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View Full Version : What would rather have Al Smith OR the 14th pick on Thursday


baja
04-16-2010, 09:34 AM
guess what's coming...

FIXED IT.

HILife
04-16-2010, 09:35 AM
Let the hate begin

MangoBuffs
04-16-2010, 09:36 AM
The pick, easy.

TheDave
04-16-2010, 09:37 AM
I'm going to be one grumpy SOB when seattle is on the clock at #14...

Steve Sewell
04-16-2010, 09:38 AM
guess what's coming...

You may want to re-word the poll question, it doesn't make any sense at the moment.

OBF1
04-16-2010, 09:38 AM
This message is hidden because baja is on your ignore list.

baja
04-16-2010, 09:40 AM
This message is hidden because baja is on your ignore list.

I had a ticket for you on the 50yard line for the home opener to bad you won't see this to claim it.

cmhargrove
04-16-2010, 09:40 AM
I hate to say it, but we probably won't know what "the Fonz" has until either Bailey or Goodman get injured. You have to remember that those guys played really well, so it's no surprise he couldn't beat either for a starting spot.

Nickel back is a change of position, and has a whole different set of assignments.

We won't know if he is a great Corner until he plays Corner.

The Joker
04-16-2010, 09:41 AM
14th pick.

I'm pulling for Alphonso, I still think he can be a player for us.

But the trade was always a suspect move, and that 14th pick could have landed us a stud interior O-Line player which we desperately need and freed us up to use #11 on the BPA.

Beantown Bronco
04-16-2010, 09:41 AM
I had a ticket for you on the 50yard line for the home opener to bad you won't see this to claim it.

Now he can :)

Dagmar
04-16-2010, 09:42 AM
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0908/grab-a-beer-some-popcorn-demotivational-poster-1251488347.gif

jhns
04-16-2010, 09:43 AM
I hate to say it, but we probably won't know what "the Fonz" has until either Bailey or Goodman get injured. You have to remember that those guys played really well, so it's no surprise he couldn't beat either for a starting spot.

Nickel back is a change of position, and has a whole different set of assignments.

We won't know if he is a great Corner until he plays Corner.

I'm pretty sure he played 4 most of the year. They wanted him to be the nickle but he couldn't handle it.

He may turn out good at some point but that trade was horrible. Mid first rounders shouldn't be guys you plan to start in 4-5 years.

Rabb
04-16-2010, 09:47 AM
it's impossible to answer

what if Denver picks someone and reaches for them there...and we have to watch that guy develop instead of contribute immediately

then we are essentially a year behind where we are with Smith right now but for more money

I am staying with Smith, it's way too early to even think about this

HILife
04-16-2010, 09:49 AM
I had a ticket for you on the 50yard line for the home opener to bad you won't see this to claim it.

lol.......Oh, damn it. My bad. Now they are going to see this.

Cool Breeze
04-16-2010, 09:49 AM
I'd like to win a million dollars
seems just as pertinent

Popps
04-16-2010, 09:49 AM
The risk/reward for the trade looks right now like the risk won out. But, again... let's see where things are mid-season/end of season. I'm indifferent about the trade until I really know the results.

If we were drafting at 14, we still face the same risks with a young player that we faced with Smith.

It's a wait and see thing. Would be fun to have another pick, but I think Smith was an intriguing pick, himself. We shall see.

bowtown
04-16-2010, 09:55 AM
I would like to have the pick back and then have Alphonzo reenter the draft, and then pick him with the 14th pick. I think we just took him a year too early.

Requiem
04-16-2010, 09:55 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. I like Smith, but it is hard to argue against having #14 in this class.

ScottXray
04-16-2010, 09:58 AM
I would like to have the pick back and then have Alphonzo reenter the draft, and then pick him with the 14th pick. I think we just took him a year too early.

Lets hope this is true. Then we got a first round pick a year early. If he does perform like that this year then we did allright. As of now I wish we had the pick back.
If wishes were dimes I'd be a friggin millionaire.

Rohirrim
04-16-2010, 09:59 AM
The pick. Hands down.

Garcia Bronco
04-16-2010, 09:59 AM
14th pick. Smith has a chance because it's takes most corners 3 years to adjust to the game.

DBroncos4life
04-16-2010, 10:02 AM
I would take Joe Haden or Kyle Wilson over Smith any week.

Lolad
04-16-2010, 10:02 AM
I would really like to know if we stayed at the spot we were at would he have landed in our lap? Just imagine we could have two #1's and two #2's.

azbroncfan
04-16-2010, 10:07 AM
Anyone saying Smith is a true homer. Could of taken a better CB at 14 than Smith probably too. Smith may turn out into a player but he didn't show much last year.

TheReverend
04-16-2010, 10:16 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. I like Smith, but it is hard to argue against having #14 in this class.

Everyone knew this year would be stacked last year...

Gob
04-16-2010, 10:17 AM
I actually like Alf, I liked him before last years draft and didn't mind us getting him, except for what we had to give up to do it. There is no way he is worth the 14th. He dropped into the second round (past us twice) of last years ok draft, but is worth a 14th in this stocked one? No way. He could turn out great but is still at least as risky with probably less upside then anyone likely to be taken at 14th.

underrated29
04-16-2010, 10:19 AM
hell I would take Dez at 11 and either spoon,graham,iupati,wilson,spiller,pierre paul at 14......If Dez makes it to 11 that is. One of those others will be there at 14.

