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View Full Version : Dropoff Evident from Shanahan's Offense


epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:09 PM
This is just a surface evaluation based on total offense numbers, but the offense clearly stumbled from where they were in 2008 as far as statistics show. Mediator probably has a more extensive analysis that reveals more detail about specific things that have changed.


2008
23.1 ppg
6333 total yards
4471 passing yards 25td/18int
1862 rushing yards with 15td
4.8 yards per carry

2009
20.4 ppg
5463 total yards
3627 passing yards 21td/13int
1836 rushing yards with 9td
4.2 yards per carry

There is a clear difference between the two offenses. Almost 1000 yards and 10 TD's. 10 TD's is 60 points.

2008 Broncos offense gained more rushing yards, more passing yards, and scored more.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 02:13 PM
And defensively?

RMT
01-24-2010, 02:13 PM
yeah, and the players weren't running a new offensive scheme in 2008 either. unfair to make such a comparison.

Popps
01-24-2010, 02:15 PM
Dude, you had to start a thread for this dog-****?

The difference was less than 3 points per game, offset by a ***-load more turnovers last year.

We've been over this. Our offense was mediocre last season and our defense was a disaster.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 02:17 PM
I love how simple minded this take is.

It makes it easy to come back with things like this:

Defensive improvement> Offensive decline= McDaniels>Shanahan

snowspot66
01-24-2010, 02:20 PM
They also threw the ball about 120 times more in 08. With Orton's % statistics if he threw it 120 more times he probably would have had close to what Cutler had.

Popps
01-24-2010, 02:22 PM
I love how the thread calls for Mediator to come in and bash the team, too.

Sorry man, that's generally not his style.

NYBronco
01-24-2010, 02:23 PM
And the 2009 Bronco offense accomplished all that without a "franchise" QB.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 02:25 PM
Dude, you had to start a thread for this dog-****?

The difference was less than 3 points per game, offset by a ***-load more turnovers last year.

We've been over this. Our offense was mediocre last season and our defense was a disaster.

Seven. 30 in 08 to 23 in 09. Less than .5 turnovers per game different.

Seven is a ****load?

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:26 PM
I love how simple minded this take is.

It makes it easy to come back with things like this:

Defensive improvement> Offensive decline= McDaniels>Shanahan

I didnt say anything about Shanahan being "better" than McD. People read too much into things.

The thread is about the offense...I said nothing about the defense, which was clearly superior for most of the season.

WolfpackGuy
01-24-2010, 02:29 PM
They also threw the ball about 120 times more in 08. With Orton's % statistics if he threw it 120 more times he probably would have had close to what Cutler had.

His rag arm couldn't have handled it.

LOL

Dagmar
01-24-2010, 02:29 PM
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/tlmltmhp.jpeg

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:30 PM
I love how the thread calls for Mediator to come in and bash the team, too.

Sorry man, that's generally not his style.

Oh, quit whining.

I was deferring to someone who typically has a great analysis. I was saying that there is more to the story than what those numbers show, and that a guy like Mediator probably has that info.

Quit with the overreaction.

It would be nice just to be able to discuss the obvious rather than to have someone try to force the issue under the table because it doesnt fit in with
their message board agenda.

I got the same reaction here this time last year when I posted a Cutler analysis that revealed him as a problem.

misturanderson
01-24-2010, 02:32 PM
Seven. 30 in 08 to 23 in 09. Less than .5 turnovers per game different.

Seven is a ****load?

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the offense.

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:33 PM
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/tlmltmhp.jpeg

I have yet to read anything more than 2 cents from your little peanut gallery that you have ever contributed on this site.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 02:33 PM
They also threw the ball about 120 times more in 08. With Orton's % statistics if he threw it 120 more times he probably would have had close to what Cutler had.

Jay turned the ball over once every 30.8 dropbacks in 2008.
Kyle turned the ball over once every 38.6 dropbacks in 2009.

Better, but not nearly the improvement some make it out to be.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 02:34 PM
I'm pretty sure he was talking about the offense.

So was I, idiot.

The offense turned the ball over 30 times in 2008. In 2009 we turned the ball over 23 times.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 02:34 PM
I didnt say anything about Shanahan being "better" than McD. People read too much into things.

The thread is about the offense...I said nothing about the defense, which was clearly superior for most of the season.
And some people just don't read anything.

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:38 PM
Wow...this is what this board has turned into?

You post some statistics, beg the question for a more comprehensive statistical argument in general from anyone who may have one, and then you get a bunch of snarky, juvenile comments from the noncognitivists.

Football talk = internet nerd insults. Nice.

Does anyone talk football here anymore?

2KBack
01-24-2010, 02:39 PM
Hmmm, amazing drop off. Why hasn't this been discussed before?

It comes out to a difference of 0.9 yards per play. What a disaster. There's no way a system, player, front office, change could account for les than a yard per play.

Soul-Bronco
01-24-2010, 02:39 PM
This thread is a steamy pile of fail

WolfpackGuy
01-24-2010, 02:39 PM
Arizona had 30 turnovers in 2008 and made the Super Bowl...

Hmmm....

Meck77
01-24-2010, 02:40 PM
Oh, quit whining.

You should have thought about that earlier.

Dagmar
01-24-2010, 02:40 PM
I have yet to read anything more than 2 cents from your little peanut gallery that you have ever contributed on this site.

Retarded dramallama doesn't read anything I post!!

http://www.borev.net/ohnoes.jpg

































:yayaya:

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:40 PM
Hmmm, amazing drop off. Why hasn't this been discussed before?

It comes out to a difference of 0.9 yards per play. What a disaster. There's no way a system, player, front office, change could account for les than a yard per play.

It also translates to 60 points (70 if you add converted extra point tries) over the season. Those points would have gotten the Broncos into the playoffs.

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 02:42 PM
Retarded dramallama doesn't read anything I post!!

Goodness. You may want to quit while youre behind.

azbroncfan
01-24-2010, 02:43 PM
Wow...this is what this board has turned into?

You post some statistics, beg the question for a more comprehensive statistical argument in general from anyone who may have one, and then you get a bunch of snarky, juvenile comments from the noncognitivists.

Football talk = internet nerd insults. Nice.

Does anyone talk football here anymore?

Nope just soccer, Hillis, and MCD bashing. I don't care to do the stats but like a golf handicap lets throw out the top 2 scoring games and bottom 2 scoring games and see how the numbers add up. Stats can be deflected anyway you want and last years Offense sucked after the first 3 weeks and only average 20 ppg.

2KBack
01-24-2010, 02:48 PM
Jay turned the ball over once every 30.8 dropbacks in 2008.
Kyle turned the ball over once every 38.6 dropbacks in 2009.

Better, but not nearly the improvement some make it out to be.

An int every 45 attempts or one every 34. Over the course of a season, especially if throwing alot, that can be signifigant.

This isn't about Cutler and Orton though. To me it's about thinking that there wouldn't be growing pains for a offensive system change.

misturanderson
01-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Nope just soccer, Hillis, and MCD bashing. I don't care to do the stats but like a golf handicap lets throw out the top 2 scoring games and bottom 2 scoring games and see how the numbers add up. Stats can be deflected anyway you want and last years Offense sucked after the first 3 weeks and only average 20 ppg.

The most obvious reasons that the offense is not as good this year was: #1-a much more difficult defensive schedule that directly accounts for 2 of the 3 fewer ppg scored this year, #2-a completely new scheme with players that didn't necessarily fit the scheme in important positions, #3-injuries at key positions and age.

This very specific. topic has already been covered in detail probably 5 times.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 02:50 PM
It also translates to 60 points
And nearly all of those came in the first 3 games. After that, the offense was pedestrian and very inconsistent.

Dagmar
01-24-2010, 02:52 PM
Goodness.

Ooooh sailor!

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2826/handbag1.jpg

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 02:52 PM
This isn't about Cutler and Orton though. To me it's about thinking that there wouldn't be growing pains for a offensive system change.

Precisely.

Dagmar
01-24-2010, 02:53 PM
And nearly all of those came in the first 3 games. After that, the offense was pedestrian and very inconsistent.

Don't upset Drama with your "facts" and "logic".

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Hmmm, amazing drop off. Why hasn't this been discussed before?

It comes out to a difference of 0.9 yards per play. What a disaster. There's no way a system, player, front office, change could account for les than a yard per play.

You can't be serious. One yard per play is a HUGE amount...

.9 yards per play is the difference from the #1 offense in the league and middle of the road #16... and it's the same difference from #16 to #32...

2KBack
01-24-2010, 02:58 PM
You can't be serious. One yard per play is a HUGE amount...

