Obama: we are going to cut spending, Senate: Raise the debt ceiling 2 Trillion

[Garcia Bronco]

****ing clowns.

[Rigs11]

thought he said starting in 2011?

[TheDave]

What a ****ing joke... at what point does this become economic treason?

[Hizaki]

****ing clowns.

It's all lies. Read my lips: “I did not sleep with that woman” or better yet “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction”. Not just the current president, but most politicians in both parties. They lie to calm the masses down and then do the exact opposite of what they promised. It is pretty obvious if they repeat a lie enough times most people will believe it, and will start parroting it.

[Bronx33]

What a ****ing joke... at what point does this become economic treason?

We past that point some time ago..

[rastaman]

****ing clowns.

Why not repeal the Reagan tax cuts by changing the marginal tax rate for all income over $5.0 million back to where it was in 1980, which was income over $5.0 million are taxed at 77%.

[Garcia Bronco]

Why not repeal the Reagan tax cuts by changing the marginal tax rate for all income over $5.0 million back to where it was in 1980, which was income over $5.0 million are taxed at 77%.

because a 77 percent tax rate is ****ing tyranny. He's a tip stop the federal governemnt spending on anything not related to national security. That's all they should ever be concerned with: National defense

[TheDave]

It's all lies. Read my lips: “I did not sleep with that woman” or better yet “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction”. Not just the current president, but most politicians in both parties. They lie to calm the masses down and then do the exact opposite of what they promised. It is pretty obvious if they repeat a lie enough times most people will believe it, and will start parroting it.

Hey maybe we could just go to the gold standard... ;)

[rastaman]

because a 77 percent tax rate is ****ing tyranny. He's a tip stop the federal governemnt spending on anything not related to national security. That's all they should ever be concerned with: National defense

The marginal tax rate averaged btwn 90-77% btwn 1933-1980. Where was the mythical Republican Cry Baby tyranny? Despite tax rates this high on income counting inflation ranged at $5.0 Million, the U.S. economy flourished btwn 1947-1981. Infact the U.S. was not a debtor nation, and was actually loaning money around the world instead of becoming a borrowing nation and a service sector nation that no longer manufactures and produces products. WE DON'T MAKE ANYTING ANYMORE nor do have we/do we maintain and expand our infrastructrue. And its all b/c of greed and the Ray-Gun Tax cuts.

Also, the Corporate National Defense-War Department should be trimmed by 50%! There is no justification to spend $900 billion a year for Republican Corporate Military Industrialize Complex rip offs!

Both repealing the Republican Ray-gun tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans and cutting the Republican War Department by 50 percent, the U.S. treasury will gain over $600-$700 Billion annually in revenue alone!

[Hizaki]

Hey maybe we could just go to the gold standard... ;)

I would be more than delighted :P

[cutthemdown]

Why not repeal the Reagan tax cuts by changing the marginal tax rate for all income over $5.0 million back to where it was in 1980, which was income over $5.0 million are taxed at 77%.

Ok dude we get it. You post this in every friggin thread. Are you kidding us all? It's ****ing annoying. Rastawoman more like it. Friggin nag.

[Hizaki]

Both repealing the Republican Ray-gun tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans and cutting the Republican War Department by 50 percent, the U.S. treasury will gain over $600-$700 Billion annually in revenue alone!

Rasta, give it up already. You know as well as most of everyone that neither party will give up the idea of the Military-Industrial Complex. They will continue the wars, the spending and will continue to squeeze the little man. You need to detach yourself from your party, because even the blind can see that this administration is continuing in the footsteps of the last. Is it really that hard to wake up to this fact? The MIC, corporations and the big banks that run this country won’t allow it any other way.

[cutthemdown]

I would be more than delighted :P

So a question. Let's say we switched to gold....you do agree that would mean gold goes way way up in value right? If that's so would everyone have to turn in there gold to make a switch. For instance would all the people holding the gold instantly become rich, and those that didn't screwed. Or do the gold holders have to turn there gold in?

