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Dedhed
03-09-2010, 07:52 PM
i know, i hate it when people can say whatever they want
I love it when utter tools can showcase their wares to the general public as well. :thumbsup:

You really are a winner like we haven't seen around here in awhile. Post on brother, post on.

TonyR
03-09-2010, 08:15 PM
Pats fans think we got a bad deal here.

Be careful with sour grapes opinions. Did we "overpay"? Yes, probably. But that's what FA is all about, you overpay to fill holes that you can't fill with talent you developed yoursefl. But it's not my money so I'm not too worried about it. And keep in mind that the Pats wanted Green back for less money, just as the Chargers wanted Williams back. We paid more than their previous teams were willing to pay. They probably made better longer term business decisions, we probably made better shorter term football decisions.

Drek
03-09-2010, 08:16 PM
Pats fans think we got a bad deal here. I think we made a mistake. Marques Douglas would have been a better pick up. Green isn't that great against the run. Douglas is much better at stopping the run the Green is. Holliday is a better pass rusher. Both Green and Holliday play on the right side and I don't think we have the room for both Green and Holliday. Anyways Pats fans don't have a lot of positive things to say about Green other then he is a good back-up. We paid him starter money. Obviously I think Green is better then what we had last year but I still don't think the move is as great as everyone is making it out to be. The Williams and Bannan signings are much better then this move.
Pats fans opinions....
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/327159-jarvis-green-signed-broncos-merged-page2.html
You are either delusional or have serious issues with reading comprehension.

I saw a bunch of pats fans downplaying a valuable rotational guy moving on, and the primary excuse was that he wasn't a good starter.

Didn't see anyone saying he wasn't a good backup.

Jarvis Green is a good DE or nickel down NT in rotation. If you ask him to start and play the majority of snaps he'll wear down and not produce. On a team where he can share snaps with Bannan, McBean, etc. and step in on passing downs at NT he can be kept fairly fresh and get back to the productivity he had in '06 and '07.

The MVPlaya
03-09-2010, 08:23 PM
DBroncos4life must have not watched many Broncos games last year - or else he'd know that Holliday lined up both on the right and left side.

DBroncos4life
03-09-2010, 08:33 PM
You are either delusional or have serious issues with reading comprehension.

I saw a bunch of pats fans downplaying a valuable rotational guy moving on, and the primary excuse was that he wasn't a good starter.

Didn't see anyone saying he wasn't a good backup.

Jarvis Green is a good DE or nickel down NT in rotation. If you ask him to start and play the majority of snaps he'll wear down and not produce. On a team where he can share snaps with Bannan, McBean, etc. and step in on passing downs at NT he can be kept fairly fresh and get back to the productivity he had in '06 and '07.

Pats fans think we got a bad deal here. I think we made a mistake. Marques Douglas would have been a better pick up. Green isn't that great against the run. Douglas is much better at stopping the run the Green is. Holliday is a better pass rusher. Both Green and Holliday play on the right side and I don't think we have the room for both Green and Holliday. Anyways Pats fans don't have a lot of positive things to say about Green other then he is a good back-up. We paid him starter money. Obviously I think Green is better then what we had last year but I still don't think the move is as great as everyone is making it out to be. The Williams and Bannan signings are much better then this move.
Pats fans opinions....
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/327159-jarvis-green-signed-broncos-merged-page2.html

Speaking of issues with reading comprehension....what does that line in bold say from what I wrote?

DBroncos4life
03-09-2010, 08:39 PM
Be careful with sour grapes opinions. Did we "overpay"? Yes, probably. But that's what FA is all about, you overpay to fill holes that you can't fill with talent you developed yoursefl. But it's not my money so I'm not too worried about it. And keep in mind that the Pats wanted Green back for less money, just as the Chargers wanted Williams back. We paid more than their previous teams were willing to pay. They probably made better longer term business decisions, we probably made better shorter term football decisions.

FA is about overpaying? I guess Mike Shanahan really never did make a mistake ever. ;D Like I said the Williams and Bannan deals are fine, this move on the other hand isn't that great. I already said I believe Green is better then what we had last year as well. Some of you guys just get all bent out of shape if anyone dares has a opinion about a move that is closer to the negative side. Heaven forbid I think there are players out there better then Green.

UberBroncoMan
03-09-2010, 08:45 PM
FA is about overpaying? I guess Mike Shanahan really never did make a mistake ever. ;D Like I said the Williams and Bannan deals are fine, this move on the other hand isn't that great. I already said I believe Green is better then what we had last year as well. Some of you guys just get all bent out of shape if anyone dares has a opinion about a move that is closer to the negative side. Heaven forbid I think there are players out there better then Green.

Personally I think the younger Dwan Edwards would have been a better signing than Green, but these are the breaks. Green was #2 on the the list for available DE's for me behind Edwards.

broncswin
03-09-2010, 08:50 PM
I agree Uber..I think we settled a little...but I am still happy with this..this guy will be a great role player with us, if we don't wear him down

DBroncos4life
03-09-2010, 08:54 PM
Personally I think the younger Dwan Edwards would have been a better signing than Green, but these are the breaks. Green was #2 on the the list for available DE's for me behind Edwards.
Be careful what you say here. Ha! My issue is exactly what Pats fans talked about lot of money for a guy that more often then not was a back up who played well at times. I clearly never said the guy flat out sucked nor bashed the FO for the move. Besides Edwards I would have had Marques Douglas before Green. Douglas has a long history of being good against the run.

baja
03-09-2010, 09:27 PM
You are either delusional or have serious issues with reading comprehension.

I saw a bunch of pats fans downplaying a valuable rotational guy moving on, and the primary excuse was that he wasn't a good starter.

Didn't see anyone saying he wasn't a good backup.

Jarvis Green is a good DE or nickel down NT in rotation. If you ask him to start and play the majority of snaps he'll wear down and not produce. On a team where he can share snaps with Bannan, McBean, etc. and step in on passing downs at NT he can be kept fairly fresh and get back to the productivity he had in '06 and '07.

Ya know it's pretty clear what Josh's plan is, he wants good (not great) football players but he want's them everywhere and he wants them to be versatile because he knows 20 football games are a lot and he is going to lose some guys.

I love it and we are going to be a winning team for a long time.

strafen
03-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Via post_broncos twitter. Link coming...

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14641053?source=rssSo this makes him the 10th former New England Patriot player to join the Broncos since McDaniels took over...

Florida_Bronco
03-09-2010, 10:32 PM
So this makes him the 10th former New England Patriot player to join the Broncos since McDaniels took over...

Correct.

BroncoInferno
03-09-2010, 10:34 PM
So this makes him the 10th former New England Patriot player to join the Broncos since McDaniels took over...

Gol dang, I bet that just chaps your hide, don't it?

Requiem
03-09-2010, 10:36 PM
Check out ProFootballFocus.com and look at Green's metrics. He clearly gets worn down if he is asked to play more than 50% of the snaps in a game. He did not do well this year or in 2007, and was ineffective by doing so. He is getting paid a lot of guap to perform here, and I hope he does, but his track record the past several years indicates that he is at best a nickel package guy and platoon man.

Dagmar
03-09-2010, 10:39 PM
So this makes him the 10th former New England Patriot player to join the Broncos since McDaniels took over...

Aaand?

strafen
03-09-2010, 10:41 PM
Gol dang, I bet that just chaps your hide, don't it?Little by little, we're cleaning up their scrubs :thumbs:
He seems to be building his team to mold New England's system.
I thought McD was going to build his own team, not someone else's team.
Does it make sense to you?

Florida_Bronco
03-09-2010, 10:44 PM
Little by little, we're cleaning up their scrubs :thumbs:

I'd say we've done pretty good with the former Pats, wouldn't you?

strafen
03-09-2010, 10:46 PM
I'd say we've done pretty good with the former Pats, wouldn't you?I'm not saying we're or we're not (8-8)
I just gave the guy a sarcastic response to his dumb assumption that I was mentioning that fact as an attack to his God...

Mediator12
03-09-2010, 10:51 PM
Little by little, we're cleaning up their scrubs :thumbs:
He seems to be building his team to mold New England's system.
I thought McD was going to build his own team, not someone else's team.
Does it make sense to you?

Yes, in the World of the NFL, it makes total sense to go get players you know and know how you want to play in the short term. It is one of the proven ways to rebuild a team switching schemes. None of these guys are long term solutions or superstars. However, teams need veteran role players and these guys already know the system and the expectations. That is more than half the battle in FA.

As per the scrubs comment, it think that is not accurate. NFL teams lose players they want to keep all the time for all kinds of reasons. Just because they leave NE does not make them scrubs. It makes them role players from a team of role players. Most good teams and all the great teams have a bunch of players like this on their roster.

outdoor_miner
03-09-2010, 11:21 PM
First - it seems that Dwan Edward's back must be an issue... I've seen quite a bit of speculation on that topic.

Second - these signings make me realize how depleted Denver's talent pool has become. How long has it been since teams were scrambling to sign some Denver backup that we could no longer afford? Or - a guy we were letting go because we had a talented young guy waiting to take his place? Maybe I'm forgetting, but Denver players never seem to be hot commodities... Who was the last one? Trevor Price? Foxworth landed in Baltimore for a pretty hefty contract, but that was only after he played in Atlanta for a year... Am I missing anyone?

