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KCStud
02-25-2010, 11:22 AM
Keep in mind this is Kiper that we are talking about, but ESPN is full of this rumor and Kiper has been reporting it like crazy.

If Jimmy Clausen is there at KC's 5th pick(which he should be), KC will trade Cassel to Denver for a 2nd round pick.

Kinda makes sense. Josh gets his QB and Weis gets his. I don't see this happening, but I would die laughing if this did happen.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2010, 11:23 AM
Seems like a reach to me, honestly. Guess we'll see.

atomicbloke
02-25-2010, 11:24 AM
The mane would explode if this happened.

Boobs McGee
02-25-2010, 11:29 AM
holy cow that would seriously be awesome. JUST for the pure fact that many heads around here would explode haha.

gyldenlove
02-25-2010, 11:29 AM
We would trade for a guy who was worth less than a 2nd round pick last year and didn't exactly shine for a 2nd round pick plus take over one of the worst contracts in the NFL?

I don't know where they get this stuff but it is better than epic beard and Amber Lamps.

TonyR
02-25-2010, 11:30 AM
The big problem in this scenario is that Cassel makes way too much money, or did KC already pay a lot of it out upfront?

SonOfLe-loLang
02-25-2010, 11:30 AM
If thats the case, why would denver give up a second rounder? KC backed themselves into a corner, what are the chances they will want to give 8 mil a year or whatever it is to a back up

KCStud
02-25-2010, 11:31 AM
The big problem in this scenario is that Cassel makes way too much money, or did KC already pay a lot of it out upfront?

It's frontloaded, so yes

Dagmar
02-25-2010, 11:33 AM
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/motion/2009/0410/dm_090410_Kiper_DraftPreview.jpg

TonyR
02-25-2010, 11:35 AM
It's frontloaded, so yes

So if KC already paid a lot of the bill I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility. But a 2nd round pick is probably too high even though he'd be better in Denver than he was in KC.

Houshyamama
02-25-2010, 11:36 AM
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/motion/2009/0410/dm_090410_Kiper_DraftPreview.jpg

He should broadcast from his mother's basement.

Rabb
02-25-2010, 11:37 AM
oh the meltdown would be great

Bronco Rob
02-25-2010, 11:38 AM
Chiefs QB Matt Cassel on hot seat soon?


Is QB Matt Cassel safe with the Chiefs? For now, yes. But remember, Kansas City’s price for Cassel wasn’t a cache of picks. It was simply the 34th selection in 2009 (with Mike Vrabel also coming over), and while the financial cost was steep, the Chiefs will have to make a decision... on Cassel next year at this time, when a $7.5 million option bonus is due. Kansas City maintains it is committed to the ex-Patriot, but this bears watching

— Boston Globe


???

Dagmar
02-25-2010, 11:39 AM
I feel like this thread will keep me entertained for the rest of the work day...

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 11:41 AM
Cassel sucks, we are better off with Orton

If we have a chance to get a top rookie qb though I would like that

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 11:42 AM
Cassel sucks, we are better off with Orton

If we have a chance to get a top rookie qb though I would like that

Are you kidding me right now?

Out of all QB's in the league other than Brady - Cassell would be the smoothest transition.

His mobility alone makes him better than Orton.

bowtown
02-25-2010, 11:43 AM
Why would we give a 2nd for a QB who didn't even fetch a 2nd by himself a year ago, and since has lost stock and gained a huge contract?

worm
02-25-2010, 11:43 AM
Who in the hell is Mel Kiper, anyway? I mean, here's a guy who criticizes everybody, whoever they take. In my knowledge of him, he's never even put on a jockstrap, he's never been a player, he's never been a coach, he's never been a scout, he's never been an administrator, and all of a sudden, he's an expert. Mel Kiper has no more credentials to do what he's doing than my neighbor, and my neighbor's a postman and he doesn't even have season tickets to the NFL.

Bronco Rob
02-25-2010, 11:44 AM
http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/1217







Ha!

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 11:44 AM
Are you kidding me right now?

which part?
That Cassel sucks and we are better off keeping our draft picks and Orton or that we should take a qb if we have the chance to get an elite one?

I might remind you I live in Kansas, I have seen all Cassel's games with the Chiefs, I know how good/bad he is better than most

boltaneer
02-25-2010, 11:45 AM
A 2nd doesn't make sense. Cassel's value is much lower than that right now.

Why trade him to a division rival and a coach who he has had moderate success before? Seems to me KC should draft a QB, have him compete with Cassel this year and dump Cassel next year before that option bonus is due.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 11:46 AM
which part?
That Cassel sucks and Orton is better or that we should take a qb if we have the chance to get an elite one?

I might remind you I live in Kansas, I have seen all Cassel's games with the Chiefs, I know how good/bad he is better than most

Cassell is a system QB - his transition to KC obviously wasn't good.. you can blame that on the horrible WR's, etc.

It's the same argument as putting Joe Montana on another team - he could possibly not be nearly as good because of the system.

We don't have the chance to get an "elite" QB right now.

And who knows where Cassell was headed if he stuck with this system for another year or so...

TonyR
02-25-2010, 11:48 AM
Why trade him to a division rival and a coach who he has had moderate success before?

That's another good point, unless of course they think they're fleecing us.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 11:50 AM
A 2nd doesn't make sense. Cassel's value is much lower than that right now.

Why trade him to a division rival and a coach who he has had moderate success before? Seems to me KC should draft a QB, have him compete with Cassel this year and dump Cassel next year before that option bonus is due.

MODERATE success. For a backup QB in COLLEGE and in the NFL coming in and what he did is moderate success?

The only thing moderate is the Chargers after the regular season - and "moderate" is actually overrating the Chargers after the regular season.

TonyR
02-25-2010, 11:50 AM
Why would we give a 2nd for a QB who didn't even fetch a 2nd by himself a year ago, and since has lost stock and gained a huge contract?

Although as discussed above KC has already paid a big chunk of it up front. So money may not be an issue. I agree that a 2nd is too much but you do have to stop and consider what the price is for a starting QB.

