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Bronco Boy
02-17-2010, 10:43 AM
Clausen's jump shifts the mock

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By Mel Kiper
ESPN.com


Jimmy Clausen's experience under center is just one reason his stock is on the rise.

This is the last big NFL draft primer before the scene really shifts for good. That's because with the NFL combine next week, it's not just about those remarkable 40 times, it's about NFL personnel people finding out whether a guy really is who they believe he is. It's amazing how many times NFL personnel folks come away shocked that a player is 5-foot-11, not 6-1, or 230 pounds as opposed to the 248 he'd been listed at. Remember that my Big Board and position group rankings really help in understanding overall draft value.


Some things that stand out in this second mock draft are a jump for quarterback Jimmy Clausen, who I think will emerge strong from the workout and interview process; eight new names; multiple shifts in draft choices and the degree to which defense dominates. Twenty picks fall on that side of the ball.





St. Louis RamsRecord: 1-15
Ndamukong Suh, DT, NebraskaClearly, the Rams need to figure out who will take the snaps, and it'll be interesting to see whether they are overwhelmed by one of the QB options. But unless St. Louis trades down -- which is always difficult given the economics of the draft -- Suh is a safe pick. As I've said before, on film he's maybe the most dominating defensive tackle I've seen. He can help immediately. Oddly, for a player so highly thought of, Suh may be even more versatile than some think.

Detroit LionsRecord: 2-14
Gerald McCoy*, DT, Oklahoma
McCoy or Suh will be a welcome sight for the Lions with the second pick, and McCoy is an extraordinarily good consolation prize for any team unable to get Suh. He's simply not that far behind the former Cornhusker in the eyes of personnel people. McCoy is highly disruptive and an ideal player to use as an attacking defensive tackle in a 4-3 scheme.



Tampa Bay BuccaneersRecord: 3-13
Eric Berry*, S, Tennessee
People will continue to debate the merits of taking a safety so high, but Berry is an exception to any rule. He could be the next to join the class of true difference-makers at the safety position with the likes of Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed (the most frequent comparison) and Bob Sanders. Berry is outstanding in coverage and far more physical than his size would indicate.


Washington RedskinsRecord: 4-12
Jimmy Clausen*, QB, Notre Dame
Clausen will gain momentum after the combine. Once he's fully recovered from his toe surgery, he'll show teams he can make the throws, but there's more to it. His intelligence, competitiveness and toughness will impress personnel people, and his stock will rise. Clausen has under-center experience and was as close to mistake-free as he could be given his surroundings this past season.


Kansas City ChiefsRecord: 4-12
Anthony Davis, OT, Rutgers
Davis has the physical talent to be a Pro Bowl player early in his career, but he's still developing. Still, given a choice, the Chiefs can't pass on his upside, which is as high as any player's in the draft. A potential Walter Jones-like presence, if his development continues. The Chiefs also could move Branden Albert to the right side.

Seattle SeahawksRecord: 5-11
Sam Bradford*, QB, OklahomaThe bottom line on Bradford: This quarterback has 10-point accuracy and could very well have gone ahead of Matthew Stafford as the No. 1 pick last year. He will have a chance to prove to many scouts he's still the elite prospect many believe him to be. It's fair to doubt him, but his talent is unquestionable.

Cleveland BrownsRecord: 5-11
Joe Haden*, CB, FloridaHaden has the chance to be a top-five player at his position very quickly. He also fits an immediate need for Cleveland and is easily the top cornerback on the board, a player it can plug in from day one. A deft cover corner and great tackler, Haden is the total package.

Oakland RaidersRecord: 5-11
Jason Pierre-Paul*, DE, South FloridaLike Anthony Davis, Pierre-Paul has as much upside as any player in the draft. He's still raw by NFL standards but could contribute quickly just based on incredible athleticism. Once his pass-rushing skills are refined, he's a game-changer.

Buffalo BillsRecord: 6-10
Russell Okung, OT, Oklahoma StateThe Bills should race to the podium as the Redskins did last year when Brian Orakpo landed in their laps. Significant need meets fantastic value here, with Okung being able to step in right away and help a weak offensive line.

Denver Broncos (from Chicago)Record: 7-9
Dez Bryant*, WR, Oklahoma StateObviously, a lot depends on whether Brandon Marshall is expected to be back come draft time, but if he isn't, this pick is a winner. You fill the void with the best deep threat in the draft. Bryant has great size and was unstoppable in the Big 12; he's a weapon in the passing game.

Jacksonville JaguarsRecord: 7-9
Derrick Morgan*, DE, Georgia TechIn the first mock, I had Pierre-Paul in this spot, but his rising stock moves him up the board. Morgan certainly hasn't fallen as a prospect and should be snatched up quickly by the pass-rush-deficient Jags. He's as productive and versatile a player as there is in the draft.

Miami DolphinsRecord:7-9
Rolando McClain*, LB, AlabamaA great get for Miami, a team that needs an inside linebacker and could get the best one in the draft after the top 10. I mentioned before that the Dolphins also could go after Bryant if he were to fall to them here, because they also must address their need at wide receiver. Problem is after Bryant, there's a value gap. If McClain and Bryant are gone here, a trade down the board could be considered.

San Francisco 49ersRecord: 8-8
C.J. Spiller, RB, ClemsonIn Spiller, the 49ers can add a player who complements Frank Gore in a way I don't think Glen Coffee can. Spiller is a home run threat and should spell Gore and diversify the offense. He also provides an upgrade in the return game.

Seattle Seahawks (from Denver)Record: 5-11
Everson Griffen*, DE, USCSeattle could use help on its O-line, but Griffen fills a significant need for pass-rush help here. The Seahawks will take a serious value hit if they select an offensive tackle here with Okung and Davis already off the board. Griffen also has a great size-speed combination, ideal on the edge of a 4-3.

New York GiantsRecord: 8-8
Sergio Kindle, OLB, TexasKindle is a need pick for the Giants, who must get stronger in their linebacking corps and could use a little more help with situational pass-rushing than some think. Kindle will need to overcome size issues -- another way of saying he simply could add some bulk to a long (6-4) frame -- but he's proven far sturdier against the run than many who also can rush the passer.

San Francisco 49ers (from Carolina)Record: 8-8
Trent Williams, OT, OklahomaConsidering how good Williams is, even at a position that normally doesn't draw high-to-mid first-round picks, getting him here would be of solid value. Williams could step in immediately at right tackle, and the 49ers would upgrade up front.

Tennessee TitansRecord: 8-8
Carlos Dunlap*, DE, FloridaAt a certain point, even questions surrounding a player's makeup can't overcome the talent, and getting a player like Dunlap at this stage is hard to question. With exceptional size and top-end athleticism for a defensive end, Dunlap should help disrupt opposing passers early in his career.

Pittsburgh SteelersRecord: 9-7
Mike Iupati, G, IdahoIupati was one of the breakout stars at the Senior Bowl. He fits what Pittsburgh likes as an athletic but powerful guard who should help return the Steelers' running game to the upper half of the league. Steve Hutchinson comparisons are legitimate. (Hutchinson went No. 17 overall in the 2001 draft.)

Atlanta FalconsRecord: 9-7
Kyle Wilson, CB, Boise StateWilson is another player who jumped at the Senior Bowl. He's fluid, excellent in coverage and an immediate help on special teams. Wilson had a quiet season, but great cornerbacks often do. He simply wasn't challenged enough. Stock is now back on the rise.

Houston TexansRecord: 9-7
Brian Price*, DT, UCLAOne of the guys who carries over with the same team from the first mock. Price is hidden away a bit in such a deep class of defensive linemen, but he's a disruptive force who uses great leverage. He should help a defense that's really close to being very good.

Cincinnati BengalsRecord: 10-6
Demaryius Thomas, WR, Georgia TechHere's the big riser of the past couple of weeks. Thomas will be red-hot after the workouts get going. He's a big target (6-3, 225 pounds) and a downfield threat. He averaged more than 25 yards per catch and remained productive in a run-based offense based. Carson Palmer needs weapons, and Thomas can be one.

New England PatriotsRecord: 10-6
Brandon Graham, OLB, MichiganIf production were all that mattered, Graham would be long gone by now. He led the FBS in tackles for loss and showed why at the Senior Bowl. Always in the backfield, he's an ideal outside linebacker for the Patriots' system, a terror against both the run and the pass.

Green Bay PackersRecord: 11-5
Bryan Bulaga*, OT, IowaThe more you listen to Green Bay's people, the more you get the sense that keeping Aaron Rodgers upright is a major priority, and it should be, because seeing an MVP-level talent knocked out because of a lack of protection is a sad thought. Bulaga can help immediately, and he has room to grow.

Philadelphia EaglesRecord: 11-5
Taylor Mays, S, USCThe Eagles are looking for that heir to Brian Dawkins, a physical safety who can scare opposing receivers and contribute to the rush defense. Mays has everything you could ask for as a physical package. He had a bad season, and there are legit concerns, but Mays still reeks of top-level NFL athleticism. He just needs to put it together.

Baltimore RavensRecord: 9-7
Arrelious Benn*, WR, IllinoisEvery indication out of Baltimore is that this organization is committed to finding pieces that can help Joe Flacco. If Benn shows scouts he has the necessary speed, everything else is there. He is physical, can run after the catch and can even help in the return game.

Arizona CardinalsRecord: 10-6
Dan Williams, DT, TennesseeI kept Williams here as a solid remedy to fill the Cardinals' second-biggest need. Just a tremendously strong player, starting with exceptional drive from his lower body, Williams is a disruptive force against the run and is a great help to linebackers.

Dallas CowboysRecord: 11-5
Bruce Campbell*, OT, MarylandCowboys fans with bad memories of getting thrashed up front in the playoffs should be thrilled to get a talent like Campbell right here. Campbell should see his stock rise at the combine, where his athleticism will be on display. If the Cowboys are serious about addressing their biggest need, this is the direction they need to go.

San Diego ChargersRecord: 13-3
Terrence Cody, DT, AlabamaAs I explained earlier this week, I expect to see Cody's stock rise because he may be the purest example in this draft of a guy who, limitations aside, specifically fits a scheme. Cody is the prototype block-occupying clogger in a 3-4 scheme. You can question his weight or his versatility, but he can make other players better. Remember, Jamal Williams' injury is a factor here.

New York JetsRecord: 9-7
Devin McCourty, CB, RutgersThe Jets could use some receiving help for Mark Sanchez here as well, but McCourty is a guy whose stock could skyrocket if he runs the way many think he will. The Jets can get exposed when passers throw away from Darrelle Revis, and McCourty could be the answer on the other side.

Minnesota VikingsRecord: 12-4
Maurkice Pouncey, G/C, FloridaThe Vikings could use help on the interior of their offensive line, and Pouncey has a first-round grade as a guard, which makes him an outstanding player. The Vikes did well when they looked to Gainesville in the first round last year.

Indianapolis ColtsRecord: 14-2
Jared Odrick, DT, Penn StateOne of the areas in which Indy could use help is along the interior of its defensive line, and Odrick can help the linebackers run free and be disruptive in his own right. Like Williams at No. 26, a great talent buried a little bit in a deep class of defensive linemen.

