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View Full Version : When did Shanny start to lose the locker room?


baja
02-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Poll

jhns
02-05-2010, 10:42 AM
LOL

Lose the locker room? Wtf? Do you guys really believe this stuff?

I would say his downfall was not resigning the defensive talent while also not drafting well. That combined with horrible d coordinator selections made it time for him to go.

If you really believe this crap, how can any of you defend McDaniels? Like a year filled with drama is what keeps a locker room together? Is it something in the Colorado water? I know there is something wrong with the Baja water, don't need to question that.

Popps
02-05-2010, 10:45 AM
I voted Carter, but I think kicking Shannon Sharpe loose was a big boo-boo, as well.

I also don't know if it was losing the locker room so much as just making bad decision after bad decision.

But, he was a great game day coach. You have to credit him for what he did... with what he had over the last 10 years. Too bad we couldn't get someone to help him evaluate talent.

montrose
02-05-2010, 10:50 AM
The 1st time was benching Brister for Griese which essentially ended the career of our HOF RB, Shanahan even admitted to that. The second time was bencing Cutler for Plummer, that was reported by Jay Glazer. Adam Schefter had reported that many players (and Pat Bowlen) were not happy with the way the Al Wilson situation played out. So I'd say they're were several times, IMO.

DrFate
02-05-2010, 10:50 AM
This poll is missing the most correct option.

bronco militia
02-05-2010, 10:51 AM
which time/era?

Rohirrim
02-05-2010, 10:52 AM
The 1st time was benching Brister for Griese which essentially ended the career of our HOF RB, Shanahan even admitted to that. The second time was bencing Cutler for Plummer, that was reported by Jay Glazer. Adam Schefter had reported that many players (and Pat Bowlen) were not happy with the way the Al Wilson situation played out. So I'd say they're were several times, IMO.

This. I think the Plummer/Cutler thing split the lockerroom right down the middle.

Gob
02-05-2010, 10:54 AM
I would vote for each. Each time he lost the locker room a little, and had to work to get it back. All coaches do occasionally when they make tough, unpopular decisions or mistakes. Belicheck has probably been accused of losing the locker room more then any coach in the last 10 years.

I don't care about losing some of the locker room (especially when you have strong veteran player leadership like Dawkins to bring it back) because it comes with the territory of having a tough coach. I am more concerned about permanent loss of talent then temporary loss of a locker room.

bronco militia
02-05-2010, 10:56 AM
you'd think after all these years baja would be better at this.

bpc
02-05-2010, 11:14 AM
Where is the E. None of the above option?

Shanahan never lost the lockerroom. He just ran out of time rebuilding the franchise because he refused to call it rebuilding.

Water under the bridge, yet once again people bring this **** up. Must we always take swipes at the greatest coach in our franchises history? Is there no respect? I mean ****, now I have to listen to the idiots come out in droves trying to bash Shanahan because he drafted this player or because he had this guy around. Just give it a damn rest, STFU, and appreciate the man for the all the success he brought.

kappys
02-05-2010, 11:19 AM
I voted Carter, but I think kicking Shannon Sharpe loose was a big boo-boo, as well.

I also don't know if it was losing the locker room so much as just making bad decision after bad decision.

But, he was a great game day coach. You have to credit him for what he did... with what he had over the last 10 years. Too bad we couldn't get someone to help him evaluate talent.

Exactly - he's a great coach but a poor GM. Ultimately he demanded too much control

Taco John
02-05-2010, 11:21 AM
I can't say that I ever had a strong sense that he lost the locker room.

I think he had a core group of guys who believed in the direction of the team, and that it's unfortunate that Bowlen threw that away for so much uncertainty today.

WolfpackGuy
02-05-2010, 11:21 AM
I really think his slide began when he tried to become the Ravens starting in 2001.

It took him 5 years to come back to his roots of building an overpowering offense.

Meck77
02-05-2010, 11:24 AM
Where is the E. None of the above option?

Shanahan never lost the lockerroom. He just ran out of time rebuilding the franchise because he refused to call it rebuilding. .

Complete BS and nonsense.

John Lynch flat out went on record saying the locker room was split after they went to the AFC championship game and dumped plummer mid season. The vets Rod/lynch etc felt they could still salvage the season and make a run for the playoffs. In comes futler and years of bickering, childish behavior, and off the field distractions.

We certainly had some hard lessons last season but I believe Bowlen is tired of the excuses and ready to restore his team to winning ways. It's going to take some time but Shanny had 10 f'in years.

You guys can play GM and owner from home. I'll put my money on Pat Bowlen.

gtown
02-05-2010, 11:40 AM
I think he lost the locker room when it became apparent that he was more interested in being the architect for his house rather than the Broncos.

Rohirrim
02-05-2010, 11:52 AM
Where is the E. None of the above option?

Shanahan never lost the lockerroom. He just ran out of time rebuilding the franchise because he refused to call it rebuilding.

Water under the bridge, yet once again people bring this **** up. Must we always take swipes at the greatest coach in our franchises history? Is there no respect? I mean ****, now I have to listen to the idiots come out in droves trying to bash Shanahan because he drafted this player or because he had this guy around. Just give it a damn rest, STFU, and appreciate the man for the all the success he brought.

Yeah, I guess we should just sit around listening to you and your OCD tirades against McDaniels.

Arkie
02-05-2010, 11:56 AM
He lost half of the lockerroom when he started Griese over Brister. That 5-11 team just went through the motions after back-to-back super bowls. Plummer had the lockerroom back, but Cutler lost it again.

watermock
02-05-2010, 11:59 AM
I can't say that I ever had a strong sense that he lost the locker room.

I think he had a core group of guys who believed in the direction of the team, and that it's unfortunate that Bowlen threw that away for so much uncertainty today.

Shanny made many mistakes in FA, and on D but I don't think he ever lost the team.

The team had serious upside. We needed a couple RB's and alot of D.

