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View Full Version : Talent vs. Character: Could trading Marshall be addition by subtraction?


montrose
01-24-2010, 04:05 PM
I thought about this based on some comments in other threads along the line of "You don't get better by trading a guy with three 100 catch seasons," while others have pointed to the Cowboys losing Owens and finally winning a playoff game.

So I ask, IS IT POSSIBLE that the Broncos could become a better team by getting rid of Marshall? Some possible arguments:

Yes: Everybody in the NFL has some talent and it's the club with better chemistry that work as a team that win. By ridding themselves of Marshall (and presumably Scheffler), the Broncos no longer have any divas on their roster and take the field with 53 guys who don't care about their stats or roles on the team. A squad that cares about nothing else but winning could make the Broncos better. Also, without the need of feeling the ball has to be fed into Marshall, Orton (or any other Broncos QB) could relax and spread the ball around. No more distractions, just football.

No: At the end of the day, talent rules all. He is one of, if not the best, WR in all of football and a guy that defenses have to account for on every play. He was a monster in this offense catching over 100 balls and 10 touchdowns. The rest of the WRs may be nice guys but none of them could do that and the offense would sorely suffer without him. Whether Marshall is a problem child or not, he's the only guy on this team that opponents have to gameplan for. The teams with the best players win and he's one of the team's best players - you have to do whatever you need to accomodate him. Preferental treatment, paying him big money, dealing with off-field or locker room issues - the guy is simply too good to let him go and there is no possible the way the Broncos lose him and don't get worse.

peacepipe
01-24-2010, 04:14 PM
Depends on what you get in return.

RhymesayersDU
01-24-2010, 04:17 PM
Depends on what you get in return.

Exactly. I like BMarsh, I've been a proponent of his, but it seems that he's on his way out. If we give him up for nothing, I don't care how bad his attitude is we will not get better. But if we score well on the trade, then I'm sure we can get better.

Part of the problem will also be we will most likely get draft picks, and you have to give them 2-3 years to develop, etc.

TheDave
01-24-2010, 04:19 PM
Addition by subtraction... no, he is too talented and productive for that too happen.

On the other hand if we could get significant compensation for his production then... maybe.

BMarsh615
01-24-2010, 04:19 PM
6'5'' 240 pound WR's don't come around very often. He was the only player on offense that teams had to worry about.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 04:29 PM
Exactly. I like BMarsh, I've been a proponent of his, but it seems that he's on his way out. If we give him up for nothing, I don't care how bad his attitude is we will not get better. But if we score well on the trade, then I'm sure we can get better.

Part of the problem will also be we will most likely get draft picks, and you have to give them 2-3 years to develop, etc.

if we got dez bryant, thats addition. hes being compared to andre johnson.

Traveler
01-24-2010, 04:33 PM
I vote yes. While I'd hoped for Marshall to stay, his bailing on the team at the end of the season was the last straw for me. Not to mention how he'll act once he gets his millions.

Get fair value for him and keep rebuilding. It seems like a lot of folks here seem to forget that we are rebuilding.

RhymesayersDU
01-24-2010, 04:37 PM
if we got dez bryant, thats addition. hes being compared to andre johnson.

I don't follow college ball enough to know who is good and who isn't... That said, if Dez Bryant was even in the vicinity of Andre Johnson, then I fully agree we'd be just as good if not better.

WolfpackGuy
01-24-2010, 04:38 PM
No divide by zero option?

RhymesayersDU
01-24-2010, 04:39 PM
The other problem with a question like this is the offense has a lot of moving parts. Tom Brady proved you don't need a superstar WR to win Super Bowls. A great QB can make WRs look good. Pierre Garcon killed it today with Peyton throwing his way.

If we could get a legit QB (you all know my thoughts on Orton...) then we may not need BMarsh either way.

gyldenlove
01-24-2010, 04:49 PM
Everything is possible, hypothetically we could get the next Jerry Rice or Peyton Manning.

Here is how I look at it, how many players in the league today are better than Marshall at any position? 100? 200? Lets just assume for a minute that every team has 4 players regardless of position who are better than Marshall in some way. That is about 120 players for the league.

