too early to be talking about legends.

Gort
04-24-2010, 02:56 AM
Good grief...in the name of all things Tebow...will you guys be civil to each other.

this is what it must be like to be raiders fans. except,

1) this sort of drama happens every offseason for raiders fans
2) raiders fans access their forums using stolen computers

Rausch 2.0
04-24-2010, 03:12 AM
Teh next person to compare Tai-bow to Elway...

:twitch:

BroncoBuff
04-24-2010, 03:23 AM
He's the highest rated passer in the history of SEC football. He was easily a better passer than Peyton Manning or Matt Stafford or Tim Couch ... And yet NFL evalautors for some reason aren't sold on Tebow. Couch and Russell are two bona fide NFL busts, even though pro football talent evaluators couldn't usher them into the league fast enough. Yet these same talent evaluators harbor grave doubts about the ability of the greatest and most efficient passer in SEC history to pass the ball at the next level.

Great stuff.

BroncoBuff
04-24-2010, 11:50 PM
I think the notion that Clady is devalued with a lefty QB is overstated.

Garcia disagrees with you. Besides, he's a Shanahan offensive player ... he's on the block now. :~ohyah!:


Ad BUMP for the great article.

ZONA
04-24-2010, 11:58 PM
Excellent post Dukes. Good find.

extralife
04-25-2010, 12:16 AM
Great stuff.

Graham Harrell tore up the Big 12, lets bring him in--he's probably better than Sam Bradford, right?

TomServo
04-25-2010, 12:35 AM
my daughter is about to go from 8th grade to high school. i told her tebow will be ready to start QB when she is a junior. Perspective anyone?

Circle Orange
04-25-2010, 04:27 PM
Credit Garcia for posting in another thread. Just thought it was worth it's own thread.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html
A tale of six quarterbacks

The glittering genius of the Cold, Hard Football Facts is that we admire only numbers and productivity.

We put little stock in a player’s pedigree. And we put even less stock in the “pundits” and their outdated weapon of choice, the opinion, which bounces off the steely armor of our analysis so helplessly, like nothing but little pebbles of pigskin overwhelmed by our M1A1 Abrams tank of truth.

So it is today that we dive into one of the biggest stories of the 2010 NFL draft by looking at the college productivity of six legendary quarterbacks here in the modern pass-happy era.

Six Big-Name College Quarterbacks
Player Comp. Att. Pct. Yards YPA TD INT Rating*
Player A 851 1,354 62.85 11,201 8.27 90 33 100.93
Player B 825 1,232 66.96 8,772 7.12 76 37 95.60
Player C 841 1,383 60.81 10,286 7.44 84 36 93.15
Player D 493 797 61.86 6,625 8.31 52 21 99.04
Player E 564 986 57.20 7,731 7.84 51 33 85.72
Player F 661 985 67.11 9,286 9.43 88 15 120.72


The numbers aren't even close. One player dominates. One player leaps screaming off the list, like Horshack on "Welcome Back Kotter" when he knew the answer to a question: “Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!”

That dominant individual, of course, is Player F. This quarterback:
•Was the most accurate of any of these six passers.
•Dominated the average per attempt category – our favorite number – by better than 1 yard per attempt over the No. 2 player on the list.
•Boasts a passer rating so sky high it defies description, nearly 20 full points better than the No. 2 player on the list.
Elsewhere, Player F was No. 2 in total TD passes – but easily No. 1 in TD pass percentage. Player F threw a TD on 8.9 percent of his pass attempts – easily outpacing Player A, who threw a touchdown on 6.6 percent of his pass attempts.

Finally, Player F protected the ball much better than any of the other quarterbacks on this list. Player F threw an interception on just 1.52 percent of attempts – easily outpacing Player C, who threw an interception on 2.60 percent of attempts. And you know what we've always told you: quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. Quarterbacks who don't throw picks win games.

Dying to know who they are, arentcha? Well, the numbers represent the college career stats of six of the greatest quarterbacks in the modern history of the SEC. Here goes:
•Player A is Peyton Manning. He played for Tennessee in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1998 draft.
•Player B is Tim Couch. He played for Kentucky in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft.
•Player C is Eli Manning. He played for Ole Miss in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2004 draft.
•Player D is JaMarcus Russell. He played for LSU in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2007 draft.
•Player E is Matt Stafford. He played for Georgia in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 draft.
•And, finally, Player F is Tim Tebow. He played for Florida and the SEC and will be far from the No. 1 overall pick in the 2010 draft.
The list tells us many things.

First, it tells us that the SEC has dominated the draft in recent years, as you probably already knew. But five guys at the most important position on the field taken No. 1 overall in a 12-year stretch is a remarkable accomplishment, even by the lofty standards of the dominant conference in college football.