.9 yards per play is the difference from the #1 offense in the league and middle of the road #16... and it's the same difference from #16 to #32...

dammmit dude, you are not supposed to go do research of your own.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 02:59 PM
An int every 45 attempts or one every 34. Over the course of a season, especially if throwing alot, that can be signifigant.

This isn't about Cutler and Orton though. To me it's about thinking that there wouldn't be growing pains for a offensive system change.

Yup. Btw, after the first half of the season when the wheels started to fall off the defense, Kyle average an int every 28 drop backs.

But all the Cutler haters can tell me again it has nothing to do with any pressure placed on the player by a porous defense.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 03:01 PM
IT WAS HIS FIRST YEAR AS HEAD COACH FOR ****S SAKE

you idiots expect a new coach and miracles to happen, guess waht this **** takes time. and mandatory C+P for the idiots on this forum



you can be critical of the coach, but going to a bronco fan message board and trying to convince other people who enjoy watching the team and the progress they make that teh coach has absolutely destroyed the team and the world is going to end is getting ****ing old, its been going on for almost a year now. if you hate everything that much, fine, but quit trying to ruin it for everyone else by telling us how bad it will be in the future, some of us actually enjoy following the team through the offseason without that bull**** in every post.

what you will see is very few if ANYONE on this forum have blind faith in the team and the coach, but the people who hate mcdaniels with every fiber of their being seem to put that label on us because they want people who support the coach to be homer koolaid drinking idiots, when in fact we are fairly critical of the coach and every move he makes, but also realize taht he has done a lot of good for this team whether people want to admit it or not. a coach who goes 8-8 in his first year with new systems on both sides of the ball and has improved our scored/allowed ratio as much as he has has done a GREAT job, regardless if his 6-0 start didnt turn into a playoff appearance.

2KBack
01-24-2010, 03:02 PM
Yup. Btw, after the first half of the season when the wheels started to fall off the defense, Kyle average an int every 28 drop backs.

But all the Cutler haters can tell me again it has nothing to do with any pressure placed on the player by a porous defense.

meh, that argument will never be decided.

Popps
01-24-2010, 03:04 PM
Again, after the first 3 games of 08... we averaged LESS than we did this season.

The offense was crap. The QB was crap. The defense was the worst in the league.

Do we really need to go over and over this?

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:05 PM
IT WAS HIS FIRST YEAR AS HEAD COACH FOR ****S SAKE

you idiots expect a new coach and miracles to happen, guess waht this **** takes time. and mandatory C+P for the idiots on this forum



you can be critical of the coach, but going to a bronco fan message board and trying to convince other people who enjoy watching the team and the progress they make that teh coach has absolutely destroyed the team and the world is going to end is getting ****ing old, its been going on for almost a year now. if you hate everything that much, fine, but quit trying to ruin it for everyone else by telling us how bad it will be in the future, some of us actually enjoy following the team through the offseason without that bull**** in every post.

what you will see is very few if ANYONE on this forum have blind faith in the team and the coach, but the people who hate mcdaniels with every fiber of their being seem to put that label on us because they want people who support the coach to be homer koolaid drinking idiots, when in fact we are fairly critical of the coach and every move he makes, but also realize taht he has done a lot of good for this team whether people want to admit it or not. a coach who goes 8-8 in his first year with new systems on both sides of the ball and has improved our scored/allowed ratio as much as he has has done a GREAT job, regardless if his 6-0 start didnt turn into a playoff appearance.

No.

I'll say this as simply as possible so your dimwitted mind can follow:

We hired an offensive coach.
The offense regressed under the coach.
Our defense improved and our defensive coordinator ran out of town for a lateral move with a mediocre team.
The headcoach's fellow NE coordinator is taking a job elsewhere.

Thing's look strange. We'll see what the reality is by this time next year.

Popps
01-24-2010, 03:07 PM
Thing's look strange. We'll see what the reality is by this time next year.

Things are no more strange than having the worst D in the league... and bringing in Niko CantFindWorkess and Boss Bailey as the answer to your defensive problems.

Things may be turbulent, but no more so than the prior three ridiculous seasons.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 03:10 PM
No.

I'll say this as simply as possible so your dimwitted mind can follow:

We hired an offensive coach.
The offense regressed under the coach.
Our defense improved and our defensive coordinator ran out of town for a lateral move with a mediocre team.
The headcoach's fellow NE coordinator is taking a job elsewhere.

Thing's look strange. We'll see what the reality is by this time next year.

we hired an offensive coach with a complex system, we are noticeably lacking on interior OL depth and orton isnt exactly the QB savior, so the head coach only gets one year to prove hes any good?

in that case why have jim schwartz and spags kept their jobs so far? subtract the first 3 games of last year and this offense was better than last year, but that doesnt matter does it? this offense has regressed so much from the POWERHOUSE we had last year. but ignore those facts, or the fact that the defensive system here was mcdaniels, not nolans. he just said so today, this is the 2nd year this defense will be in this system and well have prolly the LB coach to keep it going.

why people wont give mcd credit for what he has done but blame him for everything thats gone wrong is crazy.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 03:11 PM
Things are no more strange than having the worst D in the league... and bringing in Niko CantFindWorkess and Boss Bailey as the answer to your defensive problems.

Things may be turbulent, but no more so than the prior three ridiculous seasons.

thats basically what it comes down to. shanahan had a way of convincing people he found the real answer to the problems of the team, and that a few FAs and we are superbowl contenders. mcdaniels doesnt, he just tries to get the actual results. but revisionist history says shanahan was a GREAT coach teh last decade and anything good thats happened this year is the result of everyone but mcdaniels.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:12 PM
Things are no more strange than having the worst D in the league... and bringing in Niko CantFindWorkess and Boss Bailey as the answer to your defensive problems.

Things may be turbulent, but no more so than the prior three ridiculous seasons.

You can't be serious there... things haven't been as turbulent as they have in the past year for the two prior decades that I can remember.

Secondly, go through the list of available FA's in 2008 and find some better players at those positions, and you get to use hindsight!

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 03:13 PM
You can't be serious there... things haven't been as turbulent as they have in the past year for the two prior decades that I can remember.

Secondly, go through the list of available FA's in 2008 and find some better players at those positions, and you get to use hindsight!

people said that last year, that mcdaniels destroyed this team and there was no hope. but guess whos saying it? the media, the people who fabricate stories because drama sells. mcdaniels responded by going .500 in his first year while making several people overachieve for atleast a little while.

because shanahan won 2 SBs here, his problems were overlooked because he was a GREAT coach, right? forget the fact that he ignored there is a defense on this team and in order to win it has to be atleast kinda good. but thats all forgiven since over a decade ago he won some SBs.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:18 PM
we hired an offensive coach with a complex system, we are noticeably lacking on interior OL depth

Best OL in the league in 2008.

and orton isnt exactly the QB savior,

Hand picked by McD.

so the head coach only gets one year to prove hes any good?

When did I say anything like that? I haven't said "fire him" once. I HAVE said there's several things to be pessimistic about and are very alarming

in that case why have jim schwartz and spags kept their jobs so far?

Because the Colts are having their best season since they won the superbowl and why do I give a **** about Spags to begin with?

subtract the first 3 games of last year and this offense was better than last year, but that doesnt matter does it?

And you're one of the same guys who ignores the 2-8 statements because the season is 16 games long... but here you can skew it however you see fit?

Also, how does the offense look when you remove running up the score vs KC or take out Eddie's 2 kick returns vs SD?

this offense has regressed so much from the POWERHOUSE we had last year. but ignore those facts, or the fact that the defensive system here was mcdaniels, not nolans. he just said so today, this is the 2nd year this defense will be in this system and well have prolly the LB coach to keep it going.

why people wont give mcd credit for what he has done but blame him for everything thats gone wrong is crazy.

You're not smart enough to have a discussion with me. Go hit the books son.

azbroncfan
01-24-2010, 03:18 PM
The most obvious reasons that the offense is not as good this year was: #1-a much more difficult defensive schedule that directly accounts for 2 of the 3 fewer ppg scored this year, #2-a completely new scheme with players that didn't necessarily fit the scheme in important positions, #3-injuries at key positions and age.

This very specific. topic has already been covered in detail probably 5 times.

Are you sure?

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:19 PM
people said that last year, that mcdaniels destroyed this team and there was no hope. but guess whos saying it? the media, the people who fabricate stories because drama sells. mcdaniels responded by going .500 in his first year while making several people overachieve for atleast a little while.

because shanahan won 2 SBs here, his problems were overlooked because he was a GREAT coach, right? forget the fact that he ignored there is a defense on this team and in order to win it has to be atleast kinda good. but thats all forgiven since over a decade ago he won some SBs.

Yes, I forget you started watching a couple years ago.

















:spit:

Okay that's not true, every post of yours is a reminder!

