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View Full Version : OT: Salt Ban in NY


UberBroncoMan
03-11-2010, 03:01 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/03/11/2010-03-11_assault_on_salt_an_insult_chefs.html

Some crazy **** politician in New York named Felix Ortiz wants to ban the use of salt for cooking in all New York restaurants with a penalty of a $1,000 fine for each infraction.

This is some crazy as **** **** here. Talk about big brother.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 03:03 PM
That's dumb, but i wouldnt mind seeing sodium levels on the menus next to the calorie content.

Garcia Bronco
03-11-2010, 03:05 PM
That's dumb, but i wouldnt mind seeing sodium levels on the menus next to the calorie content.

It'd be a lie anyway.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 03:06 PM
It'd be a lie anyway.

not necessarily. If they are lying about calorie content, its still high enough to keep me away from previous dishes i thought to be innocuous.

OOJack
03-11-2010, 03:10 PM
salty motherf*&kers

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Democrats yet again putting taxpayer money to good purposes.

KS Bronco
03-11-2010, 03:21 PM
not surprised, salt is ONE of the leading contributors to our number one killer: heart disease.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-11-2010, 03:21 PM
The government knows what's best for you, citizen.

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 03:26 PM
not surprised, salt is ONE of the leading contributors to our number one killer: heart disease.


Taking my salt away is fairly high as a health risk. ;D

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 03:28 PM
I can see a roving gang of salt police walking in and out of eating establishments interrupting dinners to check for salt usage.:rofl:

Dr. Broncenstein
03-11-2010, 03:29 PM
not surprised, salt is ONE of the leading contributors to our number one killer: heart disease.

Oh for ****'s sake.

Smoking, diabetes, obesity, obstructive sleep apnea, dyslipidemia, and genetics. Solve these problems first. Reducing sodium intake to prevent heart disease is like pissing in the ocean to try and turn it yellow.

Kaylore
03-11-2010, 03:31 PM
Yeah actually sodium is one of the few minerals you can (and usually do) take excessive amounts of and be ok. There is some link to hypertension but its hard to nail sodium specifically because usually if someone has a really high sodium diet all the other stuff they are eating is worse (high in fats, low in vitamins and minerals, empty carbs, etc,)

Gort
03-11-2010, 03:36 PM
Oh for ****'s sake.

Smoking, diabetes, obesity, obstructive sleep apnea, dyslipidemia, and genetics. Solve these problems first. Reducing sodium intake to prevent heart disease is like pissing in the ocean to try and turn it yellow.

clearly you haven't seen Al Gore's latest movie, "An Inconvenient Toilet".

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 03:37 PM
Baaaaaa-zing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 03:43 PM
http://www.dreamstime.com/police-officer-with-siren-thumb6492662.jpg

Unit 43! Unit 43! possible salt usage on 5th and washington approach with caution! subject is armed with a buritto .

Tombstone RJ
03-11-2010, 03:48 PM
This thread has all sorts of potential...

DBroncos4life
03-11-2010, 03:48 PM
If New York really wants to save people they should do away with the Knicks.

bpc
03-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Ah, the brilliance of Barry Obama and his brigade of regulatory czars. Soon he's going to be telling you when to wake up, where to go, how long to do, and who will be smacking your wife on the ass that night.

Bottom line is if you don't like this bull****, you hate government interference, prove it with the upcoming elections. It's time to put these politicians back under us and have them working to govern the system, not mandating the people's rights and what they do with their liberties.

Broncomutt
03-11-2010, 03:58 PM
When I think of the great restaurants in New York, this makes me laugh. Then I think of my per diem and the ****holes I'm usually reduced to eating in.:gimme:

"Jones, did you notice while cooking...that these eggs were off?"

"I thought the salt might cover the taste, sir."

bombay
03-11-2010, 03:59 PM
I like hooters.

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 04:03 PM
http://www.informationliberation.com/files/nypd_video.jpg

That was not pepper asshole!!

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 04:06 PM
http://img.skitch.com/20090818-tghiqukj1pg2udeuyq3q9xbksr.jpg

Derryl jenkins after being caught using salt and crushed red pepper in his chili.

Tombstone RJ
03-11-2010, 04:11 PM
Talk about putting the restuarants in NY under financial stress. The taste of the food will suffer, the cost to produce the product will increase, which will be passed on to the consumer. Less people will eat out, which means less revenue for the restaurants and less tax revenue from the restaurant industry. Yep, brilliant idea!

Hogan11
03-11-2010, 04:19 PM
It's a proposal by a nutjob and there's no way it'll pass.

Much ado about nothing.

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 04:27 PM
It's a proposal by a nutjob and there's no way it'll pass.

Much ado about nothing.

But time and money is being wasted dealing with it.

Rohirrim
03-11-2010, 04:29 PM
It's a proposal by a nutjob and there's no way it'll pass.

Much ado about nothing.

Didn't you read bpc's post? It's just another sign of the much broader Obama conspiracy. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that McDaniels is also mixed up in this, somehow.

Hogan11
03-11-2010, 04:31 PM
But time and money is being wasted dealing with it.

Welcome to Albany, it's business as usual.....nothing to see here

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 04:31 PM
Ah, the brilliance of Barry Obama and his brigade of regulatory czars. Soon he's going to be telling you when to wake up, where to go, how long to do, and who will be smacking your wife on the ass that night.

Bottom line is if you don't like this bull****, you hate government interference, prove it with the upcoming elections. It's time to put these politicians back under us and have them working to govern the system, not mandating the people's rights and what they do with their liberties.

You are insane. What does this have to do with Obama? What does this have to do with ANYTHING other than some local politician spouting BS? Christ, you act like your rights have been taken away when NONE OF THIS HAS HAPPENED. No one is coming for your guns, all you've received actually (unless you make more than i think you do) is lower taxes. Christ, the discourse in this country has absolutely sickened me.

Hogan11
03-11-2010, 04:33 PM
Didn't you read bpc's post? It's just another sign of the much broader Obama conspiracy. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that McDaniels is also mixed up in this, somehow.

It's the onset of the Safetyocracy!

TailgateNut
03-11-2010, 04:39 PM
Didn't you read bpc's post? It's just another sign of the much broader Obama conspiracy. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that McDaniels is also mixed up in this, somehow.


Did he magically start making sense?

UberBroncoMan
03-11-2010, 04:40 PM
You are insane. What does this have to do with Obama? What does this have to do with ANYTHING other than some local politician spouting BS? Christ, you act like your rights have been taken away when NONE OF THIS HAS HAPPENED. No one is coming for your guns, all you've received actually (unless you make more than i think you do) is lower taxes. Christ, the discourse in this country has absolutely sickened me.

The point behind this is with forcing socialized health care, what's to stop politicians from forcing Americans to eat food that will potentially lower the overall cost of health care.

As for lower taxes it's just an illusion. Taxes have been raised on so many other things that it negates any break that lower income individuals have received. For instance the electricity bill has gone up 50% where I live with Obama in office.

Big government needs hordes of money and it can't just take it from the rich and expect to stay afloat very long without completely ****ing up the entire country by destroying growth the private sector... which as of late has been the case. There has been practically no growth in the private sector under Obama. The "jobs" being made are basically all related to the government, which isn't how this country is supposed to be.

Do I think they'll take away our guns etc? Probably not, but if they could they would. Just look at their voting history.

TailgateNut
03-11-2010, 04:42 PM
The point behind this is with forcing socialized health care, what's to stop politicians from forcing Americans to eat food that will potentially lower the overall cost of health care.

As for lower taxes it's just an illusion. Taxes have been raised on so many other things that it negates any break that lower income individuals have received. For instance the electricity bill has gone up 50% where I live with Obama.

Big government needs hordes of money and it can't just take it from the rich and expect to stay afloat very long without completely ****ing up the entire country by destroying growth the private sector... which as of late has been the case. There has been practically no growth in the private sector under Obama. The "jobs" being made are basically all related to the government, which isn't how this country is supposed to be.


:spit:

UberBroncoMan
03-11-2010, 04:43 PM
:spit:

Truth is funny?

tsiguy96
03-11-2010, 04:46 PM
You are insane. What does this have to do with Obama? What does this have to do with ANYTHING other than some local politician spouting BS? Christ, you act like your rights have been taken away when NONE OF THIS HAS HAPPENED. No one is coming for your guns, all you've received actually (unless you make more than i think you do) is lower taxes. Christ, the discourse in this country has absolutely sickened me.

the biggest problem is when people think taht one side is totally wrong, and the other side is 100% right about everything. people just cant seem to realize that in most cases, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

worm
03-11-2010, 04:49 PM
the biggest problem is when people think taht one side is totally wrong, and the other side is 100% right about everything. people just cant seem to realize that in most cases, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

rofl.

worm
03-11-2010, 04:50 PM
Oooh, baby, baby
Baby, baby
Oooh, baby, baby
Baby, baby

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 04:51 PM
I think rastaman would make a perfect salt cop.

