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View Full Version : Is there any player on our roster that you would not trade? (or hijacked Jay thread)


baja
04-19-2010, 11:51 AM
name him/ them

broncosteven
04-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Not anymore.

Archer81
04-19-2010, 11:53 AM
Ryan Clady and Elvis Dumervil.


:Broncos:

bowtown
04-19-2010, 11:54 AM
Lonnie Paxton

Rabb
04-19-2010, 11:54 AM
Clady

baja
04-19-2010, 11:55 AM
Clady

Orton (this year only)

Baba Booey
04-19-2010, 11:55 AM
Clady and maybe Dawkins, based on the fact that we would get absolutely no value for him in return.

NFLBRONCO
04-19-2010, 11:58 AM
BM

Clady

Doom will be gone next year

listopencil
04-19-2010, 11:58 AM
Ryan Clady and Elvis Dumervil.


:Broncos:

Yep, right off the top of my head these two guys.

jhns
04-19-2010, 11:59 AM
I would never trade Clady, which means he will be gone pretty soon. Two years ago I bought three jerseys of players I thought were untradable. Two of those players have since been traded. Give it another year and we can get rid of all three in only three years.

Popps
04-19-2010, 11:59 AM
You don't trade your....


Line protector...

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/ryanclady.jpg

Line disrupter...

http://www.sportsagentblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/elvis-dumervil.jpg

Garcia Bronco
04-19-2010, 11:59 AM
Clady,
Kuper,
Bailey,
Dummervil,
Dan Graham
Eddie Royal

Garcia Bronco
04-19-2010, 12:00 PM
I would never trade Clady, which means he will be gone pretty soon. Two years ago I bought three jerseys of players I thought were untradable. Two of those players have since been traded. Give it another year and we can get rid of all three in only three years.

Stop buying jerseys. It's gay.

jhns
04-19-2010, 12:03 PM
Stop buying jerseys.

I did.

woodall
04-19-2010, 12:07 PM
Clady!

broncosteven
04-19-2010, 12:11 PM
Stop buying jerseys. It's gay.

I like the tee shirts with the player name and # on the back.

They were selling probowl ones for $5.00. You can wear the Tee, not worry about it getting ripped or hosed up and then when the guy gets traded you can wear it to mow the lawn in.

montrose
04-19-2010, 12:13 PM
No. Obviously some players would demand such ridiculous value that a trade would never happen but I never like the idea of depending on a player so much as to deem him untradeable.

HAT
04-19-2010, 12:16 PM
Of course not.....If the price is right, everybody is fair game.

This goes for all of my favorite teams, not just the Broncos. (And I'm a Laker fan so that includes Kobe).

I get where people are coming from when they say Clady, Doom, etc....

But really?

If another team is gonna overpay...you consider all options.

What if the Jets REALLY wanted to trade out of the 1st round and Rex Ryan had some personal beef with D'brick....You mean to tell me you wouldn't consider something like D'Brick & #29 for Clady & #45?

Maybe not that scenario exactly but you get the point.

GoBroncos84
04-19-2010, 12:18 PM
If a team was willing to overspend, then anyone is available. But id have a hard time dealing clady, Dawkins, Bailey, or doom

baja
04-19-2010, 12:24 PM
I like the tee shirts with the player name and # on the back.

They were selling probowl ones for $5.00. You can wear the Tee, not worry about it getting ripped or hosed up and then when the guy gets traded you can wear it to mow the lawn in.

I usually "mow the lawn" wearing coconut oil.

Borks147
04-19-2010, 12:34 PM
What if the Jets REALLY wanted to trade out of the 1st round and Rex Ryan had some personal beef with D'brick....You mean to tell me you wouldn't consider something like D'Brick & #29 for Clady & #45?


WTF? No!

TheChamp24
04-19-2010, 12:34 PM
I would not trade the future...
http://images.townnews.com/aurorasentinel.com/content/articles/2009/08/11/sports/local_sports/doc4a820bb198def409362513.jpg

Tommy ****in Brandstater

Triplelefthook
04-19-2010, 12:42 PM
The only players I would not consider trading at all if I were charge are Ryan Clady, Elvis Dumerville, Dj Williams and Eddie Royal. The last three because they have been model players and done everything that has been asked of them despite it including shifting in positions and roles within new offenses (sometimes to the detriment of their stats) and they haven't complained a bit. Also because they have played well

Dr. Broncenstein
04-19-2010, 12:58 PM
Clady
Doom
Kuper


Everyone else is available if the price is right.

broncosteven
04-19-2010, 01:02 PM
I usually "mow the lawn" wearing coconut oil.

Is "mow the lawn" Baja code for picking through trash looking for something to eat? Not that there is anything wrong with that...

HEAV
04-19-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm assuming you are talking trading younger players. In that case my list would be Clady,Doom and Knowshon.

As far as vets. I'd hate to see Dawkins playing elsewhere and even Champ. But if they wanted out to play with a contending teams...

uplink
04-19-2010, 01:05 PM
Clady is the best player on the team and should not be traded.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-19-2010, 01:06 PM
I wouldn't have traded Cutler. Just throwing that out there.

/ ducks and covers

WolfpackGuy
04-19-2010, 01:06 PM
I say they should cut Clady outright.

He has no burst after the catch...

Rohirrim
04-19-2010, 01:07 PM
No player is untradable. If Detroit called and said, "We'll give you our 2010 and 2011 first rounders plus our 2010 second rounder for Clady" would you do it?

Dr. Broncenstein
04-19-2010, 01:10 PM
No player is untradable. If Detroit called and said, "We'll give you our 2010 and 2011 first rounders plus our 2010 second rounder for Clady" would you do it?

No. He's that good... at the second most important position in the game.

HEAV
04-19-2010, 01:13 PM
No player is untradable. If Detroit called and said, "We'll give you our 2010 and 2011 first rounders plus our 2010 second rounder for Clady" would you do it?

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jhns
04-19-2010, 01:14 PM
No player is untradable. If Detroit called and said, "We'll give you our 2010 and 2011 first rounders plus our 2010 second rounder for Clady" would you do it?

If they came with that, I would laugh and hang up. I do not get why people actually like trading proven players for picks. Would you take Ayers, Alphonso Smith, and Richard Quinn for Clady? That is 2 firsts and a second....

bowtown
04-19-2010, 01:54 PM
People who believe that trading Cutler and Marshall will automatically lead to us trading Clady are like the people who believe that if you allow gays to marry, pretty soon people will want to marry dogs.

HILife
04-19-2010, 02:22 PM
I like the tee shirts with the player name and # on the back.

They were selling probowl ones for $5.00. You can wear the Tee, not worry about it getting ripped or hosed up and then when the guy gets traded you can wear it to mow the lawn in.

Or as a reusable diaper.

GoBroncos84
04-19-2010, 02:30 PM
I wouldn't have traded Cutler. Just throwing that out there.

/ ducks and covers

I wouldn't have traded Cutler, Marshall, or Scheffler in an ideal world. I think the Scheffler trade became somewhat necessary, but had Jay not been traded maybe that drama never would have occurred. I don't think we got fair value for any of those three, and I would have preferred to keep them all and keep building around them.

But whats done is done. I just have to hope that they know what they are doing

Old Dude
04-19-2010, 02:36 PM
For the right price, I'd do just about anything.

GoBroncos84
04-19-2010, 02:37 PM
People who believe that trading Cutler and Marshall will automatically lead to us trading Clady are like the people who believe that if you allow gays to marry, pretty soon people will want to marry dogs.

Agreed. That is the dumbest argument against gay marriage. I usually counter that with "right, just like giving women the right to vote resulted in horses voting". Very moronic and ignorant stance...

And yes, I don't think players like Clady or Dumervil will be traded. There is no locker room issues with those guys, they are model players. The three that have been traded, even though I was against all three of the trades in terms of how necessary they were or the lack of compensation we received for them, all had some sort of issue outside of football in regard to the team.

I am still a little frustrated when you look at the whole of the situation. The 2006 draft class could have went down as one of the greatest ever. Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Dumervil, Hixon, Kuper. 3 pro bowlers, a field stretching TE, a dynamic return man, and a very good starting RG. Of that class, only Doom and Kuper remain. And they are both RFA. Draft picks are hit and miss, but its hard to "build through the draft" when you keep getting rid of the players that you hit on. I really hope this team knows what it is doing

HAT
04-19-2010, 02:41 PM
If they came with that, I would laugh and hang up. I do not get why people actually like trading proven players for picks. Would you take Ayers, Alphonso Smith, and Richard Quinn for Clady? That is 2 firsts and a second....