Second, it tells us that NFL talent evaluators are out of their ****ing minds.

Tebow, as you know, is the biggest question mark in the 2010 draft among the pigskin punditistas. He's the highest rated passer in the history of SEC football. He was easily a better passer than Peyton Manning or Matt Stafford or Tim Couch or any of the guys whose ability to pass was never really questioned by NFL talent analysts.

And yet NFL evalautors for some reason aren't sold on Tebow. Couch and Russell are two bona fide NFL busts, even though pro football talent evaluators couldn't usher them into the league fast enough. Yet these same talent evaluators harbor grave doubts about the ability of the greatest and most efficient passer in SEC history to pass the ball at the next level.
Consider, Charley Casserly, the longtime NFL executive turned NFL Network analyst, who was on the air Thursday telling the world that Tebow will go no higher than the fourth round of the draft next month.

Other executives seem obsessed by the trivia over Tebow’s mechanics, while overlooking the rather irrefutable fact that he dominated college football like no player in memory and despite the fact that he was, by any objective measure, a much better passer than Couch, Russell, Stafford, and either of the Manning brothers.

Tebow not only passed the ball far more effectively than any of these No. 1 overall picks. It pays to remember that, in his spare time, he set the SEC career record for rushing touchdowns. Oh, and he won a Heisman Trophy and two national titles. Other than that, he didn't do much.

The anti-Tebow crowd will argue, weakly, that he was surrounded by greater talent than those other passers.

The anti-Tebow crowd, of course, has its head up its ass.

Let’s look at Peyton Manning. Last we remember, he played with not one, not two but three receivers taken in the top two rounds of the draft: Joey Kent, Marcus Nash and Peerless Price. His team was so loaded with talent that it won the national title the year after he left.

JaMarcus Russell played with arguably the most talented teams of the past decade. They won national titles in 2003 and 2007 and he watched as 34 of his LSU teammates were grabbed in the NFL draft.

Stafford? Well, Georgia is a prolific pipeline of NFL talent. Stafford was one of three starting offensive players from the 2008 Bulldogs taken in the first 50 picks of the 2009 draft (Knowshon Moreno, Mohamed Massaquoi).

Ole Miss is hardly the SEC’s best hotbed of talent. But almost the entire offensive line that protected Eli Manning was good enough to earn a shot in the NFL, including not one but two of his centers: Ben Claxton (2003 draft) and Chris Spencer (2005), one of a small handful of centers ever taken in the first round of the NFL draft.

Couch? Sure, he didn't have much around him. In fact, he's one of just three first-round draft picks to come out of Kentucky in the last 25 years. But in any case, his passing numbers pale in comparison to those produced by Tebow.

The anti-Tebow crowd could also throw out the old David Klingler argument. You know, "anybody can put up big stats in the college game."

But Tebow didn't just put up big stats ... he put up supremely efficient stats. He was more accurate, and produced more big passing plays, and was more likely to put the ball in the end zone, and more likely to keep it out of the hands of opposing defenders, than any of the recent collection of No. 1 passing phenoms to come out of the SEC.

Tebow was, by any measure, a better player, a better quarterback and, yes, a better passer than any of these No. 1 picks.

We understand that college success does not translate to NFL success. The long history of Heisman winners turned NFL busts underscores that argument.

However, in the gamble that is the NFL draft, we'll roll the dice on the proven and unmatched passing talent of Tebow rather than on the sorry track record of pro football talent evaluators.

To be fair, everyone wasn't sold on Jamarcus Russell, and he was hardly a consensus pick. Legit scouts and gms know that the qb process is a crap shoot at times, but they draft and hope for the best.

But saying Tebow is a better passer than Stafford seems like a stretch, to me.

R8R H8R
04-25-2010, 05:59 PM
I think it's pretty well established by now that McD couldn't care less what people say or if there is pressure on him...

Maybe the best post of the thread, imo. He's going to play or sit Tebow based on what he's see's on the practice field. He has proven to me, anyway, that he cares little for public opinion; right or wrong.

MaloCS
04-25-2010, 06:52 PM
don't bother. that guy's an asshat. just put him on ignore. i did long ago.

the people who don't like Tebow have a problem with his religion. that's the simple truth. if he were a Buddhist, or Hindu, or Sikh, they wouldn't utter a peep about his beliefs. because he's a Christian and is willing to talk about his beliefs when asked, they hate him and they always will. if these folks were truly atheists, they wouldn't care one bit what Tebow's beliefs were. his beliefs don't affect them in any way. but they are not atheists. they are Jesus haters. so let's call them what they are...

the Jesus haters hate Tebow for reasons that have nothing to do with whether he will be a good QB in the NFL.

I agree. ^5

Archer81
04-25-2010, 06:55 PM
The next 12-15 years are going to be fun around here.

