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View Full Version : Broncos to alter offseason conditioning program in hopes of halting late-season fades


montrose
02-26-2010, 11:19 AM
"We're going to work hard on power and those type of lifts," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said Thursday. "Power and strength. The power aspect of it, we're going to work mass with some of our bigger guys. The first six games of the season, we ran the ball and stopped the run."

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14473865

BlaK-Argentina
02-26-2010, 11:26 AM
Good. Though I'd like to see what Mediator thinks. I don't think our late season fade was due only to conditioning but stale and predictable play-calling and bad gameplanning were a factor too. (and I'm a McD supporter)

BlaK-Argentina
02-26-2010, 11:28 AM
I'd like to hear Med's opinion because it seemed that teams figured out McD in the second half of the season and the Broncos being "smaller" made it even worse.

strafen
02-26-2010, 11:32 AM
Is Tuten still our conditioning and strength coach?

Br0nc0Buster
02-26-2010, 11:41 AM
I think the primary reason we collapse is our lack of talent
By the second half of the season teams know what we are doing

It is harder to outscheme teams when they have several games worth of film to break down your tendencies
I think adding more talent on the lines will go a long way in preventing us from getting gashed on defense at the end of the year like we have become accustomed to

Blueflame
02-26-2010, 11:42 AM
Good. Though I'd like to see what Mediator thinks. I don't think our late season fade was due only to conditioning but stale and predictable play-calling and bad gameplanning were a factor too. (and I'm a McD supporter)

In past seasons, one could point to key injuries as one of the factors in a late-season swoon. Last year the team was relatively healthy...

Popps
02-26-2010, 12:09 PM
Talent.


We need better players.

We played over our heads the first half, and ran into some injuries and bad luck in the second half.

I'm glad we're working on conditioning... but we need better football players at several key positions. It's very simple.

But, it's early in the cycle of a rebuild, so we'll see what happens.

yerner
02-26-2010, 12:41 PM
Seriously. That is some bs. By the time most football players get to the pro's they have certainly done all the different types of lifting possible. Get better football players.

strafen
02-26-2010, 12:49 PM
Hopefully McDaniels wants to build a strong physical team, more than he's doing it because of our mid-season collapse. Lifting weights don't give you more stamina and the endurance you need like cardio and running type workouts would.

We've had plenty players on the roster capable of going in and out to relieve other players. I don't remember seeing any kind of rotation to keep guys fresh other than the normal downs substitutions.

~Crash~
02-26-2010, 12:49 PM
Talent.


We need better players.

We played over our heads the first half, and ran into some injuries and bad luck in the second half.

I'm glad we're working on conditioning... but we need better football players at several key positions. It's very simple.

But, it's early in the cycle of a rebuild, so we'll see what happens.

there you go that makes all the BS simple . Good for you . It is so close to a total rebuild at this point and fans need to get real. I did not want a total rebuild but now I will be damn happy 2 years from now ....but IMO we will not win a game next year but I am really not mad if we are building a big strong team that will not be pushed around by anyone . We should of done this after Al wilson got hurt .I even started a thread back then that we should do what we are doing now.

gtown
02-26-2010, 12:50 PM
We got friggin owned the second half at the POA. Once opposing teams figured out that they could run on our nickel package, it was over. The Oline had injuries and sucked up the middle.

We need talent more than conditioning, but I will settle for a team that at least trains hard.

Broncomutt
02-26-2010, 12:52 PM
I don't know. Teams don't have Players Only meetings to say "Man, why didn't we work out harder in the off-season? Let's all do sit-ups for the next hour!"

He blames conditioning and toughness, then fields players like Ankle Tattoo, or McKinnley who gets the ball then goes into the fetal position.

Having said that, if McDaniels wants to condition them harder, I think that's a great idea. I applaud him. :strong::strong::strong:

But please get the pussies off the roster first.

~Crash~
02-26-2010, 12:56 PM
I don't know. Teams don't have Players Only meetings to say "Man, why didn't we work out harder in the off-season? Let's all do sit-ups for the next hour!"

He blames conditioning and toughness, then fields players like Ankle Tattoo, or McKinnley who gets the ball then goes into the fetal position.