[TheDave]

So a question. Let's say we switched to gold....you do agree that would mean gold goes way way up in value right? If that's so would everyone have to turn in there gold to make a switch. For instance would all the people holding the gold instantly become rich, and those that didn't screwed. Or do the gold holders have to turn there gold in?

Remember... Al the gold ever mined in the world is only worth about $5 Trillion*.


*assuming todays prices of about $1,050.00 per oz.

[Garcia Bronco]

The marginal tax rate averaged btwn 90-77% btwn 1933-1980. Where was the mythical Republican Cry Baby tyranny? Despite tax rates this high on income counting inflation ranged at $5.0 Million, the U.S. economy flourished btwn 1947-1981. Infact the U.S. was not a debtor nation, and was actually loaning money around the world instead of becoming a borrowing nation and a service sector nation that no longer manufactures and produces products. WE DON'T MAKE ANYTING ANYMORE nor do have we/do we maintain and expand our infrastructrue. And its all b/c of greed and the Ray-Gun Tax cuts.

Also, the Corporate National Defense-War Department should be trimmed by 50%! There is no justification to spend $900 billion a year for Republican Corporate Military Industrialize Complex rip offs!

Both repealing the Republican Ray-gun tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans and cutting the Republican War Department by 50 percent, the U.S. treasury will gain over $600-$700 Billion annually in revenue alone!

Somebody has to defend you right to say the crap you do, LA. So don't how much money we are spending on the big stick. It's to protect your sorry arse.

[Hizaki]

So a question. Let's say we switched to gold....you do agree that would mean gold goes way way up in value right? If that's so would everyone have to turn in there gold to make a switch. For instance would all the people holding the gold instantly become rich, and those that didn't screwed. Or do the gold holders have to turn there gold in?

No you wouldn’t have to turn in your gold if you have any. Refer to this from the other thread:

“Second (as in the second step towards establishing a GS): Permit gold to be actively bought, sold, traded, imported, exported. To prevent the U.S. government from exerting undue influence, it should stay out of the market for the time being.”

People holding gold would definitely be better off than ones stuck with paper. No question about it. But even if we don’t go to a gold standard your US dollars will soon be worthless, especially if we continue our monetary policies. The dollar lost 95% of its value since the creation of the FED in 1913 and we are inflating like there is no tomorrow.

And what would most of us lose? How many people have significant cash savings in the US? Most people are in debt up to their ears.

Price of gold would most likely go up and at one point stabilize. Also, remember that there would not be a sudden switch to gold. There would be competing currencies for a while to ease the transition. It is not a one and done process. Refer to these steps:

“Third: Oscillations in the price of gold would diminish in time and the “price” would tend to stabilize. At that point a new dollar-to-gold ratio could be established and a new legal parity decreed. No one can know what the new dollar-to-gold ratio would be. However, it is likely that it would stabilize a little above the then-current world price of gold, whatever that might be.
Fourth: Once a new legal ratio is established and the dollar is newly defined in terms of gold, the U.S. government and the U.S. Mints may enter the market, buying and selling gold and dollars at the new parity, and minting and selling gold coins of specified weights and fineness. Gold might well circulate side by side with other moneys, as it did during the fiat money inflation time of the French Revolution, so that parallel moneys would develop, easing the transition to gold.”

I have to leave for the day and not sure when I’ll get back in front of a computer but I’ll get back to you and Dave either during the weekend or next week.

[cutthemdown]

Remember... Al the gold ever mined in the world is only worth about $5 Trillion*.


*assuming todays prices of about $1,050.00 per oz.

exactly. The article in National Geographic on gold stated that in all of time, only enough gold to fill 5 olympic sized swimming pools has been mined.

Could you imagine what would happen to the gold mining industry if you made gold worth that? You could forget about Africa and South America. Russia/China/USA would carve them up like Christmas turkey.

