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View Full Version : McDaniels: "We look at all our draft picks on a two year scale"


Kaylore
04-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Listening to the McDaniels press conference and I found this particularly interesting and odd that no one has covered it. McDaniels says several times they make all their picks based on what type of player they think that player can be in two years and draft according.

It might seem like no big deal, but it represents a clear somewhat unusual departure from many draft day battle plans. A lot of teams look for immediate impact starters in round one. Future starting reserves and incredibly athletic project players in round two and three and so forth.

This is critical to predicting how we are going to draft because it essentially means Denver puts a premium on players' ability to play in our system and on having a high proverbial "ceiling."

This explains picks like McBath and Smith whereby they believe that they will really blossom in years two and three.

Now does that justify those picks? Not necessarily, but it at least explains where we're coming from and how we're looking at things. The fact that they put an emphasis on system compatibility also explains the comparatively shorter draft board.

I guess it's one of those things that we'll need another few years to really evaluate how this plan works, probably moreso than others.

extralife
04-17-2010, 01:46 PM
translation: "our '09 draft sucked on purpose dawg just you wait. and oh yeah, don't expect anything from those picks we got for Marshall."

TheReverend
04-17-2010, 01:46 PM
It's a very smart approach and I like it. And I think you meant Ayers and Smith? McBath saw more playing time than both of them combined and had a fantastic rookie campaign that more than justified his selection.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-17-2010, 01:46 PM
I really am getting the feeling we'll reach on Sean Weatherspoon in round one. And i have a feeling that he'll be an Al Wilson-esque fan favorite. The more I watch of this guy, the more I like him. I cant imagine he'll be a bust. Plus, when McD mentioned him in the press conference, he got a hard on.

baja
04-17-2010, 01:47 PM
Listening to the McDaniels press conference and I found this particularly interesting and odd that no one has covered it. McDaniels says several times they make all their picks based on what type of player they think that player can be in two years and draft according.

It might seem like no big deal, but it represents a clear somewhat unusual departure from many draft day battle plans. A lot of teams look for immediate impact starters in round one. Future starting reserves and incredibly athletic project players in round two and three and so forth.

This is critical to predicting how we are going to draft because it essentially means Denver puts a premium on players' ability to play in our system and on having a high proverbial "ceiling."

This explains picks like McBath and Smith whereby they believe that they will really blossom in years two and three.

Now does that justify those picks? Not necessarily, but it at least explains where we're coming from and how we're looking at things. The fact that they put an emphasis on system compatibility also explains the comparatively shorter draft board.

I guess it's one of those things that we'll need another few years to really evaluate how this plan works, probably moreso than others.

Good perception Khan. PM Mock with this will ya. ;D

SonOfLe-loLang
04-17-2010, 01:52 PM
Good perception Khan. PM Mock with this will ya. ;D

Whats the point...this will be mock's response.

Raccoons have purple featherz. Beavis eats alligator nails. Pieces of grass make my carpet sneeze. Milkshake.

GreatBronco16
04-17-2010, 01:54 PM
Whats the point...this will be mock's response.

Raccoons have purple featherz. Beavis eats alligator nails. Pieces of grass make my carpet sneeze. Milkshake.

:rofl:

You hit that nail on the head.:thumbs:

baja
04-17-2010, 01:56 PM
Whats the point...this will be mock's response.

Raccoons have purple featherz. Beavis eats alligator nails. Pieces of grass make my carpet sneeze. Milkshake.


Ya it does look like some gray matter synapse misfiring going with poor old Mock

Think they call it wet brain.

NFLBRONCO
04-17-2010, 01:57 PM
Which translates I'd rather reach for need then BPA approach. We'll see what happens.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-17-2010, 01:58 PM
Which translates I'd rather reach for need then BPA approach.

How do you possibly figure that? Especially considering with how he drafted last year

HAT
04-17-2010, 01:59 PM
Whats the point...this will be mock's response.

Raccoons have purple featherz. Beavis eats alligator nails. Pieces of grass make my carpet sneeze. Milkshake.

Just add a "buy a clue" in there & it's perfect. :thumbs:

Hercules Rockefeller
04-17-2010, 02:04 PM
Which translates I'd rather reach for need then BPA approach. We'll see what happens.

More like: Players are drafted for more than their rookie seasons. Anyone who writes off a draft or a player after one year is a moron.

And Ayers was always considered a project anyway, so I do love to see all the posts that whine about what he did last year.

Bronco CB40
04-17-2010, 02:11 PM
When Denver's scouts evaluate prospects in-person, they are also writing their reports based on their two-year projection. It's not just the front office that is utilizing this approach.

ScottXray
04-17-2010, 02:12 PM
I read this as "until Jarvis Moss has 2 years under my program, he is still on the roster."

Kidding. I guess since Jarvis already got paid we may as well see if He CAN develope, at least until his contract is out.

On the other hand it is a sensible approach. But hardly any high round picks for any NFL team ever get cut after only one season. The only difference is that he is saying he won't necessarily take BPA, if it doesn't fit the teams needs, rather he might go after someone that won't pay immediate dividends, but should after 1 or two full years. Kind of a long term view....hope he actually does well enough to be here after 3 years are done.

broncosteven
04-17-2010, 02:12 PM
What happens if there is a lock out next year?

Hercules Rockefeller
04-17-2010, 02:13 PM
What happens if there is a lock out next year?

There will still be a draft if that's what you're asking.

Florida_Bronco
04-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Just add a "buy a clue" in there & it's perfect. :thumbs:

Almost as good as "STFU nitwit" LOL

Bronco CB40
04-17-2010, 02:23 PM
The only pick the Broncos made in '09 that I had a beef with was Richard Quinn. McDaniels stresses the importance of versatility and I don't think Quinn did enough as an overall tight end to justify the investment.

It's easier to teach a run blocker how to catch than vice versa so I can see the argument for taking him.

It seems like every NFL team has tried turn some stud pass receiver into a blocker at TE and it's rarely worked out. Meanwhile, guys like Jason Dunn have carved out nice careers just doing the dirty work inside.

Run blocking is a lost art for TEs so I am keeping an open mind about Quinn.

Kaylore
04-17-2010, 02:23 PM
It's a very smart approach and I like it. And I think you meant Ayers and Smith? McBath saw more playing time than both of them combined and had a fantastic rookie campaign that more than justified his selection.

Ayers too, but remember McBath wasn't supposed to play as much as he did. He was buried behind two veterans who were supposed to start all year, and the book on him coming out was he was productive and athletic but needed refining. They never meant for him to play as much as he did and be as successful in what little time he saw. That was just a bonus.

Kaylore
04-17-2010, 02:26 PM
The only difference is that he is saying he won't necessarily take BPA, if it doesn't fit the teams needs, rather he might go after someone that won't pay immediate dividends, but should after 1 or two full years.

You got the second half right. Their list of best players available is based on the players' ability to fit into their system and develop in the pros. All their picks will be BPA - for the Broncos.

I'm kind of shocked no one else is talking about the press conference he gave. It's wild the detail he went into on things. I mean at one point he basically says they will not be taking a tackle in the first two days of the draft because they like Harris and Clady. Just like that. The whole thing is full of that kind of stuff that he just puts out there, and no one on here seems to have even watched the press conference, much less talked about it.

NFLBRONCO
04-17-2010, 02:33 PM
More like: Players are drafted for more than their rookie seasons. Anyone who writes off a draft or a player after one year is a moron.

And Ayers was always considered a project anyway, so I do love to see all the posts that whine about what he did last year.

Where did I say anything about the 09 draft class???????

Only thing I hated in 09 was them being unprepared disorganized and trade.

They might draft guys I'm not wild about but, that fades 2 days after draft then I hope they are great pro's for us.

I give draft picks several years to come on before I rip on them.

I was just saying if they approach drafting 2 yrs away more then instant impact types to me says they are more likely to reach/project for need vs BPA but, we'll see thursday.

Could Pierre Paul be a sleeper at 11.

I don't have not enough background on their drafts yet to get a better feel as far as our drafting.

I would go Spiller Dez or Thomas at 11 or trade down if it was me.

I could see us going C G LB at 11 very easily

Soul-Bronco
04-17-2010, 02:36 PM
You got the second half right. Their list of best players available is based on the players' ability to fit into their system and develop in the pros. All their picks will be BPA - for the Broncos.

I'm kind of shocked no one else is talking about the press conference he gave. It's wild the detail he went into on things. I mean at one point he basically says they will not be taking a tackle in the first two days of the draft because they like Harris and Clady. Just like that. The whole thing is full of that kind of stuff that he just puts out there, and no one on here seems to have even watched the press conference, much less talked about it.

Dont you know Kaylore, its not cool to talk about all the good traits Mcd has

Hes nothing but a mc poopy pants. . . . . . start a thread with the title why you hate Mcd and youll have 5 pages within the hour.

Just the way it is, kinda sad really

bowtown
04-17-2010, 02:39 PM
Where did I say anything about the 09 draft class???????

Only thing I hated in 09 was them being unprepared disorganized and trade.

They might draft guys I'm not wild about but, that fades 2 days after draft then I hope they are great pro's for us.

I give draft picks several years to come on before I rip on them.

I was just saying if they approach drafting 2 yrs away more then instant impact types to me says they are more likely to draft for need vs BPA but, we'll see thursday.

Right but if this is their philosophy how does your hypothesis hold up to the one draft they have had? Where in last year's draft can you point them reaching for need? I will agree that they reached, but part of my frustration was that they seemed to inexplicably reach for positions that they specifically did not need.

Kaylore
04-17-2010, 02:40 PM
Dont you know Kaylore, its not cool to talk about all the good traits Mcd has

Hes nothing but a mc poopy pants. . . . . . start a thread with the title why you hate Mcd and youll have 5 pages within the hour.

Just the way it is, kinda sad really

I know what you're saying but even if I was a hater I would want to hear what he's doing. He's very specific and pretty clear. I know it's long but everyone should listen to it, if for nothing else than to hear him make of the reporter in the middle of the first half.

SouthStndJunkie
04-17-2010, 02:40 PM
If the 2009 draft picks don't look good this year it will be:

McDaniels: "We look at all our draft picks on a three year scale"

epicSocialism4tw
04-17-2010, 02:46 PM
You got the second half right. Their list of best players available is based on the players' ability to fit into their system and develop in the pros. All their picks will be BPA - for the Broncos.

I'm kind of shocked no one else is talking about the press conference he gave. It's wild the detail he went into on things. I mean at one point he basically says they will not be taking a tackle in the first two days of the draft because they like Harris and Clady. Just like that. The whole thing is full of that kind of stuff that he just puts out there, and no one on here seems to have even watched the press conference, much less talked about it.

Its hard to stomach so much fail.