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 11:52 AM
Cassell is a system QB - his transition to KC obviously wasn't good.. you can blame that on the horrible WR's, etc.

It's the same argument as putting Joe Montana on another team - he could possibly not be nearly as good because of the system.

We don't have the chance to get an "elite" QB right now.

The Patriots gave up 50 sacks with Cassel under center
They gave up less than that in 09 and 07 combined with Brady under center

They did not forget how to block that one year, Cassel holds on to the ball way too long
He makes his oline looks worse that it really is, so you cant put all the blame on his lack of talent
He is not that accurate on anything past 15 yards, and people get on Orton about that
Cassel is a system qb, and Orton is as well
Cassel is more mobile, but Orton is smarter and is more accurate

Cassel is not a good qb, and he is not an upgrade over Orton

At best it is a push, which means it would be silly to give up any draft picks for him

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Who in the hell is Mel Kiper, anyway? I mean, here's a guy who criticizes everybody, whoever they take. In my knowledge of him, he's never even put on a jockstrap, he's never been a player, he's never been a coach, he's never been a scout, he's never been an administrator, and all of a sudden, he's an expert. Mel Kiper has no more credentials to do what he's doing than my neighbor, and my neighbor's a postman and he doesn't even have season tickets to the NFL.

No, he's never played. But his hair is so helmet-like... that probably counts for something.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Why would we give a 2nd for a QB who didn't even fetch a 2nd by himself a year ago, and since has lost stock and gained a huge contract?

Because you don't use the same trading/value logic for QB as every other position?

If you feel as if a certain QB will be elite/great in your system - the trade value at that point isn't as important.

I'm not trying to play fantasy GM here nor am I saying I'd want this to happen - but it wouldn't be surprising at all... it would be an upgrade for us...

Archer81
02-25-2010, 11:55 AM
A 2nd doesn't make sense. Cassel's value is much lower than that right now.

Why trade him to a division rival and a coach who he has had moderate success before? Seems to me KC should draft a QB, have him compete with Cassel this year and dump Cassel next year before that option bonus is due.


Keep in mind this is Kansas City...


:Broncos:

Bronco Rob
02-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Keep in mind this is Kansas City...


:Broncos:





:rofl:

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 12:04 PM
The Patriots gave up 50 sacks with Cassel under center
They gave up less than that in 09 and 07 combined with Brady under center

They did not forget how to block that one year, Cassel holds on to the ball way too long
He makes his oline looks worse that it really is, so you cant put all the blame on his lack of talent
He is not that accurate on anything past 15 yards, and people get on Orton about that
Cassel is a system qb, and Orton is as well
Cassel is more mobile, but Orton is smarter and is more accurate

Cassel is not a good qb, and he is not an upgrade over Orton

At best it is a push, which means it would be silly to give up any draft picks for him


Considering Cassel's sack's gradually decreased in NE, he obviously got better. Check how many times Orton got sacked at the end of the year last year.

Orton's arm is also a concern.

Orton is smarter and more accurate... I'm not sure how you can compute Orton being smarter, but Cassel had a higher accuracy rating and higher average yards per pass in the same system.

He makes the oline look better so you can't blame HIS lack of talent? What the hell is this suppose to mean? This MEANS that he obviously lacks something if this is happening.

Like I said - I'm not saying I WANT Cassel here, however I believe Cassel would be an upgrade over Orton. He sucked in KC - however he's a system QB and that's what people are simply missing. He can look like a whole different QB in a different system.

A 2nd might be a bit much after what he did last year with KC, but the QB is the one position where you can look back and say it was worth it. All the other positions require much more physical/less systematic aspect to it than QB does (depending on your team).

Getting Cassel would be with the idea that he can get better, not for what he is now. That's what I'm trying to imply - if he doesn't get better then NO it wouldn't be worth it.

underrated29
02-25-2010, 12:05 PM
wow. I would probably take a **** in a bucket and dump it on my head if this happened.

Killericon
02-25-2010, 12:09 PM
I wouldn't mind the price, I just don't know if he's the guy. It's not as if I'd do it if he could be had for a 3rd...If we can get a long-term solution at QB for a 2nd round pick, the answer is yes. Is he the long term solution at QB we want? I don't really know...

yerner
02-25-2010, 12:11 PM
I would like it if they could somehow get Cassel on the team to compete, but giving up any value doesnt seem appropriate. I wish they would have just got him from the beginning last offseason. I think he is vastly more talented physically than Orton.

BroncoSojia
02-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Who in the hell is Mel Kiper, anyway? I mean, here's a guy who criticizes everybody, whoever they take. In my knowledge of him, he's never even put on a jockstrap, he's never been a player, he's never been a coach, he's never been a scout, he's never been an administrator, and all of a sudden, he's an expert. Mel Kiper has no more credentials to do what he's doing than my neighbor, and my neighbor's a postman and he doesn't even have season tickets to the NFL.

LOL

I forgot who said that.

I know he was with the colts though.

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 12:17 PM
Considering Cassel's sack's gradually decreased in NE, he obviously got better. Check how many times Orton got sacked at the end of the year last year.

Orton's arm is also a concern.

Orton is smarter and more accurate... I'm not sure how you can compute this but Cassel had a higher accuracy rating and higher average yards per pass in the same system.

He makes the oline look better so you can't blame HIS lack of talent? What the hell is this suppose to mean? This MEANS that he obviously lacks something if this is happening.

Like I said - I'm not saying I WANT Cassel here, however I believe Cassel would be an upgrade over Orton. He sucked in KC - however he's a system QB and that's what people are simply missing. He can look like a whole different QB in a different system.

A 2nd might be a bit much after what he did last year with KC, but the QB is the one position where you can look back and say it was worth it. All the other positions require much more physical/less systematic aspect to it than QB does (depending on your team).