New Orleans SaintsRecord: 14-2
Sean Weatherspoon, OLB, MissouriWeatherspoon fits like a glove for the Saints as an outside linebacker in 4-3 system. He has ideal size for the position and is a tackling machine. Weatherspoon has the speed and experience to play inside or out, so adding versatility is also a good value proposition.

* -- Draft-eligible junior/redshirt sophomore

Bronco Boy
02-17-2010, 10:45 AM
He really disagrees with McShay on Clausen. Same old song and dance with Bryant though.

Rohirrim
02-17-2010, 10:49 AM
I knew it would be Bryant before I opened the thread.

LonghornBronco
02-17-2010, 11:17 AM
WOW I really like a lot of these players. I would love to get another 1st.

I hope we can trade down and pick up another 1st or high second.

How good would it be to get Mike Iupati, G, Idaho at 18 and say Dan Williams, DT, Tennessee.

or Brandon Graham, OLB, Michigan and Maurkice Pouncey, G/C, Florida

I think I just might Jiz in my pants

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4

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LonghornBronco
02-17-2010, 11:25 AM
OT; How the **** do you embed a youtube vid?

BroncoMan4ever
02-17-2010, 12:13 PM
OT; How the **** do you embed a youtube vid?

let me help you out, since i am pretty sure i knew where you were going with your post.

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Zoobie
02-17-2010, 12:18 PM
Why is everyone so down on Dez? If Marshall is shipped out, drafting him at ten would be a steal of epic proportions.

Bronco Boy
02-17-2010, 12:28 PM
Why is everyone so down on Dez? If Marshall is shipped out, drafting him at ten would be a steal of epic proportions.

Taking a WR in the first round is generally thought to be a poor decision.

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 12:34 PM
Taking a WR in the first round is generally thought to be a poor decision.

Which makes no sense at all. You evaluate every player from every position individually, and grabbing Bryant at 10 would be a steal of Crabtree proportions. He is a dynamic receiver as well as a return man, if we are without Marshall I believe it's a no brainer. The only other players I believe that would match his value at 10 would be Haden or McClain.

Rohirrim
02-17-2010, 12:37 PM
Why is everyone so down on Dez? If Marshall is shipped out, drafting him at ten would be a steal of epic proportions.

First build the Oline. Then get a QB. Then go looking for receivers. Where the Broncos are at right now, you draft a guy like Dez, he goes zooming down the field, and when he looks around for the ball, he sees the QB on his back. Wasted pick.

Bronco Boy
02-17-2010, 12:51 PM
Which makes no sense at all. You evaluate every player from every position individually, and grabbing Bryant at 10 would be a steal of Crabtree proportions. He is a dynamic receiver as well as a return man, if we are without Marshall I believe it's a no brainer. The only other players I believe that would match his value at 10 would be Haden or McClain.

WR's are the biggest crapshoot in the draft. I'm assuming McD knows this and will draft accordingly. Pro bowl WR's can be drafted in late rounds, or not at all (see Austin, Miles and Welker, Wes).

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 01:00 PM
WR's are the biggest crapshoot in the draft. I'm assuming McD knows this and will draft accordingly. Pro bowl WR's can be drafted in late rounds, or not at all (see Austin, Miles and Welker, Wes).

So can guards, centers, and 3-4 ends. Again i'm failing to see the logic here.

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 01:08 PM
First build the Oline. Then get a QB. Then go looking for receivers. Where the Broncos are at right now, you draft a guy like Dez, he goes zooming down the field, and when he looks around for the ball, he sees the QB on his back. Wasted pick.

That's extremely short sighted. So you'd pass on a top WR because he may not be able to shine in his first season? Meaning hypothetically you'd pass on Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald because you had no one to throw to them RIGHT NOW? The truth is there will be no offensive lineman worth taking at our pick. And by your same thinking what good would a QB do us without Marshall? The QB will look down the field and see Royal getting jammed at the line and who else? Gaffney and Stokley? Laughable.

Bronco Boy
02-17-2010, 01:29 PM
That's extremely short sighted. So you'd pass on a top WR because he may not be able to shine in his first season? Meaning hypothetically you'd pass on Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald because you had no one to throw to them RIGHT NOW? The truth is there will be no offensive lineman worth taking at our pick. And by your same thinking what good would a QB do us without Marshall? The QB will look down the field and see Royal getting jammed at the line and who else? Gaffney and Stokley? Laughable.

You are showing that you realy don't know much about football with your comments. QB's make good WR's, not the other way around.

HILife
02-17-2010, 02:15 PM
I like the pick, but boy, he will be wasted in the Kyle Orton system.

HILife
02-17-2010, 02:21 PM
First build the Oline. Then get a QB. Then go looking for receivers. Where the Broncos are at right now, you draft a guy like Dez, he goes zooming down the field, and when he looks around for the ball, he sees the QB on his back. Wasted pick.

lol

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 03:07 PM
You are showing that you realy don't know much about football with your comments. QB's make good WR's, not the other way around.

I would say the same to you. I'm not saying quarterbacks can't make WRs good, but it is EXTREMELY short sighted to not draft a WR simply because we may or may not have a QB who can get it to him THIS season. And seriously you're going to say that Schaub would do as well as he does without Andre Johnson, Culpepper without Moss(we've all ready seen how that went), Fitzgerald/Boldin didn't resurrect Warner's career? Please dude, get your head straight. If anyone thinks Bradford or Clausen is gonna come in and immediately make an impact without Marshall you're kidding yourself. Great Quarterbacks make receivers better, not all Quarterbacks.

BroncoMan4ever
02-17-2010, 03:07 PM
Why is everyone so down on Dez? If Marshall is shipped out, drafting him at ten would be a steal of epic proportions.

i like Dez, but i don't think he is a major need at this point, even if Marshall is gone. look at Gaffney in the season finale, he had a damn good game and showed he can be a force if given the opportunity. Royal had a down year, learning a new system, injuries and a sophomore slump, i am sure he will bounce back. point i am making, this team looks like it will be geared more towards running the ball. with that in mind build the offensive line up and do just that. if we can run the ball with success, it will open up the passing game. i don't care if we have Cutler, Orton, or anyone else under center, if they have protection and the help of a strong running game, they are going to be successful and look damn good.

Dez helps out in one potential need position, but a guy like Iupati who upgrades the line, upgrades the entire offense, not just 1 position. because with an upgraded line, Orton gets time and protection to find an open man, potentially attempt deeped throws; look at the Washington game, pretty good protection and he took his shots down field when they were there. i know the belief is he can't throw deep, but he can, he just needs the time to find his man and get rid of the ball. he isn't going to force a deep pass, but if it is there he will take a shot at it. also, with an upgraded line we can run the ball and wear down opposing defenses, play clock control and keep opponents offenses off the field.

in terms of bang for your buck and getting all you can out of your number 10 pick you would be foolish to take Bryant over Iupati.

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 03:11 PM
i like Dez, but i don't think he is a major need at this point, even if Marshall is gone. look at Gaffney in the season finale, he had a damn good game and showed he can be a force if given the opportunity. Royal had a down year, learning a new system, injuries and a sophomore slump, i am sure he will bounce back. point i am making, this team looks like it will be geared more towards running the ball. with that in mind build the offensive line up and do just that. if we can run the ball with success, it will open up the passing game. i don't care if we have Cutler, Orton, or anyone else under center, if they have protection and the help of a strong running game, they are going to be successful and look damn good.

Dez helps out in one potential need position, but a guy like Iupati who upgrades the line, upgrades the entire offense, not just 1 position. because with an upgraded line, Orton gets time and protection to find an open man, potentially attempt deeped throws; look at the Washington game, pretty good protection and he took his shots down field when they were there. i know the belief is he can't throw deep, but he can, he just needs the time to find his man and get rid of the ball. he isn't going to force a deep pass, but if it is there he will take a shot at it. also, with an upgraded line we can run the ball and wear down opposing defenses, play clock control and keep opponents offenses off the field.

in terms of bang for your buck and getting all you can out of your number 10 pick you would be foolish to take Bryant over Iupati.

You mean the **** show season finale against KC correct? That's quite a resume Gaffney is building.

Again, you are talking about paying a GUARD top ten money. Interior lineman of all positions can be found in the later rounds, especially in such a deep draft. I'm not saying Dez is the only player we should consider taking, but if you want to get the full value at pick 10 you can't seriously consider a guard and leave players like McClain, Bryant or perhaps even Hayden on the board

Bronco Boy
02-17-2010, 03:48 PM
I would say the same to you. I'm not saying quarterbacks can't make WRs good, but it is EXTREMELY short sighted to not draft a WR simply because we may or may not have a QB who can get it to him THIS season. And seriously you're going to say that Schaub would do as well as he does without Andre Johnson, Culpepper without Moss(we've all ready seen how that went), Fitzgerald/Boldin didn't resurrect Warner's career? Please dude, get your head straight. If anyone thinks Bradford or Clausen is gonna come in and immediately make an impact without Marshall you're kidding yourself. Great Quarterbacks make receivers better, not all Quarterbacks.

So your argument is that if Bradford or Clausen had Marshall they would immediately "make an impact"? Uh, okay buddy. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last sentence because it's not actually even a sentence, but yes great QBs do make WRs better.

orinjkrush
02-17-2010, 04:33 PM
just like shanny thought he could mix up late round rbs and ols
i'm guessing mcpoopy thinks he can mix up late round wrs and qbs

he does seem to like his hogs though (being that he is what 5'2"?)

hmmmm?

BroncoMan4ever
02-17-2010, 06:26 PM
You mean the **** show season finale against KC correct? That's quite a resume Gaffney is building.

Again, you are talking about paying a GUARD top ten money. Interior lineman of all positions can be found in the later rounds, especially in such a deep draft. I'm not saying Dez is the only player we should consider taking, but if you want to get the full value at pick 10 you can't seriously consider a guard and leave players like McClain, Bryant or perhaps even Hayden on the board

14 catches for over 200 yards against anyone is major accomplishment. an average of 15 yards per catch. i don't care who that came against that is still a monster of a game that shows just how good he can be if opportunity it there

i hate that notion that just because a player plays a certain position that he isn't worthy of being picked early.

Iupati is the best guard in the draft class, and is one of the best to come out in recent memory.

also, by your argument, any player at any position can be drafted later in the draft and become successful, what difference does it make what position you draft and when

the league is full of guys who were later rounders, or undrafted guys who came in and made names for themselves.

the biggest thing about a 1st round pick is usually, what player is going to improve this team most? Sure Dez upgrades the receiving corps, but who really cares how supposedly talented our receivers are if our QB is on his back before he can deliver the ball. who cares how talented the receivers are if we can't run the ball? McDaniels offense is set in a style that uses the running game to set up the pass

LG in the draft at 10, is not a pretty pick, but it upgrades the team the most.

i'm not saying we should automatically target Iupati at 10 and disregard any who might fall out of the top 10, or ignore a DL in favor of Iupati. i am simply saying if we took him there i would be ecstatic to get an interior linemen of his calibur in the 1st.

the notion years ago was not to take OT in the 1st round or not early in the 1st round because you can find those guys later in the draft. that notion has changed because the league is now understanding how important good OL are. Now we have teams taking OT number 1 overall. you can't say anymore that certain positions don't deserve to be drafted early. if it is an upgrade and makes your team better regardless of position, take the guy who helps you most.

