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Boobs McGee
03-26-2010, 06:36 PM
So, recently bought a 120hz 46" Samsung LCD. LOVE it.

The problem though, is that there is enough lag to make a noticeable difference when I'm playing FPS games (i have a ps3) like Modern Warfare. For the rest of my games, it really doesn't make a difference.

After checking through some websites, I came up with a few solutions that reduced the lag, but there is STILL enough to make it frustrating. It's ever so slight, but it's there.

HDMI cables is where I'm asking for your help today, oh guru's of the flat screen. Came across this website http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#112 which helped clear up a few questions, but here's what I'm wondering. After discovering that there ARE in fact different classes of HDMI cables, is it possible that by buying a more expensive 1.3 version, it would eliminate the rest of the lag? Has anyone tried this with any kind of luck?

Here's the part of the website that piqued my curiousity " What’s new in the HDMI 1.3 Specification?
•Higher speed: Although all previous versions of HDMI have had more than enough bandwidth to support all current HDTV formats, including full, uncompressed 1080p signals, HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future HD display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds.
•Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.
•Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 adds support for “x.v.Color™” (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color viewable by the human eye.
•New mini connector: With small portable devices such as HD camcorders and still cameras demanding seamless connectivity to HDTVs, HDMI 1.3 offers a new, smaller form factor connector option.
•Lip Sync: Because consumer electronics devices are using increasingly complex digital signal processing to enhance the clarity and detail of the content, synchronization of video and audio in user devices has become a greater challenge and could potentially require complex end-user adjustments. HDMI 1.3 incorporates automatic audio synching capabilities that allows devices to perform this synchronization automatically with total accuracy.
•New HD lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMI’s current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS®), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™."

Basically, I love my t.v., but would love it even more IF I could reduce the lag a bit more.

SO. Anybody have thoughts or suggestions? Would a "newer" hdmi cable possibly solve the problem?

For clarifications sake it's a Samsung LN46C630.

I thought a 4ms refresh rate would be sufficient, but apparently I was wrong.

So far, to get the lag down, I've renamed the hdmi input to PC, turned on game mode, and turned off the BD wise. This was the best solution I've found thus far.

DenverBound
03-26-2010, 06:40 PM
The best cable out there is rated at 10.2 GB. As long as your cable is rated at that speed you should not have any problem.

side note. Your getting lag because your playing on PS's ****ty servers. Get an xbox.

Harvitz81
03-26-2010, 07:01 PM
monoprice.com don't pay more than $5 for an HDMI cable

ant1999e
03-26-2010, 07:05 PM
I agree with denverbound. Get an XBox 360. You get what you pay for.

MaloCS
03-26-2010, 07:07 PM
Your lag is generated by either the servers, your connection or the game system hardware. It's not a cable issue.

Archer81
03-26-2010, 07:09 PM
I agree with denverbound. Get an XBox 360. You get what you pay for.


Red ring of death. Yup.

He said he had issues with lag with one game, not all of them. So clearly its not the quality of sony's servers.


:Broncos:

Boobs McGee
03-26-2010, 07:15 PM
lets not bring system battles into this...dont really feel like debating the playstations superiority right now :) seriously though, its not a server issue. the lag occurs in campaign mode just the same. AND , my buddy's red ring of death ridden console has the same problems on my t.v.

i just wonder if that 10.2 gig cable will make a difference? are you using one currently?

Los Broncos
03-26-2010, 07:23 PM
monoprice.com don't pay more than $5 for an HDMI cable

This

Archer81
03-26-2010, 07:25 PM
This


Most expensive HDMI cable I've ever bought was 14.99. It was at Walmart and was at 2am. We use it now for the HD in the living room.


:Broncos:

Dr. Broncenstein
03-26-2010, 07:33 PM
I came here to laugh at anyone suggesting that Monster cable is the way to go. Leaving disappointed.

Jekyll15Hyde
03-26-2010, 07:50 PM
Your Samsung should have a "game mode" to help exactly with this.