I was hoping he would try to answer. Obviously he has no answer. His answer is somehow we could make all that wealth represented by a finite amount of gold. It just makes no sense.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That's funny - I don't remember GB expressing "concern" about debt during the Bush years when the court-selected pinhead was creating more debt than every other American president combined.

[rastaman]

Rasta, give it up already. You know as well as most of everyone that neither party will give up the idea of the Military-Industrial Complex. They will continue the wars, the spending and will continue to squeeze the little man. You need to detach yourself from your party, because even the blind can see that this administration is continuing in the footsteps of the last. Is it really that hard to wake up to this fact? The MIC, corporations and the big banks that run this country won’t allow it any other way.

I'd beg to differ with you. We can ill-afford to have a defeatus attitude, we should all join in solidarity change our predicament? We the People find ourselves in this precarious situation b/c we have allowed ourselves to be conqured and divided over wede issues, while the powers that be continue to move forward with their serfdom predatory capitalistic agenda.

The MIC, corporations and the big banks own the Masses in this country b/c the voters with the income btwn minimum wage and $150K, have allowed themselves to be conquered and divided.

The problem(s) lie with the voters in this country. The MIC, wall street, incumbent politicians, bankers, and the wealthiest 2% only get away with what the People in this country allow them to get away with.

[rastaman]

Somebody has to defend you right to say the crap you do, LA. So don't how much money we are spending on the big stick. It's to protect your sorry arse.

GB SHUT UP! It doesn't take $900 billion in defense spending to defend my rights. Only your dumb ass belives that Republican Facsist Bull Crap!

So try another Republican Defense-Pentagon Propaganda talking point lie.

[rastaman]

Ok dude we get it. You post this in every friggin thread. Are you kidding us all? It's ****ing annoying. Rastawoman more like it. Friggin nag.

You Dong Sucking Reagan Nomics Jack Azz! The U.S. finds itself in the economic, financial disaster b/c of 25 plus years of the Reagan tax cuts! How many 10's of trillions of dollars have been squandered on the wealthiest 2% and the MIC since the 80's.

These greedy Corporate Facist mother F*@kers (you grovel down to) have not re-invested back into a America. They have used the tax breaks to inrich themselves and gain more power. Why do you think our infrastructure, the debt, deficits, trade inbalances, the dismantling of our manufacturing base all started from and continues today!

Its b/c of Corporate Republican Predatory Reagan Nomic....you Jack Ass!

Wake the F*@k up you skirt wearing Reagan-Republican Corporate
Transvestite.

CORPORATE REPUBLICAN REAGAN NOMICS ARE RUINING AMERICA!

[Garcia Bronco]

GB SHUT UP! It doesn't take $900 billion in defense spending to defend my rights. Only your dumb ass belives that Republican Facsist Bull Crap!



Without the military might of the US, you'd have no rights. Further we spend more on medicare, medicaid, and SS than we do on defense spending.

[rastaman]

It's all lies. Read my lips: “I did not sleep with that woman” or better yet “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction”. Not just the current president, but most politicians in both parties. They lie to calm the masses down and then do the exact opposite of what they promised. It is pretty obvious if they repeat a lie enough times most people will believe it, and will start parroting it.

So what are your proposals/suggestions "Young Jet-Eye", besides continuing behaving as a dis-organized cynic??

[rastaman]

Without the military might of the US, you'd have no rights. Further we spend more on medicare, medicaid, and SS than we do on defense spending.

So again how do you justify the spending of over $5.6 trillion dollars over the next 7 years by the MIC! After the Cold War ended and with no other conventional Industrialized Army as our foe since the 90's, how do you defend the Pentagon and the MIC spending on average $700 billion annually over the last 16 years? Thats over $11 trillion dollars....you Bozo Knuckle Dragging Warmongering Republican idiot. How do you justify this maddness?

[Rohirrim]

Try to remember the reason for the debt.

