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View Full Version : McClain vs. Spikes


cmhargrove
04-18-2010, 03:01 PM
OK, there seems to be a lot of love for McClain. Everyone talks about what a great pick he would be, and I keep challenging people to show me his good highlights. There have been no takers...

So, after looking on NFL.com (where they have mysteriously removed all the McClain videos) I found some on YouTube. As I have been saying, the only thing I ever see him do is run in space (behind a huge Alabama line), uncontested by O-linemen. He isn't tremendously gifted at anything - not speed, not power, not coverage, not instincts. Just my opinion. Form your own opinion with the following video:
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Now, let's look at another imperfect player, but one with more natural talent. The positives are that he has good natural instincts, he plays fast, and he can do everything an ILB should do (blitzing, taking on o-linemen, leveling devastating tackles, playing zone coverage) very well. His problem is that many times he doesn't perform well because he is out of position. I think that he can be "taught" to be a better player. Brandon Spikes:
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Go ahead. Tell me why McClain deserves to be a first round pick, when we could easily get a guy like Spikes in the second.

I apologize ahead of time for the music - it is horrible. Just turn your volume down.

cmhargrove
04-18-2010, 03:17 PM
I'll reply to my own thread with another ILB I would rather have than McClain - Micah Johnson from Kentucky. He can be had somewhere in rounds 3-5 and he impresses me much more than McClain.

This dude can hit like a freight train, runs incredibly fast for 250+, and is probably the best ILB in traffic.

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Killericon
04-18-2010, 03:21 PM
Wasn't Brandon Spikes all the hot **** last year?

Tombstone RJ
04-18-2010, 03:31 PM
I'll reply to my own thread with another ILB I would rather have than McClain - Micah Johnson from Kentucky. He can be had somewhere in rounds 3-5 and he impresses me much more than McClain.

This dude can hit like a freight train, runs incredibly fast for 250+, and is probably the best ILB in traffic.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dc7RoALOZfM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dc7RoALOZfM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

This is a highlight video which is nice. The other two vids are not (McClain and Spikes).

We'll just have to wait and see what the Broncos do at MLB.

Doggcow
04-18-2010, 03:51 PM
Not sold on McClain.

_Oro_
04-18-2010, 04:22 PM
I'm not a big fan of McClain, but posting a 5 minute video of lowlights will make anyone look bad.

misturanderson
04-18-2010, 04:29 PM
Did you just say that the guy that is smaller than McClain, but still ran slower than A LOT of linemen (not just LBers) has more natural talent?

If we pick up a MLB that couldn't break 5.0 in the 40 before the 4th round, I will be very irritated.

I can't believe that someone that is bitching about McClain's athleticism is advocating taking a guy that has done everything possible this offseason to make himself undraftable with how athletically below average he is.

Paladin
04-18-2010, 04:37 PM
How about neither. Maybe there are a couple of alternatives ot there. Sean Lee?

Frankly, if Pouncey is there and that is the area of need and he is projected to be a good player, why not take him at 11? Value doesn't win crap except for brownie points in a guessing game.....

ScottXray
04-18-2010, 04:44 PM
Neither McClain or Spikes were impressive in those videos . They reminded me of our 2007-08 defenses...overunning plays, out of position etc. But I'm sure they must have had better plays, and the scouts rate them highly. I really hope we use our first pick for an Impact player, whoever it is (Spiller, Bryant, whoever else).

bombay
04-18-2010, 04:50 PM
Spikes' 40 times at the combine were over 5 seconds both times. Maybe something was wrong, but that's offensive lineman territory.

TheChamp24
04-18-2010, 04:58 PM
Spikes is going to free fall, and I don't care what people think. Speed like that will make him fall, and it wouldn't surprise me if he fell to the middle rounds.

cmhargrove
04-18-2010, 05:01 PM
Spikes' 40 times at the combine were over 5 seconds both times. Maybe something was wrong, but that's offensive lineman territory.