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:28 PM
You can't be serious there... things haven't been as turbulent as they have in the past year for the two prior decades that I can remember.


Bubby Brister would beg to differ.

AHH, selective memory, the salvation of the hopelessly subjective.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:30 PM
Hand picked by McD.



Using your own vernacular, name someone better.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 03:32 PM
Using your own vernacular, name someone better.

i think cool guy forgot the season cutler had. orton may not be great, but we had no other options for the year. but dont let facts get in the way of using half line insults to try and prove a point rev!

SureShot
01-24-2010, 03:33 PM
but dont let facts get in the way of using half line insults to try and prove a point rev!

oh the hypocrisy!

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:34 PM
Bubby Brister would beg to differ.

AHH, selective memory, the salvation of the hopelessly subjective.

Oh please... you think that compares to

our own QB drama last season,
along with the coaching overhaul,
firing our personnel guys just to be unprepared for the draft (as McD admitted),
coaches leaving town
???

yerner
01-24-2010, 03:35 PM
IT WAS HIS FIRST YEAR AS HEAD COACH FOR ****S SAKE

you idiots expect a new coach and miracles to happen, guess waht this **** takes time. and mandatory C+P for the idiots on this forum



you can be critical of the coach, but going to a bronco fan message board and trying to convince other people who enjoy watching the team and the progress they make that teh coach has absolutely destroyed the team and the world is going to end is getting ****ing old, its been going on for almost a year now. if you hate everything that much, fine, but quit trying to ruin it for everyone else by telling us how bad it will be in the future, some of us actually enjoy following the team through the offseason without that bull**** in every post.

what you will see is very few if ANYONE on this forum have blind faith in the team and the coach, but the people who hate mcdaniels with every fiber of their being seem to put that label on us because they want people who support the coach to be homer koolaid drinking idiots, when in fact we are fairly critical of the coach and every move he makes, but also realize taht he has done a lot of good for this team whether people want to admit it or not. a coach who goes 8-8 in his first year with new systems on both sides of the ball and has improved our scored/allowed ratio as much as he has has done a GREAT job, regardless if his 6-0 start didnt turn into a playoff appearance.

haha. you cry like woman.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:35 PM
Using your own vernacular, name someone better.

Jason Campbell was on the table. While I'm not a fan, he's better than Kyle.

i think cool guy forgot the season cutler had. orton may not be great, but we had no other options for the year. but dont let facts get in the way of using half line insults to try and prove a point rev!

Name one thing that wasn't a fact?

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 03:37 PM
Oh please... you think that compares to

our own QB drama last season,
along with the coaching overhaul,
firing our personnel guys just to be unprepared for the draft (as McD admitted),
coaches leaving town
???

you dont understand, this may have been drama to you and the media, it did NOT affect the team, as we saw especially out of the gates. lack of talent and some coaching decisions inevitably caused the slide, but this was problems that were overblown by fans and the media, not the actual people that matter.

and mcd didnt say he was unprepared for draft because he fired personnel guys, he was unprepared because most teams start the scouting process during the previous season, he had less than 4 months to make his list and get it narrowed down because he was hired late.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:39 PM
Oh please... you think that compares to

our own QB drama last season,
along with the coaching overhaul,
firing our personnel guys just to be unprepared for the draft (as McD admitted),
coaches leaving town
???

The BB saga divided the locker room far more than the Cutler trade, and had a far greater impact on the season. This years drama was over and done with before the season started, witness the 6-0 start. The BB drama had a direct negative impact on the season. There wasn't a Bronco player who wanted to play with SOB under center.

Pretending otherwise is just laughable, and yet par for the course with you.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:41 PM
Jason Campbell was on the table. While I'm not a fan, he's better than Kyle.

Again, to use your own vernacular: You're not smart enough to have a discussion with me. Go hits the books son.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Again, to use your own vernacular: You're not smart enough to have a discussion with me. Go hits the books son.

:rofl:

Stupid people amuse me.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:43 PM
:rofl:

Stupid people amuse me.

You must laugh a lot hanging out with yourself all day.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:45 PM
:rofl:

Stupid people amuse me.

Arguing that Jason Campbell could run this offense better than Orton is like arguing that your poop doesn't stink.

While maybe true in your own eyes everyone else is just wondering who the special kid in the corner is playing with his own poop.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:48 PM
The BB saga divided the locker room far more than the Cutler trade, and had a far greater impact on the season. This years drama was over and done with before the season started, witness the 6-0 start. The BB drama had a direct negative impact on the season. There wasn't a Bronco player who wanted to play with SOB under center.

Pretending otherwise is just laughable, and yet par for the course with you.

So you can't read?

The BB drama may very well be and head and shoulders above the Cutler drama... but it doesn't compare to the Cutler drama + the personnel FO people drama + the draft drama + the Marshall drama 3x + Coaches leave town

2KBack
01-24-2010, 03:49 PM
I can think of some signifigant dramas personally. The attempted trade of Al Wilson, the drafting of Cutler followed by midseason benching of Plummer, stripping Jim Bates of defensive play calling mideasons followed by asking him to accept a demotion at the end of the season, Trevor Pryce and his "little man upstairs," the percieved treatment of John Lynch at the end of his career.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 03:50 PM
So you can't read?

The BB drama may very well be and head and shoulders above the Cutler drama... but it doesn't compare to the Cutler drama + the personnel FO people drama + the draft drama + the Marshall drama 3x + Coaches leave town

How do you reconcile that take with the 6-0 start?

elsid13
01-24-2010, 03:53 PM
I can think of some signifigant dramas personally. The attempted trade of Al Wilson, the drafting of Cutler followed by midseason benching of Plummer, stripping Jim Bates of defensive play calling mideasons followed by asking him to accept a demotion at the end of the season, Trevor Pryce and his "little man upstairs," the percieved treatment of John Lynch at the end of his career.

The little man upstairs was made by IHOP after Shanahan had the team sit in the film room to show them why he was demoting/suspending him.

Lynch was done, and they told him such. Shanahan didn't have a choice Lynch no longer had the speed to play.

Plummer was disaster that season. See the Thanksgiving game in KC, for why he was benched.

Bates defense was failure and show again this season in Tampa were he was also fired.

Wilson while the trade sucked, made sense because they were attempting to get Tuck and 4th rounder.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 03:59 PM
Arguing that Jason Campbell could run this offense better than Orton is like arguing that your poop doesn't stink.

While maybe true in your own eyes everyone else is just wondering who the special kid in the corner is playing with his own poop.

Strange...

because with a significantly worse supporting cast in every single phase of the game (OL, running game, receivers AND defense) and without the "greatest offensive mind in football", he's directly on par with Kyle Orton...

But sure...

WolfpackGuy
01-24-2010, 03:59 PM
Anybody who questions the need for a good QB and good skill players needs to watch today's games.

3 of the 4 teams are where they are because of their offenses.

Hopefully, "The Coach" is taking notes.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 04:00 PM
How do you reconcile that take with the 6-0 start?

Great defense.

How do you reconcile Nolan leaving town in a lateral move and Dean Pees not accepting this job with his fellow NE coordinator?

Dagmar
01-24-2010, 04:01 PM
:rofl:

Stupid people amuse me.

http://i48.tinypic.com/an292a.png

They seem quite matched Rev.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 04:02 PM
So you can't read?

The BB drama may very well be and head and shoulders above the Cutler drama... but it doesn't compare to the Cutler drama + the personnel FO people drama + the draft drama + the Marshall drama 3x + Coaches leave town

prove to me any of this drama affected anyone except you, other pissed off fans and the media?

they followed this drama with a 6-0 start, sure they slid after that, but does going from a team that everyone who let this drama affect them saying 3-13 to 6-0 start not prove that you are full of bull****?

do you not understand how much stories are overblown in the media, and those same stories are what cause people to scream doom and gloom before the season even starts?

SureShot
01-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Great defense.

How do you reconcile Nolan leaving town in a lateral move and Dean Pees not accepting this job with his fellow NE coordinator?

The list of fellow NE coordinators taking other jobs keeps increasing.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 04:04 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/an292a.png

They seem quite matched Rev.

Exactly the point...

Strange...

because with a significantly worse supporting cast in every single phase of the game (OL, running game, receivers AND defense) and without the "greatest offensive mind in football", he's directly on par with Kyle Orton...

But sure...

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 04:06 PM
prove to me any of this drama affected anyone except you, other pissed off fans and the media?

they followed this drama with a 6-0 start, sure they slid after that, but does going from a team that everyone who let this drama affect them saying 3-13 to 6-0 start not prove that you are full of bull****?

do you not understand how much stories are overblown in the media, and those same stories are what cause people to scream doom and gloom before the season even starts?

