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Bronco Rob
02-21-2010, 06:18 AM
Broncos won't commit to Orton beyond 2010


Posted Feb. 19, 2010 @ 10:38 a.m.
By Dan Parr

The Broncos struck down reports that they are one of a few teams interested in trading for Eagles QB Donovan McNabb, but that doesn't mean they are committed to Kyle Orton as their long-term answer at quarterback, we hear. McNabb, who has played his entire career in the West Coast offense, would have to adjust to playing in a entirely different system run by head coach Josh McDaniels, and the Broncos would have to give up valuable draft picks to acquire him. He doesn't appear to be a good fit for Denver. Orton, after a strong start last season, declined down the stretch and there are questions about how long McDaniels will stick with him before he pursues a new signalcaller. Orton, who still had a solid showing overall in 2009 he had a TD-INT ratio of 21-12 will become a restricted free agent March 5, but the Broncos are expected to issue him a one-year tender.



http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/02/19/broncos-wont-commit-to-orton-beyond-2010

bowtown
02-21-2010, 06:33 AM
Weird headline.. doesn't really have anything to do with the article.

Man-Goblin
02-21-2010, 06:45 AM
I'm starting to get the feeling that all of the Broncos' RFAs are going to get the high tender.

Beantown Bronco
02-21-2010, 07:13 AM
I'm starting to get the feeling that all of the Broncos' RFAs are going to get the high tender.

Unless there's some real breakthrough in the VERY near future with the CBA, or Bowlen has some inside info that allows him to conclude that a lockout will definitely not happen in 2011, then it would be in the organization's best interest to do just that.

ColoradoDarin
02-21-2010, 07:55 AM
Unless there's some real breakthrough in the VERY near future with the CBA, or Bowlen has some inside info that allows him to conclude that a lockout will definitely not happen in 2011, then it would be in the organization's best interest to do just that.

Bingo. It's the smart move for the Broncos.

HEAV
02-21-2010, 08:43 AM
Every team is going to be looking for one year deals with players. 2011 is a huge paper-weight on the desk of personel people and agents.

Taco John
02-21-2010, 09:40 AM
I wonder what happens with Orton if we break into the playoffs next year with him.

gyldenlove
02-21-2010, 09:47 AM
I wonder what happens with Orton if we break into the playoffs next year with him.

We draft a QB in the 1st round, that is what we did last time we made it to the playoffs with an average but winning QB.

bombquixote
02-21-2010, 09:48 AM
I wonder what happens with Orton if we break into the playoffs next year with him.

We won't win a superbowl.

peacepipe
02-21-2010, 09:50 AM
Our defense had more to do with us going to the AFC championship game that year then Plummer. Shanahan had to dumb down the entire playbook just to keep Plummer from making to many mistakes. Champs int against NE is just one example of our defense making the differance that year.

broncosteven
02-21-2010, 10:59 AM
Our defense had more to do with us going to the AFC championship game that year then Plummer. Shanahan had to dumb down the entire playbook just to keep Plummer from making to many mistakes. Champs int against NE is just one example of our defense making the differance that year.

But Plummer had MOXIE!





...until he was forced to stay inside the pocket...

HEAV
02-21-2010, 11:24 AM
I wonder what happens with Orton if we break into the playoffs next year with him.

Nothing. Once the 2010 season ends (playoffs,Super Bowl, Pro Bowl) the Owners will lockout the players and a freeze will be put on NFL business. No Free agents,Draft.... nothing.

strafen
02-21-2010, 11:34 AM
I wonder what happens with Orton if we break into the playoffs next year with him.We will have screwed up our chances of a good pick in the 2011 draft.

bombquixote
02-21-2010, 11:48 AM
Our defense had more to do with us going to the AFC championship game that year then Plummer. Shanahan had to dumb down the entire playbook just to keep Plummer from making to many mistakes. Champs int against NE is just one example of our defense making the differance that year.

Plummer had a better arm than Orton and was WAAAAAAAYYY more mobile. He also had a great TD/Int ratio in 2005. So yes, he did actually help get us to the AFC championship game.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-21-2010, 12:38 PM
Plummer had a better arm than Orton and was WAAAAAAAYYY more mobile. He also had a great TD/Int ratio in 2005. So yes, he did actually help get us to the AFC championship game.

Don't know if I agree that he had a better arm than Orton. In fact, I think that's where the two quarterbacks are most comparable.

As far as mobility, it's no comparison. But Plummer also had trouble on deeper throws, and was a true scattershot with his passing.

Crushaholic
02-21-2010, 12:49 PM
I agree with Heav. This is a non-story, due to the impending lockout...

BroncoBuff
02-21-2010, 01:11 PM
I agree with Heav. This is a non-story, due to the impending lockout...

Yeah, this story is about business not football.

Rabb
02-21-2010, 01:14 PM
We won't win a superbowl.

that's the spirit!

::)

KipCorrington25
02-21-2010, 01:23 PM
I saw all I wanted to see of what Orton is made of in the last KC game.

Dagmar
02-21-2010, 01:44 PM
I saw all I wanted to see of what Orton is made of in the last KC game.

Kyle Orton will take us to the playoffs in 2010.
I guarantee it.

SoCalBronco
02-21-2010, 01:46 PM
Much props to the organization if true. Do NOT give him anything long term. He's a fine stopgap, but nothing more.

peacepipe
02-21-2010, 01:48 PM
Plummer had a better arm than Orton and was WAAAAAAAYYY more mobile. He also had a great TD/Int ratio in 2005. So yes, he did actually help get us to the AFC championship game.Better arm maybe but just as bad as orton when it came to accuracy. As I pointed out his TD/INT ratio was only a result of shanahan dumbing down the playbook.

SoCalBronco
02-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Kyle Orton will take us to the playoffs in 2010.
I guarantee it.

Well...we may make the playoffs....that's not the same thing as Orton taking us to the playoffs. Each player should be judged on their OWN performance. Jay Barker was the QB on the 1992 national champions. Jay Barker was garbage. Everyone is evaluated on their own merits.

snowspot66
02-21-2010, 02:08 PM
Our defense had more to do with us going to the AFC championship game that year then Plummer. Shanahan had to dumb down the entire playbook just to keep Plummer from making to many mistakes. Champs int against NE is just one example of our defense making the differance that year.