The MVPlaya
03-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Little by little, we're cleaning up their scrubs :thumbs:
He seems to be building his team to mold New England's system.
I thought McD was going to build his own team, not someone else's team.
Does it make sense to you?

NO WAY, coaches getting players they're familiar with? NO WAY...

Why in the hell did we run our offensive scheme last year? It's the same one NE runs, Josh is an idiot.

Have you seen all the Broncos players that have visited Seattle? What bout the ones Shanny picked up?

So Lonnie Paxton, Jarvis Green, Gaffney, Hochstein all of a sudden makes us the Patriots.

Ok lol

Rex Ryan getting ex-ravens? You'd think he'd want his own team! Hilarious!

The MVPlaya
03-09-2010, 11:23 PM
First - it seems that Dwan Edward's back must be an issue... I've seen quite a bit of speculation on that topic.

Second - these signings make me realize how depleted Denver's talent pool has become. How long has it been since teams were scrambling to sign some Denver backup that we could no longer afford? Or - a guy we were letting go because we had a talented young guy waiting to take his place? Maybe I'm forgetting, but Denver players never seem to be hot commodities... Who was the last one? Trevor Price? Foxworth landed in Baltimore for a pretty hefty contract, but that was only after he played in Atlanta for a year... Am I missing anyone?

Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall

outdoor_miner
03-09-2010, 11:25 PM
Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall

Those are super-duper stars. I'm talking depth/role players. The Bannan's and Green's and Edward's of the world... I dunno, maybe I'm dumb. :)

The MVPlaya
03-09-2010, 11:30 PM
Those are super-duper stars. I'm talking depth/role players. The Bannan's and Green's and Edward's of the world... I dunno, maybe I'm dumb. :)

You have a point - we've had so many draft **** ups since the Jay Cutler draft. DJ Williams is probably our last guy we've drafted before all this...all those years we've overloaded with dlineman in the draft aka Crowder and Moss and the drafts we've overloaded with CB's aka Darrent Williams kind of all went down the drain, we rarely found solid guys in the late rounds... probaly some players I'm missing.

Karl Paymah - there you go lol

strafen
03-09-2010, 11:33 PM
NO WAY, coaches getting players they're familiar with? NO WAY...

Why in the hell did we run our offensive scheme last year? It's the same one NE runs, Josh is an idiot.

Have you seen all the Broncos players that have visited Seattle? What bout the ones Shanny picked up?

So Lonnie Paxton, Jarvis Green, Gaffney, Hochstein all of a sudden makes us the Patriots.

Ok lol

Rex Ryan getting ex-ravens? You'd think he'd want his own team! Hilarious!

WTF is wrong with you, dude?

Blueflame
03-09-2010, 11:44 PM
I'd say we've done pretty good with the former Pats, wouldn't you?

Especially LaMont Jordan.

Dagmar
03-09-2010, 11:45 PM
WTF is wrong with you, dude?

WTF is wrong with you, dude.

Oh, you are a wank.

Forgot.

Just for a second.

Archer81
03-09-2010, 11:49 PM
WTF is wrong with you, dude?


http://tinyurl.com/ojazwg


:Broncos:

strafen
03-10-2010, 12:01 AM
Especially LaMont Jordan.8-8 is great!

Hey, why even dare to question McDaniels wisdom, huh?
The guy can't do any wrong.
If he's doing it, it must be a beautiful thing. We just have wait until the master plans takes effect this season. His second year with the system, ya' know?
He's got all of his soldiers here ready to attack at the slight sign of a negative word towards their cult leader.

I figure if we get another 12 New England players that we would then have all of their back-ups as our star players on our team.
Now, that's just too funny right there! ROFL!

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 12:05 AM
8-8 is great!

Hey, why even dare to question McDaniels wisdom, huh?
The guy can't do any wrong.
If he's doing it, it must be a beautiful thing. We just have wait until the master plans takes effect this season. His second year with the system, ya' know?
He's got all of his soldiers here ready to attack at the slight sign of a negative word towards their cult leader.

I figure if we get another 12 New England players that we would then have all of their back-ups as our star players on our team.
Now, that's just too funny right there! ROFL!

I also dunno how we'd have managed to get by without Ty Law's 9 tackles, 1 assist, 1 pass defensed, and single interception for 37 yards....

But yeah. All of those former Patriots are working out well. ::)

The MVPlaya
03-10-2010, 12:07 AM
8-8 is great!

Hey, why even dare to question McDaniels wisdom, huh?
The guy can't do any wrong.
If he's doing it, it must be a beautiful thing. We just have wait until the master plans takes effect this season. His second year with the system, ya' know?
He's got all of his soldiers here ready to attack at the slight sign of a negative word towards their cult leader.

I figure if we get another 12 New England players that we would then have all of their back-ups as our star players on our team.
Now, that's just too funny right there! ROFL!

I thought no one wanted to play with Josh McDaniels - he's a tyrant.

strafen
03-10-2010, 12:13 AM
I thought no one wanted to play with Josh McDaniels - he's a tyrant.Exactly, that's why he can only get players from New England, duh?! :rofl:

DBroncos4life
03-10-2010, 12:34 AM
Check out ProFootballFocus.com and look at Green's metrics. He clearly gets worn down if he is asked to play more than 50% of the snaps in a game. He did not do well this year or in 2007, and was ineffective by doing so. He is getting paid a lot of guap to perform here, and I hope he does, but his track record the past several years indicates that he is at best a nickel package guy and platoon man.

Yep. You can also see that he hasn't been all that effective vs the run during the last three years from that site. Vonnie Holliday has been a more effective player over the last three seasons vs both the pass and rush then Green. We didn't pay him starter money to come in and be a situational player. I just think we got this move wrong because we over paid for Green. I think the combo of Vonnie Holliday and Marques Douglas would have been cheaper and more effective. By the way the Pats are rumored to be after Douglas to replace Green.

Florida_Bronco
03-10-2010, 12:36 AM
I also dunno how we'd have managed to get by without Ty Law's 9 tackles, 1 assist, 1 pass defensed, and single interception for 37 yards....

But yeah. All of those former Patriots are working out well. ::)

What gripes could you possibly have about them?

Jordan - Alternated between 3rd and 4th on the depth chart. Obviously not going to see much time there, but gave us a late game relief option.

Law - Gave us some veteran stability in the nickel with Smith's injury and subpar play. Played well in this role.

Hochstein - Quality player who started 10 games for us and saved our bacon when it became clear Hamilton was done.

Gaffney - Our second best receiver behind Marshall.

Paxton - Slight upgrade at long snapper.

Gorin - Clady's backup. Obviously not going to get much time there.

Smith - Rotation player at DE

I'm not seeing anything there to be unhappy with really.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 12:44 AM
What gripes could you possibly have about them?

Jordan - Sucked so much he was inactivated most of the season and was one of the first offseason cuts.

Law - Over the hill... should have retired.

Hochstein - Who?

Gaffney - A mediocre-at-best WR.

Paxton - More expensive long snapper.

Gorin - Who?

Smith - Who?

I'm not seeing anything there to be unhappy with really.

Fixed for you.

Can't imagine how the Pro Bowl voters overlooked 'em all.

DBroncos4life
03-10-2010, 12:52 AM
What gripes could you possibly have about them?

Jordan - Alternated between 3rd and 4th on the depth chart. Obviously not going to see much time there, but gave us a late game relief option.
Worthless role anyone could have sat on the bench for 90% of games
Law - Gave us some veteran stability in the nickel with Smith's injury and subpar play. Played well in this role.
Flat out lie. He was lost from the start in this role. His good play was few far and between
Hochstein - Quality player who started 10 games for us and saved our bacon when it became clear Hamilton was done.
No problems with him at all. Good move
Gaffney - Our second best receiver behind Marshall.
Another good pick up
Paxton - Slight upgrade at long snapper.
Got paid a lot to be a slight upgrade...not that our former long snapper ever made a mistake so why make the move.
Gorin - Clady's backup. Obviously not going to get much time there.
Don't care
Smith - Rotation player at DE
Not sure he was really worth the trade though
I'm not seeing anything there to be unhappy with really.

Gaffney was by far the best out of any of them. I don't see how our record would have been any different without those guys though.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 12:58 AM
Gaffney was by far the best out of any of them. I don't see how our record would have been any different without those guys though.

And Gaffney had what? One good game? ???

Florida_Bronco
03-10-2010, 12:59 AM
See, this is why it's pointless to debate with you. You're so blinded by your hate of anything Patriots that you can't even get a half objective view of these players. Let's try again.

Jordan - I guess you can claim he sucks all you want, but really what do you want out of a guy who spent time at 3rd or 4th on the depth chart when we had two very effective running backs ahead of him? Jordan did the job he was hired to do.

Law - Sure, he's past his prime, but even as recently as a couple years ago he was still a serviceable #2 corner, so I think he can handle the nickel corner role for us.

Quick! Name a bad play he made all year.

Hochstein - You're joking, right? He started 10 of the 15 games he played in for us. if you have to ask "who" then you must have slept through the season.