Cassel had a better cast in New England
offensive line was better
Welker > Royal and Stokely
Moss was the best deep threat in the game

Also take into account this was Orton's first year in the system
Cassel, while he didnt play, was much more familiar in the system

New England masked his faults pretty well and changed the system to help baby Cassel along the way
The training wheels came off when he went to KC and when he was asked to carry an offense he failed

Again we are talking about Cassel taking over the highest scoring offense in NFL history
He was a product of great talent, he was not good in KC
Meanwhile Orton had to work with an offensive line falling apart and no running game at all not to mention the unfamiliarity everyone had with the scheme

DrFate
02-25-2010, 12:17 PM
LOL

I forgot who said that.

I know he was with the colts though.

Jim Irsay

eddie mac
02-25-2010, 12:20 PM
Cassell is due $12m this year so do **** off.

Hamrob
02-25-2010, 12:20 PM
He's young...if we're not going to draft a guy like Bradford/Clauson...then we might as well spend a 2nd for Cassell. He's big and mobile with a strong arm. He just needs coaching.

Perhaps we have K.C. ship us their 5th round pick along with Cassell for our 2nd?

worm
02-25-2010, 12:23 PM
Jim Irsay

Bill Polian. Favorite Kiper moment ever!

cmhargrove
02-25-2010, 12:23 PM
I wonder if they would take a first for Croyle...

bap454
02-25-2010, 12:27 PM
I would rather spend season upon season in the pits with Orton than with Cassel. If somehow we ended up with Cassel and it didnt work out... could u imagine. Every redneck sister humper would be heckling us to no end. Just a risk Im not willing to take.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 12:34 PM
Cassel had a better cast in New England
offensive line was better
Welker > Royal and Stokely
Moss was the best deep threat in the game

Also take into account this was Orton's first year in the system
Cassel, while he didnt play, was much more familiar in the system

So you're going to say that Cassel being more familiar with the system gives him a bigger advantage than Orton? Even tho Orton had 2 full seasons in the NFL - you're going to tell me Cassel had an advantage here? :rofl:

Come on man, you're stretching just a bit trying to make your point.


New England masked his faults pretty well and changed the system to help baby Cassel along the way
The training wheels came off when he went to KC and when he was asked to carry an offense he failed


You mean when he went to a different system with 0 talent on his roster until Charles showed up 1/3 through the season? You're not only taking his training wheels off, you're taking his pedals, handles, and seat off too. Keep stretching. Hilarious!

And Kyle Orton's faults were masked too, as we obviously adjusted our system to his strengths and weaknesses? WTF?

That's not even a fair assessment for Cassel, wtf? Did you actually watch the games? Did you completely avoid the fact that his WR's dropped passes OVER AND OVER? Point blank passes. And yeah - this does effect your momentum and accuracy as the game goes on.

You're starting to sound like dragster, pretty much pulling anything you can, and sounding as stupid as possible holding as much bias as possible.


Again we are talking about Cassel taking over the highest scoring offense in NFL history
He was a product of great talent, he was not good in KC
Meanwhile Orton had to work with an offensive line falling apart and no running game at all not to mention the unfamiliarity everyone had with the scheme
He is a product of a system, we had already agreed on that earlier, but that's obviously not enough for you.

All I'm saying is - it's not about what Cassel is now but what he can be and how much better he can get - so stop talking in terms of face value.

Telling me he was not good in KC is not telling me much considering what else is on his resume. He's a system QB, and he looked completely different and will have more/less success depending on that.

Do you think anyone in the world thought Kyle Orton would punch out the stats he did this year with the Broncos after his stint with the Bears? Do you think anyone would consider Orton an "accurate" QB before this year? NO, it's because of the system. Think about it, Kyle Orton turned into a COMPLETELY different QB this year, do you think ANYONE thought Orton could be good in a pass heavy offense?


I'm done man, you're pretty much BSing as much as you can, and you're holding bias and completely missing my point which I've stated over and over.

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 12:43 PM
Although as discussed above KC has already paid a big chunk of it up front. So money may not be an issue. I agree that a 2nd is too much but you do have to stop and consider what the price is for a starting QB.

Cassel's contract is for 6 years and a max value of 60million with 28million guaranteed. of that 60million, 41million of it is paid out in the 1st 3 seasons. granted the Chiefs shelled out 15million of that last season that is still 26 million over the next 2 seasons we would be on the hook for with a guy who should be nothing more than a backup.

i'd rather give Orton a new deal for 3 years and pay him around 7million a season instead of taking on that albatros of a contract that Cassel has.

bowtown
02-25-2010, 12:48 PM
I agree that a 2nd is too much but you do have to stop and consider what the price is for a starting QB.

Well the price exactly one year ago for that EXACT starting QB was less than a 2nd. What has he done to make him worth more than that now?

bowtown
02-25-2010, 12:50 PM
Because you don't use the same trading/value logic for QB as every other position?

If you feel as if a certain QB will be elite/great in your system - the trade value at that point isn't as important.
I'm not trying to play fantasy GM here nor am I saying I'd want this to happen - but it wouldn't be surprising at all... it would be an upgrade for us...

Wrong. You use what the market will bear, just as you do with any other trade. If KC is looking to unload Cassel and no other team is willing to give a 2nd, then we would be idiots to give a 2nd just becasue he fit into our system.

Hamrob
02-25-2010, 12:52 PM
Cassel's contract is for 6 years and a max value of 60million with 28million guaranteed. of that 60million, 41million of it is paid out in the 1st 3 seasons. granted the Chiefs shelled out 15million of that last season that is still 26 million over the next 2 seasons we would be on the hook for with a guy who should be nothing more than a backup.

i'd rather give Orton a new deal for 3 years and pay him around 7million a season instead of taking on that albatros of a contract that Cassel has.$28m guarenteed...of which, $15m was paid. So, really, he's only owed $13m more guarenteed. You could trade for him and redo his contract perhaps.

I don't know if he's the answer or not, but he does have more upside then does Orton. The guy is mobile and has a very strong arm. The very thing I don't like about Orton is that he has limited (very limited) upside.

Hamrob
02-25-2010, 12:53 PM
Wrong. You use what the market will bear, just as you do with any other trade. If KC is looking to unload Cassel and no other team is willing to give a 2nd, then we would be idiots to give a 2nd just becasue he fit into our system.I say give them our 2nd for Cassell and their 5th rounder.

bowtown
02-25-2010, 12:53 PM
Orton is better than Cassel. There I said it.