Can't wait.

:Broncos:

MaloCS
04-25-2010, 07:04 PM
my daughter is about to go from 8th grade to high school. i told her tebow will be ready to start QB when she is a junior. Perspective anyone?

A safe, play it close to the ear perspective says your logic is accurate. BUT... and here it comes, Tebow needs to start sometime in the 2010 season.

Despite the party line coming out of Dove Valley the Broncos ARE rebuilding. They have a new offense and still have to build a new defense without relying so much on aging free agents. Timbow needs to get serious playing time and take his lumps now instead of later. This way he is ready to blossom in 2 years instead of just getting started in 2 years.

If the saying "where there's smoke there's fire" is accurate then the actions of both Shanny and McDingleberry should point to the fact that offenses are harder to build then defenses. Why else would both coaches focus on the offensive side of the ball first and foremost before spending serious time on the defensive side of the ball. If you look at both Shanny and McD they loaded up the Broncos offense with young talent while the defense got aging band aids. My thinking is that once the "O" is constructed the "D" will get it's fair share of talent. It's a shame that Shanny didn't get the chance to start building the defense since he just completed building the offense.

Oh well, I like the Tebow pick. The guy has "IT". He's a gamer, a winner and a leader. I could care less about how sexy the guy looks when he throws the football. All I care about is if the ball gets to the intended receiver. There are time I look at Phylis Rivers and say, "DAMN! That guy has one ugly ass release!". Regardless, Phylis just seems to win (at least in the regular season) and raise the level of play of his supporting cast.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2010, 07:15 PM
Graham Harrell tore up the Big 12, lets bring him in--he's probably better than Sam Bradford, right?

If that's all you took from the article, I don't know what to say ... maybe read it again?

Bronco Boy
04-25-2010, 07:32 PM
The two college stats with the biggest correlation to NFL success are number of starts and completion percentage. Judging by those, Tebow will be a franchise QB.

Circle Orange
04-25-2010, 07:52 PM
Teh next person to compare Tai-bow to Elway...

:twitch:

Not to worry!

Here is the growing list of people proclaimed to be "Another Elway" at some time or another. And please note, one is a baseball player!

Yes, the foolishness knows no bounds! And if you find yourself going WTF at some of these names, just remember, they don't even need to be athletic!
Any vague resemblance will do. (like the fact they line up behind center and handle the ball, etc).

Vick, Stafford, McNabb, Cunningham, Boller, McNown, Akili Smith, Cutler, Quinn, Tebow, Romo, J. Russell, Colt McCoy, Eli Manning, Vince Young, Favre, Bradford, Rothlesberger, Jake Locker, Mat Leinart, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Bledsoe, Joey Harrington, Bradley Van Pelt, Sanchez, Rick Mirer, Aaron Rogers, Joe Flacco, Ryan Leaf, Trent Edwards, Kyle Boller, Josh Freeman, Tom Savage, Matt Barkley, Matthew Stafford, Alex Smith, Zac Lee, Billy Joe Tolliver, Kordell Stewart, Adrian McPherson (you get the idea by now).

Anyway, there's another 100 or so I didn't mention...it's a crowded field! Seems like any cluck that move around and throw is the 'next elway.' I'm sure by next year there will be five more 'elways.'

For a guy who's been retired for over a decade, John's pretty damn prolific.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 08:28 PM
Florida is the only team with elite athletes?

If you don't believe that Florida had better athletes at every position compared to 95% of their opponents for the last 4 years, you don't know much about college football.

Archer81
04-25-2010, 08:38 PM
If you don't believe that Florida had better athletes at every position compared to 95% of their opponents for the last 4 years, you don't know much about college football.


In a conference that has won BCS championships 5 times in the last 10 years.

:Broncos:

Kid A
04-25-2010, 08:44 PM
If you don't believe that Florida had better athletes at every position compared to 95% of their opponents for the last 4 years, you don't know much about college football.

Florida has been loaded with talent, but better athletes at every position against 95% of their opponents? Not even close.

The SEC is by far the most difficult and talented conference. While Florida may have been the cream of the crop during Tebow's tenure, they faced equal to better talent at numerous positions constantly over the years. Bama, Georgia, Tenneessee, LSU, Auburn...most these schools have sent 1st round picks to the NFL in recent years. Tim may have played on the best team, but he was playing many of the next best teams.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 08:51 PM
Sure. You are talkig about the SEC which has won roughly half of the National Championships since the start of the BCS. It's always the number 1 conference or number 2. It certainly has the best defenses every year.

Last 4 NCs

Florida
LSU
Florida
Alabama

And honestly Florida should have played Alabama again in the NC game.


While I agree that the SEC is most likely the premier conference in College football, I will contend that most of the teams Florida faced the last 4 years are no where near as good as they are from Top to bottom.

