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View Full Version : What does Orton need to do to receive a new deal in Denver?


BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 05:38 PM
I know their is a big line between the Orton backers and the people who want Orton out and someone else brought in. With that in mind, I am curious what everyone feels Orton needs to accomplish in 2010 for fans and the franchise to want him to get a new deal that will keep him in Denver long term, or is he in a situation when no matter what he does this season, it's not going to be good enough for fans to want him to remain in Denver?

me personally, i believe he had a good season last year considering the circumstances of injuires limiting him, basically learning on the job, and the offensive line play as well as a lack of running game. and for me, i feel if he shows he can build upon last season and can guide the team to a better record and playoffs, as well as avoid injury, if he can do those things I think he would be more than deserving of a new contract.

now, I am not saying let's not bring in competition for him, I am saying that after last season he deserves a shot to become our long term option at QB.

Dagmar
02-26-2010, 05:48 PM
Orton will NEVER be good enough for "certain" fans.

Honestly, a qb rating of 85 and up and a 2 to 1 TD to INT rating...

Killericon
02-26-2010, 05:48 PM
Sign a one year deal. With a mutual option for a 2nd year.

I like him, but that's what I think it'll take.

DBroncos4life
02-26-2010, 05:51 PM
You are fooling yourself into believing that this fan base is capable of backing a QB for long periods of time. Elway set the bar way too high for that. I know people that still hated Steve Young because of the way that the 49ers handled Montana. Same is happening with the Packers with Rodgers/Favre. Anything less then a super star won't cut it in Denver. Average to above average QB's don't have a long history of making it in Denver. Griese, Plummer, and Cutler all had the fan base turn on them sooner or later. I don't see Orton's abilities being above anyone of those three QB's there. I think a Super Bowl win will save him and only that.

SouthStndJunkie
02-26-2010, 05:57 PM
There is no way I would give Kyle Orton a long-term deal right now.

A one year contract is by far the smartest option for 2010.

If Orton comes out in 2010 and plays great football and takes the team to the playoffs, then they can look into it....but the smart move is a one year deal to see if Orton has hit his ceiling in regards to potential and performance.

RhymesayersDU
02-26-2010, 05:59 PM
Orton needs to not suck.

And I don't even want to hear the arguments that say he's a legitimate NFL starter.

BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 06:00 PM
You are fooling yourself into believing that this fan base is capable of backing a QB for long periods of time. Elway set the bar way too high for that. I know people that still hated Steve Young because of the way that the 49ers handled Montana. Same is happening with the Packers with Rodgers/Favre. Anything less then a super star won't cut it in Denver. Average to above average QB's don't have a long history of making it in Denver. Griese, Plummer, and Cutler all had the fan base turn on them sooner or later. I don't see Orton's abilities being above anyone of those three QB's there. I think a Super Bowl win will save him and only that.

that is a big reason i brought up the question. will Broncos fans ever be satisfied with a good QB, who wins games, has decent stats, has the respect and love of his teammates, or have we been so spoiled by the greatness of Elway, that no one will ever be good enough, or is it possible that Orton puts together a season that doesn't get people to forget Elway(because that will never happen, in 50 years Broncos fans will still talk about Elway), but good enough that the fanbase would be happy to see him in Denver after 2010

KipCorrington25
02-26-2010, 06:01 PM
What you see is what you get with Orton, he is not going to develop an arm, ability to scramble, improvise, or break a fingernail tackle... he sucks...

2KBack
02-26-2010, 06:01 PM
speaking purely about the fanbase, it's unfortunate to think that he would have to essentially win a championship to win a lot of them over. We saw with Plummer that getting to the AFCCG isn't enough. Orton will face that same scrutiny.

I personally am firmly his corner. I think he played well last season and is in position to take his game to the next level. If he shows the progression I think he is capable of, I think he will deserve a longer deal. Doesn't mean a lot of the fans won't still be riding him though. Seems to be the curse of being a QB in Denver.

BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 06:04 PM
There is no way I would give Kyle Orton a long-term deal right now.

A one year contract is by far the smartest option for 2010.

If Orton comes out in 2010 and plays great football and takes the team to the playoffs, then they can look into it....but the smart move is a one year deal to see if Orton has hit his ceiling in regards to potential and performance.

that's what i was asking, what can he do in 2010 that will get the fanbase to want him in Denver long term

2KBack
02-26-2010, 06:04 PM
Orton needs to not suck.

And I don't even want to hear the arguments that say he's a legitimate NFL starter.

What you see is what you get with Orton, he is not going to develop an arm, ability to scramble, improvise, or break a fingernail tackle... he sucks...

It's good to see we are going to have yet another constructive thread

Dagmar
02-26-2010, 06:05 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/2zs8iu0.png

oubronco
02-26-2010, 06:05 PM
He needs to work on hitting his receivers in stride past 10 yds

BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 06:05 PM
Orton needs to not suck.

And I don't even want to hear the arguments that say he's a legitimate NFL starter.

come on man, legit responses. i didn't make the thread so people can bitch and moan about the guy or talk **** about him. it is a legit question, what can he do in 2010 that will make fans be fine with him as our long term option at QB.

Dagmar
02-26-2010, 06:07 PM
He is 14th if you rank by QB rating. I cannot believe that those aren't enough for some people.

Well, to be honest, I can.

Crushaholic
02-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Orton (and the whole team in general) needs to get back to playing at a high level. The comebacks against New England and Dallas seem like a lifetime ago. He is capable of being "the man", IMO...

extralife
02-26-2010, 06:13 PM
You are fooling yourself into believing that this fan base is capable of backing a QB for long periods of time. Elway set the bar way too high for that. I know people that still hated Steve Young because of the way that the 49ers handled Montana. Same is happening with the Packers with Rodgers/Favre. Anything less then a super star won't cut it in Denver. Average to above average QB's don't have a long history of making it in Denver. Griese, Plummer, and Cutler all had the fan base turn on them sooner or later. I don't see Orton's abilities being above anyone of those three QB's there. I think a Super Bowl win will save him and only that.

Rep. It's a hard QB town. I went through the Montana/Young thing, and it took me a couple years (and an MVP trophy) to take to Young, despite his being probably the most gifted QB to ever play the game (maybe Elway).

Lev Vyvanse
02-26-2010, 06:16 PM
He is 14th if you rank by QB rating. I cannot believe that those aren't enough for some people.

Well, to be honest, I can.

14th in W-L for a team is what? About 8-8? As much as I hate it, we are living in the era of QB play being the most important aspect of the team.

DBroncos4life
02-26-2010, 06:19 PM
that is a big reason i brought up the question. will Broncos fans ever be satisfied with a good QB, who wins games, has decent stats, has the respect and love of his teammates, or have we been so spoiled by the greatness of Elway, that no one will ever be good enough, or is it possible that Orton puts together a season that doesn't get people to forget Elway(because that will never happen, in 50 years Broncos fans will still talk about Elway), but good enough that the fanbase would be happy to see him in Denver after 2010

I like Orton. What he did for Brook Berringer family is amazing. It speaks volumes of what type of person he is off the football field. That said I do have big concerns about a player in his career year couldn't crack the top ten in yards, TD's or rating. Not only that we only got eight wins out of it. If we don't have a back up plan and he doesn't progress in 10 I think we are in a lot of trouble. How good do you think the team can be in 2010 if Orton struggles? Honestly if he hurts his ankle again and struggles like he did the past two season's after hurting it we need to move on from him. Both the 08 and 09 season's he had 4 Int's before he hurt his ankle and it went to hell after that. Should that happen a third season it's to problematic to pin the hopes of our team on.

oubronco
02-26-2010, 06:21 PM
that is a big reason i brought up the question. will Broncos fans ever be satisfied with a good QB, who wins games, has decent stats, has the respect and love of his teammates, or have we been so spoiled by the greatness of Elway, that no one will ever be good enough, or is it possible that Orton puts together a season that doesn't get people to forget Elway(because that will never happen, in 50 years Broncos fans will still talk about Elway), but good enough that the fanbase would be happy to see him in Denver after 2010

Probably not until the next QB wins a superbowl

DBroncos4life
02-26-2010, 06:24 PM
He is 14th if you rank by QB rating. I cannot believe that those aren't enough for some people.

Well, to be honest, I can.

Dude you are a riot. His stats are no more impressive then Jay Cutlers 08 stats and we all know what you think about him. Both had career years and both lead the Broncos to 8 wins.

gunns
02-26-2010, 06:25 PM
I'm not buying the "we can't get over Elway" thing anymore. I'm one of the biggest Elway fans and that just isn't the case. I want a QB that when he walks on the field I have confidence he can lead the offense and not screw it up. That he has the talent to throw the short ball, the long ball, scramble, read defenses, do what's needed to help the team CONSISTENTLY. I almost had it with Griese before he hurt his shoulder and became a scared little girl in the pocket, I never had it with Plummer (the reason the AFCC wasn't good enough is because we won it in spite of him), never had it with Cutler, especially in the red zone. We have not had good QB's since Elway left, so I don't see where any comparison would come in.

Archer81
02-26-2010, 06:25 PM
There is no way I would give Kyle Orton a long-term deal right now.

A one year contract is by far the smartest option for 2010.

If Orton comes out in 2010 and plays great football and takes the team to the playoffs, then they can look into it....but the smart move is a one year deal to see if Orton has hit his ceiling in regards to potential and performance.


This.


:Broncos:

Popps
02-26-2010, 06:28 PM
I think this situation plays out fairly straight forward. I think he'll be extended to a modest contract and I think the search will be on for someone to compete for the gig going forward.

McDaniels knows his offense is in safe hands with Orton, but probably also sees what the rest of us see... a guy who isn't perhaps the most dynamic QB out there.

I will say this... I think most Orton detractors underrate him because he doesn't always look spectacular doing his job. He's deceptively efficient and made a ton of big throws for us last year that most people are never going to take the time to re-watch and give him credit for.

That said, he's got some limitations and I'm not sure where his real upside caps off. Could we go to a SB with him? Absolutely. Is he our BEST option for that pursuit... I think the jury is out on that question.

What we know is, he's undoubtedly the best option available for us this coming season. So, the easiest thing to do for Broncos fans is to get behind this guy. He's a hard worker, a good leader and a good Bronco. He's going to be our starter next season. Hopefully we'll develop other options as we move forward.

gyldenlove
02-26-2010, 06:45 PM
Well first off he needs to do something Cutler didn't, either have win more than 8 games, have a rating over 90, pass for 30 TDs, just something.

gunns
02-26-2010, 06:46 PM
What we know is, he's undoubtedly the best option available for us this coming season. So, the easiest thing to do for Broncos fans is to get behind this guy. He's a hard worker, a good leader and a good Bronco. He's going to be our starter next season. Hopefully we'll develop other options as we move forward.

That is what it is.

Bob's your Information Minister
02-26-2010, 06:50 PM
Genetic enhancement would be a start.

Archer81
02-26-2010, 06:57 PM
Genetic enhancement would be a start.


Dont you have the Japanese countryside to go ravage?


:Broncos:

BlaK-Argentina
02-26-2010, 07:31 PM
If he can play a bit better than last year (and I'm 100% sure he can) I'd be fine with him for the next five years. I still want a complete team that wins games by running the ball, playing defense and making the throws that are needed. Like Popps said, Orton made a good number of clutch passes that people seem to forget. In my mind, he came through more often than not with not much help and will only get better.