The question wasn't is there anyone you wouldn't trade for picks.....It was trade, period.

If you can improve your team by trading a top 3 LT for a top 6 LT plus extra compensation...Why on earth wouldn't you consider it, no matter who's name is on the back of the jersey?

jhns
04-19-2010, 02:50 PM
The question wasn't is there anyone you wouldn't trade for picks.....It was trade, period.

If you can improve your team by trading a top 3 LT for a top 6 LT plus extra compensation...Why on earth wouldn't you consider it, no matter who's name is on the back of the jersey?

I would maybe consider it for a proven player and picks. That post was in response to 2 firsts and a second though.

When I say guys like Clady, Cutler, and Marshall are untradable to me, I am more meaning I would never trade them for something that may realistically be offered. I would consider the trade for another top LT and picks. I just don't think that would ever be offered. We are the only team with a front office that has played to much Madden.

Dagmar
04-19-2010, 03:09 PM
I wouldn't have traded Cutler, Marshall, or Scheffler in an ideal world. I think the Scheffler trade became somewhat necessary, but had Jay not been traded maybe that drama never would have occurred. I don't think we got fair value for any of those three, and I would have preferred to keep them all and keep building around them.

But whats done is done. I just have to hope that they know what they are doing

You don't think we got fair value for babyjay? Are you freaking joking?

Swedish Extrovert
04-19-2010, 03:12 PM
I pretty much agree with the consensus: Clady and Dumvervil.

Marshall was actually on that list, but what are you going to do...

briane
04-19-2010, 03:30 PM
Ryan Clady and Elvis Dumervil.


:Broncos:

agreed!

GoBroncos84
04-19-2010, 03:31 PM
You don't think we got fair value for babyjay? Are you freaking joking?

I don't think you trade a 26 year old pro bowl franchise QB that hasn't even peaked yet. Granted, Jay's immature behavior had a lot to do with him getting shipped out. I definitely felt we should have gotten a little more compensation at the time, but ultimately the value comes down to what we did with the picks. Currently, that isn't much. I know Jay had a bad year in Chicago, so its easy to devalue him. But he would not have thrown 26 picks had he stayed in Denver. He probably would have had another pro bowl season. So no, I don't think we won in that trade. Not at all

gyldenlove
04-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Clady, Harris, Kuper and Prater

Pony Boy
04-19-2010, 04:06 PM
I will trade Clady for Peyton Manning straight up.....

oubronco
04-19-2010, 04:08 PM
I agree with others Doom is gone next year

HAT
04-19-2010, 04:11 PM
. I know Jay had a bad year in Chicago, so its easy to devalue him.


And it's also easy to devalue him b/c Orton pretty much just had the same statistical 2009 with Denver that Jay did in 2008.

broncosteven
04-19-2010, 04:34 PM
mCd said no one is untradeable. That is what the stance of this regime is. If they come up with some blockbuster deal for picks and or players I expect, even demand that they pull the trigger on Doom or Clady.

The team concept had better click this season or we are in some serious trouble.

Que
04-19-2010, 04:43 PM
Clady
Doom
Kuper


Everyone else is available if the price is right.

Quoted for truth

Que
04-19-2010, 04:46 PM
I say they should cut Clady outright.

He has no burst after the catch...

Ya, and doesn't have the top gear to break the long ones. Guy is a possession receiver at best - third down specialist. heh.

DBroncos4life
04-19-2010, 04:48 PM
No one is bigger then the Denver Broncos not even Josh McDaniels.

rastaman
04-19-2010, 04:57 PM
I would never trade Clady, which means he will be gone pretty soon. Two years ago I bought three jerseys of players I thought were untradable. Two of those players have since been traded. Give it another year and we can get rid of all three in only three years.

This is true. Last year, McD told the entire team that EVERYONE IS EXPENDABLE! So far he has stuck to his word. Basically Josh has set the tone in Denver that if you question him or his authority or are unwilling to sign a NE patented low balling contract that's good for the owners bottom line and team.....YOU ARE EXPENDABLE!

FireFly
04-19-2010, 05:08 PM
If the price is right I would trade anyone we have left - but I doubt we'd get enough for Clady - I'd need like 3 first rounders in return.

I wouldn't expect a 1st for anyone else on the roster.

RonDaChamp24
04-19-2010, 05:20 PM
Clady, Bailey

spdirty
04-19-2010, 06:19 PM
Everyone is expendable. Especially those who have the most talent on the team and who we can get for inferior talent and draft picks.

gunns
04-19-2010, 06:20 PM
Ryan Clady

broncosteven
04-19-2010, 06:37 PM
Everyone is expendable. Especially those who have the most talent on the team and who we can get for inferior talent and draft picks.

But 1st round picks are better than starters who have actual NFL experience.

jutang
04-19-2010, 06:59 PM
Our drunk Alzheimer owner

GoBroncos84
04-19-2010, 07:49 PM
And it's also easy to devalue him b/c Orton pretty much just had the same statistical 2009 with Denver that Jay did in 2008.

There was a huge difference in how potent our offense was. Jay did have better numbers, (700 more yards, 4 more TDs, 18 fewer sacks, etc... of course, he threw more pics too), but just the fact that Jay had the ability to make plays that Kyle can't. If we were down and needed to gain yardage in chunks, in a hurry, to come back we couldn't do that with Kyle. At least with Jay we had a chance. Sure, he might end up throwing a pic in the redzone and its all for nothing. But that's better than short pass, incomplete, short pass, punt. Orton isn't in Cutler's league, period. He may be a safer player, which I appreciate whole heartedly. But he is nowhere near as talented, and had we kept Jay our offense would be much more potent than it currently is.

I don't mean to drag on an old debate, so I apologize if I have done so.

Archer81
04-19-2010, 07:53 PM
There was a huge difference in how potent our offense was. Jay did have better numbers, (700 more yards, 4 more TDs, 18 fewer sacks, etc... of course, he threw more pics too), but just the fact that Jay had the ability to make plays that Kyle can't. If we were down and needed to gain yardage in chunks, in a hurry, to come back we couldn't do that with Kyle. At least with Jay we had a chance. Sure, he might end up throwing a pic in the redzone and its all for nothing. But that's better than short pass, incomplete, short pass, punt. Orton isn't in Cutler's league, period. He may be a safer player, which I appreciate whole heartedly. But he is nowhere near as talented, and had we kept Jay our offense would be much more potent than it currently is.

I don't mean to drag on an old debate, so I apologize if I have done so.


So...how many times did Cutler actually bring the team back to win or tie when we were down in the 4th quarter?

Better question: How many times were we down late because of those redzone turnovers? How many times did Jay put a shaky defense on a short field?

:Broncos:

baja
04-19-2010, 07:56 PM
There was a huge difference in how potent our offense was. Jay did have better numbers, (700 more yards, 4 more TDs, 18 fewer sacks, etc... of course, he threw more pics too), but just the fact that Jay had the ability to make plays that Kyle can't. If we were down and needed to gain yardage in chunks, in a hurry, to come back we couldn't do that with Kyle. At least with Jay we had a chance. Sure, he might end up throwing a pic in the redzone and its all for nothing. But that's better than short pass, incomplete, short pass, punt. Orton isn't in Cutler's league, period. He may be a safer player, which I appreciate whole heartedly. But he is nowhere near as talented, and had we kept Jay our offense would be much more potent than it currently is.

I don't mean to drag on an old debate, so I apologize if I have done so.


Fair enough but keep in mind Orton was forced to play very conservative in his first year in a very complex system. This year the wraps come off as a result you will see Orton doing the things you say he can not do.

HAT
04-19-2010, 08:09 PM
There was a huge difference in how potent our offense was. Jay did have better numbers, (700 more yards, 4 more TDs, 18 fewer sacks, etc... of course, he threw more pics too), but just the fact that Jay had the ability to make plays that Kyle can't. If we were down and needed to gain yardage in chunks, in a hurry, to come back we couldn't do that with Kyle. At least with Jay we had a chance. Sure, he might end up throwing a pic in the redzone and its all for nothing. But that's better than short pass, incomplete, short pass, punt. Orton isn't in Cutler's league, period. He may be a safer player, which I appreciate whole heartedly. But he is nowhere near as talented, and had we kept Jay our offense would be much more potent than it currently is.

I don't mean to drag on an old debate, so I apologize if I have done so.