Considering all 32 teams have 80 players on the roster during the offseason, that is about 1/20 which is 5%. That is about where I would put the chances that we can improve by getting rid of Marshall. In the last 10 drafts, we have only drafted 2 players you could realistically say are better than Marshall, Clady and Dumervil - but some other teams have done better.

To me the odds are heavily in favour of us not improving by getting rid of Marshall, it will take a strong mix of luck and scouting above and beyond what we have displayed lately to improve.

elsid13
01-24-2010, 04:52 PM
I don't follow college ball enough to know who is good and who isn't... That said, if Dez Bryant was even in the vicinity of Andre Johnson, then I fully agree we'd be just as good if not better.

he not. He closer to Crabtree then Johnson. He doesn't have the vertical speed that Johnson does. He is a very good player but he not a top 5 player like Johnson was coming out of UM.

oubronco
01-24-2010, 05:12 PM
if we got dez bryant, thats addition. hes being compared to andre johnson.

Dude living here in OK, Bryant is a headcase as well

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 05:14 PM
So, let's get this straight. The team couldn't find a role for Royal, but there is an expectation of getting a rookie to replace Mashall right away. Good luck with that.

Doggcow
01-24-2010, 05:16 PM
So, let's get this straight. The team couldn't find a role for Royal, but there is an expectation of getting a rookie to replace Mashall right away. Good luck with that.

Eddie has a pretty unique skillset, with his size it's sometimes limits what he can actually do.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 05:21 PM
Eddie has a pretty unique skillset, with his size it's sometimes limits what he can actually do.

So if you are an offensive genius you figure out how to get that kind of guy the ball. That sort of dropoff in production is not an endorsement of the offensive ccodinator.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 05:22 PM
he not. He closer to Crabtree then Johnson. He doesn't have the vertical speed that Johnson does. He is a very good player but he not a top 5 player like Johnson was coming out of UM.

ive read 2 scouts who said his skillset is very similar to andre johnson, and also said he is better than crabtree coming out.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 05:24 PM
ive read 2 scouts who said his skillset is very similar to andre johnson, and also said he is better than crabtree coming out.

We also heard from you how McDaniels was taking the Broncos to the playoffs. How did that turn out?

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 05:25 PM
We also heard from you how McDaniels was taking the Broncos to the playoffs. How di that turn out?

curious what this has to do with dez bryant, or really anything in general? i never predicted playoffs preseason because too much stuff was changing, but i never cried about teh team being relocated because cutler is gone either.

sorry i support the team, ill try not to in the future.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 05:27 PM
anyway, hes what the twitter ex-scout said:

RT @jonnyj20 (http://twitter.com/jonnyj20): is Andre Johnson the best comparison for Dez Bryant?> I have used that comparison... body types are almost identical

andre may be the best in the NFL so we cant say hes that good obviously but if he has a chance, its worth looking into.

WolfpackGuy
01-24-2010, 05:27 PM
Eddie has a pretty unique skillset, with his size it's sometimes limits what he can actually do.

Royal can't do much of anything when he's not targeted.

There's just no excuse for not looking his way.

Doggcow
01-24-2010, 05:30 PM
Royal can't do much of anything when he's not targeted.

How are you supposed to target a small speed wr, if your QB can't throw it effectively downfield, because he has no time, and he doesn't have the most powerful arm, to hit him deep? Eddie isn't an exceptional option over the middle due to his size.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 05:31 PM
curious what this has to do with dez bryant, or really anything in general? i never predicted playoffs preseason because too much stuff was changing, but i never cried about teh team being relocated because cutler is gone either.

sorry i support the team, ill try not to in the future.

If you can't get a proven NFL reciever the ball, how can you project a rookies succes? Is it that hard for you too figure out. Sorry, forgot for a minute who I was talking too. Damn your a laugh riot.

As far as moving the team? Wow, talk about coming out of crazy field. Get it together man.

WolfpackGuy
01-24-2010, 05:32 PM
How are you supposed to target a small speed wr, if your QB can't throw it effectively downfield, because he has no time, and he doesn't have the most powerful arm, to hit him deep? Eddie isn't an exceptional option over the middle due to his size.

