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View Full Version : McDaniels on Orton heading into year two


montrose
02-18-2010, 12:15 AM
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=349&videoID=3750&type=broncosTV&year=&month=

Killericon
02-18-2010, 02:24 AM
Notice how he said "Our Quarterbacks"? Hesitation in speaking specifically about Orton.

Popps
02-18-2010, 02:33 AM
Wow, very interesting to me....

"he can do things to help his overall mobility, putting in work in the weight room..."


I've made this observation a few times this off-season. I really feel like Orton is a guy who could benefit from a rigid training program. Normally, QBs don't go through much of that, but he strikes me as a guy who's got a great mental grasp of the game, but is only marginally athletic. Agility CAN be improved, and I think it's very interesting that McDaniels actually referenced it directly. Not something you usually hear, but something I think is totally on-point.

Other than that, it sounds like he wants to be behind Kyle, but expects him to make big strides this season. I think that's fair. I think Kyle needs to make strides, but I also think the system around him has to work much more effectively. (Blocking, running, etc.)

Sound be interesting. I'm pulling for him. He's an easy guy to root for. That said, I do hope we start developing (or bring in) a legitimate option to compete in the future.

24champ
02-18-2010, 02:46 AM
Wow, very interesting to me....

"he can do things to help his overall mobility, putting in work in the weight room..."


I've made this observation a few times this off-season. I really feel like Orton is a guy who could benefit from a rigid training program. Normally, QBs don't go through much of that, but he strikes me as a guy who's got a great mental grasp of the game, but is only marginally athletic. Agility CAN be improved, and I think it's very interesting that McDaniels actually referenced it directly. Not something you usually hear, but something I think is totally on-point.

Other than that, it sounds like he wants to be behind Kyle, but expects him to make big strides this season. I think that's fair. I think Kyle needs to make strides, but I also think the system around him has to work much more effectively. (Blocking, running, etc.)

Sound be interesting. I'm pulling for him. He's an easy guy to root for. That said, I do hope we start developing (or bring in) a legitimate option to compete in the future.

Yeah, I made that observation as well.

Great to hear Orton will hit the treadmill and do other things to improve his mobility. It would do wonders, along with an improved O-line. It's actually great to hear some positive news about the Broncos.

Florida_Bronco
02-18-2010, 02:57 AM
Wow, very interesting to me....

"he can do things to help his overall mobility, putting in work in the weight room..."


I've made this observation a few times this off-season. I really feel like Orton is a guy who could benefit from a rigid training program. Normally, QBs don't go through much of that, but he strikes me as a guy who's got a great mental grasp of the game, but is only marginally athletic. Agility CAN be improved, and I think it's very interesting that McDaniels actually referenced it directly. Not something you usually hear, but something I think is totally on-point.

Other than that, it sounds like he wants to be behind Kyle, but expects him to make big strides this season. I think that's fair. I think Kyle needs to make strides, but I also think the system around him has to work much more effectively. (Blocking, running, etc.)

Sound be interesting. I'm pulling for him. He's an easy guy to root for. That said, I do hope we start developing (or bring in) a legitimate option to compete in the future.

My thoughts exactly. I'm really excited to see Orton's second year here.

DBroncos4life
02-18-2010, 03:07 AM
The ankle is troublesome. Just like in 08 Orton started off strong before the ankle injury. 10 TDs/4 INTs in 08 vs 11 TDs/4 INTs in 09. After the injury in 08 it went to something like 8 TDs/8 INTs in 08 and 10TDs/8 INTs in 09.

As for working out to improve his mobility. Allegedly McD watched a lot of game film on Orton right? Isn't that what he claimed when making the trade with the Bears? He should have learned from watching the film that Orton needed to work on his mobility.

ZONA
02-18-2010, 03:20 AM
I don't care how much Orton works on agility drills, he will never be anything close to mobile. But neither are Manning or Brady. Both those guys couldn't beat your mom in a 40 yard dash. He can train on his legs and that's good but he needs to bulk up that chest and those arms. And most of all, he needs to work on accuracy drills, every frickin single day.

Florida_Bronco
02-18-2010, 03:30 AM
The ankle is troublesome. Just like in 08 Orton started off strong before the ankle injury. 10 TDs/4 INTs in 08 vs 11 TDs/4 INTs in 09. After the injury in 08 it went to something like 8 TDs/8 INTs in 08 and 10TDs/8 INTs in 09.

As for working out to improve his mobility. Allegedly McD watched a lot of game film on Orton right? Isn't that what he claimed when making the trade with the Bears? He should have learned from watching the film that Orton needed to work on his mobility.

I would imagine that most of the offseason was spent trying to get Orton up to speed in the offense as soon as possible. Now that he's basically got a good grasp on it expect them to take more time refining things like his mobility, accuracy and mechanics.

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2010, 03:53 AM
Wow, very interesting to me....

"he can do things to help his overall mobility, putting in work in the weight room..."


I've made this observation a few times this off-season. I really feel like Orton is a guy who could benefit from a rigid training program. Normally, QBs don't go through much of that, but he strikes me as a guy who's got a great mental grasp of the game, but is only marginally athletic. Agility CAN be improved, and I think it's very interesting that McDaniels actually referenced it directly. Not something you usually hear, but something I think is totally on-point.

Other than that, it sounds like he wants to be behind Kyle, but expects him to make big strides this season. I think that's fair. I think Kyle needs to make strides, but I also think the system around him has to work much more effectively. (Blocking, running, etc.)

Sound be interesting. I'm pulling for him. He's an easy guy to root for. That said, I do hope we start developing (or bring in) a legitimate option to compete in the future.

Orton right now reminds me of Brady during his first few seasons in the league. back in his 1st few seasons they were very similar. skinny, not great on deep throws, not very mobile or agile, but a good leader and teammate, and kind of guy you root for. Brady put in the work in the weight room and built up his core and now can throw a good deep ball has ok mobility in the pocket and has really improved his overall game.

i truly think if Orton puts in the work he can be seen as a franchise QB in this league. now because I say there are similarities I am not saying I believe Orton is going to come out next season and throw 50 TDs and win 3 super bowls in the next few years, but I think he is going to come out and earn a long term deal in Denver.

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2010, 03:57 AM
I would imagine that most of the offseason was spent trying to get Orton up to speed in the offense as soon as possible. Now that he's basically got a good grasp on it expect them to take more time refining things like his mobility, accuracy and mechanics.

i agree completely. the way i interpret his 09 season. he got word he had been traded, he got on a plane, landed in Denver and McDaniels handed him a playbook and basically said learn this in the next couple weeks before camp starts.

he didn't really get the opportunity to improve his overall ability, just learning is all he did.

but i agree with a full offseason and with McDaniels probably talking to trainers about what they need to do with Orton, and with coaches working on his mechanics, and accuracy, I expect to see a completely different Kyle Orton next season, and different in an awesome way.

The MVPlaya
02-18-2010, 04:25 AM
Mobility, accuracy, and nimbleness are probably what he needs to work on most.

His arm strength definitely isn't going to help him, so he needs to learn how do better at other things.

The one common trait of every top QB is his ability to maneuver in the pocket, or somehow extend plays when needed...and the deep ball. Orton's deep ball accuracy just isn't there.

Take a look at Philip Rivers... his arm strength is arguably on the same level as Orton's. He often floats a lot of passes but he is extremely accurate. He's not the most mobile guy either...

Orton needs to get more comfortable throwing the deep ball, or at least anything over 20+ yards.

We'll see though... there is a point where you're like is it worth waiting for this guy develop or you roll with a new guy that may need to learn the system, etc but he'll be in place as far as the physical aspects of the game.

It's tough to evaluate when QB's (yes even Peyton Manning) take so long to get comfortable with a system and your goal every season is to win. This is also why it's important to have someone on the bench that has that potential...

After this - you have another 21+ ( not including ST's) positions to evaluate and get better at.

This is why you need to have a good coaching staff all around and a good system as a whole.

peacepipe
02-18-2010, 06:27 AM
I could care less what Orton does to improve his mobility,it won't make him a better QB. He has no pocket presence & is not a real threat to throw deep on anyone with any accuracy. Unfortunately, we're stuck with orton until he's replaced. Mobility will always be an issue as long as he is the QB.

WolfpackGuy
02-18-2010, 06:35 AM
Learning not to topple over in a stiff breeze would help.

NYBronco
02-18-2010, 02:33 PM
A good line would help in his mobility issue. Playing with an injury is something I hope he maintains.

Bronco CB40
02-18-2010, 02:46 PM
Did I miss something? Is Orton under contract for 2010?

NFLBRONCO
02-18-2010, 03:12 PM
Wow, very interesting to me....

"he can do things to help his overall mobility, putting in work in the weight room..."


I've made this observation a few times this off-season. I really feel like Orton is a guy who could benefit from a rigid training program. Normally, QBs don't go through much of that, but he strikes me as a guy who's got a great mental grasp of the game, but is only marginally athletic. Agility CAN be improved, and I think it's very interesting that McDaniels actually referenced it directly. Not something you usually hear, but something I think is totally on-point.

Other than that, it sounds like he wants to be behind Kyle, but expects him to make big strides this season. I think that's fair. I think Kyle needs to make strides, but I also think the system around him has to work much more effectively. (Blocking, running, etc.)

Sound be interesting. I'm pulling for him. He's an easy guy to root for. That said, I do hope we start developing (or bring in) a legitimate option to compete in the future.

I think first step in training for Orton is put him in a wind tunnel and let him practice to not fall down if a guy farts on him.

misturanderson
02-18-2010, 06:15 PM
Did I miss something? Is Orton under contract for 2010?

Not yet, but he's a restricted free agent, so it is pretty unlikely that he won't be on our team as at least a backup next year.

broncosteven
02-18-2010, 07:16 PM
I think the weight room would be a good thing for Orton this offseason.

Build his core up and work on some endurance running.

I think Orton is a very accurate passer but his problem is more arm strength. If he builds up his core and legs and then works on some footwork he will get better.

That said I think the biggest thing that would help Orton here in year 2 would be allowing him to play the game.

I think last year mCd came in and preached no mistake football, which is all well and good until you need someone to step up and make a dynamic play like John used to to win or seal a game. When guys are afraid of making a mistake they tend to be predictable and choke.

I think Orton should have earned some freedom from mCd this year and mCd should loosen the iron curtain (get it a Stalin reference! LOL) on playcalling and let him have a couple shots a game.

Every QB has and will throw an ill advised INT during a critical time of a game. Just look at Manrino in the SB but a QB who is afraid to go out and throw it is not going to be better than a dude who chucks 20 redzone INTS if he is scared.

RhymesayersDU
02-18-2010, 07:20 PM
You know who's already mobile? Jay Cutler.



(I'm kidding, so before you begin to flame, this is a joke, considering the other big thread going on right now.)

TotallyScrewed
02-18-2010, 07:27 PM
I'm sorry but is he or his he not a professional athlete? Is he a rookie with incredible talent that has never been pushed? Is he 6-3 175 or what?

He is what he is.

UberBroncoMan
02-18-2010, 07:38 PM
McDaniels is most interested in how far Kyle can cum and how he can respond to being "pushed" for the benefit of the team.

McOrton (http://tindeck.com/listen/eilu)

bpc
02-18-2010, 07:43 PM
Orton should be jumproping 60 minutes a day, like a boxer. Hopefully he doesn't get hurt doing it.

watermock
02-18-2010, 07:45 PM
Orton right now reminds me of Brady during his first few seasons in the league. back in his 1st few seasons they were very similar. skinny, not great on deep throws, not very mobile or agile, but a good leader and teammate, and kind of guy you root for. Brady put in the work in the weight room and built up his core and now can throw a good deep ball has ok mobility in the pocket and has really improved his overall game.

i truly think if Orton puts in the work he can be seen as a franchise QB in this league. now because I say there are similarities I am not saying I believe Orton is going to come out next season and throw 50 TDs and win 3 super bowls in the next few years, but I think he is going to come out and earn a long term deal in Denver.

Chances of that are slim to none.

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Chances of that are slim to none.

short of us drafting Clausen in the 1st. If Orton goes out and kicks ass as our QB, which i fully expect him to do, he will get a long term deal from us.

KipCorrington25
02-18-2010, 07:55 PM
Yeah I'm sure Orton has never lifted weights before or done conditioning.. what a revelation, get him in the weight room and he'll be Tom Brady!!!

watermock
02-18-2010, 08:12 PM
He just needs to absorb the "system".

Drek
02-18-2010, 08:17 PM
I'm sorry but is he or his he not a professional athlete? Is he a rookie with incredible talent that has never been pushed? Is he 6-3 175 or what?

He is what he is.

Tom Brady at about the same age had no deep ball to speak of. A few years later he lead the league in TDs, passing yards, and plays over 20+ yards.

Drew Brees at about the same age was considered a noodle armed QB and just had his shoulder blown apart. He's now an elite passer.

John Elway had the majority of a bicep removed and still had a great deep ball.

Throwing a football is a combination of physical ability and technique. Orton could probably use a good bit of training in both. The physical conditioning is on him, but Chicago hasn't exactly been kicking ass at developing QBs. I'm sure Orton could still use a lot of technique refinements. Hell, McDaniels changed his delivery his very first week here.

BigPlayShay
02-18-2010, 08:17 PM
This should add fuel to the Orton haters fire: 104.3 the fan was saying that he was recently seen skiing at A-Basin.

BlaK-Argentina
02-18-2010, 08:22 PM
I can't believe how much people bash this poor guy. He did a helluva job considering this was everyone's first year in this offense and our line was subpar. AND he was injured.

I guess some of you deserved Jay Cutler.

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2010, 08:22 PM
Yeah I'm sure Orton has never lifted weights before or done conditioning.. what a revelation, get him in the weight room and he'll be Tom Brady!!!

there is a difference between doing what is required to be able to play in the NFL, and getting serious about working out and conditioning yourself to reach your peak.

look at Brady. are you seriously going to tell me that Michigan didn't have gym equipment for him to work out and get himself into good physical condition?

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/tom-brady-shirtless_423x401.jpg

but after a few seasons in the NFL, coaches and trainers began working with him and he increased his training and got himself to his physical peak and became a better QB

http://aslcdn.celebuzz.com/images/2007/09/tom_brady_vman_091807_04-thumb.jpg

once again, not saying weight lifting and endurance and agility training are going to turn Orton into a guy who wins MVP awards, nails supermodels, throws 50 TDs in a season or wins 3 super bowls, but it will dramatically improve his ability and make him a better QB.

he has the heart, intelligence and leadership, now if he could just build up the body, he could really be a top flight QB in this league

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Tom Brady at about the same age had no deep ball to speak of. A few years later he lead the league in TDs, passing yards, and plays over 20+ yards.

Drew Brees at about the same age was considered a noodle armed QB and just had his shoulder blown apart. He's now an elite passer.

John Elway had the majority of a bicep removed and still had a great deep ball.

Throwing a football is a combination of physical ability and technique. Orton could probably use a good bit of training in both. The physical conditioning is on him, but Chicago hasn't exactly been kicking ass at developing QBs. I'm sure Orton could still use a lot of technique refinements. Hell, McDaniels changed his delivery his very first week here.

not only that, but core training will improve his throwing strength. a lot of weaker armed QBs work to strengthen their cores so they can add some torque from their cores to throw a better deep ball. that is what Brady did.

The MVPlaya
02-18-2010, 09:53 PM
Brady throws the ball pretty hard as of today. Even on shorter passes he zips it in with good speed.

In correlation to what BroncosMan4ever said -

Brady uses a lot of his core when he throws the ball, more so than other QBs like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. He cocks back and twists his body to set up for the throw and unwind for the throw. Kind of like a golf swing.

This is also why it looks a bit unnatural when you seen him throw on the run.

Dagmar
02-18-2010, 10:00 PM
there is a difference between doing what is required to be able to play in the NFL, and getting serious about working out and conditioning yourself to reach your peak.

look at Brady. are you seriously going to tell me that Michigan didn't have gym equipment for him to work out and get himself into good physical condition?