Gaffney - Not quite. He's a slightly above average #2 and a great #3. You also have to take into consideration his versatility (he can play any of the receiver positions) and his locker room presence. No question he earned his keep and then some last year.

Paxton - So what if he was more expensive? It wasn't a bank breaking deal (all of $1 million wasn't it?) and it's not our money anyways.

Gorin - That would be Brandon Gorin, former starter for the Rams and Patriots. Again, he was Clady's backup so he saw very limited snaps.

Smith - LeKevin Smith, former Patriot defensive linemen who was in our D-line rotation all year.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 01:20 AM
See, this is why it's pointless to debate with you. You're so blinded by your hate of anything Patriots that you can't even get a half objective view of these players. Let's try again.

Jordan - I guess you can claim he sucks all you want, but really what do you want out of a guy who spent time at 3rd or 4th on the depth chart when we had two very effective running backs ahead of him? Jordan did the job he was hired to do.

Law - Sure, he's past his prime, but even as recently as a couple years ago he was still a serviceable #2 corner, so I think he can handle the nickel corner role for us.

Quick! Name a bad play he made all year.

Hochstein - You're joking, right? He started 10 of the 15 games he played in for us. if you have to ask "who" then you must have slept through the season.

Gaffney - Not quite. He's a slightly above average #2 and a great #3. You also have to take into consideration his versatility (he can play any of the receiver positions) and his locker room presence. No question he earned his keep and then some last year.

Paxton - So what if he was more expensive? It wasn't a bank breaking deal (all of $1 million wasn't it?) and it's not our money anyways.

Gorin - That would be Brandon Gorin, former starter for the Rams and Patriots. Again, he was Clady's backup so he saw very limited snaps.

Smith - LeKevin Smith, former Patriot defensive linemen who was in our D-line rotation all year.

And it's equally pointless to debate anything with you because of your blind faith in Josh McDaniels... you're not one scintilla more "objective" than I am. (pot, meet kettle).

Again. Jordan's position on the depth chart (3rd or 4th) was because he sucks. If he didn't, he'd be higher. Right? Thought so.

And you apparently agree that Law should have retired 2 years ago... if that's how recently he was "serviceable" as a #2 corner...

Guess Hochstein just might have been a part of that O-line (depth) that McDaniels blamed for the lack of RB production...

Gaffney is not "above average" as a #2... get real. 54 receptions for 732 yards and a meager 2 touchdowns... yeah right.

The Bronco (Mike Leach) that we had was serviceable.

Gorin? So? Your point is? He wasn't on the field; made no impact.

Oh! My bad. LeKevin Smith was "in our D-line rotation"... big whoop. He played in 7 games, had 9 tackles, one assist, one defensed pass and a single sack. Call the HOF.

Florida_Bronco
03-10-2010, 01:46 AM
And it's equally pointless to debate anything with you because of your blind faith in Josh McDaniels... you're not one scintilla more "objective" than I am. (pot, meet kettle). You keep telling yourself that all you want, but I'm not the one who arbitrarily hates players or coaches based on some silly little grudge I have for a team they suited up for in the past.

Again. Jordan's position on the depth chart (3rd or 4th) was because he sucks. If he didn't, he'd be higher. Right? Thought so. You do realize that in this league you need 3rd and 4th string running backs, right? Were you paying attention in 2008 when we were literally signing guys off the street because we had completely depleted our roster of anyone who could run the ball.

Saying "he's 3rd/4th because he sucks" is about as big of a "No ****, Sherlock" statement you can make. Still, you need those guys on your roster, and that's what we brought Jordan here for, and it's a job he did well.

And you apparently agree that Law should have retired 2 years ago... if that's how recently he was "serviceable" as a #2 corner... But we didn't sign him to be a #2 corner. We signed him to be the #3 and as such, a much lesser role. I also like how you wouldn't (more likely couldn't) name a bad play Law made over the course of the year.

Guess Hochstein just might have been a part of that O-line (depth) that McDaniels blamed for the lack of RB production... I'm sure we'll upgrade there. Hochstein is a decent starter and very versatile, but he's not a guy you want starting for you on a regular basis. Still, he saved our ass with Ben Hamilton's play going down the crapper.

Gaffney is not "above average" as a #2... get real. 54 receptions for 732 yards and a meager 2 touchdowns... yeah right. Blue, you do realize that Gaffney was NOT our #2 last year. He was our #3 behind Marshall and Royal and even then he lost some snaps to sharing that spot with Stokley.

The two games where he was our #2 and then #1 receiver, he totaled 21 catches for 282 yards and 2 touchdowns.

The Bronco (Mike Leach) that we had was serviceable. And we replaced him with one of the top 2 or 3 long snappers in the game.

Gorin? So? Your point is? He wasn't on the field; made no impact. Yes, because he was backing up our two time All-Pro left tackle. God forbid we be put in a situation where he was needed, how many other teams could replace their left tackle with a guy who was a starter on two Super Bowl teams.

Oh! My bad. LeKevin Smith was "in our D-line rotation"... big whoop. He played in 7 games, had 9 tackles, one assist, one defensed pass and a single sack. Call the HOF. I'd say his play was about right for a guy we traded a 7th round pick for.

Talking to you, someone would think that teams should only carries their 22 starters and a kicker and punter. After all, all those backup players are worthless and no team needs them, they just pay them for the hell of it. ::)

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 02:15 AM
You keep telling yourself that all you want, but I'm not the one who arbitrarily hates players or coaches based on some silly little grudge I have for a team they suited up for in the past.

No... you're the one who says if Josh McDaniels wants a player, that player is automatically "worth signing/a good value".

You do realize that in this league you need 3rd and 4th string running backs, right? Were you paying attention in 2008 when we were literally signing guys off the street because we had completely depleted our roster of anyone who could run the ball.
Normal NFL seasons don't usually require resorting to the 8th string RB (because 7 are on IR). That was an unusual number of injuries at a single position.

Saying "he's 3rd/4th because he sucks" is about as big of a "No ****, Sherlock" statement you can make. Still, you need those guys on your roster, and that's what we brought Jordan here for, and it's a job he did well.
If he "did that job well" then why was he one of the first offseason cuts? ???

But we didn't sign him to be a #2 corner. We signed him to be the #3 and as such, a much lesser role. I also like how you wouldn't (more likely couldn't) name a bad play Law made over the course of the year.
Um... it would be tougher to cite a "really good" play Law made other than the single interception. Oh... other than supposedly "scaring/intimidating" the twice-his-size Brandon Marshall.

I'm sure we'll upgrade there. Hochstein is a decent starter and very versatile, but he's not a guy you want starting for you on a regular basis. Still, he saved our ass with Ben Hamilton's play going down the crapper.
If Hochstein was a "decent starter" then he'd be starting. He isn't. End of story. And again, your hero blamed that O-line he was on... for the lack of success with the running game.

Blue, you do realize that Gaffney was NOT our #2 last year. He was our #3 behind Marshall and Royal and even then he lost some snaps to sharing that spot with Stokley.
I wasn't the one who claimed he was an "above average" #2 WR. I know that his only good game happened when Royal and Marshall were both sidelined.

The two games where he was our #2 and then #1 receiver, he totaled 21 catches for 282 yards and 2 touchdowns.
So both touchdowns happened when better WRs were out of the game.

And we replaced him with one of the top 2 or 3 long snappers in the game.
"I" believe Leach was at least equal if not a better long-snapper. But your mileage may vary. (My nose ain't up Belicheat's ... sneaker).

Yes, because he was backing up our two time All-Pro left tackle. God forbid we be put in a situation where he was needed, how many other teams could replace their left tackle with a guy who was a starter on two Super Bowl teams.

I'd say his play was about right for a guy we traded a 7th round pick for.

LOL

Talking to you, someone would think that teams should only carries their 22 starters and a kicker and punter. After all, all those backup players are worthless and no team needs them, they just pay them for the hell of it. ::)

Loading up with "past-their-prime" or marginal players... for no other reason than that they used to play for "fill-in-the-blank" team... might not be the wisest decision.

Br0nc0Buster
03-10-2010, 02:31 AM
seriously dont dog on Gaffney the guy was great for us last year

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 02:33 AM
seriously dont dog on Gaffney the guy was great for us last year

In the season-ending loss.

Florida_Bronco
03-10-2010, 02:34 AM
Normal NFL seasons don't usually require resorting to the 8th string RB (because 7 are on IR). That was an unusual number of injuries at a single position. That's true, but that doesn't change the fact that you need 3 or 4 capable running backs on your roster. Hell, in this day of RBBC, you really need two starter level running backs.

If he "did that job well" then why was he one of the first offseason cuts? ??? My guess? Hillis. Younger, cheaper, more upside and hopefully he's now mentally capable of getting playing time.

Um... it would be tougher to cite a "really good" play Law made other than the single interception. Oh... other than supposedly "scaring/intimidating" the twice-his-size Brandon Marshall. Way to avoid the question. I'll just assume you're coming up empty handed again.

If Hochstein was a "decent starter" then he'd be starting. He isn't. End of story. And again, your hero blamed that O-line he was on... for the lack of success with the running game. We really need a facepalm icon for posts like this.