Rohirrim
02-17-2010, 07:38 PM
That's extremely short sighted. So you'd pass on a top WR because he may not be able to shine in his first season? Meaning hypothetically you'd pass on Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald because you had no one to throw to them RIGHT NOW? The truth is there will be no offensive lineman worth taking at our pick. And by your same thinking what good would a QB do us without Marshall? The QB will look down the field and see Royal getting jammed at the line and who else? Gaffney and Stokley? Laughable.

Laughable? Nice. This draft is the richest in years. Probably the best 1st round I've seen in years. Normally, I would go with BPA. But not in this draft. Take the player that will have the biggest impact on your team. IMO, a great DT like Dan Williams will make the entire LB corps better. A great LG will make the entire running game and passing game better. No offensive lineman worth taking at our spot? How about Bulaga? He would start at LG and probably fill the spot for 12 years. Besides, I also think that WR is the biggest boom and bust position year after year. We just look at the draft differently. No biggie. You go your way and I'll go mine.

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 10:01 PM
14 catches for over 200 yards against anyone is major accomplishment. an average of 15 yards per catch. i don't care who that came against that is still a monster of a game that shows just how good he can be if opportunity it there

i hate that notion that just because a player plays a certain position that he isn't worthy of being picked early.

Iupati is the best guard in the draft class, and is one of the best to come out in recent memory.

also, by your argument, any player at any position can be drafted later in the draft and become successful, what difference does it make what position you draft and when

the league is full of guys who were later rounders, or undrafted guys who came in and made names for themselves.

the biggest thing about a 1st round pick is usually, what player is going to improve this team most? Sure Dez upgrades the receiving corps, but who really cares how supposedly talented our receivers are if our QB is on his back before he can deliver the ball. who cares how talented the receivers are if we can't run the ball? McDaniels offense is set in a style that uses the running game to set up the pass

LG in the draft at 10, is not a pretty pick, but it upgrades the team the most.

i'm not saying we should automatically target Iupati at 10 and disregard any who might fall out of the top 10, or ignore a DL in favor of Iupati. i am simply saying if we took him there i would be ecstatic to get an interior linemen of his calibur in the 1st.

the notion years ago was not to take OT in the 1st round or not early in the 1st round because you can find those guys later in the draft. that notion has changed because the league is now understanding how important good OL are. Now we have teams taking OT number 1 overall. you can't say anymore that certain positions don't deserve to be drafted early. if it is an upgrade and makes your team better regardless of position, take the guy who helps you most.

I'm not saying its out of the realm of possibility to take an offensive lineman at 10 completely, i'm saying taking one out of NEED is not the way to go. When you draft for need you potentially leave more talent on the board for other teams(potentially conference, or division teams) to have. My position is this, if Bryant, McClain, or say Haden are still on the board I think the value is better to take them than grabbing a guard at ten because we "need" one. I believe the talent is plenty deep(and easier to acquire in general) at interior line, that's it.

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 10:04 PM
So your argument is that if Bradford or Clausen had Marshall they would immediately "make an impact"? Uh, okay buddy. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last sentence because it's not actually even a sentence, but yes great QBs do make WRs better.

There are very few great quarterbacks in the league, so it's not some automatic occurance like you seem to think.

Bradford or Clausen would have a much better chance to make an immediate impact with Marshall, than without him, buddy.

Zoobie
02-17-2010, 10:09 PM
Laughable? Nice. This draft is the richest in years. Probably the best 1st round I've seen in years. Normally, I would go with BPA. But not in this draft. Take the player that will have the biggest impact on your team. IMO, a great DT like Dan Williams will make the entire LB corps better. A great LG will make the entire running game and passing game better. No offensive lineman worth taking at our spot? How about Bulaga? He would start at LG and probably fill the spot for 12 years. Besides, I also think that WR is the biggest boom and bust position year after year. We just look at the draft differently. No biggie. You go your way and I'll go mine.

Agreed, everyone has different philosophies on drafting. I don't dispute Bulaga's talent, but again I believe taking a tackle, moving him to guard, all the while paying him top ten money is a poor decision. Also, I never said this draft is not deep, in fact i've been echoing that sentiment. Dan Williams is a player I like, and I believe NT is a big need going into the offseason. My only reservation with taking him is I don't believe he is worthy of a top ten draft selection(opinion, of course). I believe he is a player that can be had in the late teens or early twenties. If we did not feel comfortable with the value at ten I would have no problem with us trading down and nabbing Williams later in the round, all the while adding more picks.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 06:05 AM
You are showing that you realy don't know much about football with your comments. QB's make good WR's, not the other way around.
Yeah, because Culpepper definitely made Moss, right?

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 06:41 AM
Yeah, because Culpepper definitely made Moss, right?

That's not really a fair comparison, Culpepper was a shell of his former self when moss left MN. How did Moss do in Oakland where he didn't have a good QB?

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 07:19 AM
That's not really a fair comparison, Culpepper was a shell of his former self when moss left MN. How did Moss do in Oakland where he didn't have a good QB?

Moss made Culpepper, period. Your argument is stupid. All great players make teammates better. Saying only QBs do that is ridiculous.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 07:23 AM
Moss made Culpepper, period. Your argument is stupid. All great players make teammates better. Saying only QBs do that is ridiculous.

My argument is stupid, yet all you can say is "Moss made Culpepper"? How about providing some facts to back up that claim? Also, you are twisting my words, I never said only QBs make teamates better.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 07:28 AM
My argument is stupid, yet all you can say is "Moss made Culpepper"? How about providing some facts to back up that claim? Also, you are twisting my words, I never said only QBs make teamates better.
Here's a fact for you. Culpepper was one of the most prolific passers in the history of the NFL with Moss. As soon as Moss left, Culpepper died.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 07:30 AM
Here's a fact for you. Culpepper was one of the most prolific passers in the history of the NFL with Moss. As soon as Moss left, Culpepper died.

I don't think you really know what a fact is. Culpepper is not dead as far as I know. Are you trying to say that the departure of Moss tore 3 of the 4 major ligaments in Culpepper's knee?

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 07:49 AM
I don't think you really know what a fact is. Culpepper is not dead as far as I know. Are you trying to say that the departure of Moss tore 3 of the 4 major ligaments in Culpepper's knee?

Are you trying to say that Culpepper wasn't worthless for the 7 games he started without Moss in MN?

6 TDs vs. 12 INTs in 7 games without Moss. FACT

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 07:56 AM
Are you trying to say that Culpepper wasn't worthless for the 7 games he started without Moss in MN?

6 TDs vs. 12 INTs in 7 games without Moss. FACT

Yes, but Culpepper also put up those stats without RG David Dixon. So, by your logic, David Dixon made Culpepper. Period.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 08:07 AM
Agreed, everyone has different philosophies on drafting. I don't dispute Bulaga's talent, but again I believe taking a tackle, moving him to guard, all the while paying him top ten money is a poor decision. Also, I never said this draft is not deep, in fact i've been echoing that sentiment. Dan Williams is a player I like, and I believe NT is a big need going into the offseason. My only reservation with taking him is I don't believe he is worthy of a top ten draft selection(opinion, of course). I believe he is a player that can be had in the late teens or early twenties. If we did not feel comfortable with the value at ten I would have no problem with us trading down and nabbing Williams later in the round, all the while adding more picks.

IMO, if you draft a guy like Bulaga (who can play pretty much any position on the line), and you draft him in the first round using a top ten pick, and he then cements the LG position on your team for more than a decade, that was a very good use of that pick. Look at Faneca and Mankins. What have they done for their teams? Judging by Faneca's last contract, there are football people out there who are starting to highly prize a dominating LG. I know the WR position is more flashy and attractive to most people, but the lines are where the games are won and lost, not out there running around on the grass.

PRBronco
02-18-2010, 08:07 AM
Yes, but Culpepper also put up those stats without RG David Dixon. So, by your logic, David Dixon made Culpepper. Period.

Hey don't forget, we're the team that went 6-0 because of a ****ty punter ROFL!

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 08:08 AM
Yes, but Culpepper also put up those stats without RG David Dixon. So, by your logic, David Dixon made Culpepper. Period.
Whatever. A WR can have just as much impact as a QB.

Your "Don't draft a WR take is just flawed.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 08:11 AM
Whatever. A WR can have just as much impact as a QB.

Your "Don't draft a WR take is just flawed.

"Whatever" is not a valid argument and again you are twisting my words, I never said that you shouldn't draft a WR. It's just not very smart to do it in the first round, unless it's towards the back end and you are already a playoff team. In that case it can give you the extra something to make it to the big game.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 08:22 AM
"Whatever" is not a valid argument and again you are twisting my words, I never said that you shouldn't draft a WR. It's just not very smart to do it in the first round, unless it's towards the back end and you are already a playoff team. In that case it can give you the extra something to make it to the big game.

It's just as valid as blaming a 40-point drop in QB rating on a RG.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 08:24 AM
"Whatever" is not a valid argument and again you are twisting my words, I never said that you shouldn't draft a WR. It's just not very smart to do it in the first round, unless it's towards the back end and you are already a playoff team. In that case it can give you the extra something to make it to the big game.

I agree. Drafting a WR with a high pick is something a team should do when they have the foundation already in place to make a run for the playoffs.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 08:27 AM
I agree. Drafting a WR with a high pick is something a team should do when they have the foundation already in place to make a run for the playoffs.

I think that changes when you have a couple of 1st rounders, which we will have if we're even considering a WR.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 08:41 AM
It's just as valid as blaming a 40-point drop in QB rating on a RG.

It makes more sense than saying that a career-threatening injury that rendered a QB ineffective is soley due to the departure of a WR. I wasn't blaming Dixon entirely for Culpepper's stuggles in 2005, but he was certainly a factor, as was Moss and a number of other players as well.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 08:59 AM
It makes more sense than saying that a career-threatening injury that rendered a QB ineffective is soley due to the departure of a WR. I wasn't blaming Dixon entirely for Culpepper's stuggles in 2005, but he was certainly a factor, as was Moss and a number of other players as well.

Did you listen to anything I said. The 40 point drop came before the injury.

AHH, the phantom "A number of other players" take. Nice.

Your take was short sighted, man up and admit it.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 09:08 AM
Did you listen to anything I said. The 40 point drop came before the injury.

AHH, the phantom "A number of other players" take. Nice.

Your take was short sighted, man up and admit it.

Yes, but David Dixon was not around to protect Culpepper so he wasn't afforded as much time as he had in 2004. Besides, 6 games is an extremely small sample size in which to judge a QB. I don't know how to respond to the rest of your comment because you are just speaking in cliches.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 09:33 AM
Yes, but David Dixon was not around to protect Culpepper so he wasn't afforded as much time as he had in 2004. Besides, 6 games is an extremely small sample size in which to judge a QB. I don't know how to respond to the rest of your comment because you are just speaking in cliches.
Gross generalities like "a WR in the first is a bad idea" are always a short-sighted take.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 09:39 AM
Gross generalities like "a WR in the first is a bad idea" is always a short-sighted take.