Pick Six
02-25-2010, 12:56 PM
Cassel isn't a bad quarterback. It's not really his fault that the WRs over there couldn't catch anything. I would be happy with both Orton and Cassel...if the price is right...

Smiling Assassin27
02-25-2010, 01:06 PM
If we give up a 2nd for that dude, we deserve every broomstick love-making session we get in 2010.

Josh dodged a bullet when the Pats raped, er, traded with the Chefs for Cassel.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-25-2010, 01:10 PM
Cassel NE year and Orton's year last season were pretty dang similar, werent they?

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 01:11 PM
$28m guarenteed...of which, $15m was paid. So, really, he's only owed $13m more guarenteed. You could trade for him and redo his contract perhaps.

I don't know if he's the answer or not, but he does have more upside then does Orton. The guy is mobile and has a very strong arm. The very thing I don't like about Orton is that he has limited (very limited) upside.

is he even worth 13 million guaranteed over the next 5 years?

there are many on this site who would literally **** their pants if we guaranteed Orton that much cash over the next 5 years, and Orton is a better QB. and unlike Cassel this past season who actually caused his stock to drop, Orton at least showed he can potentially take the next step in his development and get better and raised his stock in the eyes of more than a few in the league.

also, too many have this idea that athletic ability is all that a QB needs to be successful, but if the Cutler situation proved anything, if Jeff George proved anything, it is that athletic ability will only take a QB so far. I don't care if Orton can break the pocket and run for a 20 yard gain whenever he feels like, I don't care if he can or can't throw a ball through a brick wall, all I care about is does he have enough ability to actually lead a football team, and does he have the mental ability, intelligence, leadership ability, and that characteristic that he can use to get his teammates to want to try harder for him.

Orton doesn't have great athletic ability, but he has a decent arm, is a great leader, has the mental ability to put to use what ability he does have and learn new things to make himself a better QB, he is intelligent, and his teammates love and respect the guy.

and why does Cassel supposedly have more upside than Orton?
because he is more mobile? because his arm MIGHT be a little stronger?

this is the season Cassel had in NE that got him 60million after 4 full years in the NE system

Rating 89.4 Comp 327 Attempts 516 PCT 63.4 Yards 3693 Y/A 7.2 TD 21 INT 11

This is the season Orton had last year after less than 6 months of preparation in learning the NE system

Rating 86.8 Comp 336 Attempts 541 PCT 62.1 Yards 3802 Y/A 7.0 TD 21 INT 12

Orton had damn near identical stats in his 1st season in Denver, learning a new scheme, getting familiar with new coaches, players and learning tendencies of his receivers and with bad offensive line play.

if Orton was capable of matching the stats of a guy with 4 years experience in the same system in less than 6 months of work, imagine what he will be capable of in year 2, especially if his line is better at protecting him and giving him the benefit of a solid running game. Cassel may have more athletic ability, but Orton has more upside in taking his game to a new level.

eddie mac
02-25-2010, 01:24 PM
So either pay Cassell $12m this year and flush a 2nd rd pick or pay Orton $3m and use the other $9m towards Dumervil's new deal and use the damn 2nd rounder on the deepest draft class in years.

That's a ****ing hard one isn't it.

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 01:29 PM
So either pay Cassell $12m this year and flush a 2nd rd pick or pay Orton $3m and use the other $9m towards Dumervil's new deal and use the damn 2nd rounder on the deepest draft class in years.

That's a ****ing hard one isn't it.

not only that, but at 3million Orton is still loads better than the 12 million and 2nd rounder Cassel would cost. it is the bigger bargain and we get the better player

crazyhorse
02-25-2010, 01:31 PM
is he even worth 13 million guaranteed over the next 5 years?

there are many on this site who would literally **** their pants if we guaranteed Orton that much cash over the next 5 years, and Orton is a better QB. and unlike Cassel this past season who actually caused his stock to drop, Orton at least showed he can potentially take the next step in his development and get better and raised his stock in the eyes of more than a few in the league.

also, too many have this idea that athletic ability is all that a QB needs to be successful, but if the Cutler situation proved anything, if Jeff George proved anything, it is that athletic ability will only take a QB so far. I don't care if Orton can break the pocket and run for a 20 yard gain whenever he feels like, I don't care if he can or can't throw a ball through a brick wall, all I care about is does he have enough ability to actually lead a football team, and does he have the mental ability, intelligence, leadership ability, and that characteristic that he can use to get his teammates to want to try harder for him.

Orton doesn't have great athletic ability, but he has a decent arm, is a great leader, has the mental ability to put to use what ability he does have and learn new things to make himself a better QB, he is intelligent, and his teammates love and respect the guy.

and why does Cassel supposedly have more upside than Orton?
because he is more mobile? because his arm MIGHT be a little stronger?

this is the season Cassel had in NE that got him 60million after 4 full years in the NE system

Rating 89.4 Comp 327 Attempts 516 PCT 63.4 Yards 3693 Y/A 7.2 TD 21 INT 11

This is the season Orton had last year after less than 6 months of preparation in learning the NE system

Rating 86.8 Comp 336 Attempts 541 PCT 62.1 Yards 3802 Y/A 7.0 TD 21 INT 12

Orton had damn near identical stats in his 1st season in Denver, learning a new scheme, getting familiar with new coaches, players and learning tendencies of his receivers and with bad offensive line play.

if Orton was capable of matching the stats of a guy with 4 years experience in the same system in less than 6 months of work, imagine what he will be capable of in year 2, especially if his line is better at protecting him and giving him the benefit of a solid running game. Cassel may have more athletic ability, but Orton has more upside in taking his game to a new level.


You're comparing a guy that started his 1st game since high school to an experienced starter in the NFL. Then saying the experienced QB has more upside with lesser stats.

You're not being very objective here, IMO.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 02:10 PM
You're comparing a guy that started his 1st game since high school to an experienced starter in the NFL. Then saying the experienced QB has more upside with lesser stats.