It's amusing to read otherwise.

watermock
02-05-2010, 12:03 PM
He lost half of the lockerroom when he started Griese over Brister. That 5-11 team just went through the motions after back-to-back super bowls. Plummer had the lockerroom back, but Cutler lost it again.

WRONG. Grise was good till he broke his shoulder.

Then he was done.

Taco John
02-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Baja, just curious. Why didn't you start a thread asking this question about this season? It's clear that something broke down at the mid-way point, but I didn't see you start a thread to examine what it might have been. Why stuck on Shanahan?

oubronco
02-05-2010, 12:10 PM
locking himself to Slowdyck was his demise

jhns
02-05-2010, 12:22 PM
Baja, just curious. Why didn't you start a thread asking this question about this season? It's clear that something broke down at the mid-way point, but I didn't see you start a thread to examine what it might have been. Why stuck on Shanahan?

Easy.

Shanhan = Everything that was ever wrong with the Broncos.

McDaniels = Coach of the year.

Duh.

Broncomutt
02-05-2010, 12:41 PM
Baja, just curious. Why didn't you start a thread asking this question about this season? It's clear that something broke down at the mid-way point, but I didn't see you start a thread to examine what it might have been. Why stuck on Shanahan?

Well said. I don't see how anybody could have watched the last game of the season and not come to the conclusion that some, if not most, players just didn't really care.

The 3rd quarter exodus of most of the Bronco fans would indicate I am not the only one that felt that way either.

oubronco
02-05-2010, 12:50 PM
Baja, just curious. Why didn't you start a thread asking this question about this season? It's clear that something broke down at the mid-way point, but I didn't see you start a thread to examine what it might have been. Why stuck on Shanahan?

Baja............Baja........paging Baja

watermock
02-05-2010, 12:53 PM
He's retro fitting.

Gotta admit, he called 6-0.

BroncoMan4ever
02-05-2010, 12:56 PM
while i think each of those scenarios caused him to lose a little of the locker room, and the Al Wilson thing was a major slap in the face to your former captain and heart and soul of the defense, definitely pissed a lot of people off, the main one that ended up leading to his dismissal was benching Plummer for Cutler, or drafting Cutler in the 1st place. i can't even think of another situation in NFL history where a team that was 3 games above .500 made a QB change.

bpc
02-05-2010, 12:58 PM
Complete BS and nonsense.

John Lynch flat out went on record saying the locker room was split after they went to the AFC championship game and dumped plummer mid season. The vets Rod/lynch etc felt they could still salvage the season and make a run for the playoffs. In comes futler and years of bickering, childish behavior, and off the field distractions.

We certainly had some hard lessons last season but I believe Bowlen is tired of the excuses and ready to restore his team to winning ways. It's going to take some time but Shanny had 10 f'in years.

You guys can play GM and owner from home. I'll put my money on Pat Bowlen.

Shanahan never dumped Plummer. Plummer **** on himself and that's why he was out of a job. How many 1st and 2nd round QB's were drafted over the last few years that are still sitting the bench? Look at Matt Leinart.

If Jake would have been better after Cutler was drafted, it would have been a mute point. The fact was Jake played like **** and got benched because he couldn't take the heat.

If the team was mad about that, well, they should have looked in the mirror. Cutler was the better player which was proven statistically after he took over. Unfortunately by that time, the defense was faltering and falling apart.

bpc
02-05-2010, 01:01 PM
Yeah, I guess we should just sit around listening to you and your OCD tirades against McDaniels.

When was the last one of those?

When was the last time we had one of you jackasses still bringing up Cutler and Shanny?

If you want to talk the current team, let's do that.

Instead, you all would rather bash Shanahan and Cutler, because it deflects attention from the disfunctional situation we currently have running our team. It's easier for you all to kick a dead dog instead.

You may now resume spinning.

oubronco
02-05-2010, 01:03 PM
When was the last one of those?

When was the last time we had one of you jackasses still bringing up Cutler and Shanny?

If you want to talk the current team, let's do that.

Instead, you all would rather bash Shanahan and Cutler, because it deflects attention from the disfunctional situation we currently have running our team. It's easier for you all to kick a dead dog instead.

You may now resume spinning.

Sick Em'

bpc
02-05-2010, 01:03 PM
He lost half of the lockerroom when he started Griese over Brister. That 5-11 team just went through the motions after back-to-back super bowls. Plummer had the lockerroom back, but Cutler lost it again.

They finished 6-10.

I think after TD got hurt, they packed it in.

Brister wasn't the long term solution in Denver so I won't complain about that. He was a journeyman who was more known for his humorous locker room antics vs. being a great player.

bpc
02-05-2010, 01:04 PM
locking himself to Slowdyck was his demise

I will partially give credit to this arguement. I never understood it personally.

I think it was more a power play than anything else.

Rohirrim
02-05-2010, 01:43 PM
When was the last one of those?

When was the last time we had one of you jackasses still bringing up Cutler and Shanny?

If you want to talk the current team, let's do that.

Instead, you all would rather bash Shanahan and Cutler, because it deflects attention from the disfunctional situation we currently have running our team. It's easier for you all to kick a dead dog instead.

You may now resume spinning.

Do you mind if we talk about the Orange Crush? How about Elway? Previous SBs with the Broncos? Previous coaches? Players? HOF? Please let us know what your Lord High Almighty Muckety Muck deems acceptable conversation on this Broncos message board. I'm sure we'll all bow to your obvious divinity.

TDmvp
02-05-2010, 01:47 PM
O jeez Baja and another shanny poll ... go figure .... One thing for sure
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/8445/designalldll.jpg

bpc
02-05-2010, 02:34 PM
Do you mind if we talk about the Orange Crush? How about Elway? Previous SBs with the Broncos? Previous coaches? Players? HOF? Please let us know what your Lord High Almighty Muckety Muck deems acceptable conversation on this Broncos message board. I'm sure we'll all bow to your obvious divinity.