Steps for you to take:

1. Acknowledge that it sure as **** wasn't our offense winning those first 6 games.

2. See thread title.

3. Stop being such a ****ing retard and wrap your mind about what this thread is about.

SureShot
01-24-2010, 04:09 PM
steps for you to take:

1. Acknowledge that it sure as **** wasn't our offense winning those first 6 games.

2. See thread title.

3. Stop being such a ****ing retard and wrap your mind about what this thread is about.

lol


26009

2KBack
01-24-2010, 05:15 PM
The little man upstairs was made by IHOP after Shanahan had the team sit in the film room to show them why he was demoting/suspending him.

Lynch was done, and they told him such. Shanahan didn't have a choice Lynch no longer had the speed to play.

Plummer was disaster that season. See the Thanksgiving game in KC, for why he was benched.

Bates defense was failure and show again this season in Tampa were he was also fired.

Wilson while the trade sucked, made sense because they were attempting to get Tuck and 4th rounder.

none of the so called Drama is any different than these scenarios. Especially with so much of what we fight about is rumor and hersay. Take the Bates scenario, he was a lame duck coach. He was given less than a season to try to make his defense work and was replaced by a WORSE defensive coordinator. Jim Bates was a respected DC in the NFL until getting here, where it was more important to be an old buddy of Shanahan than a successful coach.

Al Wilson was a good idea because we may have gotten a mid round pick and a player that becomes good 3 seasons later? How has that logic worked out in regards to the Cutler trade? We got Ayers, Smith and Orton for Cutler, and people won't even allow a full season before ****ting all over those guys. Al Wilson was the heart and soul of the Denver D and a quality teammate. His treatment was appalling. Also disgusting is how Denver was trying to shop an injured all-star in the first place. Denver's D has never been the same.

All this talk about splitting the lockeroom, and that is exactly what happened in the Culter Plummer scenario. Performance aside, while arguable, it is widely believed that Shanahan lost a lot of the players when he benched Plummer. We know he lost Plummer the day he drafted Culter.

Then there is the firing of Jeremy Gibbs, that created a rift between Alex Gibbs and the organization. Which lead directly to Denver losing the best oline coach it's ever had...to make a lteral move to coach the oline in another city.

I found losing a draft pick over salay cap violations kind of dramatic.

This **** isn't new people. It's just that we haven't had to go through such a huge coaching transition in 15 years, so everyone is second guessing everything.

summerdenver
01-24-2010, 05:56 PM
Then there is the firing of Jeremy Gibbs, that created a rift between Alex Gibbs and the organization. Which lead directly to Denver losing the best oline coach it's ever had...to make a lteral move to coach the oline in another city.


Who is Jeremy Gibbs? You mean David Gibbs? His firing may have created a rift but Alex Gibbs actually left Broncos the year before.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 06:37 PM
Great defense.

How do you reconcile Nolan leaving town in a lateral move and Dean Pees not accepting this job with his fellow NE coordinator?

Sorry, that doesn't float. Drama in your mind doesn't count. Only drama that affects play on the field counts.

Did not happen this year, did in the BB scenario in a big way.

Why do I have to reconcile those things, I haven't made a singular statement about either of them.

But if I must. McDaniels didn't want them. Wow...that was tough.

strafen
01-24-2010, 06:46 PM
Dude, you had to start a thread for this dog-****?

The difference was less than 3 points per game, offset by a ***-load more turnovers last year.

We've been over this. Our offense was mediocre last season and our defense was a disaster.That less than 3 points per game is a weak argument.
The whole picture shows we scored 370 points last year, and 326 poinst this year. Even if the difference shows a 3-point differential, all you need is to score one more point than your opponent to win the game...
So 3 points is huge and it is significant...

2KBack
01-24-2010, 06:47 PM
Who is Jeremy Gibbs? You mean David Gibbs? His firing may have created a rift but Alex Gibbs actually left Broncos the year before.

my bad, David Gibbs (got confused with the whole jeremy bates/jim bates, david/alex gibbs, or was it goodmans). If I remember correctly it Alex Gibbs took a "break" from coaching after 2003, his son was fired in 2004, which was the same season that Alex decided he wasn't staying away from the NFL. Instead of continuing with Denver though, he decided to go to the Falcons. That decision is widely considered to be the result if his bad blood with the organization over his son.

Gob
01-24-2010, 06:52 PM
Holy crap, you guys won't concede anything will you? An offensive decline, a unusually turbulent offseason...
He is pitching a perfect game so far I guess. Best 8-8 coach ever!

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 07:02 PM
Holy crap, you guys won't concede anything will you? An offensive decline, a unusually turbulent offseason...
He is pitching a perfect game so far I guess. Best 8-8 coach ever!
The offensive decline is easy to concede, but that's not what's going on here. McDaniels had the same record as Shanahan in his first year, while using personnel that don't necessarily fit the system he wants to run. And people want to run him out of town while still thinking we'd be better off with Shanahan.

LRtagger
01-24-2010, 07:02 PM
Anybody who questions the need for a good QB and good skill players needs to watch today's games.

3 of the 4 teams are where they are because of their offenses.

Hopefully, "The Coach" is taking notes.

I disagree.

The Saints had the best offense in football last year. Remind me of their record again?? They are where they are because they improved their defense.

The Vikes have arguably the best pass rush in the NFL.

The Colts consistently have one of the top offenses in the league, but this year paired with a top defense has made them essentially unstopable.

LRtagger
01-24-2010, 07:06 PM
2008 Broncos offense gained more rushing yards, more passing yards, and scored more.

Just curious...did you factor in ST and defensive scoring? Those scores take away possessions from the offense.

Also, in 2009 we ran more of a ball control offense and tried to pair it up with a solid defense to win games...while in 2008 we played an "air it out" type offense paired with a crappy defense and simply tried to outscore everyone. Factor that in with the fact that we played a much tougher schedule.

Comparing 2008 stats to 2009 stats and coming to a conclusion without considering additional factors doesn't prove anything.

I'm not saying the offense of 2009 was equal or better, but your post proves nothing.

LRtagger
01-24-2010, 07:13 PM
IMO the best way to compare would be Yards per play and points per game. Even still, you can't conclude anything as hard evidence because the schedule was much different.

Anyways, you already showed PPG which was less than 3 difference.

YPA in 2009 was 5.3 while YPA in 2008 was 6.2.

When you consider the fact we had an entirely new system with a new QB running that system, paired with an offensive line not built for that system (which was the staff's fault for not addressing in the offseason), and the difference in schedule, I would say the decline isn't something to panic over.

Let's see how the offense does in 2010 after the staff brings in more players that fit and the carry-over roster has another year under their belts.

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 07:15 PM
So 3 points is huge and it is significant...

Cutler led the '09 Bears to 3 fewer points per game than Orton led the '08 Bears. Is 3 points still huge and significant?

summerdenver
01-24-2010, 07:24 PM
my bad, David Gibbs (got confused with the whole jeremy bates/jim bates, david/alex gibbs, or was it goodmans). If I remember correctly it Alex Gibbs took a "break" from coaching after 2003, his son was fired in 2004, which was the same season that Alex decided he wasn't staying away from the NFL. Instead of continuing with Denver though, he decided to go to the Falcons. That decision is widely considered to be the result if his bad blood with the organization over his son.

Per wikipedia, Alex Gibbs was working with ATL in 2004 when his son was fired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Gibbs

FWIW, Alex Gibbs has the reputation of being a mercenary (nothing wrong with that btw). Thats the reason why he is leaving Houston for seattle (while David Gibbs is still employed with Texans).

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 07:25 PM
Just curious...did you factor in ST and defensive scoring? Those scores take away possessions from the offense.

Also, in 2009 we ran more of a ball control offense and tried to pair it up with a solid defense to win games...while in 2008 we played an "air it out" type offense paired with a crappy defense and simply tried to outscore everyone. Factor that in with the fact that we played a much tougher schedule.

Comparing 2008 stats to 2009 stats and coming to a conclusion without considering additional factors doesn't prove anything.

I'm not saying the offense of 2009 was equal or better, but your post proves nothing.

It proves exactly what it claims to prove, which is nothing. The problem with posting statistics on this forum evidently is that nobody knows how to read them.

Statistics illustrate. Kind of like when Dagmar was given the proposition of the book "Where the Wild Things Are" when she was a teenager. Being functionally illiterate, she relied on the pictures to understand a little of what the book was about. Statistics are "pictures" of information that help you understand bits of the story.

What those simple, easy to understand pictures show of the difference between the 08 and 09 Broncos is that the offense earned more on the field in 2009. You can concoct whatever anecdotal endorphin that you want to to support your emotional appeal, but regardless of you noisy clamoring for all debate to cease because you and your symbiotes are unsettled by it, the facts are what they are.