Hogan11
03-11-2010, 04:52 PM
Massa said he used "salty" language in his current debacle...maybe this is in response to that?

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 05:02 PM
The point behind this is with forcing socialized health care, what's to stop politicians from forcing Americans to eat food that will potentially lower the overall cost of health care.

As for lower taxes it's just an illusion. Taxes have been raised on so many other things that it negates any break that lower income individuals have received. For instance the electricity bill has gone up 50% where I live with Obama in office.

Big government needs hordes of money and it can't just take it from the rich and expect to stay afloat very long without completely ****ing up the entire country by destroying growth the private sector... which as of late has been the case. There has been practically no growth in the private sector under Obama. The "jobs" being made are basically all related to the government, which isn't how this country is supposed to be.

Do I think they'll take away our guns etc? Probably not, but if they could they would. Just look at their voting history.

Please read the healthcare proposal and tell me how under any circumstances its government run. Please, tell me, i dare you.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 05:03 PM
The point behind this is with forcing socialized health care, what's to stop politicians from forcing Americans to eat food that will potentially lower the overall cost of health care.

As for lower taxes it's just an illusion. Taxes have been raised on so many other things that it negates any break that lower income individuals have received. For instance the electricity bill has gone up 50% where I live with Obama in office.

Big government needs hordes of money and it can't just take it from the rich and expect to stay afloat very long without completely ****ing up the entire country by destroying growth the private sector... which as of late has been the case. There has been practically no growth in the private sector under Obama. The "jobs" being made are basically all related to the government, which isn't how this country is supposed to be.

Do I think they'll take away our guns etc? Probably not, but if they could they would. Just look at their voting history.

And, honestly, youre ignoring basic economic theory about what happens in extreme financial crisis.

UberBroncoMan
03-11-2010, 05:13 PM
/facepalm - arguing with a dude who's publicly announced he's a socialist isn't something that's going to lead anywhere.

TailgateNut
03-11-2010, 05:38 PM
Truth is funny?

When twisted it can be.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 05:48 PM
/facepalm - arguing with a dude who's publicly announced he's a socialist isn't something that's going to lead anywhere.

haha this is true. Which is why i can confidentely tell you that this current healthcare plan is no where near a single payer. In fact, the exchanges are only open to like 10 million people (at first) and there's not even a public, government run INSURANCE option in the plan. The only government run health insurance we have is Medicare and Medicaid (incredibly popular i might add) and the veterans have NHS style care. All this info about the government having control over the private industry simply isn't true. Even lefties like Kucinich think its a giveaway to the insurance industry since it'll require an individual mandate. I dont really agree with that and think it should be passed and improved upon throughout time. The CBO claims this will shrink the deficit and control run away costs. if you choose not to believe that, thats fine, but our current system will leave the country insolvent.

gunns
03-11-2010, 05:54 PM
Ah, the brilliance of Barry Obama and his brigade of regulatory czars. Soon he's going to be telling you when to wake up, where to go, how long to do, and who will be smacking your wife on the ass that night.

Bottom line is if you don't like this bull****, you hate government interference, prove it with the upcoming elections. It's time to put these politicians back under us and have them working to govern the system, not mandating the people's rights and what they do with their liberties.

Then don't vote Democratic or Republican.

I do not add salt to any of my food. I try to eat low sodium and have always had low blood pressure......until 3 months ago. And it was quite high. Stress is a bigger contributor. I'm wondering if the government could possibly outlaw stress.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 06:00 PM
Then don't vote Democratic or Republican.

I do not add salt to any of my food. I try to eat low sodium and have always had low blood pressure......until 3 months ago. And it was quite high. Stress is a bigger contributor. I'm wondering if the government could possibly outlaw stress.

I like that! A stress outlaw bill. I wonder if that would receive bipartisan support.

gunns
03-11-2010, 06:02 PM
Didn't you read bpc's post? It's just another sign of the much broader Obama conspiracy. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that McDaniels is also mixed up in this, somehow.


OMG, not Obama! Not McDaniels! We're DOOOOMED!

BTW, what's going on with Doom?

oubronco
03-11-2010, 06:07 PM
salty motherf*&kers

Hilarious!

Rock Chalk
03-11-2010, 06:31 PM
Taking my salt away is fairly high as a health risk. ;D

IN a stupid thread with stupid comments from stupid people about a stupid bill, this was brilliant.

Archer81
03-11-2010, 06:36 PM
Please read the healthcare proposal and tell me how under any circumstances its government run. Please, tell me, i dare you.


Thats ingenious, considering no consolidated healthcare bill exists yet. But they are going to vote on it anyway.


:Broncos:

Archer81
03-11-2010, 06:39 PM
Salt = the devil. Next it will be red meat...or maybe pork. Can't have so much meat out there. We should all eat skinless, boneless organic chicken boiled in ass water.


:Broncos:

loborugger
03-11-2010, 06:40 PM
The tyranny of the do gooders strikes again...

And while its one nutjob proposing something that has almost no chance to pass this time, **** like this has a way of gaining momentum like a snowball rolling down hill.

broncosteven
03-11-2010, 06:49 PM
the biggest problem is when people think taht one side is totally wrong, and the other side is 100% right about everything. people just cant seem to realize that in most cases, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe your vacation did do some good after all. Welcome to 2010.

snowspot66
03-11-2010, 06:50 PM
not necessarily. If they are lying about calorie content, its still high enough to keep me away from previous dishes i thought to be innocuous.

They are lying. But maybe not intentionally. They only have to have it within a certain %. If you add 10 to 20% on food you get at a restaurant or fast food place then you have a safe estimate.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-11-2010, 07:00 PM
This is nothing more than another means of capturing revenue. "For the public good, to lower the cost of healthcare." What a bunch of absolute bullshiat. You want the government to trample on your freedom for "the public good, to lower the cost of healthcare" then start with this:

1. Make cigarettes illegal and require negative nicotene tests mandatory for any sort of government assistance / heatlh insurance / employment.

2. Treat obesity as aggressively as cancer. Pay a penalty/tax or lose government assistance for a BMI over 30 that isn't under medical / surgical care. Take children into protective custody if they are allowed to become obese.

3. Make obtaining a drivers license as difficult as obtaining a concealed weapons permit. Mandatory retesting every 5 years until the age of seventy, for every moving violation, and yearly after the age of seventy. Probationary permit age begins at age 18, and is revoked for any moving violation. No more than one passenger in the car with a learner's permit.

4. Parental skills testing and licensing required before birth. Children of unlicensed parents are placed into foster care until licensed. Mandatory re-testing every five years.

5. Mandatory 60 minutes daily physical education from K through 12.

I could keep going... but you get the point. Regulating sodium is about the most arbitrary thing possible, and will not save one life or lower the cost of healthcare in the slightest. It might make a couple of bucks for the local government, until the targeted establishments decide to take their business and tax revenue somewhere less retarded.

Mogulseeker
03-11-2010, 07:06 PM
I like how people have made this a Democrat-Republican issue. It's not.

Mogulseeker
03-11-2010, 07:07 PM
This is nothing more than another means of capturing revenue. "For the public good, to lower the cost of healthcare." What a bunch of absolute bullshiat. You want the government to trample on your freedom for "the public good, to lower the cost of healthcare" then start with this:

1. Make cigarettes illegal and require negative nicotene tests mandatory for any sort of government assistance / heatlh insurance / employment.

2. Treat obesity as aggressively as cancer. Pay a penalty/tax or lose government assistance for a BMI over 30 that isn't under medical / surgical care. Take children into protective custody if they are allowed to become obese.

3. Make obtaining a drivers license as difficult as obtaining a concealed weapons permit. Mandatory retesting every 5 years until the age of seventy, for every moving violation, and yearly after the age of seventy. Probationary permit age begins at age 18, and is revoked for any moving violation. No more than one passenger in the car with a learner's permit.

4. Parental skills testing and licensing required before birth. Children of unlicensed parents are placed into foster care until licensed. Mandatory re-testing every five years.

5. Mandatory 60 minutes daily physical education from K through 12.

I could keep going... but you get the point. Regulating sodium is about the most arbitrary thing possible, and will not save one life or lower the cost of healthcare in the slightest. It might make a couple of bucks for the local government, until the targeted establishments decide to take their business and tax revenue somewhere less retarded.