You left out the QB can also only make one read.

Rabb
01-24-2010, 06:34 PM
glad to see a really solid question/thread submarined by the same morons arguing

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 06:43 PM
tsignorant can't help himself. Ask an intelligent question and he dissapears. All he knows is the love of McDaniels knows no logic.

TonyR
01-24-2010, 06:53 PM
I don't care for this scouting report of Bryant.

Strengths:
Above average height
Good muscle definition
Great hands
Will come back to the quarterback and present a window
Dominant on jump balls
Attacks ball at apex
Gets off line of scrimmage
Coordinated and can adjust to the ball
Knows how to set up a receiver and flip their hips
Athletic
Nice sideline awareness
Tough to tackle
Explosive punt returner
Good running vision
Decent amount of upside
Weaknesses:
Route running is still suspect
Rounds off digs and deep outs
Not very fast
Lacks deep speed
Could be more elusive
Doesn't always generate maximum YAC
Needs to eat up cushion more quickly in off man
Needs to work on reading coverages as he does not always identify the zone
A little sluggish coming out of breaks

Summary: Bryant is a talented receiver, but he doesn't seem to project as a No. 1 wideout at the next level. He has the skill set of a dominant No. 2 who can really help a quarterback in the red zone and on third down.

Player Comparison: Chad Ochocinco. Ochocinco and Bryant have very similar builds and great ball skills, but unfortunately lack above average speed.

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2010dbryant.php

spdirty
01-24-2010, 06:54 PM
Get fair value for him and keep rebuilding. It seems like a lot of folks here seem to forget that we are rebuilding.

Then how long do we have to wait and how many more stars and good players do we have get rid of before we're done rebuilding and can start EXPECTING results?

Popps
01-24-2010, 06:59 PM
Sure, I do think anything is possible with regards to trades and player movement. Marshall is a big weapon but he's not the only weapon in the league. Plenty of guys have to be accounted for on every play. There are probably 10 receivers as effective as Marshall in the league, if not more.

It's tough to find guys with his kind of talent. But, he's not the only guy that could be effective for us. I do believe his attitude and off-field problems present a concern, and you do have to weigh those concerns when thinking about his value to the team.

My hope is still that we can lock him up, and that he continues to mature. My experience in watching these things pan out tells me that this won't be the case.

2KBack
01-24-2010, 07:05 PM
I still flip flip on Marshall on a daily basis almost.

I think the offense will be better next season regardless of whether Marshall is here or not. That said, I think that improved offense could only be better still with a happy, motivated, Marshall. I think he is a little overrated by the board here, but is certainly a nice weapon. I wish he wasn't a headcase though. Every day I log on I expect to read about an arrest or some other drama from him.

Taco John
01-24-2010, 07:16 PM
Of course it's possible. But I am not so sure about probable.

Pick Six
01-24-2010, 07:23 PM
Doesn't Bryant have the same agent as Crabtree? I don't need to say anymore about that...

colonelbeef
01-24-2010, 07:25 PM
if we got dez bryant, thats addition. hes being compared to andre johnson.

That means absolutely nothing. Speculation versus realized talent.

There is not 1 team in the league that would rather have Dez Bryant over Brandon Marshall

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 07:46 PM
So if you are an offensive genius you figure out how to get that kind of guy the ball. That sort of dropoff in production is not an endorsement of the offensive ccodinator.

I think Eddie is the reason we're a better team without Marshall. I think he is overshadowed by Marshall, but no less talented. I think he has the ability to replace 90% of Marshall's production.

Blueflame
01-24-2010, 07:46 PM
If we trade Marshall for draft picks, then we're trading known value for potential value. I'd like to see one good reason for blind faith that McDaniels would be able to find equal value (to Marshall's... a WR that absolutely must be accounted for on every offensive down) in the draft. His draft-day performance last year was underwhelming.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 08:00 PM
I think Eddie is the reason we're a better team without Marshall. I think he is overshadowed by Marshall, but no less talented. I think he has the ability to replace 90% of Marshall's production.

