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Arkie
02-18-2010, 12:36 PM
That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their "freedom" … and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it's time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours?

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35460268/ns/us_news-life?GT1=43001

AUSTIN, Texas - A man apparently upset with the Internal Revenue Service set fire to his home, got into a small plane and crashed it Thursday into a multistory office building, authorities said.

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Weird manifesto he wrote, half communist, half anti-government.

no-pseudo-fan
02-18-2010, 12:43 PM
Surprised this doesn't happen more often. The IRS can do things that are pretty messed up. Since this country was formed by people who hated taxes, does that make him a true patriot?

jhns
02-18-2010, 12:45 PM
I will never understand people.

Beantown Bronco
02-18-2010, 12:46 PM
Project Mayhem 2.0

Beantown Bronco
02-18-2010, 12:48 PM
I heard on the light rail the real reason why this guy did this.

Apparently, his wife told him that she gave an "accidental" bj to his daughter's boyfriend who just so happens to work for the IRS.

no-pseudo-fan
02-18-2010, 12:51 PM
I heard on the light rail the real reason why this guy did this.

Apparently, his wife told him that she gave an "accidental" bj to his daughter's boyfriend who just so happens to work for the IRS.

Irwin Robert Smith

no-pseudo-fan
02-18-2010, 12:52 PM
Project Mayhem 2.0

Hello....Have we forgotten the first 2 rules of Project Mayhem?

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 01:00 PM
Surprised this doesn't happen more often. The IRS can do things that are pretty messed up. Since this country was formed by people who hated taxes, does that make him a true patriot?

They didnt hate taxes. They hated taxes and not having any representation for their own interests. It was "No Taxation without Representation" ... not "no taxation"

DomCasual
02-18-2010, 01:08 PM
I hope no soulless IRS people lost their lives. But I hope the fire destroyed their most comfortable office chairs - forcing them to sit on those metal folding chairs. I hope doing so gives them all really bad hemorrhoids.

I had a bad experience with them several years ago. What npf said about them doing things that are pretty messed up is spot on. I hate them from the very pit of my soul. My experience with them left me of the opinion that their employees have a near-evil combination of power and low intelligence.

To make a depressingly-long story short, THEY made a mistake that cost me A LOT of money. Okay, so people make mistakes. No big deal. That's part of life. But their "organization" is so bureaucratic and inept, getting a mistake fixed is darn near impossible. I spent three years fighting them over something that could have been fixed immediately by a private company making a similar mistake. And, in the process, they had the ability to make my life an absolute hell (credit dings, levies on property, etc). When you finally get them to fix their mistake, they act like they have done you a favor.

Seriously, it was a keystone cops routine - assuming the cops had small brains and rotten souls.

atomicbloke
02-18-2010, 01:14 PM
Is this domestic terrorism?

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 01:15 PM
Is this domestic terrorism?

right now it looks like it is

loborugger
02-18-2010, 01:25 PM
Is this domestic terrorism?

Yes... and to make sure it never happens again, we should restrict private access to aircraft.

worm
02-18-2010, 01:33 PM
Yes... and to make sure it never happens again, we should restrict private access to aircraft.

Please tell me you are joking.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 01:34 PM
I hope no soulless IRS people lost their lives. But I hope the fire destroyed their most comfortable office chairs - forcing them to sit on those metal folding chairs. I hope doing so gives them all really bad hemorrhoids.

I had a bad experience with them several years ago. What npf said about them doing things that are pretty messed up is spot on. I hate them from the very pit of my soul. My experience with them left me of the opinion that their employees have a near-evil combination of power and low intelligence.

To make a depressingly-long story short, THEY made a mistake that cost me A LOT of money. Okay, so people make mistakes. No big deal. That's part of life. But their "organization" is so bureaucratic and inept, getting a mistake fixed is darn near impossible. I spent three years fighting them over something that could have been fixed immediately by a private company making a similar mistake. And, in the process, they had the ability to make my life an absolute hell (credit dings, levies on property, etc). When you finally get them to fix their mistake, they act like they have done you a favor.

Seriously, it was a keystone cops routine - assuming the cops had small brains and rotten souls.


If you think private corporations are any better, try fixing a credit report error.

That One Guy
02-18-2010, 01:34 PM
Well... it's kind of terrorism. Is it meant to intimidate the population? Or is it just a random attack out of anger?

It seems terrorism gets thrown around too much.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 01:35 PM
Is this domestic terrorism?

Well, they did scramble a couple of F16s after the fact to patrol the area.

Taco John
02-18-2010, 01:47 PM
If you think private corporations are any better, try fixing a credit report error.

I actually just did. I was suprised at how easy it was. It took about 45 days, but I expected that going into it.

UberBroncoMan
02-18-2010, 01:49 PM
Surprised this doesn't happen more often. The IRS can do things that are pretty messed up. Since this country was formed by people who hated taxes, does that make him a true patriot?

It might happen more often the way taxes are going to go. Meh, don't see the reason to crash planes into buildings though. Just deal with it. Nothing you can really do... we're ants.

baja
02-18-2010, 01:51 PM
Yes... and to make sure it never happens again, we should restrict private access to aircraft.

What is happening in this country in no accident, people that think like you allow, no invite it to happen.

I only hope you are making a joke as others have suggested.

Houshyamama
02-18-2010, 01:53 PM
It might happen more often the way taxes are going to go. Meh, don't see the reason to crash planes into buildings though. Just deal with it. Nothing you can really do... we're ants.

That's the spirit!

Houshyamama
02-18-2010, 01:54 PM
Yes... and to make sure it never happens again, we should restrict private access to aircraft.

I really hope this is sarcastic. I'm 99.9% sure it is... but if it's not, oh boy oh boy.

UberBroncoMan
02-18-2010, 02:09 PM
I really hope this is sarcastic. I'm 99.9% sure it is... but if it's not, oh boy oh boy.

What, you think this is the land of the free or something? It's turning into Minority Report these days.

no-pseudo-fan
02-18-2010, 02:12 PM
It might happen more often the way taxes are going to go. Meh, don't see the reason to crash planes into buildings though. Just deal with it. Nothing you can really do... we're ants.

I don't think it is right. I just know that there are crazy people in this world.

Writing a letter just isn't getting it done.

Rigs11
02-18-2010, 02:12 PM
How long before the right wing nutjobs blame Obama for this?

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 02:23 PM
How long before the right wing nutjobs blame Obama for this?

Some are trying to call him a Tea Partier already.... :notthissh

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 02:29 PM
How long before the right wing nutjobs blame Obama for this?

Cheney wants to know why Obama didn't have air patrols circling Austin.

DomCasual
02-18-2010, 02:34 PM
If you think private corporations are any better, try fixing a credit report error.