DarkHorse
04-16-2010, 10:22 AM
I chose Smith.

Rugby7
04-16-2010, 10:28 AM
I chose the pick but there is no sense in getting upset about it. The pick could still be a bust and Smith could still pan out. At least 2nd round contracts cost less. Move on and quit whining.

baja
04-16-2010, 10:32 AM
I chose the pick but there is no sense in getting upset about it. The pick could still be a bust and Smith could still pan out. At least 2nd round contracts cost less. Move on and quit whining.

It's a simple question where do you get whining out of this?

NFLBRONCO
04-16-2010, 10:34 AM
A team that has as many needs esp ol front 7 they trade a high pick in a great draft for a cb. Esp doing it unprepared and unorganized like they were last year.

We could have bolstered each side of the ball by the 14 pick and still had 43 and 45. We could have reloaded our core pretty fast for along time with great selections. Would have given us ammo to move up in draft even for one of the great players and still had 2 #2's in our pocket.

jhns
04-16-2010, 10:35 AM
It's a simple question where do you get whining out of this?

I whine about it. Maybe he wasn't talking to you. Then again, I whine about everything McDaniels does other than how he handles free agency.

montrose
04-16-2010, 10:38 AM
If we were drafting at 14, we still face the same risks with a young player that we faced with Smith.

This. Alphonso was one of my favorite prospects in last year's draft and I'm glad we've got a guy to develop at the CB spot. That #14 pick could produce an Alphonso Smith, a Knowshon Moreno, a Willie Middlebrooks, a Trevor Pryce or a Jarvis Moss. Some picks hit, some don't - Xanders made this 1st round pick a year early by taking a projected 1st rounder a year ago and paying him at 2nd round money.

baja
04-16-2010, 10:39 AM
I whine about it. Maybe he wasn't talking to you. Then again, I whine about everything McDaniels does other than how he handles free agency.

whine on then.

gyldenlove
04-16-2010, 10:44 AM
This. Alphonso was one of my favorite prospects in last year's draft and I'm glad we've got a guy to develop at the CB spot. That #14 pick could produce an Alphonso Smith, a Knowshon Moreno, a Willie Middlebrooks, a Trevor Pryce or a Jarvis Moss. Some picks hit, some don't - Xanders made this 1st round pick a year early by taking a projected 1st rounder a year ago and paying him at 2nd round money.

That would be true if all things were even, but they clearly aren't.

1. The 2009 draft class was even before the draft considered weak, while the 2010 draft class is considered one of the strongest in many years.

2. Last year we were underprepared for the draft, this year we have had a full offseason to prepare.

3. Al Smith would not have been a 1st round pick this year, heck he compares poorly to about 5 or 6 of the CBs in this years draft when considering size and speed.

For these reasons I would much rather have the pick, it would give us a bigger talent pool with more talent to choose from, we would be better prepared to use it and we would be able to get a much higher ranked CB talent if that was still the way we would go.

montrose
04-16-2010, 10:46 AM
That would be true if all things were even, but they clearly aren't.

1. The 2009 draft class was even before the draft considered weak, while the 2010 draft class is considered one of the strongest in many years.

2. Last year we were underprepared for the draft, this year we have had a full offseason to prepare.

3. Al Smith would not have been a 1st round pick this year, heck he compares poorly to about 5 or 6 of the CBs in this years draft when considering size and speed.

For these reasons I would much rather have the pick, it would give us a bigger talent pool with more talent to choose from, we would be better prepared to use it and we would be able to get a much higher ranked CB talent if that was still the way we would go.

That makes sense to me, although I think Xanders saw value in getting the kid in a year early so that, during this rebuilding process, he had a years jump on learning since the secondary is aging. Now, if this is Champ's last year at CB, Alphonso has two years of learning before stepping in on the outside.

jhns
04-16-2010, 10:49 AM
That would be true if all things were even, but they clearly aren't.

1. The 2009 draft class was even before the draft considered weak, while the 2010 draft class is considered one of the strongest in many years.

2. Last year we were underprepared for the draft, this year we have had a full offseason to prepare.

3. Al Smith would not have been a 1st round pick this year, heck he compares poorly to about 5 or 6 of the CBs in this years draft when considering size and speed.


Great post and this covers every reason I hated the pick from the time it happened. It never has made any sense.

jhns
04-16-2010, 10:51 AM
That makes sense to me, although I think Xanders saw value in getting the kid in a year early so that, during this rebuilding process, he had a years jump on learning since the secondary is aging. Now, if this is Champ's last year at CB, Alphonso has two years of learning before stepping in on the outside.

This reasoning makes sense if we think Champ may be on his way out. The question I have is what makes you think Champ is on his way out? Both him and Goodman are the same age and both played at a very high level last season.

oubronco
04-16-2010, 10:55 AM
I had a ticket for you on the 50yard line for the home opener to bad you won't see this to claim it.

OOH OOH OOH Mr. Carteeer

baja
04-16-2010, 10:56 AM
?