That dumbed down offense still put up around 4 or 5 more ppg than any offense we've had since.

Dagmar
02-21-2010, 02:15 PM
Well...we may make the playoffs....that's not the same thing as Orton taking us to the playoffs. Each player should be judged on their OWN performance. Jay Barker was the QB on the 1992 national champions. Jay Barker was garbage. Everyone is evaluated on their own merits.

Kyle Orton had better stats than Jay Cutler this year. If that is your creed, that players should be judged on their OWN performance why do you still pine for Jay?

BroncoBuff
02-21-2010, 02:25 PM
Kyle Orton had better stats than Jay Cutler this year. If that is your creed, that players should be judged on their OWN performance why do you still pine for Jay?

He never mentioned Cutler, you're just trying to start a fight ... :redpunch:

You called your shot, Orton leads Broncos to 2010 playoffs. Now we'll see.

SoCalBronco
02-21-2010, 02:28 PM
Kyle Orton had better stats than Jay Cutler this year. If that is your creed, that players should be judged on their OWN performance why do you still pine for Jay?

Because defenses are actually afraid of Jay. Jay has a more diverse set of skills that can hurt a defense in many ways. He can scramble. He can evade rushers. He has velocity. The pass routes that can be used are far greater. That doesn't mean he does'nt have flaws, but he's just a greater weapon that Kyle Orton. As for stats, that's a pretty lazy comparison. It's not fact intensive at all. Kyle had better QB coaching, a better line, and far better weapons to work with and a more balanced offense. I wonder how poorly he would do with Chicago? Oh wait...we don't have to guess...we already know.

Look...he's a fine stopgap and tries his best. His risk averse style does have benefits to it, but he simply doesn't scare anyone by himself and doesn't have anywhere near the full complement of physical skills needed. Orton is fine for 2010, but not the long term. Perhaps in next year's draft we can somehow get our hands on Jake Locker. That would be sweet.

~Crash~
02-21-2010, 02:35 PM
Kyle Orton will take us to the playoffs in 2010.
I guarantee it.

with what might I ask ?

Drek
02-21-2010, 02:50 PM
Because defenses are actually afraid of Jay. Jay has a more diverse set of skills that can hurt a defense in many ways. He can scramble. He can evade rushers. He has velocity. The pass routes that can be used are far greater. That doesn't mean he does'nt have flaws, but he's just a greater weapon that Kyle Orton. As for stats, that's a pretty lazy comparison. It's not fact intensive at all. Kyle had better QB coaching, a better line, and far better weapons to work with and a more balanced offense. I wonder how poorly he would do with Chicago? Oh wait...we don't have to guess...we already know.
And what we know is that he outperformed Cutler both statistically (by a small margin) and in terms of W/L's (+2 games, significant).

So all the weapons Cutler brings aren't really doing him a whole lot of good. A penchant for choking in the red zone and in big games will do that to you.


Orton is a good QB. He's not great, he's not even "very good". He's just good. Definitively above average in other words. He very rarely costs you games, he typically does a little to help you win, and every few weeks he does a lot to help you win.

The knocks on his physical skills are all things people had with regards to Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and to a slightly lesser extent Peyton Manning. All three of them refined their games and overcame them. Orton happens to have the same coach who helped Tom Brady make his improvements.

Thats not to say Orton is going to become one of those guys, but Orton is better than what a lot of teams have. He's a guy you roll with until you find something better, and like any position where you don't have a future HOFer you're always looking for something better.

Here's my viewpoint on Orton. He had an 86.8 QB rating last year. I know QB rating isn't the be all end all of judging a QB, but I can't think of too many 90+ QB rating guys who weren't a benefit to their team. Orton is 3.2 points away from that bar. Can he pick up 3.2 points given an interior OL that actually fits the offensive scheme and a full off-season of work on both his mental and physical approach to the game from McDaniels? I think he can. And if he does that he's about as good as we're going to get until we uncover our own Tom Brady or Drew Brees.

Dagmar
02-21-2010, 02:52 PM
with what might I ask ?

My gigantic balls.

:-*

Dagmar
02-21-2010, 02:53 PM
He never mentioned Cutler, you're just trying to start a fight ... :redpunch:

You called your shot, Orton leads Broncos to 2010 playoffs. Now we'll see.

I have a feeling my post has been bookmarked... :strong:

BroncoBuff
02-21-2010, 03:03 PM
Hahaha, no, not bookmarked.

Not much to argue with there, we both want the same thing. Too often we forget that ...

Rabb
02-21-2010, 03:04 PM
I saw all I wanted to see of what Orton is made of in the last KC game.

that is just irresponsible to judge the guy off of one single game after he played well all season

he may not be the QBOTF here, but he wasn't our problem in 2009 folks, hate to tell you that

Hercules Rockefeller
02-21-2010, 03:23 PM
Nothing. Once the 2010 season ends (playoffs,Super Bowl, Pro Bowl) the Owners will lockout the players and a freeze will be put on NFL business. No Free agents,Draft.... nothing.

The draft occurs regardless of whether or not there's a lockout.

bombquixote
02-21-2010, 03:44 PM
Don't know if I agree that he had a better arm than Orton. In fact, I think that's where the two quarterbacks are most comparable.

As far as mobility, it's no comparison. But Plummer also had trouble on deeper throws, and was a true scattershot with his passing.

Well, he was no Jay Cutler. :wiggle:

But truly, Plummer played with fire and had talent. It wasn't just the Defense in 2005. Plummer did his share. He had jack for a receiving core, and Mike Anderson and Rueben "the sandwich" Jones for a running game. He did well.

rastaman
02-21-2010, 03:53 PM
Orton's goal is to become one of the top 5 veteran back up QB in the league. If no one can see this.....then they have much to learn.

Orton has a 10-17 year career as a back up QB and this was his end game all along. Orton stands to make a lot of money or as much money as he can over the next 7-17 years. Veteran back up QB's will make at least 2-3.5 million dollars a year! Ole' willy Kyle Orton could walk away from the NFL having earned 20-35 million bucks before its all said and done.

Requiem
02-21-2010, 03:57 PM
I'm not sure I've heard better news all week.

