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View Full Version : Can Kyle Orton take his Game to Another Level?


rastaman
01-29-2010, 06:48 AM
Can Kyle Orton take his Game to Another Level? I believe he can!

What are my suggestions? Simple, if Orton is going to be the Broncos QB over the next two seasons or longer here's is what needs to happen.

Starting with this offseason after the SB and Pro Bowl Orton and his merry band of WR's need to stay in FLA. and assemble together and work out together especially with Royal. Orton needs to work on his confidence, his foot work and his timing with his WR's. The Broncos WR's (especially 2nd year receivers) need to run routes and get in sync with Orton until they have nightmares in their sleep! Orton and his Receivers need to study game tape until they are cross-eyed.

Speaking of Ortons foot work.....he needs to do agility work outs with ankle weights on (at least 10lbs) and a 5lb wrist weight on his throwing arm. He needs to practice rapid drop back plays wearing ankle weights with his receivers running slant patterns and deep routes and Orton working on connecting and throwing the ball accurately.

Orton also needs agility drills (while wearing ankle weights) that include moving around in the pocket to buy more time against the pass rush, with his WR's running slant patterns and Kyle simple needs to throw and complete passes accurately.

Orton while wearing those 10lb ankle weights needs to simmulate dropping back to pass and pull the ball down and run for 5 or 10 yards to simmulate running for a 1st down.

Orton needs to run series of 20-30yd sprints on the balls of his feet while wearing 10 lb ankle weights to work on his speed.

After having trained wearing ankle weights during the off season by the time training camp starts Orton will be remarkable faster in the pocket and running 5-10 yards, which should help him extend plays.

Finally, Orton needs to work on arm strength! I would suggest Orton invest in 5lb wrist weights and wear them in the off season during passing drills.

These small additions will add strength with his throwing b/c the weights will help strengthen his wrist and shoulder. He takes the wrist weights off and the football will feel lighter thus enhancing his arm strength.

Lets discuss.

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 06:57 AM
well that would be great but I belive he is drinking jack and chasing pussy..

jhns
01-29-2010, 07:03 AM
I hope he does work extra this offseason with some receivers. Cutler did. Marshall did it. Sheffler did it. Everyone wants to worship Orton for being such a team player, unlike the guys I just listed. Well, let's see him show at least the same dedication as all the selfish, hate the team, guys that everyone hates on.

TheDave
01-29-2010, 07:08 AM
He is what he is... What we need to do is improve the team around him.

Unfortunately the change in scheme will require a rebuild of the offensive line (especially the interior). It also looks like we will have to deal with the loss of BMarsh. Assuming we can improve our line, especially run blocking and replace Marshall... Orton should be good enough to get us into the playoffs.

After that, who knows...

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 07:09 AM
Orton can do it I still like him . He does need to learn more of the system I want him a josh to work .

I was kind of joking above..

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 07:10 AM
He is what he is... What we need to do is improve the team around him.

Unfortunately the change in scheme will require a rebuild of the offensive line (especially the interior). It also looks like we will have to deal with the loss of BMarsh. Assuming we can improve our line, especially run blocking and replace Marshall... Orton should be good enough to get us into the playoffs.

After that, who knows...

not true he had no clue were to go when his 2nd option was coveredand you could see he got lost quickly and gave up on plays.

TheDave
01-29-2010, 07:20 AM
not true he had no clue were to go when his 2nd option was coveredand you could see he got lost quickly and gave up on plays.

How is it that people can tell how many reads a QB goes through by watching the crappy sideline POV that the networks provide?

At the very least, I think the issues with multiple reads is exagerated... but in any event that should improve somewhat with more experience in the system.

jhat01
01-29-2010, 07:31 AM
I think your wrist weights idea is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Sure, get out there and sling the ball around with a 5lb weight attached to your wrist! It will do wonders for your shoulder and elbow! You act like the dude has a weak arm. He doesn't. His accuracy on deep balls needs to improve sure, but his arm is fine. His mobility is a liability I agree 100%

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 07:32 AM
How is it that people can tell how many reads a QB goes through by watching the crappy sideline POV that the networks provide?

At the very least, I think the issues with multiple reads is exagerated... but in any event that should improve somewhat with more experience in the system.

that is the point . I think Orton can get way better . and a QB does not know a entire offense until about year 4 . Most people think that is knowing the paper work but really that is knowing were all the players are at all times. but IMO it is a hell of a lot more than somewhat.

If Orton is not signed rather quickly I am going to go with that broncos are not happy with him and are going to go Else were .

people don't get what 4 years in the same system will do for you look at Cassel really just a good QB that is rather raw but he knew NE's system inside and out . knowing were ever player on the field is and knowing the system inside and out is how you get way better .

SouthStndJunkie
01-29-2010, 07:33 AM
I don't think Kyle Orton can take his game to the next level.

He may show some subtle improvements next year, as he will be more comfortable in the offense....but he will always be a QB that will need a superior supporting cast to carry him and his average NFL talent.

SouthStndJunkie
01-29-2010, 07:37 AM
I hope he does work extra this offseason with some receivers. Cutler did. Marshall did it. Sheffler did it. Everyone wants to worship Orton for being such a team player, unlike the guys I just listed. Well, let's see him show at least the same dedication as all the selfish, hate the team, guys that everyone hates on.

Kyle Orton is probably throwing out routes to Jack Daniels right now and working on the route tree with Jimmy Beam several times a week.