I can't explain Spikes' 40 times, and it is worrysome. However, when I watch him play, I see a guy that can easily chase plays sideline to sideline. I don't see that in McClain so take that for what its worth.

I remember a few years back when Patrick Willis came out and everyone knew he deserved to be picked at 11 (if not higher). I don't see a single thing that tells me McClain has that type of value.

I'll just feel much better Thursday night if I don't hear his name.

cmhargrove
04-18-2010, 05:10 PM
Spikes' 40 times at the combine were over 5 seconds both times. Maybe something was wrong, but that's offensive lineman territory.

Also, for the record, Maualuga put up some slow numbers at the combine last year, and he turned out alright. I tend to look at them in film, playing ball, over what they do in shorts and running shoes.

Spikes plays faster football.

Hamrob
04-18-2010, 05:11 PM
4.6 vs 5.0 40 time.

3down player vs 2down player.

McClain > Spikes

Bigdawg26
04-18-2010, 05:16 PM
I'll reply to my own thread with another ILB I would rather have than McClain - Micah Johnson from Kentucky. He can be had somewhere in rounds 3-5 and he impresses me much more than McClain.

This dude can hit like a freight train, runs incredibly fast for 250+, and is probably the best ILB in traffic.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dc7RoALOZfM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dc7RoALOZfM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

This guy seems like a player!

Hamrob
04-18-2010, 05:27 PM
I like Johnson...but, I don't think he's the athelete that McClain is. McClain can get after the QB in addition to stopping the run and plugging the middle. The biggest worry is his health.

I'd be happy with Johnson in the 4th or 5th, but I don't see the speed there. He's instinctive and launches his body...but not all that fast.

Spikes looks like he reacts slow to the ball and is slow.

As for 40 time...really, we should look at their 10 and 20yd splits...because that's what matters for a LB.

broncowill
04-18-2010, 07:03 PM
i was ok with mcclain untill i looked up his statistics. 52 of is 105 tackles are assists. this scares me away from mcclain a little because for the 11th pick i want a guy who can get the job done by himself and not in a group, i have never actually watched mcclain except for the national championship so i dont really know how good this guy really is but based on this i would much rather have johnson later in the draft than draft mcclain with the 11th pick.

MVP-06
04-18-2010, 07:19 PM
I addressed this in my mock draft. I think we need to go with the combo of Bryant/Spikes instead of McClain/whoever else is left at WR. I dont care what Spikes 40 times were. He played in the SEC and had no problems keeping up. His football speed is all that matters, not his track.

Dedhed
04-18-2010, 07:26 PM
I'm not a big fan of McClain, but posting a 5 minute video of lowlights will make anyone look bad.

All those lowlights are taken from 3 games.

Dedhed
04-18-2010, 07:32 PM
There is nothing authoritative about McClain's game. I've looked everywhere, and I still haven't seen a single play he's made where he's been touched by a player on offense. If he's touched (and sometimes just close to being touched) he's completely neutralized.

He doesn't tackle with any authority, doesn't pursue with any authority, and doesn't read the play with any authority. I have him as a top 3 overrated player going into this draft.

broncowill
04-18-2010, 07:49 PM
i would love taking johnson somewhere in the draft. really the only negative i have heard about him is his pass coverage, and we have woodyard who can do that.

Great13
04-18-2010, 08:38 PM
There is nothing authoritative about McClain's game. I've looked everywhere, and I still haven't seen a single play he's made where he's been touched by a player on offense. If he's touched (and sometimes just close to being touched) he's completely neutralized.

He doesn't tackle with any authority, doesn't pursue with any authority, and doesn't read the play with any authority. I have him as a top 3 overrated player going into this draft.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Arm tackles for days on his highlight reels... tackles that would easily be broken in the NFL. For all his speed and awareness, it seems he never arrives at the ball right on time to lay a clean "pop & wrap" tackle.