I'm not arguing that he is in the least (Which is why Denver was able to get the two 1sts & a 3rd). Talent differential aside, the production was remarkably similar.

The sack differential is a biggie but the additional yards & TD's can be attributed to Cutlers extra 75 attempts. If you multiply those 75 attempts by Orton's completion % and Y/C the difference is very little. Same goes TD's per attempt.

I will take similar production, a better attitude & all that extra compensation all day if the only thing I'm giving up is better mobility & the supposed better ability to come back from a larger deficit. The goal is not to be that far behind in the first place.

Interestingly enough....The opposite premise holds true as well. Cutler's 2009 numbers with Chicago were basically the same as Orton's in 2008.

What Jay & Kyle may or may have not accomplished had they remained with their respective teams doesn't really matter to me.

spdirty
04-19-2010, 08:21 PM
But 1st round picks are better than starters who have actual NFL experience.

and midget conrnerbacks who get beaten out by 57 year olds are more valuable than 1st rounders.

broncosteven
04-19-2010, 08:29 PM
So...how many times did Cutler actually bring the team back to win or tie when we were down in the 4th quarter?

Better question: How many times were we down late because of those redzone turnovers? How many times did Jay put a shaky defense on a short field?

:Broncos:

Cutler had 7 4th Quarter comebacks with Denver. He should thank Hoculi for one of those.

The Cleveland game vs Quinn was the most exciting for me, we were down 13-23 and we scored 3 td's in the 4th Q to win. He had a comeback the next week at Atlanta also.

Dedhed
04-19-2010, 09:49 PM
No player is untradable. If Detroit called and said, "We'll give you our 2010 and 2011 first rounders plus our 2010 second rounder for Clady" would you do it?No. I would take 7 first rounders for Clady, nothing less.

Going into his 3rd year he's the best LT in football. What more are you hoping to find in a draftee?

jhns
04-20-2010, 06:06 AM
The sack differential is a biggie but the additional yards & TD's can be attributed to Cutlers extra 75 attempts. If you multiply those 75 attempts by Orton's completion % and Y/C the difference is very little. Same goes TD's per attempt.


This offense was much worse this past season. Have you really convinced yourself that this stuff is true? Did you ever think Jay got those extra attempts because the offense didn't go 3 and out all the time? The offense had many more yards and points with a ton more injuries. This past years team even got tons of turnovers for the offense and they still couldn't come close to the years before point total. Last years team had more defensive and special teams TDs only to not come close to last seasons point total.

You guys are funny though. The rediculous stuff you all make up because you got your feelings hurt keeps me entertained during the day.

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 06:52 AM
No. I would take 7 first rounders for Clady, nothing less.


By definition, then, he IS tradeable.

enjolras
04-20-2010, 06:53 AM
Sometimes you have to take steps backwards to move forward. Football is about attitude. I remain shocked that Broncos fans don't seem to get that. Our superbowl teams were amazing. They all pulled in the same direction. They played for each other. It was one of the most cohesive groups to ever put on pads. It wasn't simply the addition of Davis that put this team over the top. It was the fact that the team gelled under a common purpose. They where motivated to play every game and every down.

That only happens when you have a core of players that are leaders. Elway, Davis, Atwater, Sharpe, Rod Smith... When you have professionals like that on your team you can afford a few problems (like Romanowski for instance). Our problem in Denver for the last several years has been a complete lack of leadership from top to bottom. McDaniels, in my view, changes that. Children like Cutler and Marshall will never be true leaders of men.

In football, all of the talent in the world doesn't matter if you don't get the whole team moving in one direction. Just ask fans of the Dallas Cowboys or Washington Redskins. They always have a ton of talent, but what has that resulted in?

McDaniels is reconstructing this team around men. There is a reason that guy like Eddie Royal and Ryan Clady are still on this team. He has to change the entire mindset of the team and he's doing that around players who want to battle every game. Once you have that established, then you can gamble. Look at how Moss has fit in with the Patriots... sure there has been some minor dust-ups, but overall he's been a soldier for that team. That's the power of getting the team right.

We're going through that painful process right now. Jay Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler simply lack the mentality to be a part of it. I say good riddance to them.

jhns
04-20-2010, 06:59 AM
That is a good story enjolras. It is funny what you guys try coming up with to justify this crap. It will be nice when McDaniels is fired and all of you come back to reality.

baja
04-20-2010, 07:07 AM
That is a good story enjolras. It is funny what you guys try coming up with to justify this crap. It will be nice when McDaniels is fired and all of you come back to reality.

What will you do if he is right

jhns
04-20-2010, 07:09 AM
What will you do if he is right

Jump on board and pretend I always liked McDaniels plan.

baja
04-20-2010, 07:18 AM
Jump on board and pretend I always liked McDaniels plan.

LOL Refreshing!

RaiderH8r
04-20-2010, 07:30 AM
No player is untradable. If Detroit called and said, "We'll give you our 2010 and 2011 first rounders plus our 2010 second rounder for Clady" would you do it?

I would take the trade. Of course McD probably would to so that he could turn around and trade a 1st rounder next year to pick up a third round talent in the second round. But we have different approaches.

I say we shop Clady after next year. He's going to command way too much money in the future and we should strike while the iron is hot. We should have traded Royal after his rookie year, clearly he doesn't fit McKid's system.

Knowshon needs to get it together this year so that we can get value before the wheels fall off of that turd.

TheDave
04-20-2010, 07:36 AM
This kidd better not **** up all these draft picks...

RaiderH8r
04-20-2010, 07:36 AM
Fair enough but keep in mind Orton was forced to play very conservative in his first year in a very complex system. This year the wraps come off as a result you will see Orton doing the things you say he can not do.

No, I'm pretty sure that Orton will still be whiffle balling anything past 15 yds. and past the same 15 yds Orton couldn't hit water if he was throwing from a boat. I do look forward to a more intricate screen game with more checkdowns to the swing pass out of the backfield. It will be sweet.

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 08:16 AM
No. I would take 7 first rounders for Clady, nothing less.

Going into his 3rd year he's the best LT in football. What more are you hoping to find in a draftee?

I'm not saying I would either. My point was, nobody is "untradeable." If a franchise calls and wants to pull a "Ditka," I doubt we would hang up on them.

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 08:19 AM
Sometimes you have to take steps backwards to move forward. Football is about attitude. I remain shocked that Broncos fans don't seem to get that. Our superbowl teams were amazing. They all pulled in the same direction. They played for each other. It was one of the most cohesive groups to ever put on pads. It wasn't simply the addition of Davis that put this team over the top. It was the fact that the team gelled under a common purpose. They where motivated to play every game and every down.

That only happens when you have a core of players that are leaders. Elway, Davis, Atwater, Sharpe, Rod Smith... When you have professionals like that on your team you can afford a few problems (like Romanowski for instance). Our problem in Denver for the last several years has been a complete lack of leadership from top to bottom. McDaniels, in my view, changes that. Children like Cutler and Marshall will never be true leaders of men.

In football, all of the talent in the world doesn't matter if you don't get the whole team moving in one direction. Just ask fans of the Dallas Cowboys or Washington Redskins. They always have a ton of talent, but what has that resulted in?

McDaniels is reconstructing this team around men. There is a reason that guy like Eddie Royal and Ryan Clady are still on this team. He has to change the entire mindset of the team and he's doing that around players who want to battle every game. Once you have that established, then you can gamble. Look at how Moss has fit in with the Patriots... sure there has been some minor dust-ups, but overall he's been a soldier for that team. That's the power of getting the team right.

We're going through that painful process right now. Jay Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler simply lack the mentality to be a part of it. I say good riddance to them.

Great post. This also explains one of the first moves Josh made: Bringing in Dawkins. Expect more of the same.

jhns
04-20-2010, 08:24 AM
Great post.

How is that a great post? He uses Elway as an example of the attitude you need. Elway was the exact same as Cutler. He didn't just roll over and take anything the coach did. He got one fired for looking at replacements. I'm sure Cutler would have had no more problems if that was also an option for him. You guys are saying we can't have these divas when we won our only SBs with the exact kind of players you are saying we can't win with.... It is funny stuff.

HAT
04-20-2010, 08:31 AM
This offense was much worse this past season. Have you really convinced yourself that this stuff is true? Did you ever think Jay got those extra attempts because the offense didn't go 3 and out all the time?



Are you really that dense?

Orton threw the ball 541 times, Simms 17 & they ran the ball 440 times in 2009.