Man, it's not even comparable. Off the top of my head:

1) You have options with a credit error. There are paths you can follow to get it worked out. It's not easy, obviously. But you have some checks and balances in place - including, ultimately, government regulatory agencies. And, if the pertinent parties act recklessly and cause you harm, you ultimately have the option of having it litigated. There aren't those options with the IRS - not on a practical level, anyway. They have a whole department in the IRS to defend the taxpayer against the IRS - a victim's advocacy group. It was created because there were SO many people who had impossibly-bad experiences similar to mine. It was a good idea, but it doesn't seem to do much.

2) If a private company's employees made errors like the ones IRS employees made with me, they would be fired, period. I won't go into the whole deal; and, of course, there are always two sides to every story. I'll just say it was an embarrassment. There were times where I had to speak to someone in a specific department, and I would wait on hold for literally a few hours. I learned to avoid showing even a slight bit of frustration; because they would just hang up on me. This didn't involve me swearing, or threatening them, or even raising my voice. They just don't care. They aren't going to get fired, or even reprimanded. So, if you are even a slight bit unpleasant, they will just hang up on you and talk to someone who isn't a slight bit unpleasant. If you want to complain, you can call back and wait on hold another few hours. This went on for three years.

3) Credit problems can ruin your life. But if someone really wants to screw with your credit, there is a fairly onerous process that they have to follow. The IRS doesn't have the same path of resistance in their way, should they want to make your life unpleasant. The best way I can describe it is that in private industry, the rule is ask questions; then shoot. In the IRS, the process is shoot; then ask questions.

Seriously, your comment sounds an awful lot like someone who hasn't ever had to deal with those bastards on a serious basis. You can never appreciate how truly repugnant that organization is until you've been on the business end of their wrath.

I got a notice last week in the mail that I had underpaid a couple hundred dollars on my 2008 tax return. It was a boiler-plate letter that just said if I didn't pay, they would be forced to "levy certain assets." You know what I did? I wrote them a check for the amount due. I didn't care that I didn't know how they justified their claim about my paying too little. I didn't question the fact that I hadn't received any previous notifications of the shortfall. I just paid it. It's just not worth it.

Bronco CB40
02-18-2010, 02:37 PM
I have always secretly wanted somebody to execute a stunt like this against the IRS.

Hopefully the next time somebody does it, they will use a remote control humanless transport filled with explosives and they will do it at night while nobody is working at the IRS buildings.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Man, it's not even comparable. Off the top of my head:

1) You have options with a credit error. There are paths you can follow to get it worked out. It's not easy, obviously. But you have some checks and balances in place - including, ultimately, government regulatory agencies. And, if the pertinent parties act recklessly and cause you harm, you ultimately have the option of having it litigated. There aren't those options with the IRS - not on a practical level, anyway. They have a whole department in the IRS to defend the taxpayer against the IRS - a victim's advocacy group. It was created because there were SO many people who had impossibly-bad experiences similar to mine. It was a good idea, but it doesn't seem to do much.

2) If a private company's employees made errors like the ones IRS employees made with me, they would be fired, period. I won't go into the whole deal; and, of course, there are always two sides to every story. I'll just say it was an embarrassment. There were times where I had to speak to someone in a specific department, and I would wait on hold for literally a few hours. I learned to avoid showing even a slight bit of frustration; because they would just hang up on me. This didn't involve me swearing, or threatening them, or even raising my voice. They just don't care. They aren't going to get fired, or even reprimanded. So, if you are even a slight bit unpleasant, they will just hang up on you and talk to someone who isn't a slight bit unpleasant. If you want to complain, you can call back and wait on hold another few hours. This went on for three years.

3) Credit problems can ruin your life. But if someone really wants to screw with your credit, there is a fairly onerous process that they have to follow. The IRS doesn't have the same path of resistance in their way, should they want to make your life unpleasant. The best way I can describe it is that in private industry, the rule is ask questions; then shoot. In the IRS, the process is shoot; then ask questions.

Seriously, your comment sounds an awful lot like someone who hasn't ever had to deal with those bastards on a serious basis. You can never appreciate how truly repugnant that organization is until you've been on the business end of their wrath.

I got a notice last week in the mail that I had underpaid a couple hundred dollars on my 2008 tax return. It was a boiler-plate letter that just said if I didn't pay, they would be forced to "levy certain assets." You know what I did? I wrote them a check for the amount due. I didn't care that I didn't know how they justified their claim about my paying too little. I didn't question the fact that I hadn't received any previous notifications of the shortfall. I just paid it. It's just not worth it.

I want to dismantle them just based on general constitutional principles.

peacepipe
02-18-2010, 02:54 PM
Can someone tell me what's the differance between al queda & our right-wing extremists/terrorists are? absolutely nothing. Every righty on board were quick to complain about the report homeland security put out on right-wing extremism. Here we are with another example,proving the report to be right on. We already got apologists posting,trying down play/make excuses for it. The IRS being a pain in the ass is no excuse,there is no excuse for what this right-wing nutjob did.

peacepipe
02-18-2010, 02:59 PM
Some are trying to call him a Tea Partier already.... :notthis**** wouldn't surprise me, I'd be willing to bet if they would go through some of the footage that was recorded on teabagger protest that went on last year you see him. Don't kid yourself, noone on the left has spent the past 1-2 yrs bitching as much as the "teabaggers" about taxes.

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 03:02 PM
It wouldn't surprise me, I'd be willing to bet if they would go through some of the footage that was recorded on teabagger protest that went on last year you see him. Don't kid yourself, noone on the left has spent the past 1-2 yrs b****ing as much as the "teabaggers" about taxes.

Except I read his little online manifesto. He's a communist, not a right winger.

brother love
02-18-2010, 03:03 PM
How long before the right wing nutjobs blame Obama for this?.

This is Obama's fault!

Taco John
02-18-2010, 03:09 PM
Except I read his little online manifesto. He's a communist, not a right winger.

I didn't get communism out of his manifesto. What part did you find particularly communistic?

DomCasual
02-18-2010, 03:10 PM
Can someone tell me what's the differance between al queda & our right-wing extremists/terrorists are? absolutely nothing. Every righty on board were quick to complain about the report homeland security put out on right-wing extremism. Here we are with another example,proving the report to be right on. We already got apologists posting,trying down play/make excuses for it. The IRS being a pain in the ass is no excuse,there is no excuse for what this right-wing nutjob did.

Like who?

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 03:17 PM
I didn't get communism out of his manifesto. What part did you find particularly communistic?

You mean besides the Communist Creed at the end of the note?

It rambles a lot - but the anti-corporate, anti-Bush, and blaming politicians for not getting healthcare reform done.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 03:24 PM
I didn't get communism out of his manifesto. What part did you find particularly communistic?

yeah, i didnt either

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 03:27 PM
You mean besides the Communist Creed at the end of the note?

It rambles a lot - but the anti-corporate, anti-Bush, and blaming politicians for not getting healthcare reform done.