I don't get the irrational hate for the guy. I'm assuming the people that hate him are the same that hate McD. (and I have most of those on ignore because I come here to read about the team and learn from genuine football discussions, not blind hate) Orton is a guy that can get the job done. He won't be spectacular but we really shouldn't need him to be.

strafen
02-26-2010, 07:44 PM
I know their is a big line between the Orton backers and the people who want Orton out and someone else brought in. With that in mind, I am curious what everyone feels Orton needs to accomplish in 2010 for fans and the franchise to want him to get a new deal that will keep him in Denver long term, or is he in a situation when no matter what he does this season, it's not going to be good enough for fans to want him to remain in Denver?

me personally, i believe he had a good season last year considering the circumstances of injuires limiting him, basically learning on the job, and the offensive line play as well as a lack of running game. and for me, i feel if he shows he can build upon last season and can guide the team to a better record and playoffs, as well as avoid injury, if he can do those things I think he would be more than deserving of a new contract.

now, I am not saying let's not bring in competition for him, I am saying that after last season he deserves a shot to become our long term option at QB.The way I look at it is...
If we don't sign someone else with experience to compete or start for the Broncos as our new QB, Orton most likely will be the starter.
Even if we draft a good QB, Orton will still be our QB.
So, most likely he will be resigned and the terms of the deal will directly be linked to the confidence the Broncos have in him to allow for some time to evaluate whether he's the guy we want here for the long haul.

I don't think he's who I want to lead our team. Some may argue that another year in the system will provide a day and night change in his performance.
I still think he's still be the same QB he was last year.
He lacks a lot of the intangibles that make good QB's great overtime...

Dagmar
02-26-2010, 07:49 PM
Dude you are a riot. His stats are no more impressive then Jay Cutlers 08 stats and we all know what you think about him. Both had career years and both lead the Broncos to 8 wins.

I think Jay Cutler was a good QB, an exciting QB who took too many risks and had a HORRIBLE attitude. Still do. Stop lumping people on this site in column A or column B. There are another 24 letters.

ZONA
02-26-2010, 09:24 PM
Orton needs to not suck.

And I don't even want to hear the arguments that say he's a legitimate NFL starter.

I'm not going to say he is, but if you don't want to hear them, why in the hell do you come in here posting? Of course there are guys here who support him and they have their right to say why.

Cool Breeze
02-26-2010, 09:24 PM
I was gonna say play like Payton Manning and date hot chicks

rastaman
02-26-2010, 09:25 PM
Orton will NEVER be good enough for "certain" fans.

Honestly, a qb rating of 85 and up and a 2 to 1 TD to INT rating...

Orton....Him So Special.....Him a real keeper---------CHAMPIONSHIP! !Booya!

bronco610
02-26-2010, 09:28 PM
I know their is a big line between the Orton backers and the people who want Orton out and someone else brought in. With that in mind, I am curious what everyone feels Orton needs to accomplish in 2010 for fans and the franchise to want him to get a new deal that will keep him in Denver long term, or is he in a situation when no matter what he does this season, it's not going to be good enough for fans to want him to remain in Denver?
me personally, i believe he had a good season last year considering the circumstances of injuires limiting him, basically learning on the job, and the offensive line play as well as a lack of running game. and for me, i feel if he shows he can build upon last season and can guide the team to a better record and playoffs, as well as avoid injury, if he can do those things I think he would be more than deserving of a new contract.

now, I am not saying let's not bring in competition for him, I am saying that after last season he deserves a shot to become our long term option at QB.

Lets see if I can answer the original question without the topic becoming muddeled in some love or hate opinion of Orton.

I dont believe Orton can win over the fans totally. Too much of the fanbase that came on board with Elway still want the gun slinger type with a strong arm as QB. I dont believe McD's offense is going to allow that.

Even if Orton won a Super Bowl for Denver there are too many here that would view him in a Trent Dilfer type of catagory.

bronco610
02-26-2010, 11:48 PM
I've killed another thread !!!!!

strafen
02-26-2010, 11:56 PM
Lets see if I can answer the original question without the topic becoming muddeled in some love or hate opinion of Orton.

I dont believe Orton can win over the fans totally. Too much of the fanbase that came on board with Elway still want the gun slinger type with a strong arm as QB. I dont believe McD's offense is going to allow that.

Even if Orton won a Super Bowl for Denver there are too many here that would view him in a Trent Dilfer type of catagory.Well, close...
People around here know a good QB when they see one.
We don't see Orton as being in that category.
There's more to being a QB than just numbers. It's the relentless fire to win and improvise when things crumble around him. It's to make things happen, it's to make a play when there was none, it's all about those intangibles that certain QB's have and some don't. The things that are impossible to teach or learn.

Can Orton play QB?
Yes he can. That's why he's an NFL QB, but he's just another QB...

strafen
02-26-2010, 11:56 PM
I've killed another thread !!!!! I know. ROFL!

bronco610
02-27-2010, 12:12 AM
Well, close...
People around here know a good QB when they see one.
We don't see Orton as being that category.There's more to being a QB than just numbers. It's the relentless fire to win and improvise when things crumble around him. It's to make things happen, it;s to make a play when there was none, it's all about hose intangibles that certain QB's have and some don't. The things that are impossible to teach or learn.

Can Orton play QB?
Yes he can. That's why he's an NFL QB, but he's just another QB...

I disagree, some of the people here [B]believe[B] they know a good QB when they see one. I stand by my statement. Mcd. is not going to have a gunslinger as QB. That doesnt mean the Broncos cant win, it just means Orton will never reach a status where the fans are all behind him. That was what the OP wanted to know.

Drek
02-27-2010, 12:14 AM
Well, close...
People around here know a good QB when they see one.
We don't see Orton as being that category.

Thats a laugher.

I see people on here all the time talking about how Orton can never be a great QB because he doesn't have elite arm strength and he can't scramble around in the pocket.

The three best QBs in the NFL are Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees. Orton's arm strength and mobility stack up pretty well with all three of them.

Broncos fans need to face reality. The days of gun slinger QBs who scramble out of the pocket to rifle a pass 45 yards down field across their body a full 6 seconds after the snap are gone. Defenses today are too good at containing the QB and getting to the QB.

Successful QBs today need the traits Kurt Warner brought back with him from arena football to the Rams. They need to make pre-snap reads effectively, go through their progressions exceptionally fast after the snap, be an anticipatory passer, and have a very quick, accurate release. Everything else is window dressing.

As for Orton - he gets a legit extension when he gets us into the playoffs. I'm expecting a QB rating of around 90 next year regardless, its less than 5% improvement on his 2009 QB rating to make it there, but to get a real starting QB contract he needs to take this team beyond a .500 record, into the playoffs, and he needs to be healthy when he does it. No more ankle injuries or we can just write him off and move on to someone else, because like most QBs when his ankle is all jacked up he can't throw for ****.

Los Broncos
02-27-2010, 12:20 AM
First having a winning season and a deep playoff run.

But for a lot of fans that just isn't good enough.

strafen
02-27-2010, 12:24 AM
Thats a laugher.

I see people on here all the time talking about how Orton can never be a great QB because he doesn't have elite arm strength and he can't scramble around in the pocket.

The three best QBs in the NFL are Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees. Orton's arm strength and mobility stack up pretty well with all three of them.

I didn't say anything about his arm strength.
I did mention improvisation which equates to movement in and out of the pocket to either keep a play alive or make a play where there was none.

You could justly compare Orton's arm to Tom Brady, but to say he's got the mobility and arm strength of Drew Brees or Peyton Manning it's real a laughter man, and you know it
Still those guys have the intangibles I mentioned Orton doesn't have

strafen
02-27-2010, 12:29 AM
Drek, another thing I forgot to add...
While Orton's arm strength is not as bad as advertised, still he's not the type of QB who can throw the ball deep consistently and accurately.
That's not his game of course, so even if he can throw the deep ball once in a while he's still not a threat in that department...

strafen
02-27-2010, 12:35 AM
I disagree, some of the people here [B]believe[B] they know a good QB when they see one. I stand by my statement. Mcd. is not going to have a gunslinger as QB. That doesnt mean the Broncos cant win, it just means Orton will never reach a status where the fans are all behind him. That was what the OP wanted to know.Yeah, that's true.
I don't think many people are ready to endorse Orton yet.
I know I'm not just because I've seen enough to know he's got limitations that hinder his game when we need him to play his guts out for a needed win.

I'm not saying he's not courageous of doesn't have guts, I'm talking about displayed fire and urgency when hopes seem all but gone...

bronco610
02-27-2010, 12:35 AM
I didn't say anything about his arm strength.
I did mention improvisation which equates to movement in and out of the pocket to either keep a play alive or make a play where there was none.

You could justly compare Orton's arm to Tom Brady, but to say he's got the mobility and arm strength of Drew Brees or Peyton Manning it's real a laughter man, and you know it Still those guys have the intangibles I mentioned Orton doesn't have

Remember what I said about insults. You have some decent posts but if drek thinks ortons talents stack up your not going to change his stance by saying something in your opinion that can be construed as an insult.

bronco610
02-27-2010, 12:40 AM
Yeah, that's true.
I don't think many people are ready to endorse Orton yet.
I know I'm not just because I've seen enough to know he's got limitations that hinder his game when we need him to play his guts out for a needed win.

I'm not saying he's not courageous of doesn't have guts, I'm talking about displayed fire and urgency when hopes seem all but gone...

And thats the point, Orton may be able to but thats not what Mcd calls as far as plays.

strafen
02-27-2010, 12:41 AM
Remember what I said about insults. You have some decent posts but if drek thinks ortons talents stack up your not going to change his stance by saying something in your opinion that can be construed as an insult.Here we go. I didn't say it was a laughter to insult him, I said it because he felt what I've said was a laughter, so I found ironic he's comparing Orton's physical attributes to Brady, Brees, Manning all superbowl winning QB's

bronco610
02-27-2010, 12:44 AM
Here we go. I didn't say it was a laughter to insult him, I said it because he felt what I've said was a laughter, so I found ironic he's comparing Orton's physical attributes to Brady, Brees, Manning all superbowl winning QB's

If thats what Drek thinks okay, but you see my point about how one small statement can derail a thread.

You know what you meant but I read it a different way. BB's are not exactly perfect communication.

Drek
02-27-2010, 12:53 AM
I didn't say anything about his arm strength.
I did mention improvisation which equates to movement in and out of the pocket to either keep a play alive or make a play where there was none.

You could justly compare Orton's arm to Tom Brady, but to say he's got the mobility and arm strength of Drew Brees or Peyton Manning it's real a laughter man, and you know it
Still those guys have the intangibles I mentioned Orton doesn't have

Did I say you commented on arm strength?

You outright stated that Broncos fans know good QBs. Yet much of the wailing on this board, not necessarily by you, regards Orton's arm strength.

And FYI, in college Orton played for the same team in the same system directly behind Drew Brees and had a noticeably stronger arm there. And Peyton Manning has a mediocre arm at best.

The big difference between those guys (and Tom Brady) when going deep compared to Orton? They always throw deep from a good position, never from a poorly planted spot or where they can't step up in the pocket and execute a textbook throw.

As for mobility, Drew Brees is the only one of those three with more mobility than Orton, and he's not exactly Mike Vick himself. Tom Brady only leaves the pocket on designed roll outs which are few and far between, and typically ineffective for the Pats. Peyton Manning flat out never does. Manning might be the least mobile QB in the NFL today, and Tom Brady would make the top 5.

Orton needs better physical conditioning for sure, but many QBs do. What he most needs to develop though is the kind of mental understanding of the offensive system and how it applies to coverage that will let him anticipate on the field, not just react. All last season he was throwing when he could see the numbers where he could see the numbers, not anticipating when and where a guy was going to come open and having the ball waiting for him in stride.

If he makes that mental adjustment then all the talk of arm strength and mobility will fade away as he'll be a significantly more successful QB and look like one of the top 10 QBs in the NFL.

strafen
02-27-2010, 12:53 AM
If thats what Drek thinks okay, but you see my point about how one small statement can derail a thread.