DBroncos4life
02-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Orton's goal is to become one of the top 5 veteran back up QB in the league. If no one can see this.....then they have much to learn.

Orton has a 10-17 year career as a back up QB and this was his end game all along. Orton stands to make a lot of money or as much money as he can over the next 7-17 years. Veteran back up QB's will make at least 2-3.5 million dollars a year! Ole' willy Kyle Orton could walk away from the NFL having earned 20-35 million bucks before its all said and done.

What is it with you and players goals? Every player has the same goals, win, get paid, and remain healthy. The order of those might not always be the same but they all remain for EVERY player. You act like you have some great insight to the minds of players in the NFL. :rofl:

rastaman
02-21-2010, 04:13 PM
What is it with you and players goals? Every player has the same goals, win, get paid, and remain healthy. The order of those might not always be the same but they all remain for EVERY player. You act like you have some great insight to the minds of players in the NFL. :rofl:

Yo Holmes.....I don't begrudge a player milking an owner for as much dough as possible! Besides its only money and NFL owners got plenty of it.

More power to where else can he make that type of money btwn the ages of 27-40! :thumbsup:

Orton just might end up as Jay Cutler's back up. Boy the Irony.

broncswin
02-21-2010, 04:31 PM
Yo Holmes.....I don't begrudge a player milking an owner for as much dough as possible! Besides its only money and NFL owners got plenty of it.

More power to where else can he make that type of money btwn the ages of 27-40! :thumbsup:

Orton just might end up as Jay Cutler's back up. Boy the Irony.

Boy that would be one shiatty team:thanku:

DBroncos4life
02-21-2010, 04:32 PM
Yo Holmes.....I don't begrudge a player milking an owner for as much dough as possible! Besides its only money and NFL owners got plenty of it.

More power to where else can he make that type of money btwn the ages of 27-40! :thumbsup:

Orton just might end up as Jay Cutler's back up. Boy the Irony.

Or Cutler might end up Orton's back up.

carlosgmz1
02-21-2010, 07:38 PM
or cutler might end up orton's back up.

+1 lol LOL Hilarious!

strafen
02-21-2010, 08:22 PM
Or Cutler might end up Orton's back up.Hilarious!ROFL!LOL

gyldenlove
02-21-2010, 08:33 PM
And what we know is that he outperformed Cutler both statistically (by a small margin) and in terms of W/L's (+2 games, significant).

So all the weapons Cutler brings aren't really doing him a whole lot of good. A penchant for choking in the red zone and in big games will do that to you.


Orton is a good QB. He's not great, he's not even "very good". He's just good. Definitively above average in other words. He very rarely costs you games, he typically does a little to help you win, and every few weeks he does a lot to help you win.

The knocks on his physical skills are all things people had with regards to Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and to a slightly lesser extent Peyton Manning. All three of them refined their games and overcame them. Orton happens to have the same coach who helped Tom Brady make his improvements.

Thats not to say Orton is going to become one of those guys, but Orton is better than what a lot of teams have. He's a guy you roll with until you find something better, and like any position where you don't have a future HOFer you're always looking for something better.

Here's my viewpoint on Orton. He had an 86.8 QB rating last year. I know QB rating isn't the be all end all of judging a QB, but I can't think of too many 90+ QB rating guys who weren't a benefit to their team. Orton is 3.2 points away from that bar. Can he pick up 3.2 points given an interior OL that actually fits the offensive scheme and a full off-season of work on both his mental and physical approach to the game from McDaniels? I think he can. And if he does that he's about as good as we're going to get until we uncover our own Tom Brady or Drew Brees.

Cutler had more yards and more TDs than Orton in Denver and Chicago.

Cutler made our offensive line look all time good, Orton made it look in dire need of upgrade, Cutler made Eddie Royal a weapon and with him Michael Pittman and Peyton Hillis had 100 yard rushing games in short stints as starters, with Orton Eddie Royal was a non-factor and Knowshon Moreno couldn't crack 100 yards in a game despite having a whole season.

Cutler lead one of the best red zone offenses last year, this year Orton lead one of the 10 worst - who is choking in the red zone?

Talk about big games, Orton is no better than Cutler, getting ass-raped at home by the Chiefs in a must-win game.

The most redeeming thing about Orton is that he is a lot cheaper, if he loses that quality he has nothing keeping him in Denver and should be gone, if all we need is a warm body to put on the depth chart Tom Brandstater or Daunte Culpepper will do just fine.

carlosgmz1
02-21-2010, 09:45 PM
Cutler had more yards and more TDs than Orton in Denver and Chicago.

Cutler made our offensive line look all time good, Orton made it look in dire need of upgrade, Cutler made Eddie Royal a weapon and with him Michael Pittman and Peyton Hillis had 100 yard rushing games in short stints as starters, with Orton Eddie Royal was a non-factor and Knowshon Moreno couldn't crack 100 yards in a game despite having a whole season.

Cutler lead one of the best red zone offenses last year, this year Orton lead one of the 10 worst - who is choking in the red zone?

Talk about big games, Orton is no better than Cutler, getting ass-raped at home by the Chiefs in a must-win game.

The most redeeming thing about Orton is that he is a lot cheaper, if he loses that quality he has nothing keeping him in Denver and should be gone, if all we need is a warm body to put on the depth chart Tom Brandstater or Daunte Culpepper will do just fine.

Cutler also has A LOT!!!! more picks than orton :rofl:

That could have been because Kyle Orton would choose to get sacked at times than to force the ball and turn it over and the line was switching schemes!

Our red zone offense was not Good at all last year! We would drive on teams between the red zone's but as soon as we got in there we would struggle to score, look at our ppg last year! We weren't that good!

Don't forget how cutler started against their rivals in Green bay, 4 picks i believe! Plus last year 3 games left and we need ONE WIN TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS! How many of those did cutler win? NONE

That last comment was just stupid so I won't reply to it!

So yea.... :thumbs: :thanku: !Booya!

Dagmar
02-21-2010, 10:19 PM
I like this new guy.