So now any corporate and anti-Bush thought is communist? hmmm And I'm a pinko.

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 03:31 PM
So now any corporate and anti-Bush is communist? hmmm

coupled with the anti religion and Communist Creed?

Come on, don't be disingenuous.

He's a wacko and not representative of any normal political party (or even CPUSA), but he is a left wing wacko. There are plenty of right wing wackos too, if that's the cover you're looking for, but don't sit there and try to say that only one side of the political spectrum has a lock on crazies - it's surprisingly fairly equal.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 03:34 PM
coupled with the anti religion and Communist Creed?

Come on, don't be disingenuous.

He's a wacko and not representative of any normal political party (or even CPUSA), but he is a left wing wacko. There are plenty of right wing wackos too, if that's the cover you're looking for, but don't sit there and try to say that only one side of the political spectrum has a lock on crazies - it's surprisingly fairly equal.

Eh, i dont think he's a "left wing wacko" at all. He does have some interesting points, but kind of hits it from all angles. I don't know any "left wing wackos" who are against paying taxes.

ColoradoDarin
02-18-2010, 03:37 PM
Eh, i dont think he's a "left wing wacko" at all. He does have some interesting points, but kind of hits it from all angles. I don't know any "left wing wackos" who are against paying taxes.

Except for the ones in Obama's Cabinet? Hehehehe, couldn't resist. Hilarious!

epicSocialism4tw
02-18-2010, 04:01 PM
If you think private corporations are any better, try fixing a credit report error.

I just fixed a bank error, and it took me all of 30 minutes.

Like Dom Casual alluded to, a bank personnel made the mistake. I was shifted from a branch manager to a corporate manager, and when I presented my case to him, he worked out a solution right there.

Customer service is critical to businesses, its a matter of inefficiency to government beauracracies.

Arkie
02-18-2010, 04:14 PM
Eh, i dont think he's a "left wing wacko" at all. He does have some interesting points, but kind of hits it from all angles. I don't know any "left wing wackos" who are against paying taxes.

It seems like the dead pilot has all the wackos covered. He was against big goverment, big business, big pharm, big religion, unions, Republicans, Democrats, senators, congressmen, governors, the legal system, "moles derailing his campaigns", his own accountant, the American public zombies, and laws in general.

Popps
02-18-2010, 04:19 PM
I just fixed a bank error, and it took me all of 30 minutes.

Like Dom Casual alluded to, a bank personnel made the mistake. I was shifted from a branch manager to a corporate manager, and when I presented my case to him, he worked out a solution right there.

Customer service is critical to businesses, its a matter of inefficiency to government beauracracies.

Yours and Taco's experiences were unusual, imo.

I've had a few dealings over the years that have been horrific. Credit reporting agencies are shills for big financial firms (note the cross-advertising) and only recently has the government finally started to get involved.

In fact, the notion that you and Taco had quicker experiences is likely because enough pressure was finally put on these crooks to conduct their business properly, that they may be running it more efficiently.

DenverBroncosJM
02-18-2010, 04:34 PM
How long before the right wing nutjobs blame Obama for this?


Not to worry no one will blame Obama. Obama would you know actually have to do something ...anything for someone to blame him. He might talk it to death though.

epicSocialism4tw
02-18-2010, 04:35 PM
Yours and Taco's experiences were unusual, imo.

I've had a few dealings over the years that have been horrific. Credit reporting agencies are shills for big financial firms (note the cross-advertising) and only recently has the government finally started to get involved.

In fact, the notion that you and Taco had quicker experiences is likely because enough pressure was finally put on these crooks to conduct their business properly, that they may be running it more efficiently.

Well, my bank is healthy. So healthy that they bought up several other banks that crashed.

While I'll agree that there are no shortage of crooks encysted in these places who are writing and getting passed cocoons of unfair legislation against the consumer interest, there is always the need to ensure the loyalty of customers who can leave their service whenever they want. When I made that clear to the manager, he worked it out quickly.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 04:36 PM
Not to worry no one will blame Obama. Obama would you know actually have to do something ...anything for someone to blame him. He might talk it to death though.

im pretty left wing and have been incredibly critical of Obama, but it actually seems that the current admin has been doin a pretty good job of finding those terrorists leaders. I still think its congresses fault not as much has been done, though if they do pass health care reform, that (and the stimulus) would be two pretty big acheivements.

baja
02-18-2010, 04:41 PM
Eh, i dont think he's a "left wing wacko" at all. He does have some interesting points, but kind of hits it from all angles. I don't know any "left wing wackos" who are against paying taxes.

Maybe he is the great great grandson of Guy Fawkes

errand
02-18-2010, 04:44 PM
They didnt hate taxes. They hated taxes and not having any representation for their own interests. It was "No Taxation without Representation" ... not "no taxation"

So tell us how do you like your taxation with representation?

Rigs11
02-18-2010, 04:48 PM
Not to worry no one will blame Obama. Obama would you know actually have to do something ...anything for someone to blame him. He might talk it to death though.
wager that the right wing nut jobs Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck blame it on him tomorrow?

theAPAOps5
02-18-2010, 04:49 PM
Yes... and to make sure it never happens again, we should restrict private access to aircraft.

Tell me how you are going to that. Who is going to pay for it. How are they going to monitor the THOUSANDS of public airports in the US. What about the thousands of private airports?

I await your answer because it should be interesting.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 04:49 PM
So tell us how do you like your taxation with representation?

I'm pretty appalled at the US government in general at the moment. That said, i'm a believer in government I just think our current one is pretty broken. Empires never last forever

errand
02-18-2010, 04:49 PM
It seems like the dead pilot has all the wackos covered. He was against big goverment, big business, big pharm, big religion, unions, Republicans, Democrats, senators, congressmen, governors, the legal system, "moles derailing his campaigns", his own accountant, the American public zombies, and laws in general.


...another one of those independent nut-jobs. J/K

LonghornBronco
02-18-2010, 04:59 PM
WOW! what a trip. Just saw the aftermath comming home from UT. half the building face is blown off. and the offices on2nd and 3rd floor are gutted by fire. The entire highway 183 is crawling from all the rebber neckers and news trucks from all over the place. What a trip this happened in my neighborhood.

Taco John
02-18-2010, 05:01 PM
Yours and Taco's experiences were unusual, imo.

I've had a few dealings over the years that have been horrific. Credit reporting agencies are shills for big financial firms (note the cross-advertising) and only recently has the government finally started to get involved.

In fact, the notion that you and Taco had quicker experiences is likely because enough pressure was finally put on these crooks to conduct their business properly, that they may be running it more efficiently.


It was simple letter writing and letting the process take its course.

There are only 3 credit reporting agencies (Equifax, Experian, Transunion). If you have stuff on your file that is over 7 years old, write them, they will remove it immediately. You can also challenge every spot on your credit record, whether they are legit or not. Simply send them certified mail asking for an investigation. If they don't verify the accuracy of each item within 30 days, it will be removed from your credit report.