Having said that, if McDaniels wants to condition them harder, I think that's a great idea. I applaud him. :strong::strong::strong:

But please get the pussies off the roster first.

McD got a roster full of crap on the D side of the football . so..........

The GM Side McD has been money ! I will give him full credit !

Drek
02-26-2010, 02:03 PM
I'd like to hear Med's opinion because it seemed that teams figured out McD in the second half of the season and the Broncos being "smaller" made it even worse.

Everyone has everyone else figured out by the second half, and when that time came our lines just couldn't hold up.

Hopefully McDaniels wants to build a strong physical team, more than he's doing it because of our mid-season collapse. Lifting weights don't give you more stamina and the endurance you need like cardio and running type workouts would.

We've had plenty players on the roster capable of going in and out to relieve other players. I don't remember seeing any kind of rotation to keep guys fresh other than the normal downs substitutions.

I think his point is that strong, powerful teams don't wear down like smaller finesse teams do, hence the goal to make the team bigger and stronger.

Its all a moot point if we don't find a legit difference maker on the DL and a couple good OL upgrades over Hamilton and Weigmann though. Massive weak spots from last season right there that have to be fixed.

DBroncos4life
02-26-2010, 02:07 PM
Come on McD it's nothing that doubling the amount of pads we wear in practice won't take care of.

Irish Stout
02-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Put em all on the juice!

BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 04:54 PM
Good. Though I'd like to see what Mediator thinks. I don't think our late season fade was due only to conditioning but stale and predictable play-calling and bad gameplanning were a factor too. (and I'm a McD supporter)

i don't know, i mean look at Pittsburgh the 1st season Tomlin took over. by the end of the season both Rothlesberger and Paulumaulu were on record as saying they were exhauseted, just like the rest of the team. they went through rigorous practices in mini camps and Tranining camp and by the end of the season were burnt out.

we all know McDaniels ran a much harder camp than Mike ever did, and while i don't think it is the only reason in the collapse, it probably is at least a little responsible.

BlaK-Argentina
02-26-2010, 04:55 PM
Everyone has everyone else figured out by the second half, and when that time came our lines just couldn't hold up.



I think his point is that strong, powerful teams don't wear down like smaller finesse teams do, hence the goal to make the team bigger and stronger.

Its all a moot point if we don't find a legit difference maker on the DL and a couple good OL upgrades over Hamilton and Weigmann though. Massive weak spots from last season right there that have to be fixed.

That's where I was going. I think they DID wear down because we were obviously more succesful at running the ball and defending it in the first half of the season and we had pretty much the same players in there. Of course we need to get better players, but why did these guys struggle so much with something they had been doing relatively well just a month before? Conditioning had to be a factor. Obviously McD thinks so too.

listopencil
02-26-2010, 05:20 PM
That's where I was going. I think they DID wear down because we were obviously more succesful at running the ball and defending it in the first half of the season and we had pretty much the same players in there. Of course we need to get better players, but why did these guys struggle so much with something they had been doing relatively well just a month before? Conditioning had to be a factor. Obviously McD thinks so too.

I thought we stopped being able to run the ball when Harris went down. I don't know, maybe I'm not remembering correctly but didn't the O-Line suck ass at run blocking after that? From what I saw it was the Offense's inability to move the ball that cost us many of those games. Couldn't pick up a yard when we needed two, couldn't even sustain a drive when the D did get stops or turnovers.

The MVPlaya
02-26-2010, 05:29 PM
lol some of you idiots keep on hating - EVERY team goes through the same process of making changes just like these.

By what some of you are saying - since they're pro's and everything - we should just not worry about that aspect of football and just worry about getting better players. I think what some of you guys don't realize is something called DETAIL.

No one is saying this is going to change everything - it's just one of the DETAILS/aspects that will contribute to it.

The level of stupidity going on here is second to none.

HAT
02-26-2010, 05:43 PM
In past seasons, one could point to key injuries as one of the factors in a late-season swoon. Last year the team was relatively healthy...

Where in the 5 posts above yours did anyone mention injuries? (Including the quoted article & McD blurb)

KipCorrington25
02-26-2010, 07:12 PM
This is hilarious because they run this exact same article every off season about how Tuten has some great new work out program so they won't fade and low and behold they always do so it's either Tuten or?????