[Garcia Bronco]

So again how do you justify the spending of over $5.6 trillion dollars over the next 7 years by the MIC! After the Cold War ended and with no other conventional Industrialized Army as our foe since the 90's, how do you defend the Pentagon and the MIC spending on average $700 billion annually over the last 16 years? Thats over $11 trillion dollars....you Bozo Knuckle Dragging Warmongering Republican idiot. How do you justify this maddness?

Just because the "war" stopped, that doesn't mean that we quit getting better.

[Garcia Bronco]

Try to remember the reason for the debt.

I do. A congress with little to no sense of credits and debits.

[rastaman]

Without the military might of the US, you'd have no rights. Further we spend more on medicare, medicaid, and SS than we do on defense spending.

So again how do you justify the spending of over $5.6 trillion dollars over the next 7 years by the MIC! After the Cold War ended and with no other conventional Industrialized Army as our foe since the 90's, how do you defend the Pentagon and the MIC spending on average $700 billion annually over the last 16 years? Thats over $11 trillion dollars....you Bozo Knuckle Dragging Warmongering Republican idiot. How do you justify this maddness?

[rastaman]

I do. A congress with little to no sense of credits and debits.

Geeee Whiz GB are you talking about The Congress from 1986-Present! 8')

[rastaman]

Just because the "war" stopped, that doesn't mean that we quit getting better.

Hey Bozo :clown: what the F*@k are you talking about moron! Who are you warmongering arm chair Chicken Ass Conservatives afraid of! How do you Low-Lying Fruity conservatives justify spending hard earned working American tax payers dollars of 10's of trillions of dollars over a phantom enemy?

$5.6 trillion dollars over the next 7 years by the MIC and another $2.1 trillion with the Reagan Tax Cuts! And since the 90's , how do you Warmongering Conservative murderers justify squanding over $11 trillions over the last 16 years.

Add it all up Dumb Ass if you add it all up from 93-018 the expenditures by the MIC and the Pentagon we are talking a grand total (that we know of) of over $16 Trillion and counting!

You add to the fact that the Reagan Tax cuts for the wealthy 2% and their illegal offshore tax heavens have cost the American tax payers and treasury in revenue at minimum $300 billion annually over the last 23 years; do the math we are talking over $7.0 trillion.

Yet you so called Fiscal Conservatives are crying and snivelling over trillion dollar deficits? You Righties have mis-spent and squandered over $23 trillion of our hard working Tax payer dollars, as well of having taken away $23 trillion from the treasury over the last 23 years.

Gee F@*king Whez Li'l Abner no wonder America is going broke. All the wealth of this country has been squandered on the Reagan Tax Cuts for Corporations and the richiest 2% and the MIC!

[Garcia Bronco]

Geeee Whiz GB are you talking about The Congress from 1986-Present! 8')

From FDR on.

[Garcia Bronco]

Hey Bozo :clown: what the F*@k are you talking about moron! Who are you warmongering arm chair Chicken Ass Conservatives afraid of! How you Low-Lying Fruity conservatives justify spending hard working American tax payers dollars of 10's of trillions of dollars over a phantom enemy?

You are the phantom

[rastaman]

You are the phantom

Come on Fiscal Conservative Fence Straddling Independent Garcia, please explain and justify the wastefull spending of tax payers money for $5.6 trillion dollars over the next 7 years by the MIC and another $2.1 trillion with the Reagan Tax Cuts! And since the 90's , how do you Warmongering Conservative murderers justify squanding over $11 trillions over the last 16 years.

Add it all up Dumb Ass if you add it all up from 93-018 the expenditures by the MIC and the Pentagon we are talking a grand total (that we know of) of over $16 Trillion and counting!

You add to the fact that the Reagan Tax cuts for the wealthy 2% and their illegal offshore tax heavens have cost the American tax payers and treasury in revenue at minimum $300 billion annually over the last 23 years; do the math we are talking over $7.0 trillion.

Yet you so called Fiscal Conservatives are crying and snivelling over trillion dollar deficits? You Righties have mis-spent and squandered over $23 trillion of our hard working Tax payer dollars, as well of having taken away $23 trillion from the treasury over the last 23 years.

