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View Full Version : Ok Guru's BPA for 11th pick who's worth it now


NFLBRONCO
03-10-2010, 01:45 PM
I know teams grades are different then most fans on this draft stuff. Forgetting need who do you see as clear BPA for 11th pick.

I would say

Dez
Spiller
McClain

any others would you put Morgan there?

ColoradoBuff
03-10-2010, 01:47 PM
McClain just ran a 4.74 and 4.71 today..so I think that all but guarentee's he will be there at 11. And I would love to see him in orange and blue!

SonOfLe-loLang
03-10-2010, 02:04 PM
I'd still rather see dan williams or trade down and get Iupati (if you can)

NFLBRONCO
03-10-2010, 02:13 PM
McClain just ran a 4.74 and 4.71 today..so I think that all but guarentee's he will be there at 11. And I would love to see him in orange and blue!

You want a guy with Crohn's Disease?

jebures
03-10-2010, 02:36 PM
You want a guy with Crohn's Disease?

what a d1ck head thing to say, just because he has a disease doesnt mean he cant function. If he manages it well, just like he obviously has during his time at Bama, it shouldnt be an issue. Id take him any day.

gyldenlove
03-10-2010, 03:03 PM
what a d1ck head thing to say, just because he has a disease doesnt mean he cant function. If he manages it well, just like he obviously has during his time at Bama, it shouldnt be an issue. Id take him any day.

We could get his brother Timmeh in the 2nd round, just because he has too many chromosomes doesn't mean he can't play football.

NFLBRONCO
03-10-2010, 03:12 PM
what a d1ck head thing to say, just because he has a disease doesnt mean he cant function. If he manages it well, just like he obviously has during his time at Bama, it shouldnt be an issue. Id take him any day.

I'm not making fun of his disease I'm talking about taking him at 11 because of it I wouldn't.

SoDak Bronco
03-10-2010, 05:47 PM
i'm not making fun of his disease i'm talking about taking him at 11 because of it i wouldn't.

+1

gunns
03-10-2010, 06:05 PM
I have to ask what people's definition of BPA is.

mattob14
03-10-2010, 06:36 PM
McClain has too many questions at this point to be BPA at 11. I really think he'll be the big slider this year. Same with Dez, too many question marks right now.

I'd say Spiller, Pierre-Paul, or whoever falls at OT (probably Davis or Williams) will end up being BPA at 11.

meangene
03-10-2010, 07:34 PM
We could get his brother Timmeh in the 2nd round, just because he has too many chromosomes doesn't mean he can't play football.

Hilarious!

robbieopperude
03-10-2010, 08:46 PM
BPA will probably be considered Spiller, Bryant or an OT. Based on the NE philosophy of drafting we are going to take somebody who is probably considered a top 30 guy but not necessarily BPA. I think we are going to be surprised.

Paladin
03-10-2010, 08:59 PM
I would say Bulaga, Morgan, or a different wide body. A DE makes more sense than a NT type, and Bulaga can play across the line.

Bronco Boy
03-10-2010, 10:02 PM
Doesn't BPA depend on who was taken in the first 10 picks?

ZONA
03-11-2010, 01:32 AM
Doesn't BPA depend on who was taken in the first 10 picks?

Yes. That's why this thread makes no sense. How do you know who the best availble player is at 11 when you don't know who was selected 1-10?

robbieopperude
03-11-2010, 07:10 PM
Yes. That's why this thread makes no sense. How do you know who the best availble player is at 11 when you don't know who was selected 1-10?

You can sort of guess on about 6 to 8 of them that will be gone.

Requiem
03-11-2010, 07:18 PM
C.J. Spiller, Dez Bryant, Anthony Davis, Sean Witherspoon. I consider those players. That is assuming Dan Williams is gone.

Play2win
03-11-2010, 07:18 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if we drafted an OT, that could also play Guard. It would fit in with McD's MO. Add strength to the lines, but also have the versatility to play all along the line (save, maybe Center), in order to have security against things that happen during the course of a season.

Play2win
03-11-2010, 07:20 PM
Could CJ Spiller turn into more of a receiver, or is always going to be mainly a RB first?

DBroncos4life
03-11-2010, 07:51 PM
C.J. Spiller, Dez Bryant, Anthony Davis, Sean Witherspoon. I consider those players. That is assuming Dan Williams is gone.

Why Weatherspoon? Do you really think he will be successful in a 3-4 system? Personally I don't. I also don't think many others think he is anything more then a WLB and a very good one at that. When most scouting reports say things like needs more gap discipline, doesn't shed blocks well with arms, plays out of control at times and over pursues play. I just don't see him being a ILB.

I know the Steelers did talk to him and Tomiln discussed the possibility of him playing Mack or Buck for them in the 3-4 system. Unlike the Steeler though we wouldn't have the ability to let him learn behind a great player like James Farrior who Weatherspoon would more likey replace in the future.

Anyways I agree that he is a good prospect I just don't know about him in our system.

Jason Pierre-Paul should be on the BPA list but I'm not sure he gets passed the Browns.

mhgaffney
03-11-2010, 07:54 PM
McLain has the size to dominate the middle -- and to stop the run.

If he's there at #11, how do you pass on him?

Bronco Boy
03-11-2010, 08:16 PM
I think probably the BPA for the 11th pick is the guy we all thought would be picked within the first 10 that fell for some reason. Thread over?

FireFly
03-15-2010, 07:43 PM
I think probably the BPA for the 11th pick is the guy we all thought would be picked within the first 10 that fell for some reason. Thread over?

I think the point of the thread is to speculate on who you think will be there at 11.

If you don't like speculation, the draft forum probably isn't the place for you.

:peace:

Drek
03-16-2010, 03:24 AM
McLain has the size to dominate the middle -- and to stop the run.

If he's there at #11, how do you pass on him?

He's slow, his technique and fundamentals are overrated, and he played in a system designed to make him look good.

That and now he has a serious medical condition that could at any point require significant surgery.

Sean Weatherspoon will be selected before him.

If we stay at #11 I'd want Dan Williams, CJ Spiller, Sean Weatherspoon, Eric Berry, Derrick Morgan, or Joe Haden.

For Berry to be there it'd take a pretty shocking slide, but it could happen because there is good depth at higher value positions so teams could pass on him for that reason.

Joe Haden is a pretty possible slider, and would be the lowest ranked guy on this list for me, but if he's there and none of the rest are (unlikely) I wouldn't mind taking him.

Weatherspoon can play any LB spot in a 3-4. He's got good size and excellent strength, along with sideline to sideline speed, a great head for the game, and leadership like no LB we've had since Al Wilson.

Dan Williams obviously gives us an elite young talent who can play both DE and NT, much like Haloti Ngata does for the Ravens. Any 3-4 team could use that. I personally think Jacksonville jumps on him right in front of us though to answer their growing issues on the DL.

If the coaches believe Ayers has the ability to move inside or put his hand on the ground with regularity in a 3-4 then I could see Derrick Morgan to give us another rush OLB to compliment Doom.

CJ Spiller would be a perfect compliment to Moreno and extend the careers of both players. It'd be a lot like how the Panthers drafted Jonathan Stewart just a couple years after drafting Deangelo Williams.

chaz
03-16-2010, 12:30 PM
CJ Spiller would be a perfect compliment to Moreno and extend the careers of both players. It'd be a lot like how the Panthers drafted Jonathan Stewart just a couple years after drafting Deangelo Williams.

Exactly what I envision as well, I realize it's a lot of money to invest in one position but I'd love to have a running game like the Panthers, while extending the careers of both players at the same time.

Dedhed
03-16-2010, 12:44 PM
Why Weatherspoon? Do you really think he will be successful in a 3-4 system?
Absolutely. Weatherspoon can play any LB position, and well, not as a convert like DJ.

Obushma
03-16-2010, 12:45 PM
There are just to many needs to sign another RB. I agree that it would help extend both players careers, but I'm more interested in filling positions to build a better team.

At this point I'd say those needs were IOL, ILB, DL, S, CB in that order. I just cant justify spending the 11th pick on a G or a C.

