Dennis Kucinich - Ron Paual 2012!

[rastaman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py8cXlLyX18

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9a4...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By_zx...eature=related


Kucinich and Ron Paul (or Vice versa) could be a game changing dynamo to unseat the Corporate Republicans and Democrats that have ruled the WH since 1981.

I voted for Dennis in the primaries. But so many other people were so focused on mainstream media, which was refusing to cover him because he was too much of a threat, so they wound up choosing our now President-elect Barrack Obama. I am glad I voted for Obama but it seems more likely that Obama will govern to the center and appease both the Corporate Repub and Dems to the point he becomes vulnerable enough in 2012.

If Kucinich-Paul ticket in 2012 were able to get/garner 40-47 million votes as an independent Ticket, they could take enough votes away from both the GOP and the Obama 3rd Way-DLC Democrats for an EPIC UPSET.....and perhaps save our Democratic Republic from turning into a Fascist Corporate State.

[mhgaffney]

It would mean a new third party.

A big problem -- one of them would have to agree to be only VP. So which one?

[spdirty]

here's a better idea. Take a look at Pauls domestic platform and Kucinich's domestic platform and tell me how they would get along in the campaign. Then if your still in favor of this then maybe you should get off the gov't meds.

[spdirty]

It would mean a new third party.

A big problem -- one of them would have to agree to be only VP. So which one?


Let it be decided by a steel cage slap fight.

[mhgaffney]

For sure -- Paul and Kucinich would have to compromise BIG TIME-- on domestic policy.

They would have to find a mid ground they could both live with.

Is it possible? I don't know -- but it would be worth exploring.

[rastaman]

here's a better idea. Take a look at Pauls domestic platform and Kucinich's domestic platform and tell me how they would get along in the campaign. Then if your still in favor of this then maybe you should get off the gov't meds.

They would have to compromise.....plain and simple!

[rastaman]

It would mean a new third party.

A big problem -- one of them would have to agree to be only VP. So which one?

That 3rd Party would have to come in the form of an Independent Party.

[rastaman]

It would mean a new third party.

A big problem -- one of them would have to agree to be only VP. So which one?

If need be, I'd be content with giving Paul the first 8 years and Kucinich the 2nd 8 years.

In essence the U.S. would need 16 years of Paul or Kucinich administrations to correct and overcome the Disasters the have befallen this country in terms of economics, financially, domestically, internationally, and militarily over the last 30 years.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Remember what happened to Ron Paul's campaign in '08?

It was torpedoed by the corporate media.

The jackals in the MSM worked tirelessly to paint Paul as some sort of nutjob.

The corporatists who control the levers of power in America no longer need to carry out assassinations of leaders or potential leaders - they have a massive media infrastructure (30+ years in the making) to achieve the same net result.

[mhgaffney]

The media machine appears to be invincible. It is firmly in the control of the corporate fat cats. The media is not going to reform itself. Nor is there any way for us to do it.

Yet, at the same time -- there is no way to move this country in the direction we need to go without the media.

So are we ****ed?

Are we therefor doomed to first endure a total collapse? This would mean that things will have to get MUCH MUCH worse before they can improve.

It suggests that a dark age looms ahead for the US.

Am I missing something, here?

[spdirty]

They would have to compromise.....plain and simple!

You and TexanBob are closer on domestic policy than these 2. Hell theres a better chance that Mike Malloy and Rush Limbaugh will embrace and start cohosting a show than these 2 making a campaign work.

[cutthemdown]

Yeah but Paul is opposed to govt doing much in peoples lives. Could that coexist with Kuchinic?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah but Paul is opposed to govt doing much in peoples lives. Could that coexist with Kuchinic?

I don't see how it could.

[Rohirrim]

Remember what happened to Ron Paul's campaign in '08?

It was torpedoed by the corporate media.

The jackals in the MSM worked tirelessly to paint Paul as some sort of nutjob.

The corporatists who control the levers of power in America no longer need to carry out assassinations of leaders or potential leaders - they have a massive media infrastructure (30+ years in the making) to achieve the same net result.

Yeah, but nobody pays any attention to the media. That's why it doesn't matter if corporations have no limits on the cash they can spend to influence elections.

[rastaman]

Yeah, but nobody pays any attention to the media. That's why it doesn't matter if corporations have no limits on the cash they can spend to influence elections.

The Media are the Coroprations. The Corporations are the media. Right!

There is nothing "United" about the "United States" Anymore.

[rastaman]

You and TexanBob are closer on domestic policy than these 2. Hell theres a better chance that Mike Malloy and Rush Limbaugh will embrace and start cohosting a show than these 2 making a campaign work.

Well IMHO if Paul and Kucinich can't come together and compromise for the good of what's left of our once great Democratic-Republic.....then the Gilded Age, sefdom, and the Robber Barons will descend on this country not seen since the 1870-1920's. Private mercenary armies will rule over our Military and the Private Corporate Mercenaries and the Armed forces will turn their guns on the American public-citizens on behalf of the Corporations to keep law and order.

Simply put.....by 2013 this will not be the country we knew in 2001. The citizens earning btwn minimum wage and $100K will be screwed. The 3,000 Millionaires, Billionaires, and Uber Billionaires will rule and lord over 300 plus million Americans.

[TailgateNut]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py8cXlLyX18

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9a4...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By_zx...eature=related


Kucinich and Ron Paul (or Vice versa) could be a game changing dynamo to unseat the Corporate Republicans and Democrats that have ruled the WH since 1981.

I voted for Dennis in the primaries. But so many other people were so focused on mainstream media, which was refusing to cover him because he was too much of a threat, so they wound up choosing our now President-elect Barrack Obama. I am glad I voted for Obama but it seems more likely that Obama will govern to the center and appease both the Corporate Repub and Dems to the point he becomes vulnerable enough in 2012.