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/tom-brady-shirtless_423x401.jpg

but after a few seasons in the NFL, coaches and trainers began working with him and he increased his training and got himself to his physical peak and became a better QB

http://aslcdn.celebuzz.com/images/2007/09/tom_brady_vman_091807_04-thumb.jpg

once again, not saying weight lifting and endurance and agility training are going to turn Orton into a guy who wins MVP awards, nails supermodels, throws 50 TDs in a season or wins 3 super bowls, but it will dramatically improve his ability and make him a better QB.

he has the heart, intelligence and leadership, now if he could just build up the body, he could really be a top flight QB in this league

I cannot wait until Neckbeard is this dreamy!

:-*

Fusionfrontman
02-18-2010, 10:05 PM
I agree. Orton at this stage prob cannot strengthen his arms anymore as most males physically peak between 18-25. However, he can strengthen his core, which for athletes (and people who just want to get stronger and bigger in general) is key for generating strength. Also, strengthening his core can additionally make him less awkward when throwing on the run because he can recruit muscles from his core to stablize him.

The MVPlaya
02-18-2010, 10:10 PM
I agree. Orton at this stage prob cannot strengthen his arms anymore as most males physically peak between 18-25. However, he can strengthen his core, which for athletes (and people who just want to get stronger and bigger in general) is key for generating strength. Also, strengthening his core can additionally make him less awkward when throwing on the run because he can recruit muscles from his core to stablize him.
Throwing on the run is usually easier/more natural for people who get a lot of their power from their arm like Jay Cutler, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway. If you're arm is not that strong it will be a lot tougher/ less natural.

2KBack
02-18-2010, 10:16 PM
I agree. Orton at this stage prob cannot strengthen his arms anymore as most males physically peak between 18-25. However, he can strengthen his core, which for athletes (and people who just want to get stronger and bigger in general) is key for generating strength. Also, strengthening his core can additionally make him less awkward when throwing on the run because he can recruit muscles from his core to stablize him.

Umm, that assumes that he worked his arms to peak strength before age 25. Hell I'm 30 and over the last few years increased my strength signifigantly. your potential to stregthen and repair may peak in your mid-twenties, but that doesn't mean you can't increase strength speed and flexibility into your 30's with the right effort.

Dagmar
02-18-2010, 10:18 PM
He just needs to absorb the "system".

He will have had more than a year to do that when the season starts mock and will be all the better for it. I expect him to be rated hire than the 14th ranked QB he was this year.

TheReverend
02-18-2010, 10:31 PM
there is a difference between doing what is required to be able to play in the NFL, and getting serious about working out and conditioning yourself to reach your peak.

look at Brady. are you seriously going to tell me that Michigan didn't have gym equipment for him to work out and get himself into good physical condition?

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/tom-brady-shirtless_423x401.jpg

but after a few seasons in the NFL, coaches and trainers began working with him and he increased his training and got himself to his physical peak and became a better QB

http://aslcdn.celebuzz.com/images/2007/09/tom_brady_vman_091807_04-thumb.jpg

once again, not saying weight lifting and endurance and agility training are going to turn Orton into a guy who wins MVP awards, nails supermodels, throws 50 TDs in a season or wins 3 super bowls, but it will dramatically improve his ability and make him a better QB.

he has the heart, intelligence and leadership, now if he could just build up the body, he could really be a top flight QB in this league

Did this post really just happen?

The MVPlaya
02-18-2010, 10:38 PM
Did this post really just happen?

Did you really happen? Do you ever post anything that contributes to football discussion?

Tombstone RJ
02-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Orton getting his ass in the weight room is just good common sense. First, building muscle tissue helps prevent injuries, and he's kinda injury prone.

Also, he can improve his ability to throw the ball if he works on his legs. The legs are the foundation upon which the upper body generates power. Strengthen the legs, and this strength solidifys and amplifys accuracy, rythem, timing, footwork and mobility.

If I was Orton I'd concentrate on leg strength first, and then upper body strength in the chest, arms and shoulders, and then do back and stomach strength training.

strafen
02-19-2010, 12:32 AM
There's absolutely nothing that could be done to make Orton into the QB you're dreaming to be.
Nothing.
For starters, he's got no physical abilities. You can not teach that. Either you have it or you don't.
Second, as somebody already mentioned, he's got no pocket presence and I will also add he doesn't improvise. You can't teach that either. He may try, but that's not who he is.
Orton remains a mediocre QB.
For my fellow Broncos fans to be dreaming about our football team led by Orton makes me puke.
No matter what we do in FA acquisition, draft signings, system changes, those things will all be irrelevant if Orton is our QB.
We would need to have a top-3 defense in the NFL just to have a chance...

strafen
02-19-2010, 12:34 AM
Orton getting his ass in the weight room is just good common sense. First, building muscle tissue helps prevent injuries, and he's kinda injury prone.

Also, he can improve his ability to throw the ball if he works on his legs. The legs are the foundation upon which the upper body generates power. Strengthen the legs, and this strength solidifys and amplifys accuracy, rythem, timing, footwork and mobility.

If I was Orton I'd concentrate on leg strength first, and then upper body strength in the chest, arms and shoulders, and then do back and stomach strength training.Seriously, if the guy needs all that work, why even bother?
It is what is is, folks. Believe it!

TheReverend
02-19-2010, 12:45 AM
Did you really happen? Do you ever post anything that contributes to football discussion?

Good one... really...

Now let's see... football season has been over for a couple weeks... a month and a half for the Broncos. Trade deadline hasn't lifted and FA hasn't started and outside of Nolan leaving and Martindale coming in, absolutely nothing has happened with the Broncos.

So I'll leave regurgitating information that was discussed by people like me almost a full year ago about Kyle Orton to you, 120 lbs in high school and never played a down in his life. Or are you going to deny that's true?

TheReverend
02-19-2010, 01:07 AM
I was going to wait until you lied in response to my post to post this, but eh. 120 lbs was actually being generous, lol. Time for me to take a nice little break from here anyways, little douche bag posers like you running too rampant these days, so take care guys. Talk to you soon.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/lolz.jpg

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=9775686

strafen
02-19-2010, 01:15 AM
I was going to wait until you lied in response to my post to post this, but eh. 120 lbs was actually being generous, lol. Time for me to take a nice little break from here anyways, little douche bag posers like you running too rampant these days, so take care guys. Talk to you soon.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/lolz.jpg

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=9775686

Lol!, my Rottweiler weights more than that :rofl:

Bob's your Information Minister
02-19-2010, 01:33 AM
Wow, this is great! Orton will take you to the Super Bowl now!

TheReverend
02-19-2010, 01:35 AM
Lol!, my Rottweiler weights more than that :rofl:

Yes, he's the size of an 11 year old boy for what would've been his senior season. I'd suggest he accumulated his massive wealth of football knowledge from being the water boy... but there's no way he had the strength to carry even a partially filled bottle of water without a lever or pulley or another simple machine system.

So...? ???

I hope you never insult the female members of this board MV"Playa" (:rofl::rofl::rofl:) as not only do they have, by and large, years to decades more experience of watching the actual game, not to mention our beloved Broncos, but infinitely more playing experience from a couple weeks of Powder Puff for the halftime at Homecoming.

The good news is ground-breaking modern technology can predict what you'll look like in 30 years.

http://www.rotodorks.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/hu_071102nfl_johnclayton.jpg

:)

This was a good post to end on for a bit. :thumbsup:

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 03:21 AM
There's absolutely nothing that could be done to make Orton into the QB you're dreaming to be.
Nothing.
For starters, he's got no physical abilities. You can not teach that. Either you have it or you don't.
Second, as somebody already mentioned, he's got no pocket presence and I will also add he doesn't improvise. You can't teach that either. He may try, but that's not who he is.
Orton remains a mediocre QB.
For my fellow Broncos fans to be dreaming about our football team led by Orton makes me puke.
No matter what we do in FA acquisition, draft signings, system changes, those things will all be irrelevant if Orton is our QB.
We would need to have a top-3 defense in the NFL just to have a chance...

i hate reading ignorant posts like these. if the guy had no skill or physical ability as you seem to say every single time you post, he wouldn't have made it to the NFL in the 1st place, and even if by some miracle he had made it, he wouldn't still be around after 6 years.

is his physical ability on the level of guys like Elway or Favre...no, and it never will be, we all know that. But does he have the potential to possibly up his physical ability to someone like Brady or Manning.....yes he does, if he puts in the work to do so.

also, give me a break on the pocket presence bull****. he has had no protection at all for his entire career. I don't care who you are, or how talented you are, if almost every time you drop back to pass there is a defender in your face, you aren''t going to look like you have much pocket presence.

also, statistically the guy you say has no talent and basically say should be waiting tables at some chain restaurant, statistically he was a top 12 QB in the league. top 12 in a season where he had to basically get acquainted with a new team, new coaches, a new scheme and learn an entire playbook in a matter of weeks before camps began and then add to that a busted up finger for at least the 1st month of the season holding him back only to a few weeks later suffer a bad ankle sprain that again hindered him.

if he can stay healthy, on his feet(meaning fix the damn line) up his conditioning and get into better shape, with a full season under his belt in Denver, i'd be willing to wager the guy has a damn good season that gets him a big money deal.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 03:24 AM
Wow, this is great! Orton will take you to the Super Bowl now!

100 bucks says he gets closer than Cassell ever does.

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 03:37 AM
I was going to wait until you lied in response to my post to post this, but eh. 120 lbs was actually being generous, lol. Time for me to take a nice little break from here anyways, little douche bag posers like you running too rampant these days, so take care guys. Talk to you soon.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/lolz.jpg

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=9775686

Wow, that's some major stalking ****, but I got to tell you, that's some fine work. :spit: However, it does tell me that I've pretty much gotten to your head so much that you went THAT deep into researching. To be honest, that's a pretty desperate move by you. :rofl:

That does bring back some good memories - though Hilarious!

With THAT being said - you realize that was almost 4 years ago? I mean you do realize, during that age period is when you grow taller, gain weight, etc right? Saying I've never played a down in my life is a little far fetched too...LOL

THere is no possibility from when I was 16? 17? to change to NOW is there?

I mean that **** was probably so long ago for you, you'll probably get a tumor thinking about what happened in those days.

Seriously though, like I said, you don't contribute anything related to football DURING the season or during the off-season , so it really doesn't matter what time of the year it is. You're here making excuses, but tell me why there are other forum members that are able to consistently post about football year round?

You're known to be irrelevant to football talk here - if you were blocked, just like dragster, no one would be missing any input about football.

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 03:51 AM
Yes, he's the size of an 11 year old boy for what would've been his senior season. I'd suggest he accumulated his massive wealth of football knowledge from being the water boy... but there's no way he had the strength to carry even a partially filled bottle of water without a lever or pulley or another simple machine system.

So...? ???

I hope you never insult the female members of this board MV"Playa" (:rofl::rofl::rofl:) as not only do they have, by and large, years to decades more experience of watching the actual game, not to mention our beloved Broncos, but infinitely more playing experience from a couple weeks of Powder Puff for the halftime at Homecoming.

The good news is ground-breaking modern technology can predict what you'll look like in 30 years.

http://www.rotodorks.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/hu_071102nfl_johnclayton.jpg

:)

This was a good post to end on for a bit. :thumbsup:

lol judging by your pics that you requested to be posted into homo forms, I probably weigh more than you right now, and I probably lift more - but I could be wrong because I have no idea.

You sound like the desperate person who will do anything and everything to say something about me so it'll make you feel better. I mean come on - you just sat there and fed off energy of dragster, quite possibly the dumbest poster on here. I believe he's blocked by the most people too.

But hey, I'll put it all out there. Yeah, at that age I was skinny, small, etc. That's when I really first got into lifting, body building, etc. pretty logical right? I was always into football though, so I learned a lot about it... and yeah I "played a down" Hilarious!

But honestly, are you seriously trying to pick on me because of my weight/size when I was younger? Are you THAT pathetic? I mean if you're in person, if you got the balls, that's cool man... but on the internet?

It's out there I don't mind about all that... lol

If you TRULY want to get started on going back and forth about things outside of football and onto a personal level, I'll be glad. It can be about ANYTHING. I can open up to you since you seem so interested in me. I'll even keep it private within PM's so it won't be an embarrassment for you.

I'm done though, lol I'm not running away from any of that cuz it's obviously true... however that was a long ass time ago and that's all I really have to say.

When I come on here and read what you say, I just laugh at how stupid you are. There are a couple people on here that can/should be blocked, you're one of them. I don't block people in general, but like I said, you're under the category where I wouldn't be missing any football input anyways, which is why I come here.

Oh and about my MVPlaya name - I don't EVER register with this name anywhere anymore. I actually requested for it to be changed a while back but I was denied. THAT'S the truth. That's why I don't really care about anyone going in about my user name - it's dumb to try to pick at it in the first place, just shows desperation because I pissed you off - but I don't think anything of it to begin with.

So there - you can keep making yourself look stupid.

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 06:19 AM
John Elway had the majority of a bicep removed and still had a great deep ball.



He ruptured the tendon.

After it happened, he said it was the loosest his arm had felt in years.

Go figure.

jhns
02-19-2010, 07:17 AM
It will be nice getting a new coach after this next season. If we are lucky, we can get a coach that likes good QBs and realizes the importance of a good QB. It will be good times.

Hardly any teams have won SBs in this league with QBs as bad as Orton. The ones that have had all time great defenses. Those teams also don't compete over any amount of time. Teams that are consitently good have much better QBs than Orton. Just look at the AFCCG and NFCCG. It is pretty obvious how important a top QB is.

Oh well, at least Orton and McDaniels were able to take away Elways shadow. Cutler hurt this fanbases feelings so much that they actually stopped caring about football and winning. What a funny and pathetic site.

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 07:23 AM
It will be nice getting a new coach after this next season. If we are lucky, we can get a coach that likes good QBs and realizes the importance of a good QB. It will be good times.

Hardly any teams have won SBs in this league with QBs as bad as Orton. The ones that have had all time great defenses. Those teams also don't compete over any amount of time. Teams that are consitently good have much better QBs than Orton. Just look at the AFCCG and NFCCG. It is pretty obvious how important a top QB is.

Oh well, at least Orton and McDaniels were able to take away Elways shadow. Cutler hurt this fanbases feelings so much that they actually stopped caring about football and winning. What a funny and pathetic site.

Pretty much spot on. I come here to check if there is really any news about the Broncos. The actual content here is pretty much crap aside from some people who post good stuff from time to time.

Dagmar
02-19-2010, 07:25 AM
So I guess this thread is one of the reasons for

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=89446

stalking people on other forums! Woah.

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:19 AM
i hate reading ignorant posts like these. if the guy had no skill or physical ability as you seem to say every single time you post, he wouldn't have made it to the NFL in the 1st place, and even if by some miracle he had made it, he wouldn't still be around after 6 years.

is his physical ability on the level of guys like Elway or Favre...no, and it never will be, we all know that. But does he have the potential to possibly up his physical ability to someone like Brady or Manning.....yes he does, if he puts in the work to do so.

also, give me a break on the pocket presence bull****. he has had no protection at all for his entire career. I don't care who you are, or how talented you are, if almost every time you drop back to pass there is a defender in your face, you aren''t going to look like you have much pocket presence.

also, statistically the guy you say has no talent and basically say should be waiting tables at some chain restaurant, statistically he was a top 12 QB in the league. top 12 in a season where he had to basically get acquainted with a new team, new coaches, a new scheme and learn an entire playbook in a matter of weeks before camps began and then add to that a busted up finger for at least the 1st month of the season holding him back only to a few weeks later suffer a bad ankle sprain that again hindered him.

if he can stay healthy, on his feet(meaning fix the damn line) up his conditioning and get into better shape, with a full season under his belt in Denver, i'd be willing to wager the guy has a damn good season that gets him a big money deal.Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make me an ignorant.
This is what's wrong with this board!
I'm not getting pissy or anything, just saying...