That's why I said "generally" it is a bad idea, which you would see if you did any meaningful research into the success of high 1st round WR picks vs. other positions.

Dedhed
02-18-2010, 09:59 AM
That's why I said "generally" it is a bad idea, which you would see if you did any meaningful research into the success of high 1st round WR picks vs. other positions.
Yet another fallacy. First round DTs bust out all the time. George Foster ring any bells?

The truth is, any player can be a hit or a miss, and generalities about the draft make people look foolish all the time.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 10:13 AM
Yet another fallacy. First round DTs bust out all the time. George Foster ring any bells?

The truth is, any player can be a hit or a miss, and generalities about the draft make people look foolish all the time.

What the hell are you talking about? Last time I checked George Foster was neither a high first round pick nor was he a DT. Keep grasping at straws dude.

Dagmar
02-18-2010, 11:26 AM
First build the Oline. Then get a QB. Then go looking for receivers. Where the Broncos are at right now, you draft a guy like Dez, he goes zooming down the field, and when he looks around for the ball, he sees the QB on his back. Wasted pick.

^5

:notworthy

I cannot agree with this sentiment more. We need both lines to be improved. Thank god McD has implied that is going to happen.

Zoobie
02-18-2010, 12:40 PM
^5

:notworthy

I cannot agree with this sentiment more. We need both lines to be improved. Thank god McD has implied that is going to happen.

I agree wholeheartedly . However people are making it seem like we have to draft them in that exact order( o line in the 1st, d line in the 2nd,etc) which is stupid.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 12:47 PM
I agree wholeheartedly . However people are making it seem like we have to draft them in that exact order( o line in the 1st, d line in the 2nd,etc) which is stupid.

I didn't mean to imply that. I'm just hoping that the predominant focus of this draft is the Broncos' lines. I am saying that if it was up to me and I had to pick between Dez, Dan Williams or Bulaga, I wouldn't take Dez.

Zoobie
02-18-2010, 12:49 PM
I didn't mean to imply that. I'm just hoping that the predominant focus of this draft is the Broncos' lines. I am saying that if it was up to me and I had to pick between Dez, Dan Williams or Bulaga, I wouldn't take Dez.

Okay good, that's all i've been trying to get across. And, if it was up to me we would take Dez haha.

Zoobie
02-18-2010, 01:01 PM
"Whatever" is not a valid argument and again you are twisting my words, I never said that you shouldn't draft a WR. It's just not very smart to do it in the first round, unless it's towards the back end and you are already a playoff team. In that case it can give you the extra something to make it to the big game.


What I am saying is it is foolish to neglect one position because in the past there have been many busts at WR. There have been just as many busts at QB, RB, DE, and DT. You evaluate every draft and every player individually. I don't see the logic that you just draft recievers if you are all ready a playoff team or it's toward the end of the 1st round. My opinion is that the value Dez brings is worthy of a top ten pick, just like it was the general concensus that Crabtree was a steal at 11(or whatever pick it was) last year, value-wise. Of course we don't know how his career will play out but at the time of the draft the Niners got a hell of a player that slipped quite a bit farther than expected.

WRs can make a QB, and a team as a whole, better. Schaub and the Texans are nowhere near what they've been offensively without Andre, ditto for the Cards without Fitz(and perhaps even Boldin), the Lions without Calvin Johnson, etc... Yes, you have to put the whole team together(for the most part) to become a perrenial playoff contender. Having said that, you don't ignore certain pieces because they may not fill what appears to be the team's most immediate need, you add them because it's what helps long term. Thus, ignoring a talent at a certain position is SHORT SIGHTED, and so is drafting based on NEED. Without Marshall on the team last year, our offense(and team in general) would have not been able to stay in games. If we lose Brandon, I believe the value is there to take Bryant who fits the mold as an explosive playmaker, number one reciever, as well as a returner on special teams. Are there other options at 10? Of course, i'm just voicing my opinion, and neglecting Bryant because he's a WR is beyond ridiculous. I am for drafting Bryant at ten, and assessing the value of interior linemane at our next pick because I believe Dez far outweighs any lineman's value at our first pick.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 01:13 PM
What I am saying is it is foolish to neglect one position because in the past there have been many busts at WR. There have been just as many busts at QB, RB, DE, and DT. You evaluate every draft and every player individually. I don't see the logic that you just draft recievers if you are all ready a playoff team or it's toward the end of the 1st round. My opinion is that the value Dez brings is worthy of a top ten pick, just like it was the general concensus that Crabtree was a steal at 11(or whatever pick it was) last year, value-wise. Of course we don't know how his career will play out but at the time of the draft the Niners got a hell of a player that slipped quite a bit farther than expected.

WRs can make a QB, and a team as a whole, better. Schaub and the Texans are nowhere near what they've been offensively without Andre, ditto for the Cards without Fitz(and perhaps even Boldin), the Lions without Calvin Johnson, etc... Yes, you have to put the whole team together(for the most part) to become a perrenial playoff contender. Having said that, you don't ignore certain pieces because they may not fill what appears to be the team's most immediate need, you add them because it's what helps long term. Thus, ignoring a talent at a certain position is SHORT SIGHTED, and so is drafting based on NEED. Without Marshall on the team last year, our offense(and team in general) would have not been able to stay in games. If we lose Brandon, I believe the value is there to take Bryant who fits the mold as an explosive playmaker, number one reciever, as well as a returner on special teams. Are there other options at 10? Of course, i'm just voicing my opinion, and neglecting Bryant because he's a WR is beyond ridiculous. I am for drafting Bryant at ten, and assessing the value of interior linemane at our next pick because I believe Dez far outweighs any lineman's value at our first pick.


Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, there are certainly former GM's and coaches that feel the way you do I am sure. Your logic actually sounds a lot like Al Davis's, and he's not without his successes.

cmhargrove
02-18-2010, 01:59 PM
Remember a year or so ago when everyone around here would have given their left nut for Taylor Mays? It's interesting how things change...

gyldenlove
02-18-2010, 04:04 PM
Remember a year or so ago when everyone around here would have given their left nut for Taylor Mays? It's interesting how things change...


It was much the same 2 years ago with James Laurinaitis and Rey Maualuga and I remember a lot of drooling in 2005 over Matt Leinart.

There are always some players who look very promising but when subjected to intense scrutiny their flaws get uncovered and suddenly they are not so hot.

Mays is certainly a guy who has a ton of promise and talent, but his flaws and short comings are pretty severe and I think a lot of people are afraid that he is going to be Roy Williams part 2 - great for highlight reels, but not so great for super bowl aspirations.

Rohirrim
02-18-2010, 04:28 PM
I think Mays will still go high after he measures out at the combine. Some team will not be able to pass on that combo of speed and size. I've watched a lot of USC games. Mays will make a big Ahhhh! hit every once in a while, but he's no Polamalu. There are long stretches where you don't hear anything from him.

Mediator12
02-18-2010, 06:47 PM
It was much the same 2 years ago with James Laurinaitis and Rey Maualuga and I remember a lot of drooling in 2005 over Matt Leinart.

There are always some players who look very promising but when subjected to intense scrutiny their flaws get uncovered and suddenly they are not so hot.

Mays is certainly a guy who has a ton of promise and talent, but his flaws and short comings are pretty severe and I think a lot of people are afraid that he is going to be Roy Williams part 2 - great for highlight reels, but not so great for super bowl aspirations.

Never liked any of those guys, for the same reasons I do not like a lot of college players. They are great college players who do not fit what the NFL does at their positions of impact. There are players in college who will be better in the pros (think Darelle Revis), but there are a lot more who simply dominate because of atleticism, scheme, and personnel where they played in college. Those guys all benefitted from one or more of those things that make their NFL careers look less special than their college ones.

The thing with Mays is he has never been a playmaker, in a system that was completely designed for playmakers. He totally fits the Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane Cliche. In fact, that totally applies to him. I really think he could be "coached up" in the NFL, but not at the current cost of drafting him would I touch him. Eric Berry is just a much better option risk wise.

Mediator12
02-18-2010, 06:50 PM
I think Mays will still go high after he measures out at the combine. Some team will not be able to pass on that combo of speed and size. I've watched a lot of USC games. Mays will make a big Ahhhh! hit every once in a while, but he's no Polamalu. There are long stretches where you don't hear anything from him.

Playmaker.

This is why Mays is not where he was a year ago. All the LB talent made the plays and general fans did not notice it until it was gone this year. If he simply made the plays that are there on the film to make, he would be a legit top 5 safety with his athleticism and range.

Mediator12
02-18-2010, 06:59 PM
BTW, what is up with all the draft philosophy arguments in here? Dez is a top 5 talent in this draft, but will someone pay him that way and take him that early with all the other talent at the top of this draft. That is the real question.

For me, it all depends on how the Teams rank their boards. Dez will drop 5-10 spots on some peoples boards based on off the field behavior. That is a fact. However, one of the WR needy teams will be willing to take that risk on a serious talent. BAL, MIA, Or NYJ could make a play for him if he is still available at DEN's spot. He might actually have the best value for DEN as Trade Bait in a bidding war.

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm not saying its out of the realm of possibility to take an offensive lineman at 10 completely, i'm saying taking one out of NEED is not the way to go. When you draft for need you potentially leave more talent on the board for other teams(potentially conference, or division teams) to have. My position is this, if Bryant, McClain, or say Haden are still on the board I think the value is better to take them than grabbing a guard at ten because we "need" one. I believe the talent is plenty deep(and easier to acquire in general) at interior line, that's it.

i understand the premise of drafting a guy so a rival doesn't get him. but in the case of Iupati, not only does he fill a need, but in terms of talent he will probably be the best remaining player in the draft, and while those guys are an upgrade to their position, a smart pick that fixes the offensive line helps the entire team.

if the OL is dominant, we can run the ball and eat up clock, wear out opposing defenses and set up the passing game, which if Orton isn't in a position where he is on his back almost every time he drops back, he gets to read the field take shots down the field, find his best option, and take the next step in his development.

it may not be the prettiest pick and many will be pissed about it, but it is the pick that would make the biggest improvement to the team.


but you are right with the depth of this draft class. as much as I would like Iupati at 10, I would prefer Dan Williams. a NT who needs to be double teamed opens things up for our ends and LBs.

Zoobie
02-18-2010, 07:38 PM
i understand the premise of drafting a guy so a rival doesn't get him. but in the case of Iupati, not only does he fill a need, but in terms of talent he will probably be the best remaining player in the draft, and while those guys are an upgrade to their position, a smart pick that fixes the offensive line helps the entire team.

if the OL is dominant, we can run the ball and eat up clock, wear out opposing defenses and set up the passing game, which if Orton isn't in a position where he is on his back almost every time he drops back, he gets to read the field take shots down the field, find his best option, and take the next step in his development.

it may not be the prettiest pick and many will be pissed about it, but it is the pick that would make the biggest improvement to the team.

but you are right with the depth of this draft class. as much as I would like Iupati at 10, I would prefer Dan Williams. a NT who needs to be double teamed opens things up for our ends and LBs.