This

DarkHorse30
03-11-2010, 07:11 PM
clearly you haven't seen Al Gore's latest movie, "An Inconvenient Toilet".




word

Dedhed
03-11-2010, 07:14 PM
But time and money is being wasted dealing with it.

Yeah, let's start a riot every time congress wastes time and money arguing over pointless drivel.

Better yet, let's post every turdball proposal that politicians put out there on the mane so we can wade through them while trying to talk football.

loborugger
03-11-2010, 07:18 PM
This is nothing more than another means of capturing revenue. "For the public good, to lower the cost of healthcare." What a bunch of absolute bullshiat. You want the government to trample on your freedom for "the public good, to lower the cost of healthcare" then start with this:

1. Make cigarettes illegal and require negative nicotene tests mandatory for any sort of government assistance / heatlh insurance / employment.

2. Treat obesity as aggressively as cancer. Pay a penalty/tax or lose government assistance for a BMI over 30 that isn't under medical / surgical care. Take children into protective custody if they are allowed to become obese.

3. Make obtaining a drivers license as difficult as obtaining a concealed weapons permit. Mandatory retesting every 5 years until the age of seventy, for every moving violation, and yearly after the age of seventy. Probationary permit age begins at age 18, and is revoked for any moving violation. No more than one passenger in the car with a learner's permit.

4. Parental skills testing and licensing required before birth. Children of unlicensed parents are placed into foster care until licensed. Mandatory re-testing every five years.

5. Mandatory 60 minutes daily physical education from K through 12.

I could keep going... but you get the point. Regulating sodium is about the most arbitrary thing possible, and will not save one life or lower the cost of healthcare in the slightest. It might make a couple of bucks for the local government, until the targeted establishments decide to take their business and tax revenue somewhere less retarded.

Rep... except for the BMI part. Its badly skewed towards pencil necked geeks who can run marathons and cant bench press 1/4 of their body weight.
According to the BMI, Tom Brady is a gordo. Same with Urlacher.

DarkHorse30
03-11-2010, 07:20 PM
haha this is true. Which is why i can confidentely tell you that this current healthcare plan is no where near a single payer. In fact, the exchanges are only open to like 10 million people (at first) and there's not even a public, government run INSURANCE option in the plan. The only government run health insurance we have is Medicare and Medicaid (incredibly popular i might add) and the veterans have NHS style care. All this info about the government having control over the private industry simply isn't true. Even lefties like Kucinich think its a giveaway to the insurance industry since it'll require an individual mandate. I dont really agree with that and think it should be passed and improved upon throughout time. The CBO claims this will shrink the deficit and control run away costs. if you choose not to believe that, thats fine, but our current system will leave the country insolvent.

No, this president will leave this country insolvent. Impeach his half-asian ass.

Mogulseeker
03-11-2010, 07:26 PM
Rep... except for the BMI part. Its badly skewed towards pencil necked geeks who can run marathons and cant bench press 1/4 of their body weight.
According to the BMI, Tom Brady is a gordo. Same with Urlacher.

BMI is such a terrible way of gauging health. When I was in the Navy, there was a guy I was stationed with who was about 6'3" 240. He lifted weights every day and smoked the physical readiness test (1.5 mile run, push-ups, sit-ups) - but still got put on FEP (the fat boy program) because his BMI was too high.

I actually support having a public option for health care, but I think it would be great if it required people to take a body fat test. Also, add in a drug test and deny coverage to smokers. That would keep costs way down.

UberBroncoMan
03-11-2010, 07:28 PM
No, this president will leave this country insolvent. Impeach his half-asian ass.

Asian? Are you referring to his time in Indonesia or thinking of Tiger Woods.

Archer81
03-11-2010, 07:30 PM
BMI is such a terrible way of gauging health. When I was in the Navy, there was a guy I was stationed with who was about 6'3" 240. He lifted weights every day and smoked the physical readiness test (1.5 mile run, push-ups, sit-ups) - but still got put on FEP (the fat boy program) because his BMI was too high.

I actually support having a public option for health care, but I think it would be great if it required people to take a body fat test. Also, add in a drug test and deny coverage to smokers. That would keep costs way down.


Denying smokers is technically the government doing what they claim the "evil" insurance companies do; deny coverage for pre existing conditions.

:Broncos:

Mogulseeker
03-11-2010, 07:32 PM
Smoking isn't a condition. Its a choice, and a stupid one.

Mogulseeker
03-11-2010, 07:33 PM
BTW - I wouldn't mind at least requiring restaurants to put the sodium content on the menu as well.

Archer81
03-11-2010, 07:34 PM
Smoking isn't a condition. Its a choice, and a stupid one.


So is eating salt or too much red meat or working in jobs with high incidence of job related disease. You can't single out a particular group if the over riding mantra is coverage for all.


:Broncos:

Archer81
03-11-2010, 07:35 PM
BTW - I wouldn't mind at least requiring restaurants to put the sodium content on the menu as well.


This I agree with. Banning salt outright is just goofy. Would probably help if we stopped using Iodized Salt...


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 07:52 PM
This I agree with. Banning salt outright is just goofy. Would probably help if we stopped using Iodized Salt...


:Broncos:

I know I'm not responding to the correct quote, but I'm not sure what you are talking about with no health bill. It exists and won't be done until they decide what needs to be done in rec, but the basics of the bill and most of the details are all set. Republican lawmakers keep complaining about it's exhaustive length. It's been scored numerous times by the CBO

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:02 PM
I know I'm not responding to the correct quote, but I'm not sure what you are talking about with no health bill. It exists and won't be done until they decide what needs to be done in rec, but the basics of the bill and most of the details are all set. Republican lawmakers keep complaining about it's exhaustive length. It's been scored numerous times by the CBO


They have the senate version, and the house version. Both have passed. The two bills need to be reconcilled. The argument is over the senate version, which goes further than the house version, should be adopted into law. As it stands now, it will not pass. Its not because of the GOP, either. Its a horrid bill.

As it stands, there is no consensus bill adopting key ideas from both the senate bill and house bill. It does not exist, and currently members of our esteemed congress are trying to figure out ways around the process to avoid a politically damaging vote.

:Broncos:

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 08:08 PM
They have the senate version, and the house version. Both have passed. The two bills need to be reconcilled. The argument is over the senate version, which goes further than the house version, should be adopted into law. As it stands now, it will not pass. Its not because of the GOP, either. Its a horrid bill.

As it stands, there is no consensus bill adopting key ideas from both the senate bill and house bill. It does not exist, and currently members of our esteemed congress are trying to figure out ways around the process to avoid a politically damaging vote.

:Broncos:


They are attempting to just change the rules..

link (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/House-Democrats-looking-at-Slaughter-Solution-to-pass-Obamacare-without-a-vote-on-Senate-bill-87267402.html)

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:11 PM
They have the senate version, and the house version. Both have passed. The two bills need to be reconcilled. The argument is over the senate version, which goes further than the house version, should be adopted into law. As it stands now, it will not pass. Its not because of the GOP, either. Its a horrid bill.

As it stands, there is no consensus bill adopting key ideas from both the senate bill and house bill. It does not exist, and currently members of our esteemed congress are trying to figure out ways around the process to avoid a politically damaging vote.

:Broncos:

Yeah, but the bills are quote similar. They differ in subsidy level and the excise tax. Obamas amendments will merge the two and the rest will be dealt with in reconciliation. It's not like one is single payer and the other is paul ryans idea. They are similar enough

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:14 PM
And reconciliation is hardly anything new. Republicans used it 14 of the last 19 times it was used, including both bush tax cuts, which helped get us in the current mess. There's nothing devious going on here. Nothing is being jammed through. This is majority rule. And before u quote the constitution, ain't nothing in there about a filibuster. Is the bill perfect? Hardly, but it's a step in the right direction

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 08:16 PM
And reconciliation is hardly anything new. Republicans used it 14 of the last 19 times it was used, including both bush tax cuts, which helped get us in the current mess. There's nothing devious going on here. Nothing is being jammed through. This is majority rule. And before u quote the constitution, ain't nothing in there about a filibuster. Is the bill perfect? Hardly, but it's a step in the right direction


Reconciliation has never been used on a bill of this magnitude.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:23 PM
Reconciliation has never been used on a bill of this magnitude.

Bush tax cuts cost the government more than this. And that was pushed through rec...twice. So try again.