If Kucinich-Paul ticket in 2012 were able to get/garner 40-47 million votes as an independent Ticket, they could take enough votes away from both the GOP and the Obama 3rd Way-DLC Democrats for an EPIC UPSET.....and perhaps save our Democratic Republic from turning into a Fascist Corporate State.


Considering that Kucinich had my vote before I had to give it to Obama to save the country and the world from McCain and Stupid, I'd give this one some serious thought. Paul has some ideas I agree with, but is also a bit nutso with some of his other brainfarts.

[spdirty]

Well IMHO if Paul and Kucinich can't come together and compromise for the good of what's left of our once great Democratic-Republic.....then the Gilded Age, sefdom, and the Robber Barons will descend on this country not seen since the 1870-1920's. Private mercenary armies will rule over our Military and the Private Corporate Mercenaries and the Armed forces will turn their guns on the American public-citizens on behalf of the Corporations to keep law and order.

Simply put.....by 2013 this will not be the country we knew in 2001. The citizens earning btwn minimum wage and $100K will be screwed. The 3,000 Millionaires, Billionaires, and Uber Billionaires will rule and lord over 300 plus million Americans.

So your saying that Obama is now NOT our ubersavior? That the only hope left for this country rests with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich's ability to compromise?

And people think Im just joking when I tell this guy to stop taking his gov't issue meds.:loopy:

[orinjkrush]

a huge problem is the dickweed Rs and Ds in the congress. even if Kuc and/or Paul were elected can you spell jesse ventura?

[TheDave]

That's a lot of crazy on one ticket...

[bronclvr]

One thing is for sure-we need someone other than Obama or Bush in there-

[rastaman]

So your saying that Obama is now NOT our ubersavior? That the only hope left for this country rests with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich's ability to compromise?

And people think Im just joking when I tell this guy to stop taking his gov't issue meds.:loopy:

Well I could "Perfect" Fence Straddling like you have and just become a cynic!

[rastaman]

So your saying that Obama is now NOT our ubersavior? That the only hope left for this country rests with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich's ability to compromise?

And people think Im just joking when I tell this guy to stop taking his gov't issue meds.:loopy:

Roman citizens filled the Arenas as Rome burned!!! You and your ilk will be fighting over the last life jacket!

[Hizaki]

The media machine appears to be invincible. It is firmly in the control of the corporate fat cats. The media is not going to reform itself. Nor is there any way for us to do it.
Yet, at the same time -- there is no way to move this country in the direction we need to go without the media.
So are we ****ed?

I don’t think we are, at least not in regards to the media. Don’t forget about the power of the internet and small talk radio. They are very powerful tools to spread information and are great ways to educate people. As many on this thread stated, the MSM is all government and corporate propaganda. If you have to watch any of the major networks to get your “news”, well then you are doomed. People have to learn to turn their TV’s off and search for information in other venues. There is tons of info out there, and yes you have to sift through a lot of junk to get to the good stuff, but if you make an effort than it’s very much possible.

[Hizaki]

Paul has some ideas I agree with, but is also a bit nutso with some of his other brainfarts.

Would you give us some examples of why you think Paul is nutso, or just list some of his brainfarts? I know it's the popular thing to say about him, but I just wonder if there is any backing to this?

[TheDave]

Would you give us some examples of why you think Paul is nutso, or just list some of his brainfarts? I know it's the popular thing to say about him, but I just wonder if there is any backing to this?

Gold standard... Competing currencies... abolishing the federal reserve.

[Hizaki]

Gold standard... Competing currencies... abolishing the federal reserve.

I’ll reply in three posts addressing each topic you mentioned. First, here is an article, by the man himself, arguing for competing currencies. This lays the groundwork for the other two subjects.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=557

“Much has been made recently about the supposed economic recovery. A few blips in a few statistics and many believe our troubles are all over. Of course, they have to redefine recovery as "jobless" to account for the lack of improvement on Main Street. But the banks have money, Wall Street is chugging along, and the administration would like to get on with other agendae.

They have even set up a commission to investigate the crisis as if it were all in the past.

The truth is that Americans are still losing jobs, the Fed is still inflating, and more regulations are in the works that will prevent jobs and productivity from coming back. We are on this trajectory for the long haul. The claim has been made many times that this administration has only had a year to clean up the mess of the last administration. I wish they would at least get started! Instead of reversing course, they are maintaining Bush's policies full speed ahead. They are even keeping the Bush-appointee in charge of the Federal Reserve! They are not even making token efforts at change in economic policy. And for all the talk of transparency, we hear that some powerful senators will do all they can to block a simple audit of the powerful and secretive Federal Reserve.

We have been on a disastrous course for a long time. The money supply has doubled in the last year, our debt is unsustainable, the value of the dollar is going to continue its drop, and those Americans who understand where we are headed feel helpless and held hostage by foolish policy makers in Washington. When the bills finally come due and the dollar stops working we are in for some real social, economic and political chaos. That is, unless we take some major steps now to allow for a peaceful transition in the future. These steps are laid out in my legislation to legalize competing currencies.

First of all, no one should be compelled by law to operate in Federal Reserve notes if they prefer an alternative. We should repeal legal tender laws and allow Americans to conduct transactions in constitutional money. Only gold and silver can constitutionally be legal tender, not paper money. Instead, it is illegal to conduct business using gold and silver instead of Federal Reserve notes. Simply legalizing the Constitution should be a no-brainer to anyone who took an oath of office. Consequently, private mints should be allowed to mint gold and silver coins. They would be subject to fraud and counterfeit laws, of course, and people would be free to use their coins or stay with Federal Reserve notes, as they see fit. Finally, we should abolish taxes on gold and silver, which puts precious metals at a competitive disadvantage to paper money.