HILife
03-26-2010, 07:54 PM
I came here to laugh at anyone suggesting that Monster cable is the way to go. Leaving disappointed.

Monster is the way to go!

http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/no_monster_cable.jpg

HILife
03-26-2010, 07:56 PM
Red ring of death. Yup.

He said he had issues with lag with one game, not all of them. So clearly its not the quality of sony's servers.


:Broncos:

Microsoft is making a TON of money off of people who bought the first gen 360 (like me) had it Red Ring (like me) and then bought the latest gen of 360 (like me).

Archer81
03-26-2010, 08:01 PM
Microsoft is making a TON of money off of people who bought the first gen 360 (like me) had it Red Ring (like me) and then bought the latest gen of 360 (like me).


Not to mention the 360 Live fee you pay. I like the 360, and if I get one it would be for the Fable series. But I find it hard to shell out $300 for a system. have it burn out, send it back. Have that one burn out, get a new one, and on top of it all pay $15 for access to their servers, on top of what I pay for broadband service already.


:Broncos:

Los Broncos
03-26-2010, 08:10 PM
Most expensive HDMI cable I've ever bought was 14.99. It was at Walmart and was at 2am. We use it now for the HD in the living room.


:Broncos:

Bought two for twenty bucks when I got my new TV.

Don't need anything more than that.

ak1971
03-26-2010, 10:06 PM
alt.nerd.obsessive

Drek
03-27-2010, 02:49 AM
lets not bring system battles into this...dont really feel like debating the playstations superiority right now :) seriously though, its not a server issue. the lag occurs in campaign mode just the same. AND , my buddy's red ring of death ridden console has the same problems on my t.v.

i just wonder if that 10.2 gig cable will make a difference? are you using one currently?

It'll help, a little.

But ultimately you got an LCD TV and this is one of the big downsides of LCD vs. Plasma. It'll be worse on games like Modern Warfare that render at goofy nonstandard resolutions to maintain a high frame rate, and FPS games will be your biggest offender (that and really fast racing games like WipeOut).

Jesterhole
03-27-2010, 04:09 AM
As a game developer, I have to echo the 'get an xbox' comments. It isn't that the xbox is a better machine. In fact, in many ways it is worse.

The reality though is that unless a game is a PS3 exclusive, an xbox version of the game will always be better than the PS3 version. Every studio develops their games and gets them running and working on xbox first. It is by far the friendlier system to make games for, due to memory and tools support.

The PS3 version of the game sits on the back burner until the end of the project, and you have to start making sacrifices like lower texture resolution or fewer enemy AI in order to get it to run sometimes. It can get nasty.

So, always get the xbox version if you can.

Drek
03-27-2010, 04:27 AM
As a game developer, I have to echo the 'get an xbox' comments. It isn't that the xbox is a better machine. In fact, in many ways it is worse.

The reality though is that unless a game is a PS3 exclusive, an xbox version of the game will always be better than the PS3 version. Every studio develops their games and gets them running and working on xbox first. It is by far the friendlier system to make games for, due to memory and tools support.

The PS3 version of the game sits on the back burner until the end of the project, and you have to start making sacrifices like lower texture resolution or fewer enemy AI in order to get it to run sometimes. It can get nasty.

So, always get the xbox version if you can.
1. He'd have the exact same problem with the 360, so what the hell is the relevance of that take?

This isn't a frame rate issue on the PS3. The CoD:MW/MW2 engine isn't exactly a world beater and both systems handle it just fine. Its a problem with him getting an LCD and trying to play fast twitch games on them. Its latency from his set, nothing more.

2. Yes, many devs over the last few years have done a mediocre job with multi-plat development, primarily the ones who rely on middleware to carry the load for them. But that is becoming a less and less accurate statement with every quarter. In fact, we're now starting to see some games that are better on the PS3 than the 360 at release, and many of the ones that do have a significant performance divide are patched soon after release.