One of the things that makes college football so much different than the NFL is the fact that colleges can recruit the very best players in the country...meaning the rich always get richer. This is the case with Florida.

SEC has the best defenses each year? Not so fast:

Tebow Years:

2009:

1. Alabama---Alabama trucked Tebow and Florida
2. Nebraska
3. Florida
4. PSU
5. Ohio State

2008:

1. USC
2. TCU
3. Boise State
4. Penn State
5. Florida-Won title

2007:

1. Ohio State
2. Virginia Tech
3. Utah
4. USC
5. Kansas

2006:

1. Virginia Tech
2. Ohio State
3. Wisconsin
4. LSU
5. TCU

SEC: 4 top 5 defenses--2 of which were Florida
Big Ten: 6 top 5 defenses

The SEC is good...but they are good because of Florida and LSU...and last year Alabama. Most of their teams are no better or worse than other conference teams.

Plus, you are totally discounting the fact that Tebow ran an offense that is perfect for him...the spread option offense. There are a ton of throws that are screen passes and shovel passes. Both passes are high percentage stat builders and when you use those plays with players that are faster than every other player on the field...good things happen.

Again, the huge difference between Tebow and the other QB's on the OP's list: Tebor ran the spread option...those other guys didn't. Totally different offenses.

Ty Detmer broke every record in NCAA history, as did Timmy Chang, as did Colt Brennen, etc...

Amazing college stats don't equate to success in the NFL. Tebow will never be a successful starter in the NFL. He isn't accurate and has average arm strength.

Again...watch his tape from the Senior Bowl...

2KBack
04-25-2010, 08:55 PM
While I agree that the SEC is most likely the premier conference in College football, I will contend that most of the teams Florida faced the last 4 years are no where near as good as they are from Top to bottom.

One of the things that makes college football so much different than the NFL is the fact that colleges can recruit the very best players in the country...meaning the rich always get richer. This is the case with Florida.

SEC has the best defenses each year? Not so fast:

Tebow Years:

2009:

1. Alabama---Alabama trucked Tebow and Florida
2. Nebraska
3. Florida
4. PSU
5. Ohio State

2008:

1. USC
2. TCU
3. Boise State
4. Penn State
5. Florida-Won title

2007:

1. Ohio State
2. Virginia Tech
3. Utah
4. USC
5. Kansas

2006:

1. Virginia Tech
2. Ohio State
3. Wisconsin
4. LSU
5. TCU

SEC: 4 top 5 defenses--2 of which were Florida
Big Ten: 6 top 5 defenses

The SEC is good...but they are good because of Florida and LSU...and last year Alabama. Most of their teams are no better or worse than other conference teams.

Plus, you are totally discounting the fact that Tebow ran an offense that is perfect for him...the spread option offense. There are a ton of throws that are screen passes and shovel passes. Both passes are high percentage stat builders and when you use those plays with players that are faster than every other player on the field...good things happen.

Again, the huge difference between Tebow and the other QB's on the OP's list: Tebor ran the spread option...those other guys didn't. Totally different offenses.

Ty Detmer broke every record in NCAA history, as did Timmy Chang, as did Colt Brennen, etc...

Amazing college stats don't equate to success in the NFL. Tebow will never be a successful starter in the NFL. He isn't accurate and has average arm strength.

Again...watch his tape from the Senior Bowl...

You are going to use college rankings to argue that the talent and opponents talent in college football needs to be taken in to account in an evaluation? That doesn't sound a bit off to you? You know, using rankings that don't take into account the strength of the opponent.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 08:55 PM
In a conference that has won BCS championships 5 times in the last 10 years.

:Broncos:

The conference didn't win the titles...teams from the conference did. Big difference.

I'm guessing if there was a playoff in college football, those results would be a lot different.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 08:59 PM
You are going to use college rankings to argue that the talent and opponents talent in college football needs to be taken in to account in an evaluation? That doesn't sound a bit off to you? You know, using rankings that don't take into account the strength of the opponent.

What else? Anything else would just be opinion.


The guy said the SEC always have the best defenses and I proved that to be false.


I did so by using data. These are stats that have been compiled on the field. People make the SEC out to be a completely unstoppable machine. There are plenty of other teams in college football that can compete with the SEC...

Hell...Texas almost beat Alabama with a true freshman backup QB...

broncogary
04-25-2010, 09:07 PM
Are you really going to put Armanti Edwards and John Skelton in there? john Skelton played at Fordam from crying out loud. I didnt even know they had a football team and many from outside the NY area probably never heard of the school.

Tell that to Vince Lombardi. :rofl:

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 09:10 PM
Florida has been loaded with talent, but better athletes at every position against 95% of their opponents? Not even close.