The Federal Reserve is a government-sanctioned banking cartel that has held far too much power for far too long and is in the end stages of running the dollar into the ground, and our economy along with it. The very least Congress can do, if they are not willing to abolish the Fed, and perhaps not even conduct a serious audit of it, is to allow citizens the freedom to defend themselves from being completely wiped out by their monopoly power.”

[TheDave]

First of all, no one should be compelled by law to operate in Federal Reserve notes if they prefer an alternative. We should repeal legal tender laws and allow Americans to conduct transactions in constitutional money. Only gold and silver can constitutionally be legal tender, not paper money. Instead, it is illegal to conduct business using gold and silver instead of Federal Reserve notes. Simply legalizing the Constitution should be a no-brainer to anyone who took an oath of office. Consequently, private mints should be allowed to mint gold and silver coins. They would be subject to fraud and counterfeit laws, of course, and people would be free to use their coins or stay with Federal Reserve notes, as they see fit. Finally, we should abolish taxes on gold and silver, which puts precious metals at a competitive disadvantage to paper money.



There is not enough gold in the world to back the U.S. economy... until you figure out how to accomplish that, this argument is useless.

[Hizaki]

Why should the Federal Reserve (which is no more “Federal” than Federal Express) be abolished, or at the least become transparent and be audited? One reason could be that the dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the institution. Second, because they engage in secret financial dealings with other nations and banks without the knowledge or approval of the US Congress or the American people. The FED manipulates interest rates, when these rates should be set by the market. Their policies created the housing crisis, and the coming commercial real estate and bond crisis. The FED is a collection of central banks having ultimate control over our monetary system, when Congress should have sole authority.

Here is an excerpt from a Thomas Woods article discussing what the FED might be hiding:

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=28522

“They are hiding something here that they don't want the general public to see. I suspect it might have to do with gold transactions. It's just a gut feeling, but my gut tells me the Fed leased out most of, if not all, of its gold somewhere under $500 per ounce, probably under $350. Thus, in order for central banks, who borrowed the gold (and then sold it to raise cash), to pay the Fed back in gold, they would now have to go and buy gold back at three to four times the price they sold it at. In other words, a number of central banks aided and abetted by the Fed are now short huge amounts of gold and are losing more money everyday gold ticks up. And the Fed is in the embarrassing position of having loaned the gold out and is afraid to call in the gold loans, since it would put enormous pressure on parts of the central bank cabal and push the gold price much higher, the exact opposite of the Fed's intentions when they leased the gold out.”

[Hizaki]

There is not enough gold in the world to back the U.S. economy... until you figure out how to accomplish that, this argument is useless.

Very much true, gold is a scarce material. However, who would suffer most if we went back to a gold standard? It would be the major banks and Wall Street. Do we really need Wall Street in its present, corrupt form? Do we need the big, speculative banks? Would you miss them?

Of course there would have to be major reform planned out by people much smarted than I and we would have to go through a very tough period (probably 5-10 years). But Americans are a resilient bunch and we would come out stronger in the end.

The whole notion that going back to a gold standard is going backwards in progress is false and is a lie. Do you know why the Founding Fathers explicitly stated that only gold and silver coins should be legal tender? Was it because it was all they knew? No. It was because they understood what paper, backed by nothing, will do to the financial system of a country.

[TheDave]

Why should the Federal Reserve (which is no more “Federal” than Federal Express) be abolished, or at the least become transparent and be audited? One reason could be that the dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the institution. Second, because they engage in secret financial dealings with other nations and banks without the knowledge or approval of the US Congress or the American people. The FED manipulates interest rates, when these rates should be set by the market. Their policies created the housing crisis, and the coming commercial real estate and bond crisis. The FED is a collection of central banks having ultimate control over our monetary system, when Congress should have sole authority.

Here is an excerpt from a Thomas Woods article discussing what the FED might be hiding:

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=28522

“They are hiding something here that they don't want the general public to see. I suspect it might have to do with gold transactions. It's just a gut feeling, but my gut tells me the Fed leased out most of, if not all, of its gold somewhere under $500 per ounce, probably under $350. Thus, in order for central banks, who borrowed the gold (and then sold it to raise cash), to pay the Fed back in gold, they would now have to go and buy gold back at three to four times the price they sold it at. In other words, a number of central banks aided and abetted by the Fed are now short huge amounts of gold and are losing more money everyday gold ticks up. And the Fed is in the embarrassing position of having loaned the gold out and is afraid to call in the gold loans, since it would put enormous pressure on parts of the central bank cabal and push the gold price much higher, the exact opposite of the Fed's intentions when they leased the gold out.”

Sorry but I'm no more interested in thomas woods "gut instincts" than I am Gaffneys

[TheDave]

Very much true, gold is a scarce material. However, who would suffer most if we went back to a gold standard? It would be the major banks and Wall Street. Do we really need Wall Street in its present, corrupt form? Do we need the big, speculative banks? Would you miss them?

Of course there would have to be major reform planned out by people much smarted than I and we would have to go through a very tough period (probably 5-10 years). But Americans are a resilient bunch and we would come out stronger in the end.

The whole notion that going back to a gold standard is going backwards in progress is false and is a lie. Do you know why the Founding Fathers explicitly stated that only gold and silver coins should be legal tender? Was it because it was all they knew? No. It was because they understood what paper, backed by nothing, will do to the financial system of a country.

Again there is not enough gold to support the U.S. economy... Period. You would have to devalue the dollar by a factor of 6, and that's if you magically got every ounce of gold that exists.