Kaylore
03-17-2010, 07:22 PM
There are just to many needs to sign another RB. I agree that it would help extend both players careers, but I'm more interested in filling positions to build a better team.

At this point I'd say those needs were IOL, ILB, DL, S, CB in that order. I just cant justify spending the 11th pick on a G or a C.

I'm with this. And I agree despite huge needs at center and guard we can't throw our number 11 at one. Don't forget punter!

ELEVATION
03-18-2010, 06:02 AM
There are just to many needs to sign another RB. I agree that it would help extend both players careers, but I'm more interested in filling positions to build a better team.

At this point I'd say those needs were IOL, ILB, DL, S, CB in that order. I just cant justify spending the 11th pick on a G or a C.

voice of reason thank god.....i would take brandon graham, odrick, weatherspoon, spiller, haden, earl thomas, Dez bryant, rolando mcclain before A c/g at 11....regardless of the need there

ELEVATION
03-18-2010, 06:02 AM
we need Weatherspoon at 11, he will invigorate this front seven defense in ways not even dawkins can do....

s0phr0syne
03-18-2010, 09:07 AM
Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, Trent Williams, Iupati, Odrick, or Benn/Thomas at 11 are what come to mind to me right now.

Caligula
03-18-2010, 09:11 AM
spiller? why would we use another 1st round pick on a RB?

s0phr0syne
03-18-2010, 09:16 AM
yeah, actually, I think I don't really care that much for Spiller. Somehow I just vomited his name out there.

ayjackson
03-18-2010, 09:24 AM
Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, Trent Williams, Iupati, Spiller, or Benn/Thomas at 11 are what come to mind to me right now.

Well Berry and Thomas are good enough for the pick. But with the two vets, two sophmores and maybe Champ Bailey in a couple of years, the safety position seems stocked at the moment.

I'd never spend a pick earlier than the late first on an interior lineman. And really there's no need to because nobody else would either.

I think we have a left tackle.

Benn and Thomas are maybe the only two receivers projectable to be a number one WR, but there's significant risk there that I'd be reluctant to spend a first rounder.

Yeah, Spiller. Mmmmm.

Right now I'd say something along the lines of..... 1. Spiller 2. Ducasse 3. JD Walton 4. Micah Johnson 5. Eric Decker or Carlton Mitchell or Marcus Easley 6. Linval Joseph, DE 7a. Cameron Sheffield, LB 7b. Chris McCoy, LB

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-18-2010, 10:32 AM
Well, obviously if you want Pouncey, you trade back a little. The Steelers are rumored to possibly take him at #18, so you might have to stay ahead of them. #18 is massively early for an OC though, but they need on almost as bad as we do. Hartings is terrible, and that franchise is known for tremendous OCs.

Mayock's on his jock though. Said he was tremendous in drills at his Pro Day and is an instant starter. A great value in the late 1st. I'm not sure he makes it to the late 1st, but since we are the only team in the NFL that appears to not have a starting OC, and Pouncey is clearly this draft's best, followed distantly by Walton, maybe we go Cleveland Browns on this draft, scoot down multiple times and land a stud OC.


As for Best Available Player at #11, they will mostly be positions we don't need. CB Joe Haden, S Earl Thomas, OT Trent Williams, DE Derrick Morgan, DE Jason Pierre-Paul, DE Brandon Graham.

Two guys we'd probably consider due to potential needs are Dez Bryant and Dan Williams, but I don't think they will be there. I think somebody takes Dez in the Top 10, and I think if Dan Williams is there at #10, Miami will trade up with Jacksonville to nab him before us. Thus, by default, I think Jared Odrick is possibly the best available for us at a position of need. I don't think McClain nor Spiller are good value at #11. They seem to be sliding a little, meanwhile Odrick keeps moving up.

To be honest, I dont think there is a best available player option for us at #11 unless Dez or Williams do somehow slide that far. A tradeback seems extremely likely to me. Probably to nab Pouncey or Odrick at better value.

Requiem
03-18-2010, 10:34 AM
I will kill myself if we take Pouncey or Odrick in a trade back.

bap454
03-18-2010, 10:56 AM
Why Weatherspoon? Do you really think he will be successful in a 3-4 system? Personally I don't. I also don't think many others think he is anything more then a WLB and a very good one at that. When most scouting reports say things like needs more gap discipline, doesn't shed blocks well with arms, plays out of control at times and over pursues play. I just don't see him being a ILB.

I know the Steelers did talk to him and Tomiln discussed the possibility of him playing Mack or Buck for them in the 3-4 system. Unlike the Steeler though we wouldn't have the ability to let him learn behind a great player like James Farrior who Weatherspoon would more likey replace in the future.

Anyways I agree that he is a good prospect I just don't know about him in our system.

Jason Pierre-Paul should be on the BPA list but I'm not sure he gets passed the Browns.

Mayock doesnt agree with you. He believes Spoon can play all the LB positions.

s0phr0syne
03-18-2010, 11:28 AM
I will kill myself if we take Pouncey or Odrick in a trade back.


What are the negatives about Odrick? I had been ignoring him for some reason in all my draft readings. Just figured he wasn't a good fit, but ran across some things saying that he's the most natural 3-4DE in the draft. What do you see?

PRBronco
03-18-2010, 11:36 AM
What are the negatives about Odrick? I had been ignoring him for some reason in all my draft readings. Just figured he wasn't a good fit, but ran across some things saying that he's the most natural 3-4DE in the draft. What do you see?

He can't anchor against the run at all, from what I've heard. So totally useless for us.

meangene
03-18-2010, 11:36 AM
Casserly's mock (picks 1-10) had Clausen falling out of the top ten. If that happens, we could very well swing a trade to move back and get additional picks. Doubt he falls that far, but you never know.

Right now, if we stayed at #11, I would say Weatherspoon and Spiller in that order as my preferences. People will say we don't need a running back, but, most of the successful running teams have two good backs. We can't expect Buckhalter to stay healthy and duplicate last season and Spiller is a nice complement to Moreno. Plus, he becomes our kick and punt returner which should help Royal to concentrate on improving as a receiver in this system.

meangene
03-18-2010, 11:40 AM
He can't anchor against the run at all, from what I've heard. So totally useless for us.

He had a tendency, on occasion, to not stay low due to his height but seems to have corrected that as he progressed. I wouldn't mind him at all if we moved back in round one.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-18-2010, 11:51 AM
He can't anchor against the run at all, from what I've heard. So totally useless for us.

Nope, that's a bunch of crap. He's a stud against the run. He's decent in pass rush as well, but he's better against the run.


There's a reason he was the Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year. And then destroyed the Senior Bowl week. Then impressed at the Combine. And then further impressed at his Pro Day yesterday.

Rotoworld has him in the Top 15 now. TFY Draft for the Sporting News has him in the Top 10.

He's better than Tyson Jackson in every conceivable way, and he went #3 Overall last year. Odrick is going to rocket up boards until the draft.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-18-2010, 11:55 AM
I will kill myself if we take Pouncey or Odrick in a trade back.


I still can't fathom how or why you decided to hate these two particular prospects.

Pouncey has been tremendous all off-season, Mayock watched him at his Pro Day yesterday and said he will start and be a stud from Day 1. He's pro-ready now. Yet, you said he had bad technique. I still haven't heard that from any credible source.

Odrick is simply flawless. Mayock has him as his #3 DT ahead of Dan Williams, which I'm not sure I agree with. But, I definitely believe Odrick will be tremendous in the NFL. He already has prototype size, he's a beast against the run, he can penetrate and split double teams, and he has excellent hand use and technique. There are no negatives about him either.

Both of these guys have built up a ton of steam since you crapped on them a month ago. Odrick looks like he might go in the Top 15 as is. Pouncey still looks like #18 to Pittsburgh is his ceiling, but he won't escape the 1st Round.

DBroncos4life
03-18-2010, 12:18 PM
Mayock doesnt agree with you. He believes Spoon can play all the LB positions.