Cutler threw the ball 616 times, Ramsey 3 & they ran the ball 387 times in 2008.

So trick plays notwithstanding....
2009 Broncos = 998 plays
2008 Broncos = 1006 plays

The original context of comparing Orton & Cutler (again) in this thread was that someone stated that the Broncos did not receive fair value in the trade.

Given that Orton's 2009 Broncos numbers did not fall off from Cutler's 2008 Broncos numbers...

AND

That Cutler's 2009 Bears numbers did not jump up from Orton's 2008 Bears numbers...

AND

Denver received 2 1st's, a 3rd + Orton for only giving Cutler and a 5th (no matter what becomes of the picks)...

I just don't understand how anyone can think Denver didn't absolutely OWN that trade.

I know you miss him bro and I'm sorry if you wasted a couple hundred bucks on Cutler gear thinking he was a 'franchise QB'. But you will feel better if you just move on.

jhns
04-20-2010, 08:38 AM
Are you really that dense?

Orton threw the ball 541 times, Simms 17 & they ran the ball 440 times in 2009.

Cutler threw the ball 616 times, Ramsey 3 & they ran the ball 387 times in 2008.

So trick plays notwithstanding....
2009 Broncos = 998 plays
2008 Broncos = 1006 plays

The original context of comparing Orton & Cutler (again) in this thread was that someone stated that the Broncos did not receive fair value in the trade.

Given that Orton's 2009 Broncos numbers did not fall off from Cutler's 2008 Broncos numbers...

AND

That Cutler's 2009 Bears numbers did not jump up from Orton's 2008 Bears numbers...

AND

Denver received 2 1st's, a 3rd + Orton for only giving Cutler and a 5th (no matter what becomes of the picks)...

I just don't understand how anyone can think Denver didn't absolutely OWN that trade.

I know you miss him bro and I'm sorry if you wasted a couple hundred bucks on Cutler gear thinking he was a 'franchise QB'. But you will feel better if you just move on.

Sorry, you are the dense one. How did we not have a drop off on offense? How in the world do you get that Orton had the same numbers here as Cutler? Maybe I am wrong about why he got less attempts but the actual numbers on the stat sheets show they were not even close.

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 08:41 AM
How is that a great post? He uses Elway as an example of the attitude you need. Elway was the exact same as Cutler. He didn't just roll over and take anything the coach did. He got one fired for looking at replacements. I'm sure Cutler would have had no more problems if that was also an option for him. You guys are saying we can't have these divas when we won our only SBs with the exact kind of players you are saying we can't win with.... It is funny stuff.

Like I'm going to waste any bandwidth trying to explain something to a ****ing moron like you. Ha!

jhns
04-20-2010, 08:44 AM
Like I'm going to waste any bandwidth trying to explain something to a ****ing moron like you. Ha!

Wow, you sure are a sensitive one. I guess only ****ing morons are able to use their brains here. I get it though. There is no way possible to support McDaniels and use your brain at the same time.

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 08:48 AM
Sorry, you are the dense one. How did we not have a drop off on offense? How in the world do you get that Orton had the same numbers here as Cutler? Maybe I am wrong about why he got less attempts but the actual numbers on the stat sheets show they were not even close.

http://i41.tinypic.com/30boja1.png

jhns
04-20-2010, 08:51 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/30boja1.png

That means nothing to me. I can't even see it.

oubronco
04-20-2010, 08:52 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/30boja1.png

Curious how would those stats look without Marshall

Guess we're gonna find out

HAT
04-20-2010, 08:52 AM
. How did we not have a drop off on offense?
I'm not arguing that Denver didn't. But comparing overall offensive numbers and comparing QB's are two different things.

How in the world do you get that Orton had the same numbers here as Cutler?
I have this thing called a browser that I point to sports.yahoo.com. Next I click on the NFL stats tab. I have posted the numbers side by side multiple times on the Mane.


Maybe I am wrong about why he got less attempts but the actual numbers on the stat sheets show they were not even close. There is no maybe. You spouted off an uniformed opinion as to why Orton had less attempts. A simple glance at the stats pages shows there was an 8 play differential. And you are doing it again with the second part of the above sentence. The actual numbers on the stat sheets show that they were near identical. (Except the sacks, as previously mentioned)



Pretty sure your next response will involve the terms....Dink/Dunk, bubble screens, no down field threat, etc. and that's fine.

It won't change the fact that Cutler & Orton proved to be interchangeable with each others former teams. Granted...1 year is a small sample.

baja
04-20-2010, 08:53 AM
Sometimes you have to take steps backwards to move forward. Football is about attitude. I remain shocked that Broncos fans don't seem to get that. Our superbowl teams were amazing. They all pulled in the same direction. They played for each other. It was one of the most cohesive groups to ever put on pads. It wasn't simply the addition of Davis that put this team over the top. It was the fact that the team gelled under a common purpose. They where motivated to play every game and every down.

That only happens when you have a core of players that are leaders. Elway, Davis, Atwater, Sharpe, Rod Smith... When you have professionals like that on your team you can afford a few problems (like Romanowski for instance). Our problem in Denver for the last several years has been a complete lack of leadership from top to bottom. McDaniels, in my view, changes that. Children like Cutler and Marshall will never be true leaders of men.

In football, all of the talent in the world doesn't matter if you don't get the whole team moving in one direction. Just ask fans of the Dallas Cowboys or Washington Redskins. They always have a ton of talent, but what has that resulted in?

McDaniels is reconstructing this team around men. There is a reason that guy like Eddie Royal and Ryan Clady are still on this team. He has to change the entire mindset of the team and he's doing that around players who want to battle every game. Once you have that established, then you can gamble. Look at how Moss has fit in with the Patriots... sure there has been some minor dust-ups, but overall he's been a soldier for that team. That's the power of getting the team right.

We're going through that painful process right now. Jay Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler simply lack the mentality to be a part of it. I say good riddance to them.

Very well said enjolras, I wish everyone would would read this with an open mind


TJI think you should sticky this post

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 08:56 AM
That means nothing to me. I can't even see it.

Wow, how ridiculously convenient!

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2977/ortonvscutler.png (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/ortonvscutler.png/)

jhns
04-20-2010, 09:02 AM
Pretty sure your next response will involve the terms....Dink/Dunk, bubble screens, no down field threat, etc. and that's fine.

It won't change the fact that Cutler & Orton proved to be interchangeable with each others former teams. Granted...1 year is a small sample.

Umm, Cutler had far more yards and TDs. I'm not sure how you get identical. Maybe you are under the impression that if Orton was thrown into a pass happy offense, his numbers would be the same as they were in the extremely conservative offense? Are you really saying Orton would have the same kind of numbers in the pass first offense Cutler was forced to play? Laughable. It is exactly why you put in the stuff about dink and dunk.....

The offense got much worse without Cutler. Cutler had much better numbers here than Orton. These two sentences are facts. Every spin you put on it is a lame attempt to validate what McDaniels has done. I don't really get why you guys think he shouldn't be accountable. He isn't the Broncos. He isn't bigger than the Broncos.....

jhns
04-20-2010, 09:05 AM
Wow, how ridiculously convenient!

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2977/ortonvscutler.png (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/ortonvscutler.png/)

I'm not kidding it is really blurry for me. I even just tried saving it off and zooming in. The text then just looks like giant blobs of black. Can you just tell me what you are showing? I will look it up myself.

jhns
04-20-2010, 09:10 AM
Very well said enjolras, I wish everyone would would read this with an open mind


TJI think you should sticky this post

"We need leaders like Elway that follow the coach no matter what and do everything he says. That is what team players do. It is the only way to win! Oh, except when we won those two SBs with that Elway guy that didn't just roll over and take a coach trying to replace him. We can't win with Cutler though because he did the same thing and that is different!"

LOL

You guys make no sense at all.

baja
04-20-2010, 09:12 AM
Umm, Cutler had far more yards and TDs. I'm not sure how you get identical. Maybe you are under the impression that if Orton was thrown into a pass happy offense, his numbers would be the same as they were in the extremely conservative offense? Are you really saying Orton would have the same kind of numbers in the pass first offense Cutler was forced to play? Laughable. It is exactly why you put in the stuff about dink and dunk.....

The offense got much worse without Cutler. Cutler had much better numbers here than Orton. These two sentences are facts. Every spin you put on it is a lame attempt to validate what McDaniels has done. I don't really get why you guys think he shouldn't be accountable. He isn't the Broncos. He isn't bigger than the Broncos.....