That's probably why people didnt watch McD. Its no wonder that people arent interested. They are losing interest in the Broncos because they dont see this thing getting better, they see it getting worse. Its hard to fault people for not wanting to waste their time watching something that causes them unneccesary frustration.

Kaylore
04-17-2010, 02:49 PM
Its hard to stomach so much fail.
Yeah I know. He took a crappy 8-8 team and "ruined them" turning them into an 8-8 team with a harder schedule. My goodness, when will it end?

SonOfLe-loLang
04-17-2010, 02:49 PM
Its hard to stomach so much fail.

That's probably why people didnt watch McD. Its no wonder that people arent interested. They are losing interest in the Broncos because they dont see this thing getting better, they see it getting worse. Its hard to fault people for not wanting to waste their time watching something that causes them unneccesary frustration.

Ummm or maybe because it aired in the middle of a work day and many probably didn't even know about it?

Bob's your Information Minister
04-17-2010, 02:52 PM
That is a load of bull**** spin after he drafted Moreno.

SouthStndJunkie
04-17-2010, 02:54 PM
Maybe nobody listened to it because the weeks leading up to the draft are the time for NFL GMs and coaches to lie through their teeth about everything.

It would be foolish of McDaniels to detail his plan and then execute it just like he said he would.

bpc
04-17-2010, 02:57 PM
I like the thought process and i'm willing to wait to see how last year's class turns out. Hopefully it does well this year, especially Smith, Ayers and Quinn in the next year.

NFLBRONCO
04-17-2010, 03:05 PM
For 11 I'd love

Spiller
Thomas
(My favorites at 11)(Even though my #1 wish is to trade down)

I'd be ok with at 11 (If we can't move)

Williams
Dez
Graham

I'd hate at 11

C or G
Witherspoon
Haden
Odrick
McClain

Boy no wonder I'm hoping to trade down.

bowtown
04-17-2010, 03:08 PM
I like the thought process and i'm willing to wait to see how last year's class turns out. Hopefully it does well this year, especially Smith, Ayers and Quinn in the next year.

I don't know who you are or how you got on to bpc's account, but welcome.

WolfpackGuy
04-17-2010, 03:12 PM
Oddly, he also implemented the "let the Colts start fast" strategy in the December loss.

Not sure where he came up with that one?

Popps
04-17-2010, 03:55 PM
It's the Bill B./Parcells mindset.

Pretty standard stuff. Same reason I've been blasting the chicken-littles freaking out about last year's draft. We won't know how good last year was for at least another year. Thus far, it looks like we've got 4-5 solid contributors, which is already a good sign.

epicSocialism4tw
04-17-2010, 04:05 PM
Yeah I know. He took a crappy 8-8 team and "ruined them" turning them into an 8-8 team with a harder schedule. My goodness, when will it end?

It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to reduce your argument to something so meaningless.

_Oro_
04-17-2010, 04:30 PM
There was some discussion here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=90804 (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=90804)

theAPAOps5
04-17-2010, 04:40 PM
It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to reduce your argument to something so meaningless.

Ah can't come up with a response I take it.

oubronco
04-17-2010, 04:44 PM
Whats the point...this will be mock's response.

Raccoons have purple featherz. Beavis eats alligator nails. Pieces of grass make my carpet sneeze. Milkshake.

:~ohyah!: good one

Dagmar
04-17-2010, 04:45 PM
It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to reduce your argument to something so meaningless.

http://jasoncosper.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/drama_llama.jpg

CEH
04-17-2010, 04:47 PM
Yeah I know. He took a crappy 8-8 team and "ruined them" turning them into an 8-8 team with a harder schedule. My goodness, when will it end?

Who gets credit for taking a 6-0 team to 8-8?
We know teams don't gameplan the first 4 games (according to NFL players like Stink) so this season we'll really see if our team is closer to 5-11 or 11-5. I know another 8-8 season should not sit well with Bowlen

Haroldthebarrel
04-17-2010, 04:56 PM
Listening to the McDaniels press conference and I found this particularly interesting and odd that no one has covered it. McDaniels says several times they make all their picks based on what type of player they think that player can be in two years and draft according.

It might seem like no big deal, but it represents a clear somewhat unusual departure from many draft day battle plans. A lot of teams look for immediate impact starters in round one. Future starting reserves and incredibly athletic project players in round two and three and so forth.

This is critical to predicting how we are going to draft because it essentially means Denver puts a premium on players' ability to play in our system and on having a high proverbial "ceiling."

This explains picks like McBath and Smith whereby they believe that they will really blossom in years two and three.

Now does that justify those picks? Not necessarily, but it at least explains where we're coming from and how we're looking at things. The fact that they put an emphasis on system compatibility also explains the comparatively shorter draft board.

I guess it's one of those things that we'll need another few years to really evaluate how this plan works, probably moreso than others.


That has pretty much been the Patriots way of drafting. If you look at their records very few started early.(for some reason their OL do though)
Interestingly neither of Warren or Wilfork did start much their rookie season as they both were playing behind veterans. Seymour did though. Brace had two starts this year.
(Coincidentally Steelers use the same approach and began it)

Essentially this leads me to guess the Broncos will look at the defensive line in this draft. They might also look at receivers and OL but two years down the road. I suspect they will particularly look at players who will be better two year down the road while being a role player on special downs this year.
Though what do i know:)

IHaveALight
04-17-2010, 05:15 PM
Maybe nobody listened to it because the weeks leading up to the draft are the time for NFL GMs and coaches to lie through their teeth about everything.

It would be foolish of McDaniels to detail his plan and then execute it just like he said he would.

We'll see. If he drafts McClain, Witherspoon, Dez or Tebow he showed his hand big time.
If he goes with Spiller or a tackle then it was all a smoke screen.

Kaylore
04-17-2010, 05:17 PM
It would be foolish of McDaniels to detail his plan and then execute it just like he said he would.

He didn't say anything that most NFL GM's didn't suspect already.

Who gets credit for taking a 6-0 team to 8-8?
We know teams don't gameplan the first 4 games (according to NFL players like Stink) so this season we'll really see if our team is closer to 5-11 or 11-5. I know another 8-8 season should not sit well with Bowlen
The same guy that got the credit for going 6-0 gets the blame for losing the last four games in row. If anything you made the point that it's not McDaniels' fault, though.

The early part of the season your scheme can hide some things but by the end of the year it really comes down to who has the better players and we were exposed. That doesn't excuse losing to the Raiders and Chiefs at home, and I agree that if we're looking at 8-8 next year it's time to look at other options at head coach.

Having said that, there's no question he got the sum to perform better than the parts. He assembled the coaching staff and hand picked the free agents and they all were hits. He's done that again. Looking at the schedule many here predicted with a transition year we would be around 4-12 and maybe 6-10. Suddenly he's 8-8 and you and others are all indignant like he was supposed to do better than that in his first year. I for one liked that even our loses were by small margins and we played very well against good teams.

Again, close isn't good enough so I agree he has to get better, but I laugh at all the people that said we would suck last year, and then after getting the exact same record as the year before they complain that McDaniels is ruining the team.

CEH
04-17-2010, 05:27 PM
He didn't say anything that most NFL GM's didn't suspect already.


The same guy that got the credit for going 6-0 gets the blame for losing the last four games in row. If anything you made the point that it's not McDaniels' fault, though.

The early part of the season your scheme can hide some things but by the end of the year it really comes down to who has the better players and we were exposed. That doesn't excuse losing to the Raiders and Chiefs at home, and I agree that if we're looking at 8-8 next year it's time to look at other options at head coach.

Having said that, there's no question he got the sum to perform better than the parts. He assembled the coaching staff and hand picked the free agents and they all were hits. He's done that again. Looking at the schedule many here predicted with a transition year we would be around 4-12 and maybe 6-10. Suddenly he's 8-8 and you and others are all indignant like he was supposed to do better than that in his first year. I for one liked that even our loses were by small margins and we played very well against good teams.

Again, close isn't good enough so I agree he has to get better, but I laugh at all the people that said we would suck last year, and then after getting the exact same record as the year before they complain that McDaniels is ruining the team.

I just pointed out the other side .

Wow we are 6-0 we just need to go 2-8 to get to 8-8 like Mike Shanahan
Sorry but I don't buy that weak logic.
Had he went 2-8 then 6-0 big difference between 6-0 then 2-8. Leave many questions about the upcoming season

When you start 6-0 yes I expect better.

Losing to SD, KC and OAK at home as never happened expect one time in the 90's when we lost to all 3 but beat SEA

Josh it looks like will either be great or fail miserably

gyldenlove
04-17-2010, 05:28 PM
It's the Bill B./Parcells mindset.

Pretty standard stuff. Same reason I've been blasting the chicken-littles freaking out about last year's draft. We won't know how good last year was for at least another year. Thus far, it looks like we've got 4-5 solid contributors, which is already a good sign.

Which 4 or 5 solid contributors? Moreno, he contributed, Mcbath in limited time showed promise, Bruton, if you call a special teamer a solid contributor, but beyond that it is a stretch to call anyone a solid contributor.

Anyway, the reason most people are freaking out is that it is much more feasible that a decent player becomes a good player in a year than that a bad player becomes a good player, it could happen no doubt about that, but what are the odds?

NYBronco
04-17-2010, 05:28 PM
The only pick the Broncos made in '09 that I had a beef with was Richard Quinn. McDaniels stresses the importance of versatility and I don't think Quinn did enough as an overall tight end to justify the investment.

It's easier to teach a run blocker how to catch than vice versa so I can see the argument for taking him.

It seems like every NFL team has tried turn some stud pass receiver into a blocker at TE and it's rarely worked out. Meanwhile, guys like Jason Dunn have carved out nice careers just doing the dirty work inside.

Run blocking is a lost art for TEs so I am keeping an open mind about Quinn.


Maybe it wasn't so much what Quinn didn't do as much as what Graham was able to accomplish in performance and mentoring. We all know that Scheffler wasn't much better and he is a well seasoned veteran. I have patience with Quinn and Smith for that matter.

Lev Vyvanse
04-17-2010, 05:28 PM
It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to reduce your argument to something so meaningless.

Wins and losses? LOL.

epicSocialism4tw
04-17-2010, 05:31 PM
Ah can't come up with a response I take it.

:rofl:

Yeah. You nailed it, chico.

epicSocialism4tw
04-17-2010, 05:33 PM
Wins and losses?

"Wins and Losses" that were highly attributable to the Broncos defense.

This team collapsed at the feet of the lowly Kansas City Chiefs and the Oakland Raiders with the playoffs on the line.

Lev Vyvanse
04-17-2010, 05:45 PM
"Wins and Losses" that were highly attributable to the Broncos defense.

This team collapsed at the feet of the lowly Kansas City Chiefs and the Oakland Raiders with the playoffs on the line.