Trust me when I say i'm not at all concerned with making pretty picks. I think offensive line is a big concern(perhaps only because McDaneils decided to switch up the blocking scheme) for this team. Having said that we have Clady, Harris, and Kuper who I believe are very bright young talents. My big thing is value, and the only reason my view differs from you is that I believe Bryant offers the most value at pick ten.

Zoobie
02-18-2010, 07:40 PM
Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, there are certainly former GM's and coaches that feel the way you do I am sure. Your logic actually sounds a lot like Al Davis's, and he's not without his successes.

Al Davis? No, he drafts freak physical prospects and out of lunacy. Matching the best value to your pick(regardless of position) is not some foreign concept that retards gravitate to. Why you think this is such an out of this world concept is beyond me, in fact i'd be surprised if many front offices didn't feel this same way. As opposed to drafting for needs and reaching to get who you think you "need".

gunns
02-18-2010, 07:43 PM
WR's are the biggest crapshoot in the draft. I'm assuming McD knows this and will draft accordingly. Pro bowl WR's can be drafted in late rounds, or not at all (see Austin, Miles and Welker, Wes).

:thumbsup:

gunns
02-18-2010, 08:02 PM
What I am saying is it is foolish to neglect one position because in the past there have been many busts at WR. There have been just as many busts at QB, RB, DE, and DT.

I don't think the Broncos would neglect the position. Take a look at first round WR picks over the last 20 years. Depressing. Then look at players like Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Rod Smith. Any draft pick is a crap shoot but WR, to me, isn't a position that has to be taken early to get quality.

Paladin
02-18-2010, 08:23 PM
Just get the linemen. The rest will come.

27atwater
02-18-2010, 08:30 PM
I'm all for addressing the trenches, but I also think that getting a WR in round 1 doesn't = failing to fix the lines.

I think the idea that 1st round WRs are risky picks is a bit misleading. Historically, the ELITE, STUD, SURE THING WRs have faired quite well. There are exceptions like Mike Williams and Charles Rogers (both Lions), but than you have to consider Moss, Fitz, Calvin, Andre, Crabtree, Roy Williams, etc. Now the key here is having that elite talent available. It's easy to say 1st round WRs are busts when guys like Matt Jones, Reggie Williams, Troy Williamson, etc are being reached on or skyrocket up the boards due to their combine performances. But I will always argue that if you look solely at those elite guys, the risk is quite minimal. Dez Bryant fits into that mold.

That being said, I do agree that DL and OG are more pressing needs.

gunns
02-18-2010, 08:35 PM
I'm all for addressing the trenches, but I also think that getting a WR in round 1 doesn't = failing to fix the lines.

I think the idea that 1st round WRs are risky picks is a bit misleading. Historically, the ELITE, STUD, SURE THING WRs have faired quite well. There are exceptions like Mike Williams and Charles Rogers (both Lions), but than you have to consider Moss, Fitz, Calvin, Andre, Crabtree, Roy Williams, etc. Now the key here is having that elite talent available. It's easy to say 1st round WRs are busts when guys like Matt Jones, Reggie Williams, Troy Williamson, etc are being reached on or skyrocket up the boards due to their combine performances. But I will always argue that if you look solely at those elite guys, the risk is quite minimal. Dez Bryant fits into that mold.

That being said, I do agree that DL and OG are more pressing needs.

Roy Williams? He's elite? Then we definitely don't need a 1st rounder. Crabtree is not elite, yet. You have named almost all of the 1st rounders over the last 20 years that become elite game changers, except Wayne and Holt. That's it. Out of 70 first round WR, that's it. The risk is huge to me for what they do for a team.

NFLBRONCO
02-18-2010, 08:42 PM
While I agree WR is tough to hit the mark. DL too is every bit as hard to hit the mark. I'd rather us take a shot at Dez/DL then be afraid to draft positions because of failure rates as resort to lesser needs like TE or CB. I think you do need to put more effort in trying to upgrade WR DL OL on day 1. Its better then avoiding the positions all together we saw how that pans out.

27atwater
02-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Roy Williams? He's elite? Then we definitely don't need a 1st rounder. Crabtree is not elite, yet. You have named almost all of the 1st rounders over the last 20 years that become elite game changers, except Wayne and Holt. That's it. Out of 70 first round WR, that's it. The risk is huge to me for what they do for a team.

First off, Roy was a badass WR for a crap team until he got hurt.

And you are missing the point. Perhaps I should have called them elite PROSPECTS. I already said that the average WR prospect is a risk. That point I clearly concede. But it's also not what I'm trying to say. It's NOT THE ELITE PROSPECTS who have a high failure rate. You know, those guys projected to go top 5 or 10. Not the Meachems or Holmes' (who could still end up being pretty good) or the Rashuan Woods' and Reggie Williams' of the world. The top tier college kids. The "can't miss" guys. THEY rarely miss. And I believe Dez to be in that class.

And as much as I know we have DLIne needs, DTs are usually the biggest bust potential.

Bronco Boy
02-18-2010, 09:45 PM
First off, Roy was a badass WR for a crap team until he got hurt.

And you are missing the point. Perhaps I should have called them elite PROSPECTS. I already said that the average WR prospect is a risk. That point I clearly concede. But it's also not what I'm trying to say. It's NOT THE ELITE PROSPECTS who have a high failure rate. You know, those guys projected to go top 5 or 10. Not the Meachems or Holmes' (who could still end up being pretty good) or the Rashuan Woods' and Reggie Williams' of the world. The top tier college kids. The "can't miss" guys. THEY rarely miss. And I believe Dez to be in that class.

And as much as I know we have DLIne needs, DTs are usually the biggest bust potential.

Are you serious? Just look at the WR's taken in the top 10 since 2000. The success rate is extremely low compared to other positions.

NFLBRONCO
02-18-2010, 11:15 PM
Hard to tell how the top 9 or 10 picks will fall when we are on the clock but, unless a QB falls we might be better off moving down. I'm not sure the OL or DT position will be worth taking either with 11th pick. DE might have guys but, Morgan is the only one worthy of 11th pick.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 02:40 AM
Trust me when I say i'm not at all concerned with making pretty picks. I think offensive line is a big concern(perhaps only because McDaneils decided to switch up the blocking scheme) for this team. Having said that we have Clady, Harris, and Kuper who I believe are very bright young talents. My big thing is value, and the only reason my view differs from you is that I believe Bryant offers the most value at pick ten.

right now of the potential guys who would be available at 10, i don't even think Bryant is top 3 in terms of value. I think of value as bang for your buck. 10 overall is going to get some major coin and i would take McClain, Iupati, Williams, and possibly Everson Griffin before Bryant.

i have always been of the belief that the lines are the most important part of a team and if it comes down to choosing a great skill position player or a great lineman, i will always take the lineman.

Bronco Boy
02-19-2010, 05:42 AM
Hard to tell how the top 9 or 10 picks will fall when we are on the clock but, unless a QB falls we might be better off moving down. I'm not sure the OL or DT position will be worth taking either with 11th pick. DE might have guys but, Morgan is the only one worthy of 11th pick.

I agree, 10/11 is looking like a good spot in this draft to be able to trade down since there should be some good players that fall to that spot.

Zoobie
02-19-2010, 04:33 PM
right now of the potential guys who would be available at 10, i don't even think Bryant is top 3 in terms of value. I think of value as bang for your buck. 10 overall is going to get some major coin and i would take McClain, Iupati, Williams, and possibly Everson Griffin before Bryant.

i have always been of the belief that the lines are the most important part of a team and if it comes down to choosing a great skill position player or a great lineman, i will always take the lineman.

What is it you specifically don't like about Dez?

I agree the value is there for McClain, not Iupati. Williams I think is a reach, he just is not worthy of a top ten pick. And Griffen? Pleaseeee, he is soft. He is by no means worth it, not to mention his off the field track record and the fact that he would be played at end in our 3-4. To me, Everson should be going to a 4-3 team, and nowhere near the top ten.

The last time a guard was taken in the top 10? 1997. If we are set on taking Iupati, it only makes sense to trade down at least to the mid teens.

Dagmar
02-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Just get the linemen. The rest will come.

:thumbsup:

Zoobie
02-19-2010, 04:49 PM
:thumbsup:

Again, it's not as though i'm against getting a Left Guard, but at pick ten is a bit ridiculous. Last time that happened, 1997.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 06:07 PM
What is it you specifically don't like about Dez?

I agree the value is there for McClain, not Iupati. Williams I think is a reach, he just is not worthy of a top ten pick. And Griffen? Pleaseeee, he is soft. He is by no means worth it, not to mention his off the field track record and the fact that he would be played at end in our 3-4. To me, Everson should be going to a 4-3 team, and nowhere near the top ten.

The last time a guard was taken in the top 10? 1997. If we are set on taking Iupati, it only makes sense to trade down at least to the mid teens.

i just get that Mike Williams vibe from him. i hate the idea that he has basically been out of football now for like 6 months. as a younger player, i don't trust the maturity level and have that feeling he will bust.

i don't really care when the last time a guard was taken top 10. if he can elevate the team, pick him up regardless of the pick. hell the Raiders drafted Janikowski in the 1st round in 2000. that is extremely early for a kicker, but look at the guy, a decade later, still one of the best in the league, more than likely is going to kick for another 5-10 years and will be with Oakland all of those years. if you can get a guy who you can plug into the lineup who will be elite at his position for the next 10-12 years, do it, regardless of the position they play.

PRBronco
02-19-2010, 07:03 PM
Again, it's not as though i'm against getting a Left Guard, but at pick ten is a bit ridiculous. Last time that happened, 1997.

Could be worse, could have taken one 2nd overall like the Raiders :giggle:

Zoobie
02-19-2010, 08:31 PM
i just get that Mike Williams vibe from him. i hate the idea that he has basically been out of football now for like 6 months. as a younger player, i don't trust the maturity level and have that feeling he will bust.

i don't really care when the last time a guard was taken top 10. if he can elevate the team, pick him up regardless of the pick. hell the Raiders drafted Janikowski in the 1st round in 2000. that is extremely early for a kicker, but look at the guy, a decade later, still one of the best in the league, more than likely is going to kick for another 5-10 years and will be with Oakland all of those years. if you can get a guy who you can plug into the lineup who will be elite at his position for the next 10-12 years, do it, regardless of the position they play.

I agree with what you're saying, I just don't see the value there. I'll take anything to improve this team, regardless of position. Hell if we could get Haden i'd be estatic, sure we have Champ, Andre, and Alphonso, but the more talent the better.

NFLBRONCO
02-19-2010, 08:34 PM
I agree with what you're saying, I just don't see the value there. I'll take anything to improve this team, regardless of position. Hell if we could get Haden i'd be estatic, sure we have Champ, Andre, and Alphonso, but the more talent the better.

My fear is Spiller will be available and make me wish Moreno wasn't taken last year. Spiller is faster something we need.