Talk about whatever you want, but then don't pull rank and bitch about me defending them. Which is often the case.

You would think our fan-base would appreciate Shanahan more than they do. But there in lies the problem with Bronco fans. They've often been spoiled over the past 30 years and have grown accustomed to their perch atop the AFC and the NFL. What's another winning season? What's another 1000 yd running back? What's another year competing for an AFC West championship while other division rivals sink and rise consistently. We started taking it all for granted like it's our right to step on the field and win without having to work for it and rebuild.

You see the patterns of this crap all throughout the franchise and the fan-base. It's one of the reasons why Mile High is a shell of it's former-self.

Sad but true.

Fail on.

baja
02-05-2010, 03:02 PM
Baja, just curious. Why didn't you start a thread asking this question about this season? It's clear that something broke down at the mid-way point, but I didn't see you start a thread to examine what it might have been. Why stuck on Shanahan?

I can't start all the the threads, you go for it. ;D

Popps
02-05-2010, 03:47 PM
You would think our fan-base would appreciate Shanahan more than they do. .

Fans appreciate him. But, things change in life, Chris. Mike Shanahan had 10 years to build another champion and couldn't do so. He won a lot of games, gave the fans some great seasons and was a great Bronco.

But, time presses on. It's a business, and you can either accept that reality or remain bitter and hateful towards the new staff for the rest of your life.

Taco John
02-05-2010, 04:20 PM
Fans appreciate him. But, things change in life, Chris. Mike Shanahan had 10 years to build another champion and couldn't do so. He won a lot of games, gave the fans some great seasons and was a great Bronco.

But, time presses on. It's a business, and you can either accept that reality or remain bitter and hateful towards the new staff for the rest of your life.


Or Cutler. He could always choose to be bitter and hateful towards Cutler the rest of his life. There are options here.

bpc
02-05-2010, 04:38 PM
Fans appreciate him. But, things change in life, Chris. Mike Shanahan had 10 years to build another champion and couldn't do so. He won a lot of games, gave the fans some great seasons and was a great Bronco.

But, time presses on. It's a business, and you can either accept that reality or remain bitter and hateful towards the new staff for the rest of your life.

History will reflect kindly on Shanahan. To you and your group of apologist cohorts, you argue that Mike didn't do squat for 10 years. When we look back, history will reflect that:

a. In 2000, Denver lost to one of the greatest defensive teams of all time on one or two fluke plays offensive plays, on the road albeit with a backup QB. They also went on to win the super bowl.

b. Two losses in the playoffs on the road to the Colts in what will eventually be reflected as losses to the greatest QB of all time, Peyton Manning. Yeah, many teams have fallen to his sword. We are just the most notable to being victimized over and over.

c. Our final loss at home to the Steelers in the 2005 AFCCG to the Steelers will solidify the greatness of their late season run, not our collapse as a coaching staff or a team. Like the Ravens, they too went on to win the super bowl. Pittsburgh was a team of destiny that year with Jerome Bettis at the helm. Nobody was going to beat them that year. Not the Patriots, not the Colts, not the Broncos, and definitely no other NFC team.

Combine all of this with Shanahan's magical work to turn around Jake Plummer's career from ultimate loser to big time winner, our last decade was not NEARLY as bad as most make it out to be. We were often just the bridesmaid to history.

On a more current note, i'm not hateful of the new staff. They just don't have any credit with me and they are continuously screwing things up and I call them out over it.

I'm just waiting for Elvis Dumervil to be wearing a different colored uniform next year. Falls perfectly in line with the previous years mistakes.

elsid13
02-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Or Cutler. He could always choose to be bitter and hateful towards Cutler the rest of his life. There are options here.

that going to leave a mark

DBroncos4life
02-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Stink even said time and time again it went down hill after he signed Carter. Shanahan said multiple times that we wouldn't have players like Carter on the team then he made Cater one of the highest paid DBs at the time.

bpc
02-05-2010, 04:47 PM
Shanny's greatest attribute and flaw was that he had an insatiable hunger to win. Almost at any cost.

It's easy to callout the DC signing now. At the time we were coming off a super bowl season and signing one of the most talented CB's in the league. We had also been one of the most successful teams in FA over the previous 3 or 4 years so we looked great until that point.

Taco John
02-05-2010, 04:51 PM
Dale Carter gave us a lot of trouble. I didn't like the signing, to be sure. But at the time, I remember being happy not having him across the field from us anymore.

Hamrob
02-05-2010, 05:14 PM
Give me a ****ing break. He never lost the locker room you idiot!

wolverine
02-05-2010, 06:07 PM
He started to lose me when he fired Larry Coyer.
He lost me when he refused to fire Bob Slowik.

oubronco
02-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Dale Carter gave us a lot of trouble. I didn't like the signing, to be sure. But at the time, I remember being happy not having him across the field from us anymore.

Shanny was always trying to get the best players he could because we ALWAYS drafted in the latter part of the 1st rd

Rohirrim
02-05-2010, 06:25 PM
Discussion morphs into Shanahan's first round picks in 3, 2, 1...

WolfpackGuy
02-05-2010, 06:41 PM
Discussion morphs into Shanahan's first round picks in 3, 2, 1...

I'll kickstart it.

96 - Mobley (15)
97 - Pryce (28)
98 - Nash (30)
99 - Wilson (31)
00 - O'Neal (15)
01 - Middlebrooks (24)
02 - Lelie (19)
03 - Foster (20)
04 - DJ Williams (17)
05 - traded (25, pick was Jason Campbell)
06 - Cutler (11)
07 - Moss (17)
08 - Clady (12)

Al Wilson
02-05-2010, 07:04 PM
Funny how the majority voted for "Starting Cutler and benching Plummer", yet most of you hated on Plummer and wanted him benched. I'm sorry losers, but Plummer is the 2nd best QB to play for the Broncos after Elway. I just wish if Kubiak never left, and stayed as offensive coordinator with Plummer playing ball. It just fell apart when he left.