Kind of like 2008?

Popps
04-17-2010, 05:47 PM
Look, folks... sh#t didn't work for the last 10 years.

Hence, we're changing s#it.

Deal with it or gtfo.

ColoradoDarin
04-17-2010, 05:47 PM
Which 4 or 5 solid contributors? Moreno, he contributed, Mcbath in limited time showed promise, Bruton, if you call a special teamer a solid contributor, but beyond that it is a stretch to call anyone a solid contributor.

Anyway, the reason most people are freaking out is that it is much more feasible that a decent player becomes a good player in a year than that a bad player becomes a good player, it could happen no doubt about that, but what are the odds?

The NFL is full of players like that. For one, Trevor Pryce wasn't even good enough to get on the field his first year. Rod Smith spent a year on the practice squad. Heck Favre got traded after 1 year in Atlanta.

Hercules Rockefeller
04-17-2010, 05:52 PM
Which 4 or 5 solid contributors? Moreno, he contributed, Mcbath in limited time showed promise, Bruton, if you call a special teamer a solid contributor, but beyond that it is a stretch to call anyone a solid contributor.


Just because it doesn't show up in the box score does not mean that Ayers wasn't solid last year.

But then I'd guess people prefer a Shanny draft class where it appeared to be a hell of a lot better after Year One than it was 3 or 4 years down the line.

Dagmar
04-17-2010, 05:53 PM
Jesus Skillet, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7E-M6s5XewQ/SyEuQe0Fr5I/AAAAAAAAADk/M_wWR5-LlPI/s400/deal+with+it.gif

baja
04-17-2010, 05:56 PM
Jesus Skillet, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7E-M6s5XewQ/SyEuQe0Fr5I/AAAAAAAAADk/M_wWR5-LlPI/s400/deal+with+it.gif

Jesus skillet? How is that prepared?

...and is it kosher?

watermock
04-17-2010, 05:57 PM
If the 2009 draft picks don't look good this year it will be:

McDaniels: "We look at all our draft picks on a three year scale"

And he won't be able to give them 1 year tenders the next.

gyldenlove
04-17-2010, 06:07 PM
The NFL is full of players like that. For one, Trevor Pryce wasn't even good enough to get on the field his first year. Rod Smith spent a year on the practice squad. Heck Favre got traded after 1 year in Atlanta.

The NFL is also full of players who made contributions as rookies, lets look at our own Broncos starters:

Orton played significantly as a rookie, Clady did, Graham did, Royal did, Gaffney did, Buckhalter did, Moreno did, Champ did, Goodman did, DJ did, Dumervil did, Dawkins did.

Known starters who didn't do much as rookies:

Ryan Harris, Chris Kuper, Renaldo Hill (only 1 start), Jamal Williams, Haggan, Ayers, Bannan, Mcbean

I make that 12 players who contributed as rookies and 8 who didn't, C, LG are unknown so they can't be counted either way.

Based on that I would say it is more likely that a player who contributes a lot as a rookie will be a good player than a player who didn't do much as a rookie becomes a good player.

epicSocialism4tw
04-17-2010, 06:10 PM
Look, folks... sh#t didn't work for the last 10 years.

Hence, we're changing s#it.

Deal with it or gtfo.

Its okay, dude.

If someone disagrees with McD, it shouldnt be the end of your world.

McD has left the door wide open for criticism. No matter how hard you guys fight it, its gonna come. This is the Denver Broncos we're talking about. AFC Championships are the standard. This is McD's standard as much as it is Shanahan's.

ColoradoDarin
04-17-2010, 06:18 PM
The NFL is also full of players who made contributions as rookies, lets look at our own Broncos starters:

Orton played significantly as a rookie, Clady did, Graham did, Royal did, Gaffney did, Buckhalter did, Moreno did, Champ did, Goodman did, DJ did, Dumervil did, Dawkins did.

Known starters who didn't do much as rookies:

Ryan Harris, Chris Kuper, Renaldo Hill (only 1 start), Jamal Williams, Haggan, Ayers, Bannan, Mcbean

I make that 12 players who contributed as rookies and 8 who didn't, C, LG are unknown so they can't be counted either way.

Based on that I would say it is more likely that a player who contributes a lot as a rookie will be a good player than a player who didn't do much as a rookie becomes a good player.

But that's not what you were originally arguing. Now you're just moving the goalposts.

SouthStndJunkie
04-17-2010, 06:19 PM
"Wins and Losses" that were highly attributable to the Broncos defense.

This team collapsed at the feet of the lowly Kansas City Chiefs and the Oakland Raiders with the playoffs on the line.

Don't forget Kyle Orton's 2 TD passes to his favorite target, Derrick Johnson.

Paladin
04-17-2010, 07:35 PM
AFC Championships are the standard.

You gotta be shyting me. The Broncso went to the AFCCG once in Shanahan's last 10 years. That "standard" is your wet dream.....

KipCorrington25
04-17-2010, 07:52 PM
He only says 2 years to buy time after they were all terrible last year. After this year if he's not fired he will be saying they need 3 years.

baja
04-17-2010, 07:53 PM
You gotta be shyting me. The Broncso went to the AFCCG once in Shanahan's last 10 years. That "standard" is your wet dream.....

Damn dude did you not get the memo.

Josh in his first year in the beginning of a complete rebuild and system change over with essentially all new coaches was expected to win the AFCC playing the toughest schedule we have seen in years.

Steve Sewell
04-17-2010, 08:00 PM
Look, folks... sh#t didn't work for the last 10 years.

Hence, we're changing s#it.

Deal with it or gtfo.

LOL so true

theAPAOps5
04-17-2010, 08:04 PM
:rofl:

Yeah. You nailed it, chico.

I know Drama.

Steve Sewell
04-17-2010, 08:20 PM
Damn dude did you not get the memo.

Josh in his first year in the beginning of a complete rebuild and system change over with essentially all new coaches was expected to win the AFCC playing the toughest schedule we have seen in years.

Haha. I'm thoroughly convinced that the fans who expect rookies to play like Pro Bowlers and first year coaches in rebuild mode to win big right away jumped on this bandwagon in the late 90's. Thoroughly.

Tombstone RJ
04-17-2010, 08:49 PM
Listening to the McDaniels press conference and I found this particularly interesting and odd that no one has covered it. McDaniels says several times they make all their picks based on what type of player they think that player can be in two years and draft according.

It might seem like no big deal, but it represents a clear somewhat unusual departure from many draft day battle plans. A lot of teams look for immediate impact starters in round one. Future starting reserves and incredibly athletic project players in round two and three and so forth.

This is critical to predicting how we are going to draft because it essentially means Denver puts a premium on players' ability to play in our system and on having a high proverbial "ceiling."

This explains picks like McBath and Smith whereby they believe that they will really blossom in years two and three.

Now does that justify those picks? Not necessarily, but it at least explains where we're coming from and how we're looking at things. The fact that they put an emphasis on system compatibility also explains the comparatively shorter draft board.

I guess it's one of those things that we'll need another few years to really evaluate how this plan works, probably moreso than others.

I wouldn't take this two year stuff too literally. If you do that then flip side is a player is a bust if he doesn't pan out by the end of year two. That's just not the case.

NFLBRONCO
04-17-2010, 09:43 PM
damn dude did you not get the memo.

Josh in his first year in the beginning of a complete rebuild and system change over with essentially all new coaches was expected to win the afcc playing the toughest schedule we have seen in years.

qft

epicSocialism4tw
04-17-2010, 10:01 PM
He only says 2 years to buy time after they were all terrible last year. After this year if he's not fired he will be saying they need 3 years.

Its ever so convenient.

gyldenlove
04-17-2010, 10:06 PM
But that's not what you were originally arguing. Now you're just moving the goalposts.

Anyway, the reason most people are freaking out is that it is much more feasible that a decent player becomes a good player in a year than that a bad player becomes a good player, it could happen no doubt about that, but what are the odds?

That was my original argument, how is that not the same?

Looking at our starters the majority of them were good enough as rookies to make significant impacts, the minority wasn't, which goes to show that at least with the Broncos if you were good as a rookie you were more likely to become good enough to be a starter then if you were not good as a rookie.

Your reply please.

Kaylore
04-17-2010, 10:15 PM
I just pointed out the other side .

Wow we are 6-0 we just need to go 2-8 to get to 8-8 like Mike Shanahan
Sorry but I don't buy that weak logic.
Had he went 2-8 then 6-0 big difference between 6-0 then 2-8. Leave many questions about the upcoming season

When you start 6-0 yes I expect better.

Losing to SD, KC and OAK at home as never happened expect one time in the 90's when we lost to all 3 but beat SEA

Josh it looks like will either be great or fail miserably

How is that weak logic? You guys are the ones who keep leaving off the first half of the season. He was 8-8. All he's shown is he's average. I really doubt hell bomb, I think all his teams will be competitive. I actually am not sold hell be great yet.

cutthemdown
04-17-2010, 11:44 PM
You got the second half right. Their list of best players available is based on the players' ability to fit into their system and develop in the pros. All their picks will be BPA - for the Broncos.

I'm kind of shocked no one else is talking about the press conference he gave. It's wild the detail he went into on things. I mean at one point he basically says they will not be taking a tackle in the first two days of the draft because they like Harris and Clady. Just like that. The whole thing is full of that kind of stuff that he just puts out there, and no one on here seems to have even watched the press conference, much less talked about it.

I guess a lot of fans just so pissed off, bitter, longing for a good team and the glory days they want to hate Mcdaniels.

Almost like they see him as the Brian Griese of Broncos coaches. Just a guy who replaced the ledgend that we will soon tire of and try and move on. I think he's more then that. Mcdaniel has fresh ideas IMO and they will eventually get Broncos back into playoffs and maybe even to Superbowl. It's just going to Superbowls is pretty hard. He could do a good job and still come up short.

cutthemdown
04-17-2010, 11:47 PM
to be fair Josh was left the worst defense I had ever seen and an aging interior oline. By the time he got here QB already pissed. Not like he had ideal situation as far as talent on the team. He was left a small team that truthfull got bitchslapped around the field by the big strong teams. It was hard to watch. Last yr IMO at least the defense started getting after people again and they didn't play like girls. It was a start but I expect more this yr.

Marshall gone IMO doesn't matter. Offense stunk last yr because we couldnt run the ball. Broncos run the ball and defense continues to improve we can get more then 8 wins.

cutthemdown
04-17-2010, 11:50 PM
Haha. I'm thoroughly convinced that the fans who expect rookies to play like Pro Bowlers and first year coaches in rebuild mode to win big right away jumped on this bandwagon in the late 90's. Thoroughly.