Hochstein started 10 of 15 games last year. Are you reading that? He took Ben Hamilton's job from him. Now does that mean we don't try to upgrade? Hell no. Drek talked about this here awhile back. You're ALWAYS trying to make upgrades with the exceptions of positions where you have elite talent.

Not that hard to understand, Blue.

I wasn't the one who claimed he was an "above average" #2 WR. I know that his only good game happened when Royal and Marshall were both sidelined.


So both touchdowns happened when better WRs were out of the game. Gaffney played well all season, and when he was thrust into the starting role he responded with another two very good performances.

"I" believe Leach was at least equal if not a better long-snapper. But your mileage may vary. (My nose ain't up Belicheat's ... sneaker). That's fine. You can believe what you want but you're not an NFL scout or coach and if you took a poll an overwhelming majority would almost certainly take Paxton. That's not a knock on Leach as he is a very good long snapper in his own right, but Paxton is a top tier talent.

Loading up with "past-their-prime" or marginal players... for no other reason than that they used to play for "fill-in-the-blank" team... might not be the wisest decision. Yet it's the same approach that worked for Shanahan, Belichick, Cowher and a whole host of other coaches.

This is how successful NFL teams are built.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 02:53 AM
That's true, but that doesn't change the fact that you need 3 or 4 capable running backs on your roster. Hell, in this day of RBBC, you really need two starter level running backs.
Keywords: "starter level". Jordan isn't.

My guess? Hillis. Younger, cheaper, more upside and hopefully he's now mentally capable of getting playing time.
My guess? Jordan sucks.

Way to avoid the question. I'll just assume you're coming up empty handed again.
Whatever. I'm not the one who has to try to justify giving a roster slot to a washed-up player with that kind of pathetic numbers.

We really need a facepalm icon for posts like this.

Hochstein started 10 of 15 games last year. Are you reading that? He took Ben Hamilton's job from him. Now does that mean we don't try to upgrade? Hell no. Drek talked about this here awhile back. You're ALWAYS trying to make upgrades with the exceptions of positions where you have elite talent.

Not that hard to understand, Blue.
Did McDaniels... or did he not... blame the lack of RB success on the O-line?

Gaffney played well all season, and when he was thrust into the starting role he responded with another two very good performances.
Gaffney is a mediocre 3rd string WR. I'm not the one who claimed he was an "above average #2"...

That's fine. You can believe what you want but you're not an NFL scout or coach and if you took a poll an overwhelming majority would almost certainly take Paxton. That's not a knock on Leach as he is a very good long snapper in his own right, but Paxton is a top tier talent.

Gary Kubiak didn't agree with you or McDaniels.

Yet it's the same approach that worked for Shanahan, Belichick, Cowher and a whole host of other coaches.

This is how successful NFL teams are built.

Guess if bringing in "past-their-prime" retreads is "how successful NFL teams are built", we really should have kept Jerry Rice back in preseason '05. Surely... because he used to be stellar with the 9'ers and was a future HOF'er, that should have trumped guys like Rod Smith. Oh, and Shanahan , Belicheat, and Cowher have all had more than their fair share of free agent blunders....

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 03:17 AM
Look, FB... where we're disagreeing is that I do not think every former Patriot FA McDaniels signed was "a good value". While I only snipe at a couple of his choices (Jordan & Paxton), it's fair to say I think McDaniels has made mistakes. You apparently believe he's incapable of making mistakes... and that's OK. It's also OK for me to think you're wrong.

worm
03-10-2010, 03:50 AM
Personally, I think ya'll are on the verge of seeing eye-to-eye on this topic.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 04:28 AM
Personally, I think ya'll are on the verge of seeing eye-to-eye on this topic.

Hilarious! :rofl: ROFL! :spit:

Drek
03-10-2010, 04:34 AM
Fixed for you.

Can't imagine how the Pro Bowl voters overlooked 'em all.

So every FA needs to be in contention for a pro bowl nom? No room for role players huh, don't sign anyone who isn't going to be an elite player?

Look, FB... where we're disagreeing is that I do not think every former Patriot FA McDaniels signed was "a good value". While I only snipe at a couple of his choices (Jordan & Paxton), it's fair to say I think McDaniels has made mistakes. You apparently believe he's incapable of making mistakes... and that's OK. It's also OK for me to think you're wrong.

Awesome, he's made mistakes. Point them out.

Where is the guy he's signed to a big contract and put in a large role that the guy failed in.

Of all the Pats FAs he's brought in to this point Gaffney had the largest role. Not a very big contract and I'd say he performed quite well all season, especially when he was originally signed and brought here to be a rotational 4th WR spelling Marshall, Stokley, and Royal since he knew all three WR roles from extended time in NE. Came here to be a rotational depth guy, ended up being our #2 WR. Wow, what a monumental **** up of an acquisition that was.

The biggest mistake McDaniels made last off-season was keeping too many Shanahan guys around to begin with. I can think of a several more guys he should've cleared out and replaced last off-season.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 05:29 AM
So every FA needs to be in contention for a pro bowl nom? No room for role players huh, don't sign anyone who isn't going to be an elite player?



Awesome, he's made mistakes. Point them out.

Where is the guy he's signed to a big contract and put in a large role that the guy failed in.

Of all the Pats FAs he's brought in to this point Gaffney had the largest role. Not a very big contract and I'd say he performed quite well all season, especially when he was originally signed and brought here to be a rotational 4th WR spelling Marshall, Stokley, and Royal since he knew all three WR roles from extended time in NE. Came here to be a rotational depth guy, ended up being our #2 WR. Wow, what a monumental **** up of an acquisition that was.

The biggest mistake McDaniels made last off-season was keeping too many Shanahan guys around to begin with. I can think of a several more guys he should've cleared out and replaced last off-season.

Again, I'm not the one who claimed that every former Patriot FA acquisition "worked out well".... or that Gaffney was an "above average #2 WR"....

Point out McDaniels' mistakes? ??? Are you serious? There are too many to list (how about trading this year's #1 draft pick to move up in the second round? No veteran HC does that.) but what's seemed to become a habit of handling personnel issues via the media instead of man-to-man, in-house is one of the primary ones I'd cite.

LaMont Jordan was a waste of money and a roster slot.

Name one former Patriot he's signed that was worth a starting role (there aren't any... they're old and washed up like Ty Law or suck like LaMont Jordan or are 3rd-4th stringers like Gaffney). Paxton was overpaid because Leach was equally good for less $$.

We should perhaps agree to disagree on the last paragraph of your post. After all, Dumervil, Clady, Kupe, Harris, Marshall, DJ, and Champ were all Shanahan acquisitions.... I daresay their performance exceeded that of McDaniels acquisitions like Orton and Gaffney. And the rookie HC's draft picks? Most... other than Moreno... look at this point in time to be... well, disappointing (or is "underachieving" a better term?)

tsiguy96
03-10-2010, 05:54 AM
eddie royal slumped. he had a great rookie year, and a mediocre 2nd year. brandon lloyd replaced him the final 2 weeks and caught 8 balls for 117 yards. orton didnt choose not to throw to royal, or ignore that he was on the field. lloyd had 95 yards in his final game, royal in the first 14 games had a 90 yard game max. do you honestly think mcdaniels game planned to throw to lloyd but not to royal, or tahts how orton worked it out?

eddie will step back up this year, but he slumped in 2009, and theres not very much arguing it. jabar gaffney in relief of marshall put up over 200 yards, and clearly the best #2 on the team in 2009, and horribly underutilized. its getting annoying to hear people whine about royal and blame everyone but him, as if he was getting open every play but they chose not to throw to him anyway.

and this hearing about him signing former patriots is dumb, WHO CARES. they were not brought in for gauranteed starter spots they were brought in to fill spots of need in a system they are comfortable with. green is a rotational dline and makes this team better than him not being here. to get him, mcdaniels likely had to pay more than he wanted. who cares? im not paying the bill, but i will be watching the games and enjoying the effects of him being on the team.

tsiguy96
03-10-2010, 06:00 AM
Again, I'm not the one who claimed that every former Patriot FA acquisition "worked out well".... or that Gaffney was an "above average #2 WR"....

Point out McDaniels' mistakes? ??? Are you serious? There are too many to list (how about trading this year's #1 draft pick to move up in the second round? No veteran HC does that.) but what's seemed to become a habit of handling personnel issues via the media instead of man-to-man, in-house is one of the primary ones I'd cite.

LaMont Jordan was a waste of money and a roster slot.

Name one former Patriot he's signed that was worth a starting role (there aren't any... they're old and washed up like Ty Law or suck like LaMont Jordan or are 3rd-4th stringers like Gaffney). Paxton was overpaid because Leach was equally good for less $$.