BroncoMan4ever
02-21-2010, 10:26 PM
i'm not surprised. i like the guy, but why commit to him when you aren't sure if he is the guy. he did a good job last season, but it still wasn't so great of a job where it is imperitive for them to give him big money and lock him down longterm. i agree, give him a 1 year tender and then next season if he shows he is the guy, give him a new deal, if he doesn't thank him for his 2 years and send him on his way.

DBroncos4life
02-21-2010, 10:36 PM
Cutler also has A LOT!!!! more picks than orton :rofl:

That could have been because Kyle Orton would choose to get sacked at times than to force the ball and turn it over and the line was switching schemes!

Our red zone offense was not Good at all last year! We would drive on teams between the red zone's but as soon as we got in there we would struggle to score, look at our ppg last year! We weren't that good!

Don't forget how cutler started against their rivals in Green bay, 4 picks i believe! Plus last year 3 games left and we need ONE WIN TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS! How many of those did cutler win? NONE

That last comment was just stupid so I won't reply to it!

So yea.... :thumbs: :thanku: !Booya!
I just really sucks knowing how bad the red zone offense was last year only have it get WORSE in 09. We picked up less first downs and our third down pct dropped 10%. Turnovers are the worst but not to far behind is 3 and outs and not picking up first downs period. The Bears problems are something I don't care about. It's awesome if you want to take some kind of moral victory in Cutler struggling but we ****ing failed too. The way I see it in Cutler's career season in 08 we got 8 wins. Orton's career year got us 8 wins. That is NOT what we are looking for. The same people that are blowing off Cutler's numbers in 08 are the same people talking up Orton's 09 performance. If Cutler failed then so did Orton.

Archer81
02-21-2010, 10:37 PM
Cutler had more yards and more TDs than Orton in Denver and Chicago.

Cutler made our offensive line look all time good, Orton made it look in dire need of upgrade, Cutler made Eddie Royal a weapon and with him Michael Pittman and Peyton Hillis had 100 yard rushing games in short stints as starters, with Orton Eddie Royal was a non-factor and Knowshon Moreno couldn't crack 100 yards in a game despite having a whole season.

Cutler lead one of the best red zone offenses last year, this year Orton lead one of the 10 worst - who is choking in the red zone?

Talk about big games, Orton is no better than Cutler, getting ass-raped at home by the Chiefs in a must-win game.

The most redeeming thing about Orton is that he is a lot cheaper, if he loses that quality he has nothing keeping him in Denver and should be gone, if all we need is a warm body to put on the depth chart Tom Brandstater or Daunte Culpepper will do just fine.


In 2009, Orton passed for 3802 yards, 21 tds, 12 ints.
Cutler, 3666 yards, 27 tds, 26 ints.

Did you mean length of time they were in chicago and denver?

Our redzone offense in 2008 was not very good. The fact Cutler led the NFL in RZ turnovers should tell you this. He continued it this season.

Orton is not as physically talented as Cutler is, but Orton will get one more year. Skewing the numbers to make the argument that Orton alone is the reason the entire offense took a step back is a little bit extreme because its not true. It wasnt Orton getting beat up front.

:Broncos:

DBroncos4life
02-21-2010, 10:44 PM
In 2009, Orton passed for 3802 yards, 21 tds, 12 ints.
Cutler, 3666 yards, 27 tds, 26 ints.

Did you mean length of time they were in chicago and denver?

Our redzone offense in 2008 was not very good. The fact Cutler led the NFL in RZ turnovers should tell you this. He continued it this season.

Orton is not as physically talented as Cutler is, but Orton will get one more year. Skewing the numbers to make the argument that Orton alone is the reason the entire offense took a step back is a little bit extreme because its not true. It wasnt Orton getting beat up front.

:Broncos:
2009 red zone offense was worse. That is a fact. What do you blame that on?

watermock
02-21-2010, 10:49 PM
The reason the offense took a step back wasn't because we didn't draft or bring in FA's.

In fact,we brought in 3 RB, yet only drafted 1.

We bought in 3 LB's, yet drafted none.

We drafted 4 secondary, and started....NONE.

We took ou 1st round pick and benched him for a new england castoff 37 year old washed out player that was watching from the tv.


Buy a clue.

watermock
02-21-2010, 10:54 PM
No Denver has no OC, no DC, no RB coach, no GM and a 33 year old coach with his brother as QB coach.

watermock
02-21-2010, 10:58 PM
orton is not as physically talented as cutler is, but orton will get one more year. Skewing the numbers to make the argument that orton alone is the reason the entire offense took a step back is a little bit extreme because its not true. It wasnt orton getting beat up front.



wow

Noone has laid the 2-8 finish on Orton.

ScottXray
02-21-2010, 11:00 PM
I just really sucks knowing how bad the red zone offense was last year only have it get WORSE in 09. We picked up less first downs and our third down pct dropped 10%. Turnovers are the worst but not to far behind is 3 and outs and not picking up first downs period. The Bears problems are something I don't care about. It's awesome if you want to take some kind of moral victory in Cutler struggling but we ****ing failed too. The way I see it in Cutler's career season in 08 we got 8 wins. Orton's career year got us 8 wins. That is NOT what we are looking for. The same people that are blowing off Cutler's numbers in 08 are the same people talking up Orton's 09 performance. If Cutler failed then so did Orton.

True...but we didn't trade two first round picks for Orton and Chicago DID for Cutler. Ther result of that is yet to be seen. And no quarterback does well throwing from the ground on his back, or with people in his face all day.

As far as the red zone and what happened to the O line. In 08 we had ZERO injuries on the line and the starters didn't miss any games at all. In 09 Hamilton turned into a revolving door, and we lost our RT in game 7, Wiegman showed his age and Kuper played hurt. Part of it was the change away from the ZBS but losing 3 of the 5 at times had a large part to why Moreno/Buck kept getting hit BEHIND the line most runs, or why Orton would take the short out so often. The scheme change, along with the injuries, just hi-lighted what a lot of us have been saying for years.....We need to get Bigger up front if we want to get that 3rd and 1 run consistently, or at all, and kep the pocket open. No push from the line and you get what we saw last year....stuffed repeatedly.

No point in getting into play selection...it's been tossed around enough and the reasons decisions were made are only known to the coaches themselves. Hopefully it gets better this year. But if the line doesn't get bigger/better the results will be about the same.

watermock
02-21-2010, 11:05 PM
It wasnt orton getting beat up front.