More and more rookies are playing big in first yr but your still right. Basically about 10-15 rookies will play well enough in first yr to be noticed by the NFL and fans of other teams. Thats really about it. Some yrs even less.

spdirty
04-18-2010, 12:01 AM
Well hopefully Moreno, Smith, Ayers, and dickie quinn will mature into football players this year. Have my doubts, but OK.

Popps
04-18-2010, 01:29 AM
Its okay, dude.

If someone disagrees with McD, it shouldnt be the end of your world.



Not the end of my world at all. I'm a happy camper. I think this team is in the best place it's been since the mid 90s.

My point was simply that... we've been mostly a joke for 10 years. When businesses are run poorly for a decade, companies make personnel changes.

How long are people going to cry about this stuff?

CEH
04-18-2010, 03:14 AM
"At the places we select in the first and second rounds in particular, we feel like we're going to get quality players that can come in and compete immediately and make a big impact on our team." - April 16 2010

Who said this?

CEH
04-18-2010, 03:36 AM
How is that weak logic? You guys are the ones who keep leaving off the first half of the season. He was 8-8. All he's shown is he's average. I really doubt hell bomb, I think all his teams will be competitive. I actually am not sold hell be great yet.

It's weak because you are were trying to rationalize 8-8.

One year 8-8 is "crappy" the other year 8-8 is better because of this or that

If you want to play the 6-0 card as a reason why 8-8 is better then I can play the 2-8 card and losing to the AFCW at home first time in Broncos history as why it's worst


"Competive" is what they said about Shanny for his last 10 years when in fact he was never better than 6-6 over the last 12 games of any year except '05. See I can rag on Mike as well.

For me Average is Average there is no "better" average

That is my only point. It is what it is

Drek
04-18-2010, 04:18 AM
"At the places we select in the first and second rounds in particular, we feel like we're going to get quality players that can come in and compete immediately and make a big impact on our team." - April 16 2010

Who said this?

You do realize that neither sentence disproves the other right?

Moreno was our feature back last year. 1st round pick, made a big impact. Robert Ayers was in heavy rotation at one OLB spot. 1st round pick, impact. Darcel McBath was a key part of our special teams coverage improving and he filled in when needed well enough to start getting time even when everyone got healthy again. 2nd round pick, impact.

Three of the 5 guys in the first two rounds where impact players, and one of the two who wasn't likely was meant to be a 3rd round pick that the FO didn't want to roll the dice on getting when trading up to get him still let them get their next target (Bruton, also an impact player).

That doesn't mean the primary thing the organization looks at isn't still how the players will mature in years 2 and 3. Just that with as many first day picks as we had last year you'd hope to get some guys who are contributors from day one and improve from there. Which we did.

Now in year two we expect the other guys to start coming on and those guys who did perform well last year to take it to another level.

McDaniels isn't saying that by opening day year two that all rookies should be ready to start pro bowls. He's saying that by the end of their second year they need to be showing the kind of skills the organization expected them to develop.

If Robert Ayers becomes a solid starter at SOLB this season and Alphonso Smith becomes a standout nickel corner that doesn't mean they've peaked and that is what the organization expected out of them. Those achievements are just stepping stones that the organization expects them to meet. At some point in year two McDaniels expects guys to start showing at least flashes of what they where drafted for. Thats all.

chrisp
04-18-2010, 06:39 AM
It's weak because you are were trying to rationalize 8-8.

One year 8-8 is "crappy" the other year 8-8 is better because of this or that

If you want to play the 6-0 card as a reason why 8-8 is better then I can play the 2-8 card and losing to the AFCW at home first time in Broncos history as why it's worst


"Competive" is what they said about Shanny for his last 10 years when in fact he was never better than 6-6 over the last 12 games of any year except '05. See I can rag on Mike as well.

For me Average is Average there is no "better" average

That is my only point. It is what it is

There's all the difference in the world between an experienced, long-tenured head coach putting out an average team year in year out, and a rookie coach after changing coaching staff and systems having an average 1st year. Anyone who can't see that must have the temprament and attention span of a two year old...(and your earlier statement that "when you start 6-0 I expect better" kind of puts you in that category from my point of view).

Newsflash: nobody on this board wants an 8-8 season. What kaylore was attempting to address was the fact that many, many people were pointing to the strong possibility of an awful losing season. In the end Josh put out a competitive team that nearly got to the playoffs, which gives us some grounds for optimism....now he has a chance to build on that.

Of course another 8-8 season in 2010 then I think it will be much more legitimate to complain and expect more. If we were close to the playoffs last year then it shouldn't take too much improvement to put together a team that can get there this year and if Josh fails to do this then maybe he is a mediocre coach.

As a fan, you're perfectly entitled to 'expect' or 'demand' playoffs every year, but you're never going to get it. To expect it from a rookie head coach is even more unrealistic than that, but still your right as a fan. But to call other people 'illogical' becuase that don't follow your spoiled two-year-old "I want it now" philosphy is strange to say the least. Kind of a bit like when Mock rags on people for not making sense......

CEH
04-18-2010, 08:09 AM
You do realize that neither sentence disproves the other right?

Moreno was our feature back last year. 1st round pick, made a big impact. Robert Ayers was in heavy rotation at one OLB spot. 1st round pick, impact. Darcel McBath was a key part of our special teams coverage improving and he filled in when needed well enough to start getting time even when everyone got healthy again. 2nd round pick, impact.

Three of the 5 guys in the first two rounds where impact players, and one of the two who wasn't likely was meant to be a 3rd round pick that the FO didn't want to roll the dice on getting when trading up to get him still let them get their next target (Bruton, also an impact player).

That doesn't mean the primary thing the organization looks at isn't still how the players will mature in years 2 and 3. Just that with as many first day picks as we had last year you'd hope to get some guys who are contributors from day one and improve from there. Which we did.

Now in year two we expect the other guys to start coming on and those guys who did perform well last year to take it to another level.

McDaniels isn't saying that by opening day year two that all rookies should be ready to start pro bowls. He's saying that by the end of their second year they need to be showing the kind of skills the organization expected them to develop.

If Robert Ayers becomes a solid starter at SOLB this season and Alphonso Smith becomes a standout nickel corner that doesn't mean they've peaked and that is what the organization expected out of them. Those achievements are just stepping stones that the organization expects them to meet. At some point in year two McDaniels expects guys to start showing at least flashes of what they where drafted for. Thats all.

Fair enough

I was thinking twice about posting it (really late at night couldn't sleep) but I did and really didn't offer up an opinion . It was more for general consumption and discussion

When Josh said "big" impact did he mean in '10 or '11? I guess '11

Kaylore
04-18-2010, 08:45 AM
It's weak because you are were trying to rationalize 8-8.

One year 8-8 is "crappy" the other year 8-8 is better because of this or that

If you want to play the 6-0 card as a reason why 8-8 is better then I can play the 2-8 card and losing to the AFCW at home first time in Broncos history as why it's worst


"Competive" is what they said about Shanny for his last 10 years when in fact he was never better than 6-6 over the last 12 games of any year except '05. See I can rag on Mike as well.

For me Average is Average there is no "better" average

That is my only point. It is what it is
First of all, I never said it was good enough. However it is better because of the quality of the teams we played, and the margin in our loses went down. We played four playoff teams in '08 and the remainder were teams with some of the worst records in football that year.

Last year we played four teams that weren't playoff teams and some of them were on the road. We also beat teams like San Diego in San Diego, which we haven't done in years, and handed Tom Brady his first overtime loss ever. We also finally showed up for some nationally televised games. For the past four years Shanny teams had been imploding on national TV.

So given that we had the second easiest schedule in '08 and we had the third hardest in '09, that changed QB's and completely revamped both systems, AND that we made our worst defense in Broncos history vault to a top ten defense, yes I absolutely am more impressed with last year's 8-8 team than the previous year's. They were tougher and played smarter football. There is nothing illogical about that at all.

And again, I completely agree that doesn't mean 8-8 is good enough and I think the last season fade is symptomatic of a still too small, finesse team. However that's what McDaniels got so that's not all on him and he's slowly trying to get us bigger and tougher.

CEH
04-18-2010, 08:59 AM
First of all, I never said it was good enough. However it is better because of the quality of the teams we played, and the margin in our loses went down. We played four playoff teams in '08 and the remainder were teams with some of the worst records in football that year.

Last year we played four teams that weren't playoff teams and some of them were on the road. We also beat teams like San Diego in San Diego, which we haven't done in years, and handed Tom Brady his first overtime loss ever. We also finally showed up for some nationally televised games. For the past four years Shanny teams had been imploding on national TV.

So given that we had the second easiest schedule in '08 and we had the third hardest in '09, that changed QB's and completely revamped both systems, AND that we made our worst defense in Broncos history vault to a top ten defense, yes I absolutely am more impressed with last year's 8-8 team than the previous year's. They were tougher and played smarter football. There is nothing illogical about that at all.

And again, I completely agree that doesn't mean 8-8 is good enough and I think the last season fade is symptomatic of a still too small, finesse team. However that's what McDaniels got so that's not all on him and he's slowly trying to get us bigger and tougher.


Thanks for answering yourself.

Some other poster went completely 180 and interrupted the word "weak" for "illogical". Find me anywhere I said illogical. Illogical implies no logic and based on your response here we can see it's not illogical

I believe not how you start it's how you finish in the NFL and in all Pro Sports. I't been proven over and over and I can't sit here right now and say we are better or worst because we were pretty crappy at the end of the season however I will agree we must get bigger and stronger that part I am really excited to see. Agreeing that 8-8 is not good enough not matter how you got there was my point.

No ill will here. Good job.

Hulamau
04-18-2010, 09:00 AM
He didn't say anything that most NFL GM's didn't suspect already.


The same guy that got the credit for going 6-0 gets the blame for losing the last four games in row. If anything, you made the point that it's not McDaniels' fault, though.

The early part of the season your scheme can hide some things but by the end of the year it really comes down to who has the better players and we were exposed. That doesn't excuse losing to the Raiders and Chiefs at home, and I agree that if we're looking at 8-8 next year it's time to look at other options at head coach.

Having said that, there's no question he got the sum to perform better than the parts. He assembled the coaching staff and hand picked the free agents and they all were hits. He's done that again. Looking at the schedule many here predicted with a transition year we would be around 4-12 and maybe 6-10. Suddenly he's 8-8 and you and others are all indignant like he was supposed to do better than that in his first year. I for one liked that even our loses were by small margins and we played very well against good teams.

Again, close isn't good enough so I agree he has to get better, but I laugh at all the people that said we would suck last year, and then after getting the exact same record as the year before they complain that McDaniels is ruining the team.

Yep Kaylore, its a sad commentary on the knee-jerk superficial view of the jilted.

rbackfactory80
04-18-2010, 10:42 AM
Not like Shanahan ever coached a team that started out 5-1 and lost the majority of the second half. Or did he? Shanhan became the king of the late season collapse.

epicSocialism4tw
04-18-2010, 12:53 PM
Not like Shanahan ever coached a team that started out 5-1 and lost the majority of the second half. Or did he? Shanhan became the king of the late season collapse.