We should perhaps agree to disagree on the last paragraph of your post. After all, Dumervil, Clady, Kupe, Harris, Marshall, DJ, and Champ were all Shanahan acquisitions.... I daresay their performance exceeded that of McDaniels acquisitions like Orton and Gaffney. And the rookie HC's draft picks? Most... other than Moreno... look at this point in time to be... well, disappointing (or is "underachieving" a better term?)

carolina did it last year too. they gave up this years first to get everette brown in teh 2nd last year.

lamont jordan got a small salary to be the #4 RB, and got a number of carries that indicated that. is that a huge deal to you?

i didnt know people were still bitter about the cutler thing and blaming that on mcdaniels, especially after the season he just had.

the trade market for marshall tells you everything you need to know about how wanted he is ANYWHERE, the fact that mcdaniels is loving him in the media says hes welcome back.

gaffney is far froma 4th stringer, but please, be sure to continue labeling players based on your perceived reputation of them instead of based on how they actually play.

the draft wasnt great, but guess what, it was his first one and the players GENERALLY get more than one year to show if they will suck or not. atleast on most other teams, but if you are looking for reasons to cry about mcdaniels, well use the draft as one.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-10-2010, 06:23 AM
Fixed for you.

Can't imagine how the Pro Bowl voters overlooked 'em all.

And I can't imagine how you're allowed to discuss football since you clearly know jack **** about the game. Sorry blue, but you're a moron when it comes to the game, and this post where "fixed" his post is proof positive of that.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-10-2010, 06:26 AM
In the season-ending loss.

Bwaaaaaah BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

Your life must be a big pile of miserable. All you do is talk **** about how nothing is right.

****ing pathetic.

TonyR
03-10-2010, 06:27 AM
Some of you guys just get all bent out of shape...

Curious what it was about my post that gave you the impression I was "all bent out of shape"? Why so defensive? Relax, I thought we were discussing football here.

BroncoInferno
03-10-2010, 06:41 AM
Fixed for you.

Can't imagine how the Pro Bowl voters overlooked 'em all.

You are making a fool of yourself again, Blueflame. You clearly have no idea about what the phrase "role-player" means. If they aren't a Pro Bolwer, then they're worthless, right? Great insight, there Ha!

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 06:46 AM
carolina did it last year too. they gave up this years first to get everette brown in teh 2nd last year.

lamont jordan got a small salary to be the #4 RB, and got a number of carries that indicated that. is that a huge deal to you?

i didnt know people were still bitter about the cutler thing and blaming that on mcdaniels, especially after the season he just had.

the trade market for marshall tells you everything you need to know about how wanted he is ANYWHERE, the fact that mcdaniels is loving him in the media says hes welcome back.

gaffney is far froma 4th stringer, but please, be sure to continue labeling players based on your perceived reputation of them instead of based on how they actually play.

the draft wasnt great, but guess what, it was his first one and the players GENERALLY get more than one year to show if they will suck or not. atleast on most other teams, but if you are looking for reasons to cry about mcdaniels, well use the draft as one.

I've always maintained (and his early offseason release proves me correct) that LaMont Jordan was a waste of money and a roster slot. So what? I don't like him.... never have.

Your post is the first one in the thread that mentioned "Cutler". I think you should get over him.

As for Marshall... the coach's choice to go to the media to announce his "benching" days before the embarrassing home blowout vs the Chefs... pretty much showed that McDaniels might eventually take a week-old baloney sandwich for him. A veteran coach might have played it differently... even if he absolutely... for certain...did want to trade Marshall, better trade value could be attained by keeping any "issues" private. Yes, other teams do want a talent like Marshall. They'd be stupid not to. But.... if he can be had for less $$, then of course they will want to wait and see if the price goes down.

Again, I wasn't the one who claimed Gaffney was "an above-average #2 WR". He's not. Did he or did he not start the season behind Marshall, Royal, and Stokley? That would make him the 4th WR...

OK... so now it's not acceptable to notice that some of our rookies underachieved? Even in direct response to a slam on the "Shanahan guys"? Whatever. ::) LOL @ your admission that the draft "wasn't great"... no sh*t Sherlock.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 06:56 AM
You are making a fool of yourself again, Blueflame. You clearly have no idea about what the phrase "role-player" means. If they aren't a Pro Bolwer, then they're worthless, right? Great insight, there Ha!

Again, doesn't one have to be at least suited up to be a "role player"? Can't do that on the "inactives" list.... ::)

BroncoInferno
03-10-2010, 07:06 AM
Again, doesn't one have to be at least suited up to be a "role player"? Can't do that on the "inactives" list.... ::)

Like who? Gaffney? Hochstein? Smith? None were signed to be "Pro Bowlers", each was signed to be a role player and each played their role well. It's pitiful ignorance to simply try and dismiss them simply because they weren't front-line starters. They weren't expected to be to begin with.

sixtimeseight
03-10-2010, 07:18 AM
HHUURRRRR DURRRRR CHEATRIOTS WESSTT DDURRRRR DURRRRR

I can't wait until the Broncos win a few games and Blueflame disappears for a while, just like last year.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-10-2010, 08:18 AM
HHUURRRRR DURRRRR CHEATRIOTS WESSTT DDURRRRR DURRRRR

I can't wait until the Broncos win a few games and Blueflame disappears for a while, just like last year.

Those were good times. Lofty times.

Anything that gives the sniveling folks like blue a chance to vacation is a welcome respite for the rest of us.

strafen
03-10-2010, 08:30 AM
eddie royal slumped. he had a great rookie year, and a mediocre 2nd year. brandon lloyd replaced him the final 2 weeks and caught 8 balls for 117 yards. orton didnt choose not to throw to royal, or ignore that he was on the field. lloyd had 95 yards in his final game, royal in the first 14 games had a 90 yard game max. do you honestly think mcdaniels game planned to throw to lloyd but not to royal, or tahts how orton worked it out?

eddie will step back up this year, but he slumped in 2009, and theres not very much arguing it. jabar gaffney in relief of marshall put up over 200 yards, and clearly the best #2 on the team in 2009, and horribly underutilized. its getting annoying to hear people whine about royal and blame everyone but him, as if he was getting open every play but they chose not to throw to him anyway.

and this hearing about him signing former patriots is dumb, WHO CARES. they were not brought in for gauranteed starter spots they were brought in to fill spots of need in a system they are comfortable with. green is a rotational dline and makes this team better than him not being here. to get him, mcdaniels likely had to pay more than he wanted. who cares? im not paying the bill, but i will be watching the games and enjoying the effects of him being on the team.Slump means you're not producing while you're on the field, not when you're on the bench.
Royal was not involved enough on offense for you to cover up for Mcdaniels and make us believe that what we ALL saw was Eddie Royal simply going thru a slump. Bull-****!
You know better than that. Stop covering up for and defending McDaniels. It's ok to tell it like it is once in a while.

Requiem
03-10-2010, 09:35 AM
I puked about six times reading BlueFlame's anti-McDaniels and Post-Patriot-Depression BS. I think it is time for me to finally use the ignore.

sixtimeseight
03-10-2010, 09:41 AM
Unfortunately, you can't even ignore her.

Br0nc0Buster
03-10-2010, 10:05 AM
In the season-ending loss.

try all season
he out performed Royal....gasp
He was the 2nd best receiver on the team lat year

tsiguy96
03-10-2010, 12:40 PM
its officially hopeless for peole like blueflame, dragster, jhns. they come here to suck the fun out of everything bronco football, we are not allowed to enjoy anything the broncos ever do without hearing about how wrong they did it.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 01:08 PM
its officially hopeless for peole like blueflame, dragster, jhns. they come here to suck the fun out of everything bronco football, we are not allowed to enjoy anything the broncos ever do without hearing about how wrong they did it.

More accurately, if someone grossly exaggerates the value of players simply because those players happened to be "former Patriots", they should expect to be called on it. It is what it is... some of the "former Patriots" on our roster last year had little to no real value.

tsiguy96
03-10-2010, 01:09 PM
More accurately, if someone grossly exaggerates the value of players simply because those players happened to be "former Patriots", they should expect to be called on it. It is what it is... some of the "former Patriots" on our roster last year had little to no real value.

everyone on the team has value, every team needs backups or role players ;)

the denver broncos are better in 2010 than 2009 because jarvis green, jamal williams and justin bannan are on the roster, is that ok with you? we are happy because of it.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 01:15 PM
everyone on the team has value, every team needs backups or role players ;)

the denver broncos are better in 2010 than 2009 because jarvis green, jamal williams and justin bannan are on the roster, is that ok with you? we are happy because of it.

They're also better in 2010 than in 2009 because they will not have LaMont Jordan. :P

scorpio
03-10-2010, 01:18 PM
Unfortunately, you can't even ignore her.

.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 01:21 PM
No forum allows posters to place moderators on ignore.

As for ignoring, it can be done. Example: I ignored the Moose guy twice on this page alone. ;) :P

TonyR
03-10-2010, 01:25 PM
... some of the "former Patriots" on our roster last year had little to no real value.

To be fair, some of the Shanahan Broncos, for lack of a better moniker, had little to no real value themselves. For example, does the name Jarvis Moss ring a bell?

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 01:28 PM
To be fair, some of the Shanahan Broncos, for lack of a better moniker, had little to no real value themselves. For example, does the name Jarvis Moss ring a bell?

You'll get no argument on that. But it's a strawman point because no one made the claim that all of the "Shanahan Broncos" were valuable... like someone (sorry... can't recall offhand exactly who made that claim earlier in the thread) did about the former Patriots.