Dude Jay Cutler was traded to the Bears on April 3, 2009 that is 382 days ago - get over it

baja
04-20-2010, 09:15 AM
"We need leaders like Elway that follow the coach no matter what and do everything he says. That is what team players do. It is the only way to win! Oh, except when we won those two SBs with that Elway guy that didn't just roll over and take a coach trying to replace him. We can't win with Cutler though because he did the same thing and that is different!"

LOL

You guys make no sense at all.

Elway put up with a lot of dumb shiit before he revolted against Reeves

jhns
04-20-2010, 09:15 AM
Dude Jay Cutler was traded to the Bears on April 3, 2009 that is 382 days ago - get over it


I will get over it when we replace Cutler or replace McDaniels. I won't even really be over it when we replace McDaniels. It won't be bad that I'm not at that point though as all of you will be saying exactly what I am saying now.

jhns
04-20-2010, 09:17 AM
Elway put up with a lot of dumb shiit before he revolted against Reeves

I agree, he also accomplished a lot more by that time. It still doesn't change the fact that Elway is not considered a team player we can win with according to what you all are saying.

baja
04-20-2010, 09:18 AM
I will get over it when we replace Cutler or replace McDaniels. I won't even really be over it when we replace McDaniels. It won't be bad that I'm not at that point though as all of you will be saying exactly what I am saying now.

Want to make a bet that this time next year you will be singing the praises of Josh McD.

jhns
04-20-2010, 09:23 AM
Want to make a bet that this time next year you will be singing the praises of Josh McD.

Gambling is not good character. I don't want to take a bet and have Josh trade me for a Dallas fan or something.

baja
04-20-2010, 09:30 AM
you are a bitter closed minded person so I will leave you to your bitterness.

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 10:01 AM
http://i42.tinypic.com/facvw2.png


http://i40.tinypic.com/xgi3uv.png


http://imgur.com/Wc4Vr.png

http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/d8c8deed0dbfe1a4952869e3a92346b1.png (http://www.iimmgg.com/image/45d9faa814380c10f06c2d6edde6d3de)

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.7ab47b3b8a.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?7ab47b3b8a.png)

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 10:06 AM
How is that a great post? He uses Elway as an example of the attitude you need. Elway was the exact same as Cutler. He didn't just roll over and take anything the coach did. He got one fired for looking at replacements. I'm sure Cutler would have had no more problems if that was also an option for him. You guys are saying we can't have these divas when we won our only SBs with the exact kind of players you are saying we can't win with.... It is funny stuff.

Hmm you don't know anything about Elway obviously. He was the ultimate team leader and players rallied around him. Players from his teams commented about how no one worked harder than him to get ready to play, even up to the time when he was about to retire. Did he have disagreements with his coach? Absolutely. Hell, there were reports of Tom Brady and McDaniels having problems...does that make Tom Brady a diva?

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 10:11 AM
jhns needs to change his screen name to "Butthurt Cutler Fanboi"

jhns
04-20-2010, 10:11 AM
Hmm you don't know anything about Elway obviously. He was the ultimate team leader and players rallied around him. Players from his teams commented about how no one worked harder than him to get ready to play, even up to the time when he was about to retire. Did he have disagreements with his coach? Absolutely. Hell, there were reports of Tom Brady and McDaniels having problems...does that make Tom Brady a diva?

That is what you guys are saying. I have no problem with Elway or Cutler. Brady can go to hell. Cutler was said to be a hard worker. He even worked through each offseason while here. Not one player from his teams has had a problem with him. In fact, I have seen multiple players say they liked him. Shanahan said he never had an attitude problem.
Anyways, it is not my argument that a player can't be a leader if they don't roll over for everything the coach does. You are talking to the wrong person.

jhns
04-20-2010, 10:14 AM
jhns needs to change his screen name to "Butthurt Cutler Fanboi"

I tried, that name was taken.

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 10:14 AM
That is what you guys are saying. I have no problem with Elway or Cutler. Brady can go to hell. Cutler was said to be a hard worker. He even worked through each offseason while here. Not one player from his teams has had a problem with him. In fact, I have seen multiple players say they liked him. Shanahan said he never had an attitude problem.
Anyways, it is not my argument that a player can't be a leader if they don't roll over for everything the coach does. You are talking to the wrong person.

The problem is that Cutler is not a leader.

jhns
04-20-2010, 10:18 AM
The problem is that Cutler is not a leader.

No the problem is McDaniels decided to cut off his nose in spite of his face. It is really a shame. With the way he can build a defense, we could have had a really good team in no time. Now we get to wait until he figures out how to build an offense.

diehardbroncosfan
04-20-2010, 10:28 AM
Ryan Clady, Brian Dawkins, Elvis Dumervil, and Eddie Royal.

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 10:34 AM
Ryan Clady, Brian Dawkins, Elvis Dumervil, and Eddie Royal.

Yup, if the Pats came calling with Tom Brady, Jarod Mayo and Vince Wilfork for any of those guys.....you'd say "no"? I doubt it.

baja
04-20-2010, 10:36 AM
I wouldn't trade Josh McDaniels

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 10:38 AM
jhns still hasn't got his reading glasses on to see the stats then?

azbroncfan
04-20-2010, 10:41 AM
Clady but he could be had for right price too. If you did same thing with Indy, NO or NE they only have one untradeable player. Everyplayer is moveable for right price.

TD30
04-20-2010, 10:41 AM
I wouldn't trade Josh McDaniels


Why condemn another team

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 10:44 AM
Clady but he could be had for right price too. If you did same thing with Indy, NO or NE they only have one untradeable player. Everyplayer is moveable for right price.

Don't these statements all contradict one another?

azbroncfan
04-20-2010, 10:44 AM
How is that a great post? He uses Elway as an example of the attitude you need. Elway was the exact same as Cutler. He didn't just roll over and take anything the coach did. He got one fired for looking at replacements. I'm sure Cutler would have had no more problems if that was also an option for him. You guys are saying we can't have these divas when we won our only SBs with the exact kind of players you are saying we can't win with.... It is funny stuff.

Except when a QB is a winner and not a loser it is easier to put up with a little attitude. Beaten dead horse but everyone knows Cutler couldn't win a HS game.

jhns
04-20-2010, 10:53 AM
Except when a QB is a winner and not a loser it is easier to put up with a little attitude. Beaten dead horse but everyone knows Cutler couldn't win a HS game.

Cutler won his HS championship.

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 10:56 AM
No the problem is McDaniels decided to cut off his nose in spite of his face. It is really a shame. With the way he can build a defense, we could have had a really good team in no time. Now we get to wait until he figures out how to build an offense.

The problem is that the results so far for Mr. Cutler seem to indicate that he's Jeff George v2 rather than the next great young QB. I know you are enamored by him, but the kid hasn't really done **** in his 4 seasons in the NFL. Sorry about that. Maybe you should move on?

Hotrod
04-20-2010, 11:00 AM
No the problem is McDaniels decided to cut off his nose in spite of his face. It is really a shame. With the way he can build a defense, we could have had a really good team in no time. Now we get to wait until he figures out how to build an offense.

Oh my

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:04 AM
The problem is that the results so far for Mr. Cutler seem to indicate that he's Jeff George v2. I know you are enamored by him, but the kid hasn't really done **** in his 4 seasons in the NFL. Sorry about that. Maybe you should move on?

I will move on when we replace Cutler, win, or replace McDaniels.

Anyways, let's hope you are right. It is going to be a long sad period of time if Cutler puts it all together and we still have no QB. I hope you all remember that you defended this dumb ass move at that time.

Also, the professionals don't agree with any of you. I can show you where Elway said it was a mistake and that Cutler is going to be very good. I can show you Shanahan saying Cutler doesn't have an attitude problem and that he is going to be real good. I can show you where McDaniels said it was never in the best interest of the Broncos to trade Cutler and that he is very good. I can show you where Bowlen says Cutler is very good.

I get it though. You all know more about football, and QBs, than all of these guys.

Hotrod
04-20-2010, 11:08 AM
I will move on when we replace Cutler, win, or replace McDaniels.

Anyways, let's hope you are right. It is going to be a long sad period of time if Cutler puts it all together and we still have no QB. I hope you all remember that you defended this dumb ass move at that time.

Also, the professionals don't agree with any of you. I can show you where Elway said it was a mistake and that Cutler is going to be very good. I can show you Shanahan saying Cutler doesn't have an attitude problem and that he is going to be real good. I can show you where McDaniels said it was never in the best interest of the Broncos to trade Cutler and that he is very good. I can show you where Bowlen says Cutler is very good.