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:26 PM
And reconciliation is hardly anything new. Republicans used it 14 of the last 19 times it was used, including both bush tax cuts, which helped get us in the current mess. There's nothing devious going on here. Nothing is being jammed through. This is majority rule. And before u quote the constitution, ain't nothing in there about a filibuster. Is the bill perfect? Hardly, but it's a step in the right direction


Republicans never had a 60 or 59 seat super majority while Bush was president. Interesting that it was ok for democrats to obstruct legislation between 2001-2007, but not OK for republicans to do the same now; especially on matters like healthcare coverage reform which will affect everybody.

Its also worrisome that democrats dont seem to think placing 1/6th of the US economy under government control should be something that requires a supermajority to pass. They will not control DC forever, and unpopular legislation can be overturned.

:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:27 PM
Also, reconciliation can only be used in regards to the budget. So they can't push the entire healthcare bill through it, only tweaks to the budget. Remember this passed senate with 60 votes and house the first time through. Nothing devious here

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:28 PM
Bush tax cuts cost the government more than this. And that was pushed through rec...twice. So try again.


No they didnt. Revenue not going to government and staying with the people who earn it does not = "costing" government anything.


:Broncos:

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:29 PM
Also, reconciliation can only be used in regards to the budget. So they can't push the entire healthcare bill through it, only tweaks to the budget. Remember this passed senate with 60 votes and house the first time through. Nothing devious here


Passed the senate by bribes...not for the "need" to get something done.


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:33 PM
Republicans never had a 60 or 59 seat super majority while Bush was president. Interesting that it was ok for democrats to obstruct legislation between 2001-2007, but not OK for republicans to do the same now; especially on matters like healthcare coverage reform which will affect everybody.

Its also worrisome that democrats dont seem to think placing 1/6th of the US economy under government control should be something that requires a supermajority to pass. They will not control DC forever, and unpopular legislation can be overturned.

:Broncos:

**** I wish I wasn't doing this from the gym on my iPhone. First off, the republicans have filibustered much more than democrats ever did. Look up that graph I've posted before. Also, the bill already was passed fair and square and if the house won't pass it again so be it. But reconciliation is just budget tweaks. The one sixth of the economy thing is a joke considering 90 percent of health insurance will remain untouched. This is a republican line that's misleading. There is zero public option, the government controls nothing except Medicare, Medicaid, and they will regulate the exchanges which is all private enterprise and only effects 10 million people. It also promotes competition! Repubs even like the wyden bennett plan which opens the exchanges to all. So in no way shape or form does it control one sixth of anything. If it was single payer, what I want, then sure. But it's not even close to single payer ( aside from Medicare of course). I hope there aren't tooamy spelling/syntax mistakes cuz I ain't goin back to check:)

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:34 PM
No they didnt. Revenue not going to government and staying with the people who earn it does not = "costing" government anything.


:Broncos:

What the heck do you think increased the defecit?

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:35 PM
Passed the senate by bribes...not for the "need" to get something done.


:Broncos:

Whatever, this is hearsay, but welcome to politics

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:37 PM
**** I wish I wasn't doing this from the gym on my iPhone. First off, the republicans have filibustered much more than democrats ever did. Look up that graph I've posted before. Also, the bill already was passed fair and square and if the house won't pass it again so be it. But reconciliation is just budget tweaks. The one sixth of the economy thing is a joke considering 90 percent of health insurance will remain untouched. This is a republican line that's misleading. There is zero public option, the government controls nothing except Medicare, Medicaid, and they will regulate the exchanges which is all private enterprise and only effects 10 million people. It also promotes competition! Repubs even like the wyden bennett plan which opens the exchanges to all. So in no way shape or form does it control one sixth of anything. If it was single payer, what I want, then sure. But it's not even close to single payer ( aside from Medicare of course). I hope there aren't tooamy spelling/syntax mistakes cuz I ain't goin back to check:)


Road to single payer hell is paved with good intentions. The amount of pork stuffed into the senate bill for 6 states was a bribe to get it passed. A reconcilled bill wont pass the house again, especially if it contains the senate bill's abortion language.

It is kind of sweet, how you trust government to do what they say.

:Broncos:

ant1999e
03-11-2010, 08:38 PM
Junk food tax

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_DietAndFitness/junk-food-tax-improve-health/story?id=10056236

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 08:40 PM
Road to single payer hell is paved with good intentions. The amount of pork stuffed into the senate bill for 6 states was a bribe to get it passed. A reconcilled bill wont pass the house again, especially if it contains the senate bill's abortion language.

It is kind of sweet, how you trust government to do what they say.

:Broncos:


Its official (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/ObamaCare-abortion-language-wont-be-changed-87383302.html)

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:41 PM
What the heck do you think increased the defecit?


Two wars. Yet even then it took nearly a decade to approach the deficits posted by Obama in a year. You know, because people had jobs and the economy was actually growing.

Democrats would find their lives would be alot easier if they paid more attention to jobs. If people are working and making their own money, they pay less attention to government.

:Broncos:

Archer81
03-11-2010, 08:43 PM
Junk food tax

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_DietAndFitness/junk-food-tax-improve-health/story?id=10056236


Carbonation tax, sugar consumption tax, mcdonalds tax. Luxury taxes...bool****.


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Road to single payer hell is paved with good intentions. The amount of pork stuffed into the senate bill for 6 states was a bribe to get it passed. A reconcilled bill wont pass the house again, especially if it contains the senate bill's abortion language.

It is kind of sweet, how you trust government to do what they say.

:Broncos:

First of all, don't belittle my beliefs. I respect your opinion and feel I've been patient. I actually the the abortion language will get settled because they are arguing the same point. Your right, the Ben Nelson bs was horrible, but Ben Nelson should never have had that much power to begin with ( by the way it's since been repealed). I personally hate what our political system has become, but bills get improved over time and I honestly believe this current bill, while wildly imperfect, lays the ground work for something good. The main thing preventing the good is politics.

And I'll disagree with u till the day I die about single payer. It probably can never happen here since insurance companies are so powerful but something like the French healthcare system Is probably acheiveble and good.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:46 PM
Two wars. Yet even then it took nearly a decade to approach the deficits posted by Obama in a year. You know, because people had jobs and the economy was actually growing.

Democrats would find their lives would be alot easier if they paid more attention to jobs. If people are working and making their own money, they pay less attention to government.

:Broncos:

Two wars, Medicare part d (a horrible bush bill) and the bush tax cuts made the defecit. That's a fact. Look it up. The stimulus, while not big enough, helped avoid catastrophy. Isn't this fact by now? Even the WSJ and Washington times, two right wing papers have told repubs to shut up about it because it makes em look like hypocrites. Cbo came out with a report about it's effects. Peep it

Bronx33
03-11-2010, 08:52 PM
avoided one catastrophy only to make it a worse catastrophy ( look it up) and welcome to the year 2010 we have a new president.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:57 PM
avoided one catastrophy only to make it a worse catastrophy ( look it up) and welcome to the year 2010 we have a new president.

Ummm we avoided depression and we have had bigger defecits (ww2). We def need to take care of it and healthcare will help. And we have to raise taxes. We can't pay for things with pixie dust. And enough with impeachment talk, it's a joke. Obama could have done much more with bank reform, but without stimulus, the UE rate is much higher. It was a last ditch effort once interst rates were zero. We ain't close to out of it, but it staved off disaster. God people are so angry they don't look at facts

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 08:59 PM
Phones outta battery though so I'm peacein out. Night y'all

Archer81
03-11-2010, 09:00 PM
First of all, don't belittle my beliefs. I respect your opinion and feel I've been patient. I actually the the abortion language will get settled because they are arguing the same point. Your right, the Ben Nelson bs was horrible, but Ben Nelson should never have had that much power to begin with ( by the way it's since been repealed). I personally hate what our political system has become, but bills get improved over time and I honestly believe this current bill, while wildly imperfect, lays the ground work for something good. The main thing preventing the good is politics.

And I'll disagree with u till the day I die about single payer. It probably can never happen here since insurance companies are so powerful but something like the French healthcare system Is probably acheiveble and good.


No belittling, its refreshing. Im 28 and jaded by government. They are actors and actresses, playing to the particular crowd they are speaking to. Party doesnt matter in that sense. What has happened is we have a government class in this country now that creates a set of rules for themselves and a set of rules for everyone else. They play with funny money and do things with debt and deficits that would land a normal person in jail.

Insurance companies are not evil. They operate with a 2% margin of profit.I also find it funny that some of the DNC's largest donors are healthcare insurance providers.

My issue with the single payer system is that is merely passes cost on from the insurance companies directly to tax payers. It will raise taxes on everyone who already pays taxes, and will eventually give the American people an inferior level of care. Making health care coverage mandatory is unconstitutional. My government cannot compell me to carry health care insurance. They cannot imprison or fine me for it.