Assuming that impossible task could actually happen you would then divide our economy by a factor of 6 while the rest of the world continued as is... effectively making us a 3rd world country because you fail to fully understand fiat currency or fractional reserve banking.

The problem we are experiencing is because of:

-100% unregulated derivative market

-Modification of laws that allowed our banks to become investment warehouses

-Said warehouses were allowed to leverage their assets at a 30 to 1 ratio.

This had nothing to do with whether or not gold backed our currency.

[Requiem]

Good luck getting an independent party for Presidency legitimacy on a ballot.

[Hizaki]

Sorry but I'm no more interested in thomas woods "gut instincts" than I am Gaffneys

Do you know who Thomas Woods is? He is a member of the Mises Institute, an economic expert and has researched the Federal Reserve more extensively than probably any other person in the world. Also, I provided the quote to give you an idea what specific actions might be taking place behind the scenes, since it is hard for most of us to understand gibberish like collateralized debt obligations, or mortgage default swaps. Of course if you just want to ignore the facts and expert opinions then there is not much else I can do.

[TheDave]

Do you know who Thomas Woods is? He is a member of the Mises Institute, an economic expert and has researched the Federal Reserve more extensively than probably any other person in the world. Also, I provided the quote to give you an idea what specific actions might be taking place behind the scenes, since it is hard for most of us to understand gibberish like collateralized debt obligations, or mortgage default swaps. Of course if you just want to ignore the facts and expert opinions then there is not much else I can do.

You did not present a single fact... all you presented was the "gut instinct" of someone who holds a PhD in history and was a community college teacher until 3 years ago.

Sorry but that doesn't make him an expert on the Federal Reserve.

[Meck77]

Dave....The dollar is already destined to be devalued by the value of 6 or even 10 IMO.

Who'd a thought that the WRP forum would already be looking to 2012 with a Kucinich/Paul ticket just a year after Obama took office. Sometimes things have to get uglier before they can get cleaned up.

I'd back the ticket if it means getting us out of the war and cleaning up the crooks at the Fed. I think those guys could do it.

The American people have to get angry enough. Internet chatter won't do it but it's a start. We just need guys like LABF to start spamming the net. Ha!

Kucinich/Paul 2012!!!!!!!!!!

[TheDave]

Dave....The dollar is already destined to be devalued by the value of 6 or even 10 IMO.



Well then, after the world goes Mad Max and our economy shrinks to 1/10th it's current size... then we can look at the gold standard.

Until then we are forced to deal with reality...

[TheDave]

many foreign countries won't even accept our dollars anymore. I tried to use them in Costa rica. They said no. I have family in poland. Use to send them dollar. They said nobody wants them. It's coming.

Meck were allowed to have these conversations in public...

Though I can appreciate your experience, lets not kid ourselves. A resort in Costa Rica and a relative in Poland is not an accurrate predictor of armegeddon.

[Meck77]

I'm talking about commerce in general. Nations that once accepted American dollar for their stability in trade are no longer taking them. When I say my "family" it really means that those dollars are useless to the general population that once freely used the American dollar to buy food, beer, even houses. I'm not talking Armageddon. I'm talking about having to convert the once almighty dollar to the polish Zoloty so my family can buy goods and services. It's pretty wild actually.

[TheDave]

I'm talking about commerce in general. Nations that once accepted American dollar for their stability in trade are no longer taking them. When I say my "family" it really means that those dollars are useless to the general population that once freely used the American dollar to buy food, beer, even houses.

The Dollar is still the standard for international commerce... again your sample size consists of a resort in Costa Rica and word of mouth from a family member in Poland.

Sorry but that's not enough to predict armegeddon. Specifically a devaluation of our economy to 1/10 it's current size.

[Meck77]

Dave I'm trying to keep it simple so you can grasp it. Just wait until China stops buying our debt. You'll get it sooner or later. I don't know how much time you spend in other countries but we aren't as great as we think we are.

[TheDave]

Dave I'm trying to keep it simple so you can grasp it. Just wait until China stops buying our debt. You'll get it sooner or later. I don't know how much time you spend in other countries but we aren't as great as we think we are.

Unfortunately, I think the simplicity of the story is the only reason you grasp it... But by all means keep believing your world travels have any meaning to anyone but you.

[Hizaki]

You did not present a single fact... all you presented was the "gut instinct" of someone who holds a PhD in history and was a community college teacher until 3 years ago. Sorry but that doesn't make him an expert on the Federal Reserve.

There is not much I disagree with in your previous post, where you state that ridiculous lending standards and the unregulated derivatives market are in part responsible for the current crisis. Where I disagree is this statement:

“This had nothing to do with whether or not gold backed our currency.”

The above would not have been possible under a gold standard. Banks would have to have gold reserves and would not be able to lend at 30:1 or even 50:1. The derivatives market simply could not have been created. Banks could not have become “investment warehouses”. It’s really that simple.

Now let’s move onto the quoted segment. No, the above certainly doesn’t make you an expert in anything. But his research on the subject matter does. If only you would have done a little more than a quick Google search on him and spent some time listening to his interviews and read his columns then I am sure you would change your mind. In addition, trying to discredit someone’s expert opinion because they taught at a community college is a pretty weak effort at best.

His book collection:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods-collection.html

Oh and you say I didn’t state any facts? How about these:

Dollar lost 95% of its value since creating the FED and abandoning the gold standard in stages.

The FED engages in secret dealings with other countries and they won’t tell Congress any of the details. (Just find some videos on the Bernanke hearing on Youtube).

The FED sets interest rates, which is responsible for inflating various market “bubbles”.

The FED is responsible for the housing market collapse.