I got to respect his opinion more then mine in this matter so I'm on board with him.

Requiem
03-18-2010, 12:53 PM
What are the negatives about Odrick? I had been ignoring him for some reason in all my draft readings. Just figured he wasn't a good fit, but ran across some things saying that he's the most natural 3-4DE in the draft. What do you see?

Odrick is #5 behind me on the "DT" list behind Suh, McCoy, Price and Williams.

Getting to play inside as a DT in 4-3 will be his best fit. I will be surprised if a 3-4 team takes him early in round one to be a 3-4 because of his inconsistency with leverage, mediocre strength at the P.O.A, and his inability to break the double team. His strengths such as pursuit and penetration will be neutralized in his role as a 5 technique in a 3-4 scheme. I think he can be a great "3" in the NFL, but would be an average "5" end in the pros. Just my thoughts.

I have a serious problem investing a high first-round selection in a player who did not show much flash in college, and does not have any particular part of his game mastered. There are a lot of jack-of-all-trades players in this class, and a strong one of DT's. I feel there are better fits and investments of value for out defensive line than Odrick in round one.

I respect MUG a ton, and have been draft talkin' with him on Mania for years, but Odrick is someone we completely disagree on.

I also feel the same with Pouncey, and believe he has a lot more refinement necessary as far as technique goes before he is a stud in the NFL. I'd much rather Walton or Tennant somewhere in rounds two or three than trading back for Pouncey and using a first on him. Just believe that is not a maximization of value, and is not the best place to fit a need on our team, especially given the weakness in this class. Pouncey is nowhere near the level of some of the guys that came out and went early on last year and years prior.

PRBronco
03-18-2010, 12:58 PM
Nope, that's a bunch of crap. He's a stud against the run. He's decent in pass rush as well, but he's better against the run.


There's a reason he was the Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year. And then destroyed the Senior Bowl week. Then impressed at the Combine. And then further impressed at his Pro Day yesterday.

Rotoworld has him in the Top 15 now. TFY Draft for the Sporting News has him in the Top 10.

He's better than Tyson Jackson in every conceivable way, and he went #3 Overall last year. Odrick is going to rocket up boards until the draft.

MUG you need to show up around here sooner in the draft process! Now I have to change my preconceived notions of players! Killing me here man.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-18-2010, 01:27 PM
MUG you need to show up around here sooner in the draft process! Now I have to change my preconceived notions of players! Killing me here man.


I pop in every now and then. There just isn't much action in this draft forum compared to Mania. I try and respond to Requiem when I see his posts. He likes to pop in at Mania now and then, disagree with me, and then disappear. So, I do the same in return here. Ha!


I think in terms of prospects, most of the Bronco fans are united. Everyone loves JD Walton in the 2nd or 3rd, I do as well. Nobody really wants us to take Pouncey in the 1st, though if we traded back, I'd be fine with that. Everyone seems to want Dan Williams at #11 if he's still around, I tend to think the Chiefs will take him at #5 since they have no NT, and Pioli loves drafting D-line early. Most folks like the idea of DeMaryius Thomas if he falls to the 2nd Round due to his foot.

The division seems to be on what to do if Williams is gone and Bryant, Odrick, and McClain are there at #11, and on exactly what compensation Marshall should bring back in a trade. I think trading back for Pouncey comes into play at that point.

Some like Odrick, some don't. I don't see why not. Some like Pouncey, some don't like the idea of taking an OC in Round 1, and I do understand that. Dez Bryant is almost as polarizing as Brandon Marshall, but I think unlike Marshall, a lot of Bryant's "hate" is undeserved and unsubstantiated rumors. Rolando McClain is interesting, but I feel the same way about taking a TED LB as Requiem does about taking an OC in Round 1.

Ideally for me, we take the only legitimate 3-4 DE prospect in this draft (outside of possibly Alualu and Houston), Odrick, in the 1st. We nab DeMaryius in Round 2. We luck out and have Walton drop in Round 3. We take Eric Olsen in Round 4 for interior depth at all 3 spots. We then take a LB and Punter in the late rounds. If Marshall is traded, a swing OT to replace Polumbus becomes a selection in rounds 2-4. I like Vladimir DuCasse, Marshall Newhouse, Zane Beadles for that type of role, can also play at OG.

Durango
03-18-2010, 01:45 PM
Rolando McClain may be such a special talent that it would be dumb to pass on him at 11, Crohns disease and all. His size speed measureables are off the charts and his playing history only adds legitimacy to his skill.

I don't think he'll still be there at 11, but if he is, the Broncos shouldn't wait a second to make the pick, in my opinion.

Requiem
03-18-2010, 01:47 PM
I try to just kick it here on the Mane because of chumps like Alastor on Mania who make the place suck. I'm glad that the moderators here let most things slide, but come in during instances where things do matter the most. It's more abrasive here, and more welcoming. Plus, I can't post on BF anymore so my options are limited -- and the Mane has always had a great community and history.

I'd much rather be here than dueling it out over on Mania where 14 year old Florida Gators fans think they know more about the draft and evaluating prospects than I do, or on another site whose owner has to beg for money to foot the bill, and ends up coming up with the idea that Veteran's need their own forum to discuss political issues because they are too scared of the possible ramifications of showing dissent on certain things in public.

The Mane is where it is at. I suggest that you, Elevation and a few others from there just come over here and start making it more active. You guys always have good things to say, and I know a lot of people here would appreciate it.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-18-2010, 02:18 PM
I try to just kick it here on the Mane because of chumps like Alastor on Mania who make the place suck. I'm glad that the moderators here let most things slide, but come in during instances where things do matter the most. It's more abrasive here, and more welcoming. Plus, I can't post on BF anymore so my options are limited -- and the Mane has always had a great community and history.

I'd much rather be here than dueling it out over on Mania where 14 year old Florida Gators fans think they know more about the draft and evaluating prospects than I do, or on another site whose owner has to beg for money to foot the bill, and ends up coming up with the idea that Veteran's need their own forum to discuss political issues because they are too scared of the possible ramifications of showing dissent on certain things in public.

The Mane is where it is at. I suggest that you, Elevation and a few others from there just come over here and start making it more active. You guys always have good things to say, and I know a lot of people here would appreciate it.


I won't even start on Broncosforums. I'm still ticked off by their off-handed approach to stopping blatant hate speech and racism. Hopefully, they've gotten their act together in the two years since. There were some quality people over there.

I like this site, the draft forum is just not active enough for me. At Mania, I can start a thread on something I want to debate and I get 5 pages in a few hours. Here, sometimes it takes days to get a good response going. Plus, I never leave the draft forum. I don't do off-topic or General Discussions, its always draft 24/7/365. That's probably why I can handle it over there. The only guy I've ever gotten in trouble due to cussing at was BroncoFanSD and he's now perma banned and off spamming MHR. So, life is good once again.


As for Alastor, he's growing on me, once I saw some pictures of him, I felt like I understood him better.

Requiem
03-18-2010, 02:23 PM
You should probably edit it out, but it's not really against the rules.

I figured that is what Alastor looked like anyways. I'm surprised he even came back to Mania after he left with his butt hurt after I messed with him way back in the day.

Most recently, he got all pissy when he tried to tout him finally getting his Master's in Education from DU and went on stating it was a top school in the nation for what he was doing, but ended up showing him several links where his school and department were not listed as a top 100 graduate institution for education in the USA -- he then deleted the thread like a wimp.

He looks like Bill Gates with cerebral palsy.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-18-2010, 02:56 PM
LOL:rofl:You should probably edit it out, but it's not really against the rules.

I figured that is what Alastor looked like anyways. I'm surprised he even came back to Mania after he left with his butt hurt after I messed with him way back in the day.

Most recently, he got all pissy when he tried to tout him finally getting his Master's in Education from DU and went on stating it was a top school in the nation for what he was doing, but ended up showing him several links where his school and department were not listed as a top 100 graduate institution for education in the USA -- he then deleted the thread like a wimp.

He looks like Bill Gates with cerebral palsy.