That said, Orton was a highly regarded QB coming out of college.
He has not shown the qualities you're looking for in a QB.
It's amazing to me that in just one year because of Moreno's failure to run the ball and Orton's inability to improvise and have some sort of pocket presence that it is now the offensive line's fault.
You need a QB that can IMPROVISE and make plays. You can't have a guy like Orton that would require a top-tier NFL defense for him just NOT to lose games for you.
Look, the guy sucks. Come on. This is the Broncos. We know a good QB when we see one. No, I'm not saying we need to wait for the next Elway.., but come on, Orton?!!!
Llet's get somebody in there that can show some fire and inspire confidence.
Orton is not a QB a lot of people see as a SB type QB.
Why stick with him?

Garcia Bronco
02-19-2010, 08:21 AM
Wow, very interesting to me....

"he can do things to help his overall mobility, putting in work in the weight room..."


I've made this observation a few times this off-season. I really feel like Orton is a guy who could benefit from a rigid training program. Normally, QBs don't go through much of that, but he strikes me as a guy who's got a great mental grasp of the game, but is only marginally athletic. Agility CAN be improved, and I think it's very interesting that McDaniels actually referenced it directly. Not something you usually hear, but something I think is totally on-point.

Other than that, it sounds like he wants to be behind Kyle, but expects him to make big strides this season. I think that's fair. I think Kyle needs to make strides, but I also think the system around him has to work much more effectively. (Blocking, running, etc.)

Sound be interesting. I'm pulling for him. He's an easy guy to root for. That said, I do hope we start developing (or bring in) a legitimate option to compete in the future.

This. Popps is right on again

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:23 AM
100 bucks says he gets closer than Cassell ever does.Dude, you can't be this delusional, can you?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 08:29 AM
Dragster, answer me this:

If you draft a QB in this year's draft, do you really expect him to step in and do better than Orton did last year?

Sanchez was the number 6 pick in the draft, and he threw 20 picks. Yes, the Jets won 9 games, but that was largely due to the team around him, which you say is the knock against Orton: that he can't win unless there's a good team around him.

Simply, you stick with Orton in 2010 at LEAST because he gives you the best chance to A) win some games, B) be successful, and C) develop someone behind him.

I cannot imagine that, even if we did use 10 on a QB, that he'd be starting. There are too many issues on this team that have nothing to do with QB.

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:39 AM
Dragster, answer me this:

If you draft a QB in this year's draft, do you really expect him to step in and do better than Orton did last year?

Sanchez was the number 6 pick in the draft, and he threw 20 picks. Yes, the Jets won 9 games, but that was largely due to the team around him, which you say is the knock against Orton: that he can't win unless there's a good team around him.

Simply, you stick with Orton in 2010 at LEAST because he gives you the best chance to A) win some games, B) be successful, and C) develop someone behind him.

I cannot imagine that, even if we did use 10 on a QB, that he'd be starting. There are too many issues on this team that have nothing to do with QB.At this point...
Yes, I would take my chances and throw a new QB in there as a rookie if we were to draft one with our 10 pick.
Yes, I do understant the chances of going anywhere with a rookie QB are slim, but we're falling behind right now and can't afford to keep waiting to develop a new QB.
This team right now doesn't need a major overhaul to be where it needs to be. It just needs some tweaking and a couple of guys here and there.
Orton is not only a guy who lacks physical abilities, he needs work -as pointed by McD- in strength and muscle building. None of that is going to magically give Orton what he's never had; agility, speed, and improvisation.

Why do we insist on sticking with Orton?
In my opinion it will be a waste of time if what we're looking to do is keep Orton, make him a physical specimen he will never be, coach him to be a game manager and not lose game for you, and surround him with a top defense. That's just to be our starting QB.
Doesn't that sound like a major handicapp at the QB position?
Come on, now...

Drunk Monkey
02-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Bottom line we need to get help up front on both sides of the ball. I am not enamored with Orton either but he is not our biggest issue. We need some big uglies on the interior of our lines. I have always believed in starting on the inside and building out. It's not glamorous but it works. Look at Minnesota. A geriatric at QB took them to the NLCS.

DBroncos4life
02-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Dragster, answer me this:

If you draft a QB in this year's draft, do you really expect him to step in and do better than Orton did last year?

Sanchez was the number 6 pick in the draft, and he threw 20 picks. Yes, the Jets won 9 games, but that was largely due to the team around him, which you say is the knock against Orton: that he can't win unless there's a good team around him.

Simply, you stick with Orton in 2010 at LEAST because he gives you the best chance to A) win some games, B) be successful, and C) develop someone behind him.

I cannot imagine that, even if we did use 10 on a QB, that he'd be starting. There are too many issues on this team that have nothing to do with QB.

I don't think many posters are saying draft a QB in the first round and make him the starter. He can sit and learn while Orton does his thing. It doesn't even have to be a first rounder but it should be someone that isn't going to take multiple years to be ready. What happens if Orton comes out and doesn't do well this year and we don't have anyone that can step up and improve the team should there be football in 2011? Orton had a career year last year and we only won 8 games. I'm afraid if he doesn't take that next step and we are not prepared for the future we are in trouble.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 08:46 AM
I don't think many posters are saying draft a QB in the first round and make him the starter. He can sit and learn while Orton does his thing. It doesn't even have to be a first rounder but it should be someone that isn't going to take multiple years to be ready. What happens if Orton comes out and doesn't do well this year and we don't have anyone that can step up and improve the team should there be football in 2011? Orton had a career year last year and we only won 8 games. I'm afraid if he doesn't take that next step and we are not prepared for the future we are in trouble.

I see what you're saying, but above dragster IS clearly saying draft a QB at 10 and hand him the reigns, and let Orton go. He is NOT okay with having Orton stick it out for another season here, which i think is absurd, and is the crux of my argument.

I'm down with drafting a 2nd or 3rd rounder and letting him learn the system behind Orton. I don't think we're ever going to get anything out of Brandstater, and I think we have far bigger issues to address at 10 than QB. Chief among them, strength and size along both lines.

Fix the o-line, you will get better performances from Orton and Moreno. That's at LEAST two positions improved with one move. Get a rookie QB, you don't address the lines, you get worse at QB (short term) and you win fewer games.

This just seems so painfully obvious to me. There are so many problems that do not get addressed by drafting a QB... especially when you consider that you can ruin a QB by starting him too early.

To your point DB4L: I'm worried about the same thing you are. Like I said, I'm up for drafting a QB in the second or third (or even moving back into the first to draft a QB if there's one we're crazy about) and having him sit and learn. We cover our bases. Fix the lines. Draft for depth and future starting potential. Continue to see what Orton offers.

Of course, I can only imagine this place if we moved back in to draft a Claussen.

Between the Orton haters, McD haters, Claussen haters, people who think Orton is the worst QB in the world, people who think Claussen has "a punchable face," people who always think the backup QB is better than the starter, people who root for Brandstater based on one preseason game against 3rd and 4th stringers... the board may very well implode.

Taco, how's that Bill of Rights coming?

jhns
02-19-2010, 08:47 AM
Bottom line we need to get help up front on both sides of the ball. I am not enamored with Orton either but he is not our biggest issue. We need some big uglies on the interior of our lines. I have always believed in starting on the inside and building out. It's not glamorous but it works. Look at Minnesota. A geriatric at QB took them to the NLCS.

I agree we need interior linemen. We have needed them, especially on the d-line(not. Just interior though), for some time. To bad McDaniels thought a bunch of cheap FAs where the way to go. That is in a year we had tons of early picks and tons of money spent in FA. We get a new coach and the same old crap. Let's see if he decides to do something this year finally.

I don't think that is a good reason to not look for a better QB though. Orton is not the answer.

jhns
02-19-2010, 08:50 AM
Dragster, answer me this:

If you draft a QB in this year's draft, do you really expect him to step in and do better than Orton did last year?

Sanchez was the number 6 pick in the draft, and he threw 20 picks. Yes, the Jets won 9 games, but that was largely due to the team around him, which you say is the knock against Orton: that he can't win unless there's a good team around him.

Simply, you stick with Orton in 2010 at LEAST because he gives you the best chance to A) win some games, B) be successful, and C) develop someone behind him.

I cannot imagine that, even if we did use 10 on a QB, that he'd be starting. There are too many issues on this team that have nothing to do with QB.

So you show that a rookie did better and then say it would be bad to have a better team? Sanchez had a top 10 defense and far less talented offense. Orton had a top 10 defense and far more skilled offense around him. Sanchez won more. I would say that is a great example.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 08:54 AM
So you show that a rookie did better and then say it would be bad to have a better team? Sanchez had a top 10 defense and far less talented offense. Orton had a top 10 defense and far more skilled offense around him. Sanchez won more. I would say that is a great example.

Sanchez had a less talented offense? With his top-notch running game and O-line? Really?

interesting take. Strong.

Sanchez won ONE more game with the DPOY (Revis), Thomas Jones leading everyone not named Chris Johnson in rushing in the AFC, and that translates into "doing better" (with 20 picks and one game where he threw SIX) with less talent around him?

Wow.

yerner
02-19-2010, 08:58 AM
Agility training for Orton? What a waste of time. The dude can't throw for ****. How about starting with that.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:00 AM
Agility training for Orton? What a waste of time. The dude can't throw for ****. How about starting with that.

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Good take.

jhns
02-19-2010, 09:04 AM
Sanchez had a less talented offense? With his top-notch running game and O-line? Really?

interesting take. Strong.

Sanchez won ONE more game with the DPOY (Revis), Thomas Jones leading everyone not named Chris Johnson in rushing in the AFC, and that translates into "doing better" (with 20 picks and one game where he threw SIX) with less talent around him?

Wow.

I would say winning more is doing better. I know that is an insane concept. It is one I learned from you though. Do you not remember the Cutler Vs Orton debates? It never mattered that Orton had far superior defenses and better RBs. Now it matters for this debate? You guys need to make up your minds. You just continue to argue against yourselves when you constantly change like this.

Anyways, we had a top 10 defense as well. We didn't have as much skill in the run game, I will give you that. We have far better receivers and TEs though. It is probably why we had a pro bowl QB the year before. This team was set up to pass. To bad McDaniels went to Orton and made our strengths worthless.

strafen
02-19-2010, 09:07 AM
I see what you're saying, but above dragster IS clearly saying draft a QB at 10 and hand him the reigns, and let Orton go. He is NOT okay with having Orton stick it out for another season here, which i think is absurd, and is the crux of my argument.

I just said I would be ok with drafting a QB with out first pick and throwing him in there. What I've gone on record saying is that Brandstater should be given a legit shot to compete. Let's see what we got. Brandstater had more playing experince than Matt Cassel both coming into the NFL.
So, let's find out, or ship him out...

However, we can still find a good QB that may not necessarily be a top-ten guy.
What I'm saying is that Orton doesn't give us a better chance at winning than a rookie or 2nd year QB would.
In fact, it will be more beneficial for us in the long run if we start working with a young QB this season.
We all know we ain't going nowhere with Orton, why bother?
No matter what we do to improve as a team this year, no matter what kind of exercise regime Orton undergoes this year, the bottom line is, with Orton at QB we will always be a dollar short.

Fusionfrontman
02-19-2010, 09:12 AM
Good point about throwing on the run. Did not know that.
It makes sense.
Anyway.. sorry to interrupt internet fighting. Continue

Drek
02-19-2010, 09:15 AM
So you show that a rookie did better and then say it would be bad to have a better team? Sanchez had a top 10 defense and far less talented offense. Orton had a top 10 defense and far more skilled offense around him. Sanchez won more. I would say that is a great example.

Sanchez had the best defense in the NFL last year, the best OL in the NFL last year, and a solid supporting cast of offensive skill players.

Orton had a defense that for the first half of the season was in the top 2 or 3 and then played like a middle of the road defense over the second half, sliding down to 7th overall by the end of the year. He had good skill position players around him but lost his starting RT for the last half of the season and had two of the three interior OLs fall off a cliff.

That while Sanchez was the only person changing offensive schemes with the Jets while everyone on the Broncos changed schemes.

You put Orton on the Jets and they win 11 games, but still get smoked by the Colts in the AFCC.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:19 AM
I just said I would be ok with drafting a QB with out first pick and throwing him in there. What I've gone on record saying is that Brandstater should be given a legit shot to compete. Let's see what we got. Brandstater had more playing experince than Matt Cassel both coming into the NFL.
So, let's find out, or ship him out...

However, we can still find a good QB that may not necessarily be a top-ten guy.
What I'm saying is that Orton doesn't give us a better chance at winning than a rookie or 2nd year QB would.
In fact, it will be more beneficial for us in the long run if we start working with a young QB this season.
We all know we ain't going nowhere with Orton, why bother?
No matter what we do to improve as a team this year, no matter what kind of exercise regime Orton undergoes this year, the bottom line is, with Orton at QB we will always be a dollar short.

I guess we'll have to disagree. Saying that a rookie or second year guy (who, if it's Brandstater, impressed SO MANY PEOPLE that he couldn't elevate to second on the depth chart when Simms was playing like dog **** on legs) would come in and play better than Orton played this year is way short on logic.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:20 AM
sanchez had the best defense in the nfl last year, the best ol in the nfl last year, and a solid supporting cast of offensive skill players.

Orton had a defense that for the first half of the season was in the top 2 or 3 and then played like a middle of the road defense over the second half, sliding down to 7th overall by the end of the year. He had good skill position players around him but lost his starting rt for the last half of the season and had two of the three interior ols fall off a cliff.

That while sanchez was the only person changing offensive schemes with the jets while everyone on the broncos changed schemes.

You put orton on the jets and they win 11 games, but still get smoked by the colts in the afcc.

This.

jhns
02-19-2010, 09:23 AM
You put Orton on the Jets and they win 11 games, but still get smoked by the Colts in the AFCC.

That is the game you want to play? Fine. We put Cutler on this team last year and we win 11 games. You put last years defense with the year before offense and we win 13 games.

Some of those o-linemen fell off because of Orton. I know people here don't get the effect QBs have on pass blocking but it is a big one. The run blocking was going to fail no matter what. Those guys didn't regress. We have always had problems with power blocking. Our short yardage rushing has been horrible for years. They didn't fall off, they played like they always did. Horrible decision to not replace any of them before switching run blocking schemes.

strafen
02-19-2010, 09:23 AM
Good point about throwing on the run. Did not know that.
It makes sense.
Anyway.. sorry to interrupt internet fighting. Continue

Actually, I find this kind of debates good.
It's only internet fighting if you make it one.
The fact that two groups of passionate Broncos fans are talking about the state of the team and where we stand and what needs to be done is always a good thing.
There are those who by virtue of being fan are going to tell you...let's support our team, and no matter who our QB is let's support him because he's part of the team. Fine and dandy. Any suggestion our team should go a different way in regards to a particular player is often considered hate

Then there is the other group that equally passionate is going to tell you...look we love our team, we want our team to win, but as a fan we've noticed the QB position is not quite where we want it to be. Our QB sends chills down my spine when I see him in there.
Why do we have that guy there?

strafen
02-19-2010, 09:25 AM
You put Orton on the Jets and they win 11 games, but still get smoked by the Colts in the AFCC.

Are you serious man?
Orton is not that good of a QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:26 AM
That is the game you want to play? Fine. We put Cutler on this team last year and we win 11 games. You put last years defense with the year before offense and we win 13 games.

Some of those o-linemen fell off because of Orton. I know people here don't get the effect QBs have on pass blocking but it is a big one. The run blocking was going to fail no matter what. Those guys didn't regress. We have always had problems with power blocking. Our short yardage rushing has been horrible for years. They didn't fall off, they played like they always did. Horrible decision to not replace any of them before switching run blocking schemes.

How is that a horrible decision? There is a learning curve. If we'd kept the same scheme, we would have lost a year of teaching. Instead we lost a year of performance. BFD.