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 07:39 AM
I don't think Kyle Orton can take his game to the next level.

He may show some subtle improvements next year, as he will be more comfortable in the offense....but he will always be a QB that will need a superior supporting cast to carry him and his average NFL talent base.

SSJ the good thing is we will know rather shortly if the broncos plan on Orton being a Bronco because he is no were near being polished so if for some reason he is not signed quickly...

TheDave
01-29-2010, 07:40 AM
that is the point . I think Orton can get way better . and a QB does not know a entire offense until about year 4 . Most people think that is knowing the paper work but really that is knowing were all the players are at all times. but IMO it is a hell of a lot more than somewhat.

If Orton is not signed rather quickly I am going to go with that broncos are not happy with him and are going to go Else were .

people don't get what 4 years in the same system will do for you look at Cassel really just a good QB that is rather raw but he knew NE's system inside and out . knowing were ever player on the field is and knowing the system inside and out is how you get way better .

Unfortunately, I think his complete lack of athleticism is always going to be a major hinderance to his game. No matter how good the offense is or how many options he has plays break down and it will be up to him to make a play.

I don't think he can do that consistantly.

vancejohnson82
01-29-2010, 07:40 AM
what happens when he tears his rotator cuff and acl because he is a walking weight machine?

HAT
01-29-2010, 07:41 AM
Yes.

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 07:55 AM
Unfortunately, I think his complete lack of athleticism is always going to be a major hinderance to his game. No matter how good the offense is or how many options he has plays break down and it will be up to him to make a play.

I don't think he can do that consistantly.

I do agree with you he will still need to make the play so I will tell you this it is with smarts this system is built on . so maybe this system is won with smart QBs and not brawn .

this year Orton was reeled in early because he was just heaving up footballs to what looked open WR not really knowing were the D was set up and hoping for the best. well yes you throw those plays but we just stopped. there was a reason we reeled him in and went with safe plays until Orton could be taught in the off season to know were all the coverage is and to know when to take those shots .

~Crash~
01-29-2010, 08:00 AM
Unfortunately, I think his complete lack of athleticism is always going to be a major hinderance to his game. No matter how good the offense is or how many options he has plays break down and it will be up to him to make a play.

I don't think he can do that consistantly.



Brady was as raw as it gets his first few years he was gangly and looked bad but he worked hard and worked with in himself. He has gotten better now but there was a time he looked like a total sissy.

WolfpackGuy
01-29-2010, 08:05 AM
He needs to save his arm.

That old rag only has so many throws in it.

TheDave
01-29-2010, 08:11 AM
Brady was as raw as it gets his first few years he was gangly and looked bad but he worked hard and worked with in himself. He has gotten better now but there was a time he looked like a total sissy.

True but we need to be REAL careful with the Brady/Orton comparisons... Brady is a freakishly accurate QB both long and short. Additionally, though he also lacks athleticism he is similar to Marino in his ability of move in the pocket.

Orton has very poor accuracy with the long ball and his ability to move in the pocket is embarrassing so far.

Can Orton improve these... sure. But he has a long ways to go to be average in either area.

DrFate
01-29-2010, 08:25 AM
Can someone point me to the magic formula that suddenly improves a quarterback going into his sixth year?

Thanks

SouthStndJunkie
01-29-2010, 08:29 AM
Can someone point me to the magic formula that suddenly improves a quarterback going into his sixth year?

Thanks

<IMG SRC="http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL637/2498345/22431097/381950409.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com">

DrFate
01-29-2010, 08:33 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Nicely done, Junkman.

Br0nc0Buster
01-29-2010, 08:38 AM
Can someone point me to the magic formula that suddenly improves a quarterback going into his sixth year?

Thanks

not being coached by the Bears

There is a reason they dont have pro bowl qbs.....ever

Br0nc0Buster
01-29-2010, 08:40 AM
Can he get better?
yes

He isnt all that athletic, but neither is tom Brady
He just needs to get more familiar with the offense, assuming Josh's system will work in the long haul

The offensive line is the weakest part of the offense right now
Our running game was atrocious

montrose
01-29-2010, 10:14 AM
I can tell you from watching Orton at Invesco that his biggest problem, IMO, isn't his arm or his athleticism. Is he top of the league? No, but good enough to win. His biggest problem was staring down his WRs and I can hope that will improve with time spent in the system. By the end of the season, with Orton on a bum ankle mind you, teams knew the Broncos OL sucked @$$ and they couldn't run the ball. I noticed the Raiders and Chiefs were stopping the run easily with just 7, sometimes 6, guys in the box as Moreno and Buckhalter were often being hit behind or at the LOS. If we cam improve that area that will instantly help Orton because by the end of the season we were trying to win by playing "sling it" with a guy not suited to do that. With another year in the system and an improved run game, I think Orton will suprise people. Franchise QB? No, but then again I see less than a handful of those guys in the entire league.

snowspot66
01-29-2010, 10:55 AM
I can tell you from watching Orton at Invesco that his biggest problem, IMO, isn't his arm or his athleticism. Is he top of the league? No, but good enough to win. His biggest problem was staring down his WRs and I can hope that will improve with time spent in the system. By the end of the season, with Orton on a bum ankle mind you, teams knew the Broncos OL sucked @$$ and they couldn't run the ball. I noticed the Raiders and Chiefs were stopping the run easily with just 7, sometimes 6, guys in the box as Moreno and Buckhalter were often being hit behind or at the LOS. If we cam improve that area that will instantly help Orton because by the end of the season we were trying to win by playing "sling it" with a guy not suited to do that. With another year in the system and an improved run game, I think Orton will suprise people. Franchise QB? No, but then again I see less than a handful of those guys in the entire league.