Oh yes, because McDaniels has shown he knows exactly how to take advantage of his talent.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:15 PM
Oh yes, because McDaniels has shown he knows exactly how to take advantage of his talent.
How has he shown that in Marshall's absent Eddie won't get more productive? We saw what happened with Gaffney when Marshall was absent.

We saw what Eddie did last year in Marshall's absence. Why wouldn't we see similar results in the future?

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:16 PM
If we trade Marshall for draft picks, then we're trading known value for potential value. I'd like to see one good reason for blind faith that McDaniels would be able to find equal value (to Marshall's... a WR that absolutely must be accounted for on every offensive down) in the draft. His draft-day performance last year was underwhelming.

We're also trading a known headache.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 08:18 PM
How has he shown that in Marshall's absent Eddie won't get more productive? We saw what happened with Gaffney when Marshall was absent.

We saw what Eddie did last year in Marshall's absence. Why wouldn't we see similar results in the future?

And how did Royal look in Marshall's absence? Pretty much like he did the rest of the year. Got any excuses for that? A single game is one thing, but what happened all year?

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:20 PM
Um, do you mean the last game when Royal didn't play due to injury?

Blueflame
01-24-2010, 08:22 PM
We're also trading a known headache.

He's a player who has a past history of off-the-field problems. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that he's put those personal problems behind him, however... and you cannot deny that his value on the field isn't something you find every day....

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:25 PM
His most recent act as a Bronco caused a headache. How does that signal that his issues are behind him?

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 08:26 PM
Um, do you mean the last game when Royal didn't play due to injury?

So we get to ignore the other 15 games he was less than a factor in? I love to talk to you guys. More excuses than McDaniels has running plays. Maybe you could consult. I'm sure he could use the input.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:29 PM
So we get to ignore the other 15 games he was less than a factor in? I love to talk to you guys. More excuses than McDaniels has running plays. Maybe you could consult. I'm sure he could use the input.

Uh, we're talking about what he did in Marshall's absence, remember? I'm pretty sure Marshall wasn't absent during the rest of the season.

Blueflame
01-24-2010, 08:30 PM
His most recent act as a Bronco caused a headache. How does that signal that his issues are behind him?

Sorry... I'm not sure I blame him. After all, it's his career that could have been affected by practicing hard with a hamstring injury. And he hasn't had that great of past experiences with the team's medical staff.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
And the coach couldn't find a way to use him. But you cling to your ideals, they are all you have.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:33 PM
Sorry... I'm not sure I blame him. After all, it's his career that could have been affected by practicing hard with a hamstring injury. And he hasn't had that great of past experiences with the team's medical staff.
Shanahan called him out for nursing injuries as well. Is that really the type of player you want representing the Broncos? A me firster?

Sorry, I want guys who will sell out for their teammates and the fans.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:36 PM
And the coach couldn't find a way to use him. But you cling to your ideals, they are all you have.

Not really, but if that gets you to sleep.

If you want to continue to imagine that this team would be better off with Shanahan and his staff, go ahead. I'm happy to leave you in the past while I move forward with a team which I think has great prospects under McDaniels.

Blueflame
01-24-2010, 08:41 PM
Shanahan called him out for nursing injuries as well. Is that really the type of player you want representing the Broncos? A me firster?

Sorry, I want guys who will sell out for their teammates and the fans.

Is it better if he risks a possible career-ending injury? An NFL career can end in a heartbeat in a fluke accident, so I don't blame any player for wanting to be paid when they're worth it. Oh, btw... if the front office had really been interested in keeping Marshall (and keeping him a happy camper)... paying him sooner rather than waiting until he's mere days away from free agency just might have sent a better message to "the player" (meaning he already knew this front office wasn't committed to him regardless of what he did or how he played).

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 08:46 PM
Not really, but if that gets you to sleep.

If you want to continue to imagine that this team would be better off with Shanahan and his staff, go ahead. I'm happy to leave you in the past while I move forward with a team which I think has great prospects under McDaniels.

You are sad, come with an arguement or simply be quiet. You and your fellow superfans have more excuses than Orton 3 and outs.

spdirty
01-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Shanahan called him out for nursing injuries as well. Is that really the type of player you want representing the Broncos? A me firster?