You're not being very objective here, IMO.

Exactly my thoughts. I pretty much just zoomed to the stats and what you said popped into my head. I said it in my previous posts too - people are unable to look at the whole situation and pretty much use tunnel vision.

Cassel pretty much didn't play at USC, and didn't play at all in the NFL outside of pre season games. Telling me he sat there for however many years learning the system is pretty much voided by the previous statement.

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 02:10 PM
So you're going to say that Cassel being more familiar with the system gives him a bigger advantage than Orton? Even tho Orton had 2 full seasons in the NFL - you're going to tell me Cassel had an advantage here? :rofl:

Come on man, you're stretching just a bit trying to make your point.



You mean when he went to a different system with 0 talent on his roster until Charles showed up 1/3 through the season? You're not only taking his training wheels off, you're taking his pedals, handles, and seat off too. Keep stretching. Hilarious!

And Kyle Orton's faults were masked too, as we obviously adjusted our system to his strengths and weaknesses? WTF?

That's not even a fair assessment for Cassel, wtf? Did you actually watch the games? Did you completely avoid the fact that his WR's dropped passes OVER AND OVER? Point blank passes. And yeah - this does effect your momentum and accuracy as the game goes on.

You're starting to sound like dragster, pretty much pulling anything you can, and sounding as stupid as possible holding as much bias as possible.


He is a product of a system, we had already agreed on that earlier, but that's obviously not enough for you.

All I'm saying is - it's not about what Cassel is now but what he can be and how much better he can get - so stop talking in terms of face value.

Telling me he was not good in KC is not telling me much considering what else is on his resume. He's a system QB, and he looked completely different and will have more/less success depending on that.

Do you think anyone in the world thought Kyle Orton would punch out the stats he did this year with the Broncos after his stint with the Bears? Do you think anyone would consider Orton an "accurate" QB before this year? NO, it's because of the system. Think about it, Kyle Orton turned into a COMPLETELY different QB this year, do you think ANYONE thought Orton could be good in a pass heavy offense?


I'm done man, you're pretty much BSing as much as you can, and you're holding bias and completely missing my point which I've stated over and over.

youre being a tool
Did I watch the games?
I live in Kansas, I saw every one of his games, did you?

Matt Cassel played in an offense that was already set.
It was the best offense in NFL history, all he had to do was go in and not **** it up
He sucked at first but then got better as the season went along

Kyle Orton played in an offense that was not suited for the scheme
The offensive line did not work and the running game was nonexistent
Kyle Orton had to do WAY more for our offense than Matt Cassel did for New Englands offense and Kyle had less talent to do it

The Chiefs are a bad team, but Matt Cassel did not help at all.
He proved in New England that he holds on to the ball too long.
His receivers did drop passes, but he also missed on several easy passes.
Seriously the guy couldnt hit a wide open receiver 40 yards down the field to save his life

If Matt Cassel was actually good he would of improved those around him.
That didnt happen

What is it about Cassel that makes anyone think he is worth trading draft picks over?
His mobility is not enough to make up for his weak arm
Did you watch his games?
His arm strength is terrible and outside of 15 yards he cant hit ****

You dont know what you are talking about

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 02:13 PM
You're comparing a guy that started his 1st game since high school to an experienced starter in the NFL. Then saying the experienced QB has more upside with lesser stats.

You're not being very objective here, IMO.

i am saying Orton who played his entire career in Chicago basically a baren wasteland of destitude for the QB position in 6 nmonths not only got traded to a new city, had to learn an entirely new system, learn the tendencies of new teammates nearly matched or bettered every single stat of Cassel who had 4 years experience and knowledge in that system and players. So many are saying that simply because Cassel is more mobile he has better upside. i am showing that it took Orton 6 months to catch up and replicate everything it took Cassel 4 years to accomplish, and that that shows with another season in the system, Orton will be even better than he was last season, thus he has the higher upside.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 02:17 PM
Wrong. You use what the market will bear, just as you do with any other trade. If KC is looking to unload Cassel and no other team is willing to give a 2nd, then we would be idiots to give a 2nd just becasue he fit into our system.

Wow lol.

I didn't realize how much stupidity can go in such a short post.

You completely disregarded what I said about the QB position, so you're pretty much saying the QB position is like every other position? Is this true?

If another team is willing to give a 2nd - we wouldn't get Cassel FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. So - with this assumption that we're trying to trade for Cassel - if we have to give a 2nd and we believe he will improve to a great QB, then how are we idiots from this standpoint? If another team is willing to give a 3rd, and Chiefs would expect MORE than that from the Broncos in order to get Cassel. If ANY other team in the league would want Cassel for a 3rd we would have to give more - period.

The only way you would dub the transaction as idiotic/dumb/fail is if Cassel didn't succeed. That is my point - you're not trading for Cassel at face value, especially at the QB position where a system can make you look 100x better.

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 02:21 PM
Exactly my thoughts. I pretty much just zoomed to the stats and what you said popped into my head. I said it in my previous posts too - people are unable to look at the whole situation and pretty much use tunnel vision.

Cassel pretty much didn't play at USC, and didn't play at all in the NFL outside of pre season games. Telling me he sat there for however many years learning the system is pretty much voided by the previous statement.

knowing a system and experience is a major factor in how well a QB can play for a team, and 4 years experience in 1 system for all your pro career is a big benefit.

Cassel playing on a much better offense with coaches and players he was familiar with had a decent season. Orton matched him in everything while doing on the job training. he was still learning the system as the season was going on, he was still learning his new coaches and players, and the talent around him was not nearly as good as the offense around Cassel while in NE.

Orton proved he was the better option. Everyone knows a QB takes at least a year to master a new system and now that Orton is going into season 2, he already is past his training and now gets to focus on bettering his own game and taking the next step in his career. he had a good season after a rough offseason and having to learn the scheme as quickly as possible, give him another year and he will be even better.

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 02:21 PM
youre being a tool
Did I watch the games?
I live in Kansas, I saw every one of his games, did you?