Requiem
03-10-2010, 01:32 PM
I'm not sure there was anyone stating that all the former Patriots were valuable, but given the roles on their team, some excelled. It is evident that not all of them worked out. There was and is nothing wrong with McDaniels bringing in or trading for players who had schematic familiarity and a good relationship with him which would be conducive and beneficial to coaching and helping our team win down the road.

tsiguy96
03-10-2010, 06:29 PM
They're also better in 2010 than in 2009 because they will not have LaMont Jordan. :P

that would imply that lamont made this team worse because his on field play was bad. it wasnt, he didnt play, he was a backup/run the clock out back because i think hes lost 4 fumbles in his career.

Drek
03-10-2010, 07:10 PM
Again, I'm not the one who claimed that every former Patriot FA acquisition "worked out well".... or that Gaffney was an "above average #2 WR"....
I wouldn't say he was an above average #2, but he was far more productive than the role he was intended to play here. Any time someone outperforms their role I'd say they worked out pretty damn well.

Point out McDaniels' mistakes? ??? Are you serious? There are too many to list (how about trading this year's #1 draft pick to move up in the second round? No veteran HC does that.) but what's seemed to become a habit of handling personnel issues via the media instead of man-to-man, in-house is one of the primary ones I'd cite.
1. you said bringing in former Pats was a mistake. Which former Pat?

2. Funny, the Panthers did it in '09 as well. In fact, a couple teams do it almost every year. We happened to do it in a season when we had another first to spare.

3. Why not back up this comment about handling personnel issues through the media with some facts? Or even a single example? I hope you aren't talking about Cutler or Marshall. They both have been working the media since the first day McDaniels was hired. In fact in the former case all McDaniels was asking for was a chance to talk to the player in a man to man conversation, but was constantly refused.

LaMont Jordan was a waste of money and a roster slot.
So paying an experienced vet who knew the system just a little more than league minimum to be a garbage time/injury insurance back was a waste of money? I'd love to hear the logic behind that. He didn't take snaps from anyone, he didn't see any meaningful snaps, and he didn't cost enough to have any impact on the rest of our off-season moves. He brought absolutely zero negatives and his familiarity with the system was a positive in case one of the two primary backs missed significant time due to injury.

Breaking in a rookie RB and bringing in a vet from another system didn't give us practice reps to waste on our #3 RB learning the ins and outs of the system as well. A guy like Jordan made a hell of a lot of sense because he knew the system and didn't need any first team reps to be ready to go if the need arose. Thankfully it didn't.

Name one former Patriot he's signed that was worth a starting role (there aren't any... they're old and washed up like Ty Law or suck like LaMont Jordan or are 3rd-4th stringers like Gaffney). Paxton was overpaid because Leach was equally good for less $$.
So every player we ever sign needs to be filling a starting role from day one?

Ever heard of signing quality depth/rotational players so that your team doesn't fall apart if one starter gets injured?

Law was a solid nickel corner, we signed him to be a solid nickel corner.

Jordan, as explained before filled his role exactly as he should have.

LeKevin Smith got injured and missed the first two weeks of the season. Even still, he was acquired to be a rotational depth DE in our new 3-4 front. Once healthy he was a rotational depth DE in our 3-4 front.

Russ Hochstein was acquired to provide interior OL depth and play a specialist role as a FB/H-Back in goal line sets. He ended up starting 10 games. A gross overproduction for his role.

Leonidas Paxton was acquired to be an outstanding long snapper. All season long he was an outstanding long snapper.

Jabar Gaffney was acquired to be a utility 4th WR. He ended up being the 2nd best WR on the team.

Where are all these busts who didn't live up to their roles on the team? Its like you fault Ty Law for not showing up and beating out Champ Bailey from day one, or Jordan for not beating more Moreno, etc.. That wasn't what they where asked to do and they weren't given contracts like they where supposed to. They where low cost depth additions who generally played at or above the expected level.

We should perhaps agree to disagree on the last paragraph of your post. After all, Dumervil, Clady, Kupe, Harris, Marshall, DJ, and Champ were all Shanahan acquisitions.... I daresay their performance exceeded that of McDaniels acquisitions like Orton and Gaffney. And the rookie HC's draft picks? Most... other than Moreno... look at this point in time to be... well, disappointing (or is "underachieving" a better term?)
Did I say he needed to clean out all Shanahan guys? I'm pretty sure I didn't. Just that he didn't go far enough with cleaning out the trash.

For example, Ben Hamilton. He doesn't belong in the NFL anymore. Shanahan has been blowing smoke up Broncos fans asses for years with that "Hamilton ranked the best in our off-season evals again this year!" bull****. I'm sorry, getting treated like a rag doll by every passably decent DT or 3-4 DE isn't what an OG is supposed to do. But McDaniels gave him a shot.

If teams had standards Tony Scheffler would never play in this league again, after outright saying he didn't want his team to make the playoffs. He's a bitch.

Brett Kern thankfully got cut but if we'd have done it in the previous off-season we wouldn't have had to dig a replacement up off the scrap pile, we could've gotten a real replacement.

Pretty much all of McDaniels biggest mistakes came from him trying to keep some of the Shanahan hold overs around and giving them a shot to contribute. Now hopefully he knows better and cleans house on the rest of Shanahan's leftovers who don't have what it takes to contribute to a winning team in this league.

Arkansas Bronco
03-10-2010, 07:13 PM
I just played Madden 07 and Green beat Rice out in pre-season for RE. Championship!!!

KevinJames
03-10-2010, 07:22 PM
reading this thread I have to say Blueflame is a moron wow

that is all continue the fights

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 10:44 PM
that would imply that lamont made this team worse because his on field play was bad. it wasnt, he didnt play, he was a backup/run the clock out back because i think hes lost 4 fumbles in his career.

If the team can use that roster slot on a more productive player than LaMont Jordan was in 2009, then they will be better. If he was genuinely a good and valuable player, chances are good that his professional resume would not include 3 different teams in the past 3 seasons.... some team would have felt he was worth keeping. Yet the Raiders, Pats, and Broncos obviously didn't think he was. Oh... and I don't exactly see other teams lining up to sign him now that he's cut loose either.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 11:00 PM
I wouldn't say he was an above average #2, but he was far more productive than the role he was intended to play here. Any time someone outperforms their role I'd say they worked out pretty damn well.

I suppose if you consider putting up decent numbers in only a single game (a one-sided loss at that) to be "working out pretty damn well"...


1. you said bringing in former Pats was a mistake. Which former Pat?

I already answered this: I don't think the performances of LaMont Jordan or Ty Law were all that valuable. And Mike Leach was every bit as good as the more-expensive Lonie Paxton.

2. Funny, the Panthers did it in '09 as well. In fact, a couple teams do it almost every year. We happened to do it in a season when we had another first to spare.

It will be interesting to see the reaction if we end up essentially trading Brandon Marshall for Alfonso Smith.

3. Why not back up this comment about handling personnel issues through the media with some facts? Or even a single example? I hope you aren't talking about Cutler or Marshall. They both have been working the media since the first day McDaniels was hired. In fact in the former case all McDaniels was asking for was a chance to talk to the player in a man to man conversation, but was constantly refused.
You've already forgotten that the "Brandon Marshall was benched and not due to injury in the last game of the season" story came out first in the media? I thought that kind of stuff should have been kept between the coach and the player. Especially if the coach does in fact intend to trade the player. Because all that's accomplished by putting it out in the media is to decrease the player's trade value and the coach "should" want to maximize it instead.


So paying an experienced vet who knew the system just a little more than league minimum to be a garbage time/injury insurance back was a waste of money? I'd love to hear the logic behind that. He didn't take snaps from anyone, he didn't see any meaningful snaps, and he didn't cost enough to have any impact on the rest of our off-season moves. He brought absolutely zero negatives and his familiarity with the system was a positive in case one of the two primary backs missed significant time due to injury.

Breaking in a rookie RB and bringing in a vet from another system didn't give us practice reps to waste on our #3 RB learning the ins and outs of the system as well. A guy like Jordan made a hell of a lot of sense because he knew the system and didn't need any first team reps to be ready to go if the need arose. Thankfully it didn't.


So every player we ever sign needs to be filling a starting role from day one?

Ever heard of signing quality depth/rotational players so that your team doesn't fall apart if one starter gets injured?

Bolded the key word for you. "Quality" is not a word that's normally applied to scrubs like LaMont Jordan.

Law was a solid nickel corner, we signed him to be a solid nickel corner.
No. Law is over the hill... a shadow of his former self.

Jordan, as explained before filled his role exactly as he should have.
I assume that's why he's unemployed now.

LeKevin Smith got injured and missed the first two weeks of the season. Even still, he was acquired to be a rotational depth DE in our new 3-4 front. Once healthy he was a rotational depth DE in our 3-4 front.

Russ Hochstein was acquired to provide interior OL depth and play a specialist role as a FB/H-Back in goal line sets. He ended up starting 10 games. A gross overproduction for his role.

Yet our biggest weakness (the area that most needs to be addressed this offseason) is both lines.

Leonidas Paxton was acquired to be an outstanding long snapper. All season long he was an outstanding long snapper.
He was no better than Mike Leach though... and Leach cost less.

Jabar Gaffney was acquired to be a utility 4th WR. He ended up being the 2nd best WR on the team.
Which speaks volumes about the ineptitude of our offense if our "2nd best WR on the team" was only responsible for scoring 12 points.