2KBack
01-24-2010, 07:33 PM
Per wikipedia, Alex Gibbs was working with ATL in 2004 when his son was fired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Gibbs

FWIW, Alex Gibbs has the reputation of being a mercenary (nothing wrong with that btw). Thats the reason why he is leaving Houston for seattle (while David Gibbs is still employed with Texans).

Hmmm, I remember there being some correlation, but I can't back that up. It doesn't effect my argument that the team has had it's fair share of drama far before this past season or so. Especially when you consider that David Gibbs was fired essentially for Insubordination (supposedly stemming from the Falcons game where Champ wasn't following peerless all game). Imagine that, a headcoach demanding that his suggestions for the defense be followed.

oubronco
01-24-2010, 07:43 PM
The offensive decline is easy to concede, but that's not what's going on here. McDaniels had the same record as Shanahan in his first year, while using personnel that don't necessarily fit the system he wants to run. And people want to run him out of town while still thinking we'd be better off with Shanahan.

does anyone have "their" personel as a first time coach of a team he has not been apart of

Dedhed
01-24-2010, 08:24 PM
does anyone have "their" personel as a first time coach of a team he has not been apart of

No

Ray Finkle
01-24-2010, 08:52 PM
Hmmm, I remember there being some correlation, but I can't back that up. It doesn't effect my argument that the team has had it's fair share of drama far before this past season or so. Especially when you consider that David Gibbs was fired essentially for Insubordination (supposedly stemming from the Falcons game where Champ wasn't following peerless all game). Imagine that, a headcoach demanding that his suggestions for the defense be followed.

I had heard rumors he was leaking signals to his pops during that game that lead to the firing....either way, he and Willie Middlebrooks are both now gone.

Kaylore
01-24-2010, 10:18 PM
A field goal a game difference but our turnovers went way down. And turnovers more directly contribute to wins.

We played four playoffs teams in '08 and most of the teams we played were in the teens and below in defensive quality.

In '09 we played 9 playoff teams, four coming off a bye week and some of the best defenses in football.

And we only went down a field goal a game and turnover differential was turned on it's head.

Now I'm not saying our offense this last year is going to cut it, and if doesn't improve we won't ever be anything more than an 8 win team. However if you're going to make broad generalizations but just looking at arbitrary stats you better damn well put them into context.

Last years' team > '08 team. There's no two ways about it.

Dagmar
01-24-2010, 10:35 PM
A field goal a game difference but our turnovers went way down. And turnovers more directly contribute to wins.

We played four playoffs teams in '08 and most of the teams we played were in the teens and below in defensive quality.

In '09 we played 9 playoff teams, four coming off a bye week and some of the best defenses in football.

And we only went down a field goal a game and turnover differential was turned on it's head.

Now I'm not saying our offense this last year is going to cut it, and if doesn't improve we won't ever be anything more than an 8 win team. However if you're going to make broad generalizations but just looking at arbitrary stats you better damn well put them into context.

Last years' team > '08 team. There's no two ways about it.

I wish you'd post more. No emotion or hate, just facts.

epicSocialism4tw
01-24-2010, 10:37 PM
A field goal a game difference but our turnovers went way down. And turnovers more directly contribute to wins.

We played four playoffs teams in '08 and most of the teams we played were in the teens and below in defensive quality.

In '09 we played 9 playoff teams, four coming off a bye week and some of the best defenses in football.

And we only went down a field goal a game and turnover differential was turned on it's head.

Now I'm not saying our offense this last year is going to cut it, and if doesn't improve we won't ever be anything more than an 8 win team. However if you're going to make broad generalizations but just looking at arbitrary stats you better damn well put them into context.

Last years' team > '08 team. There's no two ways about it.

That's a matter of opinion. There are several ways about it. They were both 8-8 with a strong opportunity at making the playoffs down the stretch. Both teams suffered monumental collapses. The 2008 version losing its last 3 games to a 12-4 Carolina team, a 7-9 Buffalo team, and an AFC West-winning Chargers team. The 2009 version lost 8 of their last 10 games including losses in the last three weeks to the doormat Raiders and a blowout, playoff hope-ending loss to the sorry Chiefs.

Context isnt a good thing for this year's team either.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 10:55 PM
A field goal a game difference but our turnovers went way down. And turnovers more directly contribute to wins.

We played four playoffs teams in '08 and most of the teams we played were in the teens and below in defensive quality.

In '09 we played 9 playoff teams, four coming off a bye week and some of the best defenses in football.

And we only went down a field goal a game and turnover differential was turned on it's head.

Now I'm not saying our offense this last year is going to cut it, and if doesn't improve we won't ever be anything more than an 8 win team. However if you're going to make broad generalizations but just looking at arbitrary stats you better damn well put them into context.

Precisely. We need to put it in context.

We had 30 offensive turnovers in 2008, and 23 in 2009. That isn't exactly "on it's head" as you worded it.

Also the 3 ppg isn't quite as indicative. In 2008, we scored 40 offensive touchdowns (42 total, minus 2 defensive touchdowns), and we complained about our ability in the redzone all offense.

In 2009, we scored 30 offensive touchdowns (34 total, minus 2 defensive and 2 kick returns).

That's a 25% decline in your bread and butter of scoring. Not to mention the significant declines in other substantially important stats like 3rd down conversion % (#2 in the NFL with 48%, to bottom dwelling with the dregs at #22 in the NFL with 36%), and the oft misunderstood and wrongly maligned yardage (396 ypg to 341).

Also, as for the schedule, our out of division opponents were only 4 wins more challenging than the 2008 schedule. The strength of schedule is skewed because the rest of our division didn't have any issue winning more games (aside from oakland who kept par) despite the perilous schedule!

Last years' team > '08 team. There's no two ways about it.

This is a statement that I can agree with, but there are several operative parts that need to be discussed.

TEAM. Certainly not the offense.

2nd, there's a good chance that the key reason "last year's team > 08 team" just skipped town.

Also, 2008's team had more youth to develop AND every team SHOULD be improving from year to year.

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 10:59 PM
2nd, there's a good chance that the key reason "last year's team > 08 team" just skipped town.

Also, 2008's team had more youth to develop AND every team SHOULD be improving from year to year.

nolan was running mcdaniels defensive system. mcdaniels said so today when he said this defense will be in its second year of the system. nolan is a really good DC but mcdaniels gets credit for it too.

teh 2009 team is older but in the places they are older (secondary specifically) they have really good young depth, especially if alphonso isnt a bust.

strafen
01-24-2010, 11:04 PM
nolan was running mcdaniels defensive system. mcdaniels said so today when he said this defense will be in its second year of the system. nolan is a really good DC but mcdaniels gets credit for it too.

teh 2009 team is older but in the places they are older (secondary specifically) they have really good young depth, especially if alphonso isnt a bust.You need to quit smoking crack and posting at the same time!

tsiguy96
01-24-2010, 11:05 PM
You need to quit smoking crack and posting at the same time!

youre right, mcdaniels lied, we wont be running the exact same defense this year. mcdaniels brought nolan in because hes capable of running the defense he wanted, just like shanahan has done for so many years.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 11:08 PM
nolan was running mcdaniels defensive system. mcdaniels said so today when he said this defense will be in its second year of the system. nolan is a really good DC but mcdaniels gets credit for it too.

teh 2009 team is older but in the places they are older (secondary specifically) they have really good young depth, especially if alphonso isnt a bust.

Oh okay. It makes perfect sense now that he was running it himself, and he was complaining about himself run blitzing.

DivineLegion
01-24-2010, 11:09 PM
Yes we lose one offensive starter and transition into a new scheme. It would be absurd if we had better offensive statistics. We were not a piss poor offensive team so to match that production from previous seasons would be quite an accomplishment. We did get close however and there is a lot to look forward to in the future. If you cant see this your just a blind hater.

Popps
01-24-2010, 11:12 PM
That less than 3 points per game is a weak argument.
The whole picture shows we scored 370 points last year, and 326 poinst this year. Even if the difference shows a 3-point differential, all you need is to score one more point than your opponent to win the game...
So 3 points is huge and it is significant...

Yea... and we've already proven that the team 08 team scored less than the 09 team after week 3 of last season. So, a few good weeks... then mediocre.

16th in scoring.

Worst defense on the planet.

You guys can keep spinning it until the end of time. But, no one will remember the 08 season as anything other than an utter failure that cost Mike Shanahan his job.

strafen
01-24-2010, 11:21 PM
Yea... and we've already proven that the team 08 team scored less than the 09 team after week 3 of last season. So, a few good weeks... then mediocre.

16th in scoring.

Worst defense on the planet.

You guys can keep spinning it until the end of time. But, no one will remember the 08 season as anything other than an utter failure that cost Mike Shanahan his job.Damn right.
Nobody will remember the 08 season, but I can tell you the epic collapse of the 09 season will not soon be forgotten!