Matt Cassel played in an offense that was already set.
It was the best offense in NFL history, all he had to do was go in and not **** it up
He sucked at first but then got better as the season went along

Kyle Orton played in an offense that was not suited for the scheme
The offensive line did not work and the running game was nonexistent
Kyle Orton had to do WAY more for our offense than Matt Cassel did for New Englands offense and Kyle had less talent to do it

The Chiefs are a bad team, but Matt Cassel did not help at all.
He proved in New England that he holds on to the ball too long.
His receivers did drop passes, but he also missed on several easy passes.
Seriously the guy couldnt hit a wide open receiver 40 yards down the field to save his life

If Matt Cassel was actually good he would of improved those around him.
That didnt happen

What is it about Cassel that makes anyone think he is worth trading draft picks over?
His mobility is not enough to make up for his weak arm
Did you watch his games?
His arm strength is terrible and outside of 15 yards he cant hit ****

You dont know what you are talking about


You're starting to sound like dragster, pretty much pulling anything you can, and sounding as stupid as possible holding as much bias as possible...

I'm done man, you're pretty much BSing as much as you can, and you're holding bias and completely missing my point which I've stated over and over.

You're starting to type like dragster too with that dumbasss format...

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 02:23 PM
knowing a system and experience is a major factor in how well a QB can play for a team, and 4 years experience in 1 system for all your pro career is a big benefit.

Cassel playing on a much better offense with coaches and players he was familiar with had a decent season. Orton matched him in everything while doing on the job training. he was still learning the system as the season was going on, he was still learning his new coaches and players, and the talent around him was not nearly as good as the offense around Cassel while in NE.

Orton proved he was the better option. Everyone knows a QB takes at least a year to master a new system and now that Orton is going into season 2, he already is past his training and now gets to focus on bettering his own game and taking the next step in his career. he had a good season after a rough offseason and having to learn the scheme as quickly as possible, give him another year and he will be even better.

Cassel never started a real game since HS.

End of story.

Atwater His Ass
02-25-2010, 02:24 PM
cripple fight

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 02:26 PM
cripple fight

I'm honestly confused - when I try and defend Orton everyone comes out to say he's the worst QB ever and anyone would be an upgrade.

When I agree with that - everyone comes out to say no, he's great.

WTF?

Doggcow
02-25-2010, 02:30 PM
cripple fight

I LOL'd

Dr. Broncenstein
02-25-2010, 02:33 PM
Do it for the lulz

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 02:41 PM
You're starting to type like dragster too with that dumbasss format...

lets see:
Kyle Orton's first year in the "system"
3800 yards 21 TDs 12 INTs 86.8 rating

Matt Cassel's first year in the "system"
3700 yards 21 TDs 11 INTs 89.4 rating

No youre right that is just a huge freaking upgrade
Considering Cassel had more talent on his team, yeah how the **** did this guy last till the 6th round
I mean he is so mobile right

If Cassel can grow into the offense, then so can Orton, they are the same age

Have fun being Lex 2.0

boltaneer
02-25-2010, 02:43 PM
MODERATE success. For a backup QB in COLLEGE and in the NFL coming in and what he did is moderate success?

The only thing moderate is the Chargers after the regular season - and "moderate" is actually overrating the Chargers after the regular season.

Wow, looks like I struck a nerve here. What does this have to do with Cassel?

I thought Cassel played well (not great) in 2008. Orton this year actually reminded me of Cassel in NE. Dink and dunk, just don't lose the game kind of offense and playcalling. Both guys had playmakers at their dispos but yet it was a very conservative, boring offense. In fact, if you look at their numbers for those two years, it's very similar.

Neither of them are the type where you want them under center with two minutes to go and the game on the line. But they're good enough quarterbacks to win with if you surround them with the right people and in the right system.

Yeah, Cassel has the nice underdog/cinderella type of story going for him but that's only going to take you so far. Chances are the guy just isn't going to be a great quarterback otherwise he would have shown it by now. McDaniels wanted Cassel because he was familiar with him and vice versa and really there wasn't much else to choose from. But at this point, Orton is playing just as well as Cassel. I don't see Cassel as an upgrade at all and I'm certainly no fan of Orton.

But hey, I hope this scenario comes true and Denver blows a second round pick on him and takes over his big salary.

underrated29
02-25-2010, 02:45 PM
ummm...... guys....


Both Qbs aren't very good. Good enough to get by but thats it.




Its like arguing which is better. Winning Gold in the special Olympics or not being retarded.

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2010, 02:46 PM
ummm...... guys....


Both Qbs aren't very good. Good enough to get by but thats it.




Its like arguing which is better. Winning Gold in the special Olympics or being retarded.

winning gold is better
its better to be a champion who happens to be retarded than just a retarded person

The MVPlaya
02-25-2010, 02:49 PM
Have fun being Lex 2.0

LOL

I had to laugh at that one... he was one of my top haters... what happened to him anyways? Did he get banned?

underrated29
02-25-2010, 02:51 PM
winning gold is better
its better to be a champion who happens to be retarded than just a retarded person

lol...i left out the "not"....my bad. I fixed it now.

Popps
02-25-2010, 03:07 PM
LOL

I had to laugh at that one... he was one of my top haters... what happened to him anyways? Did he get banned?

http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/toilet%20flush.jpg

azbroncfan
02-25-2010, 03:15 PM
Cassel would be pretty good here in Denver. I'd take him.

chrisp
02-25-2010, 03:30 PM
Scott Pioli has just said they're NOT looking for a Qb in the draft so can we end thsi thread now please?

...............OK, thought not......well i tried anyway...

crazyhorse
02-25-2010, 03:31 PM
i am saying Orton who played his entire career in Chicago basically a baren wasteland of destitude for the QB position in 6 nmonths not only got traded to a new city, had to learn an entirely new system, learn the tendencies of new teammates nearly matched or bettered every single stat of Cassel who had 4 years experience and knowledge in that system and players. So many are saying that simply because Cassel is more mobile he has better upside. i am showing that it took Orton 6 months to catch up and replicate everything it took Cassel 4 years to accomplish, and that that shows with another season in the system, Orton will be even better than he was last season, thus he has the higher upside.