You know what you meant but I read it a different way. BB's are not exactly perfect communication.I gotcha bud!
No harm done... :thumbsup:

bronco610
02-27-2010, 01:08 AM
Did I say you commented on arm strength?

You outright stated that Broncos fans know good QBs. Yet much of the wailing on this board, not necessarily by you, regards Orton's arm strength.

And FYI, in college Orton played for the same team in the same system directly behind Drew Brees and had a noticeably stronger arm there. And Peyton Manning has a mediocre arm at best.

The big difference between those guys (and Tom Brady) when going deep compared to Orton? They always throw deep from a good position, never from a poorly planted spot or where they can't step up in the pocket and execute a textbook throw.
As for mobility, Drew Brees is the only one of those three with more mobility than Orton, and he's not exactly Mike Vick himself. Tom Brady only leaves the pocket on designed roll outs which are few and far between, and typically ineffective for the Pats. Peyton Manning flat out never does. Manning might be the least mobile QB in the NFL today, and Tom Brady would make the top 5.

Orton needs better physical conditioning for sure, but many QBs do. What he most needs to develop though is the kind of mental understanding of the offensive system and how it applies to coverage that will let him anticipate on the field, not just react. All last season he was throwing when he could see the numbers where he could see the numbers, not anticipating when and where a guy was going to come open and having the ball waiting for him in stride.

If he makes that mental adjustment then all the talk of arm strength and mobility will fade away as he'll be a significantly more successful QB and look like one of the top 10 QBs in the NFL.

Interior line was a problem this year.

Hopefully second year in the system helps.

But I stand by my prediction that he will not be able to win over all the fans.

strafen
02-27-2010, 01:16 AM
Interior line was a problem this year.

Hopefully second year in the system helps.

But I stand by my prediction that he will not be able to win over all the fans.

I don't think another year in the system will make a huge difference.
He may get better in his decision making abilities to release the ball with more authority where it needs to be, but the system will not transform Orton into something he's really not, or never been. That's my point.

bronco610
02-27-2010, 01:22 AM
I don't think another year in the system will make a huge difference.
He may get better in his decision making abilities to release the ball with more authority where it needs to be, but the system will not transform Orton into something he's really not, or never been. That's my point.

The game of football is about moving the chains, if he is better at releasing the ball with more authority where it needs to be as you say it will move the chains and Orton will be more succesful. He will be percieved that he is better.
Going to bed. Good Night!

DBroncos4life
02-27-2010, 01:25 AM
I don't think another year in the system will make a huge difference.
He may get better in his decision making abilities to release the ball with more authority where it needs to be, but the system will not transform Orton into something he's really not, or never been. That's my point.

You are comical. You know very little about Orton and you never will. To think that Orton will NOT get better from year one in a system to year two points to out the fact that you know very little about football period. Orton went from the Bears joke of a system to the complicated McD system and improved. Why in the world is he going to regress after understanding the play book? He is going to improve period. How much he does improve will factor into what we do contract wise. You can sit there argue all you want but Orton didn't just get lucky his first year in this system.

strafen
02-27-2010, 01:32 AM
You are comical. You know very little about Orton and you never will. To think that Orton will NOT get better from year one in a system to year two points to out the fact that you know very little about football period. Orton went from the Bears joke of a system to the complicated McD system and improved. Why in the world is he going to regress after understanding the play book? He is going to improve period. How much he does improve will factor into what we do contract wise. You can sit there argue all you want but Orton didn't just get lucky his first year in this system.Woe, woe ,woe...stop the presses there bud. Calm down!
Understand what I've said.
I said he may get better at the system with one year under his belt.
The system as we saw it was not that complicated to start with.
What my point was is that an extra year in the system is not going to transform Orton (physical attributes wise) into something he's never been.
I don't need to have a master in football education to know that, and neither do you.
The system is not going to improve his mobility if he's never been mobile for example....

BroncoMan4ever
02-27-2010, 02:26 AM
Well, close...
People around here know a good QB when they see one.
We don't see Orton as being in that category.
There's more to being a QB than just numbers. It's the relentless fire to win and improvise when things crumble around him. It's to make things happen, it's to make a play when there was none, it's all about those intangibles that certain QB's have and some don't. The things that are impossible to teach or learn.
Can Orton play QB?
Yes he can. That's why he's an NFL QB, but he's just another QB...

so in your opinion was Jake Plummer a good QB while in Denver?

because all he did was win games and get us to the playoffs every single season except the year Shanahan ****ed him for Cutler. he was one of the most competitive guys you could ever meet, winning was all he wanted, when **** broke down around him, he was the one improvising and doing everything necessary to try and make something happen, he also had the respect and was loved by his teammates.

Plummer falls perfectly into the ideal of what you call a good QB

so, in your opinion was Plummer a good QB while he was in Denver?

Lolad
02-27-2010, 04:50 AM
The three best QBs in the NFL are Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees. Orton's arm strength and mobility stack up pretty well with all three of them.



Did you seriously just compare Orton's arm strength with Brady, Manning, and Brees and say they were about even? Hilarious!

ALL three QB's can hit a WR in stride more than 10 yards down the field CONSISTENTLY!

They can make things happen. Unlike Orton, who can't even walk for a 1st down on 3rd and 2 in the eagles game with nobody in front of him. Instead he decides to throw the ball in the dirt. on 3rd and 15 the next series with nobody in front of him he decides to run, but is stopped 5 yards short. He lacks the physical and mental tools to even be in the same conversation as the QB's you just listed.

Drek
02-27-2010, 05:58 AM
Did you seriously just compare Orton's arm strength with Brady, Manning, and Brees and say they were about even? Hilarious!

ALL three QB's can hit a WR in stride more than 10 yards down the field CONSISTENTLY!

They can make things happen. Unlike Orton, who can't even walk for a 1st down on 3rd and 2 in the eagles game with nobody in front of him. Instead he decides to throw the ball in the dirt. on 3rd and 15 the next series with nobody in front of him he decides to run, but is stopped 5 yards short. He lacks the physical and mental tools to even be in the same conversation as the QB's you just listed.

1. the examples of Orton not making things happen that you gave are in no way connected with arm strength, FYI.

2. Yes, I did compare Orton's arm strength with them, because as a collegian the only one who threw as hard as Orton was Manning.

Its great that you can't tell the difference between arm strength and effective passing. It underscores my point that Broncos fans generally don't know **** all about what it takes to play QB in the NFL TODAY and instead try to gauge every QB they see by how well he fills the exact physical talents they saw in Elway.

Every QB in the NFL can throw a pass 15-20 yards down field with consistency from an arm strength standpoint. The separation in play in today's NFL has almost nothing to do with arm strength. It is almost entirely a product of what the QB has between the ears. I outlined the points previously, they aren't that hard to grasp.

Peyton Manning is an average armed QB who isn't even particularly accurate. The reason he's got to make due with guys like Collie and Garcon for large stretches of the season is partially tied to the fact that he gets his receivers ****ing KILLED. But he gets them killed while making a big completion. He does this because he is the single best anticipatory thrower in the NFL today. He knows exactly when his guys are going to be coming open and he'll put the ball at that location exactly when the opening forms so that his guys can make a play.

Drew Brees does the same thing. He doesn't have quite the sense of when guys will break open like Manning (partially due to less time with his WR corps and less time in the offensive system) but his elite throwing accuracy within 20 yards allows him to be a split second behind Manning, but only that.

Tom Brady is another example of this, obviously. There is nothing physically exceptional about Tom Brady when compared to other NFL QBs. He's completely a product of his mental knowledge of how to read and dissect opposing defenses.

This is why physically gifted QBs like McNabb, Favre, etc. are not consistent winners in this league. They make it to the playoffs with regularity, but in the playoffs they face superior defenses, and as they have pressure put on them their reactionary passing leads to mistakes. Sometimes they have mistake free games and look amazing, other times they singlehandedly cost their team a chance to advance. They can not match the consistency of the anticipatory passers despite far superior raw athletic talent.

But keep believing the myth that being an elite QB means you have an elite arm.

WolfpackGuy
02-27-2010, 06:38 AM
In no particular order, win the Super Bowl and not trip over his own feet.

baja
02-27-2010, 06:48 AM
There is no way I would give Kyle Orton a long-term deal right now.

A one year contract is by far the smartest option for 2010.

If Orton comes out in 2010 and plays great football and takes the team to the playoffs, then they can look into it....but the smart move is a one year deal to see if Orton has hit his ceiling in regards to potential and performance.

This!

We have too many greater needs than QB. The best thing for the Broncos is sign Orton for a year and use the draft picks/free agent money to build good lines O & D. We need two starters on the O line and a difference maker on the D line and help in the middle. That's four quality players we need to fine.

Lolad
02-27-2010, 10:30 AM
1. the examples of Orton not making things happen that you gave are in no way connected with arm strength, FYI.

2. Yes, I did compare Orton's arm strength with them, because as a collegian the only one who threw as hard as Orton was Manning.

Its great that you can't tell the difference between arm strength and effective passing. It underscores my point that Broncos fans generally don't know **** all about what it takes to play QB in the NFL TODAY and instead try to gauge every QB they see by how well he fills the exact physical talents they saw in Elway.

Every QB in the NFL can throw a pass 15-20 yards down field with consistency from an arm strength standpoint. The separation in play in today's NFL has almost nothing to do with arm strength. It is almost entirely a product of what the QB has between the ears. I outlined the points previously, they aren't that hard to grasp.

Peyton Manning is an average armed QB who isn't even particularly accurate. The reason he's got to make due with guys like Collie and Garcon for large stretches of the season is partially tied to the fact that he gets his receivers ****ing KILLED. But he gets them killed while making a big completion. He does this because he is the single best anticipatory thrower in the NFL today. He knows exactly when his guys are going to be coming open and he'll put the ball at that location exactly when the opening forms so that his guys can make a play.

Drew Brees does the same thing. He doesn't have quite the sense of when guys will break open like Manning (partially due to less time with his WR corps and less time in the offensive system) but his elite throwing accuracy within 20 yards allows him to be a split second behind Manning, but only that.

Tom Brady is another example of this, obviously. There is nothing physically exceptional about Tom Brady when compared to other NFL QBs. He's completely a product of his mental knowledge of how to read and dissect opposing defenses.

This is why physically gifted QBs like McNabb, Favre, etc. are not consistent winners in this league. They make it to the playoffs with regularity, but in the playoffs they face superior defenses, and as they have pressure put on them their reactionary passing leads to mistakes. Sometimes they have mistake free games and look amazing, other times they singlehandedly cost their team a chance to advance. They can not match the consistency of the anticipatory passers despite far superior raw athletic talent.

But keep believing the myth that being an elite QB means you have an elite arm.

I didn't even want to debate the arm strength issue because EVERYBODY except for you thinks that Orton is on par with the class you mentioned.

You claim Manning is not an accurate passer yet in the same sentence you say "He knows exactly when his guys are going to be coming open and he'll put the ball at that location exactly when the opening forms so that his guys can make a play." He is the most accurate QB in the NFL name 1 better please.

Orton is NOT accurate consistently at all, he doesn't hit his guys in stride he barely did all year. This issue has been talked about forever now you're trying to reinvent the damn wheel claiming Orton was consistent. I don't care about his arm strength in his collegiate years this is the NFL! His peers have surpassed him. If we were to make a poll of accurate QB's, orton would be ranked in the middle where he belongs... AVERAGE. It's laughable that you think otherwise but that's your opinion.

strafen
02-27-2010, 10:36 AM
In no particular order, win the Super Bowl and not trip over his own feet.That's what opponents tell Orton: "Don't fall and have a good trip" :D

Drek
02-27-2010, 11:26 AM
I didn't even want to debate the arm strength issue because EVERYBODY except for you thinks that Orton is on par with the class you mentioned.