Here is another video that explains why we should end the FED:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfmPlHsYYk0

It is only part one so you will have to click on the subsequent videos on Youtube.

[TheDave]

There is not much I disagree with in your previous post, where you state that ridiculous lending standards and the unregulated derivatives market are in part responsible for the current crisis. Where I disagree is this statement:

“This had nothing to do with whether or not gold backed our currency.”

The above would not have been possible under a gold standard. Banks would have to have gold reserves and would not be able to lend at 30:1 or even 50:1. The derivatives market simply could not have been created. Banks could not have become “investment warehouses”. It’s really that simple.

Oy vey... Sorry boss but you do not understand enough about banking and currency to have this conversation. Leveraging of a banks assets would still be possible regardless of currency structure. Same with dirivatives.
So the collapse would have happened just the same.

What would not of happened is the gov'ts ability to react to the collapse.

Now let’s move onto the quoted segment. No, the above certainly doesn’t make you an expert in anything. But his research on the subject matter does. If only you would have done a little more than a quick Google search on him and spent some time listening to his interviews and read his columns then I am sure you would change your mind. In addition, trying to discredit someone’s expert opinion because they taught at a community college is a pretty weak effort at best.

His book collection:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods-collection.html

Oh and you say I didn’t state any facts? How about these:

Great you accept him as an expert... I do not. IMO you are taking the word of a history major to explain nuclear physics. Todays economic instruments especially the dirivative market requires a little more education and experience than the JC Teacher has.



Dollar lost 95% of its value since creating the FED and abandoning the gold standard in stages.

Since abandoning the gold standard in 1972 our GDP has grown by more than 600%... seems like a fair trade off.

The FED engages in secret dealings with other countries and they won’t tell Congress any of the details. (Just find some videos on the Bernanke hearing on Youtube).

Here come the conspiracy theories...

The FED sets interest rates, which is responsible for inflating various market “bubbles”.

and deflating others... it's a ban\lancing act and a necessary one in todays economy.

The FED is responsible for the housing market collapse.

100% false





Now before we take this fairy tale any further why don't you show me how we will accumulate all the gold in the world then go about devaluing our economy to fit you dream of having a 'Gold Standard"

[Hizaki]

Oy vey... Sorry boss but you do not understand enough about banking and currency to have this conversation.

No need to get arrogant; try to have a discussion without belittling your opponent "boss".

Great you accept him as an expert... I do not. IMO you are taking the word of a history major to explain nuclear physics. Todays economic instruments especially the dirivative market requires a little more education and experience than the JC Teacher has.

For the last time, he is an expert on finances and economics, much more so than anyone posting on this football message board, including you. Just because you don’t “accept” him does not make it otherwise. Second, I don't only take his opinion but the other thousands of Austrian Economists out there, along with other market experts (Jim Rogers, Marc Faber, Gerald Celente, Peter Schiff, Hans Hoppe). They have a pretty good grasp on the subject. I don't get my information from one source, regardless the subject.

Here come the conspiracy theories...

What conspiracy theory? Are you really too lazy to look up a single video?
When representative Greyson questions Bernanke on where the money went, the Fed chairman smugly says “I don’t know.” Half a trillion dollars and he doesn’t know, yeah right. The FED does not answer to the US Congress. It is an independent agency. What a mind-blowing conspiracy.

Since abandoning the gold standard in 1972 our GDP has grown by more than 600%... seems like a fair trade off.

And look where it took us: to the edge of collapse. But of course that is just another conspiracy theory, since everything is hunky-dory in the US, right? Don’t even let me get into how GDP, CPI, inflation and unemployment figures are all manipulated by the government to show favorable statistics. But why would I even bother, I don’t understand enough on banking and currency to have a say.

Look Dave, I don’t have all the answers. I am not an economist, but I am by no means ignorant or undereducated when it comes to this subject. It’s great you have your opinion and I have mine. I respect yours and am not here to get into endless arguments. Bottom line is Ron Paul, while you might disagree with him, is not a loon or a crazy. He is a man with principles, a true conservative, and one that understands the US economy much better than any of us. He is somebody the Founding Fathers would be proud of.

[TheDave]

No need to get arrogant; try to have a discussion without belittling your opponent "boss".





Like I have said SEVERAL times... Show me how we will:

1. Acquire all the gold in the world that would be necessary to back even a small part of our economy.

2. How do you go about devaluing our economy enough to fit your "Gold Standard" fairytale.

3. Explain what happens when our economy grows beyond the valuation and physical limits of this particular natural resource.

4. Explain how we would overcome the SIGNIFICANT disadvantage American companies and banks would face when competing against others backed by fiat currency and fractional reserve banking methods... Specifiacally international trade and anything that involves the exchange of monies or letters of credit.


Until those "little things" are cleared up everything you are talking about is all pure fantasy... and anyone trying to sell me a fantasy is either a crook or a nut. I prefer to look at RP as a loveable little nut and not a crook.


Oh and by the way, I would put my financial and economic knowledge up against "Thomas Woods" (and his 1 book on the subject) any day.

[cutthemdown]

People may find this shocking but there isn't near as much Gold as you think. The Dave totally correct Gold would need to be about 500 thousand an ounce to back the countries wealth. Say goodbye to gold anything. That is unless you plan to just revamp total world economy and make 1 dollar worth a lot. It's just a stupid idea.

[cutthemdown]

The Dave taking the new guy to school. Remember you said you wanted to be open minded? Right now you look stupid. Listen to what he is saying he knows what he is talking about. Returning to a gold standard totally unfeasible. To suggest it shows how little you understand about how much gold there even is in the world.