Gee F@*king Whez Li'l Abner no wonder America is going broke. All the wealth of this country has been squandered on the Reagan Tax Cuts for Corporations and the richiest 2% and the MIC!

[TexanBob]

I'd beg to differ with you. We can ill-afford to have a defeatus attitude, we should all join in solidarity change our predicament? We the People find ourselves in this precarious situation b/c we have allowed ourselves to be conqured and divided over wede issues, while the powers that be continue to move forward with their serfdom predatory capitalistic agenda.


Hilarious!

If it's "wede issues", I'm guessing you're in full-scale surrender to them.

[watermock]

Don't worry, we gave the investment banks of the fed 23 trillion last year, at zero interest...

We are going to be fine...

We can float the boat for another 10 years...

[cutthemdown]

Rasta you don't get it. You fall behind Russia and China in military technology and we could be in big big trouble.

We have to maintain control of the oceans that's a huge huge priority. Whoever controls the oceans and the air, controls the world.

It takes big money to maintain that, but being top dogs comes with a lot of perqs

[TheDave]

Rasta you don't get it. You fall behind Russia and China in military technology and we could be in big big trouble.

We have to maintain control of the oceans that's a huge huge priority. Whoever controls the oceans and the air, controls the world.

It takes big money to maintain that, but being top dogs comes with a lot of perqs

I disagree... continue to be in control of the worlds economies and "war" is not nearly as important.

the fact is we spend more monies on the military than the rest of the world combined. Cutting it 30% - 50% (over several years) does not put us in jeopardy of being taken over.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/gop-two-faced-no-no.jpg
I have an idea - f_ck what they want.
Just do whatever you want, like Bush did for 8 years,
and tell the no-to-everything bastards to go pound sand.
I wish the Democrats had a leader.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/space-cadet.jpg

[Hizaki]

I was hoping he would try to answer. Obviously he has no answer. His answer is somehow we could make all that wealth represented by a finite amount of gold. It just makes no sense.

Cut,

Your and Dave’s insistence that there is “not enough gold in the world” to support our country’s wealth or our economy shows how misguided you are on this subject. Once again, I would have to write a technical paper on how to return to a gold standard, but since I don’t have the time I will keep it short and simple.

In an economy units of exchange represent an arbitrary amount of wealth. Simply put, if you have 50 units of currency and 100 units of wealth then 1 unit of currency represents 2 units of wealth. As your economy grows and your nation’s wealth increases (let’s say it doubles to 200 units) you won’t need more units of currency to represent this. What will happen is the purchasing power of your money will increase (double in this example). This is a good thing and one that every healthy, growing economy should experience. In other words, any volume of currency can represent any amount of wealth. There are of course practical limitations to this, as it would be difficult to use a currency when either a ton of it or 1/100 milligrams of it would be needed to make a transaction.

The problem in the US is that the FED inflates our money supply at will and this creates boom and bust cycles. We need to get the government and the privately owned FED out of our money production. The printing presses have to be stopped and the FED abolished. Let the free market decide what and how much of a commodity should be used for exchange. In the long run, as history has thought us, the market would undoubtedly settle on gold.

Now I would like to go back to Dave’s earlier questions as to how would we be able to go back to a gold standard. I would like to mention that these are all begged questions to begin with.

•How would we obtain all the gold to represent our wealth or how would we contract our economy to adjust to a gold standard?
We wouldn’t need to as pointed out above.

•Disadvantage to American companies because we would be on the gold standard.
Once again, there would be no disadvantage just because the US would be on a gold standard. US companies are not capitalized by a single currency. They can do business in Yuan in China or in Yen in Japan. Why would this have to be different under a US gold standard? Companies can accept whatever form of payment they want when conducting business. Some companies could buy their product with euro for example and sell them in gold here in the US. Other companies might insist on purchasing their merchandise in gold and sell them for gold.

I am a big advocate of Rothbard’s idea of taking US liabilities, dividing them by the amount of gold the government holds and arriving at the conversion rate that way. As pointed out in an article I posted earlier this would cause a sudden inflation, but banks would have 100% reserves for their outstanding deposits.