If Shanahan is the king, the McD is certainly his prince at this point.

Popps
04-18-2010, 01:51 PM
F
Last year we played four teams that weren't playoff teams and some of them were on the road. We also beat teams like San Diego in San Diego, which we haven't done in years, and handed Tom Brady his first overtime loss ever. We also finally showed up for some nationally televised games. For the past four years Shanny teams had been imploding on national TV.

So given that we had the second easiest schedule in '08 and we had the third hardest in '09, that changed QB's and completely revamped both systems, AND that we made our worst defense in Broncos history vault to a top ten defense, yes I absolutely am more impressed with last year's 8-8 team than the previous year's. They were tougher and played smarter football..


Anyone who has watched the game for long enough knows that 8-8 can have many different looks. The record itself isn't acceptable, but if it's part of a process... it can be understood and accepted....


94 - 7-9
95 - 8-8 NEW COACH
96 - 13-3
97 - 12-4


2007 - 7-9
2008 - 8-8
2009 - 8-8 NEW COACH
2010 - ?
20100 - ?

Atwater His Ass
04-18-2010, 03:01 PM
Sure is hard to understand how fans may feel last season was a huge let down by trading our young star QB and losing to both fierce division rivals in KC and OAK to piss away a playoff spot late in the season. Man just can't figure out why people would be upset over that.

ColoradoDarin
04-18-2010, 04:49 PM
Sure is hard to understand how fans may feel last season was a huge let down by trading our young star QB and losing to both fierce division rivals in KC and OAK to piss away a playoff spot late in the season. Man just can't figure out why people would be upset over that.

We had a star QB? Not since Elway hung 'em up. We lost to KC and oakland the year before too (with that 'star' QB), which also cost us a playoff berth...

BroncoBuff
04-18-2010, 07:13 PM
think this team is in the best place it's been since the mid 90s.

We won the last two Super Bowls played in the 90s, so "mid 90s" is wrong on its face. But even allowing for your time-frame exaggeration (hyperbole, anger and supplicance being three things we've come to expect from you), you are still wrong.

We went 13-3 in 2005, hosted a Championship game, remember? So try again, but this time maybe "we're in the best place we've been in the last four years." That might work.


My point was simply that we've been mostly a joke for 10 years.

Your point was simply wrong. "Mostly a joke" the last 10 years? As a Broncos fan, I take great offense at that.

Over the last 10 years, the Denver Broncos' record is 93-67. Probably in the top quarter of all teams, definitely the top one-third. And just one losing season, 7-9 at that. Soooo ... swing and a miss!

I did this research partly to prove you wrong ... but mostly to make fun of you, something I enjoy a great deal.

I suppose your attitude is understandable from the point of view that Broncos fans are a spoiled lot ... Past 35 years, we are Top 5 in record, playoff appearances, playoff wins and Super Bowls. That kinda success breeds unrealistic expectations, in all of us.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2010, 07:56 PM
How is that weak logic? You guys are the ones who keep leaving off the first half of the season. He was 8-8. All he's shown is he's average. I really doubt hell bomb, I think all his teams will be competitive. I actually am not sold hell be great yet.

Despite the fact I'm one of "you guys," I think Josh has shown he's ABOVE average, as a coach anyway. The massive overhauls, in personnel, coaching staff and schemes on both sides of the ball, make 8-8 a very respectable finish. Where he's fallen short in our view, to the extent I speak for "us," is in management and people skills. I suppose it's Pat Bowlen's fault for giving him full authority. Pat should have known that a very young first time head coach making massive overhauls, and without front office experience, would have a full enough plate on the field alone.


The reason we "leave off the first half" has little to do with the first half, and everything to do with the second. Like it or not, the second-half slide far exceeded the 2008 slide.

To "us guys" it was a massive embarrassment to lose two of our last three games, against our two biggest rivals, both among the very worst teams in the league, at home, with the playoffs on the line, and with a portion of the offensive lineup in near mutiny mode ... well, that is not good.

To us, "you guys" glossing over these very troubling points seems unrealistic.

Tombstone RJ
04-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Anyone who has watched the game for long enough knows that 8-8 can have many different looks. The record itself isn't acceptable, but if it's part of a process... it can be understood and accepted....


94 - 7-9
95 - 8-8 NEW COACH (pssst. john elway)
96 - 13-3 (pssst. john elway)
97 - 12-4(pssst. john elway)


2007 - 7-9
2008 - 8-8
2009 - 8-8 NEW COACH
2010 - ?
20100 - ?


Thought I'd point out that little detail there...

MOCRUSH
04-18-2010, 08:38 PM
I really am getting the feeling we'll reach on Sean Weatherspoon in round one. And i have a feeling that he'll be an Al Wilson-esque fan favorite. The more I watch of this guy, the more I like him. I cant imagine he'll be a bust. Plus, when McD mentioned him in the press conference, he got a hard on.

No on players who get debacled by Navy....that goes double for Mr. Clausen.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2010, 09:33 PM
"At the places we select in the first and second rounds in particular, we feel like we're going to get quality players that can come in and compete immediately and make a big impact on our team." - April 16 2010

That's good research. Drek, maybe the statements are not mutually exclusive per se, but they strikingly at odds. And, tellingly, the second excuses the first. And while McBath was an impact player and to some extent so was Moreno, the consensus - even from Dove Valley - is that Ayers has some serious work to do.

My take on this is the first statement came from a young first-time head coach with no front office or draft experience, and the second was a shout out to the '09 class, letting then know he's behind them, while at the same time firing them up for 2010.

BroncoInferno
04-18-2010, 09:40 PM
That's good research. Drek, maybe the statements are not mutually exclusive per se, but they strikingly at odds. And, tellingly, the second excuses the first. And while McBath was an impact player and to some extent so was Moreno, the consensus - even from Dove Valley - is that Ayers has some serious work to do.

Yes, but don't you find it encouraging that 1) it was said last season that he was raw and would need time to develop and 2) Davis was released in order slide Haggan over (or draft someone to replace him) to ILB and make room for Ayers at SSLB?

montrose
04-18-2010, 09:42 PM
Lets grade on a ten year scale. Paul Toviessi, break out year!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/2000/bowls/news/2000/12/27/motorcity_gamer_ap/t1_toviessi_ap-01.jpg

BroncoBuff
04-18-2010, 09:56 PM
Yes, but don't you find it encouraging that 1) it was said last season that he was raw and would need time to develop and 2) Davis was released in order slide Haggan over (or draft someone to replace him) to ILB and make room for Ayers at SSLB?

Absolutely positively ... both very good points. I've said all along if Mike Mayock loved him, with the stipulation he needed a year of two, that's good enough for me. And yes, Haggan sliding over is a vote of confidence. Who made that move, Nolan or Martindale?

BroncoInferno
04-18-2010, 09:59 PM
Absolutely positively ... both very good points. I've said all along if Mike Mayock loved him, with the stipulation he needed a year of two, that's good enough for me. And yes, Haggan sliding over is a vote of confidence. Who made that move, Nolan or Martindale?

Davis was released after Nolan went to Miami.

Popps
04-18-2010, 10:12 PM
Thought I'd point out that little detail there...

Agree, but of course... none of the people "expecting" a SB victory this year are going to point out that Shanahan inherited a Hall of Fame QB.

As a happy coincidence, those same people deeming this season "undefeated or failure" ... just happen to hate the current admin and are still panty-wadded over Shanny and Quiltler being shown the door.

So, these predictions and "demands" are just useless.

Watch the team. Enjoy the games. Hope for the best. I'm optimistic. Very optimistic. If people want to stay bitter their whole lives and make judgments based on a lack of evidence, then they can knock themselves out.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2010, 10:17 PM
So, these predictions and "demands" are just useless.

Agree 100%.


Watch the team. Enjoy the games. Hope for the best. I'm optimistic. Very optimistic.

Now you're talking!


If people want to stay bitter their whole lives and make judgments based on a lack of evidence, then they can knock themselves out.

Of course that statement applies equally to "you guys" as is does to "us guys."

chrisp
04-21-2010, 02:15 AM
Some other poster went completely 180 and interrupted the word "weak" for "illogical". Find me anywhere I said illogical. Illogical implies no logic and based on your response here we can see it's not illogical

That would be me. You said 'weak logic' in your original post. Logic is absolute - something is either logical or it isn't, so weak logic is the same as illogical at the end of the day.....

.. however it seems you've accepeted Kahns own explanation of his post more readily than you accepted my defense of his reasoning so....live long and prosper captain....

I just get annoyed when people say that last year was no better than the previous year because the context is completely different. The only head coaches that had a winning season in their first year are ones that inherited winning teams from retiring coaches. That's not a case of being happy with mediocrity, just a case of accepting reality....

dbfan21
04-21-2010, 07:28 AM
You got the second half right. Their list of best players available is based on the players' ability to fit into their system and develop in the pros. All their picks will be BPA - for the Broncos.

I'm kind of shocked no one else is talking about the press conference he gave. It's wild the detail he went into on things. I mean at one point he basically says they will not be taking a tackle in the first two days of the draft because they like Harris and Clady. Just like that. The whole thing is full of that kind of stuff that he just puts out there, and no one on here seems to have even watched the press conference, much less talked about it.

Great take, Khan. I agree with you on the press conference/interview. I think he did throw out some insightful things that we should be discussing more. Problem is, there are more people on this board who would rather whine and complain than to learn McD's philosophy.

jhns
04-21-2010, 08:01 AM
Not the end of my world at all. I'm a happy camper. I think this team is in the best place it's been since the mid 90s.

My point was simply that... we've been mostly a joke for 10 years. When businesses are run poorly for a decade, companies make personnel changes.

How long are people going to cry about this stuff?

We have been a joke? You cry about people not saying everything that has to do with Josh is great and then freely rip on the past? The past that includes us being in the top 5 in wins over that time? The same past that saw us in the playoffs a ton and even an AFCCG? We are better than we have been since the mid 90s? We won a SB in 97 and 98....

I have no problem with the Shanahan firing but if you call his last 10 years a failure, I don't get how you can be so in love with 8-8.... Especially an 8-8 that saw the worst collapse this team has seen. One that saw us get stomped by some of the worst teams in the league. Funny stuff. McDaniels 8-8 collapse is a great season and shows we are in a great position! Better than those years we were in the playoffs! Better than that year we made the AFCCG! LOL

You gtfo McDaniels fan. You don't even care about the Broncos.

RaiderH8r
04-21-2010, 08:26 AM
Look, folks... sh#t didn't work for the last 10 years.

Hence, we're changing s#it.