[Hizaki]

The Dave taking the new guy to school. Remember you said you wanted to be open minded? Right now you look stupid. Listen to what he is saying he knows what he is talking about. Returning to a gold standard totally unfeasible. To suggest it shows how little you understand about how much gold there even is in the world.

Once again, I am a new poster, but been reading the Mane for 4 years, so definitely not the "new guy". Second, I am open minded and just trying to have a discussion on a subject where I disagree with someone. No one is "looking stupid", or gets "taken to the shed" even if he/she comes out at the losing end of an argument. At least you had a viewpoint even if it was wrong. I know that's a difficult concept to wrap one’s mind around.

Now let’s move onto the subject of the amount of gold available. I am well aware there is a limited amount and it is very expensive to mine. That is why it makes sense to go back to the gold standard. It is a limited commodity and you cannot just produce as much as you want (unlike printing paper).

Now I am not going to write a book about this (because to answer Dave I would have to) but will give you material that you will have to research to decide whether it is feasible or not. If you read books by Mises, Rothbard, Hoppe or Hazlitt you will have a much better understanding, since they laid the groundwork for such a change (return to a gold standard). I am going to leave you with two links both of which explain in great detail how a return would be possible.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/how-to-return-to-the-gold-standard/#

http://www.thomasewoods.com/blog/how-to-return-to-gold/

The rest is up to you. You can come in here and call me names, or do a bunch of reading and accept that someone might have a different opinion.

[Hizaki]

I left one out (by Robert Murphy) that I wanted to include as well:

http://mises.org/daily/3368

Hope this helps.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Kucinich is a weirdo.

It would be voting for a little weirdo that looks like a creepy child molester and a guy that used to look at and manipulate vaginas for a living, but I would give it some thought.

[epicSocialism4tw]

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Rep_Dennis_Kucinich.jpg

[rastaman]

Kucinich is a weirdo.

It would be voting for a little weirdo that looks like a creepy child molester and a guy that used to look at and manipulate vaginas for a living, but I would give it some thought.

Election aren't about a beauty contest. What is really weird the conservative ideology. But I digress.:thumbsup:

[rastaman]

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Rep_Dennis_Kucinich.jpg

Here's a photo of Ron Paul to show us why inbreeding isn't a smart idea! :~ohyah!:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_4-0nmZ6BNDY/RnlO1L63vwI/AAAAAAAAAYU/MroXhh7xGBg/s320/Ron+Paul+-+Tin+Foil+hat+of+2008.jpg

[TheDave]

Hizaki,

Lets look at exactly what one of your articles actually says...
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/how-to-return-to-the-gold-standard/#

1st the author explains why we can not go in at an "artificicially high rate"...

Returning to Gold at an Artificially High Rate

To consider returning to the gold standard in the United States at the long-since outgrown ratios of $20.67, $35.00, or even $42.42 per ounce of gold is obviously completely unrealistic. The U.S. dollar is now selling (mid-1995) at about $385 so that the value of the dollar has declined to approximately 1/385th of an ounce of gold. To re-value it at 1/20th, 1/35th or even 1/42nd of an ounce of gold would constitute an artificially high revaluation of the dollar and would undoubtedly lead to even more disastrous consequences than those resulting from the return to gold in Britain in 1925.



Then he goes on to explain why you can not go into it at an "Artificially low rate"...

Returning to Gold at an Artificially Low Rate

An announcement that the U.S. planned to start paying something between $1,217 and $7,500 for an ounce of gold would immediately lead to the import of gold into this country at an unprecedented rate. It would spark a tremendous increase in gold mining, gold processing, and all related activities, to the detriment of all other production. To attempt to return to a gold standard at any such rate would be extremely disruptive of all prices and production. It would also destroy completely the value of all dollar savings and all outstanding contracts or commitments expressed in U.S. dollars. As practically all international production and trade depend on the dollar, this would bring business transactions to a halt worldwide.


He then explains that we could simply go into it at todays current rate...

In the first place, there is no shortage of gold. The size of the world’s population, and the extent of production and trade are immaterial; any amount of money will always serve all society’s needs


OK lets examine that...

According to this site (http://www.egold.com/how-much-gold-is-there-in-the-world/) there is about 4.8 Billion ounces world wide...

In all, roughly 150,500 tons of gold have been mined from the earth (according to 2003 stats from GFMS Limited). That’s 4.8 billion ounces. Or about equivalent to the weight of a supertanker – oil tankers that are among the world’s largest ships.

4,800,000,000 seems like a lot of gold and at todays prices of $1089.64 it would be worth a whopping 5,230,272,000,000 -or- $5.23 Trillion dollars.

Sounds like a lot of money... until you compare it to real life.

2008 GDP = $14.2 Trillion and that does not count the additional $8-900 billion that is floating in circulation or the $12.3 trillion worth of debt that would need to be addressed or some portion of the $1.6 trillion that trades hands on Wall Street every day.


See this is the problem with "Gold Standard" types. Their own documentation says you can not do it by artificially increaseing or decreaseing either the price of gold or the value of the dollar... Then they completely ignore the fact that there is not enough of this particular commodity in the entire world to accomplish their fairytale.

[Hizaki]

Dave,
First, thank you for the civil response; it makes discussion much easier and makes your point come through much clearer. Even though we disagree, and I have not changed my stance on this issue, I respect you opinion and your knowledge on the subject.