Wow.Teams just rushed the A and B gap and Clady had noone to block.

Buy a vowel.

watermock
02-21-2010, 11:15 PM
True...but we didn't trade two first round picks for Orton and Chicago DID for Cutler. Ther result of that is yet to be seen. And no quarterback does well throwing from the ground on his back, or with people in his face all day.

Are you talking about Cutler or Orton?

As far as the red zone and what happened to the O line. In 08 we had ZERO injuries on the line and the starters didn't miss any games at all. In 09 Hamilton turned into a revolving door, and we lost our RT in game 7, Wiegman showed his age and Kuper played hurt.

Actually the scheme changed, Hamiton was healthier than 08. Weiggman had a probowl year, and so should of Clady.


Part of it was the change away from the ZBS but losing 3 of the 5 at times had a large part to why Moreno/Buck kept getting hit BEHIND the line most runs, or why Orton would take the short out so often. The scheme change, along with the injuries, just hi-lighted what a lot of us have been saying for years.....We need to get Bigger up front if we want to get that 3rd and 1 run consistently, or at all, and kep the pocket open. No push from the line and you get what we saw last year....stuffed repeatedly.

Dreaming.

No point in getting into play selection...it's been tossed around enough and the reasons decisions were made are only known to the coaches themselves. Hopefully it gets better this year. But if the line doesn't get bigger/better the results will be about the same.

That is unlikely.

DBroncos4life
02-21-2010, 11:17 PM
True...but we didn't trade two first round picks for Orton and Chicago DID for Cutler. Ther result of that is yet to be seen. And no quarterback does well throwing from the ground on his back, or with people in his face all day.

As far as the red zone and what happened to the O line. In 08 we had ZERO injuries on the line and the starters didn't miss any games at all. In 09 Hamilton turned into a revolving door, and we lost our RT in game 7, Wiegman showed his age and Kuper played hurt. Part of it was the change away from the ZBS but losing 3 of the 5 at times had a large part to why Moreno/Buck kept getting hit BEHIND the line most runs, or why Orton would take the short out so often. The scheme change, along with the injuries, just hi-lighted what a lot of us have been saying for years.....We need to get Bigger up front if we want to get that 3rd and 1 run consistently, or at all, and kep the pocket open. No push from the line and you get what we saw last year....stuffed repeatedly.

No point in getting into play selection...it's been tossed around enough and the reasons decisions were made are only known to the coaches themselves. Hopefully it gets better this year. But if the line doesn't get bigger/better the results will be about the same.

Yeah both the 08 and 09 teams suffered injuries so that excuse isn't going to fly with me. Both teams failed period. People have pointed out that the 08 had way more success in the red zone before certain RBs went down. You can sugar coat things or cherry pick the good from the 09 team vs the 08 team and vice versa but at the end of the day the results remained the same.

As for no QB can throw from the ground comment. We are going to have major change on the O-line. To think that the O-line is going to gel with the new system in the new players right away is foolish. It's up to Orton to improve on moving around and throwing on the run. It's going to be a tall order for him this off-season hopefully he puts in the work and really improves on a area he really struggled on most of his career.

watermock
02-21-2010, 11:17 PM
art of it was the change away from the ZBS but losing 3 of the 5

Umm..we lost 8 of 10.

Florida_Bronco
02-21-2010, 11:27 PM
Cutler had more yards and more TDs than Orton in Denver and Chicago. Snore.

Cutler made our offensive line look all time good, Orton made it look in dire need of upgrade No. Hamilton and Wiegmann suffering massive dropoffs made our line look in dire need of an upgrade.

Cutler made Eddie Royal a weapon and with him Michael Pittman and Peyton Hillis had 100 yard rushing games in short stints as starters, with Orton Eddie Royal was a non-factor and Knowshon Moreno couldn't crack 100 yards in a game despite having a whole season. So it's Orton's fault that Royal did nothing with the 37 passes he did catch, or that we had to play Royal out of position because he is the only one with deep speed?

How was Cutler responsible for Pittman and Hillis getting 100 yard rushing games?

Cutler lead one of the best red zone offenses last year, this year Orton lead one of the 10 worst - who is choking in the red zone? You're kidding right? We've had redzone struggles for ages and 2008 was no different.

watermock
02-21-2010, 11:31 PM
So it's Orton's fault that Royal did nothing with the 37 passes he did catch, or that we had to play Royal out of position because he is the only one with deep speed?

How was Cutler responsible for Pittman and Hillis getting 100 yard rushing games?


Quote:


Idiot gets a cookie.

watermock
02-21-2010, 11:34 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=3331&dateline=1247637491

I might have to take that.

strafen
02-21-2010, 11:43 PM
So it's Orton's fault that Royal did nothing with the 37 passes he did catch, or that we had to play Royal out of position because he is the only one with deep speed?

How was Cutler responsible for Pittman and Hillis getting 100 yard rushing games?

With Orton, our vertical game was almosy non-existent.
We were unable to spread defenses.

As for Cutler responsible for Pittman and Hillis getting 100-yards...come on man. Please don't tell me somebody has to explain that to you...
With Cutler opposing defenses actually respected our passing game. That would put less defenders at the line of scrimmage making it easier to block and run the ball.
With Orton and McDaniels' offense, defenses crowd the line to stop the dink and dunk passes since the coverage area is rather small, by doing so, they can also hinder our ability to run the ball effectively...

Florida_Bronco
02-22-2010, 01:12 AM
With Orton, our vertical game was almosy non-existent.
We were unable to spread defenses. Two problems with that.

1) How many deep passes did Royal catch last year? Not that many that I can recall. Most of them were intermediate routes.

2) Bates and Shanahan themselves stated that they were trying to copy the 2007 Patriots offense.

As for Cutler responsible for Pittman and Hillis getting 100-yards...come on man. Please don't tell me somebody has to explain that to you...
With Cutler opposing defenses actually respected our passing game. That would put less defenders at the line of scrimmage making it easier to block and run the ball.

With Orton and McDaniels' offense, defenses crowd the line to stop the dink and dunk passes since the coverage area is rather small, by doing so, they can also hinder our ability to run the ball effectively... Again, we were copying the 2007 Patriots in 2008.