I get it though. You all know more about football, and QBs, than all of these guys.

I cant speak for everyone but personally I feel that you are wound just a bit tight. Cutler jerseys are half off right now at www.jaysjock.com just saying.

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 11:10 AM
I will move on when we replace Cutler, win, or replace McDaniels.

Anyways, let's hope you are right. It is going to be a long sad period of time if Cutler puts it all together and we still have no QB. I hope you all remember that you defended this dumb ass move at that time.

Also, the professionals don't agree with any of you. I can show you where Elway said it was a mistake and that Cutler is going to be very good. I can show you Shanahan saying Cutler doesn't have an attitude problem and that he is going to be real good. I can show you where McDaniels said it was never in the best interest of the Broncos to trade Cutler and that he is very good. I can show you where Bowlen says Cutler is very good.

I get it though. You all know more about football, and QBs, than all of these guys.

That's great and all. The problem is that CUTLER WANTED TO BE TRADED AND WOULDN'T RETURN PHONE CALLS FROM THE TEAM OWNER. That kind of put a wrinkle in any plans of having the chance to be the Broncos QB. He also hasn't done a damn thing in this league, but that's just the icing on top.

Just go and get your Bears Cutler jersey and get over it...it's not worth kvetching about anymore.

Hotrod
04-20-2010, 11:11 AM
That's great and all. The problem is that CUTLER WANTED TO BE TRADED AND WOULDN'T RETURN PHONE CALLS FROM THE TEAM OWNER. That kind of put a wrinkle in any plans of having the chance to be the Broncos QB. He also hasn't done a damn thing in this league, but that's just the icing on top.

Just go and get your Bears Cutler jersey and get over it...it's not worth kvetching about anymore.

First rule of message board battle is "FACTS are not welcome" :giggle:

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:14 AM
I cant speak for everyone but personally I feel that you are wound just a bit tight. Cutler jerseys are half off right now at www.jaysjock.com just saying.

You are.

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:18 AM
That's great and all. The problem is that CUTLER WANTED TO BE TRADED AND WOULDN'T RETURN PHONE CALLS FROM THE TEAM OWNER. That kind of put a wrinkle in any plans of having the chance to be the Broncos QB. He also hasn't done a damn thing in this league, but that's just the icing on top.

Just go and get your Bears Cutler jersey and get over it...it's not worth kvetching about anymore.

What are you talking about? It is fun to argue about this. People get all mad and come up with ridiculous justifications for McDaniels horrible mistakes. I get much entertainment seeing what different people have convinced themselves of.

Hotrod
04-20-2010, 11:20 AM
You are the ****ing foshizzle.

Why thank you

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 11:20 AM
What are you talking about? It is fun to argue about this. People get all mad and come up with ridiculous justifications for McDaniels horrible mistakes. I get much entertainment seeing what different people have convinced themselves of.

Why was he traded then?

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:20 AM
First rule of message board battle is "FACTS are not welcome" :giggle:

At least this guy gets it.

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:24 AM
Why was he traded then?

McDaniels hates me.

That or he has no idea how to deal with players.

Hotrod
04-20-2010, 11:25 AM
What are you talking about? It is fun to argue about this. People get all mad and come up with ridiculous justifications for McDaniels horrible mistakes. I get much entertainment seeing what different people have convinced themselves of.

http://www.myspacebrand.com/funny_pictures/sign-images/_img/signimage8.gif

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 11:27 AM
Seriously Jhns, why haven't you commented on the stats that have been posted, because they don't align with any of the ****e you spout?

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:27 AM
http://www.myspacebrand.com/funny_pictures/sign-images/_img/signimage8.gif

I don't think you understand the meaning of irony.

Hotrod
04-20-2010, 11:28 AM
I don't think you understand the meaning of irony.

:afro: dude I irony my shirts every damn day

jhns
04-20-2010, 11:30 AM
Seriously Jhns, why haven't you commented on the stats that have been posted, because they don't align with any of the ****e you spout?

I thought we went over this. I can't see them. I am using a BlackBerry right now. That is a small screen. I can see the stats in the middle image of your last post but those don't say who they are or what you are getting at.

No need to get all mad about it. Does it look like I avoid responding to anyone?

TotallyScrewed
04-20-2010, 11:31 AM
At this point, please, keep both the lines.

HAT
04-20-2010, 11:52 AM
How in the world do you get that Orton had the same numbers here as Cutler?

Jay Cutler 2008 with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.8
Y/C: 11.8
Y/A: 7.3
%: 62,3
TD: 25
INT: 18
Team record: 8-8

Kyle Orton this year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.0
Y/C: 11.3
Y/A: 7.0
%: 62.1
TD: 21
INT: 12
Team record: 8-8

Let's look at that in reverse also....

'08 Orton with the Bears:

QBR: 79.6
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.4
%: 58.5
TD: 18
INT: 12
Team record: 9-7

'09 Cutler with the Bears:
QBR: 76.8
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.6
%: 60.5
TD: 27
INT: 26
Team record: 7-9

They were interchangeable. Twice. That very well may change next year and again the year after that. Or not.

I'm sure glad McX was able to finagle the extra two 1sts and the 3rd because Cutler has better 'escapability'. And we only had to give the 5th back because Orton has more maturity.

baja
04-20-2010, 11:57 AM
Oh my

You see what you've missed

Crushaholic
04-20-2010, 12:16 PM
If they don't want to play for Denver, then they become useless (see Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, and Tony Scheffler). That's the difference between those guys and players like Doom, Champ, and Dawkins. Those guys (at least publically) appear happy where they are.

jhns
04-20-2010, 12:19 PM
Jay Cutler 2008 with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.8
Y/C: 11.8
Y/A: 7.3
%: 62,3
TD: 25
INT: 18
Team record: 8-8

Kyle Orton this year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.0
Y/C: 11.3
Y/A: 7.0
%: 62.1
TD: 21
INT: 12
Team record: 8-8


Wait, so you go off of averages and show that Cutler did better when he had to do a ton more? That proves they are interchangable? What? I see like 800 less yards and 6 less TDs also....

HAT
04-20-2010, 12:40 PM
Wait, so you go off of averages and show that Cutler did better when he had to do a ton more? That proves they are interchangable? What? I see like 800 less yards and 6 less TDs also....

Again...

Jay Cutler was +75 on attempts.

75 extra attempts X 62.1% (Orton's comp %) X 11.3 (Orton's yards/completion) = 527 yards extra yards. (Still about 200 less than your lovers 2008 year)

Of course I am going by averages...That is the only data available. We can argue all day what would've actually happened had Orton thrown the ball 75 more times. But the 541 actual attempts is a big enough sample to show me that he probably would've maintained his low 60's % and a similar yards/completion.

As for TD's, it was 4 less, not 6.....But okay, I'll play.

Orton threw 1 TD per every 25 attempts....Chalk up another 3 for him. Orton threw 1 INT per every 45 attempts...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and add 2 picks to Orton's column.

IMO
24 TD + 14 INT > 25 TD + 18 INT.

AND AGAIN.....You are STILL ignoring the original premise of "equal value". In the context of this thread, we are not comparing JC & KO. We are comparing JC + 2009 5th to KO + 2009 1st + 2009 3rd + 2010 1st.

HAT
04-20-2010, 12:46 PM
Wait, so you go off of averages and show that Cutler did better when he had to do a ton more? That proves they are interchangable? What? I see like 800 less yards and 6 less TDs also....

PS.

75 attempts / 16 games = under 5 attempts per game.

Or, a hair over one attempt per Quarter of football. How is it that Jay had to do 'a ton' more again?

Oh, I know.....You will come back spouting 7 RB's on IR and all.....Which might have been a valid point had Denver not averaged 4.8 yards per carry.

I would argue that Orton had a tougher go of it with a more banged up line and a running game that only averaged 4.2 per carry.

jhns
04-20-2010, 12:49 PM
AND AGAIN.....You are STILL ignoring the original premise of "equal value". In the context of this thread, we are not comparing JC & KO. We are comparing JC + 2009 5th to KO + 2009 1st + 2009 3rd + 2010 1st.

Well we can't exactly break down the picks until they do something.