Mr.Meanie
04-16-2010, 11:06 AM
This reasoning makes sense if we think Champ may be on his way out. The question I have is what makes you think Champ is on his way out? Both him and Goodman are the same age and both played at a very high level last season.

Contract and age combined I'm sure. It's not definite, but its' a possibility we need to prepare for.

Gob
04-16-2010, 11:08 AM
No first round pick is a sure thing but that doesn't mean they are the same value as any other round pick or even a experienced solid vet. Early-mid first round picks are chosen because of upside, if they don't bust they are more likely to be able to play at a level far enough over the other prospects that they are worth the extra money and opportunity cost. Alf isn't really an upside pick (small and average speed), and while he could turn out to be a good player there is little reason to believe he will be so much better then cb's likely to be taken in the first two rounds of this year that he is worth the opportunity cost.

WolfpackGuy
04-16-2010, 11:08 AM
I thought they were trading to get Maualuga...instead they got one of the Lollipop Guild...

kappys
04-16-2010, 11:13 AM
Its easy to criticize but so many picks including first rounders fail in the NFL.

If we had 3 firsts last year, lets say the 20th pick overall - then I wonder who they would have chosen. If the answer would still have been Phonse then it was a reasonable selection, if not then its a shame

SoDak Bronco
04-16-2010, 11:17 AM
Not sure if its been said yet..But I got two words for you baja..Ed MFin Reed.

baja
04-16-2010, 11:22 AM
I don't get it ???

misturanderson
04-16-2010, 11:25 AM
Everyone knew this year would be stacked last year...

Not necessarily at DB though. And certainly not at CB.

Steve Sewell
04-16-2010, 11:29 AM
Its easy to criticize but so many picks including first rounders fail in the NFL.

If we had 3 firsts last year, lets say the 20th pick overall - then I wonder who they would have chosen. If the answer would still have been Phonse then it was a reasonable selection, if not then its a shame

I bet it would have been him. That's why they did it.

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14860818

According to the above article, the draft philosophy for the Broncos and the Patriots is that they have a much, much smaller draft board than other teams, in some cases it is smaller than 100 players, whereas most other teams will rank players from 1 to 250 (or whatever the total number of players drafted would be). They only draft players that fit the mold of the type of player and person that they want.

Cosmo
04-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Ok, I chose Smith and here are the reasons.

Everyone whining about him being slow is dumb. He ran a 4.47, and we know the electronic timing stuff isn't as accurate as its cracked up to be (See Joe Haden & Taylor Mays, 2 sides of the coin)

Smith played outside his whole career and had to play inside for the first time and in the pros.

His instincts are excellent and is currently learning from the best. He broke Dre Bly's ACC int record in college.

Small means crap, Antoine Winfield has had an excellent career thus far.

Also, most rookie corners drafted high start and you get to see them sink or swim. We rarely saw Smith play. Just because we signed Law to play nickel doesn't mean Smith is a bust. I believe he is there to replace Bailey or Goodman and will play well outside.

Popps
04-16-2010, 11:34 AM
Ray Rice ran for 450 yards his rookie season. He was drafted in the 2nd round. Luckily the Ravens didn't release him or deem him a failure, as he went on to be arguably the team's offensive MVP the following year.

Had the Ravens traded 20 draft slots or so from the prior year for him... I'm quite sure that they'd be overjoyed with the risk/reward in that scenario. (And overjoyed to be paying him 2nd round, not mid 1st round money.)

I'd also assume the Ravens enjoyed having his 1350 yards rushing last season, as opposed to waiting another year.

Again, we won't know the answer to this story until 1-2 years from now. It certainly entailed risk. Then again, it also alleviated salary risk... as we already had 2 1st round picks last year, and one fairly high pick this year.

Given Smith's lackluster rookie season, it certainly looks like the risk/reward didn't work in our favor. But, we're not even 50 pages into a 300 page book. It's just way too early to make definitive statements about this move.

Beyond that, few teams in the league were as good at blowing first round picks as we were in the past decade. So, Broncos fans should be well aware that 1st round picks come with risk, whether you traded for them or not...


Post SB first round picks...

1998 30 Marcus Nash Wide receiver Tennessee BUST
1999 31 Al Wilson Linebacker Tennessee STUD
2000 15 Deltha O'Neal Cornerback California [m]BUST
2001 24 Willie Middlebrooks Cornerback Minnesota BUST
2002 19 Ashley Lelie Wide receiver Hawaii BUST
2003 20 George Foster Offensive tackle Georgia BUST
2004 17 D. J. Williams Linebacker Miami (FL) [n]
2005 — No pick — — [o]
2006 11 Jay Cutler Quarterback Vanderbilt [p] LOSER
2007 17 Jarvis Moss Defensive end Florida [q] BUST
2008 12 Ryan Clady Offensive tackle Boise State STUD

misturanderson
04-16-2010, 11:35 AM
I have no problem with the risk that they took to take Smith. He was a prospect that produced amazingly well at the college level and had he been an inch taller or a quarter step faster, he would have been picked before we had a chance at him. Despite what people seem to think, instincts are probably more important than any other innate skill (ie, speed and size) that a player can have and Smith seemed to have great instincts in college.

I also have no problem with using a 2010 1st to get a top 10 2nd in 2009. That is how you get that kind of pick. It's a risk if your team doesn't perform well, but that's the nature of the beast.