Where you are thinking upside, Im thinking maxed out. He got worse as the season wore on. Of course I could be wrong. But I doubt it. I dont know how good or bad Cassel is. I do know he improved as the season wore on. But I do know Orton sucks. He had a couple decent games. But just like Cassel, you could tell the coach had little confidense in the passing game. The difference was that the Broncos had a talented roster that Orton did nothing with. Cassel had 3rd and 4th string WRS to throw to most of the season coupled with one of the worst o lines in the league. Orton would have looked at least as bad in KCs offense under the same circumstances. IMO

strafen
02-25-2010, 04:00 PM
I thought the addition of Charlie Weiss as the KC offensive coordinator will help Cassel.
This may backfire on the chiefs...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2010, 04:09 PM
How long til Cassel catches wind of this and demands a trade?


Oh. Wait. He's a professional athlete, not a little girl with a skinned knee.

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 04:11 PM
Cassel would be pretty good here in Denver. I'd take him.

without that bloated contract and if he could be had for a 4th or later, then i would be interested anything else and it is a big fat HELL NO!

BroncoMan4ever
02-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Where you are thinking upside, Im thinking maxed out. He got worse as the season wore on. Of course I could be wrong. But I doubt it. I dont know how good or bad Cassel is. I do know he improved as the season wore on. But I do know Orton sucks. He had a couple decent games. But just like Cassel, you could tell the coach had little confidense in the passing game. The difference was that the Broncos had a talented roster that Orton did nothing with. Cassel had 3rd and 4th string WRS to throw to most of the season coupled with one of the worst o lines in the league. Orton would have looked at least as bad in KCs offense under the same circumstances. IMO

i understand that concern and believe it is a legit concern to have for many people. but i am looking at his play over the 1st half of the season as who Orton really is. his finger was messed up but he was still relatively healthy. 2nd half of the season his ankle was completely wrecked, stepping into throws, any type of movement was painful and caused his play to suffer.

i also have trouble taking to much into how he played the 2nd half of the season, because technically the entire team, all 3 phases of the game, Offense, Defense, and ST all had significant dropoffs in their play.

and even with the dropoff in play by Orton over the 2nd half of the season, he still threw more TDs than INTs over that span.

boppool
02-25-2010, 05:23 PM
Cassel for Simms

Take it or leave it...

GoHAM
02-25-2010, 05:41 PM
Bill Polian. Favorite Kiper moment ever!

Bill Tobin :wave:

crazyhorse
02-25-2010, 06:16 PM
i understand that concern and believe it is a legit concern to have for many people. but i am looking at his play over the 1st half of the season as who Orton really is. his finger was messed up but he was still relatively healthy. 2nd half of the season his ankle was completely wrecked, stepping into throws, any type of movement was painful and caused his play to suffer.

i also have trouble taking to much into how he played the 2nd half of the season, because technically the entire team, all 3 phases of the game, Offense, Defense, and ST all had significant dropoffs in their play.

and even with the dropoff in play by Orton over the 2nd half of the season, he still threw more TDs than INTs over that span.

Fair enough. I'm certainly no expert on Orton, so I wont hang my reputaion on what I simply think is the case.

I will say this. A 4th rounder is for a backup QB. You dont want to trade a 4th rounder. A 1 or a 2 is for a starter. You want a starter. Whether that is Orton we disagree. But throwing 4th rouinders away is not in the best interest of the Broncos. If you tradewd a 2nd for Cassel and he bacme the starter then he would be worth the pick.

I reemember being very skeptical over us giving up a 1st for T.Green. In retrospect, I would do it every 5 years if I could. You just never know for sure. One thing I do know, is I have seen Cassel play like he was one of the top 10 in the league if not better with talent around him. The Broncos have talent. Why Orton couldn't maximize that talent is for everyone to figure out on thier own. But the Cassel that played in NE was worth a second.

KipCorrington25
02-25-2010, 06:36 PM
Both Cassel and Orton suck but I'd take Cassel if all things were equal but not with that contract. Pass

DenverBrit
02-25-2010, 07:03 PM
Oh yes, I can see the Mane enjoying this move if it ever happened. Ha!

http://www.anatomorphex.com/picts/shatter/FX013_EXPLODING_HEAD.jpg

gyldenlove
02-25-2010, 07:09 PM
Fair enough. I'm certainly no expert on Orton, so I wont hang my reputaion on what I simply think is the case.

I will say this. A 4th rounder is for a backup QB. You dont want to trade a 4th rounder. A 1 or a 2 is for a starter. You want a starter. Whether that is Orton we disagree. But throwing 4th rouinders away is not in the best interest of the Broncos. If you tradewd a 2nd for Cassel and he bacme the starter then he would be worth the pick.

I reemember being very skeptical over us giving up a 1st for T.Green. In retrospect, I would do it every 5 years if I could. You just never know for sure. One thing I do know, is I have seen Cassel play like he was one of the top 10 in the league if not better with talent around him. The Broncos have talent. Why Orton couldn't maximize that talent is for everyone to figure out on thier own. But the Cassel that played in NE was worth a second.

Both New England and Kansas disagree with you there skipper since they didn't even pay a 2nd rounder for him.

lostknight
02-25-2010, 08:21 PM
It's Mel. His record is as good as McDaniel's second half standings last year.

SoCalBronco
02-25-2010, 08:51 PM
Kinda makes sense. Josh gets his QB and Weis gets his. I don't see this happening, but I would die laughing if this did happen.

It makes no sense for the Chiefs from a financial perspective. They paid Cassel a very large signing bonus just last year and if he were traded, the unamortized portion would all hit the cap at once (or over 2 years if it were after June I believe). There's nothing Denver can realistically offer the Chiefs to compensate for that kind of a hit. It's not just the value of the player, its the value of the cap hit. That's its currently an uncapped situation does not change things. Everyone is about to start operating in uncharted territory. Suppose the Chiefs made the trade and the guaranteed sums hit the balance sheet at once. Then, an agreement was reached prior to the season or during the season. That agreement would undoubtedly include a re-institution of the cap after you've done all this free wheeling. You'd have to pay the piper for what you've done and it would hurt. Big time.