Even still, the differences are often minimal. Hardly a reason to choose which system you buy. Things like overall system features, exclusives, network, etc. are far more important things than knowing your game has slightly better lighting versus slightly better textures or some other little thing that 90% of the gaming public couldn't notice without having it explicitly pointed out to them.

Boobs McGee
03-27-2010, 04:40 AM
It'll help, a little.

But ultimately you got an LCD TV and this is one of the big downsides of LCD vs. Plasma. It'll be worse on games like Modern Warfare that render at goofy nonstandard resolutions to maintain a high frame rate, and FPS games will be your biggest offender (that and really fast racing games like WipeOut).

This is what I was ultimately afraid of.

The odd thing is, my buddy's 42" LCD from insignia has, like, zero lag, but it cost about $500 less, and is only a 60hz haha. I just ASSUMED when I bought this t.v., and now I'm paying for it.

Thanks for the info though...have you heard anything about using the HDMI to VGA cable? Something about using the actual PC input to "fool" the t.v.?

Drek
03-27-2010, 06:15 AM
This is what I was ultimately afraid of.

The odd thing is, my buddy's 42" LCD from insignia has, like, zero lag, but it cost about $500 less, and is only a 60hz haha. I just ASSUMED when I bought this t.v., and now I'm paying for it.

Thanks for the info though...have you heard anything about using the HDMI to VGA cable? Something about using the actual PC input to "fool" the t.v.?

Nothing is going to "fool" your TV. Its simply a matter of refresh latency. The TV can't "redraw" the image fast enough.

Optimizing the transfer rate from the system will help some, but that likely isn't your bottleneck. The whole 60hz/120hz thing with LCDs isn't a very big deal either, its a marginal improvement but it doesn't change the fact that LCDs will always have some latency.

I'd be willing to bet that the reason you didn't notice it on your friend's Insignia is that the TV just doesn't look as nice and so it was less obvious to you.

Keep tweaking your video settings, you'll likely find something that makes it very tolerable. Game mode will obviously be an essential part of that, but double check everything to make sure that 1. game mode is enabled and 2. it isn't a half assed game mode that leaves some of the intensive features still running. Check to make sure you've got all the non-essential features turned off.

Are you running your sound through your TV to a sound system? If so you might want to consider a direct link from the PS3 as well. Some sets will just treat incoming sound as a pass through, but some will try to convert from one format to another, some do either one depending on how you set it up.

Most importantly, calibrate your set well with something like Avia or Digital Video Essentials. A well calibrated set will handle the stresses of fast refreshing source better (not to mention look better). Never trust a factory calibration, they're almost always complete junk with a contrast/brightness pairing that will be a big contributor in the early death of your TV.

Also, for how cheap a HDMI 1.3 cable is off monoprice, you should get one. It likely won't be a game changer, but you're going to be looking for every bit of help to make this as optimized as possible.

yerner
03-27-2010, 07:05 AM
Wow, I didn't know this was going on. Not sure I really understand it. If I were to buy a new tv how would I avoid it? Or is that a stupid question?

Mediator12
03-27-2010, 08:01 AM
Wow, I didn't know this was going on. Not sure I really understand it. If I were to buy a new tv how would I avoid it? Or is that a stupid question?

Buy a plasma if you like Gaming and Sports :welcome:

I just bought the new generation of Plasma's from Samsung and I am shocked people would buy anything else for Sports or gaming. I got a 58" plasma for 1400 that is simply incredible and I can watch game film on. My old 50 is still really nice, but the 58" is simply incredible.

Seriously, plasma is so much cheaper, has become more energy efficient, the glare issues are almost gone, and I can watch it in bright light (NOT direct light) with little wash. I have no idea why people would want to pay the premium for LED/LCD big screens ???

Beantown Bronco
03-27-2010, 08:02 AM
It's amazing how many people don't understand the concept of variables.

His tv, cables and PS3 system work perfectly for 99% of the games he owns. He has problems with one game.

What is the ONE variable that has changed?

Mediator12
03-27-2010, 08:07 AM
It's amazing how many people don't understand the concept of variables.