Zoobie
02-19-2010, 08:39 PM
My fear is Spiller will be available and make me wish Moreno wasn't taken last year. Spiller is faster something we need.

Again, i'm not even against that. Look at the Titans, they took Chris Henry, Lendale White and then still took Johnson. Granted Henry and White were second rounders, but you don't ignore talent at any position.

BroncoMan4ever
02-19-2010, 08:58 PM
My fear is Spiller will be available and make me wish Moreno wasn't taken last year. Spiller is faster something we need.

if we are taking another RB in this draft, i don't want another small scat back type. i want size and power. Anthony Dixon or Blount.

get bigger and stronger on the lines and then get a bull to pound the rock on short yardage and goal line situations.

NFLBRONCO
02-19-2010, 10:01 PM
I'm I the only one that thinks Denver's O lacks big time speed. I'm all for adding power to lines but, I'd also like to add another RB with more speed as well as a WR with gamebreaking ability.

Zoobie
02-19-2010, 10:16 PM
I'm I the only one that thinks Denver's O lacks big time speed. I'm all for adding power to lines but, I'd also like to add another RB with more speed as well as a WR with gamebreaking ability.

Agreed, if Marshall goes. Without Brandon we have a severe lack of playmakers on this team. Potentially Eddie, and with some help Moreno as well.

NFLBRONCO
02-19-2010, 10:57 PM
Agreed, if Marshall goes. Without Brandon we have a severe lack of playmakers on this team. Potentially Eddie, and with some help Moreno as well.

I don't consider BM or Moreno gamebreakers. We lost to KC because of speed RB we would have won that game if they had Moreno not Charles.

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2010, 12:02 AM
I'm I the only one that thinks Denver's O lacks big time speed. I'm all for adding power to lines but, I'd also like to add another RB with more speed as well as a WR with gamebreaking ability.

i am all for adding some more speed to the offense, but with a RB, if he can't handle 20 carries a game, regardles of whether he gets that amount of carries or not i don't want to use a 1st round pick on him.

at best Spiller might become Chris Johnson Light, but the most likely scenario is he ends up as a Tatum Bell

27atwater
02-20-2010, 10:04 AM
Are you serious? Just look at the WR's taken in the top 10 since 2000. The success rate is extremely low compared to other positions.

Please provide examples oputisde of Charles Rogers. And Heyward-Bey doesn't count for obvious reasons. Crabtree was clearly the more hyped WR last year.

Bronco Boy
02-20-2010, 10:48 AM
Please provide examples oputisde of Charles Rogers. And Heyward-Bey doesn't count for obvious reasons. Crabtree was clearly the more hyped WR last year.

Peter Warrick, Plaxico Burress(debatable bust), Travis Taylor, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Reggie Williams, Braylon Edwards (debatable bust), Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers

Jury's still out on Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Crabtree, and Heyward Bey.

Is that list long enough for you?

Dedhed
02-20-2010, 02:22 PM
Peter Warrick, Plaxico Burress(debatable bust), Travis Taylor, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Reggie Williams, Braylon Edwards (debatable bust), Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers

Jury's still out on Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Crabtree, and Heyward Bey.

Is that list long enough for you?
Tim Couch, Jim Drunkenmiller, Dave Brown, Akili Smith, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Schuler, Ryan Leaf, Cade Mcnown, David Carr, Patrick Ramsey, Joey Harrington, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Kyle Boller, JP Losman, Matt Leinart, Jamarcus Russell, Brady Quinn.

Broderick Bunkley, John McCargo, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Simms, Damione Lewis, Amobi Okoye, Travis Johnson, Tommie Harris, Jonathan Sullivan, Wendell Bryant, Reggie Mcgrew.

What's your point?

Bronco Boy
02-20-2010, 02:51 PM
Tim Couch, Jim Drunkenmiller, Dave Brown, Akili Smith, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Schuler, Ryan Leaf, Cade Mcnown, David Carr, Patrick Ramsey, Joey Harrington, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Kyle Boller, JP Losman, Matt Leinart, Jamarcus Russell, Brady Quinn.

Broderick Bunkley, John McCargo, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Simms, Damione Lewis, Amobi Okoye, Travis Johnson, Tommie Harris, Jonathan Sullivan, Wendell Bryant, Reggie Mcgrew.

What's your point?

My point is that I was answering 27's request to provide a list of top 10 WR busts taken since 2000. It's actually not even a point, but a set of facts.

Zoobie
02-20-2010, 03:35 PM
Peter Warrick, Plaxico Burress(debatable bust), Travis Taylor, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Reggie Williams, Braylon Edwards (debatable bust), Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers

Jury's still out on Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Crabtree, and Heyward Bey.

Is that list long enough for you?

How exactly is the jury still out on Calvin? Dude is a freak, he has all ready proven that. There are a lot of busts at every position in every draft, just as many steals too. Your argument really is senseless.

Dedhed
02-20-2010, 04:08 PM
My point is that I was answering 27's request to provide a list of top 10 WR busts taken since 2000. It's actually not even a point, but a set of facts.

You said the success rates of WRs in the 1st is lower than other positions, which is very simply false.

You can make the same list for just about every position on the field.

Draft history has zero bearing on the 2010 draft.

Bronco Boy
02-20-2010, 09:44 PM
You said the success rates of WRs in the 1st is lower than other positions, which is very simply false.

You can make the same list for just about every position on the field.

Draft history has zero bearing on the 2010 draft.

I don't know why I am even responding to you, since your description of George Foster as a bust DT kills any creditability you might have once had, but you are putting words in my mouth. When did I say the success rates of WRs in the 1st is lower than other positions?

Also, to say draft history has zero bearing on the 2010 draft is so ****ing stupid of a statement that it makes me question if you have ever even watched a football game.

Bronco Boy
02-20-2010, 09:51 PM
How exactly is the jury still out on Calvin? Dude is a freak, he has all ready proven that. There are a lot of busts at every position in every draft, just as many steals too. Your argument really is senseless.

Isn't being a "freak" a subjective opinion? It's not really something you can "prove". Besides, if he was really a "freak" he would have turned Culpepper into a recording breaking QB, like Moss did according to some douche in this thread, I don't remember which one.

Dedhed
02-21-2010, 08:36 AM
I don't know why I am even responding to you, since your description of George Foster as a bust DT kills any creditability you might have once had, but you are putting words in my mouth. When did I say the success rates of WRs in the 1st is lower than other positions?

Also, to say draft history has zero bearing on the 2010 draft is so ****ing stupid of a statement that it makes me question if you have ever even watched a football game.
Your reading comprehension makes it difficult to debate with you. I did not call George Foster a DT. I referenced him in a post about linemen being safer picks.

I said first round DTs bust all the time, and then brought up Foster as a first round lineman who was a terrible pick for the Broncos. Never called him a DT.

Are you serious? Just look at the WR's taken in the top 10 since 2000. The success rate is extremely low compared to other positions.

Pretty sure those are your words. Are you going to now say that "I said top ten, not 1st round, stop putting words in my mouth"?

Top 10 doesn't change anything. Linemen, LBs, QBs, RBs, CBs WRs, they all have busts in the top 10, and it has nothing to do with this draft at all.

Dedhed
02-21-2010, 08:39 AM
=TwinCitiesBronco;2756216

Also, to say draft history has zero bearing on the 2010 draft is so ****ing stupid of a statement that it makes me question if you have ever even watched a football game.
Are you really trying to suggest that because Mike Williams was a bust that increases the likelihood that Dez Bryant will be as well?

Because that would be the definition of stupid.

27atwater
02-21-2010, 08:57 AM
Peter Warrick, Plaxico Burress(debatable bust), Travis Taylor, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Reggie Williams, Braylon Edwards (debatable bust), Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers

Jury's still out on Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Crabtree, and Heyward Bey.

Is that list long enough for you?

2000; #4 pick-Warrick...clear bust...good call.
2000; #8 pick-Burress...The real deal. Was great in Pittsburgh and even better in NY. Helped get the Giants a ring. I disagree w/ ya on this one.

2001; #8 pick-David Terrell...bust, but I don't remember him getting hyped. I could be wrong so I concede this one.
2001; #9 pick-Koren Robinson...not someone I would even consider putting on the "sure thing" list. Kind of a surprise to be taken top 10 IIRC.

2002...No top 10 WRs taken

2003; #2 pick-Charles Rogers...was very hyped, clear bust...already discussed
2003; #3 pick-Andre Johnson...STUD

2004; #3 pick-Fitzgerald...STUD
2004; #7 pick-Roy Williams...STUD until he got the injuy. Never the same. I can't call him a bust cuz he showed he could perform.
2004; #9 pick-Reggie Williams...Never hyped. Workout warrior. had no business in round 1 let alone top 10.

2005; #3 pick-Brayon Edwards...HMMM...The jury is still out. Drops the rock, but also showed he can dominate when the ball actually gets to him.
2005; pick #7-Troy Williamson...had no business being taken that high. Combine 40 time made him risher than he shoulda been.
2005; pick #10-Mike Williams...mega-bust considering the hype. Hyped big, but still dropped to 10. Someone knew sumthin.

2006...No top 10 WRs taken

2007; #2 pick-Calvin Johnson...STUD. Maybe the best WR in the game. Dude has never had a QB, an oline, a run game or a complimentary WR once Roy got banged up.
2007; #9 pick-Ginn Jr...Another one w/ no busniess being top 10. Was drafted for return skills and 40 time. Had nowhere near the hype of a "can't miss" prospect.

2008...No top 10 Wrs taken

2009; #7 pick-DHB...simply a joke. Friggin Raiders.
2009; #10 pick-Crabtree...too early to be sure, but early indications point towards the positive.


You raise a very vaild argument for the early part of the decade, but I think it's clear that GMs have been much more careful and there have been fewer busts since 2003. Now again, my argument was for "can't miss" guys like Rogers and M Williams...and even Warrick. Nice call. Not simply guys who got drafted early. I agree that unless the dude is a major prospect, that the bust risk factor increases exponentially.

Broncoman13
02-21-2010, 09:26 AM
Jury is still out on Calvin Johnson??? Seriously, WTF

Bronco Boy
02-21-2010, 10:06 AM
Are you really trying to suggest that because Mike Williams was a bust that increases the likelihood that Dez Bryant will be as well?

Because that would be the definition of stupid.

How can the definition of stupid be an example of stupid? You are not making any sense. Also, to think that GMs/coaches do not learn from the past mistakes of others/themselves in evaluation of talent is extremely naive.

Bronco Boy
02-21-2010, 10:07 AM
Jury is still out on Calvin Johnson??? Seriously, WTF

Well according to deadhead Calvin should have made both Culpepper and Stafford hall of famers by now.

Bronco Boy
02-21-2010, 10:09 AM
Yet another fallacy. First round DTs bust out all the time. George Foster ring any bells?



Quoted for hilarity.

UberBroncoMan
02-21-2010, 10:15 AM
I don't want Dez.

The man surrounds himself with diva idiots.

Sanders and that ****ty ass agent that represents Crabtree.

The man screams BLING BLING.