They made it easier by providing online tools for consumers to make these challenges, but sending snail mail increases the chances that the 30 days will lapse before they can even get to your file.

I'm not sure if recent government legislation made this easier or not. If so, that's a case of government acting how it's supposed to act: in defense of the individual. No credit reporting agency should be able to ride rough over the people it is keeping records on.

watermock
02-18-2010, 05:12 PM
The "credit score" is a scam.

Used to be you had a relationship with your bank, that knew your assets.

I've gotten 3 CC offers, 0% for one year, and total bull**** on my assets.

These **********s get money at .75% and loan it out at 21%.

I'm going to stockpile credit and let them sue me. WTF are they going to do, kill me?

I'm only allowed 1500 in assets. I could give a rat's ass.

Even with a 10% default rate, they still make money.

listopencil
02-18-2010, 05:14 PM
Is this domestic terrorism?

Yes it most certainly is.


So was the American Revolutionary War.

watermock
02-18-2010, 05:20 PM
There are only 3 credit reporting agencies (Equifax, Experian, Transunion). If you have stuff on your file that is over 7 years old, write them, they will remove it immediately. You can also challenge every spot on your credit record, whether they are legit or not. Simply send them certified mail asking for an investigation. If they don't verify the accuracy of each item within 30 days, it will be removed from your credit report.


If it's gone to collection, your credit is allready destroyed.

I drew Credit report for thousands, and never let them see them.

Credit councelng or tax counceling is a scam.

Wipe the plate. Once your discharged and show income you get the loan.

Broncoman13
02-18-2010, 05:28 PM
I hope no soulless IRS people lost their lives. But I hope the fire destroyed their most comfortable office chairs - forcing them to sit on those metal folding chairs. I hope doing so gives them all really bad hemorrhoids.

I had a bad experience with them several years ago. What npf said about them doing things that are pretty messed up is spot on. I hate them from the very pit of my soul. My experience with them left me of the opinion that their employees have a near-evil combination of power and low intelligence.

To make a depressingly-long story short, THEY made a mistake that cost me A LOT of money. Okay, so people make mistakes. No big deal. That's part of life. But their "organization" is so bureaucratic and inept, getting a mistake fixed is darn near impossible. I spent three years fighting them over something that could have been fixed immediately by a private company making a similar mistake. And, in the process, they had the ability to make my life an absolute hell (credit dings, levies on property, etc). When you finally get them to fix their mistake, they act like they have done you a favor.

Seriously, it was a keystone cops routine - assuming the cops had small brains and rotten souls.


Damn, sounds like you had a terrible go of it... too many stories out there just like this one. Glad you're doing well now though. ;D

errand
02-18-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm pretty appalled at the US government in general at the moment. That said, i'm a believer in government I just think our current one is pretty broken. Empires never last forever

a poll taken a few years ago stated that 75% of those polled didn't think the government did enough for them.... i wish the government didn't even know i exist.

Can anyone name one government organization or program other than the military that performs well?

TexanBob
02-18-2010, 05:53 PM
WOW! what a trip. Just saw the aftermath comming home from UT. half the building face is blown off. and the offices on2nd and 3rd floor are gutted by fire. The entire highway 183 is crawling from all the rebber neckers and news trucks from all over the place. What a trip this happened in my neighborhood.

Yeah, I live about a mile from the building. My church is just a half-block away from this. I didn't drive by but it sure was surreal watching your own part of town on live national television.

It still doesn't make sense that there was so much damage but so few casualties. God was certainly gracious to those inside.

As for the ideology of this pilot, it's clear he hates Catholicism and the IRS but, in general, I think he feels like a victim of life. He was in one failed business after another and that was either because he was a poor businessman (who may have had an abrassive personality to boot) but rather than blame himself for his failures, he lashes out at whatever's convenient - Bush, the government, the church, etc. I've met those nothing's-ever-my-fault types and typically they just go from one failure to the next and assume that the failures are always about people out to get him rather than looking in the mirror and deciding their life needs to change.

The man couldn't have been that poor if he owned a plane. Wouldn't shock me at all to find out wifey #2 was about to divorce this loser and then Mr. I-suck-at-life Guy was simply trying to prevent another massive jolt to his ego.

I don't think what he did is all that political. I think it was his way of channelling his rage against being such a loser in everything that matters.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 05:55 PM
a poll taken a few years ago stated that 75% of those polled didn't think the government did enough for them.... i wish the government didn't even know i exist.

Can anyone name one government organization or program other than the military that performs well?

Do you not think police, fire dept, road construction etc etc perform well? Id say most seniors are also happy with their medicaid and social security. America might also suffer from the simple fact that 300 million people are hard to take care of. Its much easier for smaller countries to have idealistic governments (take scandanavia for example). that said, we could certainly be doing a better job and theres a happy medium to be had

HILife
02-18-2010, 06:59 PM
Project Mayhem 2.0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/122423_3f85dffb4c.jpg

TotallyScrewed
02-18-2010, 07:16 PM
Yeah, I live about a mile from the building. My church is just a half-block away from this. I didn't drive by but it sure was surreal watching your own part of town on live national television.

It still doesn't make sense that there was so much damage but so few casualties. God was certainly gracious to those inside.

As for the ideology of this pilot, it's clear he hates Catholicism and the IRS but, in general, I think he feels like a victim of life. He was in one failed business after another and that was either because he was a poor businessman (who may have had an abrassive personality to boot) but rather than blame himself for his failures, he lashes out at whatever's convenient - Bush, the government, the church, etc. I've met those nothing's-ever-my-fault types and typically they just go from one failure to the next and assume that the failures are always about people out to get him rather than looking in the mirror and deciding their life needs to change.

The man couldn't have been that poor if he owned a plane. Wouldn't shock me at all to find out wifey #2 was about to divorce this loser and then Mr. I-suck-at-life Guy was simply trying to prevent another massive jolt to his ego.

I don't think what he did is all that political. I think it was his way of channelling his rage against being such a loser in everything that matters.


Umm...Very few private pilots own their own plane. If you have a license, which he did, you can rent planes, which most pilots do, because they're soooo expensive.

He was obviously pushed beyond his limit. His story doesn't sound like the "I'm an ass, but it's everyone else's fault".

I don't know his story at all but your compassion for everyone involved is overwhelming. I'm sure that wives and children everywhere are heartened by your thoughts. Thumbs up!

TotallyScrewed
02-18-2010, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE=SonOfLe-loLang;2754693]Do you not think police, road construction etc etc perform well? Id say most seniors are also happy with their medicaid and social security.

Pfffffth.

loborugger
02-18-2010, 08:41 PM
Please tell me you are joking.

Oh ya, I am. However, NEVER underestimate governments ability to overreact to a tragedy.

WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Besides, think of the reduced carbon footprints.

gunns
02-18-2010, 09:26 PM
Do you not think police, fire dept, road construction etc etc perform well? Id say most seniors are also happy with their medicaid and social security. America might also suffer from the simple fact that 300 million people are hard to take care of. Its much easier for smaller countries to have idealistic governments (take scandanavia for example). that said, we could certainly be doing a better job and theres a happy medium to be had


The only one I came up with was Fire Dept. Police? Oh hell no. Road Construction? Pave a road this year, come back next year, orange cones abound while they repave the same damn road. Can't get it right the first time? Medicaid and social security? That's just hilarious. They are known to conjure up what ever they want and screw you in the ass, laughing while you squirm to prove it wrong but because they are government employees, they are right, no matter what.

And the one thing about Federal Government is that there is no customer service.

Dagmar
02-18-2010, 09:54 PM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/122423_3f85dffb4c.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/s3na4i.jpg

TDmvp
02-18-2010, 10:06 PM
Not to change the subject ... But Fight Club has to be in my list of 10 worst movies of all time ...


Back on topic ... If either side right or left blames the other they are stupid.
Anyone who would torch their own house and fly a plane into a building over being disgruntle is obviously mentally ill ...


From what I'm reading this guy was a douche bag cocktail of the worst of all sorts of views.

DHallblows
02-18-2010, 10:55 PM
Not to change the subject ... But Fight Club has to be in my list of 10 worst movies of all time ...

It's safe to say that you're in the minority in that one...

Tombstone RJ
02-18-2010, 11:05 PM
I will never understand people.

You should start with yourself.

TDmvp
02-18-2010, 11:17 PM
It's safe to say that you're in the minority in that one...

There is just so much in it that I hate ...

From a story line that has been beat to death. Ooooo original , the old us v.s. the man bit ...

To the whole way it tries so hard to be edgy ... Maybe to a 16 to 19 year old guy or something ...


and three people I hate ... Brad Pitt , Meatloaf and MOSTLY Helena Bonham Carter.




I mean come on he tosses fat to himself in one scene . I have never laughed so hard at a movie that was trying to be serious than in Fight Club ...

From Bish boobies , to him "fighting himself". In my opinion it was just stupid.

Trying to describe Fight Club to some will make you look like a moron , as I tried to describe it to someone else who had never seen it the day after watching it. I think that is why the first rule of fight club is never to talk about fight club....

But in my opinion it was just a movie that tried to hard and failed really badly.


and LOL @ T.J. autocensoring the T word for boobs and making it show up as boobies ...

SonOfLe-loLang
02-18-2010, 11:36 PM
The only one I came up with was Fire Dept. Police? Oh hell no. Road Construction? Pave a road this year, come back next year, orange cones abound while they repave the same damn road. Can't get it right the first time? Medicaid and social security? That's just hilarious. They are known to conjure up what ever they want and screw you in the ass, laughing while you squirm to prove it wrong but because they are government employees, they are right, no matter what.

And the one thing about Federal Government is that there is no customer service.

ummmmm

RMT
02-19-2010, 02:49 AM
They didnt hate taxes. They hated taxes and not having any representation for their own interests. It was "No Taxation without Representation" ... not "no taxation"

right now the way our government is being run it appears we have "representation with no representation" if that makes any sense. there should be a LOT of turnover in the next election.

kappys
02-19-2010, 11:53 AM
I got a notice last week in the mail that I had underpaid a couple hundred dollars on my 2008 tax return. It was a boiler-plate letter that just said if I didn't pay, they would be forced to "levy certain assets." You know what I did? I wrote them a check for the amount due. I didn't care that I didn't know how they justified their claim about my paying too little. I didn't question the fact that I hadn't received any previous notifications of the shortfall. I just paid it. It's just not worth it.

You can't beat the government at their game - at best you can break even because it'll cost you so much to fight. You did the right thing.

That said I think the fundamental problem is the tax code itself which is so bewilderingly complex that no one in the IRS or private world really understands it completely. The web of exemptions and taxes to be paid is outrageous. The last simplification plan was what like 2000 pages(my memories a bit shoddY) which were mostly new tax rules. The only real thing it did was to give you an option to just pay x (set at a fairly high rate no deductions) so you could just pay out and not worry about it. you lose money but to be honest I can make more working a few extra shifts than I could trying to be exact about my tax burden and my job is more pleasureable.

Garcia Bronco
02-19-2010, 12:29 PM
Is this domestic terrorism?

yes

theAPAOps5
02-19-2010, 12:41 PM
Oh ya, I am. However, NEVER underestimate governments ability to overreact to a tragedy.

WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Besides, think of the reduced carbon footprints.

Oh man I was hoping you had a plan on how to do that! I thought you were being sarcastic but people actually want what you suggested. But no one can ever say how to do it!

That One Guy
02-19-2010, 12:42 PM
The root word of terrorism is terror. If there's really no mind games at work, it's not really terrorism. His intent wasn't to intimidate the government to not tax anymore. It was just an attack with no goal in mind.

epicSocialism4tw
02-19-2010, 12:55 PM
The root word of terrorism is terror. If there's really no mind games at work, it's not really terrorism. His intent wasn't to intimidate the government to not tax anymore. It was just an attack with no goal in mind.

There was a clear goal: revenge against the IRS.

That One Guy
02-19-2010, 01:13 PM
There was a clear goal: revenge against the IRS.

What was he trying to accomplish? His statement was something like "take my pound of flesh and sleep well tonight"... sounds like he was trying to make a statement, get some publicity, and maybe do something.

epicSocialism4tw
02-19-2010, 01:42 PM
What was he trying to accomplish? His statement was something like "take my pound of flesh and sleep well tonight"... sounds like he was trying to make a statement, get some publicity, and maybe do something.

He's saying that they think they own him, and he's expressing that he still controls whether he lives or dies and that he chose to take some of them with him.

Garcia Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:02 PM
a poll taken a few years ago stated that 75% of those polled didn't think the government did enough for them.... i wish the government didn't even know i exist.

Can anyone name one government organization or program other than the military that performs well?

No they can't. The private sector outperforms any governemnt program

Garcia Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:05 PM
So last year I get a letter from the IRS stating I own capital gains taxes. I could not prove them wrong so I sent them a check. I did not sign the form. So they keep hounding me to sign the form and I refused. It ended with me telling them that they have the money and if I have to sign a form for them to take the money then they aren't entitled to it to begin with. That shut them up. ****ing liars. I took every dime out of the market when that happened, and outside of a 401(k) I'll never mess with the stock market again.

I feel bad for the families of the people that lost their lives but I have no sympathy for anyone that would decided to work for the IRS about anything ever.

worm
02-19-2010, 02:07 PM
Oh ya, I am. However, NEVER underestimate governments ability to overreact to a tragedy.

WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Besides, think of the reduced carbon footprints.

My faith in you has been restored, Lobo.

TexanBob
02-19-2010, 05:06 PM
You can't beat the government at their game - at best you can break even because it'll cost you so much to fight. You did the right thing.

That said I think the fundamental problem is the tax code itself which is so bewilderingly complex that no one in the IRS or private world really understands it completely. The web of exemptions and taxes to be paid is outrageous. The last simplification plan was what like 2000 pages(my memories a bit shoddY) which were mostly new tax rules. The only real thing it did was to give you an option to just pay x (set at a fairly high rate no deductions) so you could just pay out and not worry about it. you lose money but to be honest I can make more working a few extra shifts than I could trying to be exact about my tax burden and my job is more pleasureable.

Here's a simple exercise. Find something in your FedGov tax return booklet that causes you to question what they meant. Then call the IRS Help Line 10 different times and count the number of different answers you get to your question.

Mr.Meanie
02-19-2010, 05:29 PM
Man, it's not even comparable. Off the top of my head:

1) You have options with a credit error. There are paths you can follow to get it worked out. It's not easy, obviously. But you have some checks and balances in place - including, ultimately, government regulatory agencies. And, if the pertinent parties act recklessly and cause you harm, you ultimately have the option of having it litigated. There aren't those options with the IRS - not on a practical level, anyway. They have a whole department in the IRS to defend the taxpayer against the IRS - a victim's advocacy group. It was created because there were SO many people who had impossibly-bad experiences similar to mine. It was a good idea, but it doesn't seem to do much.

2) If a private company's employees made errors like the ones IRS employees made with me, they would be fired, period. I won't go into the whole deal; and, of course, there are always two sides to every story. I'll just say it was an embarrassment. There were times where I had to speak to someone in a specific department, and I would wait on hold for literally a few hours. I learned to avoid showing even a slight bit of frustration; because they would just hang up on me. This didn't involve me swearing, or threatening them, or even raising my voice. They just don't care. They aren't going to get fired, or even reprimanded. So, if you are even a slight bit unpleasant, they will just hang up on you and talk to someone who isn't a slight bit unpleasant. If you want to complain, you can call back and wait on hold another few hours. This went on for three years.

3) Credit problems can ruin your life. But if someone really wants to screw with your credit, there is a fairly onerous process that they have to follow. The IRS doesn't have the same path of resistance in their way, should they want to make your life unpleasant. The best way I can describe it is that in private industry, the rule is ask questions; then shoot. In the IRS, the process is shoot; then ask questions.

Seriously, your comment sounds an awful lot like someone who hasn't ever had to deal with those bastards on a serious basis. You can never appreciate how truly repugnant that organization is until you've been on the business end of their wrath.

I got a notice last week in the mail that I had underpaid a couple hundred dollars on my 2008 tax return. It was a boiler-plate letter that just said if I didn't pay, they would be forced to "levy certain assets." You know what I did? I wrote them a check for the amount due. I didn't care that I didn't know how they justified their claim about my paying too little. I didn't question the fact that I hadn't received any previous notifications of the shortfall. I just paid it. It's just not worth it.

Wow that sounds like a really crappy situation. I feel for you there. I have heard many horror stories like that before.

I've had issues with the IRS in the past, but they have been fairly cordial (and sometimes actually friendly) and we resolved it. I had one case where I ended up owing a good chunk of money to them, and we worked out a payment plan and an eventual settlement. It probably depends on which case worker you get and what kind of day they are having.

loborugger
02-19-2010, 06:28 PM
Oh man I was hoping you had a plan on how to do that! I thought you were being sarcastic but people actually want what you suggested. But no one can ever say how to do it!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100220/ap_on_re_us/us_plane_crash_small_planes

On cue...

No matter what, this incident will be used as a springboard to take more liberty from US citizens.

theAPAOps5
02-19-2010, 06:54 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100220/ap_on_re_us/us_plane_crash_small_planes

On cue...

No matter what, this incident will be used as a springboard to take more liberty from US citizens.

Incidents like this and the kid who crashed his Cessna into that building in Florida always bring this up.

You always hear the chicken littles say that the terrorists are going to figure out they can get to the small planes and go to town. Yet every time the terrorists try something its on a commercial airline. Its because of the size and symbolism that I think they prefer the commercial airlines. Most Americans only travel commercially. Only the rich and elite travel by private jet and the population that own and fly there own plane is minuscule compared to the total population.

The same thing will happen in the end. The fervor of this will last for a few weeks. Congress may do some hearings and then the media will move on to the next incident to hit the headlines.

But if its so easy to get private airplanes then why have there been so few incidents like the one in Austin and Florida. Yes this is alarming but aviation will learn from this just like every incident that occurs.

no-pseudo-fan
02-19-2010, 09:15 PM
They hate us because of our freedom!!!

They hate us because of our freedom!!!

They hate us because of our freedom!!!

Wait what are we talking about?

Tombstone RJ
02-19-2010, 09:54 PM
I'm not gonna judge the guy until I know alot more about him. He could be an absolute flake and a total nut job, or he could have a ligitimate beef with the feds...

Some of the stuff the guy says rings true, but that's on the surface.

Arkie
02-19-2010, 10:15 PM
at the end of his manifesto, he says,
The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

How could he feel so much hatred for the IRS when he believes in the communist creed (a progressive tax on all incomes for the purpose of redistributing the national wealth)

That One Guy
02-20-2010, 09:58 AM
He's saying that they think they own him, and he's expressing that he still controls whether he lives or dies and that he chose to take some of them with him.

Sure, a strike back. But his intent wasn't to make IRS workers fear that if they go to work, they too could die. It wasn't to make the IRS fear that if they don't change, more attacks could come.

Just saying there has to be the mental aspect of terrorism... simple revenge isn't necessarily terrorism no matter how dramatic. It has to be to incite change of some sort. Make people fear something.

Popps
02-20-2010, 11:03 AM
It was simple letter writing and letting the process take its course.

There are only 3 credit reporting agencies (Equifax, Experian, Transunion). .

I've been down the road and back with those ****s more times than I can count. (Multiple misreportings, one fraud, etc.) I'm glad you've recently discovered the process, and even more glad that they appear to be shooting straighter due to government pressure. But, to say I'm well-versed in how credit reporting works is an understatement.

I If they don't verify the accuracy of each item within 30 days, it will be removed from your credit report. .

Correct, in principle... it's supposed to work just like that. Of course, that's the tip of the ice berg in many instances, including the one where a company I never heard of claimed I was delinquent on a cable bill for service I never even had. Or, the one where a company I was in good standing with made a mistake, and their inefficient credit reporting wing continued to report it as a late payment, despite telling me each time I called that they were sorry, and they would re-report it. (That went on for almost a year, and was barely resolved by the time I financed my last home.)