Popps
02-05-2010, 07:09 PM
Or Cutler. He could always choose to be bitter and hateful towards Cutler the rest of his life. There are options here.

No, that's called joy. Jay Cutler being out of Denver brings (most of) us joy.

Joy - Bitterness... two very different things.

Popps
02-05-2010, 07:10 PM
Funny how the majority voted for "Starting Cutler and benching Plummer", yet most of you hated on Plummer and wanted him benched. I'm sorry losers, but Plummer is the 2nd best QB to play for the Broncos after Elway. I just wish if Kubiak never left, and stayed as offensive coordinator with Plummer playing ball. It just fell apart when he left.

It is indeed ironic that Shanahan's demise pretty much started the day drafted Jay Cutler.

DBroncos4life
02-05-2010, 07:18 PM
It is indeed ironic that Shanahan's demise pretty much started the day drafted Jay Cutler.

You know what I find awesome? That we are still discussing when Shanahan lost the locker room as if it really matters. Oh wait of course it matters to the posters with agenda's. You and I both know that vets stopped buying into what Mike was trying to sale when he signed Carter. This has nothing to do with Cutler.

Florida_Bronco
02-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Complete BS and nonsense.

John Lynch flat out went on record saying the locker room was split after they went to the AFC championship game and dumped plummer mid season. The vets Rod/lynch etc felt they could still salvage the season and make a run for the playoffs. In comes futler and years of bickering, childish behavior, and off the field distractions.

We certainly had some hard lessons last season but I believe Bowlen is tired of the excuses and ready to restore his team to winning ways. It's going to take some time but Shanny had 10 f'in years.

You guys can play GM and owner from home. I'll put my money on Pat Bowlen.

Yep.

People can stick their head in the sand all they want, but we have players going on record (D.J Williams as well) discussing the division in the locker room and how the defense felt "like second class citizens".

WolfpackGuy
02-05-2010, 07:40 PM
You know what I find awesome? That we are still discussing when Shanahan lost the locker room as if it really matters. Oh wait of course it matters to the posters with agenda's. You and I both know that vets stopped buying into what Mike was trying to sale when he signed Carter. This has nothing to do with Cutler.

And when they got Carter, they had him play zone instead of press coverage.

Brilliant!

DBroncos4life
02-05-2010, 07:46 PM
And when they got Carter, they had him play zone instead of press coverage.

Brilliant!

I'm pretty sure his cap hit the following year played a major role in us not being able to keep Shannon Sharpe as well.

WolfpackGuy
02-05-2010, 07:49 PM
I'm pretty sure his cap hit the following year played a major role in us not being able to keep Shannon Sharpe as well.

I believe you're right. He got a HUGE deal to leave KC.

DBroncos4life
02-05-2010, 07:56 PM
I believe you're right. He got a HUGE deal to leave KC.

And we got punked when he got suspended. The fact is Carter played well for us. He had 70 plus tackles and 12 PD. Had he been able to do that the length of his contract I doubt many would have had much of a problem with him. Having to dump him after he signed a 6 year 34.8 million dollar contract killed us. I remember we got some relief from it but still it was a bad deal for us.

His deal that he got forced us to out right dump Steve Atwater. That sat well with the locker room.

WolfpackGuy
02-05-2010, 08:01 PM
His deal that he got forced us to out right dump Steve Atwater. That sat well with the locker room.

To be replaced with the immortal Eric Brown! The only thing I remember him for was the "mess with Brett Favre's thumb" comment.

Well, Brown was already taking time from Atwater in 1998, losing him to the Jets sucked.

elsid13
02-05-2010, 08:20 PM
Atwater was done. In fact Shanahan probably kept him one year to long.

DBroncos4life
02-05-2010, 08:24 PM
Atwater was done. In fact Shanahan probably kept him one year to long.

That might be but Shanahan spent the year bad mouthing Carter according to Mark Schlereth then in the offseason we made him one of the highest paid DB's in the NFL and cut one of the locker room leaders in Atwater. Mark Schlereth said that is when people stopped buying into what Mike was saying.

bpc
02-05-2010, 08:55 PM
It is indeed ironic that Shanahan's demise pretty much started the day drafted Jay Cutler.

Sure. Didn't have anything to do with our defense losing Al Wilson to a career ending injury or Darrent William being shot to death or Javon Walker going insane afterwards.

Couldn't have been any of those things.

Bottom line is Plummer was faced with a challenge and folded up like a Sunday chair. There was no battle, there was no fight because Jake just **** the bed in the face of competition. Dress it up however you want but this is the case.

Without Shanahan, Jake Plummer would have been a 2nd round bust in this league. The only reason anybody remembers him fondly is because of the coaching Shanahan gave him. It turned his career around.

You guys are funny.

DBroncos4life
02-05-2010, 09:18 PM
Sure. Didn't have anything to do with our defense losing Al Wilson to a career ending injury or Darrent William being shot to death or Javon Walker going insane afterwards.

Couldn't have been any of those things.

Bottom line is Plummer was faced with a challenge and folded up like a Sunday chair. There was no battle, there was no fight because Jake just **** the bed in the face of competition. Dress it up however you want but this is the case.

Without Shanahan, Jake Plummer would have been a 2nd round bust in this league. The only reason anybody remembers him fondly is because of the coaching Shanahan gave him. It turned his career around.

You guys are funny.

Plummer was a loser and a turnover machine before he got lucky and landed with the Broncos. Anyone that thinks otherwise is retarded. Shanahan took a guy with 90 TDs and 114 INTs with the Cards and turned him into 71 TD's and 45 INTs with the Broncos. His QB rating jumped 15.31 points with Mike as well. I often wonder if people really understand how poor Jake Plummer's play was when he had crap for talent around him with the Cards.

SoCalBronco
02-05-2010, 10:43 PM
The question assumes too much.

uplink
02-05-2010, 11:41 PM
how about all of the above option, they all hurt him in the locker room

baja
02-06-2010, 12:28 AM
The question assumes too much.