We already have a proven YOUNG and more physical Pro-Bowl WR who wants BLING BLING and won't cost us a 1st round crap shoot pick to obtain.

Dedhed
02-21-2010, 04:04 PM
How can the definition of stupid be an example of stupid? You are not making any sense. Also, to think that GMs/coaches do not learn from the past mistakes of others/themselves in evaluation of talent is extremely naive.I won't even dignify the first comment with a response.

To think that GMs evaluate talent based on past drafts is beyond laughable.

Dedhed
02-21-2010, 04:08 PM
Quoted for hilarity.

You understand what a period in a sentence means right? It separates the thoughts.

You're imagining that I said. "First round DTs, like George Foster, bust all the time". Which isn't remotely the case. They're separate examples of your supposed safe lineman picks. Separate, get it? Thus the period.

The hilarity surrounds only your inability to comprehend the written sentence; and of course your idea that GMs league wide think about Mike Williams when they evaluate Dez Bryant.

Zoobie
02-21-2010, 04:34 PM
Well according to deadhead Calvin should have made both Culpepper and Stafford hall of famers by now.

It doesn't change the fact that you still think the jury is still out on Calvin, which if you have ever watched him I think you know is false.

Dedhed
02-21-2010, 05:36 PM
I don't want Dez.

The man surrounds himself with diva idiots.

Sanders and that ****ty ass agent that represents Crabtree.

The man screams BLING BLING.

We already have a proven YOUNG and more physical Pro-Bowl WR who wants BLING BLING and won't cost us a 1st round crap shoot pick to obtain.
I agree completely. I love the 2nd and 3rd round WR talent this year. There are a lot of guys that have a ton of talent without the TO 'tude attached. Benn, Shipley, Andre Roberts, McCluster are all intriguing prospects to me.

Zoobie
02-21-2010, 05:42 PM
I agree completely. I love the 2nd and 3rd round WR talent this year. There are a lot of guys that have a ton of talent without the TO 'tude attached. Benn, Shipley, Andre Roberts, McCluster are all intriguing prospects to me.

Okay here people go again, where is the "TO", "i'm a diva" attitude coming from? You guys are putting Dez in a class that is truly not fitting. He had lunch with a HOF'er and a sports icon, he didn't smack his girlfriend and tell the media he isn't getting enough catches.

Dedhed
02-21-2010, 05:55 PM
Okay here people go again, where is the "TO", "i'm a diva" attitude coming from? You guys are putting Dez in a class that is truly not fitting. He had lunch with a HOF'er and a sports icon, he didn't smack his girlfriend and tell the media he isn't getting enough catches.

I agree with you to a degree as well, but any time a guy gets booted from college football there have to be concerns.

Although he hasn't proven to be an out and out diva yet, there is a little smoke.

BroncoMan4ever
02-22-2010, 03:11 AM
I don't want Dez.

The man surrounds himself with diva idiots.

Sanders and that ****ty ass agent that represents Crabtree.

The man screams BLING BLING.

We already have a proven YOUNG and more physical Pro-Bowl WR who wants BLING BLING and won't cost us a 1st round crap shoot pick to obtain.

not only that, but I get a Mike Williams feel from the guy. it will be almost a full year since he played a real game by the time camp rolls around, and with younger players coming into the NFL I don't trust the maturity level. it would not shock me at all if he showed up to the combine out of shape.

plus if we are just going to give a rookie receiver big money to replace a pro bowler who just wants more money, pay the proven player.

i see so much that these analysts are saying we should draft Dez because we are going to lose Marshall. but the thing is, we don't need to lose Marshall, for 1 more year we own his ass, and if anyone does try to sign him we can match that deal. we hold all the cards in the situation.

why pay a rookie the same amount of money as a proven YOUNG player wants; just to hope the rookie can replicate his predecessors numbers?

Broncoman13
02-22-2010, 06:52 AM
You understand what a period in a sentence means right? It separates the thoughts.

You're imagining that I said. "First round DTs, like George Foster, bust all the time". Which isn't remotely the case. They're separate examples of your supposed safe lineman picks. Separate, get it? Thus the period.

The hilarity surrounds only your inability to comprehend the written sentence; and of course your idea that GMs league wide think about Mike Williams when they evaluate Dez Bryant.

Funny, I read it the same way. Sounded like you were saying that Georgina was a DT. Separated by a period or not, you mention that DTs but all the time and then say look at Foster in the very next thought. Nice spin.

Broncoman13
02-22-2010, 07:02 AM
I agree with you to a degree as well, but any time a guy gets booted from college football there have to be concerns.

Although he hasn't proven to be an out and out diva yet, there is a little smoke.

There is smoke b/c the NCAA decided to over react and make an example of Dez Bryant. He made a poor decision but really in the grand scheme of things, he was only looking to improve his performance and seeking advice from Deion, one of the best ever to play. A lot of people don't like Deion Sanders... so be it, but what did he ever do that was questionable behavior?

I don't have concerns about Dez Bryant's character. My concerns are more in line with how athletic is he? If he runs in the 4.6 range then I think you have to take a pass. I know that Boldin ran a 4.7 and BMarsh a 4.55. From that you can say that speed is not everything... but you don't spend a #10/11 pick on a WR with those question marks. The #10 in this draft must perform on the field in his rookie year. This is the year to pick BPA in the first in order to give this team an influx of talent. The only way you go against this model is if Clausen or Bradford slip to us at that pick, then you take your QB of the future, let Orton run things for another year while the "kid" gets up to speed and go from there.

oubronco
02-22-2010, 07:36 AM
I don't want Dez.

The man surrounds himself with diva idiots.

Sanders and that ****ty ass agent that represents Crabtree.

The man screams BLING BLING.

We already have a proven YOUNG and more physical Pro-Bowl WR who wants BLING BLING and won't cost us a 1st round crap shoot pick to obtain.

exactly proven > unknown

Bronco Boy
02-22-2010, 10:33 AM
You understand what a period in a sentence means right? It separates the thoughts.

You're imagining that I said. "First round DTs, like George Foster, bust all the time". Which isn't remotely the case. They're separate examples of your supposed safe lineman picks. Separate, get it? Thus the period.

The hilarity surrounds only your inability to comprehend the written sentence; and of course your idea that GMs league wide think about Mike Williams when they evaluate Dez Bryant.

Why would you bring up George Foster right after saying your comment about first round DTs? Why not say first round OTs? There have certainly been OT busts as well. Just man up and admit that you thought George Foster was a DT and don't really watch much football.

Bronco Boy
02-22-2010, 10:40 AM
I won't even dignify the first comment with a response.



Why not? It's like saying a Ferrari is the definition of a car. A definition gives the meaning of a word, not an example.



To think that GMs evaluate talent based on past drafts is beyond laughable.

Why is that so hard to believe? You don't think that when Shanny is looking at DEs to draft this year, he won't reflect back on what made him like Jarvis Moss so much? You don't think he might say "Well I liked these 4 attributes of his game, but these 2 held him back. This guy on the board here shares some of the same attributes that we saw in Moss, but he is different in these 3 ways"?

Bronco Boy
02-22-2010, 10:46 AM
It doesn't change the fact that you still think the jury is still out on Calvin, which if you have ever watched him I think you know is false.

He's certainly a good player, I'm just not ready to put him in the hall of fame just yet. The Lions could have taken a crappier player with that pick, certainly. That's why there is a jury, so it can be debated.

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 10:50 AM
tim couch, jim drunkenmiller, dave brown, akili smith, tommy maddox, rick mirer, heath schuler, ryan leaf, cade mcnown, david carr, patrick ramsey, joey harrington, david klingler, andre ware, alex smith, rex grossman, kyle boller, jp losman, matt leinart, jamarcus russell, brady quinn.

Broderick bunkley, john mccargo, dwayne robertson, ryan simms, damione lewis, amobi okoye, travis johnson, tommie harris, jonathan sullivan, wendell bryant, reggie mcgrew.

What's your point?

+1

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 10:53 AM
Jury is still out on Calvin Johnson??? Seriously, WTF

Exactly!! Calvin Johnson is far from a bust or any kind of statement saying the jury is still out on him is a joke! TwinCities...maybe it's time to stop talking for bit and take a rest!

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 10:54 AM
He's certainly a good player, I'm just not ready to put him in the hall of fame just yet. The Lions could have taken a crappier player with that pick, certainly. That's why there is a jury, so it can be debated.

And you are the one man jury?

Bronco Boy
02-22-2010, 10:55 AM
And you are the one man jury?

Ha ha, well isn't that how it started in 12 Angry Men?

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 10:59 AM
Ha ha, well isn't that how it started in 12 Angry Men?

You've got some good points...but the one about the jury still being out on Calvin Johnson is just flat out stupid! makes me wonder if you have ever watched a football game!

Bronco Boy
02-22-2010, 11:00 AM
Exactly!! Calvin Johnson is far from a bust or any kind of statement saying the jury is still out on him is a joke! TwinCities...maybe it's time to stop talking for bit and take a rest!

You say this like you even know! You are safe putting the guy on a pedestal after 3 seasons in the league? What has he done to reverse the fortune of the franchise? Seems to me they would have been better served taking Willis or Revis with the pick.

Which brings my argument full-circle. If you have a ****ty team, a top 10 WR (with all the risks they carry with them), is simply a poor decision.

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 12:09 PM
You say this like you even know! You are safe putting the guy on a pedestal after 3 seasons in the league? What has he done to reverse the fortune of the franchise? Seems to me they would have been better served taking Willis or Revis with the pick.

Which brings my argument full-circle. If you have a ****ty team, a top 10 WR (with all the risks they carry with them), is simply a poor decision.

I'm not here to say i know it all, you are the one who seems to think they know it all.....but one thing i do feel certain in saying is that Calvin Johnson is FAR from being a bust. And the past is exactly what it is...the PAST when talking about who Detroit should have taken rather than Calvin.

Zoobie
02-22-2010, 12:12 PM
You say this like you even know! You are safe putting the guy on a pedestal after 3 seasons in the league? What has he done to reverse the fortune of the franchise? Seems to me they would have been better served taking Willis or Revis with the pick.

Which brings my argument full-circle. If you have a ****ty team, a top 10 WR (with all the risks they carry with them), is simply a poor decision.

You're seriously saying having a top ten talent at a position is not helping a team? The Lions got incredible value for their pick and there are 150 reasons the Lions remain a cellar dweller, Calvin is not one.

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 12:15 PM
You're seriously saying having a top ten talent at a position is not helping a team? The Lions got incredible value for their pick and there are 150 reasons the Lions remain a cellar dweller, Calvin is not one.

No use trying to argue with the guy....it's a lost cause!

Bronco Boy
02-22-2010, 12:17 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I think the pick could have been better used elsewhere, but what the hell do I know, I'm just some dude on a message board.

ColoradoBuff
02-22-2010, 01:08 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I think the pick could have been better used elsewhere, but what the hell do I know, I'm just some dude on a message board.

touche!

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 06:56 AM
Why would you bring up George Foster right after saying your comment about first round DTs? Why not say first round OTs? There have certainly been OT busts as well. Just man up and admit that you thought George Foster was a DT and don't really watch much football.

