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no-pseudo-fan
04-11-2010, 08:41 PM
Info is just coming out.....Sounds like just a 5th round pick was given to the steelers.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/11/steelers-ship-santonio-to-the-jets/

no-pseudo-fan
04-11-2010, 08:43 PM
Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

Posted by Mike Florio on April 11, 2010 11:24 PM ET
What a strange weekend it has been for Santonio Holmes (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=3635).

Yesterday, we reported that Holmes is facing a four-game suspension under the substance abuse policy. Tonight, we're told that the Steelers have traded Holmes to the New York Jets.

It's the second time in less than a year that the Jets have swung a deal for a former first-round receiver. Last October, they acquired Braylon Edwards (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=3126) from the Browns.

Like Holmes, Edwards also is facing a likely suspension after pleading no contest to an assault that occurred only days before he was traded. Also, both players are signed through 2010.

Suddenly, HBO's Hard Knocks got a lot more interesting.

UPDATE: Bart Hubbuch of the New York Post reports that the Jets gave up a fifth-round draft pick for Holmes, who was the MVP of Super Bowl XLIII. A fifth-round draft pick for a former Super Bowl MVP

Archer81
04-11-2010, 08:43 PM
A first round pick who had a solid season and was a superbowl MVP was traded for a 5th rounder?


:Broncos:

baja
04-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Wow Josh sure popularized Sunday trades. We have one every Sunday now that he started the trend.

SoCalBronco
04-11-2010, 08:49 PM
Looming suspension or not....the Steelers got raped.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2010, 08:49 PM
Wow Josh sure popularized Sunday trades. We have one every Sunday now that he started the trend.

I think you're right! And this beautiful sunset over the Puget Sound, Josh was somehow involved there too, right?


Oh, and just a 5th rounder?

BroncoSojia
04-11-2010, 08:51 PM
B-marsh's value just dropped significantly after this deal.

SoDak Bronco
04-11-2010, 08:51 PM
this guy must be a POS if they let him go for a 5th rounder~

SoDak Bronco
04-11-2010, 08:52 PM
B-marsh's value just dropped significantly after this deal.

actually its the same...a 1st rounder and you can have him..if not, we get him :)

Fusionfrontman
04-11-2010, 08:54 PM
Wow. Unreal. What does this mean for Cotchery? Can he play slot? the guy is much more talented then people think.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 08:54 PM
B-marsh's value just dropped significantly after this deal.


We change his tender?


:Broncos:

Kid A
04-11-2010, 08:55 PM
Looming suspension or not....the Steelers got raped.

The Steelers are just glad their QB wasn't involved this time.

no-pseudo-fan
04-11-2010, 08:55 PM
This is all Ben's fault, the Steelers want to seem no nonsense so they trade Santonio, but Ben's issues are driving this.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 08:58 PM
Its all a racist plot to get rid of the talented black brother and keep the headcase white quarterback because he happens to be the face of the franchise...

http://tinyurl.com/yzf9pmq


:Broncos:

Florida_Bronco
04-11-2010, 09:00 PM
the steelers are just glad their qb wasn't involved this time.

lol

SouthStndJunkie
04-11-2010, 09:00 PM
Santonio Holmes for a 5th round pick?

Holy ****....talk about giving a player away.

Br0nc0Buster
04-11-2010, 09:01 PM
this is crazy
is this for realz?

I cannot believe the Steelers let him go for so cheap
wow...the Jets got a very good receiver for practically nothing

NFLBRONCO
04-11-2010, 09:03 PM
Steelers are going after BM

TheReverend
04-11-2010, 09:05 PM
Wow Josh sure popularized Sunday trades. We have one every Sunday now that he started the trend.

Little known fact: Josh McDaniels invented the wheel.

SouthStndJunkie
04-11-2010, 09:06 PM
Little known fact: Josh McDaniels invented the wheel.

....and promptly traded it because he did not like the way it squeaked.