His tv, cables and PS3 system work perfectly for 99% of the games he owns. He has problems with one game.

What is the ONE variable that has changed?

If it were only that simple. The game was explained earlier by drek. It requires a higher "refresh Latency" than his TV can display versus other games. That problem will only get worse with new games that are created to do more and more.....

If his TV struggles with a game that will be obsolete very soon, how is it going to do down the road with the next games?

Boobs McGee
03-27-2010, 08:18 AM
I understand the concept of latency to a degree, which is why I was asking about the cables. As some people have now pointed out, the only time the lag is noticeable is when I'm playing "fast twitch" games.

Drek, the reason I asked about the VGA cable, was that I read on another forum that THAT connection would somehow reduce the latency as it was a different type of connection (from what I gathered, the display would be somewhere in the 720 range, but it would allow the t.v. to refresh at a different rate).

I've tried tweaking the video settings, but I'll definitely look a little more in depth, make sure I have the true motion off etc etc. I assumed (there's that damn word again ha) that the game mode would automatically adjust, but I'll give it a shot.

I'm actually going to get to try out the new 10.2 gig cables today...my buddy just bought an LED tv and the guy sold him some 2 meter monster cables...SO, I'll report back my findings to the group.

Another thing, as far as the factory settings go, I've messed around with some of the contrast and brightness settings (per some websites online), but I haven't tried a calibration disk yet. Are they really worth the money? Or could I find the proper calibrations online?

Beantown Bronco
03-27-2010, 09:26 AM
If it were only that simple. The game was explained earlier by drek. It requires a higher "refresh Latency" than his TV can display versus other games. That problem will only get worse with new games that are created to do more and more.....

If his TV struggles with a game that will be obsolete very soon, how is it going to do down the road with the next games?

This explanation would work if the original poster confirmed that this one game that doesn't work is the only "newer technology" game in his library. Some are assuming this to be the case, but I have yet to see that confirmation. If he has other new games with this higher refresh requirement and they work fine, then the tv is clearly not to blame.

Boobs McGee
03-27-2010, 10:17 AM
This explanation would work if the original poster confirmed that this one game that doesn't work is the only "newer technology" game in his library. Some are assuming this to be the case, but I have yet to see that confirmation. If he has other new games with this higher refresh requirement and they work fine, then the tv is clearly not to blame.

I don't know exactly where to look on the game itself to find out what their refresh rate requirements are...BUT the new God of War plays just fine.

And by just fine, I mean the lag isn't really noticeable like it is for the fps games.

here's a bit of clarification...the other games in my library don't require NEARLY the precise reaction that Modern Warfare 2 does, and that's why I just kind of discounted them. All of the other games have very very minimal amounts of lag, but because of their nature, it isn't magnified like it is with MW2.

TD30
03-27-2010, 10:17 AM
monoprice.com don't pay more than $5 for an HDMI cable

they have great prices...nice switches too

Drek
03-27-2010, 01:39 PM
It's amazing how many people don't understand the concept of variables.

His tv, cables and PS3 system work perfectly for 99% of the games he owns. He has problems with one game.

What is the ONE variable that has changed?

"there is enough lag to make a noticeable difference when I'm playing FPS games (i have a ps3) like Modern Warfare."

Multiple games, but he gave just one example.

The reason he's seeing problems with MW/MW2 is that they display at 60 fps (more refresh work for the TV, 30 fps is standard) and they render at a non-standard resolution (below 720p). The resolution is remedied by the system's output but it does give the TV a disadvantage over a game running in true native 720/1080p. The 60 fps is whats really getting him the worst though. Just so few games are truly 60 fps now that its not something he'd notice a ton of.

OP: Have you tried Street Fighter IV? I'd be willing to bet that it would have some lag on you as well.

I understand the concept of latency to a degree, which is why I was asking about the cables. As some people have now pointed out, the only time the lag is noticeable is when I'm playing "fast twitch" games.