You're too much. :rofl:

barryr
03-18-2010, 04:05 PM
Right now, if they can do it, I think the Broncos best move is to trade down and get an extra pick someplace. They can easily get someone they like in the 15-20 range as the #11 pick. This assumes there isn't some surprise drop of a player of course.

ELEVATION
03-19-2010, 03:47 AM
yeah the 2 best draft guys i know in one area!Booya!

ELEVATION
03-19-2010, 03:50 AM
I try to just kick it here on the Mane because of chumps like Alastor on Mania who make the place suck. I'm glad that the moderators here let most things slide, but come in during instances where things do matter the most. It's more abrasive here, and more welcoming. Plus, I can't post on BF anymore so my options are limited -- and the Mane has always had a great community and history.

I'd much rather be here than dueling it out over on Mania where 14 year old Florida Gators fans think they know more about the draft and evaluating prospects than I do, or on another site whose owner has to beg for money to foot the bill, and ends up coming up with the idea that Veteran's need their own forum to discuss political issues because they are too scared of the possible ramifications of showing dissent on certain things in public.

The Mane is where it is at. I suggest that you, Elevation and a few others from there just come over here and start making it more active. You guys always have good things to say, and I know a lot of people here would appreciate it.

kudos to you bud....and yes the mania draft forum is filled with clowns but MUg is right its the most active....

BF has a very lame Draft forum.....and the drama there is weird somedays....

i like here, but i dont post alot because peopel really seem to care more about post count here at times...and there are alot of hypocrtical peopel around here as well....

i prefer just to read you and MUG here:notworthy

gyldenlove
03-19-2010, 10:01 AM
I still can't fathom how or why you decided to hate these two particular prospects.

Pouncey has been tremendous all off-season, Mayock watched him at his Pro Day yesterday and said he will start and be a stud from Day 1. He's pro-ready now. Yet, you said he had bad technique. I still haven't heard that from any credible source.

Odrick is simply flawless. Mayock has him as his #3 DT ahead of Dan Williams, which I'm not sure I agree with. But, I definitely believe Odrick will be tremendous in the NFL. He already has prototype size, he's a beast against the run, he can penetrate and split double teams, and he has excellent hand use and technique. There are no negatives about him either.

Both of these guys have built up a ton of steam since you crapped on them a month ago. Odrick looks like he might go in the Top 15 as is. Pouncey still looks like #18 to Pittsburgh is his ceiling, but he won't escape the 1st Round.

I really love Odrick, his quickness and very solid technique is something that is appealing. Last year it was very apparent that we lack the ability to generate pressure on the pocket from the DE position, that means it is a lot harder for our OLBs to do consistent damage and it leads to the offensive line being able to get to the next level and block.

My feeling is that Odrick would be disruptive from that 5 tech spot and would be able to open up more lanes for out OLB and especially and our ILBs. He is very strong for his weight and he has faced a lot of double teams so he has experience in using angles and defeating the double team.

Pouncey is a guy I am not big on, it is not that I don't like his talent, but I am worried he will be badly overdrafted. I don't think he compared that favourably to other top centers in the draft in recent years and in a draft as strong as this one that should make him a mid 2nd round pick at most, I just don't think he will be good value higher than that and that is what I don't like. Also I have to admit that in general I am not a big fan of Florida players, while they win a lot, I see too many of them who recieve very little coaching in college and come out very raw with an inflated sense of how good they are. Lastly Pounceys history in a shotgun option offense is not something that thrills me, there will be a learning curve in blocking with the QB under center and not blocking for option plays.

Mediator12
03-19-2010, 11:24 AM
I still can't fathom how or why you decided to hate these two particular prospects.

Pouncey has been tremendous all off-season, Mayock watched him at his Pro Day yesterday and said he will start and be a stud from Day 1. He's pro-ready now. Yet, you said he had bad technique. I still haven't heard that from any credible source.

Odrick is simply flawless. Mayock has him as his #3 DT ahead of Dan Williams, which I'm not sure I agree with. But, I definitely believe Odrick will be tremendous in the NFL. He already has prototype size, he's a beast against the run, he can penetrate and split double teams, and he has excellent hand use and technique. There are no negatives about him either.

Both of these guys have built up a ton of steam since you crapped on them a month ago. Odrick looks like he might go in the Top 15 as is. Pouncey still looks like #18 to Pittsburgh is his ceiling, but he won't escape the 1st Round.

Pouncey is not the some of his parts as a player. He is not the elite level prospect that I see people talk about. He is the best OC in this draft, but that is not saying much.

Things that concern me about Pouncey:

1. The spread option offense means he has little college experience making line calls and playing in pro protection schemes. All the technique he has used the last few years does not translate into the pro game at all, including being able to line up poorly at the snap.

2. The technique he did use was real shaky. He has excellent explosion out of his snap, but if he does not get his hands on the player he struggles to redirect and finish his assignment. His hands are average, and not explosive in controlling players.

3. When teams did come after Florida, Pouncey was not effective changing line calls at all. The scheme dictated some of this, but he really struggled against Arkansas who attacked the A gaps mercilessly all game long. He struggled and even worse the whole OL struggled to contain this. In college, Florida was simply too talented to be concerned about this in their scheme. Not many teams could really execute well enough to concern them. In the pros, you better be able to adjust on the fly and cover up weaknesses presnap and postsnap.

Now, about Odrick:

1. Flawless is a real poor term for any draft prospect. There are 2 outstanding DT's in this draft that are as close to flawless at what they do as anyone coming out in years. Odrick is not one of them.

2. Odrick improved his consistency this year over previous years. He has excellent size and get off. His upper body strength allowed him to control the OL in pass rush.

3. Where he struggles is in lower body strength and agility. He did get washed out of plays when he lost leverage due to playing high, which was more often than he should have. If he did not win the penetration battle, he would lose the POA all too often.

4. He strugges in Short yardage situations when his need to penetrate is offset by the situation. He was unable to make plays or even be stout at the POA when teams went right after him and used his height against him.

5. I am not sure about the excellent hand use and technique either. I would say he is above average in pass rush due to his strength and explosion. However, his short yardage tech leaves much to be desired for a guy rated this high.

6. If he were truly flawless, he would be considered a very high level Prospect for the 3-4 DE position instead of just a 3 Tech and that would improve his overall draft position based on scheme versatility. So far, the 3-4 teams do not seem to be as interested as the 4-3 One gap teams.


I really think you are overrating his run stopping abilities. He is not poor, but he relies on the scheme to play the run instead of being stout and winning the individual battle when I evaluated him.

underrated29
03-19-2010, 11:49 AM
dam. I have nothing to add at this time, but we got some good draft guys in this thread. Lots of names I recognize and respect. Lets keep this thread going. I am enjoying it so far...


PS- I would love to see a picture of alaster or whatever his name is. I always pictured him looking like the Teachers assistant in the movie roadtrip. The one that tries to get with amy smart and make sure that the main character misses his final exam...

Requiem
03-19-2010, 12:02 PM
U29, I'll send it to you via PM.

Cito Pelon
03-19-2010, 12:41 PM
I'm thinking for Denver their possible BPA's at 11 will be D players. There's still 34 days til the draft, so I haven't got into it too much so far. But right now I'm thinking D is the way to go (if Denver keeps 11) since there's some pretty good D guys that will be available at 11:

Joe Haden, Dan Williams, Brandon Graham, McClain.

I guess there's an outside chance Denver goes for an OT at 11 as a BPA, but it seems like there will be good D players available, and I think the FO wants to build the D as a long-term powerhouse.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-19-2010, 02:43 PM
Pouncey is not the some of his parts as a player. He is not the elite level prospect that I see people talk about. He is the best OC in this draft, but that is not saying much.

Things that concern me about Pouncey:

1. The spread option offense means he has little college experience making line calls and playing in pro protection schemes. All the technique he has used the last few years does not translate into the pro game at all, including being able to line up poorly at the snap.

2. The technique he did use was real shaky. He has excellent explosion out of his snap, but if he does not get his hands on the player he struggles to redirect and finish his assignment. His hands are average, and not explosive in controlling players.