Dagmar
04-11-2010, 09:06 PM
A fifth? Are you ****ing kidding? Wow.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 09:07 PM
....and promptly traded it because he did not like the way it squeaked.


And the wheel's axle turned in his playbook.


:Broncos:

baja
04-11-2010, 09:08 PM
this guy must be a POS if they let him go for a 5th rounder~


Don't be surprised to see Big Ben not far behind him see even the Rooneys are looking to Josh for leadership in the value of having a lunch pail lookerroom

SouthStndJunkie
04-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Santonio Holmes must be an even bigger turd than we realize for him to be shipped off for a 5th round draft pick.

26 year old WRs with a Super Bowl MVP, coming off a 79 catch 1248 yard and 5 TD season don't get traded for 5th round picks unless they are giant turds....even if they are facing a 4 game suspension.

Caveat Lector
04-11-2010, 09:13 PM
actually its the same...a 1st rounder and you can have him..if not, we get him :)

Yes but if the chances of someone giving up a 1st for a talented but wayward WR were 10%, they are now <1%...

TheReverend
04-11-2010, 09:14 PM
And the wheel's axle turned in his playbook.


:Broncos:

And the money he got for the wheel he spent on magic beans

baja
04-11-2010, 09:14 PM
The Big Ben thing have inspired the Rooneys to clean up the locker room.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 09:14 PM
And the money he got for the wheel he spent on magic beans

...who managed to duplicate the same record as the wheel.

Amazing how that works out.


:Broncos:

baja
04-11-2010, 09:16 PM
One good thing about this is it should show Marshall his only play is to suck up to McD and have the season of his life here.

TheReverend
04-11-2010, 09:21 PM
...who managed to duplicate the same record as the wheel.

Amazing how that works out.


:Broncos:

Missed reference. Was going good too.

tsiguy96
04-11-2010, 09:21 PM
The Big Ben thing have inspired the Rooneys to clean up the locker room.
this is exactly what it is, no question. they arent big on having people like that on the team. big ben is pretty controversial in pitt too for sure.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 09:24 PM
Missed reference. Was going good too.


Damn...


:Broncos:

iforgotmypassword
04-11-2010, 09:36 PM
wow Jets are gonna be tough come playoff time

Bigdawg26
04-11-2010, 09:44 PM
Man that is a steal... The jets are rapping ppl with trades for Edwards, Cromatie, and now they got Santonio Holmes for a bag of cheetos!!

tsiguy96
04-11-2010, 09:45 PM
ps holmes 1 strike away from year long suspension.

baja
04-11-2010, 09:47 PM
ps holmes 1 strike away from year long suspension.

....and yet they were not interested in Marshall

Caligula
04-11-2010, 09:47 PM
One good thing about this is it should show Marshall his only play is to suck up to McD and have the season of his life here.

How so? Marshall doesn't care what the Broncos get for him, and he's not going to be in Denver.

No matter where he goes, he's going to have to sign a new contract, and thats all he should care about.

Caligula
04-11-2010, 09:48 PM
....and yet they were not interested in Marshall

Uhmm.. how do you know?

It seems they were able to trade for a #1 WR for a 5th round draft pick instead of spending a 2nd. Seems like they made a great value choice, to me.

baja
04-11-2010, 09:49 PM
How so? Marshall doesn't care what the Broncos get for him, and he's not going to be in Denver.

No matter where he goes, he's going to have to sign a new contract, and thats all he should care about.

Here's my short answer. Wrong!

Archer81
04-11-2010, 09:49 PM
How so? Marshall doesn't care what the Broncos get for him, and he's not going to be in Denver.

No matter where he goes, he's going to have to sign a new contract, and thats all he should care about.


I would like to live in the world where I can make up random **** and claim it with absolute authority.

You dont work for the DNC do you?


:Broncos:

Caveat Lector
04-11-2010, 09:55 PM
....and yet they were not interested in Marshall

I'm sure they'd be very interested in Marshall if it only took a 5th to get him...

atomicbloke
04-11-2010, 10:00 PM
I remember there was a long thread before the 2006 draft, whether Shanny should use the 1st rounder on Chad Jackson or Santonio Holmes.