Secondly, if you think NFL coaches believe this nonsense about Orton having a weak arm, you're kidding yourself. There was just a clip the other day that Beantown posted showing Orton throwing a laser to Gaffney that probably traveled 35-40 yards in the arm and across Orton's body.

Also keep in mind that in Pittman's 100 yard game Cutler put forth a very poor performance.

BroncoMan4ever
02-22-2010, 02:11 AM
With Orton, our vertical game was almosy non-existent.
We were unable to spread defenses.

As for Cutler responsible for Pittman and Hillis getting 100-yards...come on man. Please don't tell me somebody has to explain that to you...
With Cutler opposing defenses actually respected our passing game. That would put less defenders at the line of scrimmage making it easier to block and run the ball.
With Orton and McDaniels' offense, defenses crowd the line to stop the dink and dunk passes since the coverage area is rather small, by doing so, they can also hinder our ability to run the ball effectively...

i understand what you are bringing up about defenses crowding the line because of the style of offense we are running, but if you really take a look at the defenses against our offense, a lot of times most weren't bringing bringing extra defenders to crowd the line. A lot of the time it was simply the front 4 that was cutting through the interior of our line like a hot knife through butter

teams weren't really bringing more than was needed and the way our interior line was playing this season, the front 4 on most defenses caused a lot of havoc on Orton and our backs.

Drek
02-22-2010, 04:04 AM
Cutler had more yards and more TDs than Orton in Denver and Chicago.
Great for him. Orton had a better record in Chicago and the same record in Denver. I'm pretty sure thats what really matters.

Cutler made our offensive line look all time good, Orton made it look in dire need of upgrade,
No, a perfect fit offensive system and guys having career years made it look all time good. In '09 we moved to a more man oriented blocking system, watched two of the five starters have father time catch up to them in a big way, and watched our borderline Pro Bowl RT go down just out of our bye and get replaced by a 2nd year UDFA.

And yet people think Cutler scrabbling like a chicken with his head cut off before tossing an ill advised throw off his back foot made the '08 line while Orton's lack of mobility is what killed the '09 one. The Bears OL looked pretty ****ty this year, why didn't Cutler's amazing mobility make them look great? Or at least better than the **** Orton had to work with in '08? Instead they gave up 6 more sacks over the course of the season (a 20% increase). Kinda ruins the whole "mobile QBs reduce sacks" argument.

Cutler made Eddie Royal a weapon and with him Michael Pittman and Peyton Hillis had 100 yard rushing games in short stints as starters, with Orton Eddie Royal was a non-factor and Knowshon Moreno couldn't crack 100 yards in a game despite having a whole season.
Yes, Jay Cutler makes players. Everyone is better thanks to Jay Cutler being around. He's a god,we're all mere mortals. The Broncos might as well just relocate to L.A. because without Cutler why even take the field?

Maybe, just maybe, there was a change in Eddie Royal's role from '08 to '09? Maybe 100 yard games out of Pittman and Hillis are tied to the scheme and personnel uniquely suited for that scheme, and not just the guy who hands them the ball? And maybe Moreno's struggles had something to do with the abysmal interior blocking he received and the MCL injury he was clearly nursing throughout much of the season.

Cutler lead one of the best red zone offenses last year, this year Orton lead one of the 10 worst - who is choking in the red zone?
Funny. While our Red Zone scoring percentage regressed significantly in '09 (from 54.5% to 48.1%) it wasn't as bad as the regression Chicago experienced under Cutler (56% to 47.1%). That is of course treating all non-scoring drives the same, when its pretty obvious that a red zone pick is more damaging. On that front Cutler has had 10 the last two years, Orton has had 2.

If Cutler was the power behind our modest red zone success in '08 then what went wrong in Chicago this past season?

Talk about big games, Orton is no better than Cutler, getting ass-raped at home by the Chiefs in a must-win game.
Orton has actually gotten a team into the playoffs before in his career, FYI. He happened to have his worst game of the season in week 17 but the previous four games he had a QB rating over 90. The last time Cutler was in the hunt for the playoffs was '08 and he ended the year with three straight sub-75 QB rating games.

To go beyond QB rating: Those three games in which Cutler **** the bed were games in which we didn't stray from the same game plan he'd done well in from the start of the season. Orton's horrible game against KC was a massive departure, as Orton was asked to throw the ball 56 times. That is almost twice his seasonal average.

The most redeeming thing about Orton is that he is a lot cheaper, if he loses that quality he has nothing keeping him in Denver and should be gone, if all we need is a warm body to put on the depth chart Tom Brandstater or Daunte Culpepper will do just fine.
I'd say the most redeeming quality is his penchant for not shooting his team in the foot when it matters most. His second is that he actually wants to be a Denver Bronco.

But we can beat this dead horse all day. I'm not one to rehash the past. I just think the notion that we should measure all QBs by how similar their physical skills are to John Elway is one of the stupidest things Broncos fans do. Elway didn't win because of those things, he won because of what was between his ears. Same way Montana won and the same way the new breed of elite QBs (Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning), none of whom pass the Elway standard athletically, win games now.

jhns
02-22-2010, 06:08 AM
Good to hear. There is no need to commit to Orton. He is not very good and still makes tons of rookie mistakes, only he is 6 years in..... It is funny seeing people try to convince themselves that he is suddenly going to get a lot better. Now instead of just not commiting to him, let's bring in his replacement and stop wasting time.

Broncos_OTM
02-22-2010, 06:19 AM
Idiot gets a cookie.

Wonders if Mock ever feels like he is talking to himself?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-22-2010, 06:19 AM
Idiot gets a cookie.

Don't anyone insult Mock, though! He's special!

WolfpackGuy
02-22-2010, 06:23 AM
Sad to say, but Orton is the "best" option for 2010.

Unless he has an unlikely breakout season, he will be gone or a backup after next year.

Rabb
02-22-2010, 07:08 AM
you can always pinpoint the time that Mock gets into the PB

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-22-2010, 07:21 AM
you can always pinpoint the time that Mock gets into the PB

Peanut butter jokes are off limits, McRabb! Mock is special and deserves our undying love and affection no matter how douchetastic he becomes. Just embrace the little cockwallet to appease those who defend him at every turn.