Where are all these busts who didn't live up to their roles on the team? Its like you fault Ty Law for not showing up and beating out Champ Bailey from day one, or Jordan for not beating more Moreno, etc.. That wasn't what they where asked to do and they weren't given contracts like they where supposed to. They where low cost depth additions who generally played at or above the expected level.

Again, if Jordan had played "at or above the expected level", wouldn't McDaniels have kept him? Why was he let go? (he sucks, that's why)


Did I say he needed to clean out all Shanahan guys? I'm pretty sure I didn't. Just that he didn't go far enough with cleaning out the trash.

For example, Ben Hamilton. He doesn't belong in the NFL anymore. Shanahan has been blowing smoke up Broncos fans asses for years with that "Hamilton ranked the best in our off-season evals again this year!" bull****. I'm sorry, getting treated like a rag doll by every passably decent DT or 3-4 DE isn't what an OG is supposed to do. But McDaniels gave him a shot.

If teams had standards Tony Scheffler would never play in this league again, after outright saying he didn't want his team to make the playoffs. He's a b****.

Brett Kern thankfully got cut but if we'd have done it in the previous off-season we wouldn't have had to dig a replacement up off the scrap pile, we could've gotten a real replacement.

Pretty much all of McDaniels biggest mistakes came from him trying to keep some of the Shanahan hold overs around and giving them a shot to contribute. Now hopefully he knows better and cleans house on the rest of Shanahan's leftovers who don't have what it takes to contribute to a winning team in this league.

He's got a lot of "cleaning out" to do on players who "don't have what it takes to contribute to a winning team in this league". And he made a good start with LaMont Jordan.

Blueflame
03-10-2010, 11:02 PM
reading this thread I have to say Blueflame is a moron wow

that is all continue the fights

Why even bother to post on the thread if all you've got is a grade-school level personal insult? Next.

Br0nc0Buster
03-10-2010, 11:24 PM
Why do you keep saying Gaffney only had one good game?
He out performed Royal all year long
He performed his role and was a safety valve for Orton all year long
Its like you dont understand why he was brought it
He wasnt brought in to command double teams and get 15 catches a game
But he proved that when his role is expanded(KC game), that he can still produce

I guess if Gaffney only had one good game, then Royal had zero

criticizing Gaffney is weak, he was one of the best players on our offense

Mr.Meanie
03-10-2010, 11:30 PM
Drek, sorry but you're wasting pearls. Honestly your takes would be better recieved with more intelligent discussion over at MHR.

~Crash~
03-10-2010, 11:39 PM
What?!? I though nobody wanted to play or coach for McD?!? What is going on here?!?

Were do you guys come with such brilliant takes keep them coming . There is about ten of you guys that copy and past the same old ... **** every now and then be Original

strafen
03-10-2010, 11:42 PM
Drek, sorry but you're wasting pearls. Honestly your takes would be better recieved with more intelligent discussion over at MHR.Instead of sucking up to Drek, why don't you take the time to read Blueflame's replies in a more subjective way, rather than taking everything she's saying as pointless, because she's not a Mcdaniels cheerleader?
I've read both Drek's and Blueflame's replies and to me hers made more sense and was more informative than Drek's

~Crash~
03-10-2010, 11:47 PM
Drek, sorry but you're wasting pearls. Honestly your takes would be better recieved with more intelligent discussion over at MHR.

Mr.Meanie don't let the door hit you were the good lord split you ...:welcome:

~Crash~
03-10-2010, 11:54 PM
Am I the only one in this forum split with the idea that yes there have been plenty of mistakes but I am hoping this coach gets it right ? and I am sick of the same people copying and pasting the same old **** god try real ****ing hard to have a take or shut the **** up.

All I see is this coach is either no mistakes or a complete moron... I say he will fail not because he is either but will run out of time because our owner is not the type to let grass grow under his feet.

Blueflame
03-11-2010, 12:04 AM
Why do you keep saying Gaffney only had one good game?
He out performed Royal all year long
He performed his role and was a safety valve for Orton all year long
Its like you dont understand why he was brought it
He wasnt brought in to command double teams and get 15 catches a game
But he proved that when his role is expanded(KC game), that he can still produce

I guess if Gaffney only had one good game, then Royal had zero

criticizing Gaffney is weak, he was one of the best players on our offense

Um... because 213 of his 732 yards came in a single game? ???

And Royal had a "sophomore slump"... so? Hopefully he'll be better this year.

Furthermore, what you're characterizing as mere "criticism of Gaffney" is more like countering the silly claim that he was an "above average #2 WR".... his numbers simply do not support that claim.

Florida_Bronco
03-11-2010, 12:10 AM
Blueflame is gonna debate with Drek. This should be good.

Blueflame
03-11-2010, 12:52 AM
Blueflame is gonna debate with Drek. This should be good.

Yes, it should be.

So... Drek. Since it's your claim that Jabar Gaffney is an "above average #2 WR"... please name for me the 16 #2 WRs in the league that he was "better than".

And then please explain for me whether Josh McDaniels was wrong in acquiring LaMont Jordan last year or whether he's wrong now for letting him go. I mean, it has to be one or the other. If Jordan was worth a roster spot ("as a role player") last year, then shouldn't he be worth one now too? So either he's worth a roster slot or he sucks and isn't. Which is it?

Florida_Bronco
03-11-2010, 01:18 AM
Yes, it should be.

So... Drek. Since it's your claim that Jabar Gaffney is an "above average #2 WR"... please name for me the 16 #2 WRs in the league that he was "better than".

And then please explain for me whether Josh McDaniels was wrong in acquiring LaMont Jordan last year or whether he's wrong now for letting him go. I mean, it has to be one or the other. If Jordan was worth a roster spot ("as a role player") last year, then shouldn't he be worth one now too? So either he's worth a roster slot or he sucks and isn't. Which is it?

Actually before you start challenging someone who is easily the 2nd most knowledgeable poster here, you should go back and read. It was me that claimed Gaffney was a slightly above average #2. Drek disagreed with that statement.

As for the rest, I don't see anything in there that hasn't been addressed already by Drek or myself.

Blueflame
03-11-2010, 01:39 AM
Actually before you start challenging someone who is easily the 2nd most knowledgeable poster here, you should go back and read. It was me that claimed Gaffney was a slightly above average #2. Drek disagreed with that statement.

As for the rest, I don't see anything in there that hasn't been addressed already by Drek or myself.

My bad. I misread the first sentence of (Drek's) post #326... he said he wouldn't (not "would") call Gaffney "above average". So since that's your viewpoint, then you can answer the question, FB. Please name the specific #2 WRs in the league who were outperformed by Gaffney.

Drek can address whether Jordan was/is worth a roster spot (as a "role player") or if his release was justifiable.

Florida_Bronco
03-11-2010, 02:32 AM
My bad. I misread the first sentence of (Drek's) post #326... he said he wouldn't (not "would") call Gaffney "above average". So since that's your viewpoint, then you can answer the question, FB. Please name the specific #2 WRs in the league who were outperformed by Gaffney.

Well let's see. Gaffney provided either comparable or superior performance to the #2 wide receivers of the following teams. You'll notice I bolded the playoff teams out of them.

- Falcons
- Ravens
- Panthers
- Bears
- Bengals
- Cleveland (actually outperformed their #1 as well)
- Cowboys
- Lions
- Texans
- Jaguars
- Chiefs (outperformed their #1)
- Dolphins
- Vikings
- Saints
- Giants
- Jets
- Raiders
- Eagles
- Rams (outperformed their #1)
- Chargers
- 49ers (outperformed their #1)
- Seahawks
- Bucs (outperformed their #1)
- Titans
- Redskins

That would make the final tally 25 of 32 NFL teams (and half of the playoff teams) who Gaffney could have provided comparable or superior performance to their #2 receiver and all while splitting snaps at #3 here with Brandon Stokley.

So, any other wonderful insight you wish to share with us?

Blueflame
03-11-2010, 03:20 AM
Well let's see. Gaffney provided either comparable or superior performance to the #2 wide receivers of the following teams. You'll notice I bolded the playoff teams out of them.

- Falcons
- Ravens
- Panthers
- Bears
- Bengals
- Cleveland (actually outperformed their #1 as well)
- Cowboys
- Lions
- Texans
- Jaguars
- Chiefs (outperformed their #1)
- Dolphins
- Vikings
- Saints
- Giants
- Jets
- Raiders
- Eagles
- Rams (outperformed their #1)
- Chargers
- 49ers (outperformed their #1)
- Seahawks
- Bucs (outperformed their #1)
- Titans
- Redskins

That would make the final tally 25 of 32 NFL teams (and half of the playoff teams) who Gaffney could have provided comparable or superior performance to their #2 receiver and all while splitting snaps at #3 here with Brandon Stokley.

So, any other wonderful insight you wish to share with us?

You can take the Vikings, Saints, Giants, Eagles, Chargers, and Seahawks off that list. Unless you consider 732 a higher number than 790, 804, 822, 762, 776, and 812.