As for the part I didn't quote, you don't seem to get what I am saying. Cutler was asked to do more and was in a pass happy offense. His averages are still better. You showing that he had a ton more attempts proves he was asked to do more (that and watching the games). Your premiss that Orton would have kept his averages up while being asked to do a ton more is extremely flawed. Any math class dealing with averages will tell you as much. Anyone not just blindly trying to support McDaniels can see where that logic is flawed.

jhns
04-20-2010, 12:52 PM
PS.

75 attempts / 16 games = under 5 attempts per game.


So he didn't throw a ton more and get asked to do a lot more? Good, Orton had 800 less yards and 6 less TDs. He didn't pass any less than Cutler so we are done with that excuse.

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Your premiss that Orton would have kept his averages up while being asked to do a ton more is extremely flawed. Any math class dealing with averages will tell you as much. Anyone not just blindly trying to support McDaniels can see where that logic is flawed.

Well, in the 4 games where Orton was asked to do "more", he did just that:

NE: 35-48 for 330 yds, 2 TDs and 1 INT
Indy: 29-41 for 277 yds, 2 TDs and 1 INT
Philly: 27-41 for 189 yds, 3 TDs and 1 INT
KC: 32-56 for 431 yds, 1 TD and 3 INTs

And that doesn't even take into account that a good deal of those numbers came with his top weapons on the sidelines.

HAT
04-20-2010, 01:01 PM
Your premiss that Orton would have kept his averages up while being asked to do a ton more is extremely flawed. Any math class dealing with averages will tell you as much. Anyone not just blindly trying to support McDaniels can see where that logic is flawed.

I disagree. 541 attempts is a big enough sample for me. It's pretty safe to say that they would've remained roughly the same. I can claim they would've gone UP as easily as you assume they would've trended downward.

I think we've exhausted the Broncos angle here jhns.


Let's look at the other side of the coin.

Please tell me why 'The Franchise' had roughly the same 2009 in Chicago that Orton did in 2008.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Well, in the 4 games where Orton was asked to do "more", he did just that:

NE: 35-48 for 330 yds, 2 TDs and 1 INT
Indy: 29-41 for 277 yds, 2 TDs and 1 INT
Philly: 27-41 for 189 yds, 3 TDs and 1 INT
KC: 32-56 for 431 yds, 1 TD and 3 INTs

And that doesn't even take into account that a good deal of those numbers came with his top weapons on the sidelines.

It sure looks to me like he turned the ball over a lot when asked to do more. Maybe you are just proving my point? 8 TDs to 6 Ints? At least 2 of those were pick 6s.... Way better than Cutler did here.

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 01:07 PM
It sure looks to me like he turned the ball over a lot when asked to do more. Maybe you are just proving my point? 8 TDs to 6 Ints? At least 2 of those were pick 6s.... Way better than Cutler did here.

Way better? I believe the word he used was interchangeable. Sad that you don't know the meaning of that word, apparently.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:09 PM
Let's look at the other side of the coin.

Please tell me why 'The Franchise' had roughly the same 2009 in Chicago that Orton did in 2008.

I don't know, I don't watch Chicago. I don't pretend to know what is happening there. My takes are not just from stats, they are from what I see as well.

There are many things that can be factors here though. Chicago doesn't have good offensive coaching. They changed the line and maybe those changes didn't work. They brought in new receivers that had no experience, which can be a factor. Their non-offensive coaching thought they could just let Cutler throw it around and do whatever he wanted when that is the last thing Cutler needed. They went away from the very good run game that they had with Orton, which is a huge benifit for a QB....

Again though, that is speculation. I will not pretend to know what is going on there.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:11 PM
Way better? I believe the word he used was interchangeable. Sad that you don't know the meaning of that word, apparently.

That isn't even on par with what Cutler did here. Nice try though.

GoBroncos84
04-20-2010, 01:14 PM
Fair enough but keep in mind Orton was forced to play very conservative in his first year in a very complex system. This year the wraps come off as a result you will see Orton doing the things you say he can not do.

That's definitely what I'm hoping for

Popps
04-20-2010, 01:16 PM
Are we still talking about the puffy loser in Chicago?

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 01:17 PM
That isn't even on par with what Cutler did here. Nice try though.

Try again. The four Orton games presented above that you have a problem with extrapolate to 4,908 yds, 32 TDs and 24 INTs for a 16 game schedule.

baja
04-20-2010, 01:19 PM
Are we still talking about the puffy loser in Chicago?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sIvWMQvGKyA/SVqqMqybPLI/AAAAAAAABxM/X264IvgZk8w/s400/emo+jay+cutler.jpg

RaiderH8r
04-20-2010, 01:22 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sIvWMQvGKyA/SVqqMqybPLI/AAAAAAAABxM/X264IvgZk8w/s400/emo+jay+cutler.jpg

http://one4theotherthumb.com/images/stories/09regularseason/week8/orton.jpg

Kyle Orton: Just plain sucks.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:23 PM
Try again. The four Orton games presented above that you have a problem with extrapolate to 4,908 yds, 32 TDs and 24 INTs for a 16 game schedule.

And what exactly does this tell us? It sure looks to me like he was more turnover prone than Cutler in the few games he was asked to do more.

Beantown Bronco
04-20-2010, 01:25 PM
And what exactly does this tell us? It sure looks to me like he was more turnover prone than Cutler in the few games he was asked to do more.

What? A whole 1 turnover per game, except the one game he was asked to throw the ball 100 times without his 3 top receivers on the field and with backup Olinemen galore. And conveniently ignoring the yards and TDs, which are FAR superior to what Cutler did over 16 games. Yup. Good stuff.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:25 PM
Are we still talking about the puffy loser in Chicago?

Puffy? Like a marshmallow?

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 01:26 PM
http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/This_thread_sucks.jpg (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/This_thread_sucks.jpg)

http://www.epicallyfunnypictures.com/FunnyPictures/ThisThreadDelivers/ThisThreadSucks.jpg

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/WhyDidIComeToThisThread.gif (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/WhyDidIComeToThisThread.gif)

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/threadblows.jpg (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/threadblows.jpg)

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/Batmanrobinthreadsucks.jpg (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/Batmanrobinthreadsucks.jpg)

Popcorn Sutton
04-20-2010, 01:27 PM
And what exactly does this tell us? It sure looks to me like he was more turnover prone than Cutler in the few games he was asked to do more.

Look who's right in the middle of yet another hijacked thread...

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:27 PM
What? A whole 1 turnover per game, except the one game he was asked to throw the ball 100 times without his 3 top receivers on the field and with backup Olinemen galore. And conveniently ignoring the yards and TDs, which are FAR superior to what Cutler did over 16 games. Yup. Good stuff.

That isn't a comparison to Cutler big guy. You would have to break down Cutlers stats in the same way to make it a comparison....

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 01:29 PM
Damn, jhns got served by HAT.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:29 PM
You see, if you take these numbers here, divide them by 12, subtract this over here, multiply them by 3, and then get rid of the remainder, Orton is clearly on par with Cutler! Oh, but don't do that with Cutlers numbers, just Ortons.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:31 PM
Damn, jhns got served by HAT.

Wtf? Are we in a dance off now?

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:35 PM
Look who's right in the middle of yet another hijacked thread...

Well the thread creator was in on the hijacking with a few others well before I made a Cutler post. I'm sure it is all me though. Should I grab you a tissue? Does it hurt your feelings when a thread goes off topic?

Archer81
04-20-2010, 01:37 PM
Jay who?


:Broncos:

baja
04-20-2010, 01:37 PM
Well the thread creator was in on the hijacking with a few others well before I made a Cutler post. I'm sure it is all me though. Should I grab you a tissue? Does it hurt your feelings when a thread goes off topic?

show me

HAT
04-20-2010, 01:38 PM
And what exactly does this tell us? It sure looks to me like he was more turnover prone than Cutler in the few games he was asked to do more.

Wrong...I'm assuming the 4 games Bean listed were his highest attempts per game? ('Asked to do more)

If that's the case...Let's see how Jay fared in that Dept. in 2008....

.SD 36/50 350 4TD 1 INT
@KC 29/49 361 1TD 2 INT
@SD 33/49 316 1TD 2 INT
MIA 24/46 307 2TD 3 INT

JC 2008 4 most active games (attempts)
122/194 (62.8%), 333 YPG, 8TD, 8 INT

KO 2009 4 most active games (attempts)
123/186 (66.1%), 307 YPG, 8TD, 6 INT

INTERCHANGEABLE. :wave:

Archer81
04-20-2010, 01:40 PM
http://tinyurl.com/yygdmjn


:Broncos:

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:43 PM
Wrong...I'm assuming the 4 games Bean listed were his highest attempts per game? ('Asked to do more)

If that's the case...Let's see how Jay fared in that Dept. in 2008....