With the pieces we have, with additional pieces coming in this year, most of the line will already be up to speed with scheme, making for a better transition in year two.

Either way, we were losing a year of production. Not a horrible decision by any stretch.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:28 AM
Actually, I find this kind of debates good.
It's only internet fighting if you make it one.
The fact that two groups of passionate Broncos fans are talking about the state of the team and where we stand and what needs to be done is always a good thing.
There are those who by virtue of being fan are going to tell you...let's support our team, and no matter who our QB is let's support him because he's part of the team. Fine and dandy. Any suggestion our team should go a different way in regards to a particular player is often considered hate

Then there is the other group that equally passionate is going to tell you...look we love our team, we want our team to win, but as a fan we've noticed the QB position is not quite where we want it to be. Our QB sends chills down my spine when I see him in there.
Why do we have that guy there?

Nice oversimplification. It's far more complicated than that, but I don't think nuance is your strong suit.

I think Orton is a decent QB. Forever? No. For now? Yes. And the reason is because he's better than a rookie would be if thrown into the fire in 2010.

There's all kinds of evidence to support my claim. Rookie QBs who perform well when starting from day one are the exception, not the rule. Not even close.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:30 AM
Are you serious man?
Orton is not that good of a QB.

He had a better year with fewer picks than Sanchez. He would have been behind a top-notch O-line with a top-notch running game, which would have taken even more pressure off of him.

11 wins is a very reasonable prediction, actually. 13 might be a bit much, but 11 is about what I'd expect with Orton on the Jets in 2009.

jhns
02-19-2010, 09:30 AM
How is that a horrible decision? There is a learning curve. If we'd kept the same scheme, we would have lost a year of teaching. Instead we lost a year of performance. BFD.

With the pieces we have, with additional pieces coming in this year, most of the line will already be up to speed with scheme, making for a better transition in year two.

Either way, we were losing a year of production. Not a horrible decision by any stretch.

So we can't be bad for an extra year or so to teach a QB but it is OK that we are bad just to switch schemes before we have the players? I didn't say switching schemes is bad. I said they should have replaced a guy or two before they did. We spent a lot of resources on the team last year. I bet there were some great interior o-linemen in the 2nd-4th rounds last draft. That isn't even mentioning FA.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 09:32 AM
That is the game you want to play? Fine. We put Cutler on this team last year and we win 11 games.

Cutler couldn't win 9 games in 2008 facing a much easier schedule, yet he's somehow going to win 11 games against a tougher 2009 schedule? Good luck with that.

jhns
02-19-2010, 09:36 AM
Cutler couldn't win 9 games in 2008 facing a much easier schedule, yet he's somehow going to win 11 games against a tougher 2009 schedule? Good luck with that.

Top 10 defense vs franchises worst ever defense.... Hmmm. Yup, looks like Sanchez would have been a far better option. Bean agrees with me.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:36 AM
So we can't be bad for an extra year or so to teach a QB but it is OK that we are bad just to switch schemes before we have the players? I didn't say switching schemes is bad. I said they should have replaced a guy or two before they did. We spent a lot of resources on the team last year. I bet there were some great interior o-linemen in the 2nd-4th rounds last draft. That isn't even mentioning FA.

First, you seemed to be saying that we should have waited a year to switch schemes until we got the personnel. That's what I was responding to. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

Second, I'm not sure why you're suddenly talking "can't be bad for an extra year to teach a QB." Did I say that we couldn't? I don't think drafting and starting a QB out of the gate is a good idea. History proves me right.

As for the o-line, did you know that Ben Hamilton would turn into a horrible, horrible liability last year? I didn't. Did you know he'd need to be replaced? I didn't.

Perhaps what Josh needs is a crystal ball that can tell him exactly what will happen in the upcoming season with regard to injuries and performance so that he can plan accordingly with the draft.

jhns
02-19-2010, 09:44 AM
First, you seemed to be saying that we should have waited a year to switch schemes until we got the personnel. That's what I was responding to. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

Second, I'm not sure why you're suddenly talking "can't be bad for an extra year to teach a QB." Did I say that we couldn't? I don't think drafting and starting a QB out of the gate is a good idea. History proves me right.

As for the o-line, did you know that Ben Hamilton would turn into a horrible, horrible liability last year? I didn't. Did you know he'd need to be replaced? I didn't.

Perhaps what Josh needs is a crystal ball that can tell him exactly what will happen in the upcoming season with regard to injuries and performance so that he can plan accordingly with the draft.

If he told me we were switching to power running, I would have known that instant who was going to fall off. I have watched this team the past few years. Just like everyone else that has watched it, I have seen this line struggle with short yardage and red zone rushing. That is because they go to a power blocking scheme in those situations. It has been a problem for years. It isn't something that suddenly happened now. It is something I thought we needed to fix before Shanhan was fired and before Cutler was traded. So yes.

Maybe what McD needs to do is watch some film.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 09:46 AM
Top 10 defense vs franchises worst ever defense.... Hmmm. Yup, looks like Sanchez would have been a far better option. Bean agrees with me.

Cutler would've cost the Broncos at least two of those games in their 6-0 run to open the season with his patented multi-pick games. So, now you have to find 5 wins somewhere else in order to get to 11 wins in 2009 under Cutler.....you know, those games where they gave up 29.8 pts on average. Good luck with that. The "top 10" defense some give the Broncos credit for in 2009 are the same people that give the 2008 offense a "2nd place" ranking. Not surprising.

Sorry, game manager is not Cutler's forte and that's EXACTLY what the team needed in 2009 and was at least partially responsible for that nice defensive ranking. It's amazing how a defensive ranking can shoot up when the defense isn't constantly put in bad positions by their turnover prone QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:49 AM
If he told me we were switching to power running, I would have known that instant who was going to fall off. I have watched this team the past few years. Just like everyone else that has watched it, I have seen this line struggle with short yardage and red zone rushing. That is because they go to a power blocking scheme in those situations. It has been a problem for years. It isn't something that suddenly happened now. It is something I thought we needed to fix before Shanhan was fired and before Cutler was traded. So yes.

Maybe what McD needs to do is watch some film.

What an idea! I bet you watch way more film than he does!

And BS. Nobody saw Hamilton's fall off prior to last season. He got old in a hurry, and it happened after he got injured. The talk prior to last season was the strength of the team being the o-line. That is not the case anymore, and it happened in '09.

The line wasn't addressed because nobody could see this decline coming.

Perhaps you shouldn't try to revise history.

jhns
02-19-2010, 09:52 AM
It's amazing how a defensive ranking can shoot up when the defense isn't constantly put in bad positions by their turnover prone QB.

So now we didn't have a top 10 defense? Wtf? You will throw everyone on this team under the bus to say Orton is good. How sad that is to see. He isn't going to be here long, what will you do then?

As for what I quoted, you really don't know what you are talking about. Cutlers offense had the 32nd ranked starting field position. With a horrible special teams and all those turnovers (6 less than this year with lots more TDs) they made up 16 positions to give the defense the 16th best starting field position. That defense saw the second fewest drives in the league. How does that go with your theory of being put in horrible position all the time?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 09:58 AM
So now we didn't have a top 10 defense? Wtf? You will throw everyone on this team under the bus to say Orton is good. How sad that is to see. He isn't going to be here long, what will you do then?

As for what I quoted, you really don't know what you are talking about. Cutlers offense had the 32nd ranked starting field position. With a horrible special teams and all those turnovers (6 less than this year with lots more TDs) they made up 16 positions to give the defense the 16th best starting field position. That defense saw the second fewest drives in the league. How does that go with your theory of being put in horrible position all the time?

Here we go. When did it suddenly become OM policy to simply mis-state someone's opinion? Good grief.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 10:07 AM
So now we didn't have a top 10 defense? Wtf? You will throw everyone on this team under the bus to say Orton is good. How sad that is to see. He isn't going to be here long, what will you do then?

They gave up on average 29.8 pts per game in the 8 losses in 2009. Good luck explaining to me how Cutler would've turned that around when he couldn't do it the year before.....when he had a better, more healthy OLine.

I'm still waiting on that list of games that would've all of a sudden turned into wins.

jhns
02-19-2010, 10:08 AM
Here we go. When did it suddenly become OM policy to simply mis-state someone's opinion? Good grief.

Sorry, didn't want to quote the long post. The part you bolded was in response to this:

" The "top 10" defense some give the Broncos credit for in 2009 are the same people that give the 2008 offense a "2nd place" ranking. Not surprising"

I would say that is throwing the clear top 10 defense under the bus. How is this mis-stated?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Sorry, didn't want to quote the long post. The part you bolded was in response to this:

" The "top 10" defense some give the Broncos credit for in 2009 are the same people that give the 2008 offense a "2nd place" ranking. Not surprising"

I would say that is throwing the clear top 10 defense under the bus. How is this mis-stated?

I bolded the whole thing for context. This is to what I was referring:
"You will throw everyone on this team under the bus to say Orton is good."

Talk about a mis-statement.

loborugger
02-19-2010, 10:14 AM
You know who's already mobile? Jay Cutler.



(I'm kidding, so before you begin to flame, this is a joke, considering the other big thread going on right now.)

This post and poster DEFINITELY need so moderation. If Taco doesnt ban him by 3 PM eastern today, I am gonna flame him 500 times in the Bill of Rights thread.

jhns
02-19-2010, 10:15 AM
I bolded the whole thing for context. This is to what I was referring:
"You will throw everyone on this team under the bus to say Orton is good."

Talk about a mis-statement.

Oh well I'm sorry. Should I make it accurate?

You will throw half of the team under the bus to defend Orton.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 10:17 AM
Oh well I'm sorry. Should I make it accurate?

You will throw half of the team under the bus to defend Orton.

As usual, you are wrong.

The defense is 1/3 of the team.

jhns
02-19-2010, 10:21 AM
As usual, you are wrong.

The defense is 1/3 of the team.

LOL

Right you are.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 10:30 AM
Oh well I'm sorry. Should I make it accurate?

You will throw half of the team under the bus to defend Orton.

No, I won't. Bean doesn't seem like the type either.

It has nothing to do with defending Orton. I happen to think, honestly, that Orton lost a lot of the help he had early in the season, making it harder for him (or any other quarterback for that matter) to be successful. Doesn't mean I'll "throw half the team under the bus to defend Orton." It means I'll throw half the team under the bus because they deserve to be thrown under the bus.

You're saying the defense was just fine? That 29+ points per game in the second half of the season is acceptable, and that any other QB in the league not named Peyton Manning would have been okay with that?

You'll do anything you can to blame Orton for every problem on this team. (See? See how I over-simplified and mis-stated your opinion? See that? Sucks, don't it?)

jhns
02-19-2010, 11:19 AM
You'll do anything you can to blame Orton for every problem on this team. (See? See how I over-simplified and mis-stated your opinion? See that? Sucks, don't it?)

Bean did it, so he is that type. I was also just meaning you can switch that line with the one you quoted. I wasn't really including you in on it. After this post I will though.

Anyways, no that doesn't suck. It is kind of true. Just like what I said is true. I think Orton is limited and those limitations hurt the o-line and receivers. The horrible offense then wore down the great defense we had going. Look at the game they started playing bad in. We had one drive that wasn't a 3 and out in the first half of our first loss. I do think the team has other problems but I think Orton and the offense were the biggest. The run game was just as bad as Orton. That offense drug this team down.

I could easily see where you get that.

HAT
02-19-2010, 11:56 AM
Top 10 defense vs franchises worst ever defense....

This is a terrible argument to make if you're somehow trying to say Cutler wins more games for the 2009 Broncos than Orton does.

In the eight games that Denver lost......

Opponents scored....
30,28,27,32,28,20,30,44

That's an AVERAGE of 29.9 PPG.

jhns
02-19-2010, 12:13 PM
This is a terrible argument to make if you're somehow trying to say Cutler wins more games for the 2009 Broncos than Orton does.

In the eight games that Denver lost......

Opponents scored....
30,28,27,32,28,20,30,44

That's an AVERAGE of 29.9 PPG.

I am not really trying to argue Cutler. I was being a smart ass to someone playing the "if" game. Cutler arguments have gotten old.

Anyways, look at what the offense did when the defense wore down. They did nothing. Look at that first loss. Like one drive that wasn't a 3 and out in the first half. I agree, the defense wasn't the greatest ever and wasn't going to keep shutting people down with no help from the rest of the team. What they would have done with Cutler can be saved for another day.

Edit: Just to highlight my point, here are the number of plays each of our offensive drives went for in that first half of the Baltimore game: 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, and 10. None of those drives resulted in points. Our drives in the second half of our next loss were as follows: 4, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4. Pitt scored 21 points while we had these drives that included turnovers.

I get you guys want to believe Orton and the offense had nothing to do with the defensive collapse. I just don't see how you can claim defenses don't get worn down and beat up trying to make up for no team help.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 12:31 PM
I am not really trying to argue Cutler. I was being a smart ass to someone playing the "if" game. Cutler arguments have gotten old.

In other words...."damn, someone called me on it".

Anyways, look at what the offense did when the defense wore down. They did nothing. Look at that first loss. Like one drive that wasn't a 3 and out in the first half. I agree, the defense wasn't the greatest ever and wasn't going to keep shutting people down with no help from the rest of the team. What they would have done with Cutler can be saved for another day.

Keep hanging your hat on that Baltimore game. Everyone in the entire world acknowledges that that game was a poor one for the Broncos offense. That has never been argued. But to somehow say that the defense wore down in the entire second half of the season because of that one game is insanity.

Further, here are some other reasons you can't play the "defense wore down because of the offense" card:

1. They won the time of possession and ran more plays than the opposition in more games this season than not. The defense should not have worn down in all those games.

2. In several of those losses, they played better defense in the 2nd half than the 1st half.

jhns
02-19-2010, 12:36 PM
In other words...."damn, someone called me on it".



Keep hanging your hat on that Baltimore game. Everyone in the entire world acknowledges that that game was a poor one for the Broncos offense. That has never been argued. But to somehow say that the defense wore down in the entire second half of the season because of that one game is insanity.

Further, here are some other reasons you can't play the "defense wore down because of the offense" card:

1. They won the time of possession and ran more plays than the opposition in more games this season than not. The defense should not have worn down in all those games.

2. In several of those losses, they played better defense in the 2nd half than the 1st half.

It was a lot more than the Baltimore game. I just edited that post and broke down the Steelers game as well. Do I need to do it for the entire season?

I am also not trying to argue that we had the greatest ever defense. Even a lot of the great defenses had some bad games. I am claiming they were top 10 and deserve to be called top 10. I am saying all of the points given up in all of the losses are not all on the defense. I give them somewhat of a pass when they get no help from the team.

As for the Cutler thing. I will argue we would have won more. Are you sure you want to start that?

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 12:45 PM
It was a lot more than the Baltimore game. I just edited that post and broke down the Steelers game as well. Do I need to do it for the entire season?

Whatever makes you happy.

I am also not trying to argue that we had the greatest ever defense. Even a lot of the great defenses had some bad games. I am claiming they were top 10 and deserve to be called top 10.

I wouldn't argue that. What I was attempting to do in my comment above re: calling them "top 10" was pointing out that they weren't truly playing like a top 10 defense all year. While it is true that the final stats at the end of the season show that they were a top 10 defense when all was said and done, I think it's pretty clear that over the course of the last 10 or so games of the season, they were NOT consistently playing like a top 10 defense for more than two quarters or so per game. The ridiculously good level they played at for much of the first six weeks "tainted" the final ranking in their favor. That was my point.

As for the Cutler thing. I will argue we would have won more. Are you sure you want to start that?

It's already been started and finished, but if you really want to try to prove that a guy who threw 0 TDs and 5 picks in a 10-6 loss to the freaking 49ers could somehow win more games this year than last year, if he stayed in Denver with a worse supporting cast around him and a tougher schedule, then have at it. This should be fun.

jhns
02-19-2010, 12:52 PM
It's already been started and finished, but if you really want to try to prove that a guy who threw 0 TDs and 5 picks in a 10-6 loss to the freaking 49ers could somehow win more games this year than last year, if he stayed in Denver with a worse supporting cast around him and a tougher schedule, then have at it. This should be fun.