:Broncos:

watermock
03-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Ummm we avoided depression and we have had bigger defecits (ww2). We def need to take care of it and healthcare will help. And we have to raise taxes. We can't pay for things with pixie dust. And enough with impeachment talk, it's a joke. Obama could have done much more with bank reform, but without stimulus, the UE rate is much higher. It was a last ditch effort once interst rates were zero. We ain't close to out of it, but it staved off disaster. God people are so angry they don't look at facts

Interest rates for the Oligarchs of the fed are still .075%.

What bank reform? Raing the limit on debt and freddie and fannie and letting the fractionally leveraged fed banks put 100 trillion into their portfolios?

The unemployment rate is 17%.

We only stavedoff destruction of the fed.

10 years ago, the fed owned 17% now they own 65%, and I guess we should own some of that, oh no!

Chris
03-11-2010, 10:14 PM
But time and money is being wasted dealing with it.

Congress is voting on the volume of commercials

Dedhed
03-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Yay, a political thread, Yay!

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2010, 10:26 PM
No belittling, its refreshing. Im 28 and jaded by government. They are actors and actresses, playing to the particular crowd they are speaking to. Party doesnt matter in that sense. What has happened is we have a government class in this country now that creates a set of rules for themselves and a set of rules for everyone else. They play with funny money and do things with debt and deficits that would land a normal person in jail.

Insurance companies are not evil. They operate with a 2% margin of profit.I also find it funny that some of the DNC's largest donors are healthcare insurance providers.

My issue with the single payer system is that is merely passes cost on from the insurance companies directly to tax payers. It will raise taxes on everyone who already pays taxes, and will eventually give the American people an inferior level of care. Making health care coverage mandatory is unconstitutional. My government cannot compell me to carry health care insurance. They cannot imprison or fine me for it.

:Broncos:

Fair enough, what we have here is just a difference in philosophy. Youre right, Single Payer would lead to higher taxes, which i personally do not have a problem with. But having said that, you would no longer have your employer pay for that and in other countries, the extra money has generally been kicked back to the employee (not to mention the copay and what not). Also, on the subject of level of care, again this is debatable. For millions of people, they don't even have access to care and millions more have bull**** healthcare plans that basically cover nothing. Under single payer, all these people would have health care and you cant be booted out of the system because of pre-existing conditions nor will an illness bankrupt you, which happens to many in this country. Also, there are ways to purchase supplemental insurance if youre worried about extra care and can afford such a thing. Is single payer perfect? No, there are some drawbacks, there are some longer lines for surgery that can be put off, that sort of thing, but lets not let perfect be the enemy of good here. It's also a much more effecient way of running healthcare in general. You have single payer systems all over the world and their mortality rates are equal to ours or better (now i know a lot plays into this, like general lifestyle, but its not like people in other countries are dropping like flies due to "poor healthcare systems.") You can hardly sit here and say what we have now is a good system. Its terrible and we pay entirely too much.

Also, i personally think its society's duty to help one another because its impossible to exist without one another. So thats a fundamental disagreement we have there and thats fine.

colonelbeef
03-11-2010, 11:25 PM
Ah, the brilliance of Barry Obama and his brigade of regulatory czars. Soon he's going to be telling you when to wake up, where to go, how long to do, and who will be smacking your wife on the ass that night.

Bottom line is if you don't like this bull****, you hate government interference, prove it with the upcoming elections. It's time to put these politicians back under us and have them working to govern the system, not mandating the people's rights and what they do with their liberties.

What does some moron (soon to be ex) state assemblyman have to do with Barack Obama exactly?

Please don't tell me you vote republican for civil liberties purposes. If so, I have some news for you.

~Crash~
03-11-2010, 11:31 PM
Democrats yet again putting taxpayer money to good purposes.

oh don't worry they will be going on there party soon enough on tax doe...with 10 or so black hawks following there train .........:thanku:

~Crash~
03-11-2010, 11:35 PM
All the wile they try and vote in $7 a gallon gas and doubling or tripling our electric bill !just there dragging of there feet 10 years ago is now killing us at the pump and electric bills already. there excuse back then well that would take ten year ... so tell me this it's be ten years and just what have they done to help Americans get thew the week and have a couple dallors for a beer . oh I know let,s making them pay $7 a gallon instead so we can send the money to 3rd world counties

~Crash~
03-11-2010, 11:49 PM
I cannot wait to vote this year . My dad and brother has not voted in 15 years and are voting and they are mad as hell . good luck Democrats you will need it

UberBroncoMan
03-11-2010, 11:58 PM
Also, i personally think its society's duty to help one another because its impossible to exist without one another. So thats a fundamental disagreement we have there and thats fine.

You put way, way, way too much faith into society and humanity in general. Helping the weak and leaches of society only breeds more of these type of people. Weak people want free ****.

It's these people that bring down society, and should be left to collect dust or rot, not bring everyone down with them.

Failure is a part of life, and it breeds success for those who are willing to learn from it.

A magical society where everything is fair, people are all taken care and in turn work hard and actually earn the true "sweat of their brow" so to speak of isn't a reality.

It's Star Trek fiction that will never exist because in the end of the day, it's corrupt and greedy politicians and leaders who are fighting each other to rule the masses in their own way. Some better than others.

You seem like someone that would have been all for Marx, Engels, and Lenin back in the Soviet Revolution with their promise of everyone working equally, jobs for all, and living fair, just lives. Hell it really seems nice and dandy in concept, but that's all it ever was... a concept. What Communism really represents has NEVER EVEN EXISTED, nor will it ever because those who rise to power end up becoming corrupted by it. It's even more of an inevitability (power corruption) in a government with little checks and balances, as seen right now. Man this reminds me of Animal Farm.

The vast majority of politicians don't really give a **** about society, they don't have your "noble intentions" as much as you may want to believe they do. They just want a way to control everyone and get their personal agendas passed. They've forgotten that they serve us, not the other way around... both parties have been guilty of this, especially in recent years.

For a great current example:This is evident by the massive opposition to the health care bill being completely ignored by Democratic Party members who's constituents have reached as high as 2 to 1 opposing it.

I don't give a **** about people and their radical or moderate beliefs, w/e they are. In this country you are elected to represent your constituents, not DICTATE them. If anyone thinks it is ok to ignore the will of the people, then they truly don't believe in a Republic nor what this nation was founded on.

All I've seen in Washington with this health care **** (regardless of if you want it or NOT) is a complete power trip that has ignored the will of the people... and don't anyone bring up the war. That was wildly favored going in, and received massive yes votes from both parties. Wars are not "easy" to get out of.

Sorry but the Democrats have gone bat **** insane with power, and the amount of corruption that has been involved trying to get this bill passed so far (again with a majority opposition by the people) is in direct opposition to what this country is all about.

This stupid salt **** is just a little tinkle on the power trip going through politician's heads.

Archer81
03-12-2010, 12:13 AM
Fair enough, what we have here is just a difference in philosophy. Youre right, Single Payer would lead to higher taxes, which i personally do not have a problem with. But having said that, you would no longer have your employer pay for that and in other countries, the extra money has generally been kicked back to the employee (not to mention the copay and what not). Also, on the subject of level of care, again this is debatable. For millions of people, they don't even have access to care and millions more have bull**** healthcare plans that basically cover nothing. Under single payer, all these people would have health care and you cant be booted out of the system because of pre-existing conditions nor will an illness bankrupt you, which happens to many in this country. Also, there are ways to purchase supplemental insurance if youre worried about extra care and can afford such a thing. Is single payer perfect? No, there are some drawbacks, there are some longer lines for surgery that can be put off, that sort of thing, but lets not let perfect be the enemy of good here. It's also a much more effecient way of running healthcare in general. You have single payer systems all over the world and their mortality rates are equal to ours or better (now i know a lot plays into this, like general lifestyle, but its not like people in other countries are dropping like flies due to "poor healthcare systems.") You can hardly sit here and say what we have now is a good system. Its terrible and we pay entirely too much.

Also, i personally think its society's duty to help one another because its impossible to exist without one another. So thats a fundamental disagreement we have there and thats fine.


The narrative has changed. Our healthcare system is fine. Our insurance system to pay for healthcare is not. The word efficiency and government do not go together. Its not "some waiting lines" for surgery or to see a doctor. Its government dictating to its people about their personal healthcare. Its a cookie cutter system being applied to something that can have 320 million unique characteristics. So the government then has two choices. It can tailor its single payer system to meet the unique demands of 320 million people, destroying itself economically or it can create a reactionary system designed as one size fits all. Governments always opt for the second option, which still raises costs while lowering the quality of care.