It was a long drawn out thread and ultimately it was concluded that the proper pick at #15 should be Chad Jackson, since he was the next Jerry Rice in the making, but Santonio Holmes also would be great. Several mock drafts had us taking Santonio Holmes.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 10:08 PM
I remember there was a long thread before the 2006 draft, whether Shanny should use the 1st rounder on Chad Jackson or Santonio Holmes.

It was a long drawn out thread and ultimately it was concluded that the proper pick at #15 should be Chad Jackson, since he was the next Jerry Rice in the making, but Santonio Holmes also would be great. Several mock drafts had us taking Santonio Holmes.


Then we traded up with St Louis and got the GQBOAT at 11.


:Broncos:

SouthStndJunkie
04-11-2010, 10:14 PM
....and yet they were not interested in Marshall

Not for a first round pick....if Denver were to have offered up B-Marsh for a measly 5th round pick, Rex Ryan would have been on that deal like it was a cheese steak.

baja
04-11-2010, 10:16 PM
I'm sure they'd be very interested in Marshall if it only took a 5th to get him...

I mean the "bad boy" issue.

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Steelers have Mike Wallace ready to step up and move into Holmes spot.
Aside from running an INSANE 40yard time in 2009, Wallace hasn't been busted with weed, involved in a "night-club incident", and isn't facing a 4 game suspension for substance abuse! ;)

Popps
04-11-2010, 10:18 PM
ps holmes 1 strike away from year long suspension.

Sound familiar?

Gosh, and people won't dole out a 1st rounder for Marshall?

400HZ
04-11-2010, 10:30 PM
The Jets locker room is turning into the cesspool of NFL humanity.

montrose
04-11-2010, 10:32 PM
Smart move by the Steelers, just move on. Cancers like Holmes drag you down, Pittsburgh knows what they're doing.

atomicbloke
04-11-2010, 10:33 PM
The Jets locker room is turning into the cesspool of NFL humanity.

They don't give out Super Bowls for having the nicest guys in the locker room.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2010, 10:33 PM
ps holmes 1 strike away from year long suspension.

That explains a lot.

baja
04-11-2010, 10:35 PM
They don't give out Super Bowls for having the nicest guys in the locker room.


All talent and no leadership doesn't work either

Borks147
04-11-2010, 10:56 PM
That explains a lot.

I guess...but worst case scenario he is gone for 2010, but they still have a (then) 27 year old super bowl mvp WR in 2011 for a 5th round pick.

ZONA
04-11-2010, 11:01 PM
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes

DHallblows
04-11-2010, 11:10 PM
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes

Obviously. The Mane would permanently crash if we traded Brandon for a 5th...

JCMElway
04-11-2010, 11:15 PM
Man, Marshall for a 2nd rounder is looking a whole lot more feasible now. Hmmm, maybe if we could get the Bucs or Rams to bite.....

SlipperyPete
04-11-2010, 11:17 PM
Man, Marshall for a 2nd rounder is looking a whole lot more feasible now.

If by feasible you mean impossible.

NFLBRONCO
04-11-2010, 11:29 PM
Man, Marshall for a 2nd rounder is looking a whole lot more feasible now. Hmmm, maybe if we could get the Bucs or Rams to bite.....

Gawd that blows I think your right

KEEP BRANDON MARSHALL PLEASE

azbroncfan
04-11-2010, 11:32 PM
http://static.open.salon.com/files/thatsracistgm751224856460.gif

This trade is. Pittsburgh keeps the troubled white QB and ships out the black WR. I am surprised no one mentioned this. Ha Ha I am sure Sharpton will have something up his sleeve.

Archer81
04-11-2010, 11:36 PM
http://static.open.salon.com/files/thatsracistgm751224856460.gif

This trade is. Pittsburgh keeps the troubled white QB and ships out the black WR. I am surprised no one mentioned this. Ha Ha I am sure Sharpton will have something up his sleeve.