That said I want to address some of the things the article you quoted tried to illustrate. The author argues that returning to a gold standard at an artificially high or artificially low rate could have disastrous consequences. That is her opinion, even though Britain tried the former and failed, due in parts to the unions. Rothbard advocated a return at a low rate, which has not been tried so far. However, right after she makes her point on these two methods, she discusses the viability of returning to a gold standard at a market rate. Here is the important part of the article:

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/how-to-return-to-the-gold-standard/#

“The goal of returning to a gold standard must be (1) to reintroduce gold and gold coins as money, without producing deflation and without causing the economy to go into shock, while permitting the fulfillment of outstanding contracts, including those of the U.S. government to its bondholders, and (2) to arrange for the transfer of gold from the government’s holdings into private hands, so that gold coins would be in circulation daily. As pointed out above, before this can happen, there must be a major ideological shift in the climate of opinion. The voters must be willing to be more self-reliant and accept personal responsibility for their actions. And the politicians must refrain from asking for more government spending at every turn. If this ideological stumbling block to establishing a gold standard could be overcome, if the people were willing to forgo welfare state spending and were determined to reform their monetary standard and introduce gold money once more in the United States, and if politicians would cooperate, then a shift from our paper and credit monetary system could be accomplished without radically disrupting the market, prices, and production.
Advocates of the gold standard should not be deterred by the three reasons given by critics who believe a gold standard could not work: that there isn’t enough gold to serve the needs of the world, with its increasing population and its expanding production and trade; that gold would be an unstable money; and that a gold standard would be expensive.
In the first place, there is no shortage of gold. The size of the world’s population, and the extent of production and trade are immaterial; any amount of money will always serve all society’s needs.[1] Actually, people don’t care about the number of dollars, francs, marks, pesos, or yen, they have in their wallets or bank accounts; what is important to them is purchasing power. And if prices are free and flexible, the available quantity of money, whatever that may be, will be spread around among would-be buyers and sellers who bid and compete with one another until all the goods and services being offered at any one time find buyers. In this way, the available quantity of money would adjust to provide the purchasing power needed to purchase all available goods and services at the prevailing competitive market prices. “

After all of this she lists the steps that need to be taken in order to make the switch.

“First: All inflation must be stopped as of a certain date. That means calling a halt also to all expansion of credit through the Federal Reserve and the commercial banks.
Second: Permit gold to be actively bought, sold, traded, imported, exported. To prevent the U.S. government from exerting undue influence, it should stay out of the market for the time being.
Third: Oscillations in the price of gold would diminish in time and the “price” would tend to stabilize. At that point a new dollar-to-gold ratio could be established and a new legal parity decreed. No one can know what the new dollar-to-gold ratio would be. However, it is likely that it would stabilize a little above the then-current world price of gold, whatever that might be.[3]
Fourth: Once a new legal ratio is established and the dollar is newly defined in terms of gold, the U.S. government and the U.S. Mints may enter the market, buying and selling gold and dollars at the new parity, and minting and selling gold coins of specified weights and fineness. Gold might well circulate side by side with other moneys, as it did during the fiat money inflation time of the French Revolution, so that parallel moneys would develop, easing the transition to gold.[4]
Fifth: The U.S. Mint should mint gold coins of certain agreed-upon fineness and of various weights—say one-tenth of an ounce, one-quarter, one-half, and one ounce, etc.—and stand ready to sell these gold coins for dollars at the established parity and to buy any gold offered for minting.[5] As old legal tender dollars were turned in for gold, they should be retired, so that gold coins would gradually begin to appear in circulation.
Sixth: The financing of the U.S. government must be divorced completely from the monetary system. Government must be prevented from spending any more than it collects in taxes or borrows from private lenders. Under no condition may the government sell any more bonds to the Federal Reserve to be turned into money and credit; monetization of the U.S. government’s debt must cease! A 100 percent reserve must be held in the banks for all future deposits, i.e., for all deposits not already in existence on the first day of the reform.
Seventh: Outstanding U.S. government bonds held by non-U.S. government entities, must be fulfilled as promised.[6]
Eighth: To avoid deflation, there should not be any contraction of the quantity of money currently in existence. Thus prices and outstanding debts would not be adversely affected. U.S. government bonds held by the Federal Reserve as “backing” for Federal Reserve notes may be retained, but should not be used as the basis for further issues of notes and/or credit. No bank may be permitted to expand the total amount of its deposits subject to check or the balance of such deposits of any individual customers, whether private citizen or the U.S. Treasury, otherwise than by receiving cash deposits in gold, legal tender banknotes from the public or by receiving a check payable by another bank subject to the same limitations.[7]
Ninth: The funds collected over the years from employees and employers, ostensibly for Social Security, were spent as collected for the government’s general purposes. Thus the U.S. government bonds held as a bookkeeping ploy in the so-called Social Security Trust Fund are mere window-dressing. These U.S. bonds may be canceled. To keep its “promises” to those who have been led to expect “Social Security” benefits in their old age, arrangements could be made to phase out the program by a number of devices, including payments from the general tax fund to current retirees, to the soon-to-be-retired and, on a gradually declining basis, to others in the system—down to, say, ages 40-45 years. The program could then be closed down. No more Social Security “benefits” would be paid out and no more taxes would be collected for “Social Security.” People would have to become personally responsible for planning for their own old age and retirement. Without “Social Security” taxes to pay, they would be better able to save. Moreover, given a sound gold standard, they would be confident that their savings would not be wiped out by inflation.”

She then goes on about what must happen after this restructuring. I love Austrian Economics; it is a hobby of mine to read up on the Austrian business cycle even though I am not an economist. I believe moving back to a gold standard would be possible; no question there would have to be a major shift in our ideology, an incredible cut-back on government spending and we would have to abandon the welfare state. We would also have a period of great hardship, I think that’s inevitable. But the difficult times are already here and we are only in the beginning stages of a major depression. Thanks for the good debate, looking forward to more in the future.

[TheDave]

This is such a frustrating argument... Your own source agrees that it is likely impossible to accomplish at non market value prices. Additionally, I have provided actual, undeniable proof that this is impossible to accomplish at market value.