Pick Six
02-26-2010, 07:16 PM
Ryan Harris was a key injury. We don't have to have a lot of injuries to upset chemistry. A key loss on the offensive line was enough to start upsetting the apple cart...

oubronco
02-26-2010, 07:19 PM
Everyone has everyone else figured out by the second half, and when that time came our lines just couldn't hold up.



I think his point is that strong, powerful teams don't wear down like smaller finesse teams do, hence the goal to make the team bigger and stronger.

Its all a moot point if we don't find a legit difference maker on the DL and a couple good OL upgrades over Hamilton and Weigmann though. Massive weak spots from last season right there that have to be fixed.

It has been this way for far too long

BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 08:02 PM
This is hilarious because they run this exact same article every off season about how Tuten has some great new work out program so they won't fade and low and behold they always do so it's either Tuten or?????

i truthfully think the entire strength and conditioning staff needs to be replaced.

lostknight
02-26-2010, 10:50 PM
Thank Goodness. But Tuten needs to be out of there.

strafen
02-26-2010, 10:54 PM
Thank Goodness. But Tuten needs to be out of there.

I'm surprised he's still with the team...
There might be a different schedule and way of doing conditioning and strengthening this year. A new program if you will...

montrose
02-26-2010, 10:55 PM
Ryan Harris was a key injury.

Most underrated factor in this season's slide. Prior to the season I remember thinking (and posting I believe) that an injury to Clady or Harris would be my biggest fear - and of course it happened. When we lost Harris, the OL went from average to suck very quickly.

Florida_Bronco
02-26-2010, 11:05 PM
Thank Goodness. But Tuten needs to be out of there.

Why?

strafen
02-26-2010, 11:09 PM
Why?

I think he's got a lot of the blame for the debacle in 2008 when all of our running backs went down with injuries.
There was a lot of speculation his condtioning program was not yielding the expected results. A better conditioned athlete is less proned to injuries...

Florida_Bronco
02-26-2010, 11:13 PM
I think he's got a lot of the blame for the debacle in 2008 when all of our running backs went down with injuries.
There was a lot of speculation his condtioning program was not yielding the expected results. A better conditioned athlete is less proned to injuries...

I would agree with this, but I think the blame could more likely be placed on the country club atmosphere of training camps and practices that he was famous for running.

Tuten is/was pretty well respected in league circles. I'd like to see him get a couple years here with the new regime so we can see whether he was really the problem or not.

strafen
02-26-2010, 11:18 PM
I would agree with this, but I think the blame could more likely be placed on the country club atmosphere of training camps and practices that he was famous for running.

Tuten is/was pretty well respected in league circles. I'd like to see him get a couple years here with the new regime so we can see whether he was really the problem or not.That's the stigma he's got.
I don't think it was the conditioning program itself, I just think the players themselves failed to properly do pre-game warm-ups...

Drek
02-27-2010, 01:32 AM
That's the stigma he's got.
I don't think it was the conditioning program itself, I just think the players themselves failed to properly do pre-game warm-ups...

Hell, I'd take it beyond pre-game warm-ups and say that the players for the previous regime just flat out didn't put the work in during the off-season, OTAs, camp, and pre-season to make it through a whole year of the NFL meat grinder.

Shanahan liked to go light because he didn't want to beat his guys up before the season. That has a lot of merit to it when you've got John Elway, Steve Atwater, Al Wilson, Terrell Davis, Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, etc. leading the team. They take care of themselves and impress on their teammates how important it is to show up in shape and ready to play. Its a peer enforced level of accountability.

But when those guys are gone someone needs to step into that leadership role, and we haven't had that here. As a result the team got soft under Shanahan's last few years.

It has been this way for far too long

Yep.

It underscores both how good McDaniels and Shanahan are as X's and O's coaches. When scheme matters they both can beat any team in the league. But once the book on everyone is out they both had the same issue. Not enough power and production coming out of the lines and too many parts of the team wearing down.