Drek, the reason I asked about the VGA cable, was that I read on another forum that THAT connection would somehow reduce the latency as it was a different type of connection (from what I gathered, the display would be somewhere in the 720 range, but it would allow the t.v. to refresh at a different rate).
That might help, but I can't imagine it would be any different from just setting your TV to take a 720p image anyways.

What resolution does MW2 play at on your TV? Most of the time when you fire the game up somewhere on the screen the resolution will be displayed. On my Kuro its in the upper right hand corner.

MW and MW2 are not 1080p native games. They will not provide a 1080p signal and the PS3 will not upscale this on its own. If the TV is being forced to upscale a 720p output to 1080p because you've got it set to force 1080p then that would be a big source of latency.

But a special adapter isn't going to be needed for this on most newer sets. I can't believe Samsung would put out an LCD that forces 1080p. For ideal picture quality you want everything (other than SD satellite/cable programming) displaying at their native resolutions. Upscaling is largely useless (in my opinion) if you're already starting with a good HD source. Preserving bit rate, per pixel color accuracy, etc. are far more important and poor upscalers (not Samsung's of course) will muddy the waters on those fronts.

I've tried tweaking the video settings, but I'll definitely look a little more in depth, make sure I have the true motion off etc etc. I assumed (there's that damn word again ha) that the game mode would automatically adjust, but I'll give it a shot.
It should but don't assume if you're still seeing problems. Make sure you've given it a thorough double check before betting on it.

I'm actually going to get to try out the new 10.2 gig cables today...my buddy just bought an LED tv and the guy sold him some 2 meter monster cables...SO, I'll report back my findings to the group.
Never do what your buddy did, FYI. Not only is the difference between a decent generic cable and monster cables incredibly minor on analog cabling, it is flat out non-existent on digital. The signal gets to the output in full or it doesn't get there at all. Besides, Monoprice's cables generally perform better than Monster's as well. The only way you'd ever consider one of the "high end" cables is if you have a pet who likes to chew through cords and you find a steel braided option.

Another thing, as far as the factory settings go, I've messed around with some of the contrast and brightness settings (per some websites online), but I haven't tried a calibration disk yet. Are they really worth the money? Or could I find the proper calibrations online?
You could probably find an ok set of calibration settings online somewhere, but it won't be truly customized to your room. A calibration disk will give you picture quality tailored to the lighting, background, etc. in your own room.

They're generally pretty cheap and if your view on the "sharing" of digital media is flexible very easy to find for free all around the web. It makes a pretty big difference. Don't be surprised if at first you don't care for the new calibrations, it'll require you to drop contrast and brightness significantly from factory settings. But after you get used to it you'll begin to notice much richer colors, better color detail, better blacks, etc.. The things that really make a high end TV, not how many lumens it beams into your eyes while trying to enjoy a movie.

Drek
03-27-2010, 01:44 PM
Buy a plasma if you like Gaming and Sports :welcome:

I just bought the new generation of Plasma's from Samsung and I am shocked people would buy anything else for Sports or gaming. I got a 58" plasma for 1400 that is simply incredible and I can watch game film on. My old 50 is still really nice, but the 58" is simply incredible.

Seriously, plasma is so much cheaper, has become more energy efficient, the glare issues are almost gone, and I can watch it in bright light (NOT direct light) with little wash. I have no idea why people would want to pay the premium for LED/LCD big screens ???

Be careful with that bad boy, Samsung is delivering a good picture with their new plasmas but they're far and away the easiest to cause burn in/IR on. Its still not as easy as they used to be, but it does require some special attention.

Baby it for the first 200+ hours, run some HDTV break in disks through it with regularity, and keep a white bar pattern handy (TV should have one in the settings) for use after everything that has a long term static image on the screen. My number one tip though, shut the TV off when you aren't actually watching it. Get up to use the can? Shut it off. Go to the kitchen for a few minutes to grab a snack? Shut it off. Burn in is only aided when the set as a whole begins to run hot after hours of consecutive viewing. A few minutes of down time here and there will help.