Sorry, I want guys who will sell out for their teammates and the fans.

Id rather have guys that will help my team win games.

UberBroncoMan
01-24-2010, 09:15 PM
Possible is a horrible word to use.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE... so naturally the answer is yes.

Is it REALISTIC??? **** no.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 09:24 PM
So we get to ignore the other 15 games he was less than a factor in? I love to talk to you guys. More excuses than McDaniels has running plays. Maybe you could consult. I'm sure he could use the input.

you are pretty ridiculous man. you go absolutely out of your way to insult anyone who doesnt absolutely hate mcdaniels. others like bpc atleast just have ridiculous unfounded hate for the guy who coaches the team he supposedly likes, but you, you take it to another level, and no one on this forum even knows who you are.

uplink
01-24-2010, 10:24 PM
trade him for Boldin and another player or pick. Act real nice to him and then in a few years after he has screwed up after getting paid, pick him up again for a bargain.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 10:31 PM
you are pretty ridiculous man. you go absolutely out of your way to insult anyone who doesnt absolutely hate mcdaniels. others like bpc atleast just have ridiculous unfounded hate for the guy who coaches the team he supposedly likes, but you, you take it to another level, and no one on this forum even knows who you are.

Sadly we all know who you are, and you agenda is clear. If you consider facts and result insults, then maybe you should take some time and have a look at your life.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 10:33 PM
Sadly we all know who you are, and you agenda is clear. If you consider facts and result insults, then maybe you should take some time and have a look at your life.

my agenda? my agenda is to enjoy watching and discussing a sport in which i ultimately have absolutely zero control over the outcome. bitching, moaning and crying wont get me anywhere farther with it, nor will discussing with morons like you who think mcdaniels ruined a franchise a year after going 8-8. whats your agenda, to convince everyone that mcdaniels is the worst coach of all time right?

24champ
01-24-2010, 10:34 PM
I don't think the Broncos will trade Marshall and then try to replace him through the Draft. It's not a smart move, and a move I disagree with. Dez Bryant looks like a good WR, but I am beginning to wonder if he is a little overhyped.

That being said, I would like to see the Broncos focus on other areas of the team if we get some draft choices as compensation for Marshall.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 10:46 PM
my agenda? my agenda is to enjoy watching and discussing a sport in which i ultimately have absolutely zero control over the outcome. b****ing, moaning and crying wont get me anywhere farther with it, nor will discussing with morons like you who think mcdaniels ruined a franchise a year after going 8-8. whats your agenda, to convince everyone that mcdaniels is the worst coach of all time right?

McDaniel's is not the worst coach of all time, and if you could find some objectivity you would see he is open to criticism, just like any coach, GM, offensive coordiator. And there in lies the problem. We all thought it was best if the power structure change after Shanny, and Bowlen said as much. But instead we have a first time head coach/GM/offensive coodinator in one that is making rookie mistakes and learning on the job. I expect more than that from this franchise, and it's sad that you don't.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 10:50 PM
McDaniel's is not the worst coach of all time, and if you could find some objectivity you would see he is open to criticism, just like any coach, GM, offensive coordiator. And there in lies the problem. We all thought it was best if the power structure change after Shanny, and Bowlen said as much. But instead we have a first time head coach/GM/offensive coodinator in one that is making rookie mistakes and learning on the job. I expect more than that from this franchise, and it's sad that you don't.

have you not read any of my posts jackass? i hvae said since day one its perfectly acceptable and fair to criticize him for what he has done wrong. very few people here do that. they twist and spin facts to make it seem like he has never done anything right, refuse to admit that this team is not near as bad as they want it to be and that mcdaniels has done many positive things in his first year as head coach. its all about why mcdaniels is such an idiot poopyface and how he destroyed the franchise, theres no criticism, its pure hatred and nothing more.

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 10:57 PM
have you not read any of my posts jackass? i hvae said since day one its perfectly acceptable and fair to criticize him for what he has done wrong. very few people here do that. they twist and spin facts to make it seem like he has never done anything right, refuse to admit that this team is not near as bad as they want it to be and that mcdaniels has done many positive things in his first year as head coach. its all about why mcdaniels is such an idiot poopyface and how he destroyed the franchise, theres no criticism, its pure hatred and nothing more.