This was only McDaniels first year and he's preaching the right sermon about fixing it, but he's got to go out and do it. Shanahan preached it before too and then he'd go out and draft another corner or WR. McDaniels needs to go get us the elite line talents he says we need, not roll the dice on more UDFAs and FA rehab projects, no matter how promising. We have enough roll players, we need starters and difference makers.

Thats why I'm hoping pick #11 is used on Dan Williams or Mike Iupati. I don't even care if its an overpick. Trade down if we can, but we need one of those two interior beasts (or someone very similar) coming back to Denver after the draft or we're just going to see a repeat of 2009, which was a repeat of 2008, itself a repeat of 2007, etc..

BroncoMan4ever
02-27-2010, 03:38 AM
Thats why I'm hoping pick #11 is used on Dan Williams or Mike Iupati. I don't even care if its an overpick. Trade down if we can, but we need one of those two interior beasts (or someone very similar) coming back to Denver after the draft or we're just going to see a repeat of 2009, which was a repeat of 2008, itself a repeat of 2007, etc..

i agree with that completely. i don't give a **** that Iupati is a guard and guards typically aren't picked that high in the draft. he is a guy who can come in from day 1 and instantly make the offense better, and by making the running game better help the defense by keeping them off the field and rested.

same with Williams, he would be an immediate upgrade to the front 7, because he is a dude that will require double teams constantly and free up our LBs to just make plays.

i don't care if both have grades as guys who should be drafted in the 20's if we get either even if we got them earlier than we should have, i will be ecstatic.

if McDaniels is serious about getting better on the lines, he should know he needs to bring in the best available options.

baja
02-27-2010, 06:38 AM
Hopefully McDaniels wants to build a strong physical team, more than he's doing it because of our mid-season collapse. Lifting weights don't give you more stamina and the endurance you need like cardio and running type workouts would.

We've had plenty players on the roster capable of going in and out to relieve other players.<B> I don't remember seeing any kind of rotation to keep guys fresh other than the normal downs substitutions.

Really?

baja
02-27-2010, 06:45 AM
You want stamina drink Noni juice do yoga and Tai Chi and don't eat garbage.

Punisher
02-27-2010, 06:46 AM
I don't care what kind of "Conditioning Program" he's running if this team doesn't have Brandon Marshall we don't win anything and that's that

elsid13
02-27-2010, 07:02 AM
I would agree with this, but I think the blame could more likely be placed on the country club atmosphere of training camps and practices that he was famous for running.

Tuten is/was pretty well respected in league circles. I'd like to see him get a couple years here with the new regime so we can see whether he was really the problem or not.

The whole country club atmosphere is one of the biggest crock of **** myth going on the Mane. All the guys train year round and are in excellent shape. This isn't the 60s'/70s or early 80s when player need training camp to get back into football shape. Injuries happen not because a player didn't spend an extra 15 minute pounding out a extra of set of squats, but because because very big men running at very fast speed are running into each. At the NFL is not about physical talent it about using the correct techinque at the right time.

Drek
02-27-2010, 07:07 AM
I don't care what kind of "Conditioning Program" he's running if this team doesn't have Brandon Marshall we don't win anything and that's that

Really?

I love how people try and attach our success/failure to the fate of a single player. You sound like the ass clowns around here last off-season predicting 4-12 or worse seasons when Cutler was traded.

Brandon Marshall is a really talented WR who at times makes huge game winning plays but also lacks game to game consistency. He's had multiple off-field issues as well. I'm pretty sure this team will do just fine without him if he finds someone willing to give us 1st and 3rd round picks for him.

Drek
02-27-2010, 07:23 AM
The whole country club atmosphere is one of the biggest crock of **** myth going on the Mane. All the guys train year round and are in excellent shape. This isn't the 60s'/70s or early 80s when player need training camp to get back into football shape. Injuries happen not because a player didn't spend an extra 15 minute pounding out a extra of set of squats, but because because very big men running at very fast speed are running into each. At the NFL is not about physical talent it about using the correct techinque at the right time.

If this was truly the case then why do so many player contracts still have max and min weight conditions to be met on the first day of OTAs and why do so many players continually show up above/below their acceptable levels?

Montrae Holland and Andre Smith are both in peak conditioning at all times though, I'm sure.

elsid13
02-27-2010, 07:35 AM
If this was truly the case then why do so many player contracts still have max and min weight conditions to be met on the first day of OTAs and why do so many players continually show up above/below their acceptable levels?