Despite that, and the fact that Smith didn't light it up in his first year, it seems like it would be nice to have another top 15 selection this year instead and pick up Haden or Thomas to fill our need at CB. No sense dwelling on it though.

TheReverend
04-16-2010, 11:36 AM
Not necessarily at DB though. And certainly not at CB.

Couldn't disagree more. Hell, I think his old Wake teammate Ghee will be better than he will.

Cosmo
04-16-2010, 11:37 AM
Besides. Smith = High Character, instinctive, smart, hard working player.

Exactly as McD wants and I'm sure he will work out.

Kaylore
04-16-2010, 11:37 AM
The pick obviously. I think Smith will improve and become a solid corner, but he'll probably never live up to expectations.

Gob
04-16-2010, 11:43 AM
Just out of curiosity, for those who chose Smith, if we didn't have Smith and still had the 14th, which current cb's in the NFL would you be ok with trading the 14th for, and do you think Smith is at or likely to be at their level in the future?

jhns
04-16-2010, 11:44 AM
Beyond that, few teams in the league were as good at blowing first round picks as we were in the past decade. So, Broncos fans should be well aware that 1st round picks come with risk, whether you traded for them or not...


That is kind of the reason we hate dumb moves at this point. Why handicap yourself by not even selecting first round talent with your firsts? Yes, even undrafted guys become stars sometimes. That doesn't change the facts. Even a great coach like Shanahan couldn't overcome bad drafting decisions.

gyldenlove
04-16-2010, 11:53 AM
That makes sense to me, although I think Xanders saw value in getting the kid in a year early so that, during this rebuilding process, he had a years jump on learning since the secondary is aging. Now, if this is Champ's last year at CB, Alphonso has two years of learning before stepping in on the outside.

I agree that the one year could make a difference, the biggest thing for me is trading a pick we could prepare very well for to get a pick that we weren't as well prepared to spend.

misturanderson
04-16-2010, 11:53 AM
Couldn't disagree more. Hell, I think his old Wake teammate Ghee will be better than he will.

And during the draft last year there was little indication that this draft was stocked at CB. That was the overwhelming opinion that I saw. Yes the DL prospects were supposed to be better, the OL prospects may have been better, the safeties were supposed to be better, lots of positions were seen as being better this year than last, but CB wasn't one of them.

Who, at the time of the 2009 draft, was considered to be a much better prospect than Smith and should have been available outside of the top 10 in this draft? From what I remember in early 2009, Trevard Lindley was seen as probably the best pro prospect at the CB position coming out this year.

Popps
04-16-2010, 11:58 AM
That is kind of the reason we hate dumb moves at this point. Why handicap yourself by not even selecting first round talent with your firsts? Yes, even undrafted guys become stars sometimes. That doesn't change the facts. Even a great coach like Shanahan couldn't overcome bad drafting decisions.

If we believed Smith to be a first round quality pick, trading slots for next year for the right to acquire him last year was a wise move.

Again, if the Ravens had traded for the right to pick Rice, it would have been a great move. (Pay less and get a 1st rounder, sooner.)

You're also discounting the fact that we had massive holes in our secondary and special teams, and having a player like Smith SOONER to develop served a very specific purpose last year and potentially this year.


Again, I don't think anyone is claiming that the move didn't carry risk. It did. But, good moves do. So do bad moves. We simply have no way of knowing which this was, just yet.

My point is, people acting as if this is some sort of franchise-destroying failure on the staff's part are way out of line. As I sated, we butchered our expensive 1st round picks for a decade. Let's not pretend as if having a middle 1st this year would be a guaranteed success.

It is what it is. A move that carried some risk that may or may not work in our favor.

TheReverend
04-16-2010, 12:00 PM
And during the draft last year there was little indication that this draft was stocked at CB. That was the overwhelming opinion that I saw. Yes the DL prospects were supposed to be better, the OL prospects may have been better, the safeties were supposed to be better, lots of positions were seen as being better this year than last, but CB wasn't one of them.

Who, at the time of the 2009 draft, was considered to be a much better prospect than Smith and should have been available outside of the top 10 in this draft? From what I remember in early 2009, Trevard Lindley was seen as probably the best pro prospect at the CB position coming out this year.

You're completely ignoring the fact that with the looming CBA issues and discussions heating up towards rookie pay slotting, we knew everyone and their mother would be declaring eligibility.

Not to mention you're handcuffing a first round pick to CB prospects which is simply absurd.

DrFate
04-16-2010, 12:09 PM
... had he been an inch taller or a quarter step faster, he would have been picked before we had a chance at him.

LOL

I'm a big fan of this reasoning. I mean, *if* he were 5 inches taller, 50 pounds heavier, and could throw a football - he'd be Peyton Manning.

So - it's a great move?

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:19 PM
I didn't like the trade because of the cost to get him, but I am an Alphonso Smith fan. He showed glimpses of being a good corner early in the season and I like the impact he had in the return game late in year. When you watch him play, it's obvious that he is one of the top 3 pure athletes on the team.

Factor in his high level of production at the collegiate level, Smith is a guy with the combination of tools and skills to be a Pro Bowl corner.

Zoobie
04-16-2010, 12:24 PM
i'd go with Phons, he costs much less than a top 15 pick and it's been one year and people are all ready ****ting their pants.