What does it tell you when individuals from nations with socialized care come to the US for surgeries they can get for free at home? They would prefer to spend the money to 1. get here and 2. pay for the surgery or whatever else they need. Its not surgeries that can be put off later, most of them come here because they need a transplant or a joint replacement or chemo treatments that they wont get back home because their government plan either denied it or they have too few specialists for what they need...and because they have to wait, it lowers their quality of life.

Our disagreement is on what is a greater instigator for positive change. An individual/private sector or a government. It is not the job of government to legislate morality or make mandatory things that should be common sense. When emotions are added to bills, horrible decisions are made. Im not blind to the problems of people who have gone bankrupt because of poor health coverage but I wont allow my sympathies to override what makes good fiscal sense and the financial strain we place on Americans that do not exist yet. Does it make more sense to cure the overhyped "ills" of society now at the cost of our future society's well being? To attach a moral imperitive to health care insurance when people are out of work is mystifying. Its nice. We can get partial healthcare coverage by 2013. That is only paid for through 2018...maybe. By then I will be living in a van down by the river and I have to share that van with a family of illegals from Guatemala and a cat...but at least I get partially funded healthcare. When I can possibly see a doctor.

My suggestions are this. Apply truely universal healthcare (medical, dental, vision) to children of American citizens from prebirth to HS/College graduation. This would actually encourage more parents to take their kids in, and would allow a greater chance for the kids to be taught healthier lifestyles. Adequately fund medicare and medicaid for seniors and people with disablities, while cracking down on fraud and waste in the system. For adults mid 20's to mid 60s, they buy their own insurance; which should be cheaper anyway simply because a lower incidence of chronic disease and in the case of younger adults requiring just catastrophic coverage. Removing limitations on interstate competition and TORT reform should bring these costs down further.

:Broncos:

watermock
03-12-2010, 12:17 AM
Every child shoud read "Animal Farm" and some Steinbeck.

UberBroncoMan
03-12-2010, 12:18 AM
My suggestions are this. Apply truely universal healthcare (medical, dental, vision) to children of American citizens from prebirth to HS/College graduation. This would actually encourage more parents to take their kids in, and would allow a greater chance for the kids to be taught healthier lifestyles. Adequately fund medicare and medicaid for seniors and people with disablities, while cracking down on fraud and waste in the system. For adults mid 20's to mid 60s, they buy their own insurance; which should be cheaper anyway simply because a lower incidence of chronic disease and in the case of younger adults requiring just catastrophic coverage. Removing limitations on interstate competition and TORT reform should bring these costs down further.

:Broncos:

There should still be a Public Option though... even for the kids. The strain would be lower though in that age group due to the overall quality health of it.

Archer81
03-12-2010, 12:18 AM
Every child shoud read "Animal Farm" and some Steinbeck.


Animal farm paints animals in a negative light. It also satirizes communism. We can't have that. I doubt kids even know who Steinbeck is.


:Broncos:

UberBroncoMan
03-12-2010, 12:25 AM
Animal farm paints animals in a negative light. It also satirizes communism. We can't have that. I doubt kids even know who Steinbeck is.

:Broncos:

Animal Farm is just a great example of corruption in general via rallying the masses to a cause and then taking the rug out from beneath them. I never really cared for the book as a kid, especially since I had to do a book report on it, but looking back I'm glad I read it. It really should be must-read stuff for schools... like that's going to happen in this day and age though.

Archer81
03-12-2010, 12:27 AM
Animal Farm is just a great example of corruption in general via rallying the masses to a cause and then taking the rug out from beneath them. I never really cared for the book as a kid, especially since I had to do a book report on it, but looking back I'm glad I read it.


I read it in 8th grade. This was a DoD school, so the curriculum was at least a year ahead of the kids off base. Also read Henry V and Grapes of Wrath. Now I doubt any of these are read simply because the material is "too hard".


:Broncos:

watermock
03-12-2010, 12:35 AM
No, it simply opens the door to intuition.

At least at it's base, elemental level.

Children are much more adaptable/knowing than adults.

We spend our lives trying to learn how to be children.

UberBroncoMan
03-12-2010, 12:40 AM
No, it simply opens the door to intuition.

At least at it's base, elemental level.

Children are much more adaptable/knowing than adults.

We spend our lives trying to learn how to be children.

Michael Jackson's motto right there.


... sorry, couldn't help it.

watermock
03-12-2010, 12:40 AM
Animal Farm is just a great example of corruption in general via rallying the masses to a cause and then taking the rug out from beneath them. I never really cared for the book as a kid, especially since I had to do a book report on it, but looking back I'm glad I read it. It really should be must-read stuff for schools... like that's going to happen in this day and age though.

If you don't like it, read Malthus.

Puts Gore in his place.

Vladimir
03-12-2010, 02:28 AM
This thread is cracking me up... I needed a good laugh.

Gort
03-12-2010, 04:27 AM
Animal Farm is just a great example of corruption in general via rallying the masses to a cause and then taking the rug out from beneath them. I never really cared for the book as a kid, especially since I had to do a book report on it, but looking back I'm glad I read it. It really should be must-read stuff for schools... like that's going to happen in this day and age though.

"Brave New World" and "Animal Farm" and even "Atlas Shrugged" are not books the NEA wants any children to know about, much less read. They prefer "Heather Has Two Mommies" and anything by Zinn/Chomsky to be on the curriculum. The undermining of the foundations of our once great nation started in the government schools.

bpc
03-12-2010, 04:56 AM
What does some moron (soon to be ex) state assemblyman have to do with Barack Obama exactly?

Please don't tell me you vote republican for civil liberties purposes. If so, I have some news for you.

Two peas in a pod buddy. They are of the same mentality in which the government should run the people's lives. You like being hearded around like sheep?

Hey, there are ****head politicians. Repubs and Democrats. At the same time, I will sit on the side of liberty and freedom every time even if I don't always condone the actions of my representitives.

TailgateNut
03-12-2010, 06:32 AM
oh don't worry they will be going on there party soon enough on tax doe...with 10 or so black hawks following there train .........:thanku:


Holy Crap, wtf are you attempting to say?

TailgateNut
03-12-2010, 06:34 AM
All the wile they try and vote in $7 a gallon gas and doubling or tripling our electric bill !just there dragging of there feet 10 years ago is now killing us at the pump and electric bills already. there excuse back then well that would take ten year ... so tell me this it's be ten years and just what have they done to help Americans get thew the week and have a couple dallors for a beer . oh I know let,s making them pay $7 a gallon instead so we can send the money to 3rd world counties

You should consider night classes in lieu of spending time on the mane.

DarkHorse30
03-12-2010, 07:22 AM
Asian? Are you referring to his time in Indonesia or thinking of Tiger Woods.

Difficult to remember what color/nationality a person is when you really don't care. The guy is bonkers and should be impeached. He's gonna trash this country with his lunacy.

However, the people behind Obama are just as corrupt/stupid. Biden is a lifer, and Pelosi is completely crazy. We are in deep doo doo with this crew.

TailgateNut
03-12-2010, 07:24 AM
Difficult to remember what color/nationality a person is when you really don't care. The guy is bonkers and should be impeached. He's gonna trash this country with his lunacy.

However, the people behind Obama are just as corrupt/stupid. Biden is a lifer, and Pelosi is completely crazy. We are in deep doo doo with this crew.


HAH! this coming from a Bush slurper is RICH!

bpc
03-12-2010, 07:57 AM
"Brave New World" and "Animal Farm" and even "Atlas Shrugged" are not books the NEA wants any children to know about, much less read. They prefer "Heather Has Two Mommies" and anything by Zinn/Chomsky to be on the curriculum. The undermining of the foundations of our once great nation started in the government schools.

ha ha, too true!

SonOfLe-loLang
03-12-2010, 08:28 AM
Ok, bunch of things to comment on. This is good

1) You Animal Farm lovers know Orwell was a Socialist, right?