So the guy that thinks Richard Nixon is an American hero says my question assumes too much. Interesting! ;D

baja
02-06-2010, 12:29 AM
how about all of the above option, they all hurt him in the locker room

Good suggestion wish I had done just that.

DBroncos4life
02-06-2010, 12:34 AM
Good suggestion wish I had done just that.

This is a great poll. It proves that 56% of the board doesn't know what they hell they are talking about. :thumbsup:

Durango
02-06-2010, 12:45 AM
Shanahan never lost the lockerroom. Every player I have ever seen interviewed about Shanahan-the-coach loved him, with the notable exception along the way like Jake Plummer and maybe Bill Romanowski, but perhaps his message was getting stale and his style predictable. That happens with nearly every coach, great or small.

baja
02-06-2010, 12:49 AM
Shanahan never lost the lockerroom. Every player I have ever seen interviewed about Shanahan-the-coach loved him, with the notable exception along the way like Jake Plummer and maybe Bill Romanowski, but perhaps his message was getting stale and his style predictable. That happens with nearly every coach, great or small.

Are you talking about the little man up stairs?

DBroncos4life
02-06-2010, 12:52 AM
I think you should have had a who cares I doubt it had any effect on the 09 locker room option.

baja
02-06-2010, 01:04 AM
I think you should have had a who cares I doubt it had any effect on the 09 locker room option.

True it had no affect on the 09 season unless you count the fact that it caused our Denver Broncos to be gutted and the blood letting has not ended yet.

DBroncos4life
02-06-2010, 01:29 AM
True it had no affect on the 09 season unless you count the fact that it caused our Denver Broncos to be gutted and the blood letting has not ended yet.

I'm not going to place the blame for the decisions of McD on his personal moves on Mike Shanahan. If you want to that is great. To me it just sounds like another excuse for McD not to hold last years team accountable for his actions right or wrong. No one forced McD into the discussion for Cassel. I 100% certain neither Bus or Cutler was in that room when that conversation originally took place with the powers that be so it getting to Cutler is 100% on McD. The fact that the conversation took place doesn't matter. It's great that McD explored options to make the team better. That is his job. The other part of his job is to not allow info like that to get leaked and he and his staff FAILED to prevent it. Culters reaction to it was piss ass poor but again it never should have got that far.

The 55% of the board that thought that Jake Plummer was the undoing of Mike Shanahan need to prove to me that Jake Plummer was worth a crap as a QB before Mike Shanahan tailored the offense around him. You guys fail to realize how poor he was before Mike Shanahan made him into a winner. The guy was a Sub .500 QB before Mike Shanahan and you want to tie the undoing of Mike to him? You are crazy. Mike knew he was limited with Jake. Everyone knows it but you guys.

Florida_Bronco
02-06-2010, 02:03 AM
Plummer was a loser and a turnover machine before he got lucky and landed with the Broncos. Anyone that thinks otherwise is retarded. Shanahan took a guy with 90 TDs and 114 INTs with the Cards and turned him into 71 TD's and 45 INTs with the Broncos. His QB rating jumped 15.31 points with Mike as well. I often wonder if people really understand how poor Jake Plummer's play was when he had crap for talent around him with the Cards.

Despite the fact that Plummer wasn't that great of a QB, the team rallied around him and he was extremely well liked in the locker room. When Shanny benched him for Cutler, it had a very negative effect on the locker room.

DBroncos4life
02-06-2010, 02:27 AM
Despite the fact that Plummer wasn't that great of a QB, the team rallied around him and he was extremely well liked in the locker room. When Shanny benched him for Cutler, it had a very negative effect on the locker room.

Shanahan lost the locker room well before that. Baja is doing what he does to just make Cutler out to be a coach killer. If people want to be buy that so be it but Shanahan was going down regardless of who the QB was. Despite all of that Shanahan made Plummer a winner, not the other way around. Plummer played with heart and passion but without Shanahan he would have continued to throw lots of INTs and win very few games. Say what you want about Cutler and the amount of INTs he has in his career atleast he has never finished a season with more INTs the TDs something Plummer did multiple times in his career. Cutler had a down right horrible year. I won't deny that but something that he doesn't get credit for is even with his high INT total he was still able to throw for more TDs. Manning when he threw his career 28 INTs that year threw less TDs. Favre when he threw his career high 29 INTs didn't throw for more TDs that season.

BroncoMan4ever
02-06-2010, 02:43 AM
Plummer was a loser and a turnover machine before he got lucky and landed with the Broncos. Anyone that thinks otherwise is retarded. Shanahan took a guy with 90 TDs and 114 INTs with the Cards and turned him into 71 TD's and 45 INTs with the Broncos. His QB rating jumped 15.31 points with Mike as well. I often wonder if people really understand how poor Jake Plummer's play was when he had crap for talent around him with the Cards.

name me 1 QB aside from Elway who wouldn't have ****ty stats while playing on a ****ty team, and then see those stats jump dramatically when the talent around him got better? Elway is the only QB who was great when he had weak talent around him and great when he had talent with him

also, if you recall Griese's last game in Denver against Arizona who at the time was led by Plummer, it was a stadium full of fans who were chanting for Jake to come to Denver, even during a game we won by something like 30 points.

Florida_Bronco
02-06-2010, 02:50 AM
Shanahan lost the locker room well before that. Baja is doing what he does to just make Cutler out to be a coach killer.

To be fair, that wasn't Cutler's fault. That's on Shanny's head.

DBroncos4life
02-06-2010, 02:56 AM
name me 1 QB aside from Elway who wouldn't have ****ty stats while playing on a ****ty team, and then see those stats jump dramatically when the talent around him got better? Elway is the only QB who was great when he had weak talent around him and great when he had talent with him

also, if you recall Griese's last game in Denver against Arizona who at the time was led by Plummer, it was a stadium full of fans who were chanting for Jake to come to Denver, even during a game we won by something like 30 points.