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:26 PM
Post SB first round picks...

1998 30 Marcus Nash Wide receiver Tennessee BUST
1999 31 Al Wilson Linebacker Tennessee STUD
2000 15 Deltha O'Neal Cornerback California [m]BUST
2001 24 Willie Middlebrooks Cornerback Minnesota BUST
2002 19 Ashley Lelie Wide receiver Hawaii BUST
2003 20 George Foster Offensive tackle Georgia BUST
2004 17 D. J. Williams Linebacker Miami (FL) [n]
2005 No pick [o]
2006 11 Jay Cutler Quarterback Vanderbilt [p] LOSER
2007 17 Jarvis Moss Defensive end Florida [q] BUST
2008 12 Ryan Clady Offensive tackle Boise State STUD

O'Neal wasn't a bust, neither was Lelie or Foster.

A bust is a player that gives you little production or practically close to nothing. That's Nash, Middlebrooks and Moss, not the former players.

baja
04-16-2010, 12:31 PM
Ray Rice ran for 450 yards his rookie season. He was drafted in the 2nd round. Luckily the Ravens didn't release him or deem him a failure, as he went on to be arguably the team's offensive MVP the following year.

Had the Ravens traded 20 draft slots or so from the prior year for him... I'm quite sure that they'd be overjoyed with the risk/reward in that scenario. (And overjoyed to be paying him 2nd round, not mid 1st round money.)

I'd also assume the Ravens enjoyed having his 1350 yards rushing last season, as opposed to waiting another year.

Again, we won't know the answer to this story until 1-2 years from now. It certainly entailed risk. Then again, it also alleviated salary risk... as we already had 2 1st round picks last year, and one fairly high pick this year.

Given Smith's lackluster rookie season, it certainly looks like the risk/reward didn't work in our favor. But, we're not even 50 pages into a 300 page book. It's just way too early to make definitive statements about this move.

Beyond that, few teams in the league were as good at blowing first round picks as we were in the past decade. So, Broncos fans should be well aware that 1st round picks come with risk, whether you traded for them or not...


Post SB first round picks...

1998 30 Marcus Nash Wide receiver Tennessee BUST
1999 31 Al Wilson Linebacker Tennessee STUD
2000 15 Deltha O'Neal Cornerback California [m]BUST
2001 24 Willie Middlebrooks Cornerback Minnesota BUST
2002 19 Ashley Lelie Wide receiver Hawaii BUST
2003 20 George Foster Offensive tackle Georgia BUST
2004 17 D. J. Williams Linebacker Miami (FL) [n]
2005 No pick [o]
2006 11 Jay Cutler Quarterback Vanderbilt [p] LOSER
2007 17 Jarvis Moss Defensive end Florida [q] BUST
2008 12 Ryan Clady Offensive tackle Boise State STUD

Damn that record would get any coach fired

titan
04-16-2010, 12:34 PM
I'm rooting for Alphonso but I hate trading future first round picks for ANYBODY. Especially last year, with all the offseason changes and a new coaching staff, plus what was generally seen as a better draft class by nfl observers in 2010 compared to 2009. Historically whenever the broncos traded a future #1 pick for a player it didn't work out (Steve Tensi two #1's, Matt Robinson)

I'm really hoping McDaniels keeps the team's 2011 #1 pick off the market when discussing trades this year.

Rabb
04-16-2010, 12:35 PM
o'neal wasn't a bust, neither was lelie or foster.

a bust is a player that gives you little production or practically close to nothing. That's nash, middlebrooks and moss, not the former players.

rofl!

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:36 PM
I'm rooting for Alphonso but I hate trading future first round picks for ANYBODY. Especially last year, with all the offseason changes and a new coaching staff, plus what was generally seen as a better draft class by nfl observers in 2010 compared to 2009. Historically whenever the broncos traded a future #1 pick for a player it didn't work out (Steve Tensi two #1's, Matt Robinson)

I'm really hoping McDaniels keeps the team's 2011 #1 pick off the market when discussion trades this year.

It didn't work out real well for Chargers GM Bobby Beathard in the 90s either.

RonDaChamp24
04-16-2010, 12:37 PM
I just think it's hard to choose. I chose Smith because he hasn't really had a chance to produce yet. If we had 11 and 14 we'd be picking in the 1st round and be paying HUGE contracts to 2 unknown commodities. I'm fine with having Smith as I think he's going to end up being good for us. Especially now that we have 2 2nd's this year, I'm fine with having Smith instead of the 14.

montrose
04-16-2010, 12:39 PM
This reasoning makes sense if we think Champ may be on his way out. The question I have is what makes you think Champ is on his way out? Both him and Goodman are the same age and both played at a very high level last season.

Just figuring that the money he'll want won't be reasonable for a player whose skills are declining. Champ's still an outstanding CB, but we could argue his play has slipped a bit every year since 2007 so by 2011 - I doubt the Broncos would want to pay him what he'll want.

RonDaChamp24
04-16-2010, 12:40 PM
O'Neal wasn't a bust, neither was Lelie or Foster.

A bust is a player that gives you little production or practically close to nothing. That's Nash, Middlebrooks and Moss, not the former players.