I said this. Page 1.


:Broncos:

baja
04-11-2010, 11:39 PM
The Rooneys are color blind

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-11-2010, 11:42 PM
[IMG]This trade is. Pittsburgh keeps the troubled white QB and ships out the black WR. I am surprised no one mentioned this. Ha Ha I am sure Sharpton will have something up his sleeve.

Race is not an issue here.
Roethlisberger is guilty of being STUPID.
Holmes is guilty of marijuana possession and just FAILED an NFL drug test.

That being said, I still think Ben will be CUT if he screws up again.
(I'm ignoring the fact that he is a cheapskate and hasn't paid his tab at MANY bars in Pittsburgh!) ;)

azbroncfan
04-11-2010, 11:45 PM
Race is not an issue here.
Roethlisberger is guilty of being STUPID.
Holmes is guilty of marijuana possession and just FAILED an NFL drug test.

That being said, I still think Ben will be CUT if he screws up again.
(I'm ignoring the fact that he is a cheapskate and hasn't paid his tab at MANY bars in Pittsburgh!) ;)

I know I am just being a smart ass. QB vs WR end of argument. QB's are worth a lot more WR's are dime a dozen.

extralife
04-11-2010, 11:56 PM
I bet 30 other teams are feeling a little confused right now. Who wouldn't have given the Steelers a 5th for Holmes?

eddie mac
04-12-2010, 12:19 AM
Rumoured that Leon Washington is included in this deal. Could be he has to sign his tender first before it's official.

I suppose we'll see but that would even it out a bit more.

Popps
04-12-2010, 12:37 AM
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes
Marshall > Holmes

Maybe so, but if you think this trade didn't hurt our cause... you're fooling yourself.

We can keep clicking our heels and hoping for a high first round pick, but I'm starting to doubt the reality of it more and more.

Popps
04-12-2010, 12:38 AM
I bet 30 other teams are feeling a little confused right now. Who wouldn't have given the Steelers a 5th for Holmes?

Yea, I can't imagine this was the best offer... but I'm assuming this is official?

Or?

BroncoBuff
04-12-2010, 01:03 AM
The Rooneys are color blind

Most color-blind ownership in the league.

Not just the Rooney Rule, but also the considerable Obama support. Obama named Rooney ambassador to Ireland.

Drek
04-12-2010, 03:37 AM
I guess...but worst case scenario he is gone for 2010, but they still have a (then) 27 year old super bowl mvp WR in 2011 for a 5th round pick.

They don't just reinstate guys because they've served their suspension. They need to convince Goodell that they will now behave.

Santonio Holmes has been arrested three times for various infractions where the charges where dropped. Then last off-season he's arrested for Marijuana possession, after which he supposedly failed a league drug test, and as recent as about a week ago he was posting on his twitter account about wake n' baking.

Holmes is getting a suspension in 2010. It might be really damn severe. And if his stoner ass can't get clean and stay clean for an entire year of not playing football he won't be back.

Hell, there isn't a guarantee that there will even be football in 2011. You let him effectively sit out two years and he might as well just retire because he will not be the same player.

meangene
04-12-2010, 04:20 AM
Rumoured that Leon Washington is included in this deal. Could be he has to sign his tender first before it's official.

I suppose we'll see but that would even it out a bit more.

This makes way more sense. Washington and a 5th for Holmes with his off-field issues is more reasonable.

WolfpackGuy
04-12-2010, 05:45 AM
I knew they were pissed, but I didn't think the Steelers would move him.

CEH
04-12-2010, 06:05 AM
Jets WR Santonio Holmes will be suspended the first four games, a league source said. So Jets will be without Holmes for opener and beyond

- Adam Shefter

no-pseudo-fan
04-12-2010, 06:29 AM
So the price was low because Santonio will be out the first 4 games? Still a great deal for the Jets. How long would it take a 5th round rookie to be ready to contribute?

s0phr0syne
04-12-2010, 07:57 AM
Yes, because we all know that smoking weed is a much greater crime than allegedly sexually assaulting 2 girls. And crashing a motorcycle while not wearing a helmet.