So, I understand how it's supposed to work in principle, but as Rohirrim indicated... that hasn't been the case in the past.


I
I'm not sure if recent government legislation made this easier or not. .

These companies have finally come under fire for their practices, so you can rest assured your recent experience was made easier by citizens (like myself) alerting their congressmen to their practices, etc. Like the big banks, they basically did what they wanted for years. That seems to have changed.

Their ad practices, use of data and accuracy has all come under scrutiny over the past few years. Google it.

If so, that's a case of government acting how it's supposed to act: in defense of the individual. No credit reporting agency should be able to ride rough over the people it is keeping records on.

Correct.

They also shouldn't be able to co-brand with the very companies they purport to be "protecting." A big bank selling me "credit score protection" is the very definition of a conflict of interest.

How can Equifax give someone an honest credit report when the very bank the consumer is applying to loan from... is accepting cash rewards from Equifax.

It's insanity that I can't believe is still allowed to take place.

I'm well over 750, at this point... so this isn't sour grapes. I just don't like crooks.

~Crash~
02-20-2010, 11:46 AM
get rid of IRS . problem solved !

~Crash~
02-20-2010, 11:47 AM
wow that was easy ...next!

TonyR
02-20-2010, 02:37 PM
After a pretty crazy week of debate and travel, I've now been able to read and ponder Mr Stack's "manifesto." It seems to me that there are all sorts of incoherent strands of populist rage within it, right and left, as well, obviously, as personal issues that almost certainly pushed him from simply raging at the TV set to becoming a terrorist. I think the attempt to use him to condemn either political party is unhelpful.

But I want to make a few simple points: this was obviously an act of terrorism. When someone is mad at the government, and when he flies a plane into a federal building, killing two and traumatizing countless others and urges others to do the same, he is a terrorist.

Secondly, it is pernicious to define terrorism by the race or religion of its perpetrators. In the country I grew up in, London and the town where my sister's family now lives, Guildford, endured brutal IRA bombings. These acts of terror were no less terror than Jihadist terror or far right domestic terrorism, such as Timothy McVeigh's. Ordinary people were drinking a beer in a pub or shopping in a department store and blown to bits.

None approached the numbers killed in the mass murder of 9/11 in one incident, but over the years of terror, very large numbers of innocents were killed. What I find deeply alarming is that race is now beginning to define an act of terrorism in America. Fox News described the Fort Hood shootings as an act of terrorism, but did not describe the assassination of Dr George Tiller as an act of terrorism.


Both were politically motivated, and designed to foment terror, and both were influenced by extremist forms of religious teaching. Is terrorism defined by the number of people it kills? Or the race of the perpetrators? Or the religion of the terrorists? The Dish tries hard not to make such distinctions.

Terrorism is terrorism whoever does it. Torture is torture whoever does it. Murder is murder whoever does it. Just as I oppose affirmative action and hate crime laws, which make specious distinction on the basis of race and other characteristics, so I oppose making any distinction on those grounds when describing terrorism. That, I think, is a conservative position. And Fox News is not a conservative news organization. It is, in many ways, a racist and xenophobic one whose double standards are a result of pure prejudice not reason.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/02/joe-stacks-manifesto.html#more

That One Guy
02-20-2010, 09:17 PM
Let's try a dictionary definition...

ter·ror·ism

<SUP></SUP>  <SCRIPT language=javascript>AC_FL_RunContent = 0;</SCRIPT><SCRIPT type=text/javascript>var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "15", "<img src=\"http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif\" border=\"0\" /> (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/\"http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/T01/T0167100\")", "6");interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high");interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t");interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.ask.com%2Fdictstatic%2Fdi ctionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FT01%2FT0167100.mp3&clkLogProxyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.c om%2Fwhatzup.html&t=a&d=d&s=di&c=a&ti=1&ai=51359&l=dir&o=0&sv=00000000&ip=4a828f6e&u=audio"); interfaceflash.addParam('wmode','transparent');int erfaceflash.write();</SCRIPT><OBJECT id=speaker codeBase="codebase=" classid=clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000 width=17 align=middle height=15 http: fpdownload.macromedia.com pub shockwave cabs flash swflash.cab#version='6,0,0,0"'>
























</OBJECT><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> /ˈtɛrhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˌrɪzhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəm/ http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled[ter-uh-riz-uhhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngm] http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

or Websters...


Main Entry: ter·ror·ism <INPUT class=au title="Listen to the pronunciation of terrorism" onclick="return au('terror03', 'terrorism');" type=button itxtvisited="1">
Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1795
: the systematic use of terror (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terror) especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist <INPUT class=au title="Listen to the pronunciation of terrorist" onclick="return au('terror04', 'terrorist');" type=button itxtvisited="1"> \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
— ter·ror·is·tic <INPUT class=au title="Listen to the pronunciation of terroristic" onclick="return au('terror05', 'terroristic');" type=button itxtvisited="1"> \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective



It wasn't terrorism.

epicSocialism4tw
02-21-2010, 01:51 AM
After a pretty crazy week of debate and travel, I've now been able to read and ponder Mr Stack's "manifesto." It seems to me that there are all sorts of incoherent strands of populist rage within it, right and left, as well, obviously, as personal issues that almost certainly pushed him from simply raging at the TV set to becoming a terrorist. I think the attempt to use him to condemn either political party is unhelpful.

But I want to make a few simple points: this was obviously an act of terrorism. When someone is mad at the government, and when he flies a plane into a federal building, killing two and traumatizing countless others and urges others to do the same, he is a terrorist.

Secondly, it is pernicious to define terrorism by the race or religion of its perpetrators. In the country I grew up in, London and the town where my sister's family now lives, Guildford, endured brutal IRA bombings. These acts of terror were no less terror than Jihadist terror or far right domestic terrorism, such as Timothy McVeigh's. Ordinary people were drinking a beer in a pub or shopping in a department store and blown to bits.

None approached the numbers killed in the mass murder of 9/11 in one incident, but over the years of terror, very large numbers of innocents were killed. What I find deeply alarming is that race is now beginning to define an act of terrorism in America. Fox News described the Fort Hood shootings as an act of terrorism, but did not describe the assassination of Dr George Tiller as an act of terrorism.


Both were politically motivated, and designed to foment terror, and both were influenced by extremist forms of religious teaching. Is terrorism defined by the number of people it kills? Or the race of the perpetrators? Or the religion of the terrorists? The Dish tries hard not to make such distinctions.

Terrorism is terrorism whoever does it. Torture is torture whoever does it. Murder is murder whoever does it. Just as I oppose affirmative action and hate crime laws, which make specious distinction on the basis of race and other characteristics, so I oppose making any distinction on those grounds when describing terrorism. That, I think, is a conservative position. And Fox News is not a conservative news organization. It is, in many ways, a racist and xenophobic one whose double standards are a result of pure prejudice not reason.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/02/joe-stacks-manifesto.html#more

Yikes.