So, you believe we have found our frachise QB, that losing Marshall is a good thing and that Smith is the future at CB. And you also believe that this team would have won the same amount of games or more if Nolan wasn't the defensive coodinator. So tell me something he has done that has worked to make an improvement for the team. I said at the beginning of the season he needed to go 9-7 to show some kind of turnaround. And the team needed to finish the season strong, not fade like the last few years. Tell me what we have to look forward too oh sage of the football gods.

strafen
01-24-2010, 11:00 PM
Depends on what you get in return.And that's the key.
McDaniels has not earned my confidence in knowing what he's doing when it comes down to get players to build this team for the future.
His "winning now" mentality will be his own destruction, and the destruction of my team!

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 11:04 PM
So, you believe we have found our frachise QB, that losing Marshall is a good thing and that Smith is the future at CB. And you also believe that this team would have won the same amount of games or more if Nolan wasn't the defensive coodinator. So tell me something he has done that has worked to make an improvement for the team. I said at the beginning of the season he needed to go 9-7 to show some kind of turnaround. And the team needed to finish the season strong, not fade like the last few years. Tell me what we have to look forward too oh sage of the football gods.

when did i ever say orton is the franchise, and ive said since day one i dont like the smith trade. guess waht, mcdaniels isnt perfect and every decision he makes isnt going to be perfect, its part of being a head coach in the NFL. nolan was running mcdaniels defense, mcdaniels was a far greater part of the defense than most people want to admit. mcdaniels job as a head coach is to assemble staff, which he did a frickin fantastic job of, get players in from fa, again a great job, and draft, which was questionable. his preparation for games this year has been something i dont think denver has seen in a long time, as many players have talked about situational football and preparation all year.

he just went 8-8 in his first year of being head coach while installing new systems on offense and defense. with a year under their belts, both sides should be better, as well as mcdaniels having a better grasp on the roster and where its weak so he can fix those spots. what is there NOT to like about going into next year? what other alternative do you have if you dont, sit here and bitch at us who like the direction of the team and want to see it get better?

scttgrd
01-24-2010, 11:13 PM
I'll admit his start was a great one, my question is what happened after the bye week? Was the scheme figured out? Did he outsmart himself? There were some good pickups in free agency. How many would have still come knowing the kind of tumoil there would be in the rest of the offseaon?

He said before the season to judge him by the wins. Well, right now I see a mediocre coach that was given a young up and coming offense and took a step back. I see a defense that he had a greater hand in fade down the stretch. So why am I not excited you ask?

fontaine
01-25-2010, 02:46 AM
Trading one of the best possession WRs in the game when our entire passing offense was based around him would be just crazy considering we have him under contract as an RFA.

Again, Marshall isn't going to go anywhere. This isn't like the Cutler situation where the player specifically did everything to get out. Marshall has voiced no such opinion.

As a matter of fact, Marshall/McD have done exactly the right thing after this whole deal. Neither one is going on sports shows or giving press conferences about the situation. Both have shut up about it which is the right way to go.

elsid13
01-25-2010, 03:43 AM
Shanahan called him out for nursing injuries as well. Is that really the type of player you want representing the Broncos? A me firster?

Sorry, I want guys who will sell out for their teammates and the fans.

Shanahan didn't call him out in public. He went to him in training camp and told him, after time for rest and recovery, that in NFL player play with that injury and he had choice to be in the NFL or go back to college. Marshall got the message and started to participate at train camp.

tsiguy96
01-25-2010, 03:55 AM
I'll admit his start was a great one, my question is what happened after the bye week? Was the scheme figured out? Did he outsmart himself? There were some good pickups in free agency. How many would have still come knowing the kind of tumoil there would be in the rest of the offseaon?