This move is a joke, and it makes me respect McD and Bowlen more for their hardline stance with Cutler--something I've been more than critical of in the past.

bronco militia
04-12-2010, 08:09 AM
Most color-blind ownership in the league.

Not just the Rooney Rule, but also the considerable Obama support. Obama named Rooney ambassador to Ireland.

the rooney rule is racist...par for the course for the politicaly correct racist's

JMO

gyldenlove
04-12-2010, 08:17 AM
Yes, because we all know that smoking weed is a much greater crime than allegedly sexually assaulting 2 girls. And crashing a motorcycle while not wearing a helmet.

This move is a joke, and it makes me respect McD and Bowlen more for their hardline stance with Cutler--something I've been more than critical of in the past.

Add to that Holmes has twice assaulted women, including the mother of his children and only appears to have gotten away with the last one because he paid some stooge to take the rap. Dude is a world of trouble.

eddie mac
04-12-2010, 08:27 AM
Jets WR Santonio Holmes will be suspended the first four games, a league source said. So Jets will be without Holmes for opener and beyond

- Adam Shefter

4 weeks minimum. Goodell hasn't decided yet plus the fact Holmes was involved in another police related incident since.

s0phr0syne
04-12-2010, 08:31 AM
Add to that Holmes has twice assaulted women, including the mother of his children and only appears to have gotten away with the last one because he paid some stooge to take the rap. Dude is a world of trouble.

Didn't know about Holmes's other assaults. The latest one sounds pretty questionable, but if he has a history with it, then more probable that it did actually occur.

azbroncfan
04-12-2010, 08:41 AM
Most color-blind ownership in the league.

Not just the Rooney Rule, but also the considerable Obama support. Obama named Rooney ambassador to Ireland.

Rooney Rule is BS. Since when are business owners required to interview by race to determine who will run there million dollar business. What about where a white caucasion is the minority in the city are they required to interview a white candidate?

Tombstone RJ
04-12-2010, 08:54 AM
It's pretty clear from the trade that the stellers just wanted to be rid of Holmes. They'll draft his replacement soon enough.

As for big Ben, I doubt Goodell looks the other way.

TonyR
04-12-2010, 08:54 AM
Smart move by the Steelers, just move on. Cancers like Holmes drag you down, Pittsburgh knows what they're doing.

Yup, one of the best run organizations in the league. And we've got dopes here crying about the Broncos not paying Brandon Marshall and considering moving him for a 1st round pick.

Rabb
04-12-2010, 08:54 AM
Rooney Rule is BS. Since when are business owners required to interview by race to determine who will run there million dollar business. What about where a white caucasion is the minority in the city are they required to interview a white candidate?

not to mention, the Rooney rule has made people basically make a mockery of the rule

you will get blatantly obvious token interviews now which is just stupid

if I was a man of color, that would bother me most

baja
04-12-2010, 08:58 AM
The rule itself is racist

Hogan11
04-12-2010, 09:07 AM
Fans overvalue WR's.....the WR stock has pretty much nosedived over the past year or so. A 5th for Holmes pretty much confirms that notion.

baja
04-12-2010, 09:11 AM
Fans overvalue WR's.....the WR stock has pretty much nosedived over the past year or so. A 5th for Holmes pretty much confirms that notion.

show me a WR trade that does not involve a troubled WR than maybe you might be able to make a case that the position is being devalued

When you sample base is Marshall & Holmes all you can be sure of is threat of suspension matters when it comes to assessing value.

Tombstone RJ
04-12-2010, 09:13 AM
Fans overvalue WR's.....the WR stock has pretty much nosedived over the past year or so. A 5th for Holmes pretty much confirms that notion.

This trade has little to no bearing on the Broncos/Marshall situation. Pittsburgh just wanted to be rid of Holmes and the jets got a good player who is now going to miss at least 4 games.