Montrae Holland and Andre Smith are both in peak conditioning at all times though, I'm sure.


You proving the point. Those contract clauses are another pressure point to that turn this profession into year round job and keeps players in shape. Yes there are lazy players in league, and we hear about them because they are not the norm. Last season we had three players that didn't pass McDaniels fitness test out of 85 camp invitees. All three were cleared to play within two days.

Cito Pelon
02-27-2010, 07:54 AM
It's just part of the equation.

Florida_Bronco
02-27-2010, 10:47 AM
The whole country club atmosphere is one of the biggest crock of **** myth going on the Mane. Really? I read an interview that Shannon Sharpe did with Sports Illustrated back around the time we won our second Super Bowl and he talked at considerable length about the "Country Club" (a verbatim quote IIRC) at Greeley, and even Shanahan talked about it during his time here.

Drek
02-27-2010, 12:37 PM
You proving the point. Those contract clauses are another pressure point to that turn this profession into year round job and keeps players in shape. Yes there are lazy players in league, and we hear about them because they are not the norm. Last season we had three players that didn't pass McDaniels fitness test out of 85 camp invitees. All three were cleared to play within two days.

If it wasn't a problem it wouldn't go into contracts.

A lot of guys in the NFL do not take ideal are of their bodies. I'd bet nearly 50% of the NFL would list their favorite pre-game food as some form of fast food or junk food.

But that is ultimately beside the point of this thread. What the Broncos are talking about changing is how they focus their conditioning. They had Doom focus on getting lean last off-season so he'd be faster for playing OLB and it worked. I'm sure they could generate some positive results if they have guys like Ryan McBean, Chris Baker, Kenny Peterson, etc. focus on putting on more muscle mass to give them better power out of their stances.

And ANYTHING we can do to bulk Ryan Harris up is a plus. He's had conditioning problems his entire career since high school. There is a very good chance Harris probably weighs about 280 right now, with how much time he missed last off-season. It was the story of his collegiate career, whenever he'd get hurt he'd drop well below 300 and all functional strength would disappear. He needs to be on a massive bulk up routine so that he's reporting to OTAs this year at around 305-310 if not bigger.

elsid13
02-27-2010, 02:33 PM
Really? I read an interview that Shannon Sharpe did with Sports Illustrated back around the time we won our second Super Bowl and he talked at considerable length about the "Country Club" (a verbatim quote IIRC) at Greeley, and even Shanahan talked about it during his time here.

Pull the story because I don't believe your post..

Florida_Bronco
02-27-2010, 07:15 PM
Pull the story because I don't believe your post..

Ok. Here ya go.

Yet what makes Shanahan a true Mastermind is that as intense and demanding as he may be, he nevertheless has constructed an environment that's veteran-friendly. It's an odd blend of enforced discipline and relaxed atmosphere that keeps the stars from testing the free-agent market.

"We don't practice in pads," Sharpe says. "This is a country club, a day at the beach, except we don't have sand and palm trees. And everybody in the league knows it. This is as good as it gets, and I can't see it being any better any place else."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1014690/2/index.htm

Blueflame
02-27-2010, 07:49 PM
Where in the 5 posts above yours did anyone mention injuries? (Including the quoted article & McD blurb)

Um... the point is that injuries are the "wild card in the deck" in any team's season and you can't necessarily avoid (particularly tendon-type) injuries through "power conditioning in the offseason".... and in many recent "late-seasons", the Broncos' "slump" has been directly related to key injuries to defensive starters which put the likes of Roc Alexander out there with the impossible task of guarding Reggie Wayne.

HEAV
02-28-2010, 09:43 AM
Ok. Here ya go.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1014690/2/index.htm

Sad thing is Shanny let the Club Meb go on for years after the vets left and the younger players got soft. It's a good idea to give vets a rest but not the entire team and not the young, still learning 1st,2nd and 3rd year players.

What worked for one generation of players didn't work for the next generation. The old Broncos were more hungry vets looking for a title than a mix of kids looking for pay days.

Denver needed a kick in the ass.