3. When teams did come after Florida, Pouncey was not effective changing line calls at all. The scheme dictated some of this, but he really struggled against Arkansas who attacked the A gaps mercilessly all game long. He struggled and even worse the whole OL struggled to contain this. In college, Florida was simply too talented to be concerned about this in their scheme. Not many teams could really execute well enough to concern them. In the pros, you better be able to adjust on the fly and cover up weaknesses presnap and postsnap.

Now, about Odrick:

1. Flawless is a real poor term for any draft prospect. There are 2 outstanding DT's in this draft that are as close to flawless at what they do as anyone coming out in years. Odrick is not one of them.

2. Odrick improved his consistency this year over previous years. He has excellent size and get off. His upper body strength allowed him to control the OL in pass rush.

3. Where he struggles is in lower body strength and agility. He did get washed out of plays when he lost leverage due to playing high, which was more often than he should have. If he did not win the penetration battle, he would lose the POA all too often.

4. He strugges in Short yardage situations when his need to penetrate is offset by the situation. He was unable to make plays or even be stout at the POA when teams went right after him and used his height against him.

5. I am not sure about the excellent hand use and technique either. I would say he is above average in pass rush due to his strength and explosion. However, his short yardage tech leaves much to be desired for a guy rated this high.

6. If he were truly flawless, he would be considered a very high level Prospect for the 3-4 DE position instead of just a 3 Tech and that would improve his overall draft position based on scheme versatility. So far, the 3-4 teams do not seem to be as interested as the 4-3 One gap teams.


I really think you are overrating his run stopping abilities. He is not poor, but he relies on the scheme to play the run instead of being stout and winning the individual battle when I evaluated him.


Certainly an interesting counterview, and I know Requiem puts heavy stock in what you think. And, obviously you know football.

That being said, I still disagree. The points you made on Pouncey are all valid. I think you're overstating the concerns though. Maybe I'm overstating his positives. I don't do much personalized film work, I'm not trained, I don't want to pretend I know what I'm looking for when I don't. So, for that aspect of it, I do tend to place extra stock listening to what those with that experience state. As of late, that's been really limited to Mike Mayock because, 1) His track record is impressive, and 2) He will sit there and show you exactly what he's talking about. The mixture of the two makes me give him the extra weight. And he loves Pouncey...and his technique. And he wasn't this high on Alex Mack last year. To me, this means he thinks Pouncey is better than Mack, more Pro-Ready than Mack, and Mack was a stud last season for Cleveland. Personally, I think Mack was a once-a-decade OC, but I do think Pouncey is better than Eric Wood. The prevailing opinion that he could be overdrafted a bit due to this OC class lacking star power is probably a valid concern. And I'm open-minded to any critiques, but I think he's a solid selection in the 20-30 range, definitely not at #11 though.

Now, as far as Odrick. I have spent a lot of personal time on him. More than any other prospect in this draft. I don't see any flaws. He's not perfect, but I don't see anything he can't do at the next level with a little fine-tuning. I did a play-by-play attempt at scouting just Odrick, Heyward, and Boren in the Ohio State v. Penn State game. All three guys were really impressive, Heyward was mind-blowingly good. Boren, whom I think was the best interior O-lineman in the nation, handled Odrick fairly well. But he had a lot of double and triple teams, in the 2nd Half, Penn State just kept lining Odrick up away from Boren, and Ohio State countered by pulling Boren every play to whack Odrick. It was borderline comical. But, in that game, Odrick was doubled a ton, and tripled 5 or 6 times. He still dominated in the running game. He didn't always make the tackle, but he forced the runner to a place he didn't want to go for minimal yards almost every time. His pass rushing kind of sucked. He got a couple licks, but he was much more effective against the run. I know exactly what you are saying about playing high, I saw that at times and he got washed out on roller skates. But that did not happen very often, him shedding blocks, splitting doubleteams, and forcing the runner inside did. And it was neat watching him get lined up at every possible D-line position. He was effective from them all. Boren did shut him down one on one a couple times though, nobody else could even slow him.

So, to tie that rambling together, I think the guy is a great player from personal observation, and then when you have Mayock singing his praises, as well as Odrick destroying the competition at the Senior Bowl week, having a very strong Combine, and then turning heads at his Pro Day two days ago....I don't see a reason to go against all of that evidence simply because a knowledgable poster or two has a counterview. I certainly can respect your stance though, especially since it seems you are basing it off of what you have seen and believe personally. Can always respect that. But, still disagree.

GoBroncos84
03-19-2010, 03:07 PM
Williams, McClain, Spiller could be BPA at 11 for us. Trading back and landing Pouncey or Iupati would be a great option. Not only would either player fit a big need, but adding extra draft picks in a draft this talented would be wise. I'm really loving Walton and Tennant in the 2nd or 3rd though, so if we can get Williams or McClain at 11 I hope they pull the trigger

gyldenlove
03-19-2010, 06:27 PM
Rolando Mcclain is my favourite, he fits everything we want and need and he frankly looks very impressive.

He is one of the few guys I have actually looked at on game tape and he just comes off so well. He has the same limitations that all college LBs have, he is inexperienced compared to guys like Patrick Willis or David Harris, but he is very instinctive out there and it shows, he tackles very well and he seems to make everyone around him better. One thing I like about him is that he is not a pile jumper, his stats are almost all earned the hard way.

I believe he would be a really solid addition to our defense and with him and DJ back there we would have a ton of athleticism and it would really open up some new coverages.

meangene
03-19-2010, 07:24 PM
Rolando Mcclain is my favourite, he fits everything we want and need and he frankly looks very impressive.

He is one of the few guys I have actually looked at on game tape and he just comes off so well. He has the same limitations that all college LBs have, he is inexperienced compared to guys like Patrick Willis or David Harris, but he is very instinctive out there and it shows, he tackles very well and he seems to make everyone around him better. One thing I like about him is that he is not a pile jumper, his stats are almost all earned the hard way.

I believe he would be a really solid addition to our defense and with him and DJ back there we would have a ton of athleticism and it would really open up some new coverages.

I'm a huge McClain fan as well. But, the whole Chron's disease thing really makes me nervous for a guy picked #11 overall. None of the analysts or evaluators seem to place much importance on it - pointing out he has never missed a game because of it - and don't downgrade him at all. Still, I don't know. I really like Weatherspoon and, again, all the analysts and evaluators feel he could fit well playing inside which he did as a senior. He himself has expressed a preference for playing inside and calling the defensive signals. All things considered, I might prefer Weatherspoon at this point.

tsiguy96
03-19-2010, 07:25 PM
some scouts think mcclain is not even a first rounder. think laurinitis, slipped because hes not a patrick willis, game changing MLB. neither is mcclain.

with spiller,s omething like 20 of his 50 TDs were OVER 50 yards long.

Mediator12
03-19-2010, 07:35 PM
Certainly an interesting counterview, and I know Requiem puts heavy stock in what you think. And, obviously you know football.

That being said, I still disagree. The points you made on Pouncey are all valid. I think you're overstating the concerns though. Maybe I'm overstating his positives. I don't do much personalized film work, I'm not trained, I don't want to pretend I know what I'm looking for when I don't. So, for that aspect of it, I do tend to place extra stock listening to what those with that experience state. As of late, that's been really limited to Mike Mayock because, 1) His track record is impressive, and 2) He will sit there and show you exactly what he's talking about. The mixture of the two makes me give him the extra weight. And he loves Pouncey...and his technique. And he wasn't this high on Alex Mack last year. To me, this means he thinks Pouncey is better than Mack, more Pro-Ready than Mack, and Mack was a stud last season for Cleveland. Personally, I think Mack was a once-a-decade OC, but I do think Pouncey is better than Eric Wood. The prevailing opinion that he could be overdrafted a bit due to this OC class lacking star power is probably a valid concern. And I'm open-minded to any critiques, but I think he's a solid selection in the 20-30 range, definitely not at #11 though.