I think you are confused. They played like one of the greatest ever defenses for the first 6 weeks. They played like a top 10 defense for the season. It wasn't just a top 10 defense the first few weeks and dropped off to a crap one. Again, it is pretty easy to show that the weeks we gave up a lot of points, there was 0 team help. This is a crazy idea but the offense and special teams do have an effect on the defense.

As for Cutler having a better supporting cast either this year on the Bears, or the season before on this team, than what Orton had this year.... LOL You really want to get into a Cutler debate, don't you? Rediculous statements are a good way of baiting people into them.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 12:53 PM
Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make me an ignorant.
This is what's wrong with this board!
I'm not getting pissy or anything, just saying...

That said, Orton was a highly regarded QB coming out of college.
He has not shown the qualities you're looking for in a QB.
It's amazing to me that in just one year because of Moreno's failure to run the ball and Orton's inability to improvise and have some sort of pocket presence that it is now the offensive line's fault.
You need a QB that can IMPROVISE and make plays. You can't have a guy like Orton that would require a top-tier NFL defense for him just NOT to lose games for you.
Look, the guy sucks. Come on. This is the Broncos. We know a good QB when we see one. No, I'm not saying we need to wait for the next Elway.., but come on, Orton?!!!
Llet's get somebody in there that can show some fire and inspire confidence.
Orton is not a QB a lot of people see as a SB type QB.
Why stick with him?

to preface this. i never said YOU were ignorant. I said your post was ignorant. big difference. I don't know you personally or even care enough to know you to make the judgement on whether or not you actually are or are not ignorant.

and the reason i said your post is ignorant is because you quantify Orton as some sort of guy who not only has no right to be in the NFL but should be bagging groceries in wal mart.

and don't give me that we know good QB stuff because we had Elway. to a major degree Broncos fans idea on what a good QB are way off base because Elway was so incredibly great, that we can't except anything less than greatness at the position. like it or not, Plummer when he played here, was a good QB, he got the job done. Orton last season, was the 2nd best QB this team has had since Elway retired.

a good QB doesn't need to have the howitzer for an arm, or the mobility of a great RB.


Orton was a highly regarded player coming out of college which is true, but when he came out, it was also said he would need to be put into a certain type of offensive system to be successful. it wasn't the right system for him in Chicago and he still averaged 10 wins a season.

and seriously, did you not watch the games to see just how awful our line played this season? Clady was our best lineman and technically he was nowhere near the level of play he was at his rookie year. injuries decimated the right side, and Polumbus wasn't a suitable replacement. add in the swinging gate that was Hamilton and Weigman or Hochstein and Weigman and this line was terrible.

all i read is he has no pocket presence. that is so stupid. his pocket presence is fine, he just needs protection. every QB in the league gets a little antsy when they have defenders in the backfield almost immediately after the ball is snapped

also, the he needs a top 3 defense to compete is bull****. in his time in Chicago when he averaged 10 wins a season; outside of his rookie year when they were ranked top 10 the rest of his time there, the defenses he had were ranked in the 20s.

he doesn't need a world class defense to be successful. he just needs some protection to be able to have the necessary time to find his open man and not have to deal with defenders immediately. keep him on his feet and uninjured and he is a top 10 QB in the league

also, give me a break about Moreno. so many talk about him like he is some kind of bust. 1st off the line sucked at opening lanes for him to run through and that definitely adversely affected his ability to pick up good yardage. also he was splitting carries with Buck.

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 12:54 PM
2008 offense + 2009 defense = first round bye

2008 defense + 2009 offense = first overall pick

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 12:55 PM
Dude, you can't be this delusional, can you?

then take the bet. 100 bucks says Orton wins or gets closer to a super bowl win than Cassell ever does.

BroncoBuff
02-19-2010, 12:59 PM
It was a lot more than the Baltimore game. I just edited that post and broke down the Steelers game as well. Do I need to do it for the entire season?

You added the Pittsburgh game the post, I thought it was interesting.

But to make this point, we should break down more of the season ... it kinda seemed to me the offense was a lot of 3-and-outs late in the season, but raw numbers would clear thing up better. Both number of plays, raw and per possession, and time of possession, preferably divided by halfs.

How much time you got? :~ohyah!:

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 12:59 PM
I think you are confused. They played like one of the greatest ever defenses for the first 6 weeks.

Just what I said.

They played like a top 10 defense for the season. It wasn't just a top 10 defense the first few weeks and dropped off to a crap one.

Indy, Philly, Oakland and KC in particular disagree.

Again, it is pretty easy to show that the weeks we gave up a lot of points, there was 0 team help. This is a crazy idea but the offense and special teams do have an effect on the defense.


Except in those games where, like in Indy, they gave up all those first quarter/first half points on long drives that had nothing to do with bad field position or being tired, etc. It happened.

As for Cutler having a better supporting cast either this year on the Bears, or the season before on this team, than what Orton had this year.... LOL You really want to get into a Cutler debate, don't you? Rediculous statements are a good way of baiting people into them.

I never said ANYTHING about Cutler's supporting case on the Bears. I said that, if Cutler were on the Broncos THIS YEAR, he would've had to overcome more things on his side of the ball.......namely a banged up OLine, worse running game and tougher schedule than he faced in 2008.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 01:00 PM
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Good take.

this game illustrates perfectly the talent that Orton has. he was picking apart Washington all game long until he hurt his ankle. he had time in the pocket to allow routes to develop, and it paid off huge with him hitting Marshall deep 2 times for scores.

give the guy protection and time for routes to develop and you will have a lot of good things happen.

BroncoBuff
02-19-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm a Jay fan, but I seriously doubt he wins more than 8 with this team this season.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 01:03 PM
I would say winning more is doing better. I know that is an insane concept. It is one I learned from you though. Do you not remember the Cutler Vs Orton debates? It never mattered that Orton had far superior defenses and better RBs. Now it matters for this debate? You guys need to make up your minds. You just continue to argue against yourselves when you constantly change like this.

Anyways, we had a top 10 defense as well. We didn't have as much skill in the run game, I will give you that. We have far better receivers and TEs though. It is probably why we had a pro bowl QB the year before. This team was set up to pass. To bad McDaniels went to Orton and made our strengths worthless.

give me a break about the Jets 1 more win than Denver, especially when you factor in that the last 2 weeks of the season the teams they played sat all their starters, and the fact that they won in spite of the play of Sanchez. Thomas Jones, Shonn Greene, Revis and their OL carried them to the playoffs.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:03 PM
and seriously, did you not watch the games to see just how awful our line played this season? Clady was our best lineman and technically he was nowhere near the level of play he was at his rookie year.


What is funny is you guys act like Orton has nothing to do with this. I called it would happen as soon as that trade went down. You know why? Because QBs have a lot to do with pass protection. It is their job to manipulate the pocket. Orton can't do it. Instead of thinking the only new piece is the problem, you guys actually think every individual regressed. That is such crap. We had the same pass blocking this year as last. Yes we had a big injury, the pass blocking was way worse before that injury though.

Again, everyone is so willing to throw all of our good players under the bus just to defend Orton. The top 10 defense, the best o-line from 08, and even guys like Royal who fully depend on the QB. It is sad to see. So many of these guys have done so much more for the team than Orton.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 01:06 PM
I just said I would be ok with drafting a QB with out first pick and throwing him in there. What I've gone on record saying is that Brandstater should be given a legit shot to compete. Let's see what we got. Brandstater had more playing experince than Matt Cassel both coming into the NFL.
So, let's find out, or ship him out...

However, we can still find a good QB that may not necessarily be a top-ten guy.
What I'm saying is that Orton doesn't give us a better chance at winning than a rookie or 2nd year QB would.
In fact, it will be more beneficial for us in the long run if we start working with a young QB this season.
We all know we ain't going nowhere with Orton, why bother?
No matter what we do to improve as a team this year, no matter what kind of exercise regime Orton undergoes this year, the bottom line is, with Orton at QB we will always be a dollar short.

so let me get this straight. you are not ok with Orton starting for us, but you would be fine giving a 3rd string guy who couldn't take Simms job after he showed just how awful he was, letting him compete to start because he has slightly better athletic ability?

also, the comparison to Cassell is very dumb. Cassell had 4 years to absorb an offense, learn behind one of the best in the league, and he still sucked the 1st few games he played, and only got better when McDaniels retooled the offense to fit his backup better.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:07 PM
this game illustrates perfectly the talent that Orton has. he was picking apart Washington all game long until he hurt his ankle. he had time in the pocket to allow routes to develop, and it paid off huge with him hitting Marshall deep 2 times for scores.

give the guy protection and time for routes to develop and you will have a lot of good things happen.

You mean he had a couple of big plays early and completely fell off. We were up like 17-0 or something to start. Well, that was a 7 point lead when Simms took over. Orton was losing the lead well before he got hurt. Nice revisionist history though.

Hamrob
02-19-2010, 01:07 PM
This is kind of funny. Either your gifted or your not. Look...what are they saying...that the guy is lazy when it comes to working out? I'm sure he does plenty of working out...and yes, agility...plyometrics...stuff like that can't hurt...but he is who we think he is. Nice guy...average to good QB.

If all guys had to do to become a star was to work on strength and agility...that would be one thing. But, expecting Kyle Orton to be anything but a good QB in a great system is going too far.

It's either inate ability (ala Elway/Favre/Manning) or your a system guy.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:08 PM
What is funny is you guys act like Orton has nothing to do with this. I called it would happen as soon as that trade went down. You know why? Because QBs have a lot to do with pass protection. It is their job to manipulate the pocket. Orton can't do it.

Do we really need to post that list of 10-12 probowl QBs that had fewer rushing yards than Orton this season. Is he slow? Yes. Does he fall down sometimes without being hit that hard? Yes. Is he incapable of sliding in the pocket and running when needed? Nope.

Instead of thinking the only new piece is the problem, you guys actually think every individual regressed. That is such crap. We had the same pass blocking this year as last. Yes we had a big injury, the pass blocking was way worse before that injury though.

You have no problem ignoring the supposed "only new piece", but you cannot acknowledge the "entire new system" old the old pieces were learning. Kupesdad himself came in here and talked about the OLine's struggles with it early in the season in particular. You can't get much more first hand than that around here. It's pretty elementary.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:10 PM
But, expecting Kyle Orton to be anything but a good QB in a great system is going too far.

dragster and jhns can't even admit he has that kind of potential. THAT is the problem I, and others, have. Nobody expects him to be a top 5 QB in this league, but to write off any chance of him becoming a top 10-12 guy for us for even just a year is just blind hate.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:13 PM
Just what I said.



Indy, Philly, Oakland and KC in particular disagree.



Except in those games where, like in Indy, they gave up all those first quarter/first half points on long drives that had nothing to do with bad field position or being tired, etc. It happened.



I never said ANYTHING about Cutler's supporting case on the Bears. I said that, if Cutler were on the Broncos THIS YEAR, he would've had to overcome more things on his side of the ball.......namely a banged up OLine, worse running game and tougher schedule than he faced in 2008.

I agree the defense had a few bad games. Every defense does. It doesn't take away from the top 10 defense. It means they weren't one of the greatest ever is all.

Orton had a far superior supporting cast. Cutler dealt with 5 times the number of injuries on his offense and team when he was here. That goes for both years he was here. Look at 2007. Far more o-line and offensive injuries. It was his first year starting and he was playing with a bunch of other new guys. They still outproduced the Orton led offense.

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 01:14 PM
Except in those games where, like in Indy, they gave up all those first quarter/first half points on long drives that had nothing to do with bad field position or being tired, etc. It happened.


The offense can't open the game with a 3 and out, turnover on downs, and a 5 and out and expect to win against the Colts. The Broncos had the ball for a whole 7 minutes and gained a whopping 66 yards while falling behind 21-0.

Similar pattern in the Eagles game when they fell behind 17 before waking up.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 01:15 PM
Cutler would've cost the Broncos at least two of those games in their 6-0 run to open the season with his patented multi-pick games. So, now you have to find 5 wins somewhere else in order to get to 11 wins in 2009 under Cutler.....you know, those games where they gave up 29.8 pts on average. Good luck with that. The "top 10" defense some give the Broncos credit for in 2009 are the same people that give the 2008 offense a "2nd place" ranking. Not surprising.

Sorry, game manager is not Cutler's forte and that's EXACTLY what the team needed in 2009 and was at least partially responsible for that nice defensive ranking. It's amazing how a defensive ranking can shoot up when the defense isn't constantly put in bad positions by their turnover prone QB.

damn right dude :thumbsup:

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 01:17 PM
I love the Redskins clip.

Both those Marshall TD's were on BLOWN coverages by the way...

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:18 PM
Do we really need to post that list of 10-12 probowl QBs that had fewer rushing yards than Orton this season. Is he slow? Yes. Does he fall down sometimes without being hit that hard? Yes. Is he incapable of sliding in the pocket and running when needed? Nope.



You have no problem ignoring the supposed "only new piece", but you cannot acknowledge the "entire new system" old the old pieces were learning. Kupesdad himself came in here and talked about the OLine's struggles with it early in the season in particular. You can't get much more first hand than that around here. It's pretty elementary.

Did I say Orton is immobile or something? I said he doesn't know how to manipulate a pocket. That has nothing to do with speed or agility. I agree, I can name a ton of big slow QBs that can manipulate pockets and help their o-line.

They were not learning a big new pass blocking system. Zone blocking is a rushing scheme. There isn't a lot you can do with pass pro. Their assignments may be a little different but I saw a lot of this line play great football as rookies. I highly doubt a few different assignments make them go from best in the league to major problem....

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 01:19 PM
Sorry, didn't want to quote the long post. The part you bolded was in response to this:

" The "top 10" defense some give the Broncos credit for in 2009 are the same people that give the 2008 offense a "2nd place" ranking. Not surprising"

I would say that is throwing the clear top 10 defense under the bus. How is this mis-stated?

that is not throwing the defense under the bus, that is telling what the defense actually was. they started the season incredible, and were a legit badass defense. but basically the entire 2nd half of the season they were horrible, allowing on average almost 30 a game.

it was a tale of 2 different defenses.


same as with the number 2 offense in 08 that so many think was a great thing, but needs to be looked at closely to see that over an entire season it wasn't anything special. outside of a few games and the 1st 3 of the 08 season, the offensive scoring was mediocre, and not worthy of a number 2 overall ranking.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:25 PM
You added the Pittsburgh game the post, I thought it was interesting.

But to make this point, we should break down more of the season ... it kinda seemed to me the offense was a lot of 3-and-outs late in the season, but raw numbers would clear thing up better. Both number of plays, raw and per possession, and time of possession, preferably divided by halfs.

How much time you got? :~ohyah!:

I think I may do this if I am bored sometime this weekend. Maybe I can prove a point or shut myself up. Either way, it should be interesting.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 01:29 PM
I love the Redskins clip.

Both those Marshall TD's were on BLOWN coverages by the way...

AND? The statement quoted was that Orton can't "throw the damn ball." That clip shows otherwise.

Anything else?

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:30 PM
The offense can't open the game with a 3 and out, turnover on downs, and a 5 and out and expect to win against the Colts.

The defense can't give up 3 TDs on three straight drives to open the game and expect to win either. Especially considering all of the drives started on their own side of the field. There was no excuse.

I don't care if the offense goes three and out. That is too early in the game for it to have that kind of effect on the defense. Just look at one of the games being discussed in the other thread. Chicago vs. San Fran from this year. Cutler's offense did nothing all game besides punt the ball and turn the ball over 5 times. Chicago still managed to hold San Fran to 10 pts. Occasionally, defenses have to deal with a little adversity and not give up long TD drive after long TD drive. Especially one that is supposedly "top 10".

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 01:31 PM
AND? The statement quoted was that Orton can't "throw the damn ball." That clip shows otherwise.