.SD 36/50 350 4TD 1 INT
@KC 29/49 361 1TD 2 INT
@SD 33/49 316 1TD 2 INT
MIA 24/46 307 2TD 3 INT

JC 2008 4 most active games (attempts)
122/194 (62.8%), 333 YPG, 8TD, 8 INT

KO 2009 4 most active games (attempts)
123/186 (66.1%), 307 YPG, 8TD, 6 INT

INTERCHANGEABLE. :wave:

LOL

You guys try to hard. You can clearly see Jay had more attempts which makes everything you just showed worthless.....

800 more yards. 6 more TDs. Not even close to interchangable. Then again, I like to work in reality. You guys play the numbers until you can find something that fits your flawed argument.

HAT
04-20-2010, 01:43 PM
Meh...Not really a thread-jack.

Current trade talk > led to judging past trade value > led to discussing the specific merits of a past trade > jhns crapping himself again.

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:45 PM
show me

No.

HAT
04-20-2010, 01:47 PM
LOL

You guys try to hard. You can clearly see Jay had more attempts which makes everything you just showed worthless.....

800 more yards. 6 more TDs. Not even close to interchangable. Then again, I like to work in reality. You guys play the numbers until you can find something that fits your flawed argument.

726 more yards on 75 extra attempts
4 more passing TD's
6 more INT's

That's the reality.

Archer81
04-20-2010, 01:50 PM
LOL

You guys try to hard. You can clearly see Jay had more attempts which makes everything you just showed worthless.....

800 more yards. 6 more TDs. Not even close to interchangable. Then again, I like to work in reality. You guys play the numbers until you can find something that fits your flawed argument.


http://tinyurl.com/nvbgrj


:Broncos:

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:51 PM
Fair enough but keep in mind Orton was forced to play very conservative in his first year in a very complex system. This year the wraps come off as a result you will see Orton doing the things you say he can not do.

Baja posting with the thread hijack before jhns.

Archer81
04-20-2010, 01:52 PM
No.


http://tinyurl.com/yk35t5u



:Broncos:

Archer81
04-20-2010, 01:54 PM
Baja posting with the thread hijack before jhns.

http://tinyurl.com/yg4d2dw


:Broncos:

jhns
04-20-2010, 01:57 PM
726 more yards on 75 extra attempts
4 more passing TD's
6 more INT's

That's the reality.

6 total TDs.

Alright, then let's add to that. Cutler was working with a younger team. Cutler had 2 less years in the league. That was Cutlers 3rd year to Ortons 5th..... Both had injuries and Orton had a far superior defense and a better special teams. Both ended 8-8.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree since this is going nowhere and I have some work to do. Maybe I will continue in an hour or three.

Archer81
04-20-2010, 01:59 PM
6 total TDs.

Alright, then let's add to that. Cutler was working with a younger team. Cutler had 2 less years in the league. That was Cutlers 3rd year to Ortons 5th..... Both had injuries and Orton had a far superior defense and a better special teams. Both ended 8-8.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree since this is going nowhere and I have some work to do. Maybe I will continue in an hour or three.


http://tinyurl.com/yjxn9g3


:Broncos:

jhns
04-20-2010, 02:02 PM
Nice, I now get everything posted twice and the ignore feature is now useless. You should continue that in every thread. It will make laughing and Tailgate and his "I'm going to beat you up from behind my monitor" fun again.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-20-2010, 03:48 PM
http://ucp.totfarm.com/pics/pic_12112104797934.jpg

Popps
04-20-2010, 03:55 PM
Another perfectly innocent Baja thread destroyed.

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 03:56 PM
Another perfectly innocent Baja thread destroyed.

To be fair baja, he makes so many that I think a few can go down the tubes!

jhns
04-20-2010, 04:29 PM
Another perfectly innocent Baja thread destroyed.

Well now it is. Way to go.

Steve Sewell
04-20-2010, 08:10 PM
LOL

You guys try to hard. You can clearly see Jay had more attempts which makes everything you just showed worthless.....

800 more yards. 6 more TDs. Not even close to interchangable. Then again, I like to work in reality. You guys play the numbers until you can find something that fits your flawed argument.

jumping on the bandwagon here:

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/23035/small/OlamOANOCozfyimhYBAnG3Q3o1_400.jpg?1255746728

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 08:28 PM
http://komplexify.com/images/2009/Invalid1.jpg

broncosteven
04-20-2010, 08:41 PM
Another perfectly innocent Baja thread destroyed.

Isn't the point of all Baja threads to stir the pot so he can sit back and entertain himself?

baja
04-20-2010, 08:51 PM
Isn't the point of all Baja threads to stir the pot so he can sit back and entertain himself?

No!

Sorry you see it that way.

But then your hero is a guy that lied about going to the moon.

Dagmar
04-20-2010, 09:07 PM
Isn't the point of all Baja threads to stir the pot so he can sit back and entertain himself?

Have you seen this?

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/photos/2010/04/shuttle-discoverys-15-day-miss.html

rastaman
04-21-2010, 03:51 AM
People who believe that trading Cutler and Marshall will automatically lead to us trading Clady are like the people who believe that if you allow gays to marry, pretty soon people will want to marry dogs.

The only way Clady or perhaps Doom are traded is if both believe that McD is low balling them contract wise with the NE philosophy of paying your star players as little as possible while trying to sell the team first BS. Thus both players leave for another team for more money! ;)

Clady will want to get paid top left tackle money as his peers and Doom will want to leverage his unique pass rushing skills to earn what his peers are getting as well.....especially if the Broncos aren't winning yet.

rastaman
04-21-2010, 03:57 AM
Jay who?


:Broncos:

Orton Who? :~ohyah!:

rastaman
04-21-2010, 04:05 AM
6 total TDs.

Alright, then let's add to that. Cutler was working with a younger team. Cutler had 2 less years in the league. That was Cutlers 3rd year to Ortons 5th..... Both had injuries and Orton had a far superior defense and a better special teams. Both ended 8-8.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree since this is going nowhere and I have some work to do. Maybe I will continue in an hour or three.

Don't worry, McD will try to cuddle and disguise KO's weaknesses and inconsistencies in 2010 like he did in 2009. However, sooner or later KO will be required to lead this team in crucial games where he's required to get it done and he will fold and disappoint. KC game the last week of the season showed me all I needed to know about Orton.

His two picks with one pick returned for a TD, while putting up great stats in terms of passing yards proves when forced to produced in a big game with playoff implications showed me that KO is a turn-over prone QB.

jhns
04-21-2010, 05:53 AM
His two picks with one pick returned for a TD, while putting up great stats in terms of passing yards proves when forced to produced in a big game with playoff implications showed me that KO is a turn-over prone QB.

Just to be clear about how bad he was when we opened it up for him, he had 3 picks and 2 went back for TDs.

Archer81
04-21-2010, 06:45 AM
Orton Who? :~ohyah!:


Yeah...because the quarterback who is not here has SO much to do with the team.

****tard.

:Broncos:

Archer81
04-21-2010, 06:48 AM
Don't worry, McD will try to cuddle and disguise KO's weaknesses and inconsistencies in 2010 like he did in 2009. However, sooner or later KO will be required to lead this team in crucial games where he's required to get it done and he will fold and disappoint. KC game the last week of the season showed me all I needed to know about Orton.

His two picks with one pick returned for a TD, while putting up great stats in terms of passing yards proves when forced to produced in a big game with playoff implications showed me that KO is a turn-over prone QB.


Have you watched football before?

Every headcoach attempts to mask his quarterback's weaknesses. Only you would consider it something McDaniels would do.

And if 12 ints makes a QB turnover prone...what does 26 of them do?

:Broncos:

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 09:41 AM
Don't worry, McD will try to cuddle and disguise KO's weaknesses and inconsistencies in 2010 like he did in 2009. However, sooner or later KO will be required to lead this team in crucial games where he's required to get it done and he will fold and disappoint. KC game the last week of the season showed me all I needed to know about Orton.

His two picks with one pick returned for a TD, while putting up great stats in terms of passing yards proves when forced to produced in a big game with playoff implications showed me that KO is a turn-over prone QB.

Yeah, KO really screwed the pooch in that brutal stretch of October games vs. Dallas, San Diego, and New England where we were playing against superior teams coming from behind.

Selective memory is selective.