No, they're busts. O'neal had 1 or 2 good seasons and was never great. Foster SUCKED. He even got cut by the LIONS. Lelie also was a bust. He did have 1 good season, and then went to the Falcons and the 49ers and... He sucks. He was a bust. People not considered busts are guys that produce and help their team win for YEARS not a year. Clady, Al Wilson, Cutler, none of those guys are busts. O'neal, Lelie, Foster, Nash, Middlebrooks are busts.

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:42 PM
rofl!

Foster was a starting offensive tackle on two playoff teams, including one that won the AFC West.

Lelie enjoyed a fine 1,000 yard season in 2004. It was his third year in the NFL, the ideal year for a breakout season for WR. He was a good player for Denver again in 2005, but wasn't asked to do as much on a AFC Championship team that was loaded having two 1,000 yard RBs and a Pro Bowl bound WR. When Lelie cried his way out of town, Denver got the same compensation in return (3rd, 4th) that the Cardinals got for Anquan Boldin this year!

Rabb
04-16-2010, 12:44 PM
Foster was a starting offensive tackle on two playoff teams, including one that won the AFC West.

Lelie enjoyed a fine 1,000 yard season in 2004. It was his third year in the NFL, the ideal year for a breakout season for WR. He was a good player for Denver again in 2005, but wasn't asked to do as much on a AFC Championship team that was loaded having two 1,000 yard RBs and a Pro Bowl bound WR. When Lelie cried his way out of town, Denver got the same compensation in return (3rd, 4th) that the Cardinals got for Anquan Boldin this year!

you can try and justify them not being busts all you like, but having one or two good seasons for a first round pick is a bust

montrose
04-16-2010, 12:44 PM
Damn that record would get any coach fired

Now look at the 2nd round picks:

99 - Montae Reagor (Bust)
99 - Lennie Friedman (Bust)
00 - Ian Gold (Solid)
00 - Kennoy Kennedy (Solid)
01 - Paul Toviessi (Bust! Bust! Bust!)
02 - Clinton Portis (Stud)
03 - Terry Pierce (Bust)
04 - Tatum Bell (Solid)
04 - Darius Watts (Bust)
05 - Darrent Williams (Solid)
06 - Tony Scheffler (Solid)
07 - Tim Crowder (Bust)
08 - Eddie Royal (Stud)

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:46 PM
No, they're busts. O'neal had 1 or 2 good seasons and was never great. Foster SUCKED. He even got cut by the LIONS. Lelie also was a bust. He did have 1 good season, and then went to the Falcons and the 49ers and... He sucks. He was a bust. People not considered busts are guys that produce and help their team win for YEARS not a year. Clady, Al Wilson, Cutler, none of those guys are busts. O'neal, Lelie, Foster, Nash, Middlebrooks are busts.

If you are going to factor in Lelie and Foster's post-Broncos careers as argument for them being busts, shouldn't O'Neal's Bengals career solidify his status as a non-bust?

Gob
04-16-2010, 12:47 PM
Foster was a starting offensive tackle on two playoff teams, including one that won the AFC West.

Lelie enjoyed a fine 1,000 yard season in 2004. It was his third year in the NFL, the ideal year for a breakout season for WR. He was a good player for Denver again in 2005, but wasn't asked to do as much on a AFC Championship team that was loaded having two 1,000 yard RBs and a Pro Bowl bound WR. When Lelie cried his way out of town, Denver got the same compensation in return (3rd, 4th) that the Cardinals got for Anquan Boldin this year!

I think they were busts for 1st round picks. There are higher expectations, 1st round picks are drafted to be difference makers. If just starting and being a decent player is enough then teams would be way more willing to trade 1st rounders for solid but unspectacular vets.

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:48 PM
you can try and justify them not being busts all you like, but having one or two good seasons for a first round pick is a bust

If that's the case, then 40-to-50 percent of all NFL first round picks are busts going by your criteria.

gyldenlove
04-16-2010, 12:49 PM
Now look at the 2nd round picks:

99 - Montae Reagor (Bust)
99 - Lennie Friedman (Bust)
00 - Ian Gold (Solid)
00 - Kennoy Kennedy (Solid)
01 - Paul Toviessi (Bust! Bust! Bust!)
02 - Clinton Portis (Stud)
03 - Terry Pierce (Bust)
04 - Tatum Bell (Solid)
04 - Darius Watts (Bust)
05 - Darrent Williams (Solid)
06 - Tony Scheffler (Solid)
07 - Tim Crowder (Bust)
08 - Eddie Royal (Stud)

Darius Watts doesn't get a triple bust? you must be in a good mood today.

Rabb
04-16-2010, 12:49 PM
If that's the case, then 40-to-50 percent of all NFL first round picks are busts going by your criteria.

agreed

that is why I have no problem with Smith versus a #14 pick, you don't need to be paying out 1st round money on a crap shoot

baja
04-16-2010, 12:50 PM
It didn't work out real well for Chargers GM Bobby Beathard in the 90s either.

On the other side of the coin it works out quite well for NE trading picks and players for future higher picks. What they got like 11 picks this year?

montrose
04-16-2010, 12:50 PM
darius watts doesn't get a triple bust? You must be in a good mood today.

lol

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:50 PM
agreed

that is why I have no problem with Smith versus a #14 pick, you don't need to be paying out 1st round money on a crap shoot

I consider a bust as someone who plays down to the bottom 10-25% of all first round picks. Lelie, O'Neal and Foster aren't in that group.