Rabb
02-22-2010, 07:23 AM
Peanut butter jokes are off limits, McRabb! Mock is special and deserves our undying love and affection no matter how douchetastic he becomes. Just embrace the little cockwallet to appease those who defend him at every turn.

I could have meant a lot of things...

Pabst Blue
Pocket Book
Porn Bucket

:wiggle:

Archer81
02-22-2010, 07:55 AM
wow

Noone has laid the 2-8 finish on Orton.


You have. Repeatedly. Because when Jay led the Broncos to a 2nd half collapse in 08, the defense was he can't do it by himself. When the same happens to Orton, he sucks and its all his fault.


:Broncos:

Archer81
02-22-2010, 07:58 AM
Wow.Teams just rushed the A and B gap and Clady had noone to block.

Buy a vowel.


All teams rush the A and B gaps. Thats what defensive linemen and linebackers do. The difference is, our interior offensive line couldnt do anything to stop it. But of course, Orton is the reason for our horrible offensive line play...


:Broncos:

baja
02-22-2010, 08:13 AM
Peanut butter jokes are off limits, McRabb! Mock is special and deserves our undying love and affection no matter how douchetastic he becomes. Just embrace the little cockwallet to appease those who defend him at every turn.

What would you like to see happen to Mock?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-22-2010, 08:20 AM
What would you like to see happen to Mock?

What the hell kind of question is that?

I think Mock should get warned. Maybe be on the same plane as the rest of us. That's all. Not that big of a deal, but come the hell on. He insults whoever he pleases, and then when someone insults him, the Mock Nation Defense Team comes out of the woodwork.

The problem I have with it is that Mock doesn't ever get better. He just keeps doing the same **** over and over again, and as long as people defend him and don't take him to task for what he does and says on this message board, he has no reason to change his actions and become someone who can actually have an intelligent discussion on points every now and again.

Don't worry. I'm not anticipating any changes.

sixtimeseight
02-22-2010, 08:24 AM
Peanut butter jokes are off limits, McRabb! Mock is special and deserves our undying love and affection no matter how douchetastic he becomes. Just embrace the little cockwallet to appease those who defend him at every turn.

Yea seriously. Where is Blueflame, mock's personal defender? I swear to god she has an RSS feed set up to send her a text message any time a post is made with "mock" and "peanut butter" in it. After all, someone has to look after the 60 year old drunken retard, he clearly can't do it himself.

baja
02-22-2010, 08:25 AM
What the hell kind of question is that?

I think Mock should get warned. Maybe be on the same plane as the rest of us. That's all. Not that big of a deal, but come the hell on. He insults whoever he pleases, and then when someone insults him, the Mock Nation Defense Team comes out of the woodwork.

The problem I have with it is that Mock doesn't ever get better. He just keeps doing the same **** over and over again, and as long as people defend him and don't take him to task for what he does and says on this message board, he has no reason to change his actions and become someone who can actually have an intelligent discussion on points every now and again.

Don't worry. I'm not anticipating any changes.

I think insulting him back is a perfectly good idea, I do it all the time.

It's you constant whining about him that annoys me.

Hint; He has 75,000 posts do you really think he is about to change to make you happy?

baja
02-22-2010, 08:27 AM
Oh just saw your last line, so we agree he is not about change so save yourself some grief and except that Mock acting out a little is part of this site. It's not like it's hard to avoid him.

Rabb
02-22-2010, 08:38 AM
yeah I don't think anything should be done with mock, I had him on ignore for a while and he goes on and off the list still...sometimes it is entertaining

Cito Pelon
02-22-2010, 08:39 AM
The bottom line is Orton has to step up his game a bit, and he's gonna get his chance to do so.

Did somebody say above Culpepper is a better option? Good Lord, that doesn't lend one credibility.

Orton catches way too much crap around here. The guy is a pretty effective QB. It's flat out ridiculous the amount of crap he catches around here. Of course, it's from the usual suspects so it has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Archer81
02-22-2010, 08:40 AM
The bottom line is Orton has to step up his game a bit, and he's gonna get his chance to do so.

Did somebody say above Culpepper is a better option? Good Lord, that doesn't lend one credibility.

Orton catches way too much crap around here. The guy is a pretty effective QB. It's flat out ridiculous the amount of crap he catches around here. Of course, it's from the usual suspects so it has to be taken with a grain of salt.


That grain is quickly taking on boulder like properties.

:Broncos:

oubronco
02-22-2010, 08:57 AM
We had it so good with Elway, we were spoiled with a Great Qb and we have been average ever since, wonder why?

strafen
02-22-2010, 09:16 AM
Two problems with that.

1) How many deep passes did Royal catch last year? Not that many that I can recall. Most of them were intermediate routes.

2) Bates and Shanahan themselves stated that they were trying to copy the 2007 Patriots offense.

Again, we were copying the 2007 Patriots in 2008.
Copying the Patriots offense or not, our 2008 offense was way more explosive than our 2009 offense. Fact.

Secondly, if you think NFL coaches believe this nonsense about Orton having a weak arm, you're kidding yourself. There was just a clip the other day that Beantown posted showing Orton throwing a laser to Gaffney that probably traveled 35-40 yards in the arm and across Orton's body.

Also keep in mind that in Pittman's 100 yard game Cutler put forth a very poor performance.
I agree that Orton's arm is not as weak as many people here -including myself- first thought. Still an average arm at best
The fact still remains that McDaniels coached him to play his system based in most part on the short passing game. Then you have to wonder why...
Going into the 2010 season we still need to work on strengthening our running game and our passing game.
To go thru yet another season where Orton is the one you count on to win is suicidal. Anybody can agree that a credible running game will help our passing game. Right now the way I see it, it is about 70% to 30% the impact of our passing game on offense to the running game.
I'm not saying we pass the ball 70% of the time, I'm just saying our passing game impacts our offense that much more...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-22-2010, 09:28 AM
Go into 2010 with Orton and without improving the OL, and I'd agree with you Dragster. It would be tough sledding, to put it mildly.

But if we work on the line, and can give Orton some time, I believe that Orton has shown enough talent to win a lot of games and make this team a contender. But it has to start up front.