Orwell on socialism from “Why I Joined the Independent Labour Party”:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I have got to struggle against that, just as I have got to struggle against castor oil, rubber truncheons and concentration camps. And the only regime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a Socialist regime. If Fascism triumphs I am finished as a writer — that is to say, finished in my only effective capacity. That of itself would be a sufficient reason for joining a Socialist party.<o:p></o:p>
I have put the personal aspect first, but obviously it is not the only one.<o:p></o:p>
It is not possible for any thinking person to live in such a society as our own without wanting to change it. For perhaps ten years past I have had some grasp of the real nature of capitalist society. I have seen British imperialism at work in Burma, and I have seen something of the effects of poverty and unemployment in Britain. In so far as I have struggle against the system, it has been mainly by writing books which I hoped would influence the reading public. I shall continue to do that, of course, but at a moment like the present writing books is not enough. The tempo of events is quickening; the dangers which once seemed a generation distant are staring us in the face. One has got to be actively a Socialist, not merely sympathetic to Socialism, or one plays into the hands of our always-active enemies.<o:p></o:p>

2) Yes, America has some great doctors and are the leaders in Cancer care and a few others, but youre making it seem like other countries have these tired old hospitals where nothing get done. Its simply not true. Its not as if the worlds health balance hinges on American doctors. While a complete single payer system probably can't work in america (due to its size, though having said that, im not sure any system will work for 300 mil) there are many hybrided systems in the world that cover everyone but also allow supplemental coverage if you can afford it. I'm sorry, but i think its absolutely deplorable that we are, without question by far, the richest country in the world, yet a pretty damn good percentage of our citizens cant get adequate care. People are denied BASIC CARE that can prevent problems down the line...and why? It's all in the name of greed. And i think thats disgusting. That's a moral argument with me.

Seriously, read up on the French Health Care system, Scandinavian ones, even Singapore (which is free market based with heavy heavy government regulations) Obviously, as someone who is a socialist democrat, i'm looking for the solution that best benefits all. We pay entirely too much for entirely too little and this needs to change.

3) As for the people who say i have too much trust in others and society, what ****ing choice do i have? What choice do you have? Did you build the computer youre reading this one? Did you grow your breakfast this morning? make your own clothes? Is there one action you did this entire week that you could have done without the help of someone else? We live together and are a incredibly connected web. To me, it makes sense to strengthen the whole as much as possible and quit trying just to take whats yours. Is that realistic? I dunno, maybe there are no answers, maybe humans are too faulted, but i hardly find that a reason to just throw it all away and quit. Without government, without law enforcement, we have anarchy. And we see how humans act without order.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-12-2010, 08:31 AM
Difficult to remember what color/nationality a person is when you really don't care. The guy is bonkers and should be impeached. He's gonna trash this country with his lunacy.

However, the people behind Obama are just as corrupt/stupid. Biden is a lifer, and Pelosi is completely crazy. We are in deep doo doo with this crew.

Even if you don't like Obama, and i can tell from your posts you know little about politics and political theory, the fact you think this current republican crew can do better is laughable. Have you seen their budget proposals? Have you seen their healthcare prosposals? they are jokes.

Paul Ryans proposed budget raised taxes on everyone EXCEPT the top one percent, who had theirs cut basically in half, and still didnt balance the budget. These are the people you want in charge.

I heard a great poll the other day. 98 percent of tea partiers, a cult, yes cult that was created to FIGHT TAXES, didnt realize that 95 percent of america has had their taxes lowered under obama. Yes, 98 percent of a movement named after a tax revolt didnt know current...tax rates. This is a ****ing joke.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-12-2010, 08:33 AM
"Brave New World" and "Animal Farm" and even "Atlas Shrugged" are not books the NEA wants any children to know about, much less read. They prefer "Heather Has Two Mommies" and anything by Zinn/Chomsky to be on the curriculum. The undermining of the foundations of our once great nation started in the government schools.

I think Atlas Shrugged was the only book that caused me to actually throw it against the wall in anger. I did finish it though, arent you proud of me?

UberBroncoMan
03-12-2010, 09:17 AM
Ok, bunch of things to comment on. This is good

1) You Animal Farm lovers know Orwell was a Socialist, right?

Orwell on socialism from “Why I Joined the Independent Labour Party”:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I have got to struggle against that, just as I have got to struggle against castor oil, rubber truncheons and concentration camps. And the only regime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a Socialist regime. If Fascism triumphs I am finished as a writer — that is to say, finished in my only effective capacity. That of itself would be a sufficient reason for joining a Socialist party.<o:p></o:p>
I have put the personal aspect first, but obviously it is not the only one.<o:p></o:p>
It is not possible for any thinking person to live in such a society as our own without wanting to change it. For perhaps ten years past I have had some grasp of the real nature of capitalist society. I have seen British imperialism at work in Burma, and I have seen something of the effects of poverty and unemployment in Britain. In so far as I have struggle against the system, it has been mainly by writing books which I hoped would influence the reading public. I shall continue to do that, of course, but at a moment like the present writing books is not enough. The tempo of events is quickening; the dangers which once seemed a generation distant are staring us in the face. One has got to be actively a Socialist, not merely sympathetic to Socialism, or one plays into the hands of our always-active enemies.<o:p></o:p>

2) Yes, America has some great doctors and are the leaders in Cancer care and a few others, but youre making it seem like other countries have these tired old hospitals where nothing get done. Its simply not true. Its not as if the worlds health balance hinges on American doctors. While a complete single payer system probably can't work in america (due to its size, though having said that, im not sure any system will work for 300 mil) there are many hybrided systems in the world that cover everyone but also allow supplemental coverage if you can afford it. I'm sorry, but i think its absolutely deplorable that we are, without question by far, the richest country in the world, yet a pretty damn good percentage of our citizens cant get adequate care. People are denied BASIC CARE that can prevent problems down the line...and why? It's all in the name of greed. And i think thats disgusting. That's a moral argument with me.

Seriously, read up on the French Health Care system, Scandinavian ones, even Singapore (which is free market based with heavy heavy government regulations) Obviously, as someone who is a socialist democrat, i'm looking for the solution that best benefits all. We pay entirely too much for entirely too little and this needs to change.

3) As for the people who say i have too much trust in others and society, what ****ing choice do i have? What choice do you have? Did you build the computer youre reading this one? Did you grow your breakfast this morning? make your own clothes? Is there one action you did this entire week that you could have done without the help of someone else? We live together and are a incredibly connected web. To me, it makes sense to strengthen the whole as much as possible and quit trying just to take whats yours. Is that realistic? I dunno, maybe there are no answers, maybe humans are too faulted, but i hardly find that a reason to just throw it all away and quit. Without government, without law enforcement, we have anarchy. And we see how humans act without order.

1. Animal Farm shows the Communist, the "Socialist" ideal starting pure and then through corruption turned into what we see through every Communist Nation (i.e. absolute authority over the people). It's more a dictatorship under the guise of true Communism etc. Orwell's socialism ideals are the same **** as Star Trek, a fantasy. Again, though the book shows how power corrupts people, and that the vast amount of people who get into power become spoiled by it.

2. It's not a damn good % of people that don't have health care... something like 15%. This whole "we're the richest" **** doesn't fly. That's just the propaganda talking points that I hear all the time about how we're such an evil and greedy country. We're so rich we're in an insane deficit that's only growing exponentially larger and the dollar is going to take an insane plunge in a while. All the while we refuse to drill for our own oil etc which would create 100k+ jobs. Yeah, let's pass a 1 trillion dollar health care bill (which when finalized will be filled with pork and other corrupt ****).

Have you ever had socialized medicine? Are you aware of the waiting lines? Yeah "basic" health care checkups will be taken care pretty easily, but the serious stuff isn't. Where's the outrage when people are on lists, or you're chosen to let die because you're more expensive than someone else. You think there's no greed or lack of morality with socialized medicine - laughable. I've lived in Europe, I have European friends, they ****ing hate it... and it's not the "young ones," it's the "older ones." The older you get the more socialized medicine says **** you. When you're young everything is dandy because you're healthy and you're a priority.

People bring up life expectancy, but frankly these small nations aren't as fat. They're more health conscious to begin with.

Also, a nation with 300+ million people and a constant excess of immigration is WAY ****ing different than these tiny European nations. Sweden has LESS PEOPLE than NEW YORK CITY. They also drill for their own oil.

3. My computer and cereal were made by hard working Americans (Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese). I agree with government to enforce a set of laws, but not laws that destroy the freedoms this country was founded upon. I don't see anyone here asking for Anarchy, just for the government not to dictate how we live in ways it was not meant to do so.

As for what choice do we have? We have one. It's called RESPONSIBILITY. Letting the weak and irresponsible leaches of society drag everyone down with them is nothing more than pity and fantasy dreams. Yes it would be great if we could all work in one happy human family, but it's not reality. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Humans are not ROBOTS. This is not a ****ing Hollywood movie where there is a happy ever after. You truly underestimate the evil, greed, power hungry individuals of the world. Your dreams, your wishes for humanity are not possible, and they will never happen because the vast majority of people who seek power in this world do so for self-gain and control, not the true and unselfish betterment of society. Maybe 1 - 2 max in a row will be, but in the end it all leads to corrupted leaders. It's been that way since the dawn of man and it will always be that way until we are dust.