You claim Manning is not an accurate passer yet in the same sentence you say "He knows exactly when his guys are going to be coming open and he'll put the ball at that location exactly when the opening forms so that his guys can make a play." He is the most accurate QB in the NFL name 1 better please.

Orton is NOT accurate consistently at all, he doesn't hit his guys in stride he barely did all year. This issue has been talked about forever now you're trying to reinvent the damn wheel claiming Orton was consistent. I don't care about his arm strength in his collegiate years this is the NFL! His peers have surpassed him. If we were to make a poll of accurate QB's, orton would be ranked in the middle where he belongs... AVERAGE. It's laughable that you think otherwise but that's your opinion.

Do you lump all things in your life together so tangentially?

Peyton Manning fits his passes into the window of opportunity from a timing standpoint, but it might be anywhere in that window physically. How many times have you seen Dallas Clark have to put out full extension to pull in a ball that was actually over thrown, only to get clean the hell out after the catch and still hold onto it? Manning does that to his receivers all the time. He's precise in that he does put the ball within a catcheable area, but he rarely puts it in the perfect spot.

Also, saying that Orton is not accurate and then using his inability to hit guys in stride doesn't really work. Hitting WRs in stride is a product of anticipating where they will be when they get open and the ball catches up to their route, it isn't about putting the nose of the ball inside a bulls eye.

And this once again gets back to the fact that all the stuff you keep saying about Orton aren't actually physical problems, they're decision making/mental problems. He doesn't out think the competition and in today's NFL that is essential to be an elite QB. He's got adequate physical tools, he just doesn't to this point have the mental understanding of the game to allow him to pick defenses apart.

SouthStndJunkie
02-27-2010, 11:31 AM
This!

We have too many greater needs than QB. The best thing for the Broncos is sign Orton for a year and use the draft picks/free agent money to build good lines O & D. We need two starters on the O line and a difference maker on the D line and help in the middle. That's four quality players we need to fine.

I'm still not opposed to taking a QB prospect in the 2nd or 3rd round.

TheDave
02-27-2010, 11:34 AM
Peyton Manning is an average armed QB who isn't even particularly accurate.

WOW... your credibility officially died with that statement.



As for the OP, I'm not sure at this point. Orton gets one more year to show what he can do. Right now he is good enough for the regular season and should be able to get us to the post season. After that, he has to prove to the staff he is more than just a caretaker. He has to show that he can be a difference maker.

strafen
02-27-2010, 11:48 AM
WOW... your credibility officially died with that statement.



As for the OP, I'm not sure at this point. Orton gets one more year to show what he can do. Right now he is good enough for the regular season and should be able to get us to the post season. After that, he has to prove to the staff he is more than just a caretaker. He has to show that he can be a difference maker.I didn't want to hammer him for that comment.

I agree with you. I think he gets another year and for as much as that bugs me, it is what it is.
I'm sticking with my statement that another year won't make Orton any better in the areas he's already terrible at.
One more year and people will realized we have thrown two years down the drain when we could've had a young QB already in development...

Florida_Bronco
02-27-2010, 11:51 AM
WOW... your credibility officially died with that statement. Which part of that is incorrect?

TDmvp
02-27-2010, 11:51 AM
What does Orton need to do to receive a new deal in Denver?



A miracle ?

TheDave
02-27-2010, 12:00 PM
Which part of that is incorrect?

all of it...

Dagmar
02-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Drek you are becoming one of the best posters on this site, don't let some peoples blind hate put you off bud!

Florida_Bronco
02-27-2010, 12:26 PM
all of it...

Sorry but I disagree. Manning most certainly does not have great arm strength. That's been known since he was in college and it hasn't changed much in the pros. As for his accuracy issues, well Drek pretty much explained that one and I know for a fact Mediator has expressed those same exact thoughts.

Drek you are becoming one of the best posters on this site, don't let some peoples blind hate put you off bud!

He's been one of the best for quite some time now. ^5

TheDave
02-27-2010, 12:43 PM
Sorry but I disagree. Manning most certainly does not have great arm strength. That's been known since he was in college and it hasn't changed much in the pros. As for his accuracy issues, well Drek pretty much explained that one and I know for a fact Mediator has expressed those same exact thoughts.


Fair enough...

I'll be sure to ignore both your opinion and Dreks when it comes to QB's.

Sorry to be a dick, but that is just one of the dumbest thing I've ever seen on this site. I've watched all of manning's college and pro career and there is nothing average about his arm or accuracy.

strafen
02-27-2010, 12:45 PM
The problem I have is how Orton gets put on a pedestal here.
I truly believe we could've had Ryan Leaf here out of retirement instead of Orton, and the same people feverishly defending Orton would be defending Ryan Leaf with the same passion.

Guys, Orton is not a QB that's going to do anything special while here.
What did you guys see in Orton that inspires confidence for you to say we need this guy to be our QB next season?

Come on. Call it hate if you want, but I just can't see Orton for more of what he really is. He's average at best on his very best day...

baja
02-27-2010, 12:45 PM
Fair enough...

I'll be sure to ignore both your opinion and Dreks when it comes to QB's.

Sorry to be a dick, but that is just one of the dumbest thing I've ever seen on this site. I've watched all of manning's college and pro career and there is nothing average about his arm or accuracy.

guaranteed first ballot HOF and they call him average and not accurate. Go figure.

HAT
02-27-2010, 01:39 PM
To answer the original question:

2010
560 attempts x 65% = 364 completions
12 Y/C x 364 = 4,368 yards
24+ TD
12- INT

Those type of numbers translate roughly into a top 8-10 QB and worthy of an extension IMO.


Orton in 2009:
541 attempts x 62.1% = 336 completions
11.3 Y/C x 336 = 3802 yards
21 TD
12 INT

That is not too big of jump to expect in year two in the system with what should be a better all around offense.

To hit the 2010 numbers I projected......

He needs to improve from 21/34 per game to 23/35.
Each completion needs to go for 25" more than they did in 2009.
Leave 3 less TD's on the field over the course of 4 months.
Simply throw no more INT's than 2009.

Easy.

BroncoMan4ever
02-27-2010, 01:43 PM
The problem I have is how Orton gets put on a pedestal here.
I truly believe we could've had Ryan Leaf here out of retirement instead of Orton, and the same people feverishly defending Orton would be defending Ryan Leaf with the same passion.

Guys, Orton is not a QB that's going to do anything special while here.
What did you guys see in Orton that inspires confidence for you to say we need this guy to be our QB next season?

Come on. Call it hate if you want, but I just can't see Orton for more of what he really is. He's average at best on his very best day...

look at the NE game early in the season. the guy had ice flowing through his veins. two drives of 90 or more yards for TDs plus a long drive for FG to win it in overtime. nothing special, when the game was on the line, and a big game, being the Pats Broncos connection, on national TV, when the league was questioning whether we were for real or not, during that kind of game in that atmosphere, with the game on the line, Orton was ice, and got the job done, and was much more than just average.

he has the ability to be a top 10 QB in this league

Drek
02-27-2010, 01:44 PM
guaranteed first ballot HOF and they call him average and not accurate. Go figure.

I call him that because from a physical talent standpoint its the truth.

He's just far, far, more advanced mentally than all but a handful of his peers.

Donovan McNabb, Brett Favre, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Chad Henne, Matt Hasselback (when healthy), Kerry Collins (when sober), Kurt Warner, Matt Schaub, and Trent Edwards are all more accurate QBs than Peyton Manning.

If you asked any one of them to put a football through a football sized hole at 15-20 yards they would all do it more consistently than Peyton Manning when standing in shorts and a t-shirt.

Add 11 guys trying to pick you off or drive you into the turf and change that football sized hole to a three foot by three foot moving box and Peyton Manning distinguishes himself.

That is by the very definition of the two words is precision, not accuracy.

He's the guy at the the bar who never hits a bulls eye on a dart board but moves around the inner circle like clockwork with no wasted throws. Or the guy who never pulls off trick shots on a pool table but instead just keeps downing balls until he's ran the table.

What Peyton Manning does is impressive as all hell, but its got very little to do with arm strength or accuracy. Every scout in the NFL said that Ryan Leaf had him beat on the former in spades and well enough to quantify in the later. Yet Leaf's NFL career was shorter than the already brief average, while Manning will likely play until he's 40, if not beyond.

Peyton Manning is a sure fire first ballot HOF because he out thinks every defensive coordinator almost every time he steps on the field. Physically he does just enough.

Jay Cutler has a howitzer for an arm but Manning, Brady, and Brees all throw deep more often and with more success. They do it because they know when, where, and how to go deep. You never see them going 40 yards down field when they don't have room to step up into the pocket and display text book mechanics. You never see them trying to force a ball into a window that opens up before they throw the football. They are not more physically talented than Jay Cutler, but they are much more advanced in football IQ.

I'm not trying to stroke Orton's balls here by saying that he's got comparable physical skills to those three guys, I'm just stating the facts. He does, but then so do most of the starting QBs in the NFL and a good number of backups. They wouldn't be in the NFL if they couldn't throw a football at an elite level. But once at that level the extra bit of juice you get from being the most accurate or the most powerful is meaningless compared to how well you understand the game.

That is what Orton lacks, needs, and very probably will never get. A high level understanding of his offensive scheme and any defense he sees across from it that borders on clairvoyance. Until he shows that he'll be an average to good starter but never anything special. The same applies to Jay Cutler who has probably the most raw physical talent of any QB in the NFL but also lacks that same understanding.

strafen
02-27-2010, 01:47 PM
To answer the original question:

2010
560 attempts x 65% = 364 completions
12 Y/C x 364 = 4,368 yards
24+ TD
12- INT

Those type of numbers translate roughly into a top 8-10 QB and worthy of an extension IMO.


Orton in 2009:
541 attempts x 62.1% = 336 completions
11.3 Y/C x 336 = 3802 yards
21 TD
12 INT

That is not too big of jump to expect in year two in the system with what should be a better all around offense.

To hit the 2010 numbers I projected......

He needs to improve from 21/34 per game to 23/35.
Each completion needs to go for 25" more than they did in 2009.
Leave 3 less TD's on the field over the course of 4 months.
Simply throw no more INT's than 2009.

Easy.It's funny how people use stats to favor their argument one way or another depending what their point is...
For example, the numbers that Orton put up do not reflect his playing on the field.
Way more than half the 8 wins we had were not attributed to Ortons plays.
I can only recall two games tops where he was a factor.

Same thing with Moreno, his anemic numbers are discounted as a true reflection of the type of player he really is. That's according to his supporters.

baja
02-27-2010, 01:59 PM
I call him that because from a physical talent standpoint its the truth.

He's just far, far, more advanced mentally than all but a handful of his peers.

Donovan McNabb, Brett Favre, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Chad Henne, Matt Hasselback (when healthy), Kerry Collins (when sober), Kurt Warner, Matt Schaub, and Trent Edwards are all more accurate QBs than Peyton Manning.

If you asked any one of them to put a football through a football sized hole at 15-20 yards they would all do it more consistently than Peyton Manning when standing in shorts and a t-shirt.

<b>Add 11 guys trying to pick you off or drive you into the turf and change that football sized hole to a three foot by three foot moving box and Peyton Manning distinguishes himself.

That is by the very definition of the two words is precision, not accuracy.</b>

He's the guy at the the bar who never hits a bulls eye on a dart board but moves around the inner circle like clockwork with no wasted throws. Or the guy who never pulls off trick shots on a pool table but instead just keeps downing balls until he's ran the table.