He said before the season to judge him by the wins. Well, right now I see a mediocre coach that was given a young up and coming offense and took a step back. I see a defense that he had a greater hand in fade down the stretch. So why am I not excited you ask?

there clearly wasnt that much turmoil if they came out of the gates going 6-0, think about it. its not about one player, its about teh team, and the team has improved.

he was a mediocre coach in his first season, sounds about right, so does that mean he has zero room to improve, especially after listening to his season ending presser where he bluntly admitted most of teh things he did wrong? the offense didnt take as much a step back as most want to admit and the defense, even with their collapse, was still 4 ppg better than last year AFTER the bye week this year. talent caught up with the team on defense, the fact that they got so much out of those guys the first 6 weeks is amazing. look at who was starting in our front 7. now with another offseason to get better talent, you think they will get worse? come on. things are not NEAR as bad as you want to admit, they went 8-8 last year no one should be imploding over that

montrose
01-25-2010, 04:29 AM
I wish I had rephrased the question a bit, I didn't want this to become a Marshall vs. compensation argument but rather can a player like Marshall's issues as a distraction and a diva be so great they overshadow his contributions as a player? Consider this, I believe the best passing performances (in terms of yardage) that both Cutler and Orton had with the Broncos were without Marshall in the lineup. Just a thought, but it's where I was going with the thread - lets say you cut Marshall, no compensation at all, is it possible you can become a better team without him?

Blueflame
01-25-2010, 04:47 AM
I wish I had rephrased the question a bit, I didn't want this to become a Marshall vs. compensation argument but rather can a player like Marshall's issues as a distraction and a diva be so great they overshadow his contributions as a player? Consider this, I believe the best passing performances (in terms of yardage) that both Cutler and Orton had with the Broncos were without Marshall in the lineup. Just a thought, but it's where I was going with the thread - lets say you cut Marshall, no compensation at all, is it possible you can become a better team without him?

In a word... no. I don't believe for an instant that you let a player with that kind of talent go... with zero compensation for him... and come out a better team. He isn't the kind of WR who hits the turf with the first contact (arm tackles will not bring Brandon down)... he'll run over 3 or more defenders and still make decent YAC.

His talent outweighs any off-the-field baggage he brings, IMHO.

TheDave
01-25-2010, 07:52 AM
I wish I had rephrased the question a bit, I didn't want this to become a Marshall vs. compensation argument but rather can a player like Marshall's issues as a distraction and a diva be so great they overshadow his contributions as a player? Consider this, I believe the best passing performances (in terms of yardage) that both Cutler and Orton had with the Broncos were without Marshall in the lineup. Just a thought, but it's where I was going with the thread - lets say you cut Marshall, no compensation at all, is it possible you can become a better team without him?

Unfortunately, he's too good...

There are many players that could easily fall under the heading of "addition by subtraction", but a WR that put up 3 straight 100 catch 1,000 yard seasons is too valuable on the field to just cut him for his current off field rap sheet.

jhns
01-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Not really, but if that gets you to sleep.

If you want to continue to imagine that this team would be better off with Shanahan and his staff, go ahead. I'm happy to leave you in the past while I move forward with a team which I think has great prospects under McDaniels.

So Marshall isn't a team player because the Broncos medical staff is dumb? He was called out the same as this season for not playing with an injury that didn't exist. He then had to go get surgery on the hip that wasn't injured because real doctors found a serious injury.... Great example.

2KBack
01-25-2010, 08:41 AM
Unfortunately, he's too good...

There are many players that could easily fall under the heading of "addition by subtraction", but a WR that put up 3 straight 100 catch 1,000 yard seasons is too valuable on the field to just cut him for his current off field rap sheet.

There's always that chance that McDaniel's offense might do for WR's what Denver's running scheme used to do for Running backs.

WolfpackGuy
01-25-2010, 08:46 AM
Unfortunately, he's too good...

There are many players that could easily fall under the heading of "addition by subtraction", but a WR that put up 3 straight 100 catch 1,000 yard seasons is too valuable on the field to just cut him for his current off field rap sheet.

Not to mention a 100/1,000 season with Orton as your QB is like a 200/4,000 season anywhere else.

TheDave
01-25-2010, 08:48 AM
There's always that chance that McDaniel's offense might do for WR's what Denver's running scheme used to do for Running backs.


Dear 2KBack,

I doubt it..

Signed,

Eddie Royal

~Crash~
01-25-2010, 09:04 AM
at some point flushing away talent causes a void in time in development and I am tired of people acting like you draft and wham SB contenders.


If we flush away all what is left of talent plan on a 4 or 5 year plan. I want a clean slate at this point. trade away all talent and players that will not be here in 4 or 5 years and get really young . McD has no clue but the system he runs and it showed down the stretch this past year ...

~Crash~
01-25-2010, 09:11 AM
In a word... no. I don't believe for an instant that you let a player with that kind of talent go... with zero compensation for him... and come out a better team. He isn't the kind of WR who hits the turf with the first contact (arm tackles will not bring Brandon down)... he'll run over 3 or more defenders and still make decent YAC.

His talent outweighs any off-the-field baggage he brings, IMHO.

you do not win with out a few impact players . We now have one ... and it looks like they want to run him out of town because he wants paid .

gtown
01-25-2010, 09:53 AM
We are never gonna get fair value for Marshall. Just pay the man. Put in contractual incentives for good behavior. Drafting Dez Bryant will likely have its own challenges (Crabtree style holdout) and he is just potential, not actual.

We should trade Scheff though. We don't feature the TE much, so lets get something for him while we can.

ScottXray
01-25-2010, 09:58 AM
you do not win with out a few impact players . We now have one ... and it looks like they want to run him out of town because he wants paid .

its not so much that he wants to get paid...he deserves to be compensated.

it's the question of what he is going to do WHEN he gets paid that is open to question. He has a history of making some really 'BAD" decisions and those decisions have directly impacted his teams ability to win, and make use of his talents. If he gets paid is he going to settle down and perform to that level AFTER that , or is he maybe going to turn into a complete clown and end up with a major suspension due to Celebrating his getting paid. He has been pretty sedate the last year....except the last week of the season. and I don't want to go into what that was all about or the fact that McD should have kept that in-house rather than in the press.

the point is he became a "problem" again, and that is pretty telling.

As to whether we CAN get better ...yes. with good compensation. Letting him walk without that is a definite no.

gyldenlove
01-25-2010, 10:15 AM
I wish I had rephrased the question a bit, I didn't want this to become a Marshall vs. compensation argument but rather can a player like Marshall's issues as a distraction and a diva be so great they overshadow his contributions as a player? Consider this, I believe the best passing performances (in terms of yardage) that both Cutler and Orton had with the Broncos were without Marshall in the lineup. Just a thought, but it's where I was going with the thread - lets say you cut Marshall, no compensation at all, is it possible you can become a better team without him?

I don't think that is ever the case. Terrell Owens I think we can all agree is the benchmark by whom all future locker room disturbances must be meassured, if we look back at the teams he has left: San Fransisco, Philadelphia and Dallas, are they better off purely because he left?

In San Fran, the 4 years before he left they won 32 regular season games, in the 7 years since then they have won 33. Not better off.

Philly, He was there in 2004, they made the super bowl and won 13 regular season games. Since then, they have won 11, 10, 9, 8 and 6 games, missed the playoffs twice and not been back to the super bowl. Not better off.

Dallas, They won 9, 13 and 9 games while he was there, making the playoffs twice. This year they won 11 games and made the playoffs. At best they are very slightly better off, but this is probably a wash.

There is at least some evidence to suggest that talent trumps poor personality. Considering that Marshall is nowhere near the lockerroom disturbance that Owens is, nowhere near the fellon that Pacman is so chances are his departure will have even less of a positive effect to outweigh the loss of talent.

bendog
01-25-2010, 10:29 AM
Plus, glydenlove, BM's antics have never actually been at his teammates. He wants to get paid. Owens TWICE called out his qb. Nobody can be allowed to do that. Garcia had a noodle arm, and McNabb seems to be a bit of a choke artist, but it's not like either truly sucked. BM is gonna get a suspension for off the field conduct before long, but in terms of lockerroom cancer .... he just isn't. BM doesn't divide a lockerroom into an "us v. them camp."

Taco John
01-25-2010, 10:32 AM
lets say you cut Marshall, no compensation at all, is it possible you can become a better team without him?


Maybe for one or two games.