Deal with it or gtfo.

*****ZZZZZZZZIIIIPPPPPP********

RIGHT NOW, WHIP'EM OUT!! WHO'S GOT THE BIGGEST BRONCOS FANDOM? WHO'S GOT IT? MINE MEASURES LARGE AND IN CHARGE. I AM RAIDERH8R, BIGGEST BRONCO FAN IN ALL THE LAND AND ALL OTHER BRONCO MESSAGE BOARD POSTERS ARE INFERIOR TO ME AND MY BRONCO FANDOM. ALL OF YOU SHOULD FIND DIFFERENT TEAMS WHEN YOU DISAGREE WITH MY AWESOMITUDINAL FANDOM!!! CLEAN THIS PLACE OUT FOR MY BRAND OF FAN!!!

Christ.

RaiderH8r
04-21-2010, 08:30 AM
How is that weak logic? You guys are the ones who keep leaving off the first half of the season. He was 8-8. All he's shown is he's average. I really doubt hell bomb, I think all his teams will be competitive. I actually am not sold hell be great yet.

And all he had to do was beat Washington, Oakland, or KC in the last 8 to make the playoffs. Capt. Slapdick managed to blow that too.

If McKid wants to make bold moves I expect bold results. Period. If he misses the playoffs again this year it should be grounds for his termination.

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:32 AM
*****ZZZZZZZZIIIIPPPPPP********

RIGHT NOW, WHIP'EM OUT!! WHO'S GOT THE BIGGEST BRONCOS FANDOM? WHO'S GOT IT? MINE MEASURES LARGE AND IN CHARGE. I AM RAIDERH8R, BIGGEST BRONCO FAN IN ALL THE LAND AND ALL OTHER BRONCO MESSAGE BOARD POSTERS ARE INFERIOR TO ME AND MY BRONCO FANDOM. ALL OF YOU SHOULD FIND DIFFERENT TEAMS WHEN YOU DISAGREE WITH MY AWESOMITUDINAL FANDOM!!! CLEAN THIS PLACE OUT FOR MY BRAND OF FAN!!!

Christ.

Flip side:

I'M SUPER SCARED TO BE A BRONCO'S FAN BECAUSE I HAD MIKE SHANAHAN HOLDING MY HANDS FOR THE LAST 14 YEARS AND EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T DO JACK DIDDLY SQUAT THE LAST 10 YEARS I'M STILL GONNA CLING TO HIS SKIRT AND WEEP LIKE A FRIGGEN BABY WHEN MCX DOES SOMETHING I DON'T AGREE WITH!! I KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO!! OH, AND I'M A FAN BECAUSE I CAN BITCH MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE!! SEE, I CARE LOTS!


not

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:42 AM
And all he had to do was beat Washington, Oakland, or KC in the last 8 to make the playoffs. Capt. Slapdick managed to blow that too.

If McKid wants to make bold moves I expect bold results. Period. If he misses the playoffs again this year it should be grounds for his termination.

Mike Shanahan missed the playoffs 9 out of 10 years and please remember, Shanahan DOES NOT REBUILD.

Blah, your gonna hate McD not because he's doing things different, but because your pacifier has been removed and now resides in Washington.

TheReverend
04-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Mike Shanahan missed the playoffs 9 out of 10 years and please remember, Shanahan DOES NOT REBUILD.

Blah, your gonna hate McD not because he's doing things different, but because your pacifier has been removed and now resides in Washington.

Are you mentally retarded?

RaiderH8r
04-21-2010, 08:46 AM
Flip side:

I'M SUPER SCARED TO BE A BRONCO'S FAN BECAUSE I HAD MIKE SHANAHAN HOLDING MY HANDS FOR THE LAST 14 YEARS AND EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T DO JACK DIDDLY SQUAT THE LAST 10 YEARS I'M STILL GONNA CLING TO HIS SKIRT AND WEEP LIKE A FRIGGEN BABY WHEN MCX DOES SOMETHING I DON'T AGREE WITH!! I KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO!! OH, AND I'M A FAN BECAUSE I CAN b**** MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE!! SEE, I CARE LOTS!


not

Not. Even. Close.

Nice try though. I'm critical of McKid and hold the bar high because it was his choice to make bold moves and I expect bold results. If he can't get it done then it is time to ship him out and find someone who can.

I forgot that going 2-6 down the stretch, losing games to WAS, OAK, and KC to miss the playoffs was tolerable in Bronco country. I forgot that a coach who pisses down his leg and fumblef*cks his way into trading his star QB for a noodle armed turd box was embraced. Then the same coach trades away a 1st rounder to get an undersized DB in the second round who was so piss poor they had to pull Ty Law off of the dump heap to fill out the nickel/dime packages. It escapes my attention that all of the upheaval is a direct result of actions taken by the coach and as such that coach used to be held accountable. I forgot that all of that doesn't matter in Broncos country anymore.

More than all of that, I forgot that being a Broncos fan meant to be beholden, pussywhipped sychophant to the whims and whimsey of all things Broncos. Including a half Alzheimer's owner, his pet cabana boy coach and all that comes with it.

I've gone rounds with all the "Super Fans" on here about the coaching move. I didn't like it, but understood the necessity. So blow the whole "swingin' Shanny's sack" line out your corn hole. I find Super Fans who want to tell me to shove off or "GTFO" and call them on their BS. You wanna whip'em out? My SuperFan is long and strong.

jhns
04-21-2010, 08:46 AM
Mike Shanahan missed the playoffs 9 out of 10 years and please remember, Shanahan DOES NOT REBUILD.


Ummm, not been a fan long?

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:48 AM
Are you mentally retarded?

Oops, he won 1 playoff game in 10 years post Elway. Point being, Shanahans post season record after Elway was horrid.

RaiderH8r
04-21-2010, 08:48 AM
Mike Shanahan missed the playoffs 9 out of 10 years and please remember, Shanahan DOES NOT REBUILD.

Blah, your gonna hate McD not because he's doing things different, but because your pacifier has been removed and now resides in Washington.

Shanny does not rebuild, he reloads.:strong:

RaiderH8r
04-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Oops, he won 1 playoff game in 10 years post Elway. Point being, Shanahans post season record after Elway was horrid.

Seriously, Bob?

NOW, this matters to you? Didn't matter when Bob made the same argument 3 years ago did it? You're going to pull the tired old BS knocks made by rival fans and use them now?

Okey dokey.

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Ummm, not been a fan long?

You see, its "fans" like you that keep the OM in the crapper. Instead of realizing what the intent of my post was, you attack the poster.

Nice, keep up the good work jhns. You might be poster of the year here.

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:51 AM
Seriously, Bob?

NOW, this matters to you? Didn't matter when Bob made the same argument 3 years ago did it? You're going to pull the tired old BS knocks made by rival fans and use them now?

Okey dokey.

Nice, calling me bob. Nice. Keep up the good work. :thumbs:

jhns
04-21-2010, 08:53 AM
You see, its "fans" like you that keep the OM in the crapper. Instead of realizing what the intent of my post was, you attack the poster.

Nice, keep up the good work jhns. You might be poster of the year here.

It is an attack to ask if you haven't been a fan for long when you completely whiff on our recent past? Why is it a bad thing to be a newer fan? I would just say that you shouldn't make those statements if you don't know what happened.

I do work for that poster of the year award though.

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:53 AM
Not. Even. Close.

Nice try though. I'm critical of McKid and hold the bar high because it was his choice to make bold moves and I expect bold results. If he can't get it done then it is time to ship him out and find someone who can.

I forgot that going 2-6 down the stretch, losing games to WAS, OAK, and KC to miss the playoffs was tolerable in Bronco country. I forgot that a coach who pisses down his leg and fumble****s his way into trading his star QB for a noodle armed turd box was embraced. Then the same coach trades away a 1st rounder to get an undersized DB in the second round who was so piss poor they had to pull Ty Law off of the dump heap to fill out the nickel/dime packages. It escapes my attention that all of the upheaval is a direct result of actions taken by the coach and as such that coach used to be held accountable. I forgot that all of that doesn't matter in Broncos country anymore.

More than all of that, I forgot that being a Broncos fan meant to be beholden, p***Ywhipped sychophant to the whims and whimsey of all things Broncos. Including a half Alzheimer's owner, his pet cabana boy coach and all that comes with it.

I've gone rounds with all the "Super Fans" on here about the coaching move. I didn't like it, but understood the necessity. So blow the whole "swingin' Shanny's sack" line out your corn hole. I find Super Fans who want to tell me to shove off or "GTFO" and call them on their BS. You wanna whip'em out? My SuperFan is long and strong.

:rofl:

eh, ok. I deem you the super-est of super fans because you care. :thanku:

TheReverend
04-21-2010, 08:56 AM
Oops, he won 1 playoff game in 10 years post Elway. Point being, Shanahans post season record after Elway was horrid.

You could also say that the only teams we lost to in the post-season either had a HoF coach/QB combo (Colts Dungy/Manning) or went on and won the superbowl (Ravens/Steelers).

I think if there's a complaint to be made about Mike, it should be with division titles. Winning the west more often would've made for smoother playoff schedules. But the teams we lost to don't particularly come with much shame considering the Ravens D was perhaps the best ever, Manning is perhaps the ever and... well I'm still really bitter about that Pitt game.

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 08:56 AM
It is an attack to ask if you haven't been a fan for long when you completely whiff on our recent past? Why is it a bad thing to be a newer fan? I would just say that you shouldn't make those statements if you don't know what happened.

I do work for that poster of the year award though.

Your the best jhns! Thanks for the constructive criticism! I'll check with you next time I make a post to make sure I've got everything buttoned up correctly.

jhns
04-21-2010, 08:58 AM
Your the best jhns!

Dude, no need to keep saying this stuff. I already know.

Tombstone RJ
04-21-2010, 09:01 AM
Dude, no need to keep saying this stuff. I already know.

/end thread.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 09:59 AM
If Shanahan is the king, the McD is certainly his prince at this point.

He's been an NFL coach on a rebuilding project for ONE season. Can you get any more delusional? I don't think so...

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 10:10 AM
Past 35 years, we are Top 5 in record, playoff appearances, playoff wins and Super Bowls. That kinda success breeds unrealistic expectations, in all of us.

Which makes it all the more comical that people don't trust Pat Bowlen to make good decisions regarding the management of his football team.

jhns
04-21-2010, 10:17 AM
Which makes it all the more comical that people don't trust Pat Bowlen to make good decisions regarding the management of his football team.

Well it is the first time I have ever heard Bowlen admit his coach had made mistakes when not talking about one he just fired. He just doesn't have a choice but to keep McDaniels. He isn't going to fire him after a single season and pay 3 coaches.

Anyways, Tombstone clearly marked the end of the thread. I'm not sure why you are still posting in it.