DivineLegion
01-24-2010, 11:26 PM
Thats good Dragster you hold on to those memories and weep while we look to the future knowing there is a bright future on the horizon.

TheReverend
01-24-2010, 11:35 PM
Yea... and we've already proven that the team 08 team scored less than the 09 team after week 3 of last season. So, a few good weeks... then mediocre.

16th in scoring.

Worst defense on the planet.

You guys can keep spinning it until the end of time. But, no one will remember the 08 season as anything other than an utter failure that cost Mike Shanahan his job.

Wait... let me get this straight...

In the same post, you spin something to crowbar it to your POV, and then two sentences later, point the finger at opposing opinions for spinning?

I don't believe you posted that with a straight face.

LRtagger
01-25-2010, 12:07 AM
It proves exactly what it claims to prove, which is nothing. The problem with posting statistics on this forum evidently is that nobody knows how to read them.

Statistics illustrate. Kind of like when Dagmar was given the proposition of the book "Where the Wild Things Are" when she was a teenager. Being functionally illiterate, she relied on the pictures to understand a little of what the book was about. Statistics are "pictures" of information that help you understand bits of the story.

What those simple, easy to understand pictures show of the difference between the 08 and 09 Broncos is that the offense earned more on the field in 2009. You can concoct whatever anecdotal endorphin that you want to to support your emotional appeal, but regardless of you noisy clamoring for all debate to cease because you and your symbiotes are unsettled by it, the facts are what they are.

By all means, please enlighten us on how to read stats. Tell me how the 2009 Broncos regressed terribly on offense because the stats say so...but tell me how Jay Cutler has not regressed as a player from 2008 to 2009 because he's in a new offense and his line sucks and his receivers suck.

The problem with using some information to understand "bits" of a story, is that you don't understand the WHOLE story. It happens in almost every thread here. People take bits and pieces of a story and manipulate them to portray a player or coach in a positive or negative light. McDaniels, Nolan, Marshall, Cutler, Royal, Scheffler, etc etc etc. There are countless stat threads and all of them pointless.

I'm not concocting anything to satisfy myself. On paper, the 2008 offense put up better numbers than the 2009 offense. OK. But all factors considered, the future isnt as bleak as some would like those stats to lead us to believe. The sky isnt falling, the offense isnt going to regress even further in 2010 and score 15 ppg.

Regardless of what the expectations were of McDaniels (good or bad), not many coaches would be more successful in one year running a power running game and a spread offense with ZBS and west coast personel. Transition takes time. If the offense next year doesn't equal or surpass the 2008 offense, then I can justify concern. Otherwise, I don't understand the purpose of this thread other than to stir up another catfight.

LRtagger
01-25-2010, 12:16 AM
The 2009 version lost 8 of their last 10 games including losses in the last three weeks to the doormat Raiders and a blowout, playoff hope-ending loss to the sorry Chiefs.

Context isnt a good thing for this year's team either.

If we hadn't been blown out by the Chiefs or Raiders last year we would have won the division..our juggernaut offense averaged less than 15ppg in those two losses. :kiddingme

People only seem to remember the 3 game collapse, but there were some other embarrassing losses that year that would have won us the division.

Hulamau
01-25-2010, 12:41 AM
This is just a surface evaluation based on total offense numbers, but the offense clearly stumbled from where they were in 2008 as far as statistics show. Mediator probably has a more extensive analysis that reveals more detail about specific things that have changed.


2008
23.1 ppg
6333 total yards
4471 passing yards 25td/18int
1862 rushing yards with 15td
4.8 yards per carry

2009
20.4 ppg
5463 total yards
3627 passing yards 21td/13int
1836 rushing yards with 9td
4.2 yards per carry

There is a clear difference between the two offenses. Almost 1000 yards and 10 TD's. 10 TD's is 60 points.

2008 Broncos offense gained more rushing yards, more passing yards, and scored more.

Here's the one stat your looking for
2008
Starting Oline in tact and playing a consistent scheme for which it was designed for full 16 games.

2009
Starting o-line together for 6-0 start, thereafter Harris and Hamilton out. Their replacements were less capable of running the Zone Blocking system and both Polumbus and Weigman were a disaster in the power formation pass protection schemes.

Thus nullifying the running game and giving Kyle a good 1 second or more LESS time to throw and significantly more pressure. Without opposing teams having to bring a safety down to stop our run, it greatly limited Orton's options to throw deeper and keep D's honest.

Case closed ... but for those who need a little convincing ....

P.S.
A look at the two QBs


2008 Cutler
PC PA Pct Yds YPC TD INT Lg Rate
384 616 62.3 4526 7.3 25 18 93 86.0

2009 Orton
PC PA Pct Yds YPC TD INT Lg Rate
336 541 62.1 3802 7.03 21 12 87 86.8

You give Orton 75 more attempts and he'd have had the same number of TDs..

Average yards passed per TD

2008 Cutler = 181.04 ... 2009 Orton =181.04 !!!


Orton actually was easily as good QB here in his first year and in all new system with new teammates all around than Jay his last year here.

In fact, you can argue Kyle was better even in his first year in an all new environment when considering the backbreaking effect of the extra 6 mostly redzone Ints Cutler threw.

Orton was also out 3/4 of a total game (1/2 at Washington and 1.4 against San Diego) and hobbled for several more. Cutler played all 16 games and was healthy the whole season. ... big difference.

Lets see how Orton does after a few year in the system . After all, in 2008 Cutler was in year 3 with the same system and coaches with the same line and WR for the most part.

Plus, Orton was sacked 14 times more in 09 than Cutler was in 08 ... again. Some of those reflected Cutlers better mobility but most were from the crap protection Kyle got in the last half of the season.

Finally Orton and 2009 offense had a significantly tougher schedule than the 2008 Cutler gang.

LRtagger
01-25-2010, 07:32 AM
In order to bypass the schedule question, I thought it might be reasonable to compare offensive stats of 2008 vs 2009 against the same opponents and omit the stats from the games where the schedule differed.

2008 SCORES
OAK: 41, 10
SD: 39, 21
KC: 19, 24
NE: 7
CLE: 34

PPG: 24.38

2009 SCORES
OAK: 23, 19
SD: 34, 3
KC: 44, 24
NE: 20
CLE: 27

PPG: 24.24

Other stats from those 8 games

2008
3362 Total Yards
420 Yards per Game
2499 Passing yards (312 per); 14 TDs 10 INTs
953 Rushing Yards (119 per)
9 TDs
A ratio of over 2.6:1 passing yards to rushing yards

2009
3106 Total Yards
388 Yards per Game
1977 Passing Yards (247 per); 10 TDs 6 INTs
1129 Rushing Yards (141 per)
7 TDs
A ratio of 1.75:1 passing yards to rushing yards


2008 record 4-4

2009 record 5-3


Just for comparison's sake.

WolfpackGuy
01-25-2010, 07:57 AM
Stats or no stats, you could just tell from watching the games the 09 offense was worse than in 08.

jhns
01-25-2010, 08:06 AM
LOL

I love the guys that actually think they are being smart as they claim this years offense was even close to last years. It is like these guys don't watch the games as they claim they are these great fans....

Last years offense was better in every statistic. Last years offense was far younger. Last years team had far more injuries. Last years field goal kicker had a worse accuracy. Last years defense was far worse as well as the special teams. We finished with the same record as this years team. This years team had a top 10 defense and a much improved special teams. How exactly did that happen with the same offense? Is McDaniels that bad of a coach? How is that a good defense of him? Everything improved but he had the same result?

Cito Pelon
01-25-2010, 09:11 AM
Certainly there was a dropoff, but I don't think it's all that worrisome. No doubt as I read through this thread I'll see the usual suspects claim 2009's dropoff is an indicator that a gutless drunk owner, a puppet GM/pizza gofer, and a snot-nosed li'l kid HC will RUN THIS FRANCHISE INTO THE GROUND!!!!!!

Cito Pelon
01-25-2010, 09:38 AM
IMO the best way to compare would be Yards per play and points per game. Even still, you can't conclude anything as hard evidence because the schedule was much different.

Anyways, you already showed PPG which was less than 3 difference.

YPA in 2009 was 5.3 while YPA in 2008 was 6.2.

When you consider the fact we had an entirely new system with a new QB running that system, paired with an offensive line not built for that system (which was the staff's fault for not addressing in the offseason), and the difference in schedule, I would say the decline isn't something to panic over.

Let's see how the offense does in 2010 after the staff brings in more players that fit and the carry-over roster has another year under their belts.

That's a reasonable take on the situation.