Since this whole debate came up in a thread on Ron Paul, I would like to mention that Dr. Paul is suggesting free currency competition in the US, not a straight-out return to a gold standard.

•The first step being abolishing legal tender laws
•The second step would be to eliminate laws that prohibit the operation of private mints
•The final step is to eliminate capital gains and sales taxes on gold and silver coins

Here is the article for your reference:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul434.html

I am done debating this subject for the time being, because there are other topics I would like to discuss but my time to do it is very limited. Dave, sorry about your nephew, I read about it in the “bar fight” thread on the main discussion. It was the honorable thing to do and my hat’s off to the guy for sticking to his principles.

[TheDave]

Cut,

Your and Dave’s insistence that there is “not enough gold in the world” to support our country’s wealth or our economy shows how misguided you are on this subject. Once again, I would have to write a technical paper on how to return to a gold standard, but since I don’t have the time I will keep it short and simple.



Since you chose not to answer this in the other thread (http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=88926&page=2), we can try it again here...


This is such a frustrating argument... Your own source agrees that it is likely impossible to accomplish at non market value prices. Additionally, I have provided actual, undeniable proof that this is impossible to accomplish at market value.

Let me post this again, these are the actual estimates of the ENTIRE gold supply in the world. (Like the phrase says: All the gold in the world)


Quote:
4,800,000,000 seems like a lot of gold and at todays prices of $1089.64 it would be worth a whopping 5,230,272,000,000 -or- $5.23 Trillion dollars.

Sounds like a lot of money... until you compare it to real life.

2008 GDP = $14.2 Trillion and that does not count the additional $8-900 billion that is floating in circulation or the $12.3 trillion worth of debt that would need to be addressed or some portion of the $1.6 trillion that trades hands on Wall Street every day.

Again, the author admits you can not inflate or deflate the price of gold to fix this problem... yet a few paragraphs later comes out with this head scratcher.


Quote:
In the first place, there is no shortage of gold. The size of the world’s population, and the extent of production and trade are immaterial; any amount of money will always serve all society’s needs.

That is a blatantly false statement. If a bushel of crops requires 100 gallons of water to grow and there is not enough water available, it is intellectually dishonest not to mention a bit crazy, to say the required amount of water is immaterial.

I have always wondered if Austrian Economics are specifically for the mathmaticly challenged. Statemnts like the above are helping to solidify my opinion.

Please explain to me how $5 Trillion dollars worth of gold can support an economy that produces $15 Trillion annually?

[Rohirrim]

http://www.bartcop.com/gop-two-faced-no-no.jpg
I have an idea - f_ck what they want.
Just do whatever you want, like Bush did for 8 years,
and tell the no-to-everything bastards to go pound sand.
I wish the Democrats had a leader.

This.

[Hizaki]

Since you chose not to answer this in the other thread (http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=88926&page=2), we can try it again here...

Did you even read past the first paragraph of my previous post? Try reading it again (the whole body this time). It is not impossible to return to a gold standard nor is it impossible to install competing currencies. It is pretty simple in fact as long as you stop the printing presses, get government out of money production and let the market do the work.

Look I am done arguing about this subject. If your beliefs are so strong, go to an Austrian forum and try debating there, I am sure you'll have a lot of fun.

[TheDave]

Did you even read past the first paragraph of my previous post? Try reading it again (the whole body this time). It is not impossible to return to a gold standard nor is it impossible to install competing currencies. It is pretty simple in fact as long as you stop the printing presses, get government out of money production and let the market do the work.

Look I am done arguing about this subject. If your beliefs are so strong, go to an Austrian forum and try debating there, I am sure you'll have a lot of fun.

Sorry, but those quotes were from your sources... Maybe you should find new sources.

But I have to admit, this is very typical of a ron paul suporter... as soon as they run into someone who asks for details about their belief system they declare they are "Done arguing"