Rabb
04-16-2010, 12:53 PM
I consider a bust as someone who plays down to the bottom 10-25% of all first round picks. Lelie, O'Neal and Foster aren't in that group.

and that's cool, we all have our own idea of it...not debating that

I am just saying if I am a team owner and I am paying first round money...I am doing it with a win now attitude in mind

an immediate, impact player

not "hey I hope he has a couple good seasons" in mind

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 12:53 PM
On the other side of the coin it works out quite well for NE trading picks and players for future higher picks. What they got like 11 picks this year?

There is a distinct difference from trading down and stockpiling more picks compared to trading a higher percentage future pick for a lower percentage pick today without getting any added compensation for the risk.

Gob
04-16-2010, 12:58 PM
agreed

that is why I have no problem with Smith versus a #14 pick, you don't need to be paying out 1st round money on a crap shoot

Which lottery ticket would you pay more for, one with a 25 percent chance of giving you nothing and a 75 percent chance of giving you 100 bucks, or a lottery ticket that gave you a 50 percent chance at nothing, 25 percent chance at 100 bucks and a 25 percent chance at a thousand?

Rabb
04-16-2010, 01:00 PM
Which lottery ticket would you pay more for, one with a 25 percent chance of giving you nothing and a 75 percent chance of giving you 100 bucks, or a lottery ticket that gave you a 50 percent chance at nothing, 25 percent chance at 100 bucks and a 25 percent chance at a thousand?

don't try to confuse me, it's far too easy

I liked the pick then and I do now, I don't need to splain' why

Popps
04-16-2010, 01:02 PM
Damn that record would get any coach fired

Hey, and our drafts were much better than our FA moves. Don't look at our FA list from the 2000's without a barf-bag handy.

misturanderson
04-16-2010, 01:03 PM
You're completely ignoring the fact that with the looming CBA issues and discussions heating up towards rookie pay slotting, we knew everyone and their mother would be declaring eligibility.

Not to mention you're handcuffing a first round pick to CB prospects which is simply absurd.

If we didn't pick up a CB high in the draft last year we absolutely would be picking one high in the draft this year. That's why I'm handcuffing it in this specific situation. We have a relatively old CB corps, so it makes sense that we would have needed to pick up a decent CB either this year or last year.

All the CBA issue did was make most of the junior prospects declare which shouldn't have impacted what everyone was thinking in terms of CB prospects anyway (everybody did know that they would declare). This still was not considered to be a good draft for CBs DURING THE DRAFT LAST YEAR.

baja
04-16-2010, 01:05 PM
There is a distinct difference from trading down and stockpiling more picks compared to trading a higher percentage future pick for a lower percentage pick today without getting any added compensation for the risk.

Maybe that is why I said "on the other side of the coin"

I was responding to the style of that surfer GM in SD years back.

baja
04-16-2010, 01:06 PM
Hey, and our drafts were much better than our FA moves. Don't look at our FA list from the 2000's without a barf-bag handy.

Did you see Montrose's list of Shanny's 2nd rd picks -
scary

Gob
04-16-2010, 01:09 PM
don't try to confuse me, it's far too easy

I liked the pick then and I do now, I don't need to splain' why

I confused myself with that post. I am not sure why I thought it would simplify things.

Lolad
04-16-2010, 01:10 PM
If we didn't pick up a CB high in the draft last year we absolutely would be picking one high in the draft this year. That's why I'm handcuffing it in this specific situation. We have a relatively old CB corps, so it makes sense that we would have needed to pick up a decent CB either this year or last year.

All the CBA issue did was make most of the junior prospects declare which shouldn't have impacted what everyone was thinking in terms of CB prospects anyway (everybody did know that they would declare). This still was not considered to be a good draft for CBs DURING THE DRAFT LAST YEAR.

It would have been a position of need but I doubt it would have been a priority to get in the early rounds. I believe if we had that pick we would get Dez and an O-lineman or D-Lineman. Might even have gotten Dan Williams and Mclain in the 1st

Baba Booey
04-16-2010, 01:10 PM
I like Smith but I'd much rather have the pick.

misturanderson
04-16-2010, 01:13 PM
LOL

I'm a big fan of this reasoning. I mean, *if* he were 5 inches taller, 50 pounds heavier, and could throw a football - he'd be Peyton Manning.

So - it's a great move?

Way to completely miss the point. He has the size and speed necessary to compete in the NFL, he isn't 5'6" and runs a 5.0 40. He doesn't have IDEAL measurements, but his spectacular play in college made up for those slight physical shortcomings in terms of his prospects coming out of college.

It's shocking to me that people on THIS board are so oblivious to this fact considering that one of, if not THE, best defensive player we have has even worse physical shortcomings for his position than Smith does for a CB. Yet he managed to lead the entire league in sacks last year. Shockingly enough, he also put up huge numbers in college yet was passed up by every team 3 times before we finally picked him up just because he doesn't have ideal measurables.