DrFate
01-25-2010, 09:44 AM
IT WAS HIS FIRST YEAR AS HEAD COACH FOR ****S SAKE

Worked out pretty well for the Jets new head man. And the Colts new head man.

Waving your hands and saying 'it was his first year' isn't a *reason*. There are concrete, contemporary examples which counter this argument.

Inkana7
01-25-2010, 09:54 AM
Wow, I've never seen these numbers before. Thanks for those groundbreaking new statistics.

strafen
01-25-2010, 10:00 AM
Thats good Dragster you hold on to those memories and weep while we look to the future knowing there is a bright future on the horizon.

Explain to me how should I be looking at a bright horizon.
Please sell me on the crap McDaniels is doing right now.
Bright future! ROFL!
McDaniels has made more noise than progress going into the 2010 season.
The guy speaks a nice line, but his actions on the field and during the off-season speaks volume on what we should be expecting this season.
The guy has dismantled this team; players are unhappy and hate playing for him, coaches are unhappy and leaving without hesitation.

When have you recalled the Denver Broncos organizatiob gone thru so much crap in just barely over a year?

Yup, keep thinking bright future.
Right this moment, we should be 1 year ahead in the McDaniels project, but we are NOT.
We're not better off right now than we were last year at the same time.
A lot of uncertainty surrounding the Denver Broncos

2KBack
01-25-2010, 10:01 AM
Worked out pretty well for the Jets new head man. And the Colts new head man.

Waving your hands and saying 'it was his first year' isn't a *reason*. There are concrete, contemporary examples which counter this argument.

Actually the Jets had the exact same record last year, and had a significant regression in offense, while improving on defense. The difference is the Jets got hot/lucky at the right time this year.

strafen
01-25-2010, 10:04 AM
LOL

I love the guys that actually think they are being smart as they claim this years offense was even close to last years. It is like these guys don't watch the games as they claim they are these great fans....

Last years offense was better in every statistic. Last years offense was far younger. Last years team had far more injuries. Last years field goal kicker had a worse accuracy. Last years defense was far worse as well as the special teams. We finished with the same record as this years team. This years team had a top 10 defense and a much improved special teams. How exactly did that happen with the same offense? Is McDaniels that bad of a coach? How is that a good defense of him? Everything improved but he had the same result?

I think what poops is trying to sell here is that the diffrence of <3 points per-game trumps any statitistic and common sense out there.
The moron is convinced that when he started a thread to point out there was no decline on our 2009 offense from the 2009 that he had made his point LOL ROFL!
He still think he's right. :wave:

strafen
01-25-2010, 10:07 AM
In order to bypass the schedule question, I thought it might be reasonable to compare offensive stats of 2008 vs 2009 against the same opponents and omit the stats from the games where the schedule differed.

2008 SCORES
OAK: 41, 10
SD: 39, 21
KC: 19, 24
NE: 7
CLE: 34

PPG: 24.38

2009 SCORES
OAK: 23, 19
SD: 34, 3
KC: 44, 24
NE: 20
CLE: 27

PPG: 24.24

Other stats from those 8 games

2008
3362 Total Yards
420 Yards per Game
2499 Passing yards (312 per); 14 TDs 10 INTs
953 Rushing Yards (119 per)
9 TDs
A ratio of over 2.6:1 passing yards to rushing yards

2009
3106 Total Yards
388 Yards per Game
1977 Passing Yards (247 per); 10 TDs 6 INTs
1129 Rushing Yards (141 per)
7 TDs
A ratio of 1.75:1 passing yards to rushing yards


2008 record 4-4

2009 record 5-3


Just for comparison's sake.Desperate situations calls for desperate actions.
Your comparisons are so incredible worthless is not even funny.
I need to stop right now because yopu're not going to like what I really want to say to you.
Freakin' unbelievable the stupidity people come up with...

LRtagger
01-25-2010, 11:54 AM
Desperate situations calls for desperate actions.
Your comparisons are so incredible worthless is not even funny.
I need to stop right now because yopu're not going to like what I really want to say to you.
Freakin' unbelievable the stupidity people come up with...


My post was used to display the stupidity from the original stats in the OP and to show how worthless this thread is. But I applaud you for singling out only the post that conflicts with your agenda. :welcome:

If stats told the whole story then we should all be happy we dumped Cutler since, you know, the stats show that he has regressed as a QB in 2009. Clearly he is going to keep regressing until he is throwin 40 INTs and 0 TDs every season. Since the stats are what they are and no additional factors need be considered.

epicSocialism4tw
01-25-2010, 02:35 PM
The offense was worse this year than it was last year.

Pretty simple idea, really, and its evidenced quantitatively by statistics. Not to mention what we saw on the field, which was an offense that could not get the ball down field, could not get the ball to several talented players including Eddie Royal, and could not move the ball in short yardage.

The offense also regressed in that pass blocking was considerably worse and we saw regression in Clady, Kuper, and Harris. Not to mention that Ben Hamilton was completely ineffective in this system to the point that he was a liability.

This offense did not produce big plays from the run game.

Unless Marshall turned it into a big play with YAC, this offense did not produce big plays from the passing game.

It was the first year of a new system, so some of this is to be expected to some degree, but the dropoff from Shanahan's offense is fact.

Atwater His Ass
01-25-2010, 03:22 PM
The offense was worse this year than it was last year.

Pretty simple idea, really, and its evidenced quantitatively by statistics. Not to mention what we saw on the field, which was an offense that could not get the ball down field, could not get the ball to several talented players including Eddie Royal, and could not move the ball in short yardage.

The offense also regressed in that pass blocking was considerably worse and we saw regression in Clady, Kuper, and Harris. Not to mention that Ben Hamilton was completely ineffective in this system to the point that he was a liability.

This offense did not produce big plays from the run game.

Unless Marshall turned it into a big play with YAC, this offense did not produce big plays from the passing game.

It was the first year of a new system, so some of this is to be acception to some degree, but the dropoff from Shanahan's offense is fact.

The dropoff is unacceptable. We hired an offensive "genius". We had all the tools on the offensive side of the ball, with the expection of RB, which McD spent a blue chip draft pick on.

McD shat the bed with the offense. If he's such an offensive guru, I'm dumbfounded why he couldn't mold his ideals with the talent he had avaiable to build on what Shanahan started in 2008.

Instead he has and is in the process of gutting this team.

My biggest fear is 2 years from now if McD gets fired, we'll be looking back at this and see a complete disaster with a team with zero identity and all of its best playmakers (Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Dumervile, etc.) shipped out of town.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 03:26 PM
Actually the Jets had the exact same record last year, and had a significant regression in offense, while improving on defense. The difference is the Jets got hot/lucky at the right time this year.

The Jets were also a team functioning with a rookie QB and a defensive minded coach. No one was/is expecting them to put up points in gobs. How does that apply to Denver?

LRtagger
01-25-2010, 03:37 PM
The offense was worse this year than it was last year.

Pretty simple idea, really, and its evidenced quantitatively by statistics. Not to mention what we saw on the field, which was an offense that could not get the ball down field, could not get the ball to several talented players including Eddie Royal, and could not move the ball in short yardage.

The offense also regressed in that pass blocking was considerably worse and we saw regression in Clady, Kuper, and Harris. Not to mention that Ben Hamilton was completely ineffective in this system to the point that he was a liability.

This offense did not produce big plays from the run game.

Unless Marshall turned it into a big play with YAC, this offense did not produce big plays from the passing game.

It was the first year of a new system, so some of this is to be expected to some degree, but the dropoff from Shanahan's offense is fact.

I can agree with this post.

The assumption is that if everything would have remained in tact from 2008, that the 2009 offense would have put up better numbers. But that is what we do not know to be a fact. Which is why comparing the stats and saying McDaniels and Orton ruined the team is illogical.

People can be mad that Cutler is gone or that Royal didn't get more opportunities, etc. But IMO you need a sample size of more than one to determine a trend. I can't say that this offense is going to continue to get worse or will consistently be bad under McDaniels. That's assumption, not fact.

BroncoMan4ever
01-25-2010, 03:37 PM
i hate that crap of comparin the 2 different poffensive outputs. does nobody who bitches about McDaniels remember the 2008 offense. it was streaky. One week good for 35 points and a **** load of yardage, the next week struggling to get to 10 points and mediocre yardage. this past seasons offense while not very impressive was steady. they remained consistent in the scoring output for most of the year.

the 2008 offense was the Tatum Bell of offenses. one big output one week and then a few outputs of mediocrity which at the end of the season statistically looks good and like the team averaged a lot of points every game, but if you watched closesly you see the stats don't translate to what the offense actually looked like.

BroncoMan4ever
01-25-2010, 03:47 PM
The dropoff is unacceptable. We hired an offensive "genius". We had all the tools on the offensive side of the ball, with the expection of RB, which McD spent a blue chip draft pick on.