The bold part is comical attempt to make Plummer out to be better then he was. Plummer was terrible outside of Denver. It wasn't even close. He threw way more INTs then TDs and lost WAY more games then he WON. Yes a QB will preform better with better talent but Plummer was HORRIBLE and we did the best we could as long as we could with him as a starter. If you guys want to rewrite history on him and make him out to be this legend then be my guess. To me he is just slightly better then Archie Manning. For **** sakes man Plummer had 1900 yards 11 TDs and 13 INTs the season he got benched. That was through 11 games! He wasn't getting the job done and the D was suffering because of it.

DBroncos4life
02-06-2010, 03:04 AM
To be fair, that wasn't Cutler's fault. That's on Shanny's head.

You're right Cutler had nothing to do with Mike Shanahan signing Dale Carter but yet people are so blind to that fact they will just go ahead and let Cutler be the fall guy because of some blind hate for him.

Drek
02-06-2010, 08:13 AM
I'm not going to place the blame for the decisions of McD on his personal moves on Mike Shanahan. If you want to that is great. To me it just sounds like another excuse for McD not to hold last years team accountable for his actions right or wrong. No one forced McD into the discussion for Cassel. I 100% certain neither Bus or Cutler was in that room when that conversation originally took place with the powers that be so it getting to Cutler is 100% on McD. The fact that the conversation took place doesn't matter. It's great that McD explored options to make the team better. That is his job. The other part of his job is to not allow info like that to get leaked and he and his staff FAILED to prevent it. Culters reaction to it was piss ass poor but again it never should have got that far.

Its real hard to stop leaks in other organizations, especially when you're being set up for a PR war.

I'm continually amazed at how many people don't question the fact that 1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations within 24 hours of it happening 2. got in touch with Cutler immediately (when the owner of this franchise apparently couldn't do that) and 3. had a host of media interviews scheduled almost instantly, with what amounted to prepared statements lined up and ready to go for those media interviews.

Bus Cook has had two other big time QB clients, Brett Favre and Steve McNair. At some point in both of their careers he orchestrated similar scenarios to get his client out of town and to a preferred destination. Are people really so naive to still think that wasn't what happened here?

Cutler wasn't happy with the new coach or the release of Jeremy Bates. He felt no loyalty to the organization, just to Shanahan and Bates. So when they where gone he wanted out. He can talk in pressers about how he never wanted to be traded, but when your agent formally requests a trade TWICE its kinda two faced to act shocked when you find yourself on another team.

That's all in the past though, and we made out like bandits in the exchange, so good on Josh. One hell of a strong personnel move there.

Shanahan never lost the lockerroom. Every player I have ever seen interviewed about Shanahan-the-coach loved him, with the notable exception along the way like Jake Plummer and maybe Bill Romanowski, but perhaps his message was getting stale and his style predictable. That happens with nearly every coach, great or small.

Dominique Foxworth openly questioned Shanahan's "every job is up for competition" mantra the off-season before he was traded and at that time he was the NFLPA Rep for the Denver Broncos.

That means enough of his teammates liked and trusted him for him to have been voted their union rep. A rather big deal if you've ever worked with anyone who's a union guy. He obviously had lost trust in Shanahan to the point where he vocalized it publicly.

There are ample other examples, but that one speaks volumes of why Shanahan lost the team's confidence. He didn't practice what he preached and as a result none of them did either. It wasn't replacing Plummer with Cutler, it wasn't how he handled Al Wilson, etc.. It was a combination of all the above and then a whole lot more (like defending that scum bag Travis Henry, changing DCs on an annual basis, bringing Ian Gold back on a big deal after he chose to bail on this team before, etc..)

The only relevance it has now though is that McDaniels is still left cleaning up the last of the bad apples and trying to change the mindset of the good guys led down the wrong path.

And for the record, I personally think Marshall is in the later group, and think McDaniels will make a legitimate attempt to win him over. A guy who is in the bad apple group though and who WON'T be back next year? Tony Scheffler. Guy gave up on the season and wasn't afraid to admit it just because he wasn't happy with his role. That's unprofessional and even John Elway who is normally quite reserved when it comes to Bronco football specifics called him out on it.

baja
02-06-2010, 08:32 AM
Its real hard to stop leaks in other organizations, especially when you're being set up for a PR war.

I'm continually amazed at how many people don't question the fact that 1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations within 24 hours of it happening 2. got in touch with Cutler immediately (when the owner of this franchise apparently couldn't do that) and 3. had a host of media interviews scheduled almost instantly, with what amounted to prepared statements lined up and ready to go for those media interviews.

Bus Cook has had two other big time QB clients, Brett Favre and Steve McNair. At some point in both of their careers he orchestrated similar scenarios to get his client out of town and to a preferred destination. Are people really so naive to still think that wasn't what happened here?

Cutler wasn't happy with the new coach or the release of Jeremy Bates. He felt no loyalty to the organization, just to Shanahan and Bates. So when they where gone he wanted out. He can talk in pressers about how he never wanted to be traded, but when your agent formally requests a trade TWICE its kinda two faced to act shocked when you find yourself on another team.

That's all in the past though, and we made out like bandits in the exchange, so good on Josh. One hell of a strong personnel move there.



Dominique Foxworth openly questioned Shanahan's "every job is up for competition" mantra the off-season before he was traded and at that time he was the NFLPA Rep for the Denver Broncos.

That means enough of his teammates liked and trusted him for him to have been voted their union rep. A rather big deal if you've ever worked with anyone who's a union guy. He obviously had lost trust in Shanahan to the point where he vocalized it publicly.

There are ample other examples, but that one speaks volumes of why Shanahan lost the team's confidence. He didn't practice what he preached and as a result none of them did either. <b> It wasn't replacing Plummer with Cutler, it wasn't how he handled Al Wilson, etc.. It was a combination of all the above and then a whole lot more </b>(like defending that scum bag Travis Henry, changing DCs on an annual basis, bringing Ian Gold back on a big deal after he chose to bail on this team before, etc..)