I would take a CB that is 5'9" and runs a 4.48 40, but was setting interception records in college over a guy that's 5' 11" and runs a 4.3, but only put up average numbers any day of the week. I doubt that I'm alone in that regard.

misturanderson
04-16-2010, 01:17 PM
It would have been a position of need but I doubt it would have been a priority to get in the early rounds. I believe if we had that pick we would get Dez and an O-lineman or D-Lineman. Might even have gotten Dan Williams and Mclain in the 1st

I'm not saying that I wouldn't rather have the pick, but that is with hindsight. It also doesn't take any money issues into account (Smith is a much better risk money wise than the #14 pick).

I also don't think that there is any reason to be so bent out of shape over what we gave up. It really wasn't that out of the ordinary. If we had made the playoffs this year and had a pick in the mid to high 20s there would be essentially nothing to complain about except that the 2010 draft is SUPPOSED to be the deepest in years. We'll see if that plays out.

baja
04-16-2010, 01:23 PM
Way to completely miss the point. He has the size and speed necessary to compete in the NFL, he isn't 5'6" and runs a 5.0 40. He doesn't have IDEAL measurements, but his spectacular play in college made up for those slight physical shortcomings in terms of his prospects coming out of college.

It's shocking to me that people on THIS board are so oblivious to this fact considering that one of, if not THE, best defensive player we have has even worse physical shortcomings for his position than Smith does for a CB. Yet he managed to lead the entire league in sacks last year. Shockingly enough, he also put up huge numbers in college yet was passed up by every team 3 times before we finally picked him up just because he doesn't have ideal measurables.

I would take a CB that is 5'9" and runs a 4.48 40, but was setting interception records in college over a guy that's 5' 11" and runs a 4.3, but only put up average numbers any day of the week. I doubt that I'm alone in that regard.

You know they can stretch guys now to be 14% taller.

Pick Six
04-16-2010, 02:00 PM
You mean some people don't want to give last year's ROOKIE, Alphonso Smith, another year to prove his worth? Shocking, I tell ya...

RonDaChamp24
04-16-2010, 02:06 PM
If you are going to factor in Lelie and Foster's post-Broncos careers as argument for them being busts, shouldn't O'Neal's Bengals career solidify his status as a non-bust?

I did factor in O'neals career as a Bengal. He sucked there too... He's NEVER had 70 tackles in his career in a season, and he's only had more than 5 INT's twice (and both of those seasons he had 4 in 1 game). Deltha O'neal is and was a bust of a pick. You don't pick a player hoping for 2 good years out of 10. You want a guy that's going to contribute CONSISTENTLY for his entire career. Deltha didn't do that. Therefore, he's a bust. George Foster sucks too. So did Lelie. He was a 1 trick pony.

DrFate
04-16-2010, 02:20 PM
O'Neal lead the AFC in interceptions at least once...

And made the Pro Bowl

Twice...

I know he is villified around here, but to put him the 'bust' category is disingenuous

DrFate
04-16-2010, 02:23 PM
Way to completely miss the point. He has the size and speed necessary to compete in the NFL, he isn't 5'6" and runs a 5.0 40. He doesn't have IDEAL measurements...

That's not what you said. You said if he were taller and ran faster, he'd have been drafted higher. My point is - he ISN'T taller and he ISN'T faster. If you want to say he plays above his measurable stats - fine. Make that point. He certainly didn't prove it last year at the NFL level (sure his college stats were nice)

It is nonsensical for people to say 'if he were taller and faster...'. He's not. He's short (for his position). And he's not that fast (for his position).

And he slipped to where he did because of that. Why McDaniels traded the farm to reach for him at that point has never been answered.

Popps
04-16-2010, 02:58 PM
Why McDaniels traded the farm to reach for him at that point has never been answered.

He didn't trade the farm. Just stop.

Cito Pelon
04-16-2010, 07:40 PM
I hate to say it, but we probably won't know what "the Fonz" has until either Bailey or Goodman get injured. You have to remember that those guys played really well, so it's no surprise he couldn't beat either for a starting spot.

Nickel back is a change of position, and has a whole different set of assignments.

We won't know if he is a great Corner until he plays Corner.

This is true.

521 1N5
04-16-2010, 07:47 PM
Honestly I have been a McD supporter from day one, one of his biggest apologists with anyone I've talked to. But this move still makes me scratch my head. I'm sure he sees something in Smith that he really likes, but it was just too much in my opinion.

Bronco CB40
04-16-2010, 11:59 PM
Honestly I have been a McD supporter from day one, one of his biggest apologists with anyone I've talked to. But this move still makes me scratch my head. I'm sure he sees something in Smith that he really likes, but it was just too much in my opinion.

Trading a 2010 to draft Smith was a better move than taking Richard Quinn with a late second. The latter was by far McDaniels worst move from the 2009 Draft.

Smith's upside is a Pro Bowl caliber cornerback who can also contribute in the return game. Quinn is strictly a role player.

Bronco CB40
04-17-2010, 12:01 AM
O'Neal lead the AFC in interceptions at least once...

And made the Pro Bowl

Twice...

I know he is villified around here, but to put him the 'bust' category is disingenuous

I second this as a response to RonDaChamp24.

TheReverend
04-17-2010, 08:41 AM
This is true.

Well... they did sign a washed up has-been 40 year old to keep him off the field...