Now, as far as Odrick. I have spent a lot of personal time on him. More than any other prospect in this draft. I don't see any flaws. He's not perfect, but I don't see anything he can't do at the next level with a little fine-tuning. I did a play-by-play attempt at scouting just Odrick, Heyward, and Boren in the Ohio State v. Penn State game. All three guys were really impressive, Heyward was mind-blowingly good. Boren, whom I think was the best interior O-lineman in the nation, handled Odrick fairly well. But he had a lot of double and triple teams, in the 2nd Half, Penn State just kept lining Odrick up away from Boren, and Ohio State countered by pulling Boren every play to whack Odrick. It was borderline comical. But, in that game, Odrick was doubled a ton, and tripled 5 or 6 times. He still dominated in the running game. He didn't always make the tackle, but he forced the runner to a place he didn't want to go for minimal yards almost every time. His pass rushing kind of sucked. He got a couple licks, but he was much more effective against the run. I know exactly what you are saying about playing high, I saw that at times and he got washed out on roller skates. But that did not happen very often, him shedding blocks, splitting doubleteams, and forcing the runner inside did. And it was neat watching him get lined up at every possible D-line position. He was effective from them all. Boren did shut him down one on one a couple times though, nobody else could even slow him.

So, to tie that rambling together, I think the guy is a great player from personal observation, and then when you have Mayock singing his praises, as well as Odrick destroying the competition at the Senior Bowl week, having a very strong Combine, and then turning heads at his Pro Day two days ago....I don't see a reason to go against all of that evidence simply because a knowledgable poster or two has a counterview. I certainly can respect your stance though, especially since it seems you are basing it off of what you have seen and believe personally. Can always respect that. But, still disagree.

That might be one of the best responses to a post I have seen here in years. Thanks for taking the time to actually talk football!

Mayock is so good because he gets access to the coaches game film and really does his homework. Plus, he has a staff of several guys who help him do research and gets some of the best access to coaches and scouts. By far the best "Draft Analyst" that the public gets to see. He is my favotite to watch.

That being said, I try to never read anyone else's opinions on a prospect until I have done the legwork myself. I disagree with him very rarely, but these are 2 of the guys I just do not see what he sees. Part of that is how you evaluate lineman.

I started Watching Odrick's film a year ago before the draft because he was on several watch lists for this years draft. I watch DL the most and it is easily my best position to evaluate. I watch the top DL at least 2 years before they come out. Odrick has come a long way since then. His senior year was much better than the the previous 2 years technique wise, but he has still never been consistent using his hands unless he wins the initial get off and punch. Basically, he lacks counter moves and can get off balance on his penetration if he does not win with his initial punch. He should make more plays off his penetration, but can not as he does not have the balance to finish the play as often as he gets in the backfield. And, he does not get stout versus short yaradage. In fact, this is his worst tech overall. He gets sloppy with his hands and tries to power without leverage.

Now, what I like about him is his ability to win the majority of the get off the ball battles. He has the ideal frame to play 3 tech and the ability to get skinny in a gap to beat a double team if he wins the punch. He is the second best natural penetrating DT in this draft behind McCoy. He gives his all and will make effort plays.

Overall, I have him fourth in overall grading and a late first round grade due to not having the versatility of the other DT's in front of him. He does have excellent pro potential, but he is going to have to be more effective on running downs, especially short yardage plays in the pros. He reminds me a lot of Fili Moala of USC and now INDY, but with more consistency his senior year.

I was pretty high on Moala his junior year when he was playing across from Sedrick Ellis. However, his senior Year he got the attention teams gave to Ellis and he struggled to make the same plays he did as a junior. Of course he had 3 first round LB's cleaning up the trash behind him! Penn State was smarter to move Odrick around and not let teams account for him as easy in their blocking scheme. However, he still drew a lot of attention and funneled more plays to others like Moala did his senior year.

The thing about Pouncey to me is the spread technique. It scares me. When I watch him play I do not see him making the combination blocks and coming off his blocks in protection the way others claim he does so well. He rarely adjusts protections even when the presnap reads should dictate he does. All in all, I do not see him coming in and playing mentally at a high level. Physically, he has all the tools. And, he could be a very good player someday. I just do not see it translating to any but 2-3 NFL schemes right away like a first round OC should be. Maybe he plays OG to get the NFL game down right away, but I would be terrified to roll him out as a Center from game one.

Mediator12
03-20-2010, 08:01 AM
PFW just released this draft profile this morning on Odrick:

6. 3T-DLE Jared Odrick
Penn State senior
Ht: 6-5 | Wt: 304 | Sp: 5.06 | Arm: 34 | Hand: 9 3/4

Notes: Parade All-American in high school. As a true freshman in 2006, played 10 games as a reserve defensive end and recorded four tackles and one for loss (a sack). In '07, started 7-of-8 games played, totaling 16-4-2 with one pass batted down and a blocked kick before his season ended prematurely because of two injuries. Broke two bones in his left hand against Wisconsin then dislocated his right ankle against Indiana. In '08, started 11-of-13 games, totaling 41-9 1/2-4 1/2 with three batted passes and one forced fumble. Did not start the season opener against Coastal Carolina (insufficient practice time after recovering from injury) or against Iowa. Was charged with disorderly conduct in March '09 after getting into a fight with three Penn State students and another man and allegedly punching one of them. Police believed alcohol was a factor in the incident. Was the Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year in '09 after registering 43-11-7 with one pass batted down and one blocked kick in 13 starts.

Positives: Looks the part with a projectable frame and excellent body length to disrupt passing lanes. Outstanding athlete for a big man - good initial quickness and agility. Can torque his body, get skinny and knife through gaps. Loose-hipped with nice bend to twist and stunt. Creates extension and has a strong club-swim move. Drew constant double-teams and flushed a lot of production to teammates. Pursues hard - flattens down the line and ranges to the perimeter to make plays. Secure, wrap tackler. Outstanding work ethic. Tough and will play through injuries.

Negatives: Does not consistently play to his size. Not stout for a 300-pounder - lacks base strength to anchor and does not generate power from his lower half. Too often plays narrow-based. Is tall and gets washed when he lets his pads rise. Lunges and loses balance. Can do a better job working his hands and feet in unison. Lacks elite closing burst at the top of his rush. Could play more disciplined.

Summary: Big, versatile, athletic defensive tackle with flexibility and quickness to play the three-technique in a four-man front where he can slant, stunt and penetrate. Lack of base strength and inconsistent pad level could lessen interest from odd-front defenses seeking fenceposts, but will also warrant interest as a five-technique and overall versatility adds to his value.

NFL projection: Late first-round pick


I think this profile matches almost everything I said about Odrick. I like Nolan Nawrocki almost as much as Mayock. He has the best profiles you can read about, whereas Mayock usually just talks about it on NFLN.

To be fair, here is his profile on Pouncey. He really likes him too, maybe I am wrong on him but I just do not see some of this stuff.

5. C Maurkice Pouncey
Florida junior
Ht: 6-4 1/2 | Wt: 304 | Sp: 5.24 | Arm: 32 1/2 | Hand: 10

Notes: Full name is LaShawn Maurkice Pouncey. Lined up alongside his twin brother, Michael, who played right guard for the Gators. Played at prep powerhouse Lakeland (Fla.), where he won three state titles. As a true freshman in 2007, started 11-of-13 games at right guard. Sprained his right ankle against both Tennessee and South Carolina, costing him starts against Mississippi and Florida Atlantic. Moved to center and started all 14 games for the national-champion Gators in '08. Missed spring practice while recovering from surgery to repair a torn labrum. Healthy in '09, won the Rimington Trophy after starting all 14 games and declared early, in part so his brother could move to center. Admitted to the hospital with kidney stones in the days leading up to the Sugar Bowl but played in the game. Chose not to bench-press or jump at the Combine.