Bigdawg26
04-18-2010, 08:56 PM
I addressed this in my mock draft. I think we need to go with the combo of Bryant/Spikes instead of McClain/whoever else is left at WR. I dont care what Spikes 40 times were. He played in the SEC and had no problems keeping up. His football speed is all that matters, not his track.

Yeah that sounds nice but Spikes and Bryant are extremely talented but have maturity issues and I can tell you right now McDaniels aint havin that. I think McClain and Thomas (if we trade up to get him) would be the ideal situation. They are both big, talented, high character guys who McDaniels likes to build this team around. My only problem with McClain is that he doesn't have any flare or pop in his hits to be 6-4 255. He just seems like he's wrapping ppl up instead of exploding through guys like spikes and that guy micah johnson.

Tombstone RJ
04-18-2010, 08:57 PM
I think McClain is being hyped because of his size. Also, you have to remember he was the leader of a very good defense which means he made all the audibles and adjustments on the field. So, if he ran a great defense though leadership and smarts and by putting others around him in the best position to make a play then that speaks for itself.

Basically, he helped a good defense be great. If he didn't have to make a phenominal play or tackle 10 times a game doesn't that mean he did his job? I dunno, hard to tell...

_Oro_
04-18-2010, 09:13 PM
All those lowlights are taken from 3 games.

Just playing devil's advocate here but...

I'm sure he didn't do anything good in those 3 games either.

Broncoman13
04-18-2010, 10:08 PM
Spikes played and started for the Florida Gators and was a concensus top 25 player until his speed became an issue. To me, that suggests he is a helluva instinctual player. You don't make plays on a consistent basis in the SEC unless you can really play ball. Likewise, you don't play at Florida and start for three years unless you have the goods.

My preference would be weatherspoon if we are going LB, but ultimately, I prefer Dez Bryant.

Carmelo15
04-18-2010, 11:33 PM
The two positions I really think we need to address are C and ILB. I have really watched a lot of film on ILB in this draft.

Rolando McClain does not look like a top 15 pick to me at all. He is good a putting himself into position, but he really looks slow and too reactive to me. Also when he tackles he never impresses me. He frequently absorbs the hit and pulls the guy down. If we trade down and got McClain I wouldn't be mad, but at 11 he would be a huge reach.

Brandon Spikes is somewhat of the opposite of Rolando McClain. He seems to overpursue far too much and puts himself out of position. He is much better than McClain in coverage, but the TED ILB is used in coverage very litttle. Against the run he is way too easily engulfed by blockers and that really has me question his ability to play ILB in the 3-4. Watching film on him has him as a mid-late 2nd in my opinion. While I don't put much into 40 times, particularly at his position, a 5.0 drops him to a 3rd round prospect at best in my eyes.

Micah Johnson is a playmaker. If you watch him make tackles, not only does he wrap up, but 80% of the time he runs THROUGH the ballcarrier, as if the ballcarrier hits a wall. This is one of his greatest strengths along with his ability to stack and shed. He takes on blocks and still gets to the ball carrier far better than both McClain and Spikes. His greatest weakness is coverage, something the TED ILB does very little, and even though it is considered one of his weaknesses, he is better in coverage than McClain. Johnson puts himself in position AND makes the play. Micah Johnson is a much better prospect than Spikes.

Spikes looks to me as a 3rd-4th prospect. As far as McClain, I like him ok. He seems to be a safe pick, where he would not bust. But I never see him being a probowler. Selecting a LB at 11, or anywhere in the 1st round means you think he will be a probowler. I see him as a solid starter in this league, but not an impact player. I expect a LB drafted that high, or any player drafted that high to be an impact player. Micah Johnson fits into the TED ILB position of the 3-4 very well. He stacks and sheds, makes the tackle. He is great against the run and great at playing in traffic. That is what you want your TED ILB to do. He also gets to the ballcarrier much quicker than both McClain and Spikes, 4.99 speed regardless. Not only does he get there quicker, but he is also a much better tackler than both men. Like I said he is much better prospect than Spikes in my eyes. So if we get him at #80 I will be very happy. If we get him at 114 I would be ecstatic. Like McClain, he will be a solid starter in this league. Unlike McClain, I see his ceiling as being much higher. A potential pro-bowler in my eyes. He has the ability to make that type of impact. If drafted to the right team, he can be the best 3-4 ILB to come out of this draft. (Sean Witherspoon is not a fit for the 3-4 TED ILB or either 3-4 OLB positions. Unless we plan on getting rid of D.J. he does not fit our team.)