Plus, you benefit the run game. It's win-win.

strafen
02-22-2010, 09:54 AM
Go into 2010 with Orton and without improving the OL, and I'd agree with you Dragster. It would be tough sledding, to put it mildly.

But if we work on the line, and can give Orton some time, I believe that Orton has shown enough talent to win a lot of games and make this team a contender. But it has to start up front.

Plus, you benefit the run game. It's win-win.We need to draft a bona-fide center. I know our interior line has its issues, but the cornerstone of the Ol is the center.
We've had some good centers that played here at a high level for a long time; Keith Kartz and Tom Nalen come to mind...

Florida_Bronco
02-22-2010, 09:57 AM
Copying the Patriots offense or not, our 2008 offense was way more explosive than our 2009 offense. Fact. I wouldn't call a whole 3 points more per game as "far more explosive", but that's just me.

I agree that Orton's arm is not as weak as many people here -including myself- first thought. Still an average arm at best
The fact still remains that McDaniels coached him to play his system based in most part on the short passing game. Then you have to wonder why... Orton's arm is above average. He may not have a cannon, but you don't need one in today's NFL.

Going into the 2010 season we still need to work on strengthening our running game and our passing game.
To go thru yet another season where Orton is the one you count on to win is suicidal. Anybody can agree that a credible running game will help our passing game. Right now the way I see it, it is about 70% to 30% the impact of our passing game on offense to the running game.
I'm not saying we pass the ball 70% of the time, I'm just saying our passing game impacts our offense that much more... We're not going to be relying on Orton to win games for us. We're going to build a complete football team around him. All Orton needs to do is distribute the ball and step up his play in crunch time, which more often than not, he does.

The rest of the post I agree with.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-22-2010, 09:59 AM
We need to draft a bona-fide center. I know our interior line has its issues, but the cornerstone of the Ol is the center.
We've had some good centers that played here at a high level for a long time; Keith Kartz and Tom Nalen come to mind...

I do not disagree with you. Which I will mark in my journal thusly:
"2/22/10 - Did not disagree with one of dragster69's takes. Take was actually intelligent and reasonably well thought out."

Getting a good center might be tough, if only because a rookie is unlikely to start, and I'd like someone who already has experience. IMO, this is one of the positions we should be pursuing in FA.

For the record, here are the centers in this year's FA class.

Player Status 2009 Team
Nick Leckey UFA Saints
Kevin Mawae UFA Titans
Chris Morris RFA Raiders
Rudy Niswanger* RFA Chiefs
Dennis Norman UFA Chargers
Lyle Sendlein RFA Cardinals
Chris Spencer* RFA Seahawks
Jason Spitz* RFA Packers
Chris White RFA Texans

(PS: Guys with an asterisk would be UFA if a new CBA is reached before March.)

strafen
02-22-2010, 10:00 AM
I do not disagree with you. Which I will mark in my journal thusly:
"2/22/10 - Did not disagree with one of dragster69's takes. Take was actually intelligent and reasonably well thought out."

Getting a good center might be tough, if only because a rookie is unlikely to start, and I'd like someone who already has experience. IMO, this is one of the positions we should be pursuing in FA.

For the record, here are the centers in this year's FA class.

Player Status 2009 Team
Nick Leckey UFA Saints
Kevin Mawae UFA Titans
Chris Morris RFA Raiders
Rudy Niswanger* RFA Chiefs
Dennis Norman UFA Chargers
Lyle Sendlein RFA Cardinals
Chris Spencer* RFA Seahawks
Jason Spitz* RFA Packers
Chris White RFA TexansI'm just adding to your comment on the OL help...

Beantown Bronco
02-22-2010, 10:01 AM
I wouldn't call a whole 3 points more per game as "far more explosive", but that's just me.


Even less than a 3 pt difference when you factor in the 2009 defense and special teams actually accounted for more points in 2009 than the 2008 defense and special teams did that year.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-22-2010, 10:02 AM
I'm just adding to your comment on the OL help...

I know. It's a big step for you.

:yayaya: :sunshine:

strafen
02-22-2010, 10:11 AM
I wouldn't call a whole 3 points more per game as "far more explosive", but that's just me. 4500 yards is explosive to me. Now, we all know we were able to move the ball, the "3 points" difference is a weak argument that doesn't reflect the ability of an offense to move the ball as the 4500 yards would indicate. The "3 points" difference is just a reflection of our disturbing tendency to turn the ball over inside the red zone. I believe from Cutler's alone we had 11 TO's inside the 20-yard line; that kills scoring drives. I'm pretty sure you were aware of that.

Orton's arm is above average. He may not have a cannon, but you don't need one in today's NFL.

We're not going to be relying on Orton to win games for us. We're going to build a complete football team around him. All Orton needs to do is distribute the ball and step up his play in crunch time, which more often than not, he does.

The rest of the post I agree with.Orton's arm is not near above average. Come on man!
McDaniels seemed to hold him back.
I thought we were building a complete team last year. Wasn't that one of Mcdaniels selling points when he said he wanted a team that would rely on accountability and team effort?
We will see how we can progress in that area come this season

strafen
02-22-2010, 10:14 AM
I know. It's a big step for you.

:yayaya: :sunshine:Ain't it? :D

Rabb
02-22-2010, 10:14 AM
We need to draft a bona-fide center. I know our interior line has its issues, but the cornerstone of the Ol is the center.
We've had some good centers that played here at a high level for a long time; Keith Kartz and Tom Nalen come to mind...

absolutely yes, our interior line needs help overall but it all starts there

we felt the pain BIG time in that area this year, maybe more than any other spot on the field

BroncoMan4ever
02-22-2010, 02:32 PM
We had it so good with Elway, we were spoiled with a Great Qb and we have been average ever since, wonder why?

thank you. someone else finally sees that. 16 years Broncos fans watched absolute greatness on the field. and because of that, most fans can't settle for anything less than greatness.

Orton is a solid QB. he doesn't wow anyone with talent, and isn't going to invoke memories of Elway but he is a solid guy who can lead a team really well if he has some help.

montrose
02-22-2010, 02:39 PM
I like Orton but considering the state of the CBA, I don't see any reason to commit to any of the RFAs beyond this season.