McD shat the bed with the offense. If he's such an offensive guru, I'm dumbfounded why he couldn't mold his ideals with the talent he had avaiable to build on what Shanahan started in 2008.

Instead he has and is in the process of gutting this team.

My biggest fear is 2 years from now if McD gets fired, we'll be looking back at this and see a complete disaster with a team with zero identity and all of its best playmakers (Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Dumervile, etc.) shipped out of town.

that is so stupid. Mike's offense was far from an offensive juggernaut. 2.7 points a game difference between 08 and 09.

and what was so incredible about the offense that Mike left behind?

Clady, he was still there and still used. Marshall, still there and still used, Royal was overlooked in this offense just like Cutler overlooked him in the middle portion of 08. aside from those 3 what was so special that it is some disaster that McDaniels is changing it?

Cutler, give me a break, once he was gone and everyone truly looked at him and took the orange and blue blinders off, we all realized he was nothing more than Jeff George 2.0 and it was an addition by subtraction cutting him loose.

Scheff? so many bitch that McDaniels didnt use him, but aside from the occasional game, neither did Shanahan.

Royal? has no one heard of a sophomore slump? also the fact that he was somewhat hindered by inury this season led to a low output from him

the line, everyone bitches about changing the scheme. does nobody realize that since 98, no team that runs the ZBS has won a super bowl? he has 3 potential stars on that line and they all remained in place until the end of the season or until injury ended their season. Hamilton and Weigman were the weak links.

we had all the tools? if we had all the tools the 08 offense would have put up more than 23 a game, and Mike would still be in Denver.

my biggest problem is that 2 years from now, when McDaniels has this team really competing for a super bowl berth all you haters will jump back onto the bandwagon and chant on about how you always knew it would work out and that McDaniels is a great coach.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 04:03 PM
i hate that crap of comparin the 2 different poffensive outputs. does nobody who b****es about McDaniels remember the 2008 offense. it was streaky. One week good for 35 points and a **** load of yardage, the next week struggling to get to 10 points and mediocre yardage. this past seasons offense while not very impressive was steady. they remained consistent in the scoring output for most of the year.

the 2008 offense was the Tatum Bell of offenses. one big output one week and then a few outputs of mediocrity which at the end of the season statistically looks good and like the team averaged a lot of points every game, but if you watched closesly you see the stats don't translate to what the offense actually looked like.

Yup. A team that ranges from scoring 3-44 points given the week is the model of consistency.

1 Sep 13 DEN 12 @ CIN 7 Final 62,831 Carson Palmer
247 Yds (CIN) Cedric Benson
76 Yds (CIN) Chad Ochocinco
89 Yds (CIN)
2 Sep 20 CLE 6 @ DEN 27 Final 73,931 Kyle Orton
263 Yds (DEN) Correll Buckhalter
76 Yds (DEN) Braylon Edwards
92 Yds (CLE)
3 Sep 27 DEN 23 @ OAK 3 Final 45,602 Kyle Orton
157 Yds (DEN) Correll Buckhalter
108 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
67 Yds (DEN)
4 Oct 04 DAL 10 @ DEN 17 Final 76,440 Tony Romo
255 Yds (DAL) Knowshon Moreno
65 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
91 Yds (DEN)
5 Oct 11 NE 17 @ DEN 20 Final 76,011 Kyle Orton
330 Yds (DEN) Knowshon Moreno
88 Yds (DEN) Eddie Royal
90 Yds (DEN)
6 Oct 19 DEN 34 @ SD 23 Final 68,615 Philip Rivers
274 Yds (SD) LaDainian Tomlinson
70 Yds (SD) Tony Scheffler
101 Yds (DEN)
7 Bye
8 Nov 01 DEN 7 @ BAL 30 Final 71,132 Joe Flacco
175 Yds (BAL) Ray Rice
84 Yds (BAL) Kelley Washington
58 Yds (BAL)
9 Nov 09 PIT 28 @ DEN 10 Final 76,716 Ben Roethlisberger
233 Yds (PIT) Rashard Mendenhall
155 Yds (PIT) Brandon Marshall
112 Yds (DEN)
10 Nov 15 DEN 17 @ WAS 27 Final 85,247 Kyle Orton
193 Yds (DEN) Ladell Betts
114 Yds (WAS) Brandon Marshall
134 Yds (DEN)
11 Nov 22 SD 32 @ DEN 3 Final 74,707 Kyle Orton
171 Yds (DEN) Knowshon Moreno
80 Yds (DEN) Vincent Jackson
56 Yds (SD)
12 Nov 26 NYG 6 @ DEN 26 Final 74,896 Kyle Orton
245 Yds (DEN) Knowshon Moreno
88 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
86 Yds (DEN)
13 Dec 06 DEN 44 @ KC 13 Final 68,912 Kyle Orton
180 Yds (DEN) Correll Buckhalter
113 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
94 Yds (DEN)
14 Dec 13 DEN 16 @ IND 28 Final 67,248 Kyle Orton
277 Yds (DEN) Joseph Addai
67 Yds (IND) Brandon Marshall
200 Yds (DEN)
15 Dec 20 OAK 20 @ DEN 19 Final 74,502 Kyle Orton
278 Yds (DEN) Michael Bush
133 Yds (OAK) Brandon Marshall
73 Yds (DEN)
16 Dec 27 DEN 27 @ PHI 30 Final 69,144 Donovan McNabb
322 Yds (PHI) Correll Buckhalter
42 Yds (DEN) Brent Celek
121 Yds (PHI)
17 Jan 03 KC 44 @ DEN 24 Final 73,725 Kyle Orton
431 Yds (DEN) Jamaal Charles
259 Yds (KC) Jabar Gaffney
213 Yds (DEN)

BroncoMan4ever
01-25-2010, 04:18 PM
Yup. A team that ranges from scoring 3-44 points given the week is the model of consistency.

1 Sep 13 DEN 12 @ CIN 7 Final 62,831 Carson Palmer
247 Yds (CIN) Cedric Benson
76 Yds (CIN) Chad Ochocinco
89 Yds (CIN)
2 Sep 20 CLE 6 @ DEN 27 Final 73,931 Kyle Orton
263 Yds (DEN) Correll Buckhalter
76 Yds (DEN) Braylon Edwards
92 Yds (CLE)
3 Sep 27 DEN 23 @ OAK 3 Final 45,602 Kyle Orton
157 Yds (DEN) Correll Buckhalter
108 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
67 Yds (DEN)
4 Oct 04 DAL 10 @ DEN 17 Final 76,440 Tony Romo
255 Yds (DAL) Knowshon Moreno
65 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
91 Yds (DEN)
5 Oct 11 NE 17 @ DEN 20 Final 76,011 Kyle Orton
330 Yds (DEN) Knowshon Moreno
88 Yds (DEN) Eddie Royal
90 Yds (DEN)
6 Oct 19 DEN 34 @ SD 23 Final 68,615 Philip Rivers
274 Yds (SD) LaDainian Tomlinson
70 Yds (SD) Tony Scheffler
101 Yds (DEN)
7 Bye
8 Nov 01 DEN 7 @ BAL 30 Final 71,132 Joe Flacco
175 Yds (BAL) Ray Rice
84 Yds (BAL) Kelley Washington
58 Yds (BAL)
9 Nov 09 PIT 28 @ DEN 10 Final 76,716 Ben Roethlisberger
233 Yds (PIT) Rashard Mendenhall
155 Yds (PIT) Brandon Marshall
112 Yds (DEN)
10 Nov 15 DEN 17 @ WAS 27 Final 85,247 Kyle Orton
193 Yds (DEN) Ladell Betts
114 Yds (WAS) Brandon Marshall
134 Yds (DEN)
11 Nov 22 SD 32 @ DEN 3 Final 74,707 Kyle Orton
171 Yds (DEN) Knowshon Moreno
80 Yds (DEN) Vincent Jackson
56 Yds (SD)
12 Nov 26 NYG 6 @ DEN 26 Final 74,896 Kyle Orton
245 Yds (DEN) Knowshon Moreno
88 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
86 Yds (DEN)
13 Dec 06 DEN 44 @ KC 13 Final 68,912 Kyle Orton
180 Yds (DEN) Correll Buckhalter
113 Yds (DEN) Brandon Marshall
94 Yds (DEN)
14 Dec 13 DEN 16 @ IND 28 Final 67,248 Kyle Orton
277 Yds (DEN) Joseph Addai
67 Yds (IND) Brandon Marshall
200 Yds (DEN)
15 Dec 20 OAK 20 @ DEN 19 Final 74,502 Kyle Orton
278 Yds (DEN) Michael Bush
133 Yds (OAK) Brandon Marshall
73 Yds (