What Peyton Manning does is impressive as all hell, but its got very little to do with arm strength or accuracy. Every scout in the NFL said that Ryan Leaf had him beat on the former in spades and well enough to quantify in the later. Yet Leaf's NFL career was shorter than the already brief average, while Manning will likely play until he's 40, if not beyond.

Peyton Manning is a sure fire first ballot HOF because he out thinks every defensive coordinator almost every time he steps on the field. Physically he does just enough.

Jay Cutler has a howitzer for an arm but Manning, Brady, and Brees all throw deep more often and with more success. They do it because they know when, where, and how to go deep. You never see them going 40 yards down field when they don't have room to step up into the pocket and display text book mechanics. You never see them trying to force a ball into a window that opens up before they throw the football. They are not more physically talented than Jay Cutler, but they are much more advanced in football IQ.

I'm not trying to stroke Orton's balls here by saying that he's got comparable physical skills to those three guys, I'm just stating the facts. He does, but then so do most of the starting QBs in the NFL and a good number of backups. They wouldn't be in the NFL if they couldn't throw a football at an elite level. But once at that level the extra bit of juice you get from being the most accurate or the most powerful is meaningless compared to how well you understand the game.

That is what Orton lacks, needs, and very probably will never get. A high level understanding of his offensive scheme and any defense he sees across from it that borders on clairvoyance. Until he shows that he'll be an average to good starter but never anything special. The same applies to Jay Cutler who has probably the most raw physical talent of any QB in the NFL but also lacks that same understanding.

You say potato I say potatto

No offense Derk but I call that accuracy.

HAT
02-27-2010, 02:09 PM
It's funny how people use stats to favor their argument one way or another depending what their point is...
.

I don't have an argument. I simply answered the question presented in the thread title.

If Orton produces similar numbers to what I posted, I believe he will receive a new deal in Denver. (Deservedly)

Drek
02-27-2010, 02:09 PM
You say potato I say potatto

No offense Derk but I call that accuracy.

Great, but its not.

Accuracy is the ability to have your result as close to the target goal as possible in one single attempt.

Precision is the ability to consistently get within an acceptable margin of error from the target goal.

Two entirely different things. Manning has precision, not accuracy.

The reason that matters is because of where it comes from. Precise passing is a product of having flawless mechanics, understanding all situations you are in, knowing what you have to do, how you have to do it, and executing.

Accuracy is more of a natural born talent. It can be refined but only to a certain degree. It can be "taught" about as effectively as arm strength.

Jay Cutler throws a ton of picks that come on incredibly accurately thrown passes. It just so happens that the spot he thought he wanted to football wasn't where he should have actually put it.

Its tied to whether someone is an anticipatory passer or a reactionary passer. Mike Mayock was talking about this just yesterday on Sirius. When he played college ball against Marino and Elway they where both reactionary passers, but in today's NFL the elite guys are anticipatory passers because the defensive side of the ball is so much more intricately schemed and so much more athletic. He's high on Bradford because Bradford already shows that understanding of anticipatory passing, putting the ball where the opening will be when it will be open, not just throwing the ball as soon as you can see the numbers on your receiver's jersey.

Its a change in what the NFL demands of its QBs, and the teams that have met that change are winning titles while everyone else is trying to figure out why they can't get it done.

We have Kurt Warner to thank for it. He was a complete scrub his first time through the league. When he came back from the Arena league his arm hadn't gotten any stronger and he'd only gotten marginally more accurate, but due to the tight confines and style of play in the Arena league he had mastered the art of anticipatory throwing and refined his mechanics enough to make good on those mental skills. When he got his chance to show it in the NFL he lit the league on fire and the best passing teams have been working to copy that ever since.

baja
02-27-2010, 02:14 PM
Great, but its not.

Accuracy is the ability to have your result as close to the target goal as possible in one single attempt.

Precision is the ability to consistently get within an acceptable margin of error from the target goal.

Two entirely different things. Manning has precision, not accuracy.

The reason that matters is because of where it comes from. Precise passing is a product of having flawless mechanics, understanding all situations you are in, knowing what you have to do, how you have to do it, and executing.

Accuracy is more of a natural born talent. It can be refined but only to a certain degree. It can be "taught" about as effectively as arm strength.

Jay Cutler throws a ton of picks that come on incredibly accurately thrown passes. It just so happens that the spot he thought he wanted to football wasn't where he should have actually put it.

Its tied to whether someone is an anticipatory passer or a reactionary passer. Mike Mayock was talking about this just yesterday on Sirius. When he played college ball against Marino and Elway they where both reactionary passers, but in today's NFL the elite guys are anticipatory passers because the defensive side of the ball is so much more intricately schemed and so much more athletic. He's high on Bradford because Bradford already shows that understanding of anticipatory passing, putting the ball where the opening will be when it will be open, not just throwing the ball as soon as you can see the numbers on your receiver's jersey.

Its a change in what the NFL demands of its QBs, and the teams that have met that change are winning titles while everyone else is trying to figure out why they can't get it done.

We have Kurt Warner to thank for it. He was a complete scrub his first time through the league. When he came back from the Arena league his arm hadn't gotten any stronger and he'd only gotten marginally more accurate, but due to the tight confines and style of play in the Arena league he had mastered the art of anticipatory throwing and refined his mechanics enough to make good on those mental skills. When he got his chance to show it in the NFL he lit the league on fire and the best passing teams have been working to copy that ever since.

I understand your point and appreciate your effort to explain it to me.

Drek
02-27-2010, 02:23 PM
I understand your point and appreciate your effort to explain it to me.

Thanks for your time and willingness to consider what I was posting.

That said, what Orton needs to do in order to get a long term deal is show the kind of football IQ that makes Brady, Manning, and Brees great. Not on that level, but at least a legitimate, sustained dose of it from week to week.

I'm rather skeptical myself. I think he can do it, but he's got to put every waking minute of his off-season into football. That is a high demand of any person and until I see it from him I'm not going to assume he's got that kind of commitment.

We'll know early on though. If Orton is that committed to being an elite QB he'll show up to OTAs in far better physical condition than what he's been in previously through his career, and improvements in his throwing motion, especially a quicker release, should be evident from day one of camp.

Hamrob
02-27-2010, 02:52 PM
I think this is a good question.

For the record, I'm not a big Orton fan. I just don't like his atheletic ability and I haven't really seen the leadership that everyone says he's known for.

That being said, I think basically he has to improve upon last year. He needs to show that he can make plays in critical situations such as 3rd and long and he has to make more plays of 20+ yards.

Looking strictly as stats, you'd think he had a terrific year, but the NFL has changed. This is a throwing league...more than 10 guys threw for over 4K. Orton's year was good, but not very good (in my book).

We have the specialty positions and we'll improve the interier line this year. He will need to throw for approximately 30 TD's and 4,000+ yards and this team will need to win a playoff game.

I think that's what it's going to take. Now, let's examine that: 30 TD's and 4,000+ yards...that will probably place him in the 5-10 range for QB's and winning a playoff game is a must.

If he does this...that's what he'll need to do...he'll get signed to a 5yr deal. That's what I think.

I also think that Brandstrater is our next starting QB.

Drek
02-27-2010, 03:15 PM
I think this is a good question.

For the record, I'm not a big Orton fan. I just don't like his atheletic ability and I haven't really seen the leadership that everyone says he's known for.

That being said, I think basically he has to improve upon last year. He needs to show that he can make plays in critical situations such as 3rd and long and he has to make more plays of 20+ yards.

Looking strictly as stats, you'd think he had a terrific year, but the NFL has changed. This is a throwing league...more than 10 guys threw for over 4K. Orton's year was good, but not very good (in my book).

We have the specialty positions and we'll improve the interier line this year. He will need to throw for approximately 30 TD's and 4,000+ yards and this team will need to win a playoff game.

I think that's what it's going to take. Now, let's examine that: 30 TD's and 4,000+ yards...that will probably place him in the 5-10 range for QB's and winning a playoff game is a must.

If he does this...that's what he'll need to do...he'll get signed to a 5yr deal. That's what I think.

I also think that Brandstrater is our next starting QB.

I agree with your assessment of what Orton needs to produce to get a big contract, but he and Brandstater are about the same age. I don't think Brandstater's career has a ton of starter potential left in it. He's likely going to be McDaniels' vet backup while he grooms his next true starter.

If Tim Tebow slides to round 3 don't be surprised if we grab him too. Last year's draft had some strong indications that Mike Mayock and Josh McDaniels seem to have similar ideas as to what they like in players, and Mayock was on Sirius yesterday saying that the two teams he sees as great fits for Tebow are Minnesota and Denver.

He also said Tebow needed to probably spend two years on the bench being refined and coached up. If he slides within our reach in round 3 I'm betting we jump on him.

If not then I'm almost positive we'll pursue John Skelton out of Furham. He profiles almost exactly like McDaniels previous project QB Kevin O'Connell.

broncogary
02-27-2010, 04:41 PM
If not then I'm almost positive we'll pursue John Skelton out of Furham. He profiles almost exactly like McDaniels previous project QB Kevin O'Connell.

It's not Furham, it's Furburger. :sunshine:

Drek
02-27-2010, 06:24 PM
It's not Furham, it's Furburger. :sunshine:
Fordham actually. ;P

Dedhed
02-27-2010, 07:26 PM
He needs to win playoff games. That is all.

Get to the playoffs and show he can make the Broncos competitive in the post-season, and people will stop whining.

If he can't do that he doesn't deserve another chance.

Cito Pelon
02-27-2010, 11:24 PM
Orton needs to not suck.

And I don't even want to hear the arguments that say he's a legitimate NFL starter.

That doesn't make sense.

If Orton is not a legitimate NFL starter, then there has been several hundred QB's in NFL history that started a bunch of NFL games that were in fact "not legitimate NFL starters".

As for the OP, I think it's clear the staff wants heavy competition for the starting job. Orton will have to make significant improvements getting the ball to the deeper patterns on time and accurately, keeping plays alive a bit longer. If not, he's gonna be replaced ASAP. They don't have to offer him an extension any time soon.

TomServo
02-27-2010, 11:53 PM
lesse, when he has a good D like chicago or denver in the first half of the year hes ok-OK.
when he has to lift the team....he throws two pick sixes, to the same guy.
unless we have an awsome D-all year, kyle orton wont lead any team anywhere

strafen
02-28-2010, 12:00 AM
lesse, when he has a good D like chicago or denver in the first half of the year hes ok-OK.
when he has to lift the team....he throws two pick sixes, to the same guy.
unless we have an awsome D-all year, kyle orton wont lead any team anywhereExactly.
Orton needs a stellar defense for him to have any kind of success.
You can't count on the guy to rally you from a deficit.
Playing catch up is what really exposes Orton's real flaws and how much he leaves to be desired

TomServo
02-28-2010, 12:07 AM
but from All accounts. MCd will give us another year of orton just to prove his point

strafen
02-28-2010, 12:14 AM
but from All accounts. MCd will give us another year of orton just to prove his pointFor some of us the facts are clear, for some, another year is what they need to convince themselves of what we've been saying.
In all honesty, McDaniels will give him another chance, but not without making him earn the starting job next season.
It remains to be seen if anybody would be brought in via the draft, FA, or otherwise, to compete for the job.

BroncoMan4ever
02-28-2010, 12:47 AM
It's funny how people use stats to favor their argument one way or another depending what their point is...
For example, the numbers that Orton put up do not reflect his playing on the field.
Way more than half the 8 wins we had were not attributed to Ortons plays.
I can only recall two games tops where he was a factor.