Hogan11
04-12-2010, 09:22 AM
show me a WR trade that does not involve a troubled WR than maybe you might be able to make a case that the position is being devalued

When you sample base is Marshall & Holmes all you can be sure of is threat of suspension matters when it comes to assessing value.

It's a diva position, asking for a trade that doesn't involve a troubled WR is a pretty tall order....guy's are being given away for practically nothing as a result and you don't find the position as being devalued?

TheReverend
04-12-2010, 09:23 AM
show me a WR trade that does not involve a troubled WR than maybe you might be able to make a case that the position is being devalued

When you sample base is Marshall & Holmes all you can be sure of is threat of suspension matters when it comes to assessing value.

There's nothing troubling about Boldin. High character team first player.

Beantown Bronco
04-12-2010, 09:24 AM
guy's are being given away for practically nothing as a result and you don't find the position as being devalued?

I personally don't place that high a value on the position in the grand scheme of things, but some teams still do.

The Roy Williams trade is still fresh in my mind.

baja
04-12-2010, 09:46 AM
There's nothing troubling about Boldin. High character team first player.

He's a few months short of 30 but still a 3 rd & 4th seems like a bargain for a receiver of his quality so maybe Hogan has a point but with the rules changing to benefit the O I would think a quality receiver would be more in demand not less.

Then there is the Roy Williams trade.

montrose
04-12-2010, 09:51 AM
Yup, one of the best run organizations in the league. And we've got dopes here crying about the Broncos not paying Brandon Marshall and considering moving him for a 1st round pick.

I think it highlights that, because in many ways the stark contrast between the Broncos past and current regime, how strongly some feel in the talent vs. team argument. Because the Broncos were ran (with great success early, mediocrity later) in many ways by trying to accumulate the most talent possible - sometimes regardless of chemistry or character - I think many long-time Broncos fans have learned to believe in that philosophy.

From just browsing aroung and spending time on boards and reading Facebook posts of fans whose teams have subscribed to opposite philosophy (Steelers, Patriots), it's amazing how different the reaction is. I think it's in large part, again, to what each fanbase has grown accustom to. I've noticed that many fans of those other teams aren't as attached to individual players as we are here - they view their teams as teams that will cycle guys in and out. In talking with some good buddies that are fans of these teams, they are amazed how attached we (Broncos fans) are to "star players" on our team.

Think about it, you could build a group of big-names from guys those teams have lost over the past ten years (Holmes, Porter, Parker, Foote, Randel El, Faneca, Law, Vrabel, Seymour, Branch, Milloy, Cassell, Vinateri, etc.) yet their fan base hasn't lost a bit of belief. Now contrast that to the reaction we had as Broncos fans when Shanny let go of guys like Pryce, Sharpe, Wilson, Atwater, Lynch, Romo, Gold (the 1st time), Berry, etc.) - it was quite a bit different because, IMO, we had learned that our team was to be built around talent instead of finding talent that fit our team. I'm not saying one way is right and the other wrong, but it's very interesting to note how fans that have followed a team of a given philosophy believe in it themselves. And that makes transitioning a fan base from one side to the other even more intriguing.

baja
04-12-2010, 09:55 AM
I think it highlights that, because in many ways the stark contrast between the Broncos past and current regime, how strongly some feel in the talent vs. team argument. Because the Broncos were ran (with great success early, mediocrity later) in many ways by trying to accumulate the most talent possible - sometimes regardless of chemistry or character - I think many long-time Broncos fans have learned to believe in that philosophy.

From just browsing aroung and spending time on boards and reading Facebook posts of fans whose teams have subscribed to opposite philosophy (Steelers, Patriots), it's amazing how different the reaction is. I think it's in large part, again, to what each fanbase has grown accustom to. I've noticed that many fans of those other teams aren't as attached to individual players as we are here - they view their teams as teams that will cycle guys in and out. In talking with some good buddies that are fans of these teams, they are amazed how attached we (Broncos fans) are to "star players" on our team.