Nobody should be naively taking on big cap hits on the assumption that the uncapped problem isn't going to be resolved, or that when its resolved, whatever risks they chose to take won't come back and bite them in the ass. I'd be shocked if Pioli was this stupid. The whole league is going to act conservatively this summer, IMO. Economics aside, I doubt the Chiefs would be so willing to help a rival unless the price was absolutely exorbitant.

azbroncfan
02-25-2010, 09:45 PM
Both New England and Kansas disagree with you there skipper since they didn't even pay a 2nd rounder for him.

KC traded a 2nd for Cassel if that is who your talking about.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/02/28/chiefs.trade.for.cassel/index.html

Bob's your Information Minister
02-26-2010, 01:33 AM
It makes no sense for the Chiefs from a financial perspective. They paid Cassel a very large signing bonus just last year and if he were traded, the unamortized portion would all hit the cap at once (or over 2 years if it were after June I believe). There's nothing Denver can realistically offer the Chiefs to compensate for that kind of a hit.

This is pretty murky actually. Cassel is making $31 million in the first two years of his deal, or roughly half the entire contract. He is also owed another 7.5 million roster bonus next season. Of course he can't collect that if he's not on the roster.

The Chiefs can get away with dumping him after this season and feel almost no effects cap-wise whatsoever from what I understand.

Now this might be different, I suppose, if he were traded this season.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-26-2010, 06:09 AM
This is pretty murky actually. Cassel is making $31 million in the first two years of his deal, or roughly half the entire contract. He is also owed another 7.5 million roster bonus next season. Of course he can't collect that if he's not on the roster.

The Chiefs can get away with dumping him after this season and feel almost no effects cap-wise whatsoever from what I understand.

Now this might be different, I suppose, if he were traded this season.

Interesting. SO KC could still draft Claussen, sit him for a year, then trade/release Cassel next off-season?

I have to wonder if this is really the end of the Claussen to KC rumor... Big Fat Weis loves that kid.

Hamrob
02-26-2010, 07:40 AM
I could see them takin Clausen. It will come down to whether they want to take a guy like Berry, a Tackle like Okung or a LB like McClain or Clausen. What's the best value...what's the biggest need. I think it's a close call for them. They'll have a hard time passing on a LT. But outside of that...I could see them pulling the trigger for Clausen.

If Okung goes 4 to the Skins...then they very well could take Clausen.

Bob's your Information Minister
02-26-2010, 08:33 AM
They'll have a hard time passing on a LT. .

Not really. Albert had some growing pains last year but he worked through them by season's end.

Berry would be a much better pick than Okung for the Chiefs.

Hamrob
02-26-2010, 12:15 PM
Not really. Albert had some growing pains last year but he worked through them by season's end.

Berry would be a much better pick than Okung for the Chiefs.I don't know if you played Albert at guard along side Okung...that would be pretty nice. I'm not sold on Albert at LT.

Tom A Hawk
02-26-2010, 12:18 PM
Are you kidding me right now?

Out of all QB's in the league other than Brady - Cassell would be the smoothest transition.

His mobility alone makes him better than Orton.

the reason he is so mobile is because he isn't smart enought to step up in the pocket and get rid of the ball. Cassels accuracy is a lot to be desired as well. Please take him off the Cheifs hands.

400HZ
02-26-2010, 01:03 PM
This deal seems unrealistic because of the salary cap considerations, but I'm still pulling for it. It's lose-lose for both teams. Denver gives up a high draft pick and picks up a huge contract for a marginal (if anything) upgrade at quarterback. KC blows their top pick on a quarterback who isn't going to be any better than Cassell. Hmm. Whats not to like?

Bob's your Information Minister
02-26-2010, 06:52 PM
I don't know if you played Albert at guard along side Okung...that would be pretty nice. I'm not sold on Albert at LT.

How many times do I have to say it? Albert weighs 305 pounds. He is not a fit at guard anymore.

Albert SHUT DOWN Dumervil in Week 17 last year, when he had finally adjusted to his new body and playing technique.

BroncoMan4ever
02-26-2010, 06:59 PM
How many times do I have to say it? Albert weighs 305 pounds. He is not a fit at guard anymore.

Albert SHUT DOWN Dumervil in Week 17 last year, when he had finally adjusted to his new body and playing technique.

wasn't it brought up a few days ago that it seemed likely that KC would be moving him to RT?

TotallyScrewed
02-26-2010, 06:59 PM
How long til Cassel catches wind of this and demands a trade?


Oh. Wait. He's a professional athlete, not a little girl with a skinned knee.

Always the same....where's the whaaaaaaammbluance?

Archer81
02-26-2010, 07:14 PM
Always the same....where's the whaaaaaaammbluance?


Amber Lamps?

http://tinyurl.com/yccbore




:Broncos:

Bob's your Information Minister
02-27-2010, 01:16 AM
wasn't it brought up a few days ago that it seemed likely that KC would be moving him to RT?

That assclown Burger Bill wrote some pure uninformed speculation on that subject, and idiots took it as gospel.

BroncoBuff
02-27-2010, 01:32 AM
That assclown Burger Bill wrote some pure uninformed speculation on that subject, and idiots took it as gospel.

Remind you of anybody?

BroncoMan4ever
02-27-2010, 02:31 AM
That assclown Burger Bill wrote some pure uninformed speculation on that subject, and idiots took it as gospel.

relax, i was simply asking a question. i knew i had seen it somewhere and thought i would get the actual truth from the only KC fan i know.

uplink
03-01-2010, 07:24 PM
I see your Bianca Beauchamp picture and raise you

BroncoMan4ever
03-01-2010, 07:50 PM
I see your Bianca Beauchamp picture and raise you

i win

http://media.glam0ur.com/gals/bianca_beauchamp/10/thumbs/bianca_beauchamp_019.jpg