TailgateNut
04-21-2010, 10:24 AM
Haha. I'm thoroughly convinced that the fans who expect rookies to play like Pro Bowlers and first year coaches in rebuild mode to win big right away jumped on this bandwagon in the late 90's. Thoroughly.


I suspect the same. Way to many "spoiled brats" on the OM.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 10:37 AM
Shanny does not rebuild, he reloads.:strong:

The reloading thing was done primarily through free agency. It was fun winning 9-10 games most seasons by virtue of smoke and mirrors and then getting butt****ed in the playoffs against actually good football teams like Indy and Baltimore every year. Shanahan was still stuck in the 49'ers/Broncos 90's mindset of reloading through free agency.

McDaniels appears to be instituting a shift in philosophy here. Long term success is now attained by building through the draft in today's NFL. Having a mix of savvy veterans, good young players, and quality depth at most positions is the formula that works. You reload through the draft, but success or failure does not rely on the performance of the first year player because the players picked 2-3 years prior have been developed and are the difference makers.

Shanahan was overly reliant on FA signings to make an impact. Problem was if your FA signing crapped the bed or got injured, you were ****ed royally because you didn't have much quality depth behind him.

Dagmar
04-21-2010, 10:44 AM
I noticed on Don Banks 2009 mock draft he had Alphonso going #23 to NE.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 10:45 AM
Well it is the first time I have ever heard Bowlen admit his coach had made mistakes when not talking about one he just fired. He just doesn't have a choice but to keep McDaniels. He isn't going to fire him after a single season and pay 3 coaches.

Anyways, Tombstone clearly marked the end of the thread. I'm not sure why you are still posting in it.

You appear to be posting in it as well.

Your hatred of McDaniels given the circumstances is pretty amusing to behold. You are now making the assertion that Bowlen would like to fire him, but he can't. ROFL

Instead of marking the end of a thread, I'm going to mark this as the end of you posting on the Mane, deal?

There are plenty of Bears boards out there with posters who can laugh at your irrational infatuation with Jay Cutler while still having relevant conversations due to him being part of that organization.

jhns
04-21-2010, 10:49 AM
You appear to be posting in it as well.

Your hatred of McDaniels given the circumstances is pretty amusing to behold. You are now making the assertion that Bowlen would like to fire him, but he can't. ROFL

Instead of marking the end of a thread, I'm going to mark this as the end of you posting on the Mane, deal?

There are plenty of Bears boards out there with posters who can laugh at your irrational infatuation with Jay Cutler while still having relevant conversations due to him being part of that organization.

When did I say he wanted to? I said he wouldn't even if he did want to. You implied we should trust him and how he runs the team. Well, even he says McDaniels has screwed up. It is funny that you guys get so defensive when fans point these screwups out.

I have no interest in the Bears. You are the ones that don't care what happens to this team. Maybe you should just stop pretending to be a fan....

TailgateNut
04-21-2010, 10:57 AM
You see, its "fans" like you that keep the OM in the crapper. Instead of realizing what the intent of my post was, you attack the poster.

Nice, keep up the good work jhns. You might be poster of the year here.


jhns (25yo football genius:spit:) talking about others not being fans for a long time is ****ing hilarious.

jhns
04-21-2010, 11:04 AM
jhns (25yo football genius:spit:) talking about others not being fans for a long time is ****ing hilarious.

1) Not 25.

2) It is pretty funny when a long time fan doesn't even know the basics of what the team has done in the last 10 years.

3) I'm not sure why I am responding to you. I may get more threats from you trying to beat me up from behind your monitor. The thing is, you are to fat to fight.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 11:31 AM
When did I say he wanted to? I said he wouldn't even if he did want to. You implied we should trust him and how he runs the team. Well, even he says McDaniels has screwed up. It is funny that you guys get so defensive when fans point these screwups out.

I have no interest in the Bears. You are the ones that don't care what happens to this team. Maybe you should just stop pretending to be a fan....

Scroll up dude, damn:

"He just doesn't have a choice but to keep McDaniels. He isn't going to fire him after a single season and pay 3 coaches."

I didn't say you should be a Bears fan, I suggested that it would be better for you to post there rather than here.

Its not that I think that McD is infallible...its quite the opposite. He's a young guy, a new head coach, and is going to make mistakes. However, I find myself in a position of defending him more often than not on this board because of hyper-delusional pit bull posters like yourself who lockjaw on something (in your case the Jay Cutler trade) and never let go.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 11:38 AM
jhns (25yo football genius:spit:) talking about others not being fans for a long time is ****ing hilarious.

Ha...he's 26. He was 14 when the Broncos won their first Super Bowl. Explains a lot that his entire adult Bronco fandom has been under the watchful eye of Shanahan.

jhns
04-21-2010, 11:42 AM
Scroll up dude, damn:

"He just doesn't have a choice but to keep McDaniels. He isn't going to fire him after a single season and pay 3 coaches."

I didn't say you should be a Bears fan, I suggested that it would be better for you to post there rather than here.

Its not that I think that McD is infallible...its quite the opposite. He's a young guy, a new head coach, and is going to make mistakes. However, I find myself in a position of defending him more often than not on this board because of hyper-delusional pit bull posters like yourself who lockjaw on something (in your case the Jay Cutler trade) and never let go.

Ok, nothing you just quoted says that Bowlen wants to fire him. Him not having a choice in keeping McDaniels is not even close to the same as him wanting to fire McDaniels.

I wasn't aware that McDaniels needed defended by you though. I'm sure he is glad to have a message board hero on his side.

Don't worry though, you will all be saying the same thing when he is gone. I don't get how you defend such a dumb move. A player got upset and McDaniels **** the bed. If that player matures at all, we are going to be the joke of the league for the next 10 years. Cutler will be in this league longer than McDaniels is on this team. I don't care about any of that though. My issue isn't with Cutler being traded. It is with Cutler being traded when he had no plan in place to replace him. Now you guys try arguing Orton is just as good and that QB is overrated. I'm sorry but this comedy is to good to pass up. I enjoy reading it.

jhns
04-21-2010, 11:44 AM
Ha...he's 26. He was 14 when the Broncos won their first Super Bowl. Explains a lot that his entire adult Bronco fandom has been under the watchful eye of Shanahan.

Yes, it is to bad we have gone from such a great time in Broncos history to this. Maybe I will learn to accept failure like you guys in time. Right now, it makes me sad.

Kaylore
04-21-2010, 11:48 AM
Yes, it is to bad we have gone from such a great time in Broncos history to this. Maybe I will learn to accept failure like you guys in time. Right now, it makes me sad.

Once again, this reimagined "dark times" rears it's ugly head. I know you look fondly on golden era in Broncos lore when from '06-'08 we averaged 8-8. It must be hard going from 8-8 to 8-8 under the dark rule of McDaniels. The way he's destroyed this 8-8 team and completely smashed it into another type of 8-8 team suggests the team might collapse entirely. With Cutler at least we were average! Now we're only average! It's TERRIBLE! What a shame. :pity:

TailgateNut
04-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Ha...he's 26. He was 14 when the Broncos won their first Super Bowl. Explains a lot that his entire adult Bronco fandom has been under the watchful eye of Shanahan.

Reading about the Broncos isn't the same as having lived through the up and down (mostly down) years. He once told me he's been a fan since 1992.:spit:

Even a pompous ass can google Bronco history.

jhns
04-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Once again, this reimagined "dark times" rears it's ugly head. I know you look fondly on golden era in Broncos lore when from '06-'08 we averaged 8-8. It must be hard going from 8-8 to 8-8 under the dark rule of McDaniels. The way he's destroyed this 8-8 team and completely smashed it into another type of 8-8 team suggests the team might collapse entirely. With Cutler at least we were average! Now we're only average! It's TERRIBLE! What a shame. :pity:

It was a sarcastic response to what he said.

As for what you are saying, this isn't a one man sport. One player does not win and lose on his own. I would say we were a 1-15 team those years without guys like Cutler and Marshall. That is backed by the fact that we had the franchises worst ever defense and a bad special teams.

Anyways, I was all for getting rid of Shanahan. You guys are way off on that part.

TailgateNut
04-21-2010, 11:55 AM
Once again, this reimagined "dark times" rears it's ugly head. I know you look fondly on golden era in Broncos lore when from '06-'08 we averaged 8-8. It must be hard going from 8-8 to 8-8 under the dark rule of McDaniels. The way he's destroyed this 8-8 team and completely smashed it into another type of 8-8 team suggests the team might collapse entirely. With Cutler at least we were average! Now we're only average! It's TERRIBLE! What a shame. :pity:


:thanku:

jhns
04-21-2010, 11:56 AM
Reading about the Broncos isn't the same as having lived through the up and down (mostly down) years. He once told me he's been a fan since 1992.:spit:

Even a pompous ass can google Bronco history.

LOL

Again with this unable to accept failure thing. It is funny that you guys do everything you can to defend McDaniels and then always say people just can't handle failute like old fans....

Again, this stuff is great to talk about because you guys are full of comedy.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 12:09 PM
Ok, nothing you just quoted says that Bowlen wants to fire him. Him not having a choice in keeping McDaniels is not even close to the same as him wanting to fire McDaniels.

I wasn't aware that McDaniels needed defended by you though. I'm sure he is glad to have a message board hero on his side.

Don't worry though, you will all be saying the same thing when he is gone. I don't get how you defend such a dumb move. A player got upset and McDaniels **** the bed. If that player matures at all, we are going to be the joke of the league for the next 10 years. Cutler will be in this league longer than McDaniels is on this team. I don't care about any of that though. My issue isn't with Cutler being traded. It is with Cutler being traded when he had no plan in place to replace him. Now you guys try arguing Orton is just as good and that QB is overrated. I'm sorry but this comedy is to good to pass up. I enjoy reading it.

You inferred it in the comment that I quoted.

re: McDaniels, he doesn't need to be defended, I do it on my own. The reason I argue with people like you is because it has been so frustrating to watch what was once a strong, intelligent fan base devolve into one of misguided privilege and delusion.

You won't give McDaniels a chance. You want immediate gratification, and are not wise enough to see the merit in what he's doing. People like you think that he is going to be a bust because he traded away a big-headed QB that hasn't done **** in the NFL in 4 seasons and a malcontent WR who didn't want to be here and was too big of a risk to sign to an offer that he wanted.

If Cutler has done anything of notoriety (i.e. win football games at a high percentage) please let me know. You say that Cutler is better than Orton, has he proven that other than passing your eye test? No, he hasn't. Could he prove otherwise in the future? I suppose he could. Now if we were talking about McDaniels getting rid of a young Dan Marino or John Elway, your position would have some merit, because those guys actually ****ing produced early on...on vastly inferior teams when compared to the 2007 and 2008 Broncos squad.