Positives: Excellent size. Good snap-and-step quickness - rolls off the ball and plows running lanes. Natural bender - plays with a good base and balance and is seldom on the ground. Creates good positioning - can swing his hips around and seal defenders. Intense and competitive - plays though the echo of the whistle. Has an aggressive, nasty playing temperament and seeks to bury defenders. Drops anchor and can handle space eaters - held up against Alabama's Terrence Cody and Tennessee's Dan Williams. Good awareness in pass protection - feels threats and switches off blocks. Reaches the second level with ease and tees off on linebackers. Durable and battle-tested. Versatile skill set - could help at guard or tackle in a pinch. Is a well-respected line leader who can keep a huddle loose and command respect.

Negatives: Arms are shorter than desired. Can do a better job sustaining - overextends and slips off some blocks. Tends to play a bit upright and struggles to break down in space and connect with third-level defenders. Not an explosive athlete and is still growing into his body.

Summary: The best center to enter the draft in some time, Pouncey is a powerful, athletic, big-framed mauler who plays to his size and has proven his ability at the highest level of college football. Should be able to step in to a starting job immediately and play a long time in the league. Has Pro Bowl potential. Will be the first center drafted, and value could be enhanced by the lack of available talent at the position.

NFL projection: First-round pick.

meangene
03-20-2010, 08:11 AM
I used to subscribe to PFW and order their draft guide. Just not the same quality since Buschbaum passed away. He was one of a kind.

Mediator12
03-20-2010, 08:22 AM
I used to subscribe to PFW and order their draft guide. Just not the same quality since Buschbaum passed away. He was one of a kind.

I actually disagree with this. They do most of their own scouting now instead of buying it from others after Buschbaum passed. I think it struggled for years after he was gone, but recently, the past three years specifically, it has been the best printed analysis out there IMHO. The draft magazines these days are catered to the lowest common denominator unfortunately, but their final top 100 and 150 Lists are some of the most accurate from year to year.

meangene
03-20-2010, 08:37 AM
I actually disagree with this. They do most of their own scouting now instead of buying it from others after Buschbaum passed. I think it struggled for years after he was gone, but recently, the past three years specifically, it has been the best printed analysis out there IMHO. The draft magazines these days are catered to the lowest common denominator unfortunately, but their final top 100 and 150 Lists are some of the most accurate from year to year.

I think they are better than what they were at first after his passing but still not the same level. The guy was a one of a kind walking encyclopedia - the original draft guru. I can remember pictures of him in this room totally cluttered with tapes and his notes. Skinny, nerdy looking chain smoker. You can't beat the original. And I miss all his little personal anecdotes on players - stuff no one else had. Maybe I'm just nostalgic. Ha!

Durango
03-20-2010, 10:39 AM
some scouts think mcclain is not even a first rounder. think laurinitis, slipped because hes not a patrick willis, game changing MLB. neither is mcclain.

with spiller,s omething like 20 of his 50 TDs were OVER 50 yards long.

Completely, 100% disagree with this. McClain will be a force in the middle from day one his rookie season. You can coach technique, but you can't coach passion for the game and this guy has it a la Al Wilson, with an added 20 lbs and a couple inches of height. Exactly, precisely and absolutely what the Broncos need.

Mediator12
03-20-2010, 12:00 PM
Completely, 100% disagree with this. McClain will be a force in the middle from day one his rookie season. You can coach technique, but you can't coach passion for the game and this guy has it a la Al Wilson, with an added 20 lbs and a couple inches of height. Exactly, precisely and absolutely what the Broncos need.

There is no question he has a passion for the game and is a team leader. He has all the physical tools and some great production. The major question to me is how did he get that production?

The scheme Bama used was designed to go through him. In some instances, it actually makes it look like he is instinctive and reads keys well. The problem is there are enough cases where he does not get into the right position, take the right angle, overruns plays, and takes missteps even when everything should be super simple and easy for him to diagnose. That makes me question his instincts for the next level.

For a guy who Saban raves about being a second coach on the field, there are just too many instances where he is not instinctive and laying down the hammer for me.

Play2win
03-20-2010, 03:31 PM
Maybe McD can get the real scoop on McCain from SABAN.

anton
03-20-2010, 03:44 PM
I think the Broncos should go with Trent Williams at 11. A few weeks ago, someone on here said he should be the pick and I completely disagreed because of Clady/Harris... but Williams would be an amazing OG and have the versatility to play LT or RT when injuries occur.

He could go top 10 to a LT-needy team but I can't see him as a great LT so I think that would be a bad pick.

Sorry if this has already been said, I didnt read the 3 pages.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-20-2010, 04:48 PM
Bah, missed some good debate here. Was swamped in debate at the other site.


I agree with that Scouting report on Odrick Mediator, sounds about right. I was nodding my head throughout the entire thing. The positives and negatives. I've definitely seen both.

I think where maybe you and I have drawn the line with him is in regard to two things: 1) Positional value, and 2) His potential.

We've haven't really debated the positional value of a 5 tech, but you'd probably agree it's been skyrocketing as of late, along with the NT. More teams switching, hard to find the prototype, etc... We saw Tyson Jackson get overdrafted like hell last year because of it. I think we'll see both Dan Williams and Jared Odrick go extremely high this year too. I have Williams locked in to the Chiefs at #5, Odrick at #11 to us. Now, just because they aren't the best player available, does not mean they are a reach. Sometimes it is all about value, and if the positional value and rarity of a particular athlete dictates you must draft them before their skillset might suggest, than I see that as fair value, not reaching. Parcells stumbled onto this line of thinking a long time ago with his big man/universe theory, where you do whatever it takes to get the rare athlete that fits your scheme. I only see one 3 down NT with elite potential in this draft, Dan Williams. I only see one prototype 5 tech in this draft, Jared Odrick. I look at our D-line, and I'm still not impressed. We got some bandaids this offseason, which was good, but older guys, haven't excelled at starting. Lots of questions for sure. I like Alualu and Houston as potential 2nd round 5s, but I think we'll have to take Walton in the 2nd. Plus, Alualu, Houston, and even Jones are all smaller than ideal, they might just be Jarvis Green type-nickel rushers in the NFL. Hard to say. Real big fan of Alualu though.


Now, as for Odrick, his ability to knife and split double teams plays into our defense. We run a one-gap front, or we did under Nolan, so the fence post thing isn't that big of a concern with me as it would be if we were a pure two-gap front. Also, I see Bannan starting at LDE, but I see Green taking over Holliday's nickel role. I don't see a starter at RDE, I have little faith in Thomas, McBean, or Smith. Odrick fits in there perfectly for me, and I think his skillset would fit well with our scheme. Any maybe we force Green to start this year because Odrick is just a rookie, Green was bad as a starter last year, and when he entered Free Agency, he gave an interview where he said he doesn't want to start, and that he'd sign somewhere where he could play the role he feels he's best at (I assume that's the nickel role he excelled at early in his career). So, I really like Odrick for our defense. And I'm not sure Alualu, Houston, Jones, Geathers, Wilson, Neal, Peters, or anyone else even approaches his long term potential.



The Pouncey scouting report was eye-opening. He basically agreed with Mayock's contention that Pouncey is better than Mack with his statement this is the best OC to enter the draft in a long time. Shocking. I still think Mack was an unbelievable prospect. If Pouncey's truly better, than lets trade down but stay in front of Pittsburgh at #18 and snag him. (Lots of rumors about Pittsburgh and Pouncey). The thing is though, I have a LOT more conviction that JD Walton will be great than I do about any other DE or NT.


For the record, Dan Williams is my #1 Bronco prospect, I just don't think he will be there. Even if he gets past the Chiefs and Bills, Jacksonville wants to trade down and I think Miami will give them a 4th Rounder to leap us. So, with Williams out of the picture (in my mind), I'm focused on Odrick, Bryant, and Pouncey.

Do you have a preferred scenario or three?

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-20-2010, 04:55 PM
Completely, 100% disagree with this. McClain will be a force in the middle from day one his rookie season. You can coach technique, but you can't coach passion for the game and this guy has it a la Al Wilson, with an added 20 lbs and a couple inches of height. Exactly, precisely and absolutely what the Broncos need.