Have to agree with that.

If we could choose any QB in the league today for our QB going forward the only ones I would take would be Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers. I would prefer Rodgers.

Those are the best and youngest QB's in the League. There really aren't a lot of others.

Popps
01-29-2010, 11:12 AM
He is what he is... What we need to do is improve the team around him.
..

I think this is pretty close to the truth. We've definitely got to put a better performing line/running game in place for him to be successful.

That said, I think the natural inclination of any fan is to underestimate Orton because he doesn't look particularly compelling out there. But, he really is a smart, efficient QB. Until we have a real blue chip prospect, he's a great guy to have in place. The staff likes him, the players like him... and the fans reluctantly put up with him. I actually like him a lot, with the disclaimer that I do think he has limitations and I"m not positive he's the future answer for us.

That said, I posted on another thread that I believe he's a discount version of Kurt Warner. Before any slobs accuse me of saying he's in Warner's class... read the prior sentence again.

Here's a post from an earlier thread on how I think the best route for us is to look at Orton the way you'd look at Warner in terms of how you want to structure your offense...

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2715179&postcount=103

HAT
01-29-2010, 01:23 PM
Can someone point me to the magic formula that suddenly improves a quarterback going into his sixth year?

Thanks

Sure.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7282/career;_ylt=Ahrm7314Z0754wxUTO4cosT.uLYF

Year over year....He's upped his:

QBRating
Completion %
TD/INT ratio
Y/A
Y/C


Your welcome.

rastaman
01-29-2010, 02:35 PM
I think this is pretty close to the truth. We've definitely got to put a better performing line/running game in place for him to be successful.

That said, I think the natural inclination of any fan is to underestimate Orton because he doesn't look particularly compelling out there. But, he really is a smart, efficient QB. Until we have a real blue chip prospect, he's a great guy to have in place. The staff likes him, the players like him... and the fans reluctantly put up with him. I actually like him a lot, with the disclaimer that I do think he has limitations and I"m not positive he's the future answer for us.

That said, I posted on another thread that I believe he's a discount version of Kurt Warner. Before any slobs accuse me of saying he's in Warner's class... read the prior sentence again.

Here's a post from an earlier thread on how I think the best route for us is to look at Orton the way you'd look at Warner in terms of how you want to structure your offense...

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2715179&postcount=103

Slobs aside, as far as QB's go exactly who does Kyle Orton remind you of when it comes to QB's over the last 15-20 years?

Comparing Kyle Orton to Kurt Warner is a poor example or comparison b/c Warner has never played in a NE-McD offensive system-scheme. Also for the most part the first 15 games, McD didn't open up the playbook for Orton and had Kyle playing it safe with throwing high percentage safe throws consisting of dinks and dunks and bubble screens etc,. So one can say even Orton's passing PCT are inflated b/c of the low risk passing schemes.

However, the last game of the season with KC McD finally opened up the passing attack and we saw Orton throw two interceptions. Now had McD had the playbook open for Kyle for all 16 games, its a safe best to say Orton would have definitely thrown more interception. To conclude, with playoff implications on the line and the playbook opened up for Orton for first time in 16 weeks, Orton proved he could put up the yards but his decision making was suspect and he didn't possess the confidence to put the team on his shoulders to march and lead the Broncos to victory.

There were several occasions during the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season, Orton could have extended plays by taking off running to perhaps getting the crucial first downs. But only a QB with the a driving Will-to-Win would have made something happen with their feet. Unfortunately Orton hasn't shown a high degree of wanting to win. You won't see any Elway Esque "Hellicopters" runs out of Orton would the game, playoffs, or SB game on the line thats for sure.

Popps
01-29-2010, 02:55 PM
Slobs aside, as far as QB's go exactly who does Kyle Orton remind you of when it comes to QB's over the last 15-20 years?
.

I think I just posted that he reminds me of a poor man's Kurt Warner. Big, decent arm, smart... not mobile, needs protection... and would benefit from a system that allows him to get rid of the ball quickly.


Comparing Kyle Orton to Kurt Warner is a poor example or comparison b/c Warner has never played in a NE-McD offensive system-scheme. .

It's not a poor comparison at all. Watch the videos. Not only do they look similar in these two games, they ran a similar play selection. Beyond that, it's only a "comparison" in the sense that if we want to win with Orton... the model to look at is one that gives the QB maximum protection and allows him to use his smarts and knowledge of the system to succeed. Both Warner and Orton excel at throwing medium range passes. Obviously, Warner has a better arm... but not a night and day better arm.

McD didn't open up the playbook for Orton and had Kyle playing it safe with throwing high percentage safe throws consisting of dinks and dunks and bubble screens etc,..

Yea, I've heard the bubble screen thing around here a million times. I wonder how many times we actually ran that play.

Regardless of the length of the passes, Orton was efficient... and in the games I posted at random, Orton threw a wide variety of passes and succeeded at doing so. He's clearly capable of making medium range throws anywhere on the field. When he's been asked to do so, he's done so very well.



However, the last game of the season with KC McD finally opened up the passing attack and we saw Orton throw two interceptions.

Wrong again.

We didn't "open up" the passing game.

We HAD NO RUNNING GAME.

There's a big difference. Missing your #1 receiver and having your running game stuffed forces you to throw on every down. When your defense isn't stopping anyone, that just compounds that problem. (Remember last year?)

Orton had to throw WAY to many times for ANY QB in that game. He made a couple of bad throws, which is bound to happen to any QB who's forced to throw that much... when other teams KNOW you're going to throw.


There were several occasions during the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season, Orton could have extended plays by taking off running to perhaps getting the crucial first downs. .

He's painfully slow. He's not a runner. He also played on a ****ed up ankle in the 2nd half that definitely slowed him... and he took less chances running the ball.

Unfortunately Orton hasn't shown a high degree of wanting to win. .


Yea, you're right... him coming off of the bench in the 2nd half in a game when most people would have probably been on crutches wasn't him wanting to win.

Where the **** do you get that nonsense? His teammates love him because he DOES want to win so badly. You're not getting the right information.


You won't see any Elway Esque "Hellicopters" runs out of Orton would the game, playoffs, or SB game on the line thats for sure.

Really? He's not John Elway?

Stop the presses!



Look, Orton is what he is. If there's a better QB option out there, let's go get him. But, you're selling him as a bottom-tier QB and that's simply not the case.

As I said, the franchise is lucky to have him right now... because he can get the job done when things are in place around him, and that's not something most QBs can accomplish. We'll be able to continue to develop someone, and look for a QOTF, as well.

But, I don't see the point in rewriting the season so we can rip the guy. He played hard and helped us win some exciting games. He loves being a Bronco. He's our QB for now, and we'll continue trying to improve. But, I just don't see why we need to bash this guy with idiotic rhetoric.

Popps
01-29-2010, 03:00 PM
I will agree with one thing, though.... Orton could benefit from a hardcore conditioning program. Quickness CAN be improved, and he's a young guy. He looks like he's carrying a good deal of happy-weight, and could definitely improve his agility by changing his body make-up a bit. But, QBs have so much to work on... I'm guessing they rarely get that sort of training.

DenverBrit
01-29-2010, 03:00 PM
Brady was as raw as it gets his first few years he was gangly and looked bad but he worked hard and worked with in himself. He has gotten better now but there was a time he looked like a total sissy.

He took a couple of years to get comfortable in the NE scheme, Orton should be given the same opportunity.

However, bring in a a QB who can compete with Orton, not another Simms, but a real threat to his starting job.

rastaman
01-29-2010, 09:17 PM
I think I just posted that he reminds me of a poor man's Kurt Warner. Big, decent arm, smart... not mobile, needs protection... and would benefit from a system that allows him to get rid of the ball quickly.

It's not a poor comparison at all. Watch the videos. Not only do they look similar in these two games, they ran a similar play selection. Beyond that, it's only a "comparison" in the sense that if we want to win with Orton... the model to look at is one that gives the QB maximum protection and allows him to use his smarts and knowledge of the system to succeed. Both Warner and Orton excel at throwing medium range passes. Obviously, Warner has a better arm... but not a night and day better arm.

Orton had decent protection at times thru out the season. Kyle just had a problem of playing too safe and holding on to the ball too long. There were time where he missed his WR's when they were open. He either threw the ball behind his receivers or threw the ball in dirt or simple put the ball up for grabs or over threw his receivers. Also consider, Orton rarely hit his receivers on fly pattern or slants when his receivers were in full stride. And Warner was more accurate and threw intermediate passes with more zip.

Yea, I've heard the bubble screen thing around here a million times. I wonder how many times we actually ran that play. Regardless of the length of the passes, Orton was efficient... and in the games I posted at random, Orton threw a wide variety of passes and succeeded at doing so. He's clearly capable of making medium range throws anywhere on the field. When he's been asked to do so, he's done so very well.

Again! Orton showed great difficulty hitting his receivers in full stride either on slants and fly patterens or did not show consistent accuracy hitting receivers on deep routes. Bmarsh had to slow up or simple out jump the opposition on deep throws.

Wrong again. We didn't "open up" the passing game. We HAD NO RUNNING GAME. There's a big difference. Missing your #1 receiver and having your running game stuffed forces you to throw on every down. When your defense isn't stopping anyone, that just compounds that problem. (Remember last year?)


There is still a running debate on what happened to the Brocos running game/attack. Its my opinion that McD moved away from the zone blocking scheme of which the OL was designed for and elected to go with a power blocking scheme of which the OL wasn't designed. And of course not fully utilizing Hillis to help supplement the running attack when Moreno hit the rookie wall and when Buckhalter was injured (which was often), all spelled doom for the rushing attack. The fault lies with McD...the buck stops on his desk. Anyway w/o a viable consistent rushing attack, teams just simple stacked 8 in the box and dared Orton to beat them with his arm, of which Orton was unable to do.

Orton had to throw WAY to many times for ANY QB in that game. He made a couple of bad throws, which is bound to happen to any QB who's forced to throw that much... when other teams KNOW you're going to throw.

He's painfully slow. He's not a runner. He also played on a ****ed up ankle in the 2nd half that definitely slowed him... and he took less chances running the ball. Yea, you're right... him coming off of the bench in the 2nd half in a game when most people would have probably been on crutches wasn't him wanting to win. Where the **** do you get that nonsense? His teammates love him because he DOES want to win so badly. You're not getting the right information.

Chill out Pops! Just b/c everyone isn't as optimistic about Orton as you are doesn't mean fans don't have the right to have doubts and be a constructive critic of Orton's 2009 season as the starting QB as a Denver Bronco. Remember, folks were already predicting you would have excuses for Orton's performance at the beginning of the 2009 season.

Now, yes Orton played injured and I applaude his efforts. However, injuries are apart of the game. As for Orton's running ability, you don't need to be a dynamic runner as a QB to become a difference maker with making something happen with your legs as an NFL QB.

Hence, this is where Orton can work the weak area of his lack of mobility in during the offseason with a agilitly coach. Did you not notice that Orton doesn't even lift his knees when attempting to run. Agility drills teaches how to lift your legs to get from point A to point B. You can tell Orton hasn't voluntarily worked with an agilitycoach.

Really? He's not John Elway? Stop the presses!

No keep the presses going! Are you telling me Orton does not have the running ability of a 38 year old QB who played his entire career without a knee ligament(s) in his right knee! Elway was 38 years old when he made the dramatic 9 yard run for the first down that ended in a helicopter play in the SB! Elway wasn't known for his blazing speed...But his heat, guts, determination and perserverence could not be measured. You do know Orton had countless of opportunities to make something happen with his 26 year old legs....but simple chose not to.

Look, Orton is what he is. If there's a better QB option out there, let's go get him. But, you're selling him as a bottom-tier QB and that's simply not the case.

Do you know for a fact what type of off season workout regimen Orton has attempted over the last 6 years to make him stronger in the areas he is weakest? Perhaps he has and perhaps he hasn't. Point is, if Orton hasn't thought outside the box to make better in terms of better foot work and enhance agility training to make himself quicker/faster, then shame on him. Orton has had multitudes of opportunities to hire strengthening and agility coaches to help him get better/proficient in the areas where he is weakest. Those are personal choices Orton failed to make.

As I said, the franchise is lucky to have him right now... because he can get the job done when things are in place around him, and that's not something most QBs can accomplish. We'll be able to continue to develop someone, and look for a QOTF, as well.

I wouldn't say we are lucky to have Orton. Its more so that we are stuck with Orton. You will find that during FA teams will not be breaking down the doors trying to bring Orton to their team as their starter. Also, Orton didn't get the job when you consider Denver went 2-8 down the stretch after starting 6-0.

But, I don't see the point in rewriting the season so we can rip the guy. He played hard and helped us win some exciting games. He loves being a Bronco. He's our QB for now, and we'll continue trying to improve. But, I just don't see why we need to bash this guy with idiotic rhetoric.

No one is riping or bashing Orton. It Is What It Is! We aren't rewritting the season. We are reveiwing the outcome of the 2009 season. Many fans will not be overly optimistic on what type of consistency and improvement Orton will provide forthe 2010 season as a 7 year veteran QB in the NFL.

HAT
01-29-2010, 09:45 PM
No one is riping or bashing Orton. It Is What It Is! We aren't rewritting the season. We are reveiwing the outcome of the 2009 season. Many fans will not be overly optimistic on what type of consistency and improvement Orton will provide forthe 2010 season as a 7 year veteran QB in the NFL

Lulz. :rofl:

maher_tyler
01-29-2010, 10:00 PM
LOL

At the thread title!!

I pray i'm wrong though!!

maher_tyler
01-29-2010, 10:06 PM
Unfortunately, I think his complete lack of athleticism is always going to be a major hinderance to his game. No matter how good the offense is or how many options he has plays break down and it will be up to him to make a play.

I don't think he can do that consistantly.

This! The dude is slow and has ****ty pocket awareness. On a windy day i bet he has a hard time staying on his feet...

Atwater His Ass
01-29-2010, 10:12 PM
oh boy, here we go with the Kurt Warner comparasions again.

broncolife
01-29-2010, 10:26 PM
well that would be great but I belive he is drinking jack and chasing p***Y..

This might be the reason why his wrists are so weak. Take the P***y away and force him to spank his monkey everyday to build up his wrist strength. I should be able to fling the ball 70 yards with my wrists workouts :)

Drek
01-30-2010, 01:27 AM
Finally, Orton needs to work on arm strength! I would suggest Orton invest in 5lb wrist weights and wear them in the off season during passing drills.


I generally agree with your OP but arm strength isn't nearly as much about the actual muscle in the arm as it is throwing mechanics and core strength.

Tom Brady went from a soft tosser to one of the better deep ball throwers in the league because he increased his core strength enough to deliver the ball well and his mechanics enough to actually reliably hit his target.

Kyle Orton's deep ball is the equivalent of a baseball pitcher who overthrows looking for extra MPH. He gets the ball deep, but his control of where it goes gets real spotty.

He needs to improve his core strength some so it doesn't take the same kind of effort to heave it deep, but more importantly he needs to work on his mechanics so that the ball goes where he wants it to.

The bright side is Josh McDaniels just happened to be the QB coach for Tom Brady when Brady made the same transition.

Franchise QB? No, but then again I see less than a handful of those guys in the entire league.

The problem is that those handful of franchise guys lock up at least half of the playoff spots in a given year.

The generalized terminology I apply to QBs is this:

below average/bad - not a guy who should be starting - This is Fatty Russell, the current Jake Delhomme. Pretty much every backup.

average - starter that your team should be actively looking to replace. Alex Smith in his second run with the 49ers, the Anderson/Quinn combo, etc.. Often guys with little to work with but who don't help the situation either.


good - good enough, i.e. a guy who can help you win in the regular season but won't be carrying you on deep playoff drives any time soon without significant help. This group contains guys like Orton, Schaub (largely docked due to injury problems) David Garrard, and Jay Cutler.


very good - a guy who wins games for you in the regular season and has the ability to win you some big playoff games, but not someone you can count on to perennially carry you into the second or third rounds of the playoffs. Guys like Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, and Eli Manning (won his title on the backs of his defense and running game).


elite/great - guys who carry their teams on their backs regularly, producing playoff births despite major weaknesses in other facets of the game and once in the playoffs could potentially get hot and deliver a title any given year. Your Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethslithberger, Drew Brees types.

You have a few tweeners in the very good to elite/great tier like Rivers and Aaron Rogers. Guys who've done it in the regular season but haven't shown it yet in the post-season by carrying their teams to big games. Drew Brees was one of these tweeners until just recently, getting his team to the big game.

Orton is good right now. I think the step up to very good is one he should be able to make for next year. But unless he makes a dramatic change in his play that will be his ceiling. Just just doesn't have a feel for the big play. Everything else he's got or can learn, but how often did he throw the check down instead of hitting the open guy 15 yards down field between coverage layers?

That said, not everyone gets to have a Manning or Brady. But if we want to be a perennial powerhouse we need one, and isn't that the ultimate goal.

He took a couple of years to get comfortable in the NE scheme, Orton should be given the same opportunity.

However, bring in a a QB who can compete with Orton, not another Simms, but a real threat to his starting job.

Exactly this. Orton is good enough for now. If he makes any real progression in his second year within the system and we improve the lines he'll be a very good starter. But we need to get looking for an elite replacement.

I'd like to see us acquire McDaniels' old protege Kevin O'Connell, if the Jets let him go. If not that then draft someone like Jarrett Brown, John Skelton, Tony Pike, or Sean Canfield. That way when the defense, OL, and running game all come together we'll have a worthwhile in house option.

That and I'm beginning to worry about Orton's ankles. Second season in a row with lost time due to an ankle injury. If that keeps up he's going to start losing what progress he's made throwing the ball because its damn hard to throw well if you can't plant and step into your throws without pain.

SouthStndJunkie
01-30-2010, 01:38 AM
oh boy, here we go with the Kurt Warner comparasions again.

Kurt Warner is one of the most accurate and precise passers I have ever seen....it's his biggest strength.

Kyle Orton is nowhere near as accurate of a passer as Kurt Warner.

rastaman
01-30-2010, 04:38 AM
I generally agree with your OP but arm strength isn't nearly as much about the actual muscle in the arm as it is throwing mechanics and core strength.

Tom Brady went from a soft tosser to one of the better deep ball throwers in the league because he increased his core strength enough to deliver the ball well and his mechanics enough to actually reliably hit his target.

Kyle Orton's deep ball is the equivalent of a baseball pitcher who overthrows looking for extra MPH. He gets the ball deep, but his control of where it goes gets real spotty.

He needs to improve his core strength some so it doesn't take the same kind of effort to heave it deep, but more importantly he needs to work on his mechanics so that the ball goes where he wants it to.

The bright side is Josh McDaniels just happened to be the QB coach for Tom Brady when Brady made the same transition.



The problem is that those handful of franchise guys lock up at least half of the playoff spots in a given year.

The generalized terminology I apply to QBs is this:

below average/bad - not a guy who should be starting - This is Fatty Russell, the current Jake Delhomme. Pretty much every backup.

average - starter that your team should be actively looking to replace. Alex Smith in his second run with the 49ers, the Anderson/Quinn combo, etc.. Often guys with little to work with but who don't help the situation either.


good - good enough, i.e. a guy who can help you win in the regular season but won't be carrying you on deep playoff drives any time soon without significant help. This group contains guys like Orton, Schaub (largely docked due to injury problems) David Garrard, and Jay Cutler.


very good - a guy who wins games for you in the regular season and has the ability to win you some big playoff games, but not someone you can count on to perennially carry you into the second or third rounds of the playoffs. Guys like Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, and Eli Manning (won his title on the backs of his defense and running game).


elite/great - guys who carry their teams on their backs regularly, producing playoff births despite major weaknesses in other facets of the game and once in the playoffs could potentially get hot and deliver a title any given year. Your Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethslithberger, Drew Brees types.

You have a few tweeners in the very good to elite/great tier like Rivers and Aaron Rogers. Guys who've done it in the regular season but haven't shown it yet in the post-season by carrying their teams to big games. Drew Brees was one of these tweeners until just recently, getting his team to the big game.

Orton is good right now. I think the step up to very good is one he should be able to make for next year. But unless he makes a dramatic change in his play that will be his ceiling. Just just doesn't have a feel for the big play. Everything else he's got or can learn, but how often did he throw the check down instead of hitting the open guy 15 yards down field between coverage layers?

That said, not everyone gets to have a Manning or Brady. But if we want to be a perennial powerhouse we need one, and isn't that the ultimate goal.



Exactly this. Orton is good enough for now. If he makes any real progression in his second year within the system and we improve the lines he'll be a very good starter. But we need to get looking for an elite replacement.

I'd like to see us acquire McDaniels' old protege Kevin O'Connell, if the Jets let him go. If not that then draft someone like Jarrett Brown, John Skelton, Tony Pike, or Sean Canfield. That way when the defense, OL, and running game all come together we'll have a worthwhile in house option.

That and I'm beginning to worry about Orton's ankles. Second season in a row with lost time due to an ankle injury. If that keeps up he's going to start losing what progress he's made throwing the ball because its damn hard to throw well if you can't plant and step into your throws without pain.

Excellent post! Rep!

rastaman
01-30-2010, 04:44 AM
Lulz. :rofl:

Hey Hog Head.....have you found any big enough HAT's to keep your head warm this winter? :spit:

HAT
01-30-2010, 04:56 AM
What is this 'winter' you speak of? Shorts and a t-shirt and heading out for a surf soon.

Nice try at deflecting though.

Now, please explain how 2010 will be Orton's 7th year?

This ought to be good.

rastaman
01-30-2010, 07:00 PM
What is this 'winter' you speak of? Shorts and a t-shirt and heading out for a surf soon.

Nice try at deflecting though.

Now, please explain how 2010 will be Orton's 7th year?

This ought to be good.

Surf's up Dude! Watch out for SHARKS---you might have to use your deflecting skills.....hate to hear about ya on cable news meeting your untimely demise or you're called Nubs b/c you are missing a limb or two. You be careful now.....ya here!

Oh by the way....2010 will be Ortey's 6th season. So I was off by one year! Big F*@king deal.

BroncoMan4ever
01-30-2010, 07:37 PM
Slobs aside, as far as QB's go exactly who does Kyle Orton remind you of when it comes to QB's over the last 15-20 years?

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but if you truly examine styles of play, attitudes, general athletic ability, you can say that Orton's game is comparable to Brady. Now with Orton he until last season was never in a situation to play like Brady. look in NE, generally really good protection, good offensive coaching, always a solid running game, always good receiving weapons. Orton hasn't had any of that until last season and his play while not incredible or MVP calibur last season showed that if you give the guy some help and if you allow him to grow in the system, he can get a hell of a lot better

However, the last game of the season with KC McD finally opened up the passing attack and we saw Orton throw two interceptions. Now had McD had the playbook open for Kyle for all 16 games, its a safe best to say Orton would have definitely thrown more interception. To conclude, with playoff implications on the line and the playbook opened up for Orton for first time in 16 weeks, Orton proved he could put up the yards but his decision making was suspect and he didn't possess the confidence to put the team on his shoulders to march and lead the Broncos to victory.

That is very stupid how you looked at that last game. the final games of the season, our opponents knew we couldn't run the ball, so instead of worrying about the run it became all about getting to Orton, and dropping extra defenders into coverage limiting his passing options. McDaniels didn't open up the passing game, we just couldn't run and then the fact that we fell behind left him with no options but to chuck around the field. any QB is going to have mistakes when they are placed in a position to have to throw the ball as much as he did that game, and with no help. you can't expect a guy to play like Peyton with defenders crashing in on him and no running game to take some pressure off.



There were several occasions during the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season, Orton could have extended plays by taking off running to perhaps getting the crucial first downs. But only a QB with the a driving Will-to-Win would have made something happen with their feet. Unfortunately Orton hasn't shown a high degree of wanting to win. You won't see any Elway Esque "Hellicopters" runs out of Orton would the game, playoffs, or SB game on the line thats for sure.

Orton is not a runner, he never was in his entire career. But even the little bit he would have run was greatly hindered by the fact that he played the 2nd half of the season with a badly sprained ankle.

So, him coming back ahead of schedule and playing the 1st quarter of the season with a broken finger that came out of the skin on his throwing hand, or him coming into a game in the 2nd half with an ankle that would have had most people on crutches to try and bring the team back and win a game that Simms farted away and then playing the rest of the year on that same badly injured ankle, wasn't a sign of a QB who wants to win? That isn't a QB who wants to win, or do everything he can to give for his team.

you truly are an idiot Rasta

oubronco
01-30-2010, 07:40 PM
Can he get better?
yes

He isnt all that athletic, but neither is tom Brady
He just needs to get more familiar with the offense, assuming Josh's system will work in the long haul

The offensive line is the weakest part of the offense right now
Our running game was atrocious

Orton isn't near as accurate as Brady and can't throw the deep ball to save his life

BroncoMan4ever
01-30-2010, 07:48 PM
Orton isn't near as accurate as Brady and can't throw the deep ball to save his life

look at Brady's 1st few seasons, the critiques on on him were very similar to those of Brady right now. after a few seasons of work on his accuracy, and some strength training to get his core strength up so that he could make those deep throws. put Orton into that same kind of training and give him some time and the results can be damn good.

i'm not saying he is going to go out and become a pro bowler, win 3 super bowls and toss 50 TDs, but if he is helped in his career the way Brady was early in his, he can be a very good QB to lead this franchise for the next several years.

Pontius Pirate
01-30-2010, 07:50 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QnkAZmDgdlE/Sm5NwYGjrTI/AAAAAAAAASw/2SsuVaSB2vI/s400/CN-WNL.jpg

BroncoSojia
01-30-2010, 07:52 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QnkAZmDgdlE/Sm5NwYGjrTI/AAAAAAAAASw/2SsuVaSB2vI/s400/CN-WNL.jpg

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

oubronco
01-30-2010, 07:56 PM
look at Brady's 1st few seasons, the critiques on on him were very similar to those of Brady right now. after a few seasons of work on his accuracy, and some strength training to get his core strength up so that he could make those deep throws. put Orton into that same kind of training and give him some time and the results can be damn good.

i'm not saying he is going to go out and become a pro bowler, win 3 super bowls and toss 50 TDs, but if he is helped in his career the way Brady was early in his, he can be a very good QB to lead this franchise for the next several years.

Without Marshall Orton's gonna have a hard time posting the same numbers that he did this year

BroncoMan4ever
01-30-2010, 08:07 PM
Without Marshall Orton's gonna have a hard time posting the same numbers that he did this year

Gaffney in the final game of the season showed that Marshall isn't going to be missed as much as so many believe.

get a good possession receiver in FA or the draft and we will be fine. also, wth another year in the system it can also be said that Royal's numbers will go up and the missing Marshall numbers will be spread around who is still there.

Marshall while being a great weapon, is not as important to the development of Orton than getting the interior line upgraded so that the running game works and he has protection.

KipCorrington25
01-30-2010, 10:59 PM
I saw all I needed to see when we needed him the most against KC and he **** the bed... he suuuuuuuuuuuuks....

strafen
01-30-2010, 11:20 PM
Orton could perform better at the system. The prevalent fact that still remains is that he's not athletic enough. You can not teach that, nor can he acquire it. It is what it is.
Sorry, but I doubt we'll see any difference in his game other than being a bit more confident perhaps.
No matter what, he will always drift back to what he does comfortably.
We need a QB we can feel confident in, we need a QB that when the chips are down, he's going to win games for you. Orton is not that type of QB nor will he ever be.

TomServo
01-31-2010, 12:46 AM
unless the broncos defense suddenly turned into the 80s bears or SB ravens D............Orton would have to play perfect. beyond PERFECT-orton would have to play D and get 6 INTS. and i dont see the broncos D turning into a defense of the decade. So No. Dream on

ZONA
01-31-2010, 01:48 AM
The first thing Orton should do is invest in a pair of training wheels. These help young kids to not fall over when riding a bike. They might help him to not fall over when somebody touches him.

http://media.rei.com/media/213562.jpg

Cito Pelon
01-31-2010, 09:16 AM
I don't think Kyle Orton can take his game to the next level.

He may show some subtle improvements next year, as he will be more comfortable in the offense....but he will always be a QB that will need a superior supporting cast to carry him and his average NFL talent.

That's debatable. IMO, he'll need to apply himself mightily, and hit the weights. He has good physical tools, but I think he hasn't applied himself as much as he could have to this point in his career.

It's god-awful hard to win titles consistently in the NFL no matter who the QB is. You still need a good all-around team, period.

How many AFC Titles has Peyton Manning won? Only one. Only one single AFC Title.

You gotta have a good all-around team, not just a great QB.

listopencil
01-31-2010, 09:50 AM
That's debatable. IMO, he'll need to apply himself mightily, and hit the weights. He has good physical tools, but I think he hasn't applied himself as much as he could have to this point in his career.

It's god-awful hard to win titles consistently in the NFL no matter who the QB is. You still need a good all-around team, period.

How many AFC Titles has Peyton Manning won? Only one. Only one single AFC Title.

You gotta have a good all-around team, not just a great QB.


I'm amazed that you have to point that out on a Denver Broncos message board to fellow Denver Broncos fans.

strafen
01-31-2010, 09:54 AM
That's debatable. IMO, he'll need to apply himself mightily, and hit the weights. He has good physical tools, but I think he hasn't applied himself as much as he could have to this point in his career.

It's god-awful hard to win titles consistently in the NFL no matter who the QB is. You still need a good all-around team, period.

How many AFC Titles has Peyton Manning won? Only one. Only one single AFC Title.

You gotta have a good all-around team, not just a great QB.Stop defending a lousy QB
Let me put it to you in a non-political correct way: Orton sucks balls!

Now, as for the Colts and Peyton.
Let me tell you this, sure Peyton didn't do it all by himself, but the Colts couldn't do it without him either, right?
How many championships had the Colts won before Peyton showed up?

DenverBrit
01-31-2010, 09:58 AM
Stop defending a lousy QB
Let me put it to you in a non-political correct way: Orton sucks balls!

Now, as for the Colts and Peyton.
Let me tell you this, sure Peyton didn't do it all by himself, but the Colts couldn't do it without him either, right?
How many championships had the Colts won before Peyton showed up?

The Colts wouldn't have been near a SB in 2007 had their Defense not turned into a monster when it counted.

You have to have balance.

misturanderson
01-31-2010, 10:18 AM
How many championships had the Colts won before Peyton showed up?

3 NFL championships, one of which was a superbowl. What's your point?

Hamrob
01-31-2010, 10:19 AM
I think the biggest thing that Orton could do to invest in himself....would be to get a trainer and work on his atheletism. Sprints, shuttles, cross-overs...even some basketball could help him. His hips are so stiff...he needs help. He'll never be a Steve Young, but he doesn't have to be Drew Bledsoe in the pocket either.

I think his arm is strong enough...he just doesn't want to pull the trigger. Either because he's afraid of making a mistake or because McDaniels has him on a short leash. They need to let him open it up and let the chips fall where they may.

I think he can improve and I'd love for him to prove me wrong and turn into a Kurt Warner/Tom Brady type!