Because I was referring to linemen on both sides of the ball. I'm perfectly willing to "man up" (a retarded saying, btw) if it's called for, but I'm not going to man up to something that exists only in your mind.

I guess from now on I'll have to explain any transitions to in painful detail.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 07:04 AM
There is smoke b/c the NCAA decided to over react and make an example of Dez Bryant. He made a poor decision but really in the grand scheme of things, he was only looking to improve his performance and seeking advice from Deion, one of the best ever to play. A lot of people don't like Deion Sanders... so be it, but what did he ever do that was questionable behavior?

I don't have concerns about Dez Bryant's character. My concerns are more in line with how athletic is he? If he runs in the 4.6 range then I think you have to take a pass. I know that Boldin ran a 4.7 and BMarsh a 4.55. From that you can say that speed is not everything... but you don't spend a #10/11 pick on a WR with those question marks. The #10 in this draft must perform on the field in his rookie year. This is the year to pick BPA in the first in order to give this team an influx of talent. The only way you go against this model is if Clausen or Bradford slip to us at that pick, then you take your QB of the future, let Orton run things for another year while the "kid" gets up to speed and go from there.
Schools spend days painstakingly outlining what you can and can't do as an athlete. He knew that it was against NCAA rules, which is why he lied about it, another testament to his character.

I also doubt that you're privy to what he was trying to gain from talking to Sanders. You can assume it was innocent, but you have no idea.

GMs ignore smoke to their team's demise. There's smoke with Bryant.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 07:11 AM
Funny, I read it the same way. Sounded like you were saying that Georgina was a DT. Separated by a period or not, you mention that DTs but all the time and then say look at Foster in the very next thought. Nice spin.
Not spin. Follow the thread. The post was in response to 1st round WRs vs. players of other positions (plural, as in numerous positions). I mentioned one position in general, and gave an example of another from the Broncos. That's fact, not spin.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 07:18 AM
You say this like you even know! You are safe putting the guy on a pedestal after 3 seasons in the league? What has he done to reverse the fortune of the franchise? Seems to me they would have been better served taking Willis or Revis with the pick.

Which brings my argument full-circle. If you have a ****ty team, a top 10 WR (with all the risks they carry with them), is simply a poor decision.

Are you now comparing the 8-8 Broncos to the worst franchise in the history of the league in order to salvage a dead argument?

That's wise.

I also think it's hardly putting someone on a pedestal by simply saying that he's a solid 1st round pick.

To argue that Calvin Johnson is anything but a solid 1st top 10 pick is moronic.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 07:36 AM
Why not? It's like saying a Ferrari is the definition of a car. A definition gives the meaning of a word, not an example.




Why is that so hard to believe? You don't think that when Shanny is looking at DEs to draft this year, he won't reflect back on what made him like Jarvis Moss so much? You don't think he might say "Well I liked these 4 attributes of his game, but these 2 held him back. This guy on the board here shares some of the same attributes that we saw in Moss, but he is different in these 3 ways"?
How, exactly, does a Ferrari (the example) not fit into the definition of a car? Your logic here is just brutal to follow.

Using your draft logic is equally brutal. It would be impossible for Shanahan to draft Clady using your logic. If he thought back to George Foster, the Offensive tackle, he would come to the conclusion that it's too risky to take a T in the 1st round?

That is, of course, unless he evaluates Ryan Clady on his own merit, which he did, and what good GMs do. He doesn't say "Well, the last time I took a T in the 1st round, he was a bust, so I better not do that again".

No GM worth their salt uses generalities like "1st round WRs are too risky". They evaluate talent and how that talent might fit what they're needs are right now.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 07:43 AM
a top 10 WR (with all the risks they carry with them), is simply a poor decision.

Reconcile Larry Fitzgerald using that logic. Drafted 3rd overall, by a crappy team, and had more to do with his team getting to the SB than any other player on his team.

ColoradoBuff
02-23-2010, 09:42 AM
Reconcile Larry Fitzgerald using that logic. Drafted 3rd overall, by a crappy team, and had more to do with his team getting to the SB than any other player on his team.

+1 *zing*

colonelbeef
02-23-2010, 12:28 PM
Reconcile Larry Fitzgerald using that logic. Drafted 3rd overall, by a crappy team, and had more to do with his team getting to the SB than any other player on his team.

Bwahahaha

Kurt Warner had more to do with that team getting to the superbowl than Fitzgerald did.

That team without Fitzgerald is still a playoff team. That team with Leinert instead of Warner is a 4 win team.

ColoradoBuff
02-23-2010, 12:51 PM
Bwahahaha

Kurt Warner had more to do with that team getting to the superbowl than Fitzgerald did.

That team without Fitzgerald is still a playoff team. That team with Leinert instead of Warner is a 4 win team.

Good point....but debatable!

Bronco Boy
02-23-2010, 01:47 PM
The other WRs at Arizona seem to do pretty well, so maybe it has something to do with the QB and the O-line as colonel pointed out?

Zoobie
02-23-2010, 03:40 PM
The other WRs at Arizona seem to do pretty well, so maybe it has something to do with the QB and the O-line as colonel pointed out?

Are you joking? Fitz and Boldin were both doing amazing things years before kurt ever showed up. Your argument against top flight WRs is pathetic, plain and simple. Try another angle though, it's amusing.

Zoobie
02-23-2010, 03:44 PM
Bwahahaha

Kurt Warner had more to do with that team getting to the superbowl than Fitzgerald did.

That team without Fitzgerald is still a playoff team. That team with Leinert instead of Warner is a 4 win team.

Did you even watch the playoffs that year? Without Fitz going ape**** they had no chance whatsoever. You need to refresh your memory.

Bronco Boy
02-23-2010, 04:02 PM
Are you joking? Fitz and Boldin were both doing amazing things years before kurt ever showed up. Your argument against top flight WRs is pathetic, plain and simple. Try another angle though, it's amusing.

What "amazing things" were they doing? Boldin had a great rookie year on a crap team then followed it up with a mediocre sophomore season. Fitz had a pretty good rookie season on a crap team. I wouldn't call that "doing amazing things years before Kurt", lol. On crap teams like that, you usually end up throwing more than running, and someone has to catch all those passes.

This whole argument is ridiculous anyway, because you guys are picking out one player that doesn't fit the argument that I said was "generally true." I never said it was an absolute.

Keep trying though Zoobs, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile! :poke:

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 05:01 PM
The other WRs at Arizona seem to do pretty well, so maybe it has something to do with the QB and the O-line as colonel pointed out?
Or the fact that their CBs NEVER have S help.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 05:04 PM
Bwahahaha

Kurt Warner had more to do with that team getting to the superbowl than Fitzgerald did.

That team without Fitzgerald is still a playoff team. That team with Leinert instead of Warner is a 4 win team.

Warner is the most overrated QB in league history.

I'll put $100 a game on the over of 4 wins with Leinart at the helm next year, with a far worse supporting staff.

Dedhed
02-23-2010, 05:09 PM
This whole argument is ridiculous anyway, because you guys are picking out one player that doesn't fit the argument that I said was "generally true." I never said it was an absolute.

Keep trying though Zoobs, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile! :poke:So does your take now exclude any WR taken high in the first who didn't bust?

You've changed the rules a few times now. Do you want to update us on the latest version of your general rules?

mhgaffney
02-23-2010, 06:04 PM
Warner is the most overrated QB in league history.

I'll put $100 a game on the over of 4 wins with Leinart at the helm next year, with a far worse supporting staff.

Garbage.

If Warner had won that second SB he'd have made the hall of fame.

An almost hall of famer is still one hell of a QB.

ColoradoBuff
02-24-2010, 07:52 AM
Warner is the most overrated QB in league history.

I'll put $100 a game on the over of 4 wins with Leinart at the helm next year, with a far worse supporting staff.


I agree. I don't think he would be as a successful QB if he played for Pittsburgh or a run first team. That's why he didn't make it with the Giants after being released by the Rams. Don't get me wrong, Warner was a helluva QB..but look at the 2 offenses of the teams he flourished in.

Taco John
02-24-2010, 12:15 PM
I am absolutely convinced that if Rolando McLain is there, we're going to draft him.

Rohirrim
02-24-2010, 12:28 PM
I am absolutely convinced that if Rolando McLain is there, we're going to draft him.

My Palantir tells me the Chiefs take McClain at 5. ;D

ColoradoBuff
02-24-2010, 01:33 PM
I am absolutely convinced that if Rolando McLain is there, we're going to draft him.


I hope so! Would love to see him in a Broncos uniform!

27atwater
02-24-2010, 07:04 PM
Warner is the most overrated QB in league history.



HUH? He took the RAMS and the CARDINALS to the SUPERBOWL. nuf said.

gunns
02-24-2010, 07:15 PM
I won't even dignify the first comment with a response.

To think that GMs evaluate talent based on past drafts is beyond laughable.

While I'm a huge fan of Andre Johnson, an immense talent, he has been with the team since it's second year and the team has never had better than a 9 win season, no playoffs. A WR is never the "reason" a team goes to the playoffs or SB. See the NE Pats when they won with no name receivers.

If your team is successful in other areas the WR will shine. The other areas have to be the OL, DL, and a QB that can get that WR the ball. We need to fix those areas with some big talent before we even worry about the WR position, even if Marshall goes. What did his performance do for us? We can find a quality WR in the later rounds which is where most of the quality WR's are found.

iforgotmypassword
02-24-2010, 08:26 PM
I'm I the only one that thinks Denver's O lacks big time speed. I'm all for adding power to lines but, I'd also like to add another RB with more speed as well as a WR with gamebreaking ability.

C + J = both of those....

But better yet, use the 10th on line, or trade down and still use it on line and then sign.... wait for it..... reggie bush!!!!

kinda just babblin, just an idea

Dedhed
03-12-2010, 08:36 PM
While I'm a huge fan of Andre Johnson, an immense talent, he has been with the team since it's second year and the team has never had better than a 9 win season, no playoffs. A WR is never the "reason" a team goes to the playoffs or SB. See the NE Pats when they won with no name receivers.

If your team is successful in other areas the WR will shine. The other areas have to be the OL, DL, and a QB that can get that WR the ball. We need to fix those areas with some big talent before we even worry about the WR position, even if Marshall goes. What did his performance do for us? We can find a quality WR in the later rounds which is where most of the quality WR's are found.
It's the same thing for any position. What did Cutler's performance do for us exactly? What has Clady's performance done for us? What has Nnamde's performance done for the Raiders? What did Haynesworth do for the Skins last year?
Where did Chris Johnson's 2000 yards get the Titans? The Rams won the Super Bowl on WRs (I would include Faulk in that group).

Trying to make rules like "A WR is never the reason a team goes to the SB" just doesn't work.

No player can do it alone, but at the same time a single player at any position can make all the difference in the world: Dawkins last year. Ray Lewis. Lawrence Taylor. Mike Singletary. John Elway. Jerry Rice. Larry Fitzgerald.

There is a reason they call this a team game. You evaluate players, and if you they make your team better you try to get them.