If I wanted a political agenda rammed down my throat, I'd go over to dailykos or msn.com myself.

Tombstone RJ
02-21-2010, 10:20 AM
After a pretty crazy week of debate and travel, I've now been able to read and ponder Mr Stack's "manifesto." It seems to me that there are all sorts of incoherent strands of populist rage within it, right and left, as well, obviously, as personal issues that almost certainly pushed him from simply raging at the TV set to becoming a terrorist. I think the attempt to use him to condemn either political party is unhelpful.

But I want to make a few simple points: this was obviously an act of terrorism. When someone is mad at the government, and when he flies a plane into a federal building, killing two and traumatizing countless others and urges others to do the same, he is a terrorist.

Secondly, it is pernicious to define terrorism by the race or religion of its perpetrators. In the country I grew up in, London and the town where my sister's family now lives, Guildford, endured brutal IRA bombings. These acts of terror were no less terror than Jihadist terror or far right domestic terrorism, such as Timothy McVeigh's. Ordinary people were drinking a beer in a pub or shopping in a department store and blown to bits.

None approached the numbers killed in the mass murder of 9/11 in one incident, but over the years of terror, very large numbers of innocents were killed. What I find deeply alarming is that race is now beginning to define an act of terrorism in America. Fox News described the Fort Hood shootings as an act of terrorism, but did not describe the assassination of Dr George Tiller as an act of terrorism.


Both were politically motivated, and designed to foment terror, and both were influenced by extremist forms of religious teaching. Is terrorism defined by the number of people it kills? Or the race of the perpetrators? Or the religion of the terrorists? The Dish tries hard not to make such distinctions.

Terrorism is terrorism whoever does it. Torture is torture whoever does it. Murder is murder whoever does it. Just as I oppose affirmative action and hate crime laws, which make specious distinction on the basis of race and other characteristics, so I oppose making any distinction on those grounds when describing terrorism. That, I think, is a conservative position. And Fox News is not a conservative news organization. It is, in many ways, a racist and xenophobic one whose double standards are a result of pure prejudice not reason.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/02/joe-stacks-manifesto.html#more


I can agree with the basic principle of this piece, however, when he starts to hypocritically point out FOX News, he loses much credibility.

Ok, Mr. Sullivan, "murder is murder" so I guess when a woman gets an abortion, she's murdering an unborn child, correct?

TonyR
02-21-2010, 11:23 AM
Yikes.

If I wanted a political agenda rammed down my throat, I'd go over to dailykos or msn.com myself.

Textbook ad hominem. Well done.

atomicbloke
02-21-2010, 11:41 AM
I think we should ban Muslim men from flying.

And ban white men from renting small planes.

Then America will be a much safer place.

baja
02-21-2010, 11:49 AM
I think we should ban Muslim men from flying.

And ban white men from renting small planes.

Then America will be a much safer place.

I think we should make everybody fly naked. The bonus would be really fat people would like fly less and those people that like to squeeze off the killer farts would be exposed.

ColoradoDarin
02-21-2010, 11:50 AM
Textbook ad hominem. Well done.

Dude. It's Andy Sullivan. No one takes him seriously because he's bat**** crazy.

atomicbloke
02-21-2010, 12:07 PM
I think we should make everybody fly naked. The bonus would be really fat people would like fly less and those people that like to squeeze off the killer farts would be exposed.

How would your suggestion have prevented this incident? He would flown in to the building naked with the same consequences.

Really the only way to keep America safe is to prevent Muslim men on commercial aircraft, and white men piloting small planes.

Even if one American life is saved, its a good deal.

Also, white women should not be allowed to become professors. And black men shouldn't be allowed to possess guns.

baja
02-21-2010, 12:14 PM
maybe we should all be naked all the time.

TonyR
02-21-2010, 01:36 PM
It's Andy Sullivan. No one takes him seriously because he's bat**** crazy.

12th ranked blog per Technorati. I guess lots of people like crazy!

http://technorati.com/blogs/top100

baja
02-21-2010, 01:42 PM
This guy also fits the definition of revolutionary patriot

epicSocialism4tw
02-21-2010, 02:54 PM
Textbook ad hominem. Well done.

Youre welcome.

I have some more for you if you keep posting absolute garbage like that. Ha!

~Crash~
02-21-2010, 03:43 PM
I think we should ban Muslim men from flying.

And ban white men from renting small planes.

Then America will be a much safer place.

the only thing you add to this forum is you avatar .

Dagmar
02-21-2010, 03:55 PM
the only thing you add to this forum is you avatar .

I'm pretty sure he was joking.

baja
02-21-2010, 04:00 PM
the only thing you add to this forum is you avatar .


we should all take a color pill that will turn everyone light blue

atomicbloke
02-21-2010, 04:17 PM
the only thing you add to this forum is you avatar .

I try to be patriotic and all I get is personal attacks.

You are obviously an America hating terrorist loving politically correct liberal idiot.

rastaman
02-21-2010, 04:19 PM
I have always secretly wanted somebody to execute a stunt like this against the IRS.

Hopefully the next time somebody does it, they will use a remote control humanless transport filled with explosives and they will do it at night while nobody is working at the IRS buildings.

Were you also hopping the same would happen to AIG, WALL STREET, AND THE OIL BARONS!:spit:

rastaman
02-21-2010, 04:40 PM
Muhammad Stack was a domestic terrorist.

ColoradoDarin
02-21-2010, 06:34 PM
12th ranked blog per Technorati. I guess lots of people like crazy!

http://technorati.com/blogs/top100

He claimed he was writing a one man blog, then had to admit he was lying and that there were a couple of people helping him.

Also, I'd like to get your views on FNC then.....

http://unpopularfront.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/sullivanalert.jpg

Pony Boy
02-21-2010, 07:11 PM
get rid of IRS . problem solved !

Here's another easy one, get rid of the 3000 page healthcare bill, and write a one page bill that gives all Americans the same heath care coverage the senators have. I will even pay the same premium they pay, no questions asked. No options to negoaiate but simple, we get what they get.....

Pony Boy
02-21-2010, 07:21 PM
I think we should make everybody fly naked. The bonus would be really fat people would like fly less and those people that like to squeeze off the killer farts would be exposed.

I think in the future we will all be issued jumpsuits (star trek style) to change into before we board the plane and all luggage will be flown on a seperate flight.

baja
02-21-2010, 07:37 PM
I think in the future we will all be issued jumpsuits (star trek style) to change into before we board the plane and all luggage will be flown on a seperate flight.

I think one day soon there will be a a mechanical arm in a booth on the security check in line at the airport that cavity searchs the random person, there will be two sizes of hands, a regular one and a small one for all the tight asses roaming around out there.

Bronx33
02-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Muhammad Stack was a domestic terrorist.


As usual you're an idiot.