I think you're probably a really nice dude in real life. I think you're likely a good person, and someone who would go out of their way to help old person cross a street. I think your intentions are good and you really want a better planet. You're someone I'd probably have a beer with. I completely understand your thought process, and I too think it would be AWESOME for the lowest members of society to step up and contribute. If the world truly function together for the betterment of humanity.

I'd LOVE to see a united and thriving human race. I want to see space exploration instead of wars. I want to see vast amounts of money going into technological research etc... though I find it ironic that the same people who want a united human race are obsessed with dividing it through stupid **** like celebrating skin color, gender etc.

Any how... I think you're completely naive to the realities of humanity. You do in fact put too much faith in humans, you come off like you think the Hollywood ending is a reality. It's not. In the end it's people like you who get stabbed in the back and wonder why it happened, even with your good intentions. It's people like you who assume the best that get destroyed. Just like the people on the top of the skyscraper in Independence Day.

"Humans are too faulted, but i hardly find that a reason to just throw it all away and quit."

You don't have to throw it all away and quit. You need to accept that not everyone wants to work hard, not everyone wants to be a positive contribution on society. We should not gift these people through the hard work of others. Humans ARE too faulted.

Again, you place too much faith in humanity and big government to somehow be less corrupt and power tripped than a smaller one that has their fingers in less facets of life.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-12-2010, 09:29 AM
1. Animal Farm shows the Communist, the "Socialist" ideal starting pure and then through corruption turned into what we see through every Communist Nation (i.e. absolute authority over the people). It's more a dictatorship under the guise of true Communism etc. Orwell's socialism ideals are the same **** as Star Trek, a fantasy. Again, though the book shows how power corrupts people, and that the vast amount of people who get into power become spoiled by it.

2. It's not a damn good % of people that don't have health care... something like 15%. This whole "we're the richest" **** doesn't fly. That's just the propaganda talking points that I hear all the time about how we're such an evil and greedy country. We're so rich we're in an insane deficit that's only growing exponentially larger and the dollar is going to take an insane plunge in a while. All the while we refuse to drill for our own oil etc which would create 100k+ jobs. Yeah, let's pass a 1 trillion dollar health care bill (which when finalized will be filled with pork and other corrupt ****).

Have you ever had socialized medicine? Are you aware of the waiting lines? Yeah "basic" health care checkups will be taken care pretty easily, but the serious stuff isn't. Where's the outrage when people are on lists, or you're chosen to let die because you're more expensive than someone else. You think there's no greed or lack of morality with socialized medicine - laughable. I've lived in Europe, I have European friends, they ****ing hate it... and it's not the "young ones," it's the "older ones." The older you get the more socialized medicine says **** you. When you're young everything is dandy because you're healthy and you're a priority.

People bring up life expectancy, but frankly these small nations aren't as fat. They're more health conscious to begin with.

Also, a nation with 300+ million people and a constant excess of immigration is WAY ****ing different than these tiny European nations. Sweden has LESS PEOPLE than NEW YORK CITY. They also drill for their own oil.

3. My computer and cereal were made by hard working Americans (Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese). I agree with government to enforce a set of laws, but not laws that destroy the freedoms this country was founded upon. I don't see anyone here asking for Anarchy, just for the government not to dictate how we live in ways it was not meant to do so.

As for what choice do we have? We have one. It's called RESPONSIBILITY. Letting the weak and irresponsible leaches of society drag everyone down with them is nothing more than pity and fantasy dreams. Yes it would be great if we could all work in one happy human family, but it's not reality. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Humans are not ROBOTS. This is not a ****ing Hollywood movie where there is a happy ever after. You truly underestimate the evil, greed, power hungry individuals of the world. Your dreams, your wishes for humanity are not possible, and they will never happen because the vast majority of people who seek power in this world do so for self-gain and control, not the true and unselfish betterment of society. Maybe 1 - 2 max in a row will be, but in the end it all leads to corrupted leaders. It's been that way since the dawn of man and it will always be that way until we are dust.

I think you're probably a really nice dude in real life. I think you're likely a good person, and someone who would go out of their way to help old person cross a street. I think your intentions are good and you really want a better planet. You're someone I'd probably have a beer with. I completely understand your thought process, and I too think it would be AWESOME for the lowest members of society to step up and contribute. If the world truly function together for the betterment of humanity.

I'd LOVE to see a united and thriving human race. I want to see space exploration instead of wars. I want to see vast amounts of money going into technological research etc.

However... I think you're completely naive to the realities of humanity. You do in fact put too much faith in humans, you come off like you think the Hollywood ending is a reality. It's not. In the end it's people like you who get stabbed in the back and wonder why it happened, even with your good intentions. It's people like you who assume the best that get destroyed. Just like the people on the top of the skyscraper in Independence Day.

"Humans are too faulted, but i hardly find that a reason to just throw it all away and quit."

You don't have to throw it all away and quit. You need to accept that not everyone wants to work hard, not everyone wants to be a positive contribution on society. We should not gift these people through the hard work of others. Humans ARE too faulted.

Again, you place too much faith in humanity and big government to somehow be less corrupt and power tripped than a smaller one that has their fingers in less facets of life.


Honestly, im tired of typing out novels to prove my points, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But, to me, 15 percent of people without healthcare is a travesty...not to mention the others with ****ty healthcare. I have a heart condition that could cause me to drop dead at any moment and if i ever lose my job, im completely ****ed. No insurance company would ever take me. So i'd gladly take my chances with a single payer in Europe. And yes, i know plenty of Euros who complain about healthcare and i know TONS of americans who complain about healthcare. There's no easy answer, but single payer is cheaper and covers more. Plain and simple.

And I'm not naive, we are having a conversation about ideals. I'm fully aware what works in a country of 4 million can't work in a country of 300 mil...and as i said, im not sure theres a correct way to government 300 mil. But there's a happy medium to be had here and people are under the impression that our healthcare system WORKS when all it will lead to is insolvency. This is a fact.

The government is not out to get you, its not out to oppress you, control you, and im sure your life under Obama has not changed one iota than it was under bush. The current healthcare plan, for all intents and purposes, doesn't change much. 260 million americans wont see change in their plans...at all (unless they full under the excise tax if that were to stand). All it does is aim to fix a severly broken free market system that effects something like 30 million americans. Whats wrong with that?

As said, im for single payer, but also know the healthcare lobby is too strong for a medicare for all to happen. And thats sad. Because its about Greed. All about money...and i know that won't change, but it doesnt mean i necessarily have to stand for it or just accept it.

And what freedoms has the government taken away? Are you claiming the individual mandate would be an obstruction of your freedom? Is it so ****ing horrible to pay some more in taxes so everyone, who didnt have the same opportunities or doesnt have the same mental capacity of you and me, can get basic healthcare? if thats infringing on your freedoms, then we'll never agree. We live in a society and regardless of what you think of smaller euro natiions and their size and whatnot...they at least have an understanding of community. Even if they all dont like it, theres a reason they dont fight it.

And healthcare reform, by the way, is not unpopular. The term is when its polled as just that (though new polls actually suggest otherwise). But when the individual pieces of the bill are polled, it polls VERY well. Theres just a lot of misinformation out there...a lot of misplaced anger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/opinion/12krugman.html?ref=opinion

Crushaholic
03-12-2010, 09:31 AM
Wastin' away again in Margaritaville. Lookin' for my lost shaker of salt...

TailgateNut
03-12-2010, 10:01 AM
Wastin' away again in Margaritaville. Lookin' for my lost shaker of salt...

:rofl:


The righties are freaking out!:rofl:

watermock
03-12-2010, 10:10 AM
Orwell on socialism from “Why I Joined the Independent Labour Party”:fficeffice" />
I have got to struggle against that, just as I have got to struggle against castor oil, rubber truncheons and concentration camps. And the only regime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a Socialist regime. If Fascism triumphs I am finished as a writer — that is to say, finished in my only effective capacity. That of itself would be a sufficient reason for joining a Socialist party.
I have put the personal aspect first, but obviously it is not the only one.
It is not possible for any thinking person to live in such a society as our own without wanting to change it. For perhaps ten years past I have had some grasp of the real nature of capitalist society. I have seen British imperialism at work in Burma, and I have seen something of the effects of poverty and unemployment in Britain. In so far as I have struggle against the system, it has been mainly by writing books which I hoped would influence the reading public. I shall continue to do that, of course, but at a moment like the present writing books is not enough. The tempo of events is quickening; the dangers which once seemed a generation distant are staring us in the face. One has got to be actively a Socialist, not merely sympathetic to Socialism, or one plays into the hands of our always-active enemies.


He's a patriot.