I don't think there is any way in hell we take McClain at #11. The reason is finances.

DJ Williams has a 35 million deal. The #11 Overall pick will get a 5 year, 27 million contract (2 million inflation from last season). Think about that. We'd have the highest paid ILB duo in the history of the NFL. And...we still have to lock up Dumervil for megabucks.

I don't care how good McClain could be, unless we cut/trade DJ Williams (and we just paid him a huge bonus), McClain isn't coming here, at least not at #11. Maybe we could trade down and take him in the 20s.

For comparison, Pittsburgh has Farrier at 5y, 18 mil and Timmons at 5y, 12 mil. The Jets have Harris at 4y, 3.4mil, and Scott at 6y, 40mil. Miami just signed Dansby for an NFL record contract, but they don't have any money in OLBs and Crowder is on a 13m deal.


I think it is fiscally impossible for us to draft an ILB at #11 Overall.


Plus, you also have the entire Mario Haggan/Josh McD lovefest, he cut a very solid Andra Davis so Haggan could start inside. Doubt he brings in McClain to sit him on the bench. We know Haggan isn't sitting.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-20-2010, 04:57 PM
I think the Broncos should go with Trent Williams at 11. A few weeks ago, someone on here said he should be the pick and I completely disagreed because of Clady/Harris... but Williams would be an amazing OG and have the versatility to play LT or RT when injuries occur.

He could go top 10 to a LT-needy team but I can't see him as a great LT so I think that would be a bad pick.

Sorry if this has already been said, I didnt read the 3 pages.


Williams is absolutely in play, hell he was great as an OC for Oklahoma. He can play everywhere. The problem is that at the Combine, he was pretty adament that he was a pure Left Tackle in the NFL. I'm not sure how motivated he would be if you tried to move him to a position he didn't want to play.

Mediator12
03-20-2010, 06:01 PM
Williams is absolutely in play, hell he was great as an OC for Oklahoma. He can play everywhere. The problem is that at the Combine, he was pretty adament that he was a pure Left Tackle in the NFL. I'm not sure how motivated he would be if you tried to move him to a position he didn't want to play.

Good thing the rookie Contract has no bearing on Position ;D

Williams is absolutely a solid value around 11. He is a Solid OL that can play multiple positions. He could start Right away at OG. The big Problem I have with him is he comes from a zone blocking scheme and we no longer run that one. If they get a guy that high, they need a road grader and Williams is not that. For the right team though, he would be a solid value there if he can concentrate on just one position.

meangene
03-20-2010, 06:19 PM
Good thing the rookie Contract has no bearing on Position ;D

Williams is absolutely a solid value around 11. He is a Solid OL that can play multiple positions. He could start Right away at OG. The big Problem I have with him is he comes from a zone blocking scheme and we no longer run that one. If they get a guy that high, they need a road grader and Williams is not that. For the right team though, he would be a solid value there if he can concentrate on just one position.

That, and he'll be gone by #11. If one of the top tackles slides to us I think it would most likely be Davis. If you are going to go OL with the pick why not just take Iupati and play him at his natural LG position?

anton
03-20-2010, 07:50 PM
If Anthony Davis falls out of the top 10, I will lose any faith I have left in NFL scouts. Dude is going to be an amazing LT, way better than Bulaga and Williams. Sure he hasnt had the offseason they had but his film is much better (95% of it is, he has slight struggles early in games sometimes).

Iupati at 11 would be solid but his holding/grabbing is a big concern.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-20-2010, 08:12 PM
If Anthony Davis falls out of the top 10, I will lose any faith I have left in NFL scouts. Dude is going to be an amazing LT, way better than Bulaga and Williams. Sure he hasnt had the offseason they had but his film is much better (95% of it is, he has slight struggles early in games sometimes).

Iupati at 11 would be solid but his holding/grabbing is a big concern.


You're much higher on Davis than I am. At the beginning of the college season, he was my #1 OT. And then he was terrible the first half of the year and I gave up on him. He turned it on a bit late, but he still had a rough year on film.

His offseason has been Andre Smith-ish. He's had concerns about his passion for the game for forever. He hasn't really answered them with how he's acted as of late.

I think he falls into the 20s. He's talented for sure, but he's very boom or bust, and we don't know how dedicated he is to football. I think Okung is clearly ahead of the pack, Bulaga and Williams are somewhere in the next mix, and then it's Davis, Saffold, Campbell, and Brown, the order varying for every team.

I think a team like Dallas or Arizona would stop his freefall. Or maybe you're right and a team higher just loves him and takes him warts and all. It happened with Andre Smith, definitely could happen with Davis.

s0phr0syne
03-20-2010, 08:20 PM
If Anthony Davis falls out of the top 10, I will lose any faith I have left in NFL scouts. Dude is going to be an amazing LT, way better than Bulaga and Williams. Sure he hasnt had the offseason they had but his film is much better (95% of it is, he has slight struggles early in games sometimes).

Iupati at 11 would be solid but his holding/grabbing is a big concern.



To echo the other response a bit, a fall by Davis wouldn't really be an indictment of the assessment of Davis as a player. His fall is due to character/personality concerns, which really have nothing to do with how good a player he is, but rather how good of a pro he will be. As a steady follower of the draft process every year, I know that you've seen multiple players ruin their careers not by what they do on the field, but rather what happens off of it. While Davis hasn't been arrested or anything, his unwillingness to really do any of the workouts or weigh-ins is definitely a red flag at this time of the year.

Durango
03-20-2010, 09:42 PM
I don't think there is any way in hell we take McClain at #11. The reason is finances.

DJ Williams has a 35 million deal. The #11 Overall pick will get a 5 year, 27 million contract (2 million inflation from last season). Think about that. We'd have the highest paid ILB duo in the history of the NFL. And...we still have to lock up Dumervil for megabucks.

I don't care how good McClain could be, unless we cut/trade DJ Williams (and we just paid him a huge bonus), McClain isn't coming here, at least not at #11. Maybe we could trade down and take him in the 20s.

For comparison, Pittsburgh has Farrier at 5y, 18 mil and Timmons at 5y, 12 mil. The Jets have Harris at 4y, 3.4mil, and Scott at 6y, 40mil. Miami just signed Dansby for an NFL record contract, but they don't have any money in OLBs and Crowder is on a 13m deal.


I think it is fiscally impossible for us to draft an ILB at #11 Overall.


Plus, you also have the entire Mario Haggan/Josh McD lovefest, he cut a very solid Andra Davis so Haggan could start inside. Doubt he brings in McClain to sit him on the bench. We know Haggan isn't sitting.


You make a good point on finances. I wasn't thinking in those terms at all, and of course, I certainly won't argue the fact that McDaniels has his pet favorites, especially guys he decided should be on the roster like Haggan.

It's a pity in my opinion, because, added to a Dumerville and Williams, this kid could become a dominating force from the inside.

I suppose the talk on the main board that the Broncos might take a freaking RB fits right in with my contempt of this coach, especially with a guy like Toby Gerhart probably available in the late second or even early third and serious needs remaining at guard and DE.

Oh well, another draft, another wtf.

NFLBRONCO
03-20-2010, 09:53 PM
You think Dan Williams is a natural NT?

Mat'hir Uth Gan
03-21-2010, 04:40 AM
You think Dan Williams is a natural NT?


Not sure if this is aimed at me or not, but I'll give my opinion.

First, I'm not really sure what you mean by "natural". Do I think the skills that are required to hunker down and play Nose Tackle come naturally to Williams, than yes, I do. Do I think he has the natural body structure to succeed in this role, yes. He has the thick trunk and massive base required of the best NTs, he's also not too tall to where leverage can be an issue. He has the perfect natural build for the position.

Nose Tackle doesn't really strike me as that hard of a position to learn. You just need to have the rare body type that excels at that position and the work ethic to live in the weight room so you can handle the physical rigors of the position. Williams definitely has the body type, by all accounts he's a leader with a solid work ethic, and he's in great shape for a man his size. I see nothing that gives me any doubt about him as a Nose Tackle.