The only relevance it has now though is that McDaniels is still left cleaning up the last of the bad apples and trying to change the mindset of the good guys led down the wrong path.

And for the record, I personally think Marshall is in the later group, and think McDaniels will make a legitimate attempt to win him over. A guy who is in the bad apple group though and who WON'T be back next year? Tony Scheffler. Guy gave up on the season and wasn't afraid to admit it just because he wasn't happy with his role. That's unprofessional and even John Elway who is normally quite reserved when it comes to Bronco football specifics called him out on it.

I wish I had made two additional options on the poll choices, number 5 would have been "other" and number six would have been "all of the above".

jhns
02-06-2010, 09:02 AM
Its real hard to stop leaks in other organizations, especially when you're being set up for a PR war.

I'm continually amazed at how many people don't question the fact that 1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations within 24 hours of it happening 2. got in touch with Cutler immediately (when the owner of this franchise apparently couldn't do that) and 3. had a host of media interviews scheduled almost instantly, with what amounted to prepared statements lined up and ready to go for those media interviews.

Bus Cook has had two other big time QB clients, Brett Favre and Steve McNair. At some point in both of their careers he orchestrated similar scenarios to get his client out of town and to a preferred destination. Are people really so naive to still think that wasn't what happened here?

Cutler wasn't happy with the new coach or the release of Jeremy Bates. He felt no loyalty to the organization, just to Shanahan and Bates. So when they where gone he wanted out. He can talk in pressers about how he never wanted to be traded, but when your agent formally requests a trade TWICE its kinda two faced to act shocked when you find yourself on another team.

So it is weird that they get information that is true and can call a press conference? What? He got in contact with Cutler before Cutler went home and into hiding? You mean at a time when no one had ever come out with problems getting Cutler on the phone? That is strange to you? OK.....

He wanted out enough to go work with McDaniels for his entire offseason? You do know McDaniels and Bowlen have said Jay never asked for trades or anything before the McDaniels trade talks, right?

If your second paragraph is true, and it was just Cook playing the team. Don't we look dumb. We let him do it. Why not just make Cutler retire? If he didn't want to play here, that was his only option. No matter the spin, this team handled that situation completely wrong. It shows that we had a bunch of guys in charge that had no idea what they were doing. They have no idea how to deal with players.

Anyways, have fun with your conspiracy theories. Every one that I hear still shows the team screwed up. We are starting Kyle Orton. Enough said. "We made out like bandits!!!" LOL With what?

TonyR
02-06-2010, 09:11 AM
Are people really so naive to still think that wasn't what happened here?


Yes, that and it doesn't fit their hate-McD-no-matter-what agenda.

And great post.

Cito Pelon
02-06-2010, 09:27 AM
Well, I don't know what the impact was on the locker room, but as a fan, signing Dale Carter was certainly when the luster Shanny had as a 'can do no wrong coach' came off. It was clear to many of us fans at the time that it was a horrible FA signing. Before that point I had forgiven Shanny's traitorous acceptance of the Raider HC job.

Then refusing to give Sharpe a contract and refusing to match Sharpe's FA offer was another WTF moment (remember Shanny saying with a big smile I can pay two guys less and get the same production ???).

Then giving Griese that huge contract was another WTF moment. All three of those WTF moves were in a 3 year window, 1999-2002. The Carter/Griese dead money compounded by dead money from prorated bonuses given to SB year players really hurt at the time when the salary cap was about $60 million.

Then there was the Darryl Gardener fiasco, the Travis Henry fiasco, the insistence that a WR coming off an ACL Javon Walker was a great deal for a 2nd rounder, trading Portis for Champ because he failed on the Dale Carter deal and couldn't draft CB's for sh*t.

Again, I don't know what the effect was on the locker room, but the effect on me as a fan was to question Shanny's ability to run the franchise.

So I'll vote 'Dale Carter', since things really snowballed after that.

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2010, 09:33 AM
we made out like bandits in the exchange

Problem is he took the loot and burned it out in the street.

Gob
02-06-2010, 09:51 AM
Its real hard to stop leaks in other organizations, especially when you're being set up for a PR war.

I'm continually amazed at how many people don't question the fact that 1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations within 24 hours of it happening 2. got in touch with Cutler immediately (when the owner of this franchise apparently couldn't do that) and 3. had a host of media interviews scheduled almost instantly, with what amounted to prepared statements lined up and ready to go for those media interviews.

Bus Cook has had two other big time QB clients, Brett Favre and Steve McNair. At some point in both of their careers he orchestrated similar scenarios to get his client out of town and to a preferred destination. Are people really so naive to still think that wasn't what happened here?

Cutler wasn't happy with the new coach or the release of Jeremy Bates. He felt no loyalty to the organization, just to Shanahan and Bates. So when they where gone he wanted out. He can talk in pressers about how he never wanted to be traded, but when your agent formally requests a trade TWICE its kinda two faced to act shocked when you find yourself on another team.

That's all in the past though, and we made out like bandits in the exchange, so good on Josh. One hell of a strong personnel move there.



Cook can make a fuss, but he is not Moriarty. The Titans and Packers both decided to make changes at qb before Cook started pushing for them to trade his clients. Neither he nor Jay had any real power, especially when Jay said he would go to minicamp if he wasn't traded first. Bowlen and Josh held all the cards. I think the naive argument is the one some people make that an unwilling McDaniels was railroaded by Bowlen into making the trade. That is not Bowlen's MO, and Josh has won every power struggle he has had since getting the job, even when it meant directly contradicting what Bowlen said was going to be the setup and power structure before hiring Josh. It may (or may not) have been Bowlens idea, but I have no doubt Josh was on board with it.

bpc
02-06-2010, 12:40 PM
Its real hard to stop leaks in other organizations, especially when you're being set up for a PR war.