The SEC is by far the most difficult and talented conference. While Florida may have been the cream of the crop during Tebow's tenure, they faced equal to better talent at numerous positions constantly over the years. Bama, Georgia, Tenneessee, LSU, Auburn...most these schools have sent 1st round picks to the NFL in recent years. Tim may have played on the best team, but he was playing many of the next best teams.

Auburn-Last year was 8-5 and should have lost to Northwestern, who because of an injured placekicker, missed 3 easy FG's in a bowl game. Very average team. A year earlier they were 5-7, A year earlier they were 9-4...pretty average actually.

Tennessee-Last year was 7-6, year before that they were 5-7, a year before that they were 10-4...really...really average team.

LSU-9-4, 8-5, 12-2---Won the title in 2007, a year that could have seen 5-8 teams via for the title...definately a year that needed playoffs.

Georgia--8-5, 10-3, 11-2---Good team but in no way great.

Bama--Before Saban--terrible...after Saban...damned good. They only team that could stack up to Florida in the past two years.


When you actually look at these teams...most of them are pretty good, but no where near Florida's talent level.

Archer81
04-25-2010, 09:11 PM
The conference didn't win the titles...teams from the conference did. Big difference.

I'm guessing if there was a playoff in college football, those results would be a lot different.


Possibly. But considering there is no playoff system, that is not relevant. At the end of the year, LSU (2x), Florida (2x) and Alabama have won national titles. The SEC has some of the premier talent in the country concentrated in it. You get good football out there. You have had bowl game appearances for Tennessee, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Georgia, South Carolina and Mississippi. Its not a slouch conference. So I do not buy the "he had a good team around him"...he had to be pretty good as well to win consistently in his conference.

:Broncos:

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 09:15 PM
Possibly. But considering there is no playoff system, that is not relevant. At the end of the year, LSU (2x), Florida (2x) and Alabama have won national titles. The SEC has some of the premier talent in the country concentrated in it. You get good football out there. You have had bowl game appearances for Tennessee, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Georgia, South Carolina and Mississippi. Its not a slouch conference. So I do not buy the "he had a good team around him"...he had to be pretty good as well to win consistently in his conference.

:Broncos:


Are you actually trying to tell me that Florida was playing against teams on the same level as them...top to bottom?

Archer81
04-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Are you actually trying to tell me that Florida was playing against teams on the same level as them...top to bottom?


Are you trying to tell me the rest of the SEC is talent deficient simply because Florida plays in that conference?

Is it a coincidence that the last two teams to beat Florida have been SEC East Alabama and SEC West Ole Miss?

:Broncos:

2KBack
04-25-2010, 09:31 PM
What else? Anything else would just be opinion.


The guy said the SEC always have the best defenses and I proved that to be false.


I did so by using data. These are stats that have been compiled on the field. People make the SEC out to be a completely unstoppable machine. There are plenty of other teams in college football that can compete with the SEC...

Hell...Texas almost beat Alabama with a true freshman backup QB...

An opinion like...Florida has better athletes at every position than 95% of teams in the NCAA.

It would seem the data you are using to claim that the SEC doesn't have the best defenses would also claim that Florida doesn't have the best athletes.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 09:41 PM
Are you trying to tell me the rest of the SEC is talent deficient simply because Florida plays in that conference?

Is it a coincidence that the last two teams to beat Florida have been SEC East Alabama and SEC West Ole Miss?

:Broncos:

Thanks for answering my question::)

I didn't say the SEC was deficient in talent and said they are the premier conference in the country...with that said...

Florida for the past 4 years has been the class of the conference. Alabama crushed Florida last year, thanks to Saban and his ability to recruit. The Ole Miss win was a fluke...proven by Florida running the table and winning the title.

Let's remove the defense and special teams from Florida and just take a look at their offense. Because that is what we are really talking about. Florida's dynamic offense and what it forces defenses to do...

They are loaded at every single skill position including TE. Every player causes a nightmare for defense's...

Couple that with the spread option offense.

This combination of athletes and scheme has been deadly.

Do you actually know anything about the spread option attack? LBers and safeties are manipulated almost every single play, creating HUGE passing windows making it easy for weak armed, inaccurate passers to put up huge numbers.

Alex Smith won a Heisman and became the #1 overall pick the next year running Meyers offense in Utah...with very average athletes...how is he doing in the NFL?

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 09:45 PM
An opinion like...Florida has better athletes at every position than 95% of teams in the NCAA.

It would seem the data you are using to claim that the SEC doesn't have the best defenses would also claim that Florida doesn't have the best athletes.

Sorry, technically 87.27%.

That was Tebow's winning% in college.

Archer81
04-25-2010, 09:47 PM
Thanks for answering my question::)

I didn't say the SEC was deficient in talent and said they are the premier conference in the country...with that said...