Anything else?

Anybody could've thrown that.

Well, anybody except Chris Simms.

LOL

BroncoBuff
02-19-2010, 01:32 PM
AND? The statement quoted was that Orton can't "throw the damn ball." That clip shows otherwise.

Anything else?

That's one throw moose ... a pretty good throw, but still just one throw. Please tell me you don't think this one thrown somehow wins the argument? You're smarter than that.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 01:33 PM
You mean he had a couple of big plays early and completely fell off. We were up like 17-0 or something to start. Well, that was a 7 point lead when Simms took over. Orton was losing the lead well before he got hurt. Nice revisionist history though.

since when does Orton play defense and play a role in how much the opposition scores? why is it on Orton that the ST didn't call a timeout when everyone knew a trick play was coming that resulted in a TD and tied the game at 14?

Orton was losing the game before he got hurt is an ignorant thing to say because when he was on the field the team never once trailed, and it was the defense allowing Washington to keep it close through the 1st half.

and for the record it was Orton had led them to a 3 point lead before injury took him out of the game, and injured the ankle scrambling for extra yardage to get the team in FG range

Orton's stats for the 1st half

Passer Rating 134.7 Completions 11 Attempts 18 Yards 193 Long 75 INTs 0 TDs 2

yeah he was terrible that game.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:35 PM
The defense can't give up 3 TDs on three straight drives to open the game and expect to win either. Especially considering all of the drives started on their own side of the field. There was no excuse.

I don't care if the offense goes three and out. That is too early in the game for it to have that kind of effect on the defense. Just look at one of the games being discussed in the other thread. Chicago vs. San Fran from this year. Cutler's offense did nothing all game besides punt the ball and turn the ball over 5 times. Chicago still managed to hold San Fran to 10 pts. Occasionally, defenses have to deal with a little adversity and not give up long TD drive after long TD drive. Especially one that is supposedly "top 10".

Playing the 9ers is the same as playing the Colts!!!!!

Come on now, you are getting rediculous. You are right that there is no excuse for giving up those scores early but these two games do not compare at all. Your offense has know they need to score more playing the Colts. Especialluy when you force a ton of turnovers against the Colts and set them up great for a comeback. It is nothing like playing the 9ers.

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 01:36 PM
The defense can't give up 3 TDs on three straight drives to open the game and expect to win either. Especially considering all of the drives started on their own side of the field. There was no excuse.

I don't care if the offense goes three and out. That is too early in the game for it to have that kind of effect on the defense.

Well, it was actually 3 out of the first 4 Colts drives, but point taken. Two of the drives were long. One drive was after the 2 failed short yardage attempts near midfield. The problem is when you're playing the Colts, you HAVE to score. Expecting to totally shut them out isn't happening.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:38 PM
since when does Orton play defense and play a role in how much the opposition scores? why is it on Orton that the ST didn't call a timeout when everyone knew a trick play was coming that resulted in a TD and tied the game at 14?

Orton was losing the game before he got hurt is an ignorant thing to say because when he was on the field the team never once trailed, and it was the defense allowing Washington to keep it close through the 1st half.

and for the record it was Orton had led them to a 3 point lead before injury took him out of the game, and injured the ankle scrambling for extra yardage to get the team in FG range

Orton's stats for the 1st half

Passer Rating 134.7 Completions 11 Attempts 18 Yards 193 Long 75 INTs 0 TDs 2

yeah he was terrible that game.

Sorry, I just state facts. The offense stalled after a few big plays. The skins had already taken the majority of our lead away before Simms ever saw the field. Your revisionist history that Orton had that game in the bag will only work when talking to someone that didn't watch the game.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:40 PM
Playing the 9ers is the same as playing the Colts!!!!!
.

I didn't say that at all, but ok.

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 01:40 PM
Sorry, I just state facts. The offense stalled after a few big plays. The skins had already taken the majority of our lead away before Simms ever saw the field. Your revisionist history that Orton had that game in the bag will only work when talking to someone that didn't watch the game.

I was at the game.

The game turned when the Redskins ran that fake FG.

AFTER showing a fake FG alignment before calling timeout!

It was in hand up to that point.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:43 PM
Well, it was actually 3 out of the first 4 Colts drives, but point taken. Two of the drives were long. One drive was after the 2 failed short yardage attempts near midfield. The problem is when you're playing the Colts, you HAVE to score. Expecting to totally shut them out isn't happening.

I'm not expecting that at all, but the Colts only averaged 26 pts per game all season long. You can't give up 21 in the first 20 minutes and expect to have any chance to win regardless of what your offense does.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:44 PM
I didn't say that at all, but ok.

You just compared them and talked about how top defenses play like the Bears did against the 9ers. How is that relevant then? Why are we a "supposed top 10" defense for haveing a single bad game against one of the two great offenses in the league? How is the 9er game at all relevant to playing one of the two best offenses in the league?

Right, it isn't. We aren't a supposed top 10 defense. We were a top 10 defense. You can twist it however you want. Your dream boy Orton couldn't get it done with a top 10 defense.

jhns
02-19-2010, 01:47 PM
I was at the game.

The game turned when the Redskins ran that fake FG.

AFTER showing a fake FG alignment before calling timeout!

It was in hand up to that point.

Yeah, I lost some hair that day. I still do not understand how that happens.

WolfpackGuy
02-19-2010, 01:51 PM
Yeah, I lost some hair that day. I still do not understand how that happens.

Marcus Thomas "covering" Mike Sellers was...original...

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Yeah, I lost some hair that day. I still do not understand how that happens.

genetics.....stress....weird chemicals your body makes

depends on who you believe

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 01:59 PM
You just compared them and talked about how top defenses play like the Bears did against the 9ers. How is that relevant then?

I was comparing how different defenses react to adversity.

Why are we a "supposed top 10" defense for haveing a single bad game against one of the two great offenses in the league?

A single bad game? Indy averaged only 26 pts per game on offense. They were ranked 7th. We gave up 28 pts, and that was only because Indy had it on cruise control much of the 2nd half.

This defense allowed an average of 29 pts per game in their losses. How many of those opponents averaged 29 pts for the year? I'll tell you. Zero.

How is the 9er game at all relevant to playing one of the two best offenses in the league?

The Colts were the #9 ranked offense in the NFL genius, 7th in pts (as a matter of fact, there was only a difference of 5 pts per game between them and the 49ers).


Right, it isn't. We aren't a supposed top 10 defense. We were a top 10 defense. You can twist it however you want. Your dream boy Orton couldn't get it done with a top 10 defense.

One that couldn't hold any team under their season average in points at the end.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 02:01 PM
That's one throw moose ... a pretty good throw, but still just one throw. Please tell me you don't think this one thrown somehow wins the argument? You're smarter than that.

It does win the argument.

The statement was made: "Orton cannot throw the damn ball."

The clip was shared of Orton throwing the damn ball pretty damn well.

The original statement claims he "cannot" do something. The clip shows him doing that which it was claimed he cannot do, rendering the statement incorrect.

I'm not sure why this confuses you. Does it say Orton's the best QB on the planet? No. That he can thread a ball through six defenders? No. That he can leap tall buildings in a single bound? No.

But it addresses the original statement quite well.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 02:02 PM
Sorry, I just state facts. The offense stalled after a few big plays. The skins had already taken the majority of our lead away before Simms ever saw the field. Your revisionist history that Orton had that game in the bag will only work when talking to someone that didn't watch the game.

that game was back and forth the entire 1st half and that had absolutely nothing to do with Orton's play. you in your original post are completely off base. you say we were up 17-0 and then imploded. we were tied 7-7, then 14-14 and Orton took the lead going into halftime 17-14. the fact that Washington was still in the game was squarely on the defense, and not Orton. also, I haven't said Orton had the game in the bag, I have only said he was having a kickass game and if the defense would have pulled its head out of their ass, he would have had the team going into halftime up by at least 10.

and if you are going to state facts as you say you do. maybe you should get them straight.

that is why everyone gets annoyed with you. you try to spout off and argue on things that you are completely wrong about. and then twist other posters words to make your point seem plausible

jhat01
02-19-2010, 02:04 PM
I was at the game.

The game turned when the Redskins ran that fake FG.

AFTER showing a fake FG alignment before calling timeout!

It was in hand up to that point.

I was too...great seats...2nd level and right behind a GIANT CONCRETE PILLAR!!! hahaha we were pissed! Had to watch half the plays on a tiny blurry ass TV hanging over heads.

BroncoBuff
02-19-2010, 02:05 PM
It does win the argument.

The statement was made: "Orton cannot throw the damn ball."

The clip was shared of Orton throwing the damn ball pretty damn well.

You're being too literal ... that opinion was clearly a general comment about Orton, it didn't mean he never threw a ball well.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:07 PM
You're being too literal ... that opinion was clearly a general comment about Orton, it didn't mean he never threw a ball well.

Go look back at page one of the Gaffney thread that we've been posting in. Several more examples of beautiful medium to long distance throws that required timing and accuracy.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 02:07 PM
You just compared them and talked about how top defenses play like the Bears did against the 9ers. How is that relevant then? Why are we a "supposed top 10" defense for haveing a single bad game against one of the two great offenses in the league? How is the 9er game at all relevant to playing one of the two best offenses in the league?

Right, it isn't. We aren't a supposed top 10 defense. We were a top 10 defense. You can twist it however you want. Your dream boy Orton couldn't get it done with a top 10 defense.

he was never comparing the Bears defense to ours, or the 9ers offense to the Colts. he was simply using that game as a comparison of sometimes the defense is going to need to step up when the offense is sputtering. he is saying that even though the offense against Indy wasn't doing anything the defense needed to step up and prevent Indy from dropping 3 TDs on them on their 1st 3 drives.

had nothing to do with comparing talent and you know that, you are just doing what you always do in twisting words to make yourself feel vindicated.

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:10 PM
I was comparing how different defenses react to adversity.



A single bad game? Indy averaged only 26 pts per game on offense. They were ranked 7th. We gave up 28 pts, and that was only because Indy had it on cruise control much of the 2nd half.

This defense allowed an average of 29 pts per game in their losses. How many of those opponents averaged 29 pts for the year? I'll tell you. Zero.



The Colts were the #9 ranked offense in the NFL genius, 7th in pts (as a matter of fact, there was only a difference of 5 pts per game between them and the 49ers).




One that couldn't hold any team under their season average in points at the end.

You live to much off of random stats. Indy was one of the top offenses. They also sat people to make it look worse. They also had a great defense and didn't need to score all the time. Your rankings are dumb. Anyone in the world would take Indy or NO over any other offense. If you wouldn't, it is because you just look at numbers and don't care to watch the sport.

Again, we had a top 10 defense, not the greatest ever. They held many of those teams until the rest of the team did nothing. They can't do it all themselves. A couple of bad games doesn't prove any different. A ton of bad games by the offense proves this correct. Again, just look at the first two losses. Both gave up a ton of points because the offense put them in such horrible position.

Anyways, you aren't even using the correct numbers. It shows how much of an argument you really have. Some of the points in your averages were from the offense. There were multiple pick 6's. You also are blaming the defense for the multiple times the offense gave up the ball within 20-40 yards of our own end zone. Again, you just have to throw the rest of the team under the bus to defend Orton. It is sad.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:13 PM
Soooooo, the same stats that I for some reason can't use to defend my point about Indy you CAN use to talk about our #10 ranked defense. That's rich.

And what games exactly did Indy cost themselves offensively by sitting guys? The Jets? Nope. They were doing nothing with the starters in there. Nice try, though.

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:16 PM
Soooooo, the same stats that I for some reason can't use to defend my point about Indy you CAN use to talk about our #10 ranked defense. That's rich.

And what games exactly did Indy cost themselves offensively by sitting guys? The Jets? Nope. They were doing nothing with the starters in there. Nice try, though.

LOL

Wow... I guess we are done then?

oubronco
02-19-2010, 02:19 PM
My question is: why the hell didn't they throw it deep all season long?

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:22 PM
My question is: why the hell didn't they throw it deep all season long?

Orton sucks on throws over 10 yards. Play calling reflected those limitations.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:22 PM
My question is: why the hell didn't they throw it deep all season long?

OLine was collapsing a lot...and quickly much of the year. That was one of the few games they really seemed to form a nice pocket for him consistently.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:24 PM
Orton sucks on throws over 10 yards. Play calling reflected those limitations.

All evidence to the contrary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcTXwZgtDnU

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:27 PM
All evidence to the contrary:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YcTXwZgtDnU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YcTXwZgtDnU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Sorry, I see no evidence. I don't have access to flash. If it is the redskins game, I don't see how that says different. He threw it up twice when guys were open by over 20 yards. That doesn't exactly take accuracy. Receivers do have the ability to run under a ball or stop for it if it is off and they have no defense on them. I would say the entire season, as well as the coaches play calling, back up what I am saying. Shoot, just look at Ortons stats on throws over 10 yards. It is really a sad thing to see.

oubronco
02-19-2010, 02:29 PM
OLine was collapsing a lot...and quickly much of the year. That was one of the few games they really seemed to form a nice pocket for him consistently.

The play was setup by playaction they could've tried a few times a game to keep the defense honest and open up the run and short stuff they love

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:35 PM
Sorry, I see no evidence. I don't have access to flash. If it is the redskins game, I don't see how that says different. He threw it up twice when guys were open by over 20 yards. That doesn't exactly take accuracy. Receivers do have the ability to run under a ball or stop for it if it is off and they have no defense on them. I would say the entire season, as well as the coaches play calling, back up what I am saying. Shoot, just look at Ortons stats on throws over 10 yards. It is really a sad thing to see.

Nope....not Skins. It's the Jabar Gaffney highlight reel. I adjusted the link, so it should work now.

It demonstrates medium to long distance throws with velocity and accuracy when needed, touch and accuracy in others.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 02:36 PM
All evidence to the contrary:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YcTXwZgtDnU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YcTXwZgtDnU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

the majority of that clip showed to me the point i have been trying to make. look at the level of protection that Orton has on those throws. he has time to survey the field, alow routes to develop, go through his reads and then step into the throw. give him protection and he is a really good QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 02:40 PM
You're being too literal ... that opinion was clearly a general comment about Orton, it didn't mean he never threw a ball well.

Oy vey.

A general comment about Orton, that he doesn't know how or "CANNOT" throw the ball well. Which was disproved.

How can it be too literal? The opinion was incorrect.

If he'd said "Orton needs to improve his consistency with his throws," and then I posted one throw, you'd have a point. He didn't. And you don't.

BroncoBuff
02-19-2010, 02:40 PM
That first Gaffney catch was a great catch.

It's true though, we went deep far less this year than last. But I'd attribute that more to the NE offense than Orton.

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:41 PM
Nope....not Skins. It's the Jabar Gaffney highlight reel. I adjusted the link, so it should work now.

It demonstrates medium to long distance throws with velocity and accuracy when needed, touch and accuracy in others.

I still can hardly see it but I do agree he had a lot of great throws that game. To bad he showed that when we open up the offense for him, against a horrible team, that he turns into the bad part of Jay Cutler. What was it? 3 picks and 2 for TDs? Ouch.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 02:42 PM
I still can hardly see it but I do agree he had a lot of great throws that game. To bad he showed that when we open up the offense for him, against a horrible team, that he turns into the bad part of Jay Cutler. What was it? 3 picks and 2 for TDs? Ouch.

The famous jhns argument frame shift. Great to see it again.

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:45 PM
The famous jhns argument frame shift. Great to see it again.

Well how does that game support Orton being a good QB? We opened up the offense for him, he **** himself. How is that an argument in favor of him?

Anyways, him having some good throws in a single game does not disprove what was shown all season. The coach didn't trust him and he had horrible stats when he did throw beyond 10 yards. I'm not sure how admitting that he made good throws in 1 game(that he lost for the team) is shifting.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 02:47 PM
Well how does that game support Orton being a good QB? We opened up the offense for him, he **** himself. How is that an argument in favor of him?

What a simple world you must live in.