I'm continually amazed at how many people don't question the fact that 1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations within 24 hours of it happening 2. got in touch with Cutler immediately (when the owner of this franchise apparently couldn't do that) and 3. had a host of media interviews scheduled almost instantly, with what amounted to prepared statements lined up and ready to go for those media interviews.

Bus Cook has had two other big time QB clients, Brett Favre and Steve McNair. At some point in both of their careers he orchestrated similar scenarios to get his client out of town and to a preferred destination. Are people really so naive to still think that wasn't what happened here?

Cutler wasn't happy with the new coach or the release of Jeremy Bates. He felt no loyalty to the organization, just to Shanahan and Bates. So when they where gone he wanted out. He can talk in pressers about how he never wanted to be traded, but when your agent formally requests a trade TWICE its kinda two faced to act shocked when you find yourself on another team.

That's all in the past though, and we made out like bandits in the exchange, so good on Josh. One hell of a strong personnel move there.



Dominique Foxworth openly questioned Shanahan's "every job is up for competition" mantra the off-season before he was traded and at that time he was the NFLPA Rep for the Denver Broncos.

That means enough of his teammates liked and trusted him for him to have been voted their union rep. A rather big deal if you've ever worked with anyone who's a union guy. He obviously had lost trust in Shanahan to the point where he vocalized it publicly.

There are ample other examples, but that one speaks volumes of why Shanahan lost the team's confidence. He didn't practice what he preached and as a result none of them did either. It wasn't replacing Plummer with Cutler, it wasn't how he handled Al Wilson, etc.. It was a combination of all the above and then a whole lot more (like defending that scum bag Travis Henry, changing DCs on an annual basis, bringing Ian Gold back on a big deal after he chose to bail on this team before, etc..)

The only relevance it has now though is that McDaniels is still left cleaning up the last of the bad apples and trying to change the mindset of the good guys led down the wrong path.

And for the record, I personally think Marshall is in the later group, and think McDaniels will make a legitimate attempt to win him over. A guy who is in the bad apple group though and who WON'T be back next year? Tony Scheffler. Guy gave up on the season and wasn't afraid to admit it just because he wasn't happy with his role. That's unprofessional and even John Elway who is normally quite reserved when it comes to Bronco football specifics called him out on it.

There are so many blatant errors, bias, and omissions in this post, I wouldn't even know where to start in destroying it. You all live in a rose colored world where everything looks exactly how you want to see it.

It's sad really. Wake up.

Taco John
02-06-2010, 01:13 PM
I'm continually amazed at how many people don't question the fact that 1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations within 24 hours of it happening 2. got in touch with Cutler immediately (when the owner of this franchise apparently couldn't do that) and 3. had a host of media interviews scheduled almost instantly, with what amounted to prepared statements lined up and ready to go for those media interviews.


It's kind of embarassing how much FAIL you operate on.

1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations through agent channels. Other agents started to call him because teams started asking them to come up with deals to get Cutler in their cities. The agent was caught off guard.

2. It's called a cell phone. Of course an agent can get in touch with his client immediately.

3. Cutler started receiving calls from the media asking about his reactions to the trade. You would have to be completely oblivious to what a "prepared statement" is to believe he had what he was saying "lined up and ready to go." I doubt that you've worked in PR if you believe that the stuff Cutler was saying was prepared.

Once Cutler's agent started receiving calls from other agents asking about the deal, he tried to call the Broncos. They refused his calls. They simply wouldn't take them. That is when Cutler started responding to the media's questions about this. Their first reaction was to talk to the Broncos to find out if it was true, but once the Broncos refused to take their calls, all they had to go on for information was what the other agents and the media was telling them.

It's pretty funny to me that you would say that you are "continually amazed" that people don't see things from your non-factual and completely oblivious position.

Taco John
02-06-2010, 01:19 PM
Bus Cook has had two other big time QB clients, Brett Favre and Steve McNair. At some point in both of their careers he orchestrated similar scenarios to get his client out of town and to a preferred destination.

You seriously believe that Brett Favre wanted out of Green Bay? He was just dying to go to the Jets, his "preferred destination?" Same with McNair? He was just dying to get out of Tennessee for his "preferred destination" of Baltimore? Baltimore dude?

Your house of cards is built out of cards dude.

Cito Pelon
02-06-2010, 03:21 PM
It's kind of embarassing how much FAIL you operate on.

1. Cutler's agent found out about these allegations through agent channels. Other agents started to call him because teams started asking them to come up with deals to get Cutler in their cities. The agent was caught off guard.

2. It's called a cell phone. Of course an agent can get in touch with his client immediately.

3. Cutler started receiving calls from the media asking about his reactions to the trade. You would have to be completely oblivious to what a "prepared statement" is to believe he had what he was saying "lined up and ready to go." I doubt that you've worked in PR if you believe that the stuff Cutler was saying was prepared.

Once Cutler's agent started receiving calls from other agents asking about the deal, he tried to call the Broncos. They refused his calls. They simply wouldn't take them. That is when Cutler started responding to the media's questions about this. Their first reaction was to talk to the Broncos to find out if it was true, but once the Broncos refused to take their calls, all they had to go on for information was what the other agents and the media was telling them.

It's pretty funny to me that you would say that you are "continually amazed" that people don't see things from your non-factual and completely oblivious position.

Cutler or Bus Cook talked to McDaniels the same day the rumors came out. Don't try to remake history.

barryr
02-06-2010, 03:56 PM
Shanahan's problems were terrible drafst with defensive players and being stuck picking up retreads in free agency on that side of the ball and this being a yearly routine, and not taking defense and special teams as seriously as he should have.

You don't hire a Slowik, whose defense with the Packers was shoddy and be hesitant to fure him after such a fiasco with his as DC of the Broncos. It wasn't just talent, the players every game looked confused and lost and didn't even know basic responsibilities. How can you go into any NFL game, much less about every game, with that problem?