Florida for the past 4 years has been the class of the conference. Alabama crushed Florida last year, thanks to Saban and his ability to recruit. The Ole Miss win was a fluke...proven by Florida running the table and winning the title.

Let's remove the defense and special teams from Florida and just take a look at their offense. Because that is what we are really talking about. Florida's dynamic offense and what it forces defenses to do...

They are loaded at every single skill position including TE. Every player causes a nightmare for defense's...

Couple that with the spread option offense.

This combination of athletes and scheme has been deadly.

Do you actually know anything about the spread option attack? LBers and safeties are manipulated almost every single play, creating HUGE passing windows making it easy for weak armed, inaccurate passers to put up huge numbers.

Alex Smith won a Heisman and became the #1 overall pick the next year running Meyers offense in Utah...with very average athletes...how is he doing in the NFL?


You typed alot of nonsense to say nothing. You would have been better off just not responding.

What does Alex Smith have to do with the talent level of the SEC?

:Broncos:

2KBack
04-25-2010, 09:47 PM
Sorry, technically 87.27%.

That was Tebow's winning% in college.

meaning that they NEVER beat anyone with equal or better talent, and NEVER lost to anyone that may have some inferior talent.

Come on dude, Tebow may crash and burn, but you are saying some ridiculous things.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 09:57 PM
meaning that they NEVER beat anyone with equal or better talent, and NEVER lost to anyone that may have some inferior talent.

Come on dude, Tebow may crash and burn, but you are saying some ridiculous things.

My point is...

1. Most of the wins Florida got were against teams that were not as good as they were. Is that a stretch?

2. Tebow played in an offensive system that is simply not used in the NFL.

3. Tebow was surrounded by the very best skill position players for that offense in the country. 3 years as a starter, Florida was in the top 4 in offense twice and top 10 once.


Do you actually think Tebow will run the spread option in the NFL and/or do you think he will garner the same results he had in college running a pro style attack?

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 10:03 PM
You typed alot of nonsense to say nothing. You would have been better off just not responding.

What does Alex Smith have to do with the talent level of the SEC?

:Broncos:

Apparently reading comprehension just isn't your cup of tea...


Alex Smith ran the same offense in college that Tebow ran...under the same coach.

Smith won a Heisman and put up similar numbers his senior year.

Smith was drafted #1 overall and has been a massive bust.

Both players are a product of the same offense and in their pro careers will forever be adversely affected by it.

Archer81
04-25-2010, 10:13 PM
Apparently reading comprehension just isn't your cup of tea...


Alex Smith ran the same offense in college that Tebow ran...under the same coach.

Smith won a Heisman and put up similar numbers his senior year.

Smith was drafted #1 overall and has been a massive bust.

Both players are a product of the same offense and in their pro careers will forever be adversely affected by it.


2009 Mark Ingram Alabama RB
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma QB
2007 Tim Tebow Florida QB
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California RB
2004 Matt Leinart Southern California QB
2003 Jason White Oklahoma QB
2002 Carson Palmer Southern California QB
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska QB
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State QB
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin RB

So...where is Alex Smith on this list?

26 389 587 66.3 5203 47 8 286 1072 15 Alex Smith Career college stats.

GP COMP ATT % YRDS TDS INTS rush att rush yds tds

55 985 661 67.1 9286 88 15 53 692 2947 57 Tim Tebow Career college stats

GP Att Comp % yds tds ints sacks rush att rush yards rush tds


You are handicapping Tebow because Smith to this point has failed. That is a weak argument. Looking at their stats, Tebow clearly had a more dominant career, started more games and was just generally a better player.

:Broncos:

2KBack
04-25-2010, 10:16 PM
My point is...

1. Most of the wins Florida got were against teams that were not as good as they were. Is that a stretch?

2. Tebow played in an offensive system that is simply not used in the NFL.

3. Tebow was surrounded by the very best skill position players for that offense in the country. 3 years as a starter, Florida was in the top 4 in offense twice and top 10 once.


Do you actually think Tebow will run the spread option in the NFL and/or do you think he will garner the same results he had in college running a pro style attack?

Couldn't say. Tim Tebow ran the offense that he was told to run, you can't fault him for that. Now he has a new offense to run, and we will see the results.

You like to mention Alex Smith a lot because they were both Meyer QB's. You have to admit they are both completely different kinds of QB's correct? They were different types of players playing in similar systems, just because they were both successful in that system, doesn't mean neither of them will be successful in different systems. Let's consider a QB that has been successful in the NFL, let's use donovan Mcnabb, since they have at least a passing similarity. I'm confidant that McNabb would have put up great numbers in Urban Myers system. Yet he has also done very well in his pro-system.