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:49 PM
What a simple world you must live in.

So.... What are you saying exactly? Orton had a good game? Why is it that Cutler was bad in 08 again?

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:50 PM
Anyways, him having some good throws in a single game does not disprove what was shown all season. The coach didn't trust him and he had horrible stats when he did throw beyond 10 yards. I'm not sure how admitting that he made good throws in 1 game(that he lost for the team) is shifting.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!?????!!!

The highlight real I just posted is a season long compilation. It is not just one game. He was connecting with Gaffney on deeper routes all season long when it was called and when he was given the necessary protection. This is not just some one game aberration.

jhns
02-19-2010, 02:56 PM
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!?????!!!

The highlight real I just posted is a season long compilation. It is not just one game. He was connecting with Gaffney on deeper routes all season long when it was called and when he was given the necessary protection. This is not just some one game aberration.

Sorry, like I said, can't see it. It showed some against the Chiefs, I figured it was a highlight reel from when Gaffbey played top receiver.

This is your problem though. You think a highlight reel shows something. What about the other 5634 plays last season? He had some good throws to Gaffney every now and then and that shows he is accurate or can throw beyond 15 yards? Really? Again, look at the splits. He is horrible on throws over 10 yards. Yes, I get that he makes a few still. That doesn't change what I just said.

Even though that isn't all the Chiefs game, my point there still stands. It was the one time they actually opened up the offense for Orton. He lost the game for us.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 02:59 PM
This is your problem though. You think a highlight reel shows something. What about the other 5634 plays last season? He had some good throws to Gaffney every now and then and that shows he is accurate or can throw beyond 15 yards? Really? Again, look at the splits. He is horrible on throws over 10 yards. Yes, I get that he makes a few still. That doesn't change what I just said.

My problem? So my problem is that I provide visual evidence to support my side of the argument. Your problem is that you can't do the same for yours.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-19-2010, 03:00 PM
My problem? So my problem is that I provide visual evidence to support my side of the argument. Your problem is that you can't do the same for yours.

It's because his argument changes.

First, it's "Orton can't throw the ball."

Then it's "Why wasn't Cutler good in '08 again?"

Then it's "Look at the splits!"

jhns: re-framing arguments on the Mane since 2006.

jhns
02-19-2010, 03:03 PM
My problem? So my problem is that I provide visual evidence to support my side of the argument. Your problem is that you can't do the same for yours.

That is real fair. People always make films showing all of the bad plays of a player. I should be able to find that just as easily as you took someone elses work, right? No? Maybe you expect me to go make a film of all the bad throws while you just look up these? Is that it? I don't understand?

jhns
02-19-2010, 03:06 PM
It's because his argument changes.

First, it's "Orton can't throw the ball."


When did I say this? My argument hasn't changed at all. You all just get frustrated because there is no way to defend Orton. It is why you can't actually argue any of the points. You just come to cry about it.

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 03:06 PM
That is real fair. People always make films showing all of the bad plays of a player. I should be able to find that just as easily as you took someone elses work, right? No? Maybe you expect me to go make a film of all the bad throws while you just look up these? Is that it? I don't understand?

You haven't been on youtube much, have you? It's actually not hard to find just what you are talking about.

jhns
02-19-2010, 03:11 PM
You haven't been on youtube much, have you? It's actually not hard to find just what you are talking about.

Nope, I really don't go to youtube. Sitting on the internet all day is for nerds.
Also, selective plays being put into clips don't show much. I can make Cutler look like the greatest ever QB doing that. If you really think these are proof of something, you mise well start calling Cutler "Elway 2". The first comment after the great Cutler clip can be: "Look, he didn't ever throw a pick! He has figured it out!"

Florida_Bronco
02-19-2010, 03:13 PM
Nope....not Skins. It's the Jabar Gaffney highlight reel. I adjusted the link, so it should work now.

It demonstrates medium to long distance throws with velocity and accuracy when needed, touch and accuracy in others.

That play at 44 seconds into the video is awesome. He throws the ball from the 7 yard line and to where it's caught at the 35 yard line. That's a 28 yard pass that was thrown on a frozen rope right into Gaffney's hands. When you consider that the pass was thrown at an angle across the field, the ball probably traveled 35 yards in the air.

Anyone who claims that Orton has a weak arm needs to look no further than that play to see how incredibly wrong they are.

Rabb
02-19-2010, 03:15 PM
Nope, I really don't go to youtube. Sitting on the internet all day is for nerds.
Also, selective plays being put into clips don't show much. I can make Cutler look like the greatest ever QB doing that. If you really think these are proof of something, you mise well start calling Cutler "Elway 2". The first comment after the great Cutler clip can be: "Look, he didn't ever throw a pick! He has figured it out!"

um, where are we?

Beantown Bronco
02-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Nope, I really don't go to youtube. Sitting on the internet all day is for nerds.


It's a good thing, then, that the Mane isn't an Internet site.


Also, selective plays being put into clips don't show much. I can make Cutler look like the greatest ever QB doing that. If you really think these are proof of something, you mise well start calling Cutler "Elway 2". The first comment after the great Cutler clip can be: "Look, he didn't ever throw a pick! He has figured it out!"

Wrong. They prove that he has the ability to throw beyond 10 yards with accuracy, which is all that was needed to debunk the myth presented. No criteria percentage-wise was required based on the debate, so tons and tons of data are not needed. One single throw would actually accomplish the result.

jhns
02-19-2010, 03:18 PM
um, where are we?

It was a joke but I really don't go to youtube much.

Hamrob
02-19-2010, 03:18 PM
dragster and jhns can't even admit he has that kind of potential. THAT is the problem I, and others, have. Nobody expects him to be a top 5 QB in this league, but to write off any chance of him becoming a top 10-12 guy for us for even just a year is just blind hate.He can be a top 10-12 guy just by our system. He was around 14 or so this year.

Elway set the bar...I want a top-5 guy. We've been spoiled.

bowtown
02-19-2010, 03:19 PM
Nope, I really don't go to youtube. Sitting on the internet all day is for nerds. Also, selective plays being put into clips don't show much. I can make Cutler look like the greatest ever QB doing that. If you really think these are proof of something, you mise well start calling Cutler "Elway 2". The first comment after the great Cutler clip can be: "Look, he didn't ever throw a pick! He has figured it out!"

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp

jhns
02-19-2010, 03:20 PM
It's a good thing, then, that the Mane isn't an Internet site.



Wrong. They prove that he has the ability to throw beyond 10 yards with accuracy, which is all that was needed to debunk the myth presented. No criteria percentage-wise was required based on the debate, so tons and tons of data are not needed. One single throw would actually accomplish the result.

Him making a couple of good throws does not mean he is good at throwing over 10 yards. I never said he physically can't. I said he is bad at it.

jhns
02-19-2010, 03:21 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp

Is that some kind of racist remark?

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Orton can make the play if he's given the time. Orton has shown he can read defenses (at times) and make the plays if they are there.

The issue is if Orton can makes those plays/throws when the window isn't big and when you're in crunch time. He doesn't force the ball much. We pretty much had 2 QB's on 2 different sides of the spectrum... Jay Cutler who would try and force everything and Orton who would rarely force anything.

Another issue with Orton is that he doesn't survey the whole field, and this was glaringly more obvious when you watch him in person. Maybe it's part of the offense to make a defensive read and then decide on which side of the field to attack. However when you look at the elites they'll able to process the information quick and survey most the field which makes them dangerous.

This is kind of what happened in the Ravens game, he got owned pretty much by surveying one side of the field. Not having great protection wasn't exactly good either.

Orton has shown flashes but he needs to be consistent and he definitely needs to improve in many areas.

One thing though, I highly doubt before Orton was on the Broncos, no one in the world including Orton himself thought he could be this good or even function in a pass heavy offense. Kudos to McDaniels on this...

jhat01
02-19-2010, 04:28 PM
is that some kind of racist remark?

rofl!

strafen
02-19-2010, 06:29 PM
This is a terrible argument to make if you're somehow trying to say Cutler wins more games for the 2009 Broncos than Orton does.

In the eight games that Denver lost......

Opponents scored....
30,28,27,32,28,20,30,44

That's an AVERAGE of 29.9 PPG.I'm assuming these 8 losses you're talking about are from the 2009 season and not from the 2008 season, correct?
Well, what's funny about this is that Orton's efficiency during those losses happen to take a dive as well.
Of the last 10 games (2-8) out of the top of my head Orton had like 8td's and 9 ints?
At least it was something close to that. So to blame the defense just goes to show you that if we want to win with Orton we have to surround him with a legit top-3 defense in the whole NFL.

strafen
02-19-2010, 06:31 PM
2008 offense + 2009 defense = first round bye

2008 defense + 2009 offense = first overall pickNo ****!
Couldn't agree more! ^5

strafen
02-19-2010, 06:43 PM
so let me get this straight. you are not ok with Orton starting for us, but you would be fine giving a 3rd string guy who couldn't take Simms job after he showed just how awful he was, letting him compete to start because he has slightly better athletic ability?

also, the comparison to Cassell is very dumb. Cassell had 4 years to absorb an offense, learn behind one of the best in the league, and he still sucked the 1st few games he played, and only got better when McDaniels retooled the offense to fit his backup better.That's what I'm saying.
I don't see how we can get any worse...
You're talking, or let me say it this way, Mcdaniels is talking about getting Orton in some kind of weight, conditioning and strength program, then we need to give him a stout defense, then we need to coach him not to make bonehead mistakes and to manage the game.
Why don't we spend that time and effort on a young QB?
Why after 6 years in the league playing professional football a guy like Orton has neglected to get stronger and hit the weights on such physical and violent game?
That just show you he's just riding the pine. He's not quite dedicated to the sport, and now we want to make him do something he knew better to do?

This is what I have a hard time wrapping my brains around.
This is not what I'd call commitment. Do we want a guy like that to lead our team?
QB is more than just being physical strong, which Orton already lacks, it's about many intangibles that complete the whole picture.
Orton can not improvise when everything around him collapses. He can't make something out of nothing as it has been the trademark of a great QB.

You agree he's ok for now as our QB. I say why?
Let's move on and have somebody who is going to be here for the long run and give us a better chance to win...

strafen
02-19-2010, 06:46 PM
That's one throw moose ... a pretty good throw, but still just one throw. Please tell me you don't think this one thrown somehow wins the argument? You're smarter than that.Exactly. We didn't see that consistently week in and week out.
There's more than just a nice throw every other blue moon.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 06:55 PM
That's what I'm saying.
I don't see how we can get any worse...
You're talking, or let me say it this way, Mcdaniels is talking about getting Orton in some kind of weight, conditioning and strength program, then we need to give him a stout defense, then we need to coach him not to make bonehead mistakes and to manage the game.
Why don't we spend that time and effort on a young QB?
Why after 6 years in the league playing professional football a guy like Orton has neglected to get stronger and hit the weights on such physical and violent game?
That just show you he's just riding the pine. He's not quite dedicated to the sport, and now we want to make him do something he knew better to do?

This is what I have a hard time wrapping my brains around.
This is not what I'd call commitment. Do we want a guy like that to lead our team?
QB is more than just being physical strong, which Orton already lacks, it's about many tangibles that complete the whole picture.
Orton can not improvise when everything around him collapses. He can't make something out of nothing as it has been the trademark of a great QB.

You agree he's ok for now as our QB. I say why?
Let's move on and have somebody who is going to be here for the long run and give us a better chance to win...

you talk like he has never worked to make himself stronger, but there is a difference between keeping yourself in playing shape and doing targeted work to make certain muscle groupings stronger, and focused training to increase agility and speed.

think about this. Chicago, is not exactly a place known for building QBs. do you really think anyone associated with the team had any idea of how to build up a QB and help him take the next step in his development? also think of this, in 1 season with coaches who know how to train QBs he had a the best season of his career. with more training with the help of intelligent offensive coaching he will take another step towards becoming a potential franchise QB.

you say let's move on to a long term guy, and that guy in your opinion is Brandstater, who once again, was not even good enough to take Simms job let alone become a viable option as starting NFL QB


it is asinine comments like these, that make people on this board question your football intelligence and get annoyed with you as you see no one elses point of view as anything more than a cue to start an argument.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 06:56 PM
Exactly. We didn't see that consistently week in and week out.
There's more than just a nice throw every other blue moon.

we also didn't see him have that kind of protection week in and week out

strafen
02-19-2010, 07:19 PM
you talk like he has never worked to make himself stronger, but there is a difference between keeping yourself in playing shape and doing targeted work to make certain muscle groupings stronger, and focused training to increase agility and speed.

think about this. Chicago, is not exactly a place known for building QBs. do you really think anyone associated with the team had any idea of how to build up a QB and help him take the next step in his development? also think of this, in 1 season with coaches who know how to train QBs he had a the best season of his career. with more training with the help of intelligent offensive coaching he will take another step towards becoming a potential franchise QB.

you say let's move on to a long term guy, and that guy in your opinion is Brandstater, who once again, was not even good enough to take Simms job let alone become a viable option as starting NFL QB


it is asinine comments like these, that make people on this board question your football intelligence and get annoyed with you as you see no one elses point of view as anything more than a cue to start an argument.I didn't say let's give the job to Brandstater. I said let's give him a chance to compete. Let's find out if he is or he's not the prospect McDaniels thought he would be when he drafted him.
Also, we could draft another QB and give him the same chance to compete.

The fact that I know for certain Orton is not the QB we want or need doesn't make my football knowledge more or less than yours by insisting we should stick with him. I don't have to agree with you to be accepted. I'm sticking to my conviction about Orton in a way I feel that what I've said so far carries more weight and stands a better chance to be proven right than what you're trying to prove.

Another thing I have to say about your comment about Chicago.
It's not up to the team to train their QB to strengthen his body more than it is up to the QB himself.
Orton knows his body and limitations better than anyone else. Why does he need to be told he needs to hit the weights?
I agree that being in football shape is something he'll take on his own, plus TC, practice and all of that provides the shape he needs to be football wise, but still you have to take care of your body and work on your weakness to make it into your forte...

strafen
02-19-2010, 07:21 PM
we also didn't see him have that kind of protection week in and week outAgain, we can't build the perfect world around this guy for him to be effective.
Sometimes you have to improvise and create your own luck...

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 07:32 PM
Again, we can't build the perfect world around this guy for him to be effective.
Sometimes you have to improvise and create your own luck...

Improvise? WTF? :spit:

Manning has an outstanding oline. Look at Brett Favre after he got a good oline, his best season ever. Tom Brady... ETC... every good/great QB has a good oline blocking for him, PERIOD.

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 07:36 PM
I'm not here trying to defend Orton and his short comings but to sit here and say that he should deal with his oline is absolute crazy... are we even talking about football anymore?

Philip Rivers, etc.

This is why the trenches are the most important groups of football. Every top team will have a good oline, period. Your QB can have a Madden rating of 99 across the board and you won't be **** without a oline in the NFL.

The reason why I mention Madden to you, dragster, is because that's your logical limitation when talking about football. LOL

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 07:44 PM
it is asinine comments like these, that make people on this board question your football intelligence and get annoyed with you as you see no one elses point of view as anything more than a cue to start an argument.

I'm telling you, I don't know how old he is but his logic/intelligence doesn't stretch beyond someone in the 8th grade.

The fact that he knows he's blocked by most people here yet he continues to sit here and talk nonsense lets me know he's desperate. :rofl:

This guy deserves to be blocked, his input is worth less than a piece of toilet paper after I wiped my ass.

strafen
02-19-2010, 07:45 PM
I'm not here trying to defend Orton and his short comings but to sit here and say that he should deal with his oline is absolute crazy... are we even talking about football anymore?

Philip Rivers, etc.

This is why the trenches are the most important groups of football. Every top team will have a good oline, period. Your QB can have a Madden rating of 99 across the board and you won't be **** without a oline in the NFL.