Same thing with Moreno, his anemic numbers are discounted as a true reflection of the type of player he really is. That's according to his supporters.

football is a team sport and this isn't the NFL of the past where 1 superior player could beat an opponent by himself. Look at Manning, Brees and Brady, supposedly the 3 best in the game today, put them in the league 20 years ago, and they are nowhere near as successful as they are today.

and Moreno's numbers like any back in the league sway with the fact of how well or poor their line played.

i love TD and he is my favorite Bronco ever, but as incredibly awesome as he was, if he had the 2009 Denver Broncos line blocking for him, he wouldn't have been seen as even half as good as we all remember him being. Moreno is in a situation where his numbers will look like ****, not because of him, but because he has no help keeping defenders off of him as soon as he is handed the ball.

BroncoMan4ever
02-28-2010, 12:49 AM
Exactly.
Orton needs a stellar defense for him to have any kind of success.
You can't count on the guy to rally you from a deficit.
Playing catch up is what really exposes Orton's real flaws and how much he leaves to be desired

Orton averaged 10 wins a season while in Chicago and outside of his rookie year when the defense was ranked something like 7th in the league, the rest of his time there, his defenses were ranked in the 20s.

Dedhed
02-28-2010, 07:59 AM
Orton averaged 10 wins a season while in Chicago and outside of his rookie year when the defense was ranked something like 7th in the league, the rest of his time there, his defenses were ranked in the 20s.

Dragster doesn't care about actual facts. He prefers "facts" that are more along the lines of "I don't feel like Orton is a legitimate starter, and some people want to ignore that fact."

He doesn't realize that his opinion doesn't equate to fact.

Hamrob
02-28-2010, 08:22 AM
I agree with your assessment of what Orton needs to produce to get a big contract, but he and Brandstater are about the same age. I don't think Brandstater's career has a ton of starter potential left in it. He's likely going to be McDaniels' vet backup while he grooms his next true starter.

If Tim Tebow slides to round 3 don't be surprised if we grab him too. Last year's draft had some strong indications that Mike Mayock and Josh McDaniels seem to have similar ideas as to what they like in players, and Mayock was on Sirius yesterday saying that the two teams he sees as great fits for Tebow are Minnesota and Denver.

He also said Tebow needed to probably spend two years on the bench being refined and coached up. If he slides within our reach in round 3 I'm betting we jump on him.

If not then I'm almost positive we'll pursue John Skelton out of Furham. He profiles almost exactly like McDaniels previous project QB Kevin O'Connell.I like the idea of grooming a Tebow or Skelton...if there available in the 3rd/4th round. However, the kid I'd like to have is LeFeavor. I think he's going to be the steal of the draft...maybe the best of the bunch in my opinion (that's including Bradford and Clausen).

Dagmar
02-28-2010, 08:23 AM
Dragster doesn't care about actual facts. He prefers "facts" that are more along the lines of "I don't feel like Orton is a legitimate starter, and some people want to ignore that fact."

He doesn't realize that his opinion doesn't equate to fact.

dragster will be in here on his high horse in mere moments.

Play2win
02-28-2010, 08:26 AM
dragster will be in here on his high horse in mere moments.

Casino Royale > Dragster

Hamrob
02-28-2010, 08:29 AM
Exactly.
Orton needs a stellar defense for him to have any kind of success.
You can't count on the guy to rally you from a deficit.
Playing catch up is what really exposes Orton's real flaws and how much he leaves to be desiredBingo. That's why I say...he has to work on his 3rd and long plays. He's the type of guy who takes alot of 3 and outs and likes to turn it over to the Defense. He has to do more on 3rd down and take the pressure off the defense. That's the evelution he needs in his game if he wants a big contract.

strafen
02-28-2010, 08:30 AM
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strafen
02-28-2010, 08:32 AM
Dragster doesn't care about actual facts. He prefers "facts" that are more along the lines of "I don't feel like Orton is a legitimate starter, and some people want to ignore that fact."

He doesn't realize that his opinion doesn't equate to fact.It's not that I don't care about facts.
Tell me what you saw in Orton for you to say, "hell yeah! we found ourselves a QB"
Get real man. All you have to do is watch Orton play to realize we're screwed for as long as the guy is our QB.
That you can take to the bank...

strafen
02-28-2010, 08:34 AM
Bingo. That's why I say...he has to work on his 3rd and long plays. He's the type of guy who takes alot of 3 and outs and likes to turn it over to the Defense. He has to do more on 3rd down and take the pressure off the defense. That's the evelution he needs in his game if he wants a big contract.

I've said last year, if we're on a 3rd and long situation, we might as well punt the ball.

Dedhed
02-28-2010, 08:35 AM
It's not that I don't care about facts.
Tell me what you saw in Orton for you to say, "hell yeah! we found ourselves a QB"
Get real man. All you have to do is watch Orton play to realize we're screwed for as long as the guy is our QB.
That you can take to the bank...

I don't believe that Orton is "our QB", or that he'll be the starter past this season.

I do believe that it's moronic to think there are better options out there for the 2010 season, or to say that Orton isn't a legitimate NFL starter.

strafen
02-28-2010, 09:03 AM
I don't believe that Orton is "our QB", or that he'll be the starter past this season.

I do believe that it's moronic to think there are better options out there for the 2010 season, or to say that Orton isn't a legitimate NFL starter.How much precious time are we right now wasting?
We have a young team on the verge of being special. We can't afford to go another 2 years or more to develop a QB.
I think we need a good prospect to develop, and when you take into account that it normally takes 2 years to develop one, you can see then why my concerns.
Every time you put off developing a QB, you're looking to add 2 more years to the wait.
And that's where we stand. I agree with you there isn't anybody out there to plug and play right now. We need to develop our own guy and soon.

bronco militia
02-28-2010, 09:22 AM
I've said last year, if we're on a 3rd and long situation, we might as well punt the ball.

the brian griese era has returned!

2KBack
02-28-2010, 09:36 AM
Interesting, according to this site, Kyle Ortonwas the 4th best QB in the league on 3rd and long uup through week 10.
http://www.nflstatanalysis.net/2008/11/new-passer-rating-third-down-and-8.html

Beantown Bronco
02-28-2010, 09:50 AM
Exactly.
Orton needs a stellar defense for him to have any kind of success.
You can't count on the guy to rally you from a deficit.
Playing catch up is what really exposes Orton's real flaws and how much he leaves to be desired

Fail. 3 out of the Broncos first 6 wins last year were all come from behind victories.

Hamrob
02-28-2010, 09:52 AM
Interesting, according to this site, Kyle Ortonwas the 4th best QB in the league on 3rd and long uup through week 10.
http://www.nflstatanalysis.net/2008/11/new-passer-rating-third-down-and-8.htmlThat's right...because, up that point our defense was playing well. No defense...Orton sucks!

Hamrob
02-28-2010, 09:54 AM
Fail. 3 out of the Broncos first 6 wins last year were all come from behind victories.Yeah, you're right...it was all Orton against the Bungels. What a throw he made to win that game! Wow...is he good!

Jason in LA
02-28-2010, 10:11 AM
If Orton can become a QB who is a driving force behind wins, then sign him long term. But from what I've seen over his career, including this past year, he doesn't look like he'll ever become anything close to that. He has average written all over him.

I hope the guy can prove me wrong because I want to see the Broncos get back to being contenders. But from what I've seen I don't see why anybody would think that he's the guy.

If McD wants to continue with Orton then he better field a very good defense and a ball control offense (like they did when they were 6-0), because they certainly aren't going to win a lot of games with Orton being the key figure.

Dagmar
02-28-2010, 10:48 AM
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Hilarious!^5:wave::kiss::yayaya::giggle:

(I know he reads my posts)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-28-2010, 10:53 AM
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Yeah, uh... you're paying him attention. Clearly you're not ignoring him too effectively.

strafen
02-28-2010, 11:21 AM
Yeah, uh... you're paying him attention. Clearly you're not ignoring him too effectively.

Jeesus, how dumb and biased people can be?!!!!
Hey, he's on my ignore list. I can't see his post unless somebody quotes him.
Damn!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-28-2010, 11:41 AM
Jeesus, how dumb and biased people can be?!!!!
Hey, he's on my ignore list. I can't see his post unless somebody quotes him.
Damn!

Do you even know the meaning of the word "bias"?

Look, man: you say you're ignoring him, but you have to show everyone that you're ignoring him, which is GIVING HIM A PLATFORM. There's not even a way to BE biased about that.

Good god. Just stop typing.

Dedhed
02-28-2010, 11:46 AM
Yeah, you're right...it was all Orton against the Bungels. What a throw he made to win that game! Wow...is he good!
I notice you didn't address the Dallas and NE games. Convenient.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-28-2010, 11:48 AM
I notice you didn't address the Dallas and NE games. Convenient.

1 out of 3 is a majority. It's the new math.

Dedhed
02-28-2010, 11:52 AM
How much precious time are we right now wasting?
We have a young team on the verge of being special. We can't afford to go another 2 years or more to develop a QB.
I think we need a good prospect to develop, and when you take into account that it normally takes 2 years to develop one, you can see then why my concerns.
Every time you put off developing a QB, you're looking to add 2 more years to the wait.
And that's where we stand. I agree with you there isn't anybody out there to plug and play right now. We need to develop our own guy and soon.

You make zero sense. You agree that there isn't anyone out there right now to plug and play, and that it takes 2 years or more to develop a QB, and then state that we can't afford to go another 2 years.

It sounds to me like your impossible to appease.

BTW, Brandstater is being developed, and I would be shocked if we didn't take another QB in this draft. So again, I don't get what you're whining about.

Dagmar
02-28-2010, 12:05 PM
Yeah, uh... you're paying him attention. Clearly you're not ignoring him too effectively.

Can you quote this for me Moose?


dragster is a high horse hypocrite.


http://i49.tinypic.com/2z6a36a.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/2chb5sw.png

http://i49.tinypic.com/eiqer6.png

Beantown Bronco
02-28-2010, 12:19 PM
That's right...because, up that point our defense was playing well. No defense...Orton sucks!

Please explain to me how you can credit the Broncos defense for how Orton performs on 3rd and long.

DenverBrit
02-28-2010, 12:22 PM
That's right...because, up that point our defense was playing well. No defense...Orton sucks!

Sound like one of the excuses made for Cutler.

DenverBrit
02-28-2010, 12:25 PM
Jeesus, how dumb and biased people can be?!!!!


You're the Gold standard.

DBroncos4life
02-28-2010, 02:02 PM
Orton averaged 10 wins a season while in Chicago and outside of his rookie year when the defense was ranked something like 7th in the league, the rest of his time there, his defenses were ranked in the 20s.

Orton averaged 10 wins a season? He was 10-5 as a starter in 2005, 2-1 in 07 as a starter and 9-6 as a starter in 08. The 2005 season he threw for 1886 yards 9 touchdowns and 13 interceptions. He was completing 51% of his passes that season. The Bears finished 26th in the NFL in points scored and 1st in points allowed in 2005. The Bears finished 29th in yards and 2 in yards allowed.

Lev Vyvanse
02-28-2010, 03:08 PM
Can you quote this for me Moose?


dragster is a high horse hypocrite.


http://i49.tinypic.com/2z6a36a.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/2chb5sw.png

http://i49.tinypic.com/eiqer6.png

That wouldn't be very nice.

Dagmar
02-28-2010, 03:21 PM
That wouldn't be very nice.

Actually he has already out done himself.

So how relevant was that?
What does McDaniels dick taste like?
Are you gay?


http://i45.tinypic.com/21o98qg.png[/QUOTE]

strafen
02-28-2010, 04:12 PM
You make zero sense. You agree that there isn't anyone out there right now to plug and play, and that it takes 2 years or more to develop a QB, and then state that we can't afford to go another 2 years.

It sounds to me like your impossible to appease.