Do you see what i am saying? Success in one system does not mean automatic fail in another system.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 10:22 PM
2009 Mark Ingram Alabama RB
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma QB
2007 Tim Tebow Florida QB
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California RB
2004 Matt Leinart Southern California QB
2003 Jason White Oklahoma QB
2002 Carson Palmer Southern California QB
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska QB
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State QB
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin RB

So...where is Alex Smith on this list?

26 389 587 66.3 5203 47 8 286 1072 15 Alex Smith Career college stats.

GP COMP ATT % YRDS TDS INTS rush att rush yds tds

55 985 661 67.1 9286 88 15 53 692 2947 57 Tim Tebow Career college stats

GP Att Comp % yds tds ints sacks rush att rush yards rush tds


You are handicapping Tebow because Smith to this point has failed. That is a weak argument. Looking at their stats, Tebow clearly had a more dominant career, started more games and was just generally a better player.

:Broncos:

Totally boned it...he was 4th in Heisman voting...for whatever reason, I though he won it...

Name one spread option quarterback that has been successful in the NFL. One...just one.

Again...I bring up Smith because he ran THE SAME OFFENSE as Tebow...that is the link. That is the reason Smith had success in college and that is the reason Tebow had success in college. I can't make it any clearer than that. Holy S__T!

Tebow also had Meyer for 4 years and Smith had Meyer for 1. See the difference?

To summarize:

I am handicapping Tebow because:

1. He played in a college style spread option offense
2. He had a terrible Senior Bowl
3. He had a bad pro day
4. He has an average arm
5. He has terrible mechanics

The OP has the nerve to compare Tim Tebow to Peyton Manning. The two players couldn't be anymore different from one another.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 10:26 PM
Couldn't say. Tim Tebow ran the offense that he was told to run, you can't fault him for that. Now he has a new offense to run, and we will see the results.

You like to mention Alex Smith a lot because they were both Meyer QB's. You have to admit they are both completely different kinds of QB's correct? They were different types of players playing in similar systems, just because they were both successful in that system, doesn't mean neither of them will be successful in different systems. Let's consider a QB that has been successful in the NFL, let's use donovan Mcnabb, since they have at least a passing similarity. I'm confidant that McNabb would have put up great numbers in Urban Myers system. Yet he has also done very well in his pro-system.

Do you see what i am saying? Success in one system does not mean automatic fail in another system.

Smith and Tebow are very similar actually. Smith throws the ball better than Tebow and it's not even close.

Donavon McNabb can and always has been able to throw a football. The same can't be said about Tebow.

Please....give me one NFL quarterback that used to run a spread option in college and has been successful in the NFL...

2KBack
04-25-2010, 10:30 PM
Smith and Tebow are very similar actually. Smith throws the ball better than Tebow and it's not even close.

Donavon McNabb can and always has been able to throw a football. The same can't be said about Tebow.

Please....give me one NFL quarterback that used to run a spread option in college and has been successful in the NFL...

I'm afraid I don't know all the QB's that have run a spread option in college. If you do, I will be impressed.

SureShot
04-25-2010, 10:35 PM
Totally boned it...he was 4th in Heisman voting...for whatever reason, I though he won it...

Name one spread option quarterback that has been successful in the NFL. One...just one.



To be fair the spread option didnt take off in major college football until the last decade. Not a large enough sample imo.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 10:39 PM
I'm afraid I don't know all the QB's that have run a spread option in college. If you do, I will be impressed.


There is 1 current starter in the NFL that has run the spread option in college...1.

Vince Young.

Young has a stronger arm than Tebow...and is much faster.

Young has absolutely struggled in the NFL posting a 72.3 passer rating. And Alex Smith, another notable spread option QB has a 69.2 career passer rating.

Every other spread option QB in the NFL is either a backup to the backup or playing WR/RB.

Matt Jones
Michael Robinson
Dennis Dixon
Pat White

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 10:40 PM
To be fair the spread option didnt take off in major college football until the last decade. Not a large enough sample imo.

I didn't think so...

snowspot66
04-25-2010, 10:51 PM
I didn't think so...

Vince Young is the biggest name you bring up and he's been labeled mentally soft to say the least. Seems to me that's a pretty small sample size.

The odds of any QB succeeding to the level of a top NFL QB are exceptionally small no matter the system they played in college. The system is as irrelevant as the school. If they have the measurables, and Tebow does, then it all depends on what happens in the mind when the ball is snapped.

Nobody can measure that unfortunately.

2KBack
04-25-2010, 10:55 PM
There is 1 current starter in the NFL that has run the spread option in college...1.

Vince Young.

Young has a stronger arm than Tebow...and is much faster.

Young has absolutely struggled in the NFL posting a 72.3 passer rating. And Alex Smith, another notable spread option QB has a 69.2 career passer rating.