Let me post this again, these are the actual estimates of the ENTIRE gold supply in the world. (Like the phrase says: All the gold in the world)

4,800,000,000 seems like a lot of gold and at todays prices of $1089.64 it would be worth a whopping 5,230,272,000,000 -or- $5.23 Trillion dollars.

Sounds like a lot of money... until you compare it to real life.

2008 GDP = $14.2 Trillion and that does not count the additional $8-900 billion that is floating in circulation or the $12.3 trillion worth of debt that would need to be addressed or some portion of the $1.6 trillion that trades hands on Wall Street every day.

Again, the author admits you can not inflate or deflate the price of gold to fix this problem... yet a few paragraphs later comes out with this head scratcher.

In the first place, there is no shortage of gold. The size of the world’s population, and the extent of production and trade are immaterial; any amount of money will always serve all society’s needs.

That is a blatantly false statement. If a bushel of crops require 100 gallons of water to grow and there is not enough water available, it is intellectually dishonest not to mention a bit crazy, to say the required amount of water is immaterial.

I have always wondered if Austrian Economics are specifically for the mathmaticly challenged. Statemnts like the above are helping to solidify my opinion.

Please explain to me how $5 Trillion dollars worth of gold can support an economy that produces $15 Trillion annually?

[Rohirrim]

Kucinich is a weirdo.

It would be voting for a little weirdo that looks like a creepy child molester and a guy that used to look at and manipulate vaginas for a living, but I would give it some thought.

Child molester? That's low, even for you. Here's Dennis with his wife:

http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/9d751139e5_ltpKucinich030508.jpg

An OB is a guy who "manipulates vaginas?" You should be ashamed of yourself.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Child molester? That's low, even for you. Here's Dennis with his wife:

I said he looks like a weirdo, which its clear that he does. Evidently he has a thing for (much) younger women as well.

An OB is a guy who "manipulates vaginas?" You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ha! I know what a gynecologist does, and I still find it peculiar that a man would choose to specialize in that field when there are so many others. Some of the most awkward guys I know are GYN's. One guy used to basically sexually harass his staff all the time...inappropriate butt pats, sweet talk...blech!

[Rohirrim]

I said he looks like a weirdo, which its clear that he does. Evidently he has a thing for (much) younger women as well.



Ha! I know what a gynecologist does, and I still find it peculiar that a man would choose to specialize in that field when there are so many others. Some of the most awkward guys I know are GYN's. One guy used to basically sexually harass his staff all the time...inappropriate butt pats, sweet talk...blech!

How can somebody reach the exalted heighths that you have attained, oh great judge of mankind?

[epicSocialism4tw]

How can somebody reach the exalted heighths that you have attained, oh great judge of mankind?

You may like Kucinich (and I said nothing of his politics), but you have to admit that he looks like a weird TV character.

Have a sense of humor, dude. Dont be so defensive.

[55CrushEm]

How can somebody reach the exalted heighths that you have attained, oh great judge of mankind?

Holy ****in' hypocrisy, Batman!! Jesus, these guys get so upset if you crack jokes at someone with a (D) by their name.....yet that's all they do of the R's......too funny.

[Arkie]

Please explain to me how $5 Trillion dollars worth of gold can support an economy that produces $15 Trillion annually?

Today's dollars are so devalued that it would take much more than 1100 of them to equal 1 oz of gold. That's when people will realize that paper gold and physical gold are two totally different things.

[TheDave]

Today's dollars are so devalued that it would take much more than 1100 of them to equal 1 oz of gold. That's when people will realize that paper gold and physical gold are two totally different things.

What?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. The real value of gold as of yesterday was $1089.64. That's not an imaginary number thats actually the amount people are willing to pay for an ounce of gold.


Is this another one of those... Gold will trade at 5K per once by the end of the year predictions?

[Arkie]

The paper exchange is where the price of gold is manipulated daily. It's highly leveraged at about 140 oz of paper gold to 1 oz of physical. They would default if everybody took delivery. They've already failed to deliver repeatedly by settling future gold contracts with cash only. There's not enough gold to pay everybody's claims on it. Gold won't likely trade at 5K this year, but it will someday on it's way to the top.

[mhgaffney]

McSkillet

prefers the macho lying deceitful monster war criminal Bush

who LOOKED GOOD sauntering across the stage of history

in his phony cowboy boots

to the admittedly uncharismatic BUT HONEST

Kucinich who tells it the way it is.

Unbelievable. Incredible.

McSkillet you are about as deep as the water in my wash basin.

[JJJ]

Kucinich wants another New Deal. Enough said. Full on nut case.

Paul is a good small government guy and a strict constitutionalist. Polar oppposite of Kucinich. Paul wants to eliminate the Fed. Admirably but wholely impractical and puts him on the fringe when he could be commanding more of the center. Why he would align himself with Kuccy is not rational.


I like Paul for the most part.

And most important he is a big fan of Grover Cleveland, my favorite president. Yes, I know Grover was was a Democrat and technically a liberal but he was a classical liberal, those committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, and assembly, and free markets. He was also the hardest working and most honest president in history and wasn't afraid to veto bad legistlation and bust a union or two. There is a reason he was on the $1000 bill.

[epicSocialism4tw]

McSkillet

prefers the macho lying deceitful monster war criminal Bush

who LOOKED GOOD sauntering across the stage of history

in his phony cowboy boots

to the admittedly uncharismatic BUT HONEST

Kucinich who tells it the way it is.

Unbelievable. Incredible.

McSkillet you are about as deep as the water in my wash basin.

Criticism from you is like getting yelled at by your friends crazy drunken loony toon of a grandfather.