BTW, Brandstater is being developed, and I would be shocked if we didn't take another QB in this draft. So again, I don't get what you're whining about.What I'm trying to say is that as long as we don't start developing a QB is time wasted.
Let's say we get a new QB from the draft this year. How long do you think it will take that guy to be ready to start?
I'd love to see Brandstater get a shot to compete.
I think McDaniels has said he will try to work with him.
The sooner we find out the better. We don't know if he's the guy for us, or if we need to draft a QB.
Either way, it takes time. I think we have guys on our offense at their prime or close to it.

Drek
02-28-2010, 04:48 PM
What I'm trying to say is that as long as we don't start developing a QB is time wasted.
Let's say we get a new QB from the draft this year. How long do you think it will take that guy to be ready to start?
I'd love to see Brandstater get a shot to compete.
I think McDaniels has said he will try to work with him.
The sooner we find out the better. We don't know if he's the guy for us, or if we need to draft a QB.
Either way, it takes time. I think we have guys on our offense at their prime or close to it.

1. Pat Bowlen (the guy who signs the checks) has said we're drafting a QB this year.

2. Josh McDaniels has, at every single stop in his career, been on a team that actually practiced the "best guy gets the job, no one is entitled" line that Shanahan used to always pay lip service to.

Those are both facts. So at this point there are strong indicators that every roster spot not held by a Pro Bowler (i.e. Dawkins, Champ, Doom, and Clady) is up for grabs, and that we'll be adding another QB to the competition in which Brandstater will obviously be given a shot.

Hell, McDaniels even said he'd like to see Brandstater make progression up the depth chart every year, strongly implying that he's hoping to give him Chris Simms job in 2010. The #2 QB on any team has a serious shot to be called on to start at any time.

At the same time though, Brandstater should be watching his back. If we draft a good young QB his job is far from secure as well.

We're going to add another QB, and we're going to start developing him with the intention of having him take Orton's job. Same thing with Brandstater and every other backup on the roster.

strafen
02-28-2010, 04:50 PM
1. Pat Bowlen (the guy who signs the checks) has said we're drafting a QB this year.

2. Josh McDaniels has, at every single stop in his career, been on a team that actually practiced the "best guy gets the job, no one is entitled" line that Shanahan used to always pay lip service to.

Those are both facts. So at this point there are strong indicators that every roster spot not held by a Pro Bowler (i.e. Dawkins, Champ, Doom, and Clady) is up for grabs, and that we'll be adding another QB to the competition in which Brandstater will obviously be given a shot.

Hell, McDaniels even said he'd like to see Brandstater make progression up the depth chart every year, strongly implying that he's hoping to give him Chris Simms job in 2010. The #2 QB on any team has a serious shot to be called on to start at any time.

At the same time though, Brandstater should be watching his back. If we draft a good young QB his job is far from secure as well.

We're going to add another QB, and we're going to start developing him with the intention of having him take Orton's job. Same thing with Brandstater and every other backup on the roster.I've got nothing to disagree there.
I hope we address the QB position this year for once and for all. Long time due...

Hamrob
02-28-2010, 08:29 PM
I notice you didn't address the Dallas and NE games. Convenient.Let's see...the Dallas game? Hmm...I seem to recall a guy by the name of Brandon Marshall taking over that game and winning it at the end. Yeah...Orton threw the 10yd pass. Wow!

Why don't you speak to the great ability Orton shows and how he lead us to victory. I'd love to hear that...einstein!

Broncos4tw
02-28-2010, 09:22 PM
Stats, schamts. The proof is in the pudding, and that's how he plays, not how his stats make him look. What would I like to see? Some fire in the face of adversity, for one. He plays too safe. If someone is in his face, make a play, don't collapse like gravity just increased by 300% just around his body. Look past the first receiver. Better pocket presence.

It's like this. Some QBs are not great scramblers (Manning), but don't need to be, because they can make plays. Some are not as good at making plays, but they are good at extending the play to get someone open or scramble for yards. Orton is neither. I'd like him to be one of those.

Like you saw in the SB: Two great QBs, one made a single mistake, and it cost him the SB. Orton is currently quite a ways off from being in their league. I don't want him to be a Manning or a Brees, I just want him to make some plays when he can. It's frustrating as hell to see a wide open running lane on third down, and we end up kicking it away because he lacks the quick decision making to make something happen.

strafen
02-28-2010, 09:28 PM
Stats, schamts. The proof is in the pudding, and that's how he plays, not how his stats make him look. What would I like to see? Some fire in the face of adversity, for one. He plays too safe. If someone is in his face, make a play, don't collapse like gravity just increased by 300% just around his body. Look past the first receiver. Better pocket presence.

It's like this. Some QBs are not great scramblers (Manning), but don't need to be, because they can make plays. Some are not as good at making plays, but they are good at extending the play to get someone open or scramble for yards. Orton is neither. I'd like him to be one of those.

Like you saw in the SB: Two great QBs, one made a single mistake, and it cost him the SB. Orton is currently quite a ways off from being in their league. I don't want him to be a Manning or a Brees, I just want him to make some plays when he can. It's frustrating as hell to see a wide open running lane on third down, and we end up kicking it away because he lacks the quick decision making to make something happen.Well said. The guy is just a sloth...

Dagmar
02-28-2010, 09:52 PM
Well said. The guy is just a sloth...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/fletchismint/10cq4v6.gif

2KBack
02-28-2010, 10:04 PM
Stats, schamts. The proof is in the pudding, and that's how he plays, not how his stats make him look. What would I like to see? Some fire in the face of adversity, for one. He plays too safe. If someone is in his face, make a play, don't collapse like gravity just increased by 300% just around his body. Look past the first receiver. Better pocket presence.

It's like this. Some QBs are not great scramblers (Manning), but don't need to be, because they can make plays. Some are not as good at making plays, but they are good at extending the play to get someone open or scramble for yards. Orton is neither. I'd like him to be one of those.

Like you saw in the SB: Two great QBs, one made a single mistake, and it cost him the SB. Orton is currently quite a ways off from being in their league. I don't want him to be a Manning or a Brees, I just want him to make some plays when he can. It's frustrating as hell to see a wide open running lane on third down, and we end up kicking it away because he lacks the quick decision making to make something happen.

Stats are objective measurements that remove the lenses of bias that people observe players through. The fact that many people here are dead set on complaining about perceived faults of Orton's, that are in fact often debunked by the statistics, speaks far more about those passing judgment than Orton himself.

BroncoMan4ever
03-01-2010, 01:48 AM
Interesting, according to this site, Kyle Ortonwas the 4th best QB in the league on 3rd and long uup through week 10.
http://www.nflstatanalysis.net/2008/11/new-passer-rating-third-down-and-8.html

That's right...because, up that point our defense was playing well. No defense...Orton sucks!

Hamrob, just curious, since you supplied so much to your argument about 2KBacks rather intriguing statistical find about Orton.

in what way does the defense being good up til week 10, have to do with Orton being the 4th best QB in the league on 3rd and long situations?

Beantown Bronco
03-01-2010, 03:39 AM
Let's see...the Dallas game? Hmm...I seem to recall a guy by the name of Brandon Marshall taking over that game and winning it at the end. Yeah...Orton threw the 10yd pass. Wow!


So that last drive was a one play drive? So, one catch is now "taking over a game"? Nice. Not even close. Orton drove them into game-winning field goal position before Marshall got a single yard after the catch on that last pass.

fontaine
03-01-2010, 03:58 AM
I'm excited about seeing what Orton can do in '10. He's had a full year in the system and has had time to learn the offense as well as gel with the players around him.

He's the best option we have going into the season and he's essentially playing for his future knowing that if he doesn't elevate his game then Denver will look elsewhere rather than investing a big money deal on him long term.

He absolutely can improve and will but the biggest improvement needs to come from the red zone passing and our piss poor running game that's looked a shadow of itself.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-01-2010, 05:27 AM
Stats, schamts. The proof is in the pudding, and that's how he plays, not how his stats make him look. What would I like to see? Some fire in the face of adversity, for one. He plays too safe. If someone is in his face, make a play, don't collapse like gravity just increased by 300% just around his body. Look past the first receiver. Better pocket presence.

It's like this. Some QBs are not great scramblers (Manning), but don't need to be, because they can make plays. Some are not as good at making plays, but they are good at extending the play to get someone open or scramble for yards. Orton is neither. I'd like him to be one of those.

Like you saw in the SB: Two great QBs, one made a single mistake, and it cost him the SB. Orton is currently quite a ways off from being in their league. I don't want him to be a Manning or a Brees, I just want him to make some plays when he can. It's frustrating as hell to see a wide open running lane on third down, and we end up kicking it away because he lacks the quick decision making to make something happen.

Manning's a pretty ****ty comparison given a couple factors, like his all-world offensive line. The guy never gets touched. Ever.

And guess what? When a play isn't there, and the rush comes in, know what he does? He hits the deck.

baja
03-01-2010, 05:57 AM
Stats, schamts. The proof is in the pudding, and that's how he plays, not how his stats make him look. What would I like to see? Some fire in the face of adversity, for one. ,b> He plays too safe.</b> If someone is in his face, make a play, don't collapse like gravity just increased by 300% just around his body. Look past the first receiver. Better pocket presence.

It's like this. Some QBs are not great scramblers (Manning), but don't need to be, because they can make plays. Some are not as good at making plays, but they are good at extending the play to get someone open or scramble for yards. Orton is neither. I'd like him to be one of those.

Like you saw in the SB: Two great QBs, one made a single mistake, and it cost him the SB. Orton is currently quite a ways off from being in their league. I don't want him to be a Manning or a Brees, I just want him to make some plays when he can. It's frustrating as hell to see a wide open running lane on third down, and we end up kicking it away because he lacks the quick decision making to make something happen.

This post makes good points.


I agree Orton plays frustratingly safe but I chalk this up to his learning the system so therefore I'm giving him another season before I make the call on his future in Denver. My feeling is he will make a huge leap in his second season under Josh's tutelage. Orton is going to surprise a lot of his detractors in 2010.

jhns
03-01-2010, 06:14 AM
What does he need to do for a long term contract? Easy, gene modification surgery. Maybe learn how to work a pocket and throw more accurate beyond 10 yards. He needs to play a lot better on third down and in the red zone. We were horrible in these areas.

Dedhed
03-01-2010, 06:31 AM
Let's see...the Dallas game? Hmm...I seem to recall a guy by the name of Brandon Marshall taking over that game and winning it at the end. Yeah...Orton threw the 10yd pass. Wow!

Why don't you speak to the great ability Orton shows and how he lead us to victory. I'd love to hear that...einstein!And Marshall threw the ball to himself, right?

And NE?

oubronco
03-01-2010, 06:32 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/fletchismint/10cq4v6.gif

thats creepy as hell

Dedhed
03-01-2010, 06:34 AM
What I'm trying to say is that as long as we don't start developing a QB is time wasted.
Let's say we get a new QB from the draft this year. How long do you think it will take that guy to be ready to start?
I'd love to see Brandstater get a shot to compete.
I think McDaniels has said he will try to work with him.
The sooner we find out the better. We don't know if he's the guy for us, or if we need to draft a QB.
Either way, it takes time. I think we have guys on our offense at their prime or close to it.

We ARE developing a QB. And I'm sure we'll be developing another one come training camp. I still don't understand what you're getting at.

We're doing all the things that you're talking about. It sounds to me like you're down on McDaniels for not starting to develop a QB a couple of years before he got here.

Cito Pelon
03-01-2010, 06:45 AM
I don't think another year in the system will make a huge difference.
He may get better in his decision making abilities to release the ball with more authority where it needs to be, but the system will not transform Orton into something he's really not, or never been. That's my point.

That's actually pretty important. If he manages to do that he'll go from an avg. NFL starter to above-avg.

You're what the OP was talking about - people that will never forgive a QB for not being Elway.

strafen
03-01-2010, 07:43 AM
We ARE developing a QB. And I'm sure we'll be developing another one come training camp. I still don't understand what you're getting at.