Every other spread option QB in the NFL is either a backup to the backup or playing WR/RB.

Matt Jones
Michael Robinson
Dennis Dixon
Pat White

From what I can gather, a whole 7 schools run the spread option, fewer still are schools known for recruiting the best players. When you consider the odds of being drafted...and then being successful, it doesn't surprise me at all that the success of these players hasn't been great as of yet. All of these players have been drafted in the last 5-6 years as well. That's not much of an indictment yet.

I shall repeat myself. Success in one system does not mean failure in another. Also, each player is different. Tim Tebow has yet to be a failure in the Pros.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 11:00 PM
Vince Young is the biggest name you bring up and he's been labeled mentally soft to say the least. Seems to me that's a pretty small sample size.

The odds of any QB succeeding to the level of a top NFL QB are exceptionally small no matter the system they played in college. The system is as irrelevant as the school. If they have the measurables, and Tebow does, then it all depends on what happens in the mind when the ball is snapped.

Nobody can measure that unfortunately.


There is a reason it's a small sample size...QB's that run the spread option don't make it in the NFL as QB's...that's the point.

If the system is irrelevant than why haven't there been ANY triple option QB's in the NFL...playing QB?

Saying the system is irrelevant is foolish.

Tebow has the measurables...really?

1. Weak arm
2. Can't read defenses
3. Barely ever taken snaps under center
4. Had a terrible pro day
5. Refused to throw at the NFL combine
6. Had a terrible Senior Bowl

What has he actually done to garner being compared to Peyton Manning in a favorable way?

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 11:04 PM
From what I can gather, a whole 7 schools run the spread option, fewer still are schools known for recruiting the best players. When you consider the odds of being drafted...and then being successful, it doesn't surprise me at all that the success of these players hasn't been great as of yet. All of these players have been drafted in the last 5-6 years as well. That's not much of an indictment yet.

I shall repeat myself. Success in one system does not mean failure in another. Also, each player is different. Tim Tebow has yet to be a failure in the Pros.

It's actually closure to 50.

What are the qualities of a spread option QB?

1. Good athlete
2. Run first, pass second...meaning they aren't natural passers, but natural athletes.

Tim Tebow is not a natural passer...he's not...not even close.

Cosmo
04-25-2010, 11:14 PM
There is a reason it's a small sample size...QB's that run the spread option don't make it in the NFL as QB's...that's the point.

If the system is irrelevant than why haven't there been ANY triple option QB's in the NFL...playing QB?

Saying the system is irrelevant is foolish.

Tebow has the measurables...really?

1. Weak arm
2. Can't read defenses
3. Barely ever taken snaps under center
4. Had a terrible pro day
5. Refused to throw at the NFL combine
6. Had a terrible Senior Bowl

What has he actually done to garner being compared to Peyton Manning in a favorable way?


What pro day did you watch? He dominated his pro-day throwing 45 yard seam and out routes over and over.

I'll give you he doesn't take snaps under center and his senior bowl sucked, but the rest you are way off on.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 11:18 PM
What pro day did you watch? He dominated his pro-day throwing 45 yard seam and out routes over and over.

I'll give you he doesn't take snaps under center and his senior bowl sucked, but the rest you are way off on.

That's honestly the first time I've heard anyone say he dominated his pro day.

Wow...

Cosmo
04-25-2010, 11:32 PM
That's honestly the first time I've heard anyone say he dominated his pro day.

Wow...

Do you want a link that describes his pro-day?

Here is just one:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/live-blog-tebow-pro-day-at-florida-031710

Google Florida pro day and find something that says Tebow looked bad.

StugotsIII
04-25-2010, 11:45 PM
Do you want a link that describes his pro-day?

Here is just one:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/live-blog-tebow-pro-day-at-florida-031710

Google Florida pro day and find something that says Tebow looked bad.

Really I've read and heard nothing but inconsistant remarks about his pro day. The best I've heard is that he's improved his footwork and mechanics, however he is still a 3 year project...that's the best I've heard. Not ringing endorsements regarding the SEC's all time leading QB.

I look forward to him competing for the backup role in 3 years. Certainly worth a 3 draft choices.

The most interesting part of your link:

"1:01 p.m. -- More final reaction, from Tim Yotter (covers the Vikings at Scout.com), who covered Tebow at the Senior Bowl and Combine: "Having followed Tebow for Scout.com and FOXSports.com throughout his week of practice at the Senior Bowl, I can tell you that he was easily the most popular player there. He wasn't the best quarterback there, but he drew fans like no else in the history of the college all-star game, according to Senior Bowl public relations director Kevin McDermond. The event sold out quickly and Florida and Alabama fans were prevalent lining the fences surrounding the playing surface, with fans all over talking about Tebow, his popularity"

Great...he's popular...that'll make up for all of his short comings.