Drek
03-11-2010, 05:10 AM
I suppose if you consider putting up decent numbers in only a single game (a one-sided loss at that) to be "working out pretty damn well"...
You could take the KC game off the books entirely and Jabar Gaffney still massively outperformed the role he was signed to do here. He was paid like a 4th WR, he produced like a good #3. You add in the KC game and he looks like an ok #2 statistically.




I already answered this: I don't think the performances of LaMont Jordan or Ty Law were all that valuable. And Mike Leach was every bit as good as the more-expensive Lonie Paxton.[/qutoe]
Blue, you honestly feel like talking to a wall sometimes.



[quote]It will be interesting to see the reaction if we end up essentially trading Brandon Marshall for Alfonso Smith.
And it'll be interesting to see how many people eat their crow if Alphonso Smith turns it around and becomes a quality player for this team.

Fact is, he's a better prospect than every CB in this draft except Joe Haden. He was a better CB prospect than pretty much all of last year's class other than Vontae Davis (unless you wanted your CB to play safety, like Jenkins). Two years back to back without any truly elite CBs and we've got two older starters at CB. We where in a need situation and they had Smith rated at a 1st round grade. Its a deal the team SHOULD have made from a logistics standpoint, otherwise we're using that same 1st round pick or our 2nd rounder this year on a CB who isn't as good a prospect.


You've already forgotten that the "Brandon Marshall was benched and not due to injury in the last game of the season" story came out first in the media? I thought that kind of stuff should have been kept between the coach and the player. Especially if the coach does in fact intend to trade the player. Because all that's accomplished by putting it out in the media is to decrease the player's trade value and the coach "should" want to maximize it instead.
Seems like the Broncos would prefer to keep Marshall, they did offer him a contract last summer and all that.

There comes a time when you got to fire a shot across someone's bow. Bill Parcells did it often with Terry Glenn, Terrell Owens, etc.. McDaniels had been having one on one conversations with Marshall for much of the preseason, and Marshall still packed it in after getting his pro bowl nom late in the season. When the one on one discussions stop working what else should he do?

So you've got one example where he made reference to an in house problem with a player, after repeated one on one conversations with the player leading to no real improvement in behavior. At the same time if he'd said it was injury related and then Marshall comes out and says he's not actually hurt then we've got a nice little war of words and all the people still wishing this was Mike Shanahan's team would cry about how McDaniels lies all the time.

You keep grading his actions with a massive double standard, and you ignore all the times he's tried to keep things in house, like the whole Cutler bitch fest, where the player drug it out into the media to get what he wanted.




Bolded the key word for you. "Quality" is not a word that's normally applied to scrubs like LaMont Jordan.
Was LaMont Jordan better than the other available options as a #3/#4 injury protection RB? Yes, definitively. As I said, he knew the system so he wasn't taking any snaps from guys who needed them. That is exactly what you want from a guy in his role. We didn't ever need it, thank god, but that is what he's there for.

Your complaint is akin to saying "because I've never used that fire extinguisher it was a bad purchase". Real rational point there.


No. Law is over the hill... a shadow of his former self.
Where we asking him to replace Champ? I don't think we where. We paid him to be a solid nickel corner. He came in and played like a solid nickel corner. Who cares if he isn't the pro bowl corner he used to be? We weren't even looking for that. Do you complain when your car gets up around 100,000 miles and isn't the same as it was when you first got it off the lot? Things age. If you use them relative to their current value instead of acting like they're the same as they used to be you can still get good value out of them.


I assume that's why he's unemployed now.
Of course. We no longer need him because Moreno and Buckhalter have had time in the system. That insurance policy is now no longer necessary. Time to use the roster spot on someone who we can develop.


Yet our biggest weakness (the area that most needs to be addressed this offseason) is both lines.
And yet Le Kevin Smith was good enough to play in rotation for us, meaning he was better than just random filler and the guys who where left behind on this team when McDaniels took over. Did he make some huge difference? Nope. But he did his job. Thats all you can ask of rotational guys like him.


He was no better than Mike Leach though... and Leach cost less.
Most scouts think he is, he can actually play an OL spot in a pinch, and Leach cost all of $250K less. For McDaniels to have a known quantity in the locker room from day one I'd say thats worth it.


Which speaks volumes about the ineptitude of our offense if our "2nd best WR on the team" was only responsible for scoring 12 points.
And that is Gaffney's fault? He was asked to be a rotational 4th WR, he ended up playing like our #2. Massive pick up in value there.



Again, if Jordan had played "at or above the expected level", wouldn't McDaniels have kept him? Why was he let go? (he sucks, that's why)
Again, no. He was an insurance policy we could plug and play in the system. We no longer needed him because our guys know the system. Time to get a younger guy to groom.


He's got a lot of "cleaning out" to do on players who "don't have what it takes to contribute to a winning team in this league". And he made a good start with LaMont Jordan.
Yup. Jordan's usefulness had come to an end, so he's gone. Same with Kenny Peterson. This nepotism for NE guys you envision is just irrational hatred though. Where was this outrage when guys like Patrick Hape and Dwayne "I like to choke chicks and throw them off walls" Carswell where retained year after year? Or when we paid Simeon Rice starter money to do absolutely nothing? Niko Koutouvides starter money for absolutely nothing again?

Funny how all the rage about our signings crops up now when Shanahan is gone and a new coach is in town running things.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-11-2010, 06:30 AM
Instead of sucking up to Drek, why don't you take the time to read Blueflame's replies in a more subjective way, rather than taking everything she's saying as pointless, because she's not a Mcdaniels cheerleader?
I've read both Drek's and Blueflame's replies and to me hers made more sense and was more informative than Drek's

That's because her home language is dip****, and you only speak dip****.

sixtimeseight
03-11-2010, 08:45 AM
Jesus, this is getting embarrassing. Blueflame, may I suggest you pull your disappearing act a few months early this year?

Looks like she took my advice!

Cito Pelon
03-11-2010, 08:59 AM
The roster is shaping up nicely on paper with the recent FA grabs. Got some good vets with a few productive years left, vet 3-4 DL guys, a productive vet CB. All should help win in the now. I'm hoping for a good draft to get the youngsters in that will help solidify the roster over the rest of this decade along with some good prospects from the 2009 draft.

BroncoInferno
03-11-2010, 09:04 AM
You can take the Vikings, Saints, Giants, Eagles, Chargers, and Seahawks off that list. Unless you consider 732 a higher number than 790, 804, 822, 762, 776, and 812.

He used the word "comparable." That means similar. The numbers you listed are certainly comparable to Gaffney's, and not superior by very much. Even if you remove those clubs, that means that Gaffney, who was primarily used as a #3/#4 WR, produced as well or better than the #2 WR on 19 of the 32 teams.

Plus, as Drek has mentioned, Gaffney was signed to be the #3 or #4 WR and payed as such. The fact that his numbers compare well with #2 WRs throughout the league shows that his production more than exceeded what is generally expected of a #3 or #4 WR.

BroncoInferno
03-11-2010, 09:09 AM
And Mike Leach was every bit as good as the more-expensive Lonie Paxton.

You keep saying this as if it's an uncontrovertible fact. I suppose you know enough about the subleties of long-snapping that you can explain to us how you know that Leach is "every bit as good as the more-expensive Lonie Paxson." I'm sure you keyed in on both Paxson and Leach throughout the season and, coupled with your expert knowledge of long-snapping, can support your assertion with a detailed analysis of their play and how Leach's performance was just as good as Paxson's.

(This, of course, does not even address the leadership aspect of Paxson's signing that McD specifically mentioned, nor the fact that his superior pay was by a cap-inconsequential $200,000.)

Beantown Bronco
03-11-2010, 09:14 AM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Prater had no problem with the Paxson signing.

Mr.Meanie
03-11-2010, 09:29 AM
You can take the Vikings, Saints, Giants, Eagles, Chargers, and Seahawks off that list. Unless you consider 732 a higher number than 790, 804, 822, 762, 776, and 812.

Doesn't that still leave 19 other teams he outperformed at the #2 spot? Why not just admit you had no idea what the hell you were talking about?

Br0nc0Buster
03-11-2010, 09:32 AM
Um... because 213 of his 732 yards came in a single game? ???

And Royal had a "sophomore slump"... so? Hopefully he'll be better this year.

Furthermore, what you're characterizing as mere "criticism of Gaffney" is more like countering the silly claim that he was an "above average #2 WR".... his numbers simply do not support that claim.

Your exact words were that he is a "mediocre third stringer"
He was the second best receiver on the team, not a "mediocre third stringer"

The fact that he was the 2nd most productive while not starting makes it that much more impressive

For us he was the second best receiver, sophomore slump or not in regards to Royal

Florida_Bronco
03-11-2010, 11:00 AM
He used the word "comparable." That means similar. The numbers you listed are certainly comparable to Gaffney's, and not superior by very much. Even if you remove those clubs, that means that Gaffney, who was primarily used as a #3/#4 WR, produced as well or better than the #2 WR on 19 of the 32 teams.

Plus, as Drek has mentioned, Gaffney was signed to be the #3 or #4 WR and payed as such. The fact that his numbers compare well with #2 WRs throughout the league shows that his production more than exceeded what is generally expected of a #3 or #4 WR.

Exactly. :thumbsup: