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View Full Version : Bronco Facts Part 1: Kyle Orton is a Good QB


Drek
01-28-2010, 07:25 PM
So in an attempt to swing this forum back to football discussion I'm going to start making threads in which I give one indisputable fact and how it plays a role going into the 2010 season.

This one: Kyle Orton is a good QB.

Why it is true:
Only 4 games with a QB rating below 83.0. Only 6 games with a QB rating below 90.0.

This despite 29 sacks (14th most in the league) and 541 attempts (t-6 with Aaron Rogers).

So he didn't have freakishly good protection helping inflate his QB rating and he didn't just pad QB ratings with 15 attempt games dominated by a running game.

What this means for 2010:

Well, depends if you think Orton has peaked, or if he can continue to improve. I'd personally go with the later, to some degree, but he isn't looking like he's about to blossom into Drew Brees next season.

Reasons to think he'll get better:
Lot of room for improvement in going through his progression.
Can get better at before the snap reads and adjustments.
McDaniels altered his delivery in the previous off-season, more time will only refine those corrections.

Reasons to question further potential:
limited athleticism
hasn't shown a penchant for making the big plays, often missing big play targets down field due to locking onto short to intermediate targets.
only showed limited growth in his reads over his first season.

What it all means:
In short, Orton improved a lot, he is now a good starting QB, but still shy of being a great one. We can reasonably expect him to take at least a small step closer to "great", but the skills needed to truly become great are things he didn't display last year despite his big break out season. Things like finding the big play when it is there and putting the dagger in the opposition when we have the ball in the red zone.

As it stands now Orton is a good enough QB to get us into the playoffs as long as other parts of the team don't handicap him. In the long term though, unless those skills spontaneously generate we'll need to either find our elite feature somewhere else (defense or running) or get a different QB if we want to win titles. All around very good teams don't win titles. They have Cinderella runs like the Jets until they meet a buzz saw in Peyton Manning and the Colts, or Tom Brady and the Pats, etc. and get bounced out while someone else wins the big one.

So discuss.

oubronco
01-28-2010, 07:27 PM
It helps when you throw screens and 2-5yd passes

jhns
01-28-2010, 07:30 PM
It is a QB efficiency rating. It isn't hard to be efficient throwing 22 screens a game. I don't agree that he is a good QB based on anything he has shown in his career. If you watch him, you can see the struggle with how hard he makes it look. He also doesn't elevate the talent around him, another great sign that he isn't very good.

Archer81
01-28-2010, 07:30 PM
This should end well.


:Broncos:

Bigdawg26
01-28-2010, 07:38 PM
This one: Kyle Orton is a good QB.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/McGoose/motivator2922133.jpg

Archer81
01-28-2010, 07:40 PM
<TABLE class=tablehead border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left>Kyle Orton:

BY PASS PLAY
</TD><TD>CMP</TD><TD>ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>CMP%</TD><TD>YPA</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>RAT</TD><TD>ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: Behind line</TD><TD>64</TD><TD>79</TD><TD>462</TD><TD>81.0</TD><TD>5.85</TD><TD>49</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>99.5</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds.</TD><TD>143</TD><TD>206</TD><TD>1322</TD><TD>69.4</TD><TD>6.42</TD><TD>52</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>101.2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Tom Brady

<TABLE class=tablehead border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left>BY PASS PLAY</TD><TD>CMP</TD><TD>ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>CMP%</TD><TD>YPA</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>RAT</TD><TD>ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: Behind line</TD><TD>53</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>435</TD><TD>77.9</TD><TD>6.40</TD><TD>38</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>97.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds.</TD><TD>196</TD><TD>268</TD><TD>1643</TD><TD>73.1</TD><TD>6.13</TD><TD>54</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>97.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Kurt Warner

<TABLE class=tablehead border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: Behind line</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>80</TD><TD>367</TD><TD>68.8</TD><TD>4.59</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>81.6</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds.</TD><TD>157</TD><TD>220</TD><TD>1329</TD><TD>71.4</TD><TD>6.04</TD><TD>25</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>93.2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Drew Brees

<TABLE class=tablehead border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left>BY PASS PLAY</TD><TD>CMP</TD><TD>ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>CMP%</TD><TD>YPA</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>RAT</TD><TD>ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: Behind line</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>423</TD><TD>88.2</TD><TD>5.57</TD><TD>36</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>111.8</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds.</TD><TD>137</TD><TD>193</TD><TD>1133</TD><TD>71.0</TD><TD>5.87</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>93.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Kind of odd. Orton compares with other NFL qb's nicely. After 11 yards, not so much.

:Broncos:

RhymesayersDU
01-28-2010, 07:49 PM
Epic thread.

But I'll play along. Sure, Kyle Orton is a good QB. Good meaning not great but an average run of the mill QB.

Awesome. That a quarter will get you a cup of coffee.

The fact is, he's not a great QB and you really need one of those to win.

Archer81
01-28-2010, 07:50 PM
Epic thread.

But I'll play along. Sure, Kyle Orton is a good QB. Good meaning not great but an average run of the mill QB.

Awesome. That a quarter will get you a cup of coffee.

The fact is, he's not a great QB and you really need one of those to win.


They sell coffee for a quarter? Welcome back 1958.


:Broncos:

gunns
01-28-2010, 07:51 PM
I think most of the above posts show this is NOT an indisputable fact.

Br0nc0Buster
01-28-2010, 07:52 PM
I think he is solid
Dont think he is elite and dont think he prolly ever will be which is why I wouldnt pass up on a prospect like Bradford were he fall in the draft

But I am comfortable with him as the starter next year
The people who say he sucks dont know what they are talking about
He isnt flashy, but that doesnt mean he sucks

broncswin
01-28-2010, 07:53 PM
I backed Orton for quite a while, but he is only a average QB...we need a guy who can move around a little in the pocket...make a play when things break down...have a strong enough arm to fit it tight in the middle 20 yards down the field...I don't dislike Orton, but this team needs a playmaker

Pony Boy
01-28-2010, 07:54 PM
Your are correct Orton is a good QB, but what we need is a great QB......

broncswin
01-28-2010, 07:55 PM
Your are correct Orton is a good QB, but waht we need is a great QB......

I think McNabb would be a great fit in this system...I don't think he is great, but he is damn good and has play making abilities.

Fusionfrontman
01-28-2010, 08:06 PM
You trade for McNabb and I think you set us back further. What are you trading him for anyway? Trade a 2nd round pick at least for QB in his mid 30's? We;re not one piece away like the Vikings looked, were a few, especially in the trenches. I support Orton and think we can groom someone else good behind him through the draft while we build this team up at the important position. The lines

WolfpackGuy
01-28-2010, 08:10 PM
He peaked at about 5 games into his senior year at Purdue.

Been downhill ever since.

He was the best QB Denver had last year though, so he can put that award on his mantle.

Pony Boy
01-28-2010, 08:12 PM
I think McNabb would be a great fit in this system...I don't think he is great, but he is damn good and has play making abilities.

Now, you're talking great QB ...... but don't think that will ever happen here.

broncswin
01-28-2010, 08:16 PM
You trade for McNabb and I think you set us back further. What are you trading him for anyway? Trade a 2nd round pick at least for QB in his mid 30's? We;re not one piece away like the Vikings looked, were a few, especially in the trenches. I support Orton and think we can groom someone else good behind him through the draft while we build this team up at the important position. The lines

don't agree with that, I think McNabb would be a much better QB to sit behind if I am a developing QB...so we give up a 2nd for him...chances we hit a great talent with that with that pick is slim...McNabb gives us a much better chance too win...the moral and confidence on the team would be much better suited for victories with McNabb than hoping for victories behind Orton...with wins and success comes stability and this teams need a coaching staff to stay in tact for a while...I think McNabb brings all those positives or atleast a much better chance at them

bronco militia
01-28-2010, 08:18 PM
http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/012010/small_statistics%20say.jpg

sixtimeseight
01-28-2010, 08:20 PM
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Not sure why it took me this long.

Archer81
01-28-2010, 08:33 PM
http://tinyurl.com/58xrrs


:Broncos:

24champ
01-28-2010, 08:33 PM
Reasons to think he'll get better:
Lot of room for improvement in going through his progression.
Can get better at before the snap reads and adjustments.
McDaniels altered his delivery in the previous off-season, more time will only refine those corrections.


I'd also say he needs to get into some kind of training regimen. May not be the most athletic QB in the NFL, but he can still work out and make himself a little better in running around.

Archer81
01-28-2010, 08:37 PM
I'd also say he needs to get into some kind of training regimen. May not be the most athletic QB in the NFL, but he can still work out and make himself a little better in running around.


In his defense, he did sprain both ankles. That never really heals if you dont stay off your feet, and he was playing the very next week. But I agree. Wouldnt kill him to work on strength training.


:Broncos:

Bob's your Information Minister
01-28-2010, 08:38 PM
The funniest part of this thread is that you think 29 sacks is a lot of sacks.

The fact of the matter is Denver's offensive line probably would have led the league in fewest sacks allowed had they had a quarterback who was better at avoiding the rush.

Orton has cement feet.

I'd say it's a stretch to call Orton a good quarterback. I don't think he does anything particularly well. He's about average.

The Broncos will never win squat with Orton and the sooner you all realize it the better off you'll be.

SureShot
01-28-2010, 08:42 PM
In his defense, he did sprain both ankles. That never really heals if you dont stay off your feet, and he was playing the very next week. But I agree. Wouldnt kill him to work on strength training.


:Broncos:

I dont think he ever really heals, dude is always hurt. He did have some games that really impressed me but most the time I saw the defense as the more dominant unit.

Archer81
01-28-2010, 08:45 PM
I dont think he ever really heals, dude is always hurt. He did have some games that really impressed me but most the time I saw the defense as the more dominant unit.


Broncos offense had problems. I dont think the most glaring was the play of Kyle Orton. What would annoy me is that too many times this season, just sidestepping a passrusher would cause Orton to fall over. Its like the 2nd coming of Brian Griese.


:Broncos:

SureShot
01-28-2010, 08:49 PM
Broncos offense had problems. I dont think the most glaring was the play of Kyle Orton. What would annoy me is that too many times this season, just sidestepping a passrusher would cause Orton to fall over. Its like the 2nd coming of Brian Griese.


:Broncos:

Outside of his drop back watching him move around is almost humorous.

azbroncfan
01-28-2010, 08:51 PM
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Not sure why it took me this long.Surprise, surprise! 6X8 is posting a post about having someone on ignore. How many guys do you have on ignore?

24champ
01-28-2010, 08:57 PM
In his defense, he did sprain both ankles. That never really heals if you dont stay off your feet, and he was playing the very next week. But I agree. Wouldnt kill him to work on strength training.


:Broncos:

Yeah, I forgot he was playing on bad ankles. But yeah...He can still improve on his legs.

The offensive line is going have some additions, whether thats through the Draft (Idaho offensive guard Mike Iupati) or through FA with Logan Mankins a Patriot. So sacks should be minimized there.

RhymesayersDU
01-28-2010, 08:59 PM
They sell coffee for a quarter? Welcome back 1958.


:Broncos:

Well, I mean... Orton's worth a buck or two, no?

;)

Florida_Bronco
01-28-2010, 09:05 PM
Excellent thread, Drek. I want to address these points.

Reasons to question further potential:
limited athleticism This, I'm not too worried about. Orton probably has at least as much athleticism as Brady and Cassel, who thrived in this offense.

hasn't shown a penchant for making the big plays, often missing big play targets down field due to locking onto short to intermediate targets. only showed limited growth in his reads over his first season. Admittedly, this is the one that bothers me the most. I'm interested to see how McDaniels works with him on this. I think some improvement will come naturally just with some more comfort and confidence in the offense, and we've all seen that he has the arm strength to hit the deep routes.

I really expect this to be the point that McD really focuses on with Orton this offseason and preseason.

Archer81
01-28-2010, 09:07 PM
Well, I mean... Orton's worth a buck or two, no?

;)

A small is $3.75...$1.fitty short.


:Broncos:

azbroncfan
01-28-2010, 09:08 PM
Excellent thread, Drek. I want to address these points.

This, I'm not too worried about. Orton probably has at least as much athleticism as Brady and Cassel, who thrived in this offense.

.

Brady maybe but he isn't even close to Cassel who actually runs and moves around pretty well.

maher_tyler
01-28-2010, 09:13 PM
I backed Orton for quite a while, but he is only a average QB...we need a guy who can move around a little in the pocket...make a play when things break down...have a strong enough arm to fit it tight in the middle 20 yards down the field...I don't dislike Orton, but this team needs a playmaker

This is what i was thinking...he needs to work on his pocket awareness. If his first 1-2 reads weren't there..look out! Either was a sack, Int. or threw the ball away...all the while leading to the third straight 3 and out! He better show vast improvements in TC and into the start of next season!

Fusionfrontman
01-28-2010, 09:20 PM
I dunno, I think if you trade for McNabb you need to do it as soon as FA opens...because you can't sign Orton for another year then realize McNabb is available. I mean, yeah duh that seems obvious but I'm seriously concerned with our C and LG.
If we resign who we need to resign, Orton, Doom, Kupe (Marshall...point for another thread.) and can get Mankins, and Wilfork I'd be estatic. Throw in a decent center and I think we make the playoffs.

watermock
01-28-2010, 09:28 PM
Griese had more pocket awareness.

Orton had some good games in a very limited offense. Once the D faltered, well, we couldn't get off the field soon enough for the ride home.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-28-2010, 09:33 PM
Orton probably has at least as much athleticism as Brady and Cassel, who thrived in this offense.


Do you watch football? AT ALL?

Cassel is in a completely different universe where athleticism is concerned.

TDmvp
01-28-2010, 09:42 PM
In a scrambling drill who do you got ... ??????

My Aunt on her Hover Round .
http://www.moodiereport.com/Martin/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hover_round1.png


or Kyle Orton


http://www.docsports.com/images/lib/large/kyle-orton-1.jpg


??????

SureShot
01-28-2010, 09:44 PM
In a scrambling drill who do you got ... ??????

My Aunt on her Hover Round .
http://www.moodiereport.com/Martin/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hover_round1.png


or Kyle Orton


http://www.docsports.com/images/lib/large/kyle-orton-1.jpg


??????

Is this even in doubt? Those Hover Rounds are pretty nimble.

lostknight
01-28-2010, 09:53 PM
So in an attempt to swing this forum back to football discussion I'm going to start making threads in which I give one indisputable fact and how it plays a role going into the 2010 season.

This one: Kyle Orton is a good QB.



You sound like Obama at the State of the Union, telling us what we must believe, and "setting the record straight"

The jury is out on Orton, just like it's out on McDaniels. Until they win big games, they are simply Broncos players and coaches.

strafen
01-28-2010, 10:30 PM
Orton lacks athleticism. You can't teach that, nor can he all of the sudden acquire it.
He is what he is, a mediocre QB

SoCalBronco
01-28-2010, 10:38 PM
So in an attempt to swing this forum back to football discussion I'm going to start making threads in which I give one indisputable fact and how it plays a role going into the 2010 season.

This one: Kyle Orton is a good QB.

Why it is true:
Only 4 games with a QB rating below 83.0. Only 6 games with a QB rating below 90.0.

This despite 29 sacks (14th most in the league) and 541 attempts (t-6 with Aaron Rogers).

So he didn't have freakishly good protection helping inflate his QB rating and he didn't just pad QB ratings with 15 attempt games dominated by a running game.



Your reasoning is suspect. The post reekes of intellectual laziness, which is surprising because you usually bring some well thought out stuff. You've selected the inference that Orton got poor protection from 29 sacks, when its more likely that said statistic demonstrates his tendency to crumble in the pocket vs. the blitz. You also focus on QB rating when its a statistic that is geared towards his game in particular (short, high percentage throws). There's alot of folks that support Orton who hypocritically dismissed QB rating when it was raised to defend Griese. It has some measure of value, but it is still just one statistic and just a single factor in the analysis. Hardly the stuff of "indisputable facts". It's a very lazy analysis that isn't fact intensive at all. Anyone can pick two or three facts out there, arbitrarily assign one particular inference as the most likely inference to be derived from the fact and jump to a conclusion.

Hulamau
01-28-2010, 10:54 PM
I'd also say he needs to get into some kind of training regimen. May not be the most athletic QB in the NFL, but he can still work out and make himself a little better in running around.

This is one part he and Josh will no doubt work hard on all offseason.

Not only building up his lower body strength and working on his ankles but in dexterity and movement. Payton Manning and Tom Brady arent Elwayesgue or even like Cutler in mobility, But they have learned over the years how to slide in the pocket just enough and yet still make the reads and pass accurately in the face of the rush.

The last three games of the year, specially the last two as Kyle's badly sprained ankle healed, his mobility improved significantly. He was evading the rush pretty well in the Philly and last KC game inspite of some holes on the o-line.

With this whole offseason to review every play in detail with Josh on film and work on foot work , timing and reads in the pocket ... plus stiffening the o-line with a new starting guard and center stout enough to hold the point of attack for a second to a half-second longer, Kyle will make s significant stride in year two.

This was only his third full year under center with a three year gap between starting his first season and the last two of playing in two different systems, and both teams with significant protection problems on the o-line.

No one is ever going to mistake his footwork for Michael Vick, or even a Drew Brees, so his success will depend even more on a strong consistent o-line.

But there have been a lot of QBs who can play at a high level and win consistently without being good scramblers.

Orton can and will improve with more experience in this system and now has the first full offseason to study and practice closely with Josh. A better o-line and plug a couple holes on defense and Orton can easily lead this team into the playoffs.

At the same time, of course we develop a solid backups who can press Orton and not have such a disastrous fall off as Simm's did this year if and when needed.

TheReverend
01-28-2010, 11:37 PM
Your reasoning is suspect. The post reekes of intellectual laziness, which is surprising because you usually bring some well thought out stuff. You've selected the inference that Orton got poor protection from 29 sacks, when its more likely that said statistic demonstrates his tendency to crumble in the pocket vs. the blitz. You also focus on QB rating when its a statistic that is geared towards his game in particular (short, high percentage throws). There's alot of folks that support Orton who hypocritically dismissed QB rating when it was raised to defend Griese. It has some measure of value, but it is still just one statistic and just a single factor in the analysis. Hardly the stuff of "indisputable facts". It's a very lazy analysis that isn't fact intensive at all. Anyone can pick two or three facts out there, arbitrarily assign one particular inference as the most likely inference to be derived from the fact and jump to a conclusion.

Split G Cmp Att Pct Yds Yds/Att TD Int 1st Sck Rtg
Blitz 15 105 171 61.4 1291 7.5 11 3 67 13 98.8
QB Under Pressure 15 24 68 35.3 248 3.6 0 2 13 26 34.5
QB Knocked Down 14 8 26 30.8 49 1.9 0 1 1 24 24.2
Pass Dropped 11 0 16 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 39.6

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7282/passing_splits.html#ixzz0dz6DuDlf
Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee with SI Subscription


He did excell against the blitz. Under half his sacks came from blitzing opponents and he threw 11 TDs and had nearly a100 QB rating vs the blitz.

What this points out is poor pocket awareness against standard rushes. I don't know if he can't read defenses properly or what the situation is specifically, but Kyle isn't carrying anyone anywhere anytime soon, let alone the Denver Broncos.

TDmvp
01-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Is this even in doubt? Those Hover Rounds are pretty nimble.

LOL yea that's true

and I've seen Kyle run and it really does remind me of Bernie Kosar if you cut off one of Bernie's legs and gave him a ankle sprain on the remaining leg.

Advantage Hover Round ...

Florida_Bronco
01-28-2010, 11:42 PM
You've selected the inference that Orton got poor protection from 29 sacks, when its more likely that said statistic demonstrates his tendency to crumble in the pocket vs. the blitz.

Gotta disagree with this, SoCal. We all saw Hamilton get abused this year, and Wiegmann wasn't a whole lot better. Teams were getting constant pressure up the middle on us this year and that is what will disintegrate a pocket.

24champ
01-29-2010, 12:02 AM
This is one part he and Josh will no doubt work hard on all offseason.

Not only building up his lower body strength and working on his ankles but in dexterity and movement. Payton Manning and Tom Brady arent Elwayesgue or even like Cutler in mobility, But they have learned over the years how to slide in the pocket just enough and yet still make the reads and pass accurately in the face of the rush.

The last three games of the year, specially the last two as Kyle's badly sprained ankle healed, his mobility improved significantly. He was evading the rush pretty well in the Philly and last KC game inspite of some holes on the o-line.

With this whole offseason to review every play in detail with Josh on film and work on foot work , timing and reads in the pocket ... plus stiffening the o-line with a new starting guard and center stout enough to hold the point of attack for a second to a half-second longer, Kyle will make s significant stride in year two.


I have no doubt Josh McDaniels told him exactly that during his exit interviews, that he needs to work on building strength and has to do x, y, z to get where McDaniels wants him to be. We all know how McDaniels wants his players to be in shape when they arrive at Camp. Several players learned that pretty quickly, including my favorite player Champ Bailey.

Drek
01-29-2010, 03:07 AM
Your reasoning is suspect. The post reekes of intellectual laziness, which is surprising because you usually bring some well thought out stuff. You've selected the inference that Orton got poor protection from 29 sacks, when its more likely that said statistic demonstrates his tendency to crumble in the pocket vs. the blitz. You also focus on QB rating when its a statistic that is geared towards his game in particular (short, high percentage throws). There's alot of folks that support Orton who hypocritically dismissed QB rating when it was raised to defend Griese. It has some measure of value, but it is still just one statistic and just a single factor in the analysis. Hardly the stuff of "indisputable facts". It's a very lazy analysis that isn't fact intensive at all. Anyone can pick two or three facts out there, arbitrarily assign one particular inference as the most likely inference to be derived from the fact and jump to a conclusion.

You need to actually look at how I phrased it.

QB rating isn't a be all/end all stat. But consistently putting up a good QB rating is a great way to tell good starting QBs from the flash in the pan types.

Its not unlike baseball where the youngster who throws 5-7 innings every start with a 3.8-4.5 ERA is a lot more likely to put it together and improve than another young player who has an 8 inning, 1 run gem followed by a 4 inning, 5 run beating.

Worst case the former can be a solid #4/#5 guy and with a few tweaks might become very good. Worst case for the former is he stops throwing that gem every other game and he's nothing more than a long man.

I also never dismissed it with regards to Griese, who I considered a very good QB (one step above where Orton is now) until he shredded his shoulder trying to help us win. Dude got a bad rap. If Griese had never gotten hurt I think there is a good chance the '05 Broncos win the Super Bowl, and I'm a big Plummer supporter too. But Griese was a machine behind the line.

As for the pass protection, I didn't say Orton had poor pass protection. He had almost exactly average pass pro in fact. Why was that important? Because a lot of very good QBs look worse behind bad protection and a lot of mediocre QBs look better thanks to excellent protection.

Our OL was right on the line last year statistically and that passes the eye ball test when you look at how Hamilton played, we lost Harris for the majority of the season, and the entire OL changed over to a different blocking scheme on passing downs. The line didn't hurt Orton, but it generally didn't do him a ton of favors either.

Drek
01-29-2010, 03:13 AM
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/McGoose/motivator2922133.jpg

Hey ****stain, instead of being a stupid ****ing griefer why don't you try and discuss football on a football forum?

Drek
01-29-2010, 03:20 AM
Epic thread.

But I'll play along. Sure, Kyle Orton is a good QB. Good meaning not great but an average run of the mill QB.

Awesome. That a quarter will get you a cup of coffee.

The fact is, he's not a great QB and you really need one of those to win.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

He's better than what most teams have, but this is a QB starved league.

If we give Orton a very good running game, OL, and defense he can get us into the playoffs with regularity because he rarely ever costs you games.

Unless we have a Barry Sanders level back or a defense on par with the 85 Bears and 2000 Ravens he will not win us a title. The elite QBs will out play him every time when it really counts. That is even assuming he takes another step forward.

I know people like to stick their head in the sand and act like this isn't true, but Kyle Orton did a whole lot more to help this team win last year than he did to hurt it. He did more to help this team win than all but about five or six guys. Pretty much all of those guys got pro-bowl invites.

But at the same time the ceiling is dangerously close on Kyle's abilities unless he makes some miraculous strides this off-season, and that ceiling is one that doesn't carry you to a championship, our ultimate goal.

So while Kyle is good enough to end the playoff drought we've been experiencing he is not good enough to finish the task.

He's Jake Plummer or Jake Delhomme in their good years basically, and as the Panther's top 10 running game and defense for pretty much all of Delhomme's career shows - that is not good enough to win a title. They almost did it once when the running game and defense had a magical season. But then they met an elite QB in the SB.

watermock
01-29-2010, 04:01 AM
Gotta disagree with this, SoCal. We all saw Hamilton get abused this year, and Wiegmann wasn't a whole lot better. Teams were getting constant pressure up the middle on us this year and that is what will disintegrate a pocket.


WTF?

Then why did't we adjust to the A gap and put an H back in(Hillis or Quinn or Graham).

This is idiotic.

It's not lke they were going around Clady.

WTF are you talking about???

Thet were going A gap every time dumbass.

watermock
01-29-2010, 04:03 AM
We never put in a blocker to close the A gap the whole second season...

jesus.

Buy a vowel.

Hillis could of helped.

watermock
01-29-2010, 04:12 AM
In fact, I can't remember a single time that the was a back there to pick up the A gap blitz.

You know why?

Because there was noone to do so, even when it was done week after week after week.

Beavis.

colonelbeef
01-29-2010, 06:18 AM
http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/012010/small_statistics%20say.jpg

lol! nice work

rastaman
01-29-2010, 06:37 AM
You trade for McNabb and I think you set us back further. What are you trading him for anyway? Trade a 2nd round pick at least for QB in his mid 30's? We;re not one piece away like the Vikings looked, were a few, especially in the trenches. I support Orton and think we can groom someone else good behind him through the draft while we build this team up at the important position. The lines

See thats the delimma with some of the fans. They know Orton is a career-stop gap back up QB who can help you win 6-10 games. But he's also a high maintenance QB who needs all 21 players on both sides of the ball playing better than him inorder to win games with consistency.

Hence we all saw the real Kyle Orton during the last game of the season. McD finally opened up the play book for Kyle and although he threw for over 400 yds, he also threw two picks that resulted in TD's for the other team. Had McD opened up the play book for Orton for 15 games last season, we would have definitely seen Orton throw allot more interceptions and perhaps some of the Int's over the 15 games would have ended in TD's as well.

What are my suggestions? Simple, if Orton is going to be the Broncos QB over the next two seasons or longer here's is what needs to happen.

Starting with this offseason after the SB and Pro Bowl Orton and his merry band of WR's need to stay in FLA. and assemble together and work out together especially with Royal. Orton needs to work on his confidence, his foot work and his timing with his WR's. The Broncos WR's (especially 2nd year receivers) need to run routes and get in sync with Orton until they have nightmares in their sleep! Orton and his Receivers need to study game tape until they are cross-eyed.

Speaking of Ortons foot work.....he needs to do agility work outs with ankle weights on (at least 10lbs). He needs to practice rapid drop back plays wearing ankle weights with his receivers running slant patterns and deep routes and Orton working on connecting and throwing the ball accurately.

Orton also needs agility drills that include moving around in the pocket to buy more time against the pass rush, with his WR's running slant patterns and Kyle simple needs to throw and complete passes accurately.

Orton while wearing those 10lb ankle weights needs to simmulate dropping back to pass and pull the ball down and run for 5 or 10 yards to simmulate running for a 1st down.

Orton needs to run series of 20-30yd sprints on the balls of his feet while wearing 10 lb ankle weights to work on his speed.

After having trained wearing ankle weights during the off season by the time training camp starts Orton will be remarkable faster in the pocket and running 5-10 yards, which should help him extend plays.

Finally, Orton needs to work on arm strength! I would suggest Orton invest in 5lb wrist weights and wear them in the off season during passing drills.

These small additions will add strength with his throwing b/c the weights will help strengthen his wrist and shoulder. He takes the wrist weights off and the football will fill lighter thus greatly enhancing his arm strength.

WolfpackGuy
01-29-2010, 08:03 AM
See thats the delimma with some of the fans. They know Orton is a career-stop gap back up QB who can help you win 6-10 games. But he's also a high maintenance QB who needs all 21 players on both sides of the ball playing better than him inorder to win games with consistency.

Hence we all saw the real Kyle Orton during the last game of the season. McD finally opened up the play book for Kyle and although he threw for over 400 yds, he also threw two picks that resulted in TD's for the other team. Had McD opened up the play book for Orton for 15 games last season, we would have definitely seen Orton throw allot more interceptions and perhaps some of the Int's over the 15 games would have ended in TD's as well.

What are my suggestions? Simple, if Orton is going to be the Broncos QB over the next two seasons or longer here's is what needs to happen.

Starting with this offseason after the SB and Pro Bowl Orton and his merry band of WR's need to stay in FLA. and assemble together and work out together especially with Royal. Orton needs to work on his confidence, his foot work and his timing with his WR's. The Broncos WR's (especially 2nd year receivers) need to run routes and get in sync with Orton until they have nightmares in their sleep! Orton and his Receivers need to study game tape until they are cross-eyed.

Speaking of Ortons foot work.....he needs to do agility work outs with ankle weights on (at least 10lbs). He needs to practice rapid drop back plays wearing ankle weights with his receivers running slant patterns and deep routes and Orton working on connecting and throwing the ball accurately.

Orton also needs agility drills that include moving around in the pocket to buy more time against the pass rush, with his WR's running slant patterns and Kyle simple needs to throw and complete passes accurately.

Orton while wearing those 10lb ankle weights needs to simmulate dropping back to pass and pull the ball down and run for 5 or 10 yards to simmulate running for a 1st down.

Orton needs to run series of 20-30yd sprints on the balls of his feet while wearing 10 lb ankle weights to work on his speed.

After having trained wearing ankle weights during the off season by the time training camp starts Orton will be remarkable faster in the pocket and running 5-10 yards, which should help him extend plays.

Finally, Orton needs to work on arm strength! I would suggest Orton invest in 5lb wrist weights and wear them in the off season during passing drills.

These small additions will add strength with his throwing b/c the weights will help strengthen his wrist and shoulder. He takes the wrist weights off and the football will fill lighter thus greatly enhancing his arm strength.

Jesus, will Orton have enough time to learn the plays?

That's right, they only run 4 maybe 5 plays anyway.

DrFate
01-29-2010, 08:16 AM
Hey ****stain, instead of being a stupid ****ing griefer why don't you try and discuss football on a football forum?

This is typical of your caliber of 'football discussion' - you and your ilk.

If a poster agrees with your contived premise - it's good discussion.

if a poster disagrees with your contrived premise - time for the name calling.

jhns
01-29-2010, 08:30 AM
See, I think you need to think a little more about the indisputable facts thing. I have a few suggestions that would go over much better.

1) Dawkins is a great team leader and still plays at an extremely high level.

2) Elvis knows how to get to the QB. This was his first year in this system so he should improve. Bringing in another pass rusher would help him and the team be even better.

3) The o-line needs work but we have 3 excellent, young, starters to build off of. Although Harris has had injury problems throughout his career, we can build a solid line again with a center and LG.


If you want to make a thread that is positive and is true, these are much better options. Did you honestly think this subject was the best option? Did you really think this was going to go well? You mise well have gone with my indiaputable fact: We are a far better team right now if we had Jay Cutler.

WolfpackGuy
01-29-2010, 08:43 AM
We are a far better team right now if we had Jay Cutler.


Oh, you are so wrong.

"The guy was a reckless diabetic because he had too many turnovers. Yada, yada, yada."

Noone seems to remember he only played 37 games and 32 of those were with the worst defenses in Broncos history.

Instead, the Broncos now have Orton, Ayers, and whatever schmuck the front office decides to waste a first round pick on this year.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6096213,00.jpg

sixtimeseight
01-29-2010, 08:47 AM
Surprise, surprise! 6X8 is posting a post about having someone on ignore. How many guys do you have on ignore?

Dunno, but it's +1 now.

Old 01-28-2010, 09:51 PM
Remove user from ignore list
azbroncfan
This message is hidden because azbroncfan is on your ignore list.

Buh bye, you old, sad piece of ****. Sorry your life didn't work out the way you wanted, but maybe it's time to find a better outlet than being angry on a message board. Like suicide maybe? Enjoy having the last word, you really earned it, champ.

gyldenlove
01-29-2010, 08:53 AM
Orton is a highly average QB, he is so average that he stands out with his averageness.

For every thing he does well there is a thing he does poorly. Average is not a bad thing, a number of average QBs have had success in this league.

I don't see him improving much, most of the major areas of potential improvement are things that are not easy to do anything about, such as throwing a good deep ball, mobility in the pocket, read progression and timing patterns. His output may improve a bit with Mcdaniels putting in his full system this year and Orton getting more familiar and hopefully being able to utilize the players around him better.

I think there is dangerous perception especially with quarterbacks that output = skill, which I think is badly incorrect, there is some correlation obviously, but I think you can get good output from a very average QB like Jon Kitna throwing 4000 yards and 20+ TDs for the Lions a few years back, that didn't mean he was on the level of Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, just means he had a good year.

strafen
01-29-2010, 09:51 AM
I've been saying this since Orton was on his way to Denver...
We will not win with Orton at QB. Period!
I agree with Rastaman assessment of Orton; he is a high maintenance QB. He needs everything to be perfect around him for him to win games for you.

We're going to have Orton as our QB next season again. To say this depresses me, it kills me, it saddens me, and it makes me mad, does fully describe how I feel inside.

If Orton is our starter QB next season, forget about what kind of defense we're going to have, what kind of draft we're going to have, and all the good things we might accomplish in the off-season. Everything will be trumped by the fact that Orton will again be leading this team

Folks, I can not stress enough how fubar we will be next season with Orton. I don't care what we do, we will be screwed, period!

vancejohnson82
01-29-2010, 10:22 AM
I've been saying this since Orton was on his way to Denver...
We will not win with Orton at QB. Period!
I agree with Rastaman assessment of Orton; he is a high maintenance QB. He needs everything to be perfect around him for him to win games for you.

We're going to have Orton as our QB next season again. To say this depresses me, it kills me, it saddens me, and it makes me mad, does fully describe how I feel inside.

If Orton is our starter QB next season, forget about what kind of defense we're going to have, what kind of draft we're going to have, and all the good things we might accomplish in the off-season. Everything will be trumped by the fact that Orton will again be leading this team

Folks, I can not stress enough how fubar we will be next season with Orton. I don't care what we do, we will be screwed, period!

what was the other option dragster? After the Cutler trade....who should we have had under center...who should we go get right now? Instead of telling us, "Oh how depressed I'll be" chime in with some football chatter and throw an option out there

Archer81
01-29-2010, 10:27 AM
We're going to have Orton as our QB next season again. To say this depresses me, it kills me, it saddens me, and it makes me mad, does fully describe how I feel inside


http://tinyurl.com/dd8axd


:Broncos:

jhns
01-29-2010, 10:30 AM
what was the other option dragster? After the Cutler trade....who should we have had under center...who should we go get right now? Instead of telling us, "Oh how depressed I'll be" chime in with some football chatter and throw an option out there

There was that one option of not trading away the good QB we had for Orton...

azbroncfan
01-29-2010, 10:47 AM
Dunno, but it's +1 now.



Buh bye, you old, sad piece of ****. Sorry your life didn't work out the way you wanted, but maybe it's time to find a better outlet than being angry on a message board. Like suicide maybe? Enjoy having the last word, you really earned it, champ.

I figured you would since I severely exposed your BS fake betting ticket to claim that you won 2000 bucks. What a fraud you are. That is without even mentioning when you were bragging about the Nuggets ABA title and told me that I should of watched basketball back then. I am waiting for you to show when they won it?

strafen
01-29-2010, 10:51 AM
what was the other option dragster? After the Cutler trade....who should we have had under center...who should we go get right now? Instead of telling us, "Oh how depressed I'll be" chime in with some football chatter and throw an option out thereObviously there was no option last season. That decision was made by Mcdaniels. We've got stuck with Orton, though Tom Brandstater should've started in hindsight.
I did say at the beginning of last season that we should go with Brandstater.
A lot of people here laughed. Well, this was my reasoning;
If McD drafted TB to be our QOTF might as well throw into the fire to see what we've got. We were supposed to accomplish very little anyway. If TB had flopped, then we know where we stand, if he had succeeded, then we would be that much ahead in the rebuilding curve

We would've found out if Tom had potential or not. Instead we're going into a new season and still don't know what we've got in TB.
So, in my opinion, having had TB as our starting QB last season could have had answered a lot of questions, and as luck has it, we didn't accomplish anything with Orton than we could've accomplished with TB, unless you call 8-8 a success, which around this part of the country, that doesn't qualify as such.

That being said, as I've already pointed out, we're going into a new season with a lot of uncertaintly at the QB position (amongst other positions)

Here we are facing a dilemma of whether we should or should not draft a QB.
If you think Orton is the answer, and if McDaniels thinks he's the answer, then look for another 2-3 years from now before we're back into contention. In the meantime, rest assured our team will go as far as Orton takes us, and I don't like the distance in front of us

So, either TB gets the nod to compete this year, and hence see if he's the answer, or draft another QB, sit him yet again for another year while Orton keep us in the same place we've been, and take a chance in 2011 with whoever we draft in 2010
Does that make any freakin' sense to you?

Mcdaniels needs to be agressive. He needs to plug somebody in at QB as soon as he finds somebody with some promise.
We need to do this ala Ravens, ala Jets, ala Falcons. Put him in and see what we've got

Merlin
01-29-2010, 11:26 AM
He's Jake Plummer or Jake Delhomme in their good years basically.
Not a chance. Those players required far less to succeed* in their good years. I think Orton can be good, but only when given the same kind of protection and running game Green got in KC. A very hard bar to achieve, and there is no reason to assume we have the kind of talent evaluators that can get us there.

Their mobility under good coaching and when they played well added a dimension to the offense that Orton cannot, and thus requires us to provide him with more talent around him.

misturanderson
01-29-2010, 11:38 AM
I don't see him improving much, most of the major areas of potential improvement are things that are not easy to do anything about, such as throwing a good deep ball, mobility in the pocket, read progression and timing patterns. His output may improve a bit with Mcdaniels putting in his full system this year and Orton getting more familiar and hopefully being able to utilize the players around him better.


You honestly don't think that read progression and timing patterns are something that can improve from a person's first year in a new system on a totally new team?

I also feel that his deep ball, along with read progression, will get better if we address the OL and he has more time in the pocket next year (better not necessarily great).

I understand what you're saying about his pocket awreness, I hate watching a QB fall down when he isn't even in immediate danger of being sacked, but I wonder how much of that came from being injured almost the whole year. He had a few of those head-scratching moments where he would get touched by an errant hand and he'd crumble, but he also had times where he had good movement inside the pocket to avoid pressure. I'm not sure if he can make the shift towards having a consistently good pocket presence, but he has displayed the ability.

I just don't really see anything on the list you gave that he couldn't improve on and I fully expect him to improve in all of those areas. If he doesn't then he shouldn't be our QB after next year.

strafen
01-29-2010, 11:52 AM
You honestly don't think that read progression and timing patterns are something that can improve from a person's first year in a new system on a totally new team?

I also feel that his deep ball, along with read progression, will get better if we address the OL and he has more time in the pocket next year (better not necessarily great).

I understand what you're saying about his pocket awreness, I hate watching a QB fall down when he isn't even in immediate danger of being sacked, but I wonder how much of that came from being injured almost the whole year. He had a few of those head-scratching moments where he would get touched by an errant hand and he'd crumble, but he also had times where he had good movement inside the pocket to avoid pressure. I'm not sure if he can make the shift towards having a consistently good pocket presence, but he has displayed the ability.

I just don't really see anything on the list you gave that he couldn't improve on and I fully expect him to improve in all of those areas. If he doesn't then he shouldn't be our QB after next year.What you're saying sounds to me like you're talking about a rookie QB going into his 2nd year, but we are not. If that's what it's going to take to get Orton up to par, why even bother? Why do we have to feel like we're being forced to keep him?

If we're going to spend this immense amount of time to improve a mediocre QB to good, might as well get a rookie and spend the same time and dedication to groom him into an NFL starter.
What you see in Orton is what you get and what you will ever get, no more no less. We can spend our resources, money and time on a rookie QB, not on a veteran QB that has no athleticism. Orton looks like a Wall Street broker in a football uniform. He just looks wierd. He's got no muscles definition anywhere, he looks slouch, he's a freakin' slug.
Give up already. We don't have time to dink around with a guy like that. Time to move on!

misturanderson
01-29-2010, 12:28 PM
What you're saying sounds to me like you're talking about a rookie QB going into his 2nd year, but we are not. If that's what it's going to take to get Orton up to par, why even bother? Why do we have to feel like we're being forced to keep him?

If we're going to spend this immense amount of time to improve a mediocre QB to good, might as well get a rookie and spend the same time and dedication to groom him into an NFL starter.
What you see in Orton is what you get and what you will ever get, no more no less. We can spend our resources, money and time on a rookie QB, not on a veteran QB that has no athleticism. Orton looks like a Wall Street broker in a football uniform. He just looks wierd. He's got no muscles definition anywhere, he looks slouch, he's a freakin' slug.
Give up already. We don't have time to dink around with a guy like that. Time to move on!

He just finished his rookie contract, and, until this year, was on a team that couldn't develop a QB to save their lives. He's practically a 3rd year player as far as development because of how crappy the bears offensive coaching is. He isn't in his 30's yet and has improved his play every single year he's been in the league. There is absolutely no indication, despite what many of you like to claim, that Orton can't get better.

Will he become a great QB? Probably not, and if he doesn't perform that way in 2010 I wouldn't give him any chance. He is however, our best option at the moment and even if we get a rookie in the draft we will need him to play for us next year unless we are fine with taking a year off from having any realistic shot at the playoffs.

If we can get a good rookie prospect and develop him behind Orton for a year or two, fine, but we aren't going to have a rookie QB come in here and even get close to replicating what Orton did here last year, let alone do better than he did. I'm sure that you think that they could, but the fact of the matter is that they couldn't. There hasn't been a rookie QB in the last 30 years that has played as well from a pure passing standpoint as Orton did last year except for maybe Marino, but even he didn't start every game his rookie year.

bronco610
01-29-2010, 12:30 PM
To the original post, Kyle Orton is an average QB. End thread. Next.

Cito Pelon
01-31-2010, 08:01 AM
So in an attempt to swing this forum back to football discussion I'm going to start making threads in which I give one indisputable fact and how it plays a role going into the 2010 season.

This one: Kyle Orton is a good QB.

Why it is true:
Only 4 games with a QB rating below 83.0. Only 6 games with a QB rating below 90.0.

This despite 29 sacks (14th most in the league) and 541 attempts (t-6 with Aaron Rogers).

So he didn't have freakishly good protection helping inflate his QB rating and he didn't just pad QB ratings with 15 attempt games dominated by a running game.

What this means for 2010:

Well, depends if you think Orton has peaked, or if he can continue to improve. I'd personally go with the later, to some degree, but he isn't looking like he's about to blossom into Drew Brees next season.

Reasons to think he'll get better:
Lot of room for improvement in going through his progression.
Can get better at before the snap reads and adjustments.
McDaniels altered his delivery in the previous off-season, more time will only refine those corrections.

Reasons to question further potential:
limited athleticism
hasn't shown a penchant for making the big plays, often missing big play targets down field due to locking onto short to intermediate targets.
only showed limited growth in his reads over his first season.

What it all means:
In short, Orton improved a lot, he is now a good starting QB, but still shy of being a great one. We can reasonably expect him to take at least a small step closer to "great", but the skills needed to truly become great are things he didn't display last year despite his big break out season. Things like finding the big play when it is there and putting the dagger in the opposition when we have the ball in the red zone.

As it stands now Orton is a good enough QB to get us into the playoffs as long as other parts of the team don't handicap him. In the long term though, unless those skills spontaneously generate we'll need to either find our elite feature somewhere else (defense or running) or get a different QB if we want to win titles. All around very good teams don't win titles. They have Cinderella runs like the Jets until they meet a buzz saw in Peyton Manning and the Colts, or Tom Brady and the Pats, etc. and get bounced out while someone else wins the big one.

So discuss.

That's pretty much how I look at the situation.

Kyle has some upside still, but there's some things he has to improve on to get to 'great' status:

Pocket awareness, moving around while still looking downfield, running sometimes (and he's not slow of foot, he can run).

Better velocity on the longer throws. I think he's capable of it, but it's not his style. His style is to take a deliberate step into the longer throws instead of just setting his feet and whipping it. I'm sure some people will say he just doesn't have a strong arm, but part of getting velocity is how a QB sets his feet and turns his body into a throw - simple mechanics.

Better anticipation on the longer throws, he waits just a heartbeat too long on the longer throws, and this goes hand-in-hand with better velocity. Too many times in 2009 I saw him throw the ball too late. The ball wasn't meeting the receiver when it should have.

So I agree with the post, and I bet the staff is thinking the exact same way - either Kyle improves on some things, or he's gonna be replaced.

strafen
01-31-2010, 08:53 AM
That's pretty much how I look at the situation.

Kyle has some upside still, but there's some things he has to improve on to get to 'great' status:

Pocket awareness, moving around while still looking downfield, running sometimes (and he's not slow of foot, he can run).

Better velocity on the longer throws. I think he's capable of it, but it's not his style. His style is to take a deliberate step into the longer throws instead of just setting his feet and whipping it. I'm sure some people will say he just doesn't have a strong arm, but part of getting velocity is how a QB sets his feet and turns his body into a throw - simple mechanics.

Better anticipation on the longer throws, he waits just a heartbeat too long on the longer throws, and this goes hand-in-hand with better velocity. Too many times in 2009 I saw him throw the ball too late. The ball wasn't meeting the receiver when it should have.

So I agree with the post, and I bet the staff is thinking the exact same way - either Kyle improves on some things, or he's gonna be replaced.The guy got no upside and zero room for improvement.
Let's move on. Orton IS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER
We need to start this upcoming season with a new QB the staff feels is the right one to groom and start playing.
Playing Orton as our starting QB you can bet the ranch is not going to get any better for us from the offensive standpoint, nor will it give us a chance to win anymore than what we've had last season....

Orton is a waste of time. Everytime we get that slug in there, is lost time we could use to play somebody with more potential...

Broncos4tw
01-31-2010, 09:16 AM
Orton is average, nothing more. He could serve either as the backup on a team with a franchise QB, or as the starter for a team that is unable to find better at the time. I honestly don't think he'll ever win a SB, unless he is on a team that has the #1 ranked defense and best run game in the league (and even that didn't help the Jets in the end), or as the backup. Since he won't win us any SB, replace him, simple as that.

Some average or slightly better than average QBs can make it into the playoffs. Very, very few win a SB. Of the last four QBs in the hunt this year, three are franchise players, and the other team had the #1 running and #1 defense in the league.

Finally, it's been said a lot this year: The NFL is now a passing league. Solid QB performances are currently what is winning games.

Sir Screensalot isn't going to be winning us a championship anytime soon, mehtinks.

WolfpackGuy
01-31-2010, 09:18 AM
Well, unfortunately, we're stuck with Hurricane Orton through 2010.

Good news for the people who own #8 jerseys though.

I can hardly wait for September.

listopencil
01-31-2010, 09:28 AM
Meh, I think Orton is a good QB. We'll be fine at the position with him as our starter. I think Cito Pelon pretty much nailed it a few posts above me.

Hamrob
01-31-2010, 09:28 AM
I've been one of Orton's biggest critics. I want a great QB on this team...just like the next guy. But, there aren't any available this year. The draft only has average talents available and there are none in free-agency. The only guy we might be able to get would be McNabb and what would we have to give up? McNabb probably has three good years left...is he worth it.

Therefore, we're stuck. Perhaps Brandstrater is our guy of the future...let's see if he's improved...come the preseason. Whose coming out next year?

Cito Pelon
01-31-2010, 11:58 AM
The guy got no upside and zero room for improvement.
Let's move on. Orton IS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER
We need to start this upcoming season with a new QB the staff feels is the right one to groom and start playing.
Playing Orton as our starting QB you can bet the ranch is not going to get any better for us from the offensive standpoint, nor will it give us a chance to win anymore than what we've had last season....

Orton is a waste of time. Everytime we get that slug in there, is lost time we could use to play somebody with more potential...

Eh, Kyle has some potential still. He has most of the tools. You think he's the worst QB that ever saw the field, I say he isn't. He's actually a serviceable NFL QB. If they can find a Peyton Manning that's fine with me, but seeings how Peyton only has one AFC Title on his resume in 13 years . . . . .

You need a good all around team to win titles of any kind, be it Divisional, Conference, or League.