The reason why I mention Madden to you, dragster, is because that's your logical limitation when talking about football. LOLIt just doesn't matter what you do.
Orton is not that good of a QB, period.
I don't know how I can make that any more clear.
I guess we're going to have and wait for the season to start and see who was right. I like my chances a lot! :thumbsup:

strafen
02-19-2010, 07:48 PM
I'm telling you, I don't know how old he is but his logic/intelligence doesn't stretch beyond someone in the 8th grade.

The fact that he knows he's blocked by most people here yet he continues to sit here and talk nonsense lets me know he's desperate. :rofl:I'm older than you, and I'm also bigger than you are.
And...I weight more than an 8th grader :strong:
Tell me what is it I'm desperate about?
Show me what I've said that makes no sense.
I can assure you I'll be able to prove I was right when the season starts more than you'll be able to say you were right. That's all it matters to me.
Do I want my team to win?
Yes I do.
Do I think we can win with Orton?
No, I don't
So far, this has been an interesting debate free of drama.
Enter MVPlaya' to ruin it with his underhanded shots.
If you want to discuss football, go right ahead. If you want to flame and insult, I can do that too.
Your choice...
Otherwise put me on your ignore list.

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 07:48 PM
It just doesn't matter what you do.
Orton is not that good of a QB, period.
I don't know how I can make that any more clear.
I guess we're going to have and wait for the season to start and see who was right. I like my chances a lot! :thumbsup:

As I said, I'm not here defending Orton. I'm just here to input that regardless of who is back there, your oline is extremely crucial.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 07:50 PM
Again, we can't build the perfect world around this guy for him to be effective.
Sometimes you have to improvise and create your own luck...

and there you go again taking everything written to astronimically stupid levels.

i am saying we can bring in guys to give him protection. look at the top QBs in the league. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, all of them have really good offensive lines keeping their QB on their feet.

look at that highlight reel. that shows exactly how good Orton can be if he has the necessary protection.

build up the offensive line and he will be without question a top 10 QB in the league.

strafen
02-19-2010, 07:55 PM
and there you go again taking everything written to astronimically stupid levels.

i am saying we can bring in guys to give him protection. look at the top QBs in the league. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, all of them have really good offensive lines keeping their QB on their feet.

look at that highlight reel. that shows exactly how good Orton can be if he has the necessary protection.

build up the offensive line and he will be without question a top 10 QB in the league.Exactly what I've been saying.
Those guys can improvise. Brees, Manning, Brady and Rivers, they all can. Orton can not. And that's what helps your o-line efficiency. Orton can't do crap to help the o-line. He depends more on the o-line, than the o-line depends on him for help when needed. Can you understand that concept?
He needs a super Oline to make him more efficient.
Orton can't even stay on his feet on his own.
We've had one of the best o-line in football for the last 3 years. We have Orton as our QB and all the sudden the whole o-line it ain't worth a ****.
Give me a freakin' break.
Now, that's astronomically stupid, don't you think?
It takes oner to know one...

Paladin
02-19-2010, 08:02 PM
This message is hidden because dragster69 is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:06 PM
This message is hidden because dragster69 is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

:welcome: ROFL!

rastaman
02-19-2010, 08:11 PM
Orton can make the play if he's given the time. Orton has shown he can read defenses (at times) and make the plays if they are there.

The issue is if Orton can makes those plays/throws when the window isn't big and when you're in crunch time. He doesn't force the ball much. We pretty much had 2 QB's on 2 different sides of the spectrum... Jay Cutler who would try and force everything and Orton who would rarely force anything.

Another issue with Orton is that he doesn't survey the whole field, and this was glaringly more obvious when you watch him in person. Maybe it's part of the offense to make a defensive read and then decide on which side of the field to attack. However when you look at the elites they'll able to process the information quick and survey most the field which makes them dangerous.

This is kind of what happened in the Ravens game, he got owned pretty much by surveying one side of the field. Not having great protection wasn't exactly good either.

Orton has shown flashes but he needs to be consistent and he definitely needs to improve in many areas.

One thing though, I highly doubt before Orton was on the Broncos, no one in the world including Orton himself thought he could be this good or even function in a pass heavy offense. Kudos to McDaniels on this...

Meh! Sooner or later Orton will disappoint or break your heart or tease you into thinking and believing that he can win big games for you.

McD had better watch out b/c Orton can prove to be a coach killer as well.

Right now Orton has got to prove he's not a 2-8 QB. Don't worry McD will throw Orton under the bus to save himself.

Tombstone RJ
02-19-2010, 08:25 PM
Seriously, if the guy needs all that work, why even bother?
It is what is is, folks. Believe it!

Wow, you really don't know what the hell your talking about, do you? Building the body is the easiest, simplest no brainer in football. "all that work" ain't all that you bedwetter.

My argument is that Orton can improve what limited physical ability he has by hitting the friggen weight room and all you can do is wet your pants.

It is what is is, folks. Believe it!

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:27 PM
Wow, you really don't know what the hell your talking about, do you? Building the body is the easiest, simplest no brainer in football. "all that work" ain't all that you bedwetter.

My argument is that Orton can improve what limited physical ability he has by hitting the friggen weight room and all you can do is wet your pants.

It is what is is, folks. Believe it!Why are you getting so mad, man?
Relax.
We will find out how well that's going to work, won't we?

Tombstone RJ
02-19-2010, 08:35 PM
Why are you getting so mad, man?
Relax.
We will find out how well that's going to work, won't we?

Golly gee, I dunno, why don't you tell me cause obviously you smarter than me!

rastaman
02-19-2010, 08:37 PM
the majority of that clip showed to me the point i have been trying to make. look at the level of protection that Orton has on those throws. he has time to survey the field, alow routes to develop, go through his reads and then step into the throw. give him protection and he is a really good QB.

Return to zone blocking scheme to better utilize the current talent on the O-line and the Offense should be more consistent. But hey that train left the station when Dennison and Turner left for Washington D.C.

Meanwhile in 2010, McD has another excuse to serve up to the gullible fan base....and that excuse is give him until 2011 and I'll give you a top O-Line.

Another point......in 2010 we may surprisingly realize that Orton maybe interception prone or he'll revert back to his old self by holding on to the ball to long or just throwing the ball away. Last season Orton had at least 6 for sure interceptions dropped by oppossing teams. This would have given Orton 18 interceptions and 21 TD passes. The last game of the season Orton threw 3 interceptions of which two interceptions were returned for TD's.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 08:38 PM
Exactly what I've been saying.
Those guys can improvise. Brees, Manning, Brady and Rivers, they all can. Orton can not. And that's what helps your o-line efficiency. Orton can't do crap to help the o-line. He depends more on the o-line, than the o-line depends on him for help when needed. Can you understand that concept?
He needs a super Oline to make him more efficient.
Orton can't even stay on his feet on his own.
We've had one of the best o-line in football for the last 3 years. We have Orton as our QB and all the sudden the whole o-line it ain't worth a ****.
Give me a freakin' break.
Now, that's astronomically stupid, don't you think?
It takes oner to know one...

bull**** one of the best lines in football the last 3 years. outside of 2008 our line has been average at best. and last season there was an epic collapse on the interior of the line, specifically Hamilton and Weigman.

there is also a major difference between being able to maneuver in the pocket to buy an extra second to get rid of the ball and having to dodge defenders almost the second the ball is snapped.

Orton can slide and move in the pocket to find the open man, but all you interpret happening is the sacks and hits he took because the defenders were on him almost instantly.

also, McDaniels offense is all about quick passes and getting the ball out of the QBs hands quickly, meaning even in an offense where the ball is out of the QBs hands quicker than it had been in Shanahan's offense, show that our line couldn't hold blocks at all this season.

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:41 PM
Golly gee, I dunno, why don't you tell me cause obviously you smarter than me!You're the one insulting me, yet you're the one getting mad! ;)

Tombstone RJ
02-19-2010, 08:42 PM
You're the one insulting me, yet you're the one getting mad! ;)

:yayaya:

strafen
02-19-2010, 08:50 PM
bull**** one of the best lines in football the last 3 years. outside of 2008 our line has been average at best. and last season there was an epic collapse on the interior of the line, specifically Hamilton and Weigman.

there is also a major difference between being able to maneuver in the pocket to buy an extra second to get rid of the ball and having to dodge defenders almost the second the ball is snapped.

Orton can slide and move in the pocket to find the open man, but all you interpret happening is the sacks and hits he took because the defenders were on him almost instantly.

also, McDaniels offense is all about quick passes and getting the ball out of the QBs hands quickly, meaning even in an offense where the ball is out of the QBs hands quicker than it had been in Shanahan's offense, show that our line couldn't hold blocks at all this season.BS?
You just contradicting yourself.
If this offense is what you call getting the ball quick, then Orton did a poor job at it. When you can't release the ball quick, you have to improvise. Not always things are going to work as drawn
When the defense knows your offense is based on dink and dunk passes all they have to do is crowd the line. When that happens the oline finds themselves in a situation where they have more defenders coming at them than they have men to block them. That means exactly what you said I've said, the defenders were there instantly
In essense, after 6 weeks worth of video of the McDaniels offense, it became apparent that the whole NFL had him figured out.
You and everybody else who watched football saw what our offense was all about.
There's not offensive line in football that can sustain that kind of relentless rush at the line of attack when they know what you're going to do.
That not only hurt our passing game, but also put a stop on our running game...

So in conclusion, you need a QB and a RB that have the ability to improvise and make plays out of nothing when things don't work as drawn because you have an offense that prides itself in being methodic and precise.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 08:55 PM
Return to zone blocking scheme to better utilize the current talent on the O-line and the Offense should be more consistent. But hey that train left the station when Dennison and Turner left for Washington D.C.

Meanwhile in 2010, McD has another excuse to serve up to the gullible fan base....and that excuse is give him until 2011 and I'll give you a top O-Line.

Another point......in 2010 we may surprisingly realize that Orton maybe interception prone or he'll revert back to his old self by holding on to the ball to long or just throwing the ball away. Last season Orton had at least 6 for sure interceptions dropped by oppossing teams. This would have given Orton 18 interceptions and 21 TD passes. The last game of the season Orton threw 3 interceptions of which two interceptions were returned for TD's.

no team since Denver in 98 has been to or won a super bowl running the ZBS. sorry, but the ZBS is dead, and outside of the old has beens like Hamilton and Weigman, the rest of our starting line is both young enough, strong enough and has the talent to play in a power scheme.

McDaniels doesn't make excuses. in fact, i will be surprised if he doesn't have the OL performing loads better than this years.

i hate dealing in hypotheticals about if only the defender held onto the ball Orton would have had this many INTs. every QB in the league is like that, and if close calls mattered there would be a stat line for them but they don't count, so who cares? also, another point, in 2010 we may see Orton put in an MVP season and win a super bowl for Denver, see what dealing in hypotheticals does.

Paladin
02-19-2010, 09:27 PM
[QUOTE=BroncoMan4ever;2755769]
McDaniels doesn't make excuses. in fact, i will be surprised if he doesn't have the OL performing loads better than this years.

QUOTE]


He also has a new Oline coach. I agree with BM4.

The MVPlaya
02-19-2010, 11:59 PM
Meh! Sooner or later Orton will disappoint or break your heart or tease you into thinking and believing that he can win big games for you.

McD had better watch out b/c Orton can prove to be a coach killer as well.

Right now Orton has got to prove he's not a 2-8 QB. Don't worry McD will throw Orton under the bus to save himself.

2-8? Really? He only played over a third of the season? Oh and within those 2 - 8 games he pretty much missed 1 game (4 qtrs)...really?

He was 8-8.

It's posts like this that makes me go against the people that are straight HATERS. There's no fairness in the judgment. Total LIE to situations.

I'm not saying Orton can win the big game for us or he can be GREAT at all... get that clear.

strafen
02-20-2010, 12:13 AM
2-8? Really? He only played over a third of the season? Oh and within those 2 - 8 games he pretty much missed 1 game (4 qtrs)...really?

He was 8-8.

It's posts like this that makes me go against the people that are straight HATERS. There's no fairness in the judgment. Total LIE to situations.

I'm not saying Orton can win the big game for us or he can be GREAT at all... get that clear.Come on man.
You like to insult people and question their intelligence and what not, and you can't even interpret what this guy's trying to say because on your own hate, while calling others haters?
I don't care who you are, but that's just too funny right there.

Let me help you understand what rastaman meant to say...
Basically, is whether Orton is a legit 6-0 QB he was at the beginning of the season or is he the 2-8 QB he was at the end of the season.

He's calling on Orton to prove that his 2-8 record at the end was a fluke. That's all he's saying...

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2010, 01:08 AM
Come on man.
You like to insult people and question their intelligence and what not, and you can't even interpret what this guy's trying to say because on your own hate, while calling others haters?
I don't care who you are, but that's just too funny right there.

Let me help you understand what rastaman meant to say...
Basically, is whether Orton is a legit 6-0 QB he was at the beginning of the season or is he the 2-8 QB he was at the end of the season.

He's calling on Orton to prove that his 2-8 record at the end was a fluke. That's all he's saying...

i understand the references to is he the 6-0 QB that began the season or the 2-8 QB that finished the season. i just don't really think that it's applicable, because it isn't like the entire team continued at an extremly high level and only he fell off a cliff and we went 2-8 because of him. the final 10 games the entire team, dropped off and played terribly.

the entire team needs to show, can they be the team that started 6-0 and build on that, or are they in trouble and closer in comparison to the team that finished the season 2-8.

The MVPlaya
02-20-2010, 01:14 AM
Return to zone blocking scheme to better utilize the current talent on the O-line and the Offense should be more consistent. But hey that train left the station when Dennison and Turner left for Washington D.C.

Meanwhile in 2010, McD has another excuse to serve up to the gullible fan base....and that excuse is give him until 2011 and I'll give you a top O-Line.

Another point......in 2010 we may surprisingly realize that Orton maybe interception prone or he'll revert back to his old self by holding on to the ball to long or just throwing the ball away. Last season Orton had at least 6 for sure interceptions dropped by oppossing teams. This would have given Orton 18 interceptions and 21 TD passes. The last game of the season Orton threw 3 interceptions of which two interceptions were returned for TD's.

A gullible fan base?

Compared to other fan bases, the Broncos probably have the least amount of supporting fans to begin with.

Or do you want to talk about Shanny? Don't go there.

strafen
02-20-2010, 01:16 AM
i understand the references to is he the 6-0 QB that began the season or the 2-8 QB that finished the season. i just don't really think that it's applicable, because it isn't like the entire team continued at an extremly high level and only he fell off a cliff and we went 2-8 because of him. the final 10 games the entire team, dropped off and played terribly.

the entire team needs to show, can they be the team that started 6-0 and build on that, or are they in trouble and closer in comparison to the team that finished the season 2-8.I understand.
I'm just clarifying what rastaman meant to say...

broncocalijohn
02-20-2010, 01:16 AM
McDaniels is most interested in how far Kyle can cum and how he can respond to being "pushed" for the benefit of the team.

McOrton (http://tindeck.com/listen/eilu)

Good God! I think only Blart around the Mane cares about that and I would suspect McD doesnt care about Orton's personal off time!

rastaman
02-20-2010, 07:01 PM
2-8? Really? He only played over a third of the season? Oh and within those 2 - 8 games he pretty much missed 1 game (4 qtrs)...really?

He was 8-8.

It's posts like this that makes me go against the people that are straight HATERS. There's no fairness in the judgment. Total LIE to situations.

I'm not saying Orton can win the big game for us or he can be GREAT at all... get that clear.

Look man! I just gave an observation on Orton. I knew going into the 09 season the bar of expect ions was going to be lowered on Kyle by some fans. Just b/c McD says Orton is his guy doesn't mean the fans need to agree whole heartedly with that decision. Now could I be wrong and could Orton prove otherwise that he isn't a stop gap QB? Sure he can. However, Orton has to do just that. Orton was getting all he credit and benefit of doubt during his 6-0 run. Likewise he has received the responsibility of having led the team to a 2-7 finish. Fare or not thats the way the cookie crumbles.