We're doing all the things that you're talking about. It sounds to me like you're down on McDaniels for not starting to develop a QB a couple of years before he got here.

What I'm trying to get at is that we're still without a QBOTF.
You need one. There are not many Drew Brees-Kurt Warner type QB's out there you can sign and solidify the QB position

Yes, we drafted Brandstater, but despite me liking him, I don't see him as the future. Hope to be wrong, though I love for him to get a chance to compete.
Not sure if he's the one you're talking about being currently developed?
I

BroncoMan4ever
03-01-2010, 02:56 PM
What I'm trying to get at is that we're still without a QBOTF.
You need one. There are not many Drew Brees-Kurt Warner type QB's out there you can sign and solidify the QB position

Yes, we drafted Brandstater, but despite me liking him, I don't see him as the future. Hope to be wrong, though I love for him to get a chance to compete.
Not sure if he's the one you're talking about being currently developed?
I

no doubt even if it becomes for nothing and we end up in a McNabb and Kolb situation with Orton and a new guy being brought in to compete. with Orton being the older veteran that just will not relinquish his job to the rookie that was brought in to take his job, we need to bring in someone else to groom and potentially compete to take over as our starting QB. but with that in mind, i don't think we should just take any guy because we need someone being groomed. i mean even with Brandstater, i felt that was a wasted pick because at best the guy is going to be a career backup or journeyman, we need someone who has a legit shot at becoming a viable option as our QBOTF, and not just some random QB because he fits the prototype for McDaniels offense

colonelbeef
03-01-2010, 03:20 PM
He needs to work on hitting his receivers in stride past 10 yds

bingo

strafen
03-01-2010, 03:57 PM
no doubt even if it becomes for nothing and we end up in a McNabb and Kolb situation with Orton and a new guy being brought in to compete. with Orton being the older veteran that just will not relinquish his job to the rookie that was brought in to take his job, we need to bring in someone else to groom and potentially compete to take over as our starting QB. but with that in mind, i don't think we should just take any guy because we need someone being groomed. i mean even with Brandstater, i felt that was a wasted pick because at best the guy is going to be a career backup or journeyman, we need someone who has a legit shot at becoming a viable option as our QBOTF, and not just some random QB because he fits the prototype for McDaniels offenseGood point.
I also see the Brandstater pick as one they were going to make (draft a QB) just to draft one, and not necessarily as one projected to be the QB of the franchise.

Still, before I can make any further comments or pass judgments on Brandstater, I'd like to see him compete.
I saw a little bit of him that showed he could possibly be a decent QB.

Drek
03-01-2010, 04:28 PM
no doubt even if it becomes for nothing and we end up in a McNabb and Kolb situation with Orton and a new guy being brought in to compete. with Orton being the older veteran that just will not relinquish his job to the rookie that was brought in to take his job, we need to bring in someone else to groom and potentially compete to take over as our starting QB. but with that in mind, i don't think we should just take any guy because we need someone being groomed. i mean even with Brandstater, i felt that was a wasted pick because at best the guy is going to be a career backup or journeyman, we need someone who has a legit shot at becoming a viable option as our QBOTF, and not just some random QB because he fits the prototype for McDaniels offense

Brandstater was drafted because he's a mature QB with the necessary physical skills available late in the draft. He isn't meant to be a QBOTF, he's meant to be Orton's and the QBOTF's backup.

Basically, he's Matt Cassel. A low cost draftee who should pan out to at least a solid depth guy. That is important because McDaniels and Bowlen have made it clear they're still looking for a potential QBOTF, so unless we're going to carry 4 QBs all season we need someone who can replace Simms.

McDaniels went into 2009 with Orton and Simms as his 1A and 1B QBs, Simms is clearly not up to the task of starting in the NFL, for whatever reason. Orton is. So from those two we found our QB for the moment. Now that we have that settled and have someone we can actually win football games with behind center we can begin looking for our elite QBOTF prospect. But at the same time we don't want to risk that QBOTF's development by having to throw him to the wolves too quickly shoudl the QB of the moment get hurt.

Here's a hypothetical. Lets say we draft Tim Tebow in round two of this year's draft and McDaniels (a noted QB guru) thinks he needs to effectively red shirt two seasons before being an elite talent. Is that the kind of situation where you want an Orton injury to expose you to starting him in year one, as a completely raw and undeveloped rookie? No. You need a stop gap. That is where Brandstater comes in. He's the shield for our next QBOTF to have time to learn his job.

Its a big reason (that and Mayock thinking he's a good fit here) why I wouldn't be surprised if we're the team to jump on Tebow in round 2.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-01-2010, 04:37 PM
Brandstater was drafted because he's a mature QB with the necessary physical skills available late in the draft. He isn't meant to be a QBOTF, he's meant to be Orton's and the QBOTF's backup.

Basically, he's Matt Cassel. A low cost draftee who should pan out to at least a solid depth guy. That is important because McDaniels and Bowlen have made it clear they're still looking for a potential QBOTF, so unless we're going to carry 4 QBs all season we need someone who can replace Simms.

McDaniels went into 2009 with Orton and Simms as his 1A and 1B QBs, Simms is clearly not up to the task of starting in the NFL, for whatever reason. Orton is. So from those two we found our QB for the moment. Now that we have that settled and have someone we can actually win football games with behind center we can begin looking for our elite QBOTF prospect. But at the same time we don't want to risk that QBOTF's development by having to throw him to the wolves too quickly shoudl the QB of the moment get hurt.

Here's a hypothetical. Lets say we draft Tim Tebow in round two of this year's draft and McDaniels (a noted QB guru) thinks he needs to effectively red shirt two seasons before being an elite talent. Is that the kind of situation where you want an Orton injury to expose you to starting him in year one, as a completely raw and undeveloped rookie? No. You need a stop gap. That is where Brandstater comes in. He's the shield for our next QBOTF to have time to learn his job.

Its a big reason (that and Mayock thinking he's a good fit here) why I wouldn't be surprised if we're the team to jump on Tebow in round 2.

Just absolutely spot-on, Drek.

See, dragster, when you actually evaluate how the game and systems work, you find what's actually going on. It requires you to have an open mind and look at several possibilities, most of which go beyond "MCD HATES ALL SHANAHAN PLAYERS!"

HAT
03-01-2010, 06:08 PM
Here's a hypothetical. Lets say we draft Tim Tebow in round two of this year's draft and McDaniels (a noted QB guru) thinks he needs to effectively red shirt two seasons before being an elite talent. Is that the kind of situation where you want an Orton injury to expose you to starting him in year one, as a completely raw and undeveloped rookie? No. You need a stop gap. That is where Brandstater comes in. He's the shield for our next QBOTF to have time to learn his job.


Spot on. I would also add that the Orton/Brandstater stop gap allows them to pass on a high round QB altogether. I'm cool if they want to take a shot at Skelton or Canfield in the later rounds. But it would be a mistake to invest an early round pick in a sub-par QB class.

There are better prospects coming in '11 & '12.

2010
Orton/'Stater/Project (Skelton for example)

Reassess next summer. If Orton didn't improve on 2009 and Brandstater/Skelton don't look like starters, you have the flexibility to position for a 1st rounder like Locker if need be. If Orton takes another step forward and the back ups look like at least solid #2's....Pass again in 2011 and shoot for a Luck, Barkley, Mallett, etc. in 2012.

The only thing worse than not having a QBOTF is having the wrong one and not seeing it as a position of need when the real studs start coming out.

watermock
03-01-2010, 06:33 PM
We still have Gaffney,c'mon guys!

Lolad
03-01-2010, 06:35 PM
Hamrob, just curious, since you supplied so much to your argument about 2KBacks rather intriguing statistical find about Orton.

in what way does the defense being good up til week 10, have to do with Orton being the 4th best QB in the league on 3rd and long situations?

I would love to know what you think attributed to his play the 1st half of the season and the decline the 2nd half.

3rd and long means there was no threat from us running the ball so even though we sucked we still couldn't scare anybody into thinking we were running. I think he got too safe throwing to Marshall, and not spreading the ball around.

The reason he was using Marshall wasn't because he was open either, but because he thought it was the safest throw to make since he likes to wear kid gloves. Orton needs to grow a pair

watermock
03-01-2010, 06:43 PM
Spot on. I would also add that the Orton/Brandstater stop gap allows them to pass on a high round QB altogether. I'm cool if they want to take a shot at Skelton or Canfield in the later rounds. But it would be a mistake to invest an early round pick in a sub-par QB class.

There are better prospects coming in '11 & '12.

2010
Orton/'Stater/Project (Skelton for example)

Reassess next summer. If Orton didn't improve on 2009 and Brandstater/Skelton don't look like starters, you have the flexibility to position for a 1st rounder like Locker if need be. If Orton takes another step forward and the back ups look like at least solid #2's....Pass again in 2011 and shoot for a Luck, Barkley, Mallett, etc. in 2012.

The only thing worse than not having a QBOTF is having the wrong one and not seeing it as a position of need when the real studs start coming out.

Perfect postion for a run in 2015.

watermock
03-01-2010, 06:47 PM
Don't worry, we have Joe Ellis whitlling down the index card for Beavis to understand it.

watermock
03-01-2010, 06:52 PM
Perfect postion for a run in 2015.


We can only hope Bradford lasts and McCoy is there.

Mcdummy ****ed us.

watermock
03-01-2010, 06:53 PM
Best thing we can do is take a no lose LB.

Br0nc0Buster
03-01-2010, 06:55 PM
Why are you talking to yourself?
No one else wants to talk to you?

BroncoMan4ever
03-01-2010, 07:00 PM
I would love to know what you think attributed to his play the 1st half of the season and the decline the 2nd half.

3rd and long means there was no threat from us running the ball so even though we sucked we still couldn't scare anybody into thinking we were running. I think he got too safe throwing to Marshall, and not spreading the ball around.

The reason he was using Marshall wasn't because he was open either, but because he thought it was the safest throw to make since he likes to wear kid gloves. Orton needs to grow a pair

the fact that we couldn't run the ****ing ball only re-enforces and adds credence to the fact that Orton was damn good in 3rd and long situations. defenses knew in those situations we were going to throw the ball, and Orton was still getting it done, and was the 4th best in the league at it. i don't give a **** who he was throwing to. he was the 4th best in the league, if that meant target Marshall, hit Royal, find Graham, Stokley, Scheff or Moreno out of the backfield or anyone else on the team, he was still good on 3rd and long and keeping drives alive.


and the 1st half of the season Orton was relatively healthy. Sure the finger was messed up but he still could plant and step into throws and make good throws. The line still had Harris who was a major key in our eventual collapse, and the scheme McDaniels was putting in place was hiding the weaknesses of the team. It wasn't until injuries hit and the lack of talent was exposed that the team collapsed.

2nd half of the season, Hamilton and Weigman turned into revolving doors, Harris was gone, and Orton was playing on a bad ankle, also, the defense that was playing at an elite level the 1st half of the season dropped in their play.

BroncoMan4ever
03-01-2010, 07:03 PM
We can only hope Bradford lasts and McCoy is there.

Mcdummy ****ed us.

did you literally quote yourself and then complain about your quote?

dude you might be losing it. might be a good time to take a break from the internet for a few days. get your mind right

Dagmar
03-01-2010, 07:16 PM
We can only hope Bradford lasts and McCoy is there.

Mcdummy ****ed us.

:spit:

This is amazing, please keep going.

None as classic as your post in the NBA thread though.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-01-2010, 07:38 PM
did you literally quote yourself and then complain about your quote?

dude you might be losing it. might be a good time to take a break from the internet for a few days. get your mind right

It's a bit late for that, I think.