<b>Think about it, you could build a group of big-names from guys those teams have lost over the past ten years (Holmes, Porter, Parker, Foote, Randel El, Faneca, Law, Vrabel, Seymour, Branch, Milloy, Cassell, Vinateri, etc.) yet their fan base hasn't lost a bit of belief. Now contrast that to the reaction we had as Broncos fans when Shanny let go of guys like Pryce, Sharpe, Wilson, Atwater, Lynch, Romo, Gold (the 1st time), Berry, etc.) - it was quite a bit different because, IMO, we had learned that our team was to be built around talent instead of finding talent that fit our team. I'm not saying one way is right and the other wrong, but it's very interesting to note how fans that have followed a team of a given philosophy believe in it themselves. And that makes transitioning a fan base from one side to the other even more intriguing.

Ask Snyder and Jones how that philosophy has worked out for their teams.

montrose
04-12-2010, 10:31 AM
Ask Snyder and Jones how that philosophy has worked out for their teams.

Well I wasn't trying to debate the effectiveness of either method but rather discuss how fans react to each. In regards to the philosophy, while the Redskins and Cowboys have been unsuccessfull as of late, the Broncos and Cowboys won multiple Super Bowls employing this formula back in the 90s so it has worked.

gunns
04-12-2010, 10:34 AM
Fans overvalue WR's.....the WR stock has pretty much nosedived over the past year or so. A 5th for Holmes pretty much confirms that notion.

BINGO! :thumbsup:

baja
04-12-2010, 10:44 AM
Well I wasn't trying to debate the effectiveness of either method but rather discuss how fans react to each. In regards to the philosophy, while the Redskins and Cowboys have been unsuccessfull as of late, the Broncos and Cowboys won multiple Super Bowls employing this formula back in the 90s so it has worked.

Ya I know I wasn't busting your balls. As for the Broncos employing that system during their SB winning years I disagree we had mainly quality team guys. Who were the "me first" guys that helped Denver win SBs?

montrose
04-12-2010, 11:14 AM
Ya I know I wasn't busting your balls. As for the Broncos employing that system during their SB winning years I disagree we had mainly quality team guys. Who were the "me first" guys that helped Denver win SBs?

I wasn't referring to guys being me-first actually, while that does apply sometimes to that philosophy, it was more along the lines of building a team by getting great talent and sculpting the team to that talent as opposed to building a team that finds players fitting a certain mold and cycling them out. You could argue that's why the Broncos and Cowboys saw big dips after their SB runs as those players left or retired while the Steelers and Patriots have remained extremely competitive for the better part of a decade while losing player after player.

Tombstone RJ
04-12-2010, 11:23 AM
I wasn't referring to guys being me-first actually, while that does apply sometimes to that philosophy, it was more along the lines of building a team by getting great talent and sculpting the team to that talent as opposed to building a team that finds players fitting a certain mold and cycling them out. You could argue that's why the Broncos and Cowboys saw big dips after their SB runs as those players left or retired while the Steelers and Patriots have remained extremely competitive for the better part of a decade while losing player after player.

Much of that is drafting the right players and bringing in the right FAs. Shanny just thought he was smarter than everyone else and his GM skills killed the Broncos. When you miss on your drafts and your FA acquisitions as much as Shanny did, its tough to stay competitive.

WolfpackGuy
04-12-2010, 11:27 AM
Much of that is drafting the right players and bringing in the right FAs. Shanny just thought he was smarter than everyone else and his GM skills killed the Broncos. When you miss on your drafts and your FA acquisitions as much as Shanny did, its tough to stay competitive.

On this, we agree.

It's amazing the team stayed marginally competitive for years with the talent it had.

It's also just as amazing that Shanahan stuck himself with those same players.

baja
04-12-2010, 11:31 AM
I wasn't referring to guys being me-first actually, while that does apply sometimes to that philosophy, it was more along the lines of building a team by getting great talent and sculpting the team to that talent as opposed to building a team that finds players fitting a certain mold and cycling them out. You could argue that's why the Broncos and Cowboys saw big dips after their SB runs as those players left or retired while the Steelers and Patriots have remained extremely competitive for the better part of a decade while losing player after player.