Now drop the Cutler crap and move on with the current players on the roster, give this well regarded young coach a chance, and stop making Bronco fans look like a bunch of good time charlies who complain the moment any adversity arises.

Kaylore
04-21-2010, 12:10 PM
It was a sarcastic response to what he said.

As for what you are saying, this isn't a one man sport. One player does not win and lose on his own. I would say we were a 1-15 team those years without guys like Cutler and Marshall. That is backed by the fact that we had the franchises worst ever defense and a bad special teams.

Anyways, I was all for getting rid of Shanahan. You guys are way off on that part.

Fair enough. But I would argue that the problems with our team weren't just talent, they were toughness and attitude. We're not there yet but it's nice to see a coach make that important. Frankly, Marshall and Cutler are not tough guys. At least not mentally. They shut down when things get hard. And I honestly think we win more games if Cutler isn't turning the ball over like was in the redzone two years ago. Certainly last year the Bears win four more games were it not for his redzone problems. So it's not locked in stone that Cutler only helps his team win. He does a lot to help them lose and not enough of one of the other to be worth the moping, IMO.

jhns
04-21-2010, 12:16 PM
Now drop the Cutler crap

Sure, right after we replace him.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 12:17 PM
Sure, right after we replace him.

His replacement proved to be adequate.

TailgateNut
04-21-2010, 12:26 PM
You inferred it in the comment that I quoted.

re: McDaniels, he doesn't need to be defended, I do it on my own. The reason I argue with people like you is because it has been so frustrating to watch what was once a strong, intelligent fan base devolve into one of misguided privilege and delusion.
You won't give McDaniels a chance. You want immediate gratification, and are not wise enough to see the merit in what he's doing. People like you think that he is going to be a bust because he traded away a big-headed QB that hasn't done **** in the NFL in 4 seasons and a malcontent WR who didn't want to be here and was too big of a risk to sign to an offer that he wanted.
If Cutler has done anything of notoriety (i.e. win football games at a high percentage) please let me know. You say that Cutler is better than Orton, has he proven that other than passing your eye test? No, he hasn't. Could he prove otherwise in the future? I suppose he could. Now if we were talking about McDaniels getting rid of a young Dan Marino or John Elway, your position would have some merit, because those guys actually ****ing produced early on...on vastly inferior teams when compared to the 2007 and 2008 Broncos squad.

Now drop the Cutler crap and move on with the current players on the roster, give this well regarded young coach a chance, and stop making Bronco fans look like a bunch of good time charlies who complain the moment any adversity arises.

Not that this spoiled brat will understand. IMO he's of the 98-99 variety broncofandom. There's quite a few of them.

jhns
04-21-2010, 12:30 PM
His replacement proved to be adequate.

See and this is why it isn't dropped. The offense fell off a ton after Cutler. Orton did not look good out there. I told everyone right after the trade that we would have line problems. It wasn't the Cutler trade that did it to you guys it is a million different things that all just suddenly happened. It isn't that Cutler makes guys around him like Royal better, it is that Royal forgot how to play receiver. Etc....

If you guys didn't try so hard to justify a dumb move, we wouldn't have these conversations. It is like the fan base doesn't even care if he is accountable for what he does. I don't get it personally but I can live with that. Again though, the comedy spewed by a lot of Bronco fans makes it hard to pass up on these arguments.

If you really want to stop talking about Jay, stop trying to justify the move. No one that thinks it was dumb is buying the crap you guys spew and no ones mind will change on either side of the subject. I enjoy the arguments so it isn't up to me to end them.

jhns
04-21-2010, 12:34 PM
Not that this spoiled brat will understand. IMO he's of the 98-99 variety broncofandom. There's quite a few of them.

LOL

The old fat guy doesn't like them younger kids. They ruin everything!

bowtown
04-21-2010, 12:51 PM
See and this is why it isn't dropped. The offense fell off a ton after Cutler. Orton did not look good out there. I told everyone right after the trade that we would have line problems. It wasn't the Cutler trade that did it to you guys it is a million different things that all just suddenly happened. It isn't that Cutler makes guys around him like Royal better, it is that Royal forgot how to play receiver. Etc....

If you guys didn't try so hard to justify a dumb move, we wouldn't have these conversations. It is like the fan base doesn't even care if he is accountable for what he does. I don't get it personally but I can live with that. Again though, the comedy spewed by a lot of Bronco fans makes it hard to pass up on these arguments.

If you really want to stop talking about Jay, stop trying to justify the move. No one that thinks it was dumb is buying the crap you guys spew and no ones mind will change on either side of the subject. I enjoy the arguments so it isn't up to me to end them.

http://www.schwa.de/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/boredom.jpg

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 02:14 PM
If you guys didn't try so hard to justify a dumb move, we wouldn't have these conversations.

There is currently no evidence to support your assertion that it was a dumb move.

Evidence > Speculation

jhns
04-21-2010, 02:31 PM
There is currently no evidence to support your assertion that it was a dumb move.

Evidence > Speculation

There is evidence that it was a dumb move. You see, unlike you guys, McDaniels doesn't even try to justify it with play. His only justification is Cutler got mad about trade talk and handled a single situation wrong. If he came out and said he couldn't use Cutler in his system because Cutler turns it over to much, at least he would have gotten rid of him for good reason. Instead the only reason is that a 25 year old got upset and handled one situation wrong.

Anyways, McDaniels was asked before the trade "At what point would it be in the best interest of the Broncos to trade Cutler?" His response? "Never." Exact quotes. I will get you the link when I get to my computer in an hour.

Mike Shanahan, Pat Bowlen, and John Elway have all said Cutler is a good player and Elway even said that trade is a mistake. All of these guys say Cutler can grow into something special. To me, he will need to get better coaching at this point to accomplish that, but maybe Martz will be that better coach. I tend to side with McDaniels, Shanahan, Elway, and Bowlen when it comes to who is a good player or not. They know more than you, sorry to say.

Anyways, that's just my opinion on it.

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 03:02 PM
There is evidence that it was a dumb move. You see, unlike you guys, McDaniels doesn't even try to justify it with play. His only justification is Cutler got mad about trade talk and handled a single situation wrong. If he came out and said he couldn't use Cutler in his system because Cutler turns it over to much, at least he would have gotten rid of him for good reason. Instead the only reason is that a 25 year old got upset and handled one situation wrong.

Anyways, McDaniels was asked before the trade "At what point would it be in the best interest of the Broncos to trade Cutler?" His response? "Never." Exact quotes. I will get you the link when I get to my computer in an hour.

Mike Shanahan, Pat Bowlen, and John Elway have all said Cutler is a good player and Elway even said that trade is a mistake. All of these guys say Cutler can grow into something special. To me, he will need to get better coaching at this point to accomplish that, but maybe Martz will be that better coach. I tend to side with McDaniels, Shanahan, Elway, and Bowlen when it comes to who is a good player or not. They know more than you, sorry to say.

Anyways, that's just my opinion on it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4001880

I'm sure you'll find some way to spin this, but I don't see where Elway is claiming that the Broncos made a mistake. In fact, this article seems to indicate the opposite.

The reality is, Cutler threw a hissy fit, McD didn't tell this ****ing baby what he wanted to hear, and the baby demanded a trade. I want to know how this is a so called "dumb move" when there was really only one direction to move in?

epicSocialism4tw
04-21-2010, 03:30 PM
This is even more proof that McD wants Tebow.

jhns
04-21-2010, 03:33 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4001880

I'm sure you'll find some way to spin this, but I don't see where Elway is claiming that the Broncos made a mistake. In fact, this article seems to indicate the opposite.

The reality is, Cutler threw a hissy fit, McD didn't tell this ****ing baby what he wanted to hear, and the baby demanded a trade. I want to know how this is a so called "dumb move" when there was really only one direction to move in?

Why would I need to spin Elway not saying anything? Are you under the impression that this is the only thing Elway has said on the subject?

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12059290

"I wish it hadn't come to this,"

"I'm disappointed . . . It's a sad day for one of the elite franchises in football and all the Broncos fans, and I'm sad."

"Too bad they couldn't find a way to fix it. I had been hoping they could put it back together."

"Jay's a great talent. I think he can really play the game and has a chance to be a great quarterback in his career,"

From a distance, and quietly, Elway followed the entire ugly McJayGate episode and was affected "because I'm a fan like everyone else in Denver. I want the Broncos to be one of the best teams in the league and win the Super Bowl again. I hope that this works out for everybody."

But, said No. 1 in your heart and No. 7 in your program, "There's only one way to describe it. Sad."

There are a few of the quotes..... I'm sure you have your own spin though.

Sorry, that is not how any other organization handles it. No successful organization does whatever the player demands. If a player needs put in his place, you do it. First off, Cutler was said to have already sent stuff to Denver and was going to show at the next camp. That camp was before the draft. If anything, they should have at least waited to see if he showed at camp before trading him. In the end, they should have simply said "You don't want to play? Good. Have fun in retirement."

Steve Sewell
04-21-2010, 04:35 PM
Very well. The article that I found was the only one that came up in my search.

In any case, are you really saying that it would be a good situation for the Broncos to force Cutler to play for them? That it's a healthy situation to have a player that doesn't want to be there in the most important position on your team?

And again, you've used examples of respected people saying nice things about Cutler to support your point. That doesn't change the fact that this player has not produced in his 4 years in the league, or the fact that the player replacing him produced similar results. There were plenty of respected NFL people who said nice things about players like Jeff George and Ryan Leaf.

When Cutler does something noteworthy, then you can come back and claim trading him was a dumb move. At this time, there is really nothing of substance to back your claims.

Popps
04-21-2010, 04:52 PM
His only justification is Cutler got mad about trade talk and handled a single situation wrong.


And because sucked.

But, yea, also that he got mad.


(But also because he sucked.)

BroncoInferno
04-21-2010, 05:45 PM
His only justification is Cutler got mad about trade talk and handled a single situation wrong.

Well, that, and he's an absolute turnover machine.

Cito Pelon
04-21-2010, 06:13 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4001880

I'm sure you'll find some way to spin this, but I don't see where Elway is claiming that the Broncos made a mistake. In fact, this article seems to indicate the opposite.

The reality is, Cutler threw a hissy fit, McD didn't tell this ****ing baby what he wanted to hear, and the baby demanded a trade. I want to know how this is a so called "dumb move" when there was really only one direction to move in?

Elway in fact was very happy with Orton. Said so many a time in 2009 during the season when he appeared on radio every Monday.

epicSocialism4tw
04-21-2010, 07:10 PM
Elway in fact was very happy with Orton. Said so many a time in 2009 during the season when he appeared on radio every Monday.

Just like everyone else, he probably appreciates Orton's effort.

If you put that effort into a good player, like Elway, then "happy" becomes "ecstatic".