cartel
04-19-2010, 07:41 AM
Are we for sure we need an ILB at 11? If Ayers starts at OLB and we move Haggan inside, do we need mcclain or spikes?

cmhargrove
04-19-2010, 07:46 AM
I'm not a big fan of McClain, but posting a 5 minute video of lowlights will make anyone look bad.

I agree with you 100%, but here is my challenge (to all).

Find me one single shred of video evidence that shows me he is worth the 11 pick. Any video, any game he dominated, any highlight reel. He is projected as the top LB in this draft and I haven't seen a single video that convinced me of that.

So, I agree with you that three games is not enough evidence, but please produce one positive reel and I will reconsider.

Remember, a couple years ago, the #11 pick was Patrick Willis. Do you consider McClain anywhere near the level of Willis?

cmhargrove
04-19-2010, 07:47 AM
Are we for sure we need an ILB at 11? If Ayers starts at OLB and we move Haggan inside, do we need mcclain or spikes?

We need an ILB in this draft, but I don't think the value is in the first round for sure.

elsid13
04-19-2010, 07:47 AM
I still believe that Larson might be the starter at TED spot when all is said and done. I hear the talk about Haggen but I think Larson fits the mode of ILB that McDaniels wants.

TheChamp24
04-19-2010, 07:53 AM
Personally, I do think McClain is overrated and not a top 15 pick. Patrick Willis was picked at #11 and was 10 times the prospect McClain is.

cmhargrove
04-19-2010, 07:53 AM
I still believe that Larson might be the starter at TED spot when all is said and done. I hear the talk about Haggen but I think Larson fits the mode of ILB that McDaniels wants.

A couple things about this.

First, we know that McD likes Larsen a lot.

Second, we seem to forget his award winning game against the Falcons where he was occasionally out of position, but otherwise played a very good game.

Third, the Haggan thing is very intriguing. If he gets pushed inside - might we actually be looking at another OLB prospect? We all assume that our top priority is ILB, but Martindale might see otherwise.

TheReverend
04-19-2010, 08:16 AM
Personally, I do think McClain is overrated and not a top 15 pick. Patrick Willis was picked at #11 and was 10 times the prospect McClain is.

^^^

Lolad
04-19-2010, 08:21 AM
A couple things about this.

First, we know that McD likes Larsen a lot.

Second, we seem to forget his award winning game against the Falcons where he was occasionally out of position, but otherwise played a very good game.

Third, the Haggan thing is very intriguing. If he gets pushed inside - might we actually be looking at another OLB prospect? We all assume that our top priority is ILB, but Martindale might see otherwise.

Larsen most likely wont see the field. Unless we draft another FB or sign an UFA after the draft

chrisp
04-19-2010, 09:40 AM
I'm not 100% sold on McLain at #11, but one of the things he's lauded for is his knowledge of the game. being able to recognise where the ball is going is an essential talent in an inside linebacker. I don't think anyone has him rated as a top prospect based on athleticism alone, I think his smarts and instincts are what puts him at the top.

I am concerned about the suggestion that he's not really an authorative tackler and maybe not tough and nasty enough for the NFL, but I can't believe that credible draft experts like Mayock would still have him rated top of their boards if that was the case - some of these guys watch more tape than anybody here.

In fact I'd really like to see what Mayock has to say about the linebackers - hopefully there will be a breakdown on nfl.com soon.....

Agree though that this year we don't seem to have a sure-fire willis type prospect worth taking at #11, which is a shame because a 3-4 defense needs bona fide stars at linebacker....