Oh I see you point. Which way do you prefer? I like the team first with plug and play guys but you still need talent.

Doggcow
04-12-2010, 11:38 AM
Ya I know I wasn't busting your balls. As for the Broncos employing that system during their SB winning years I disagree we had mainly quality team guys. Who were the "me first" guys that helped Denver win SBs?

Elway. All he cared about was winning a SB before he retired. He even made Bowlen say that it was his superbowl!

baja
04-12-2010, 11:46 AM
Elway. All he cared about was winning a SB before he retired. He even made Bowlen say that it was his superbowl!

He should thank TD than.

Fusionfrontman
04-12-2010, 12:20 PM
Think about it, you could build a group of big-names from guys those teams have lost over the past ten years (Holmes, Porter, Parker, Foote, Randel El, Faneca, Law, Vrabel, Seymour, Branch, Milloy, Cassell, Vinateri, etc.) yet their fan base hasn't lost a bit of belief. Now contrast that to the reaction we had as Broncos fans when Shanny let go of guys like Pryce, Sharpe, Wilson, Atwater, Lynch, Romo, Gold (the 1st time), Berry, etc.) - it was quite a bit different because, IMO, we had learned that our team was to be built around talent instead of finding talent that fit our team. I'm not saying one way is right and the other wrong, but it's very interesting to note how fans that have followed a team of a given philosophy believe in it themselves. And that makes transitioning a fan base from one side to the other even more intriguing.

You hit it on the head. To me, this makes a lot of sense. The ironic part of this is, aside from Atwater (who was not in his prime) and Wilson (who was hurt), and Sharpe, who did we lose who went on to have 3-4 huge years on another team? Patriots and Steelers let go of guys who were the best of their position )Vinateri, Law, Porter.

Yes, it is debatable, BUT I really do see your point and have always been a fan of how NE and PITT have always run their teams about the TEAM.

UberBroncoMan
04-12-2010, 12:48 PM
The Rooneys are color blind

A rule that FORCES teams to interview "minority" coaches rather than giving teams the freewill to go after who they damn well want doesn't come off as color blind. Rather, color obsessed. Forcing the acknowledgment and continued division of the human race is in itself racist and keeps humanity from actually unifying.

UberBroncoMan
04-12-2010, 12:51 PM
He should thank TD than.

Ironically, many hall voters have reversed it and say TD should thank Elway for the Super Bowl wins. After all, Elway made TD right? :(

Just another ploy to keep a Bronco out of the HoF.

oubronco
04-12-2010, 05:02 PM
They were going to cut him if noone traded for him he must really be a ****up

gunns
04-12-2010, 05:19 PM
He should thank TD than.

They should all thank each other, which is why the statement of Elway being a me first guy is BS.... Howard Griffith, Rod Smith, Eddy Mac, Zim, Atwater, TD, Elway, etc. etc. etc. They all needed each others greatness.

BroncoBuff
04-12-2010, 05:20 PM
They should all thank each other, which is why the statement of Elway being a me first guy is BS.... Howard Griffith, Rod Smith, Eddy Mac, Zim, Atwater, TD, Elway, etc. etc. etc. They all needed each others greatness.

Add Tony Jones and Tom Nalen and Shannon Sharpe.

You see that list and you realize ... if that's what it takes to win a Lombardi, we're a long way away.

gunns
04-12-2010, 05:32 PM
Add Tony Jones and Tom Nalen and Shannon Sharpe.

You see that list and you realize ... if that's what it takes to win a Lombardi, we're a long way away.

I did. The etc, etc, etc. And there were more. It's a team effort no matter what. 86, 87, 89 proved that just as much. As great as Elway was he had to have a team. In those years it was more "me only" than "me first" for the guy.

Jesterhole
04-12-2010, 05:37 PM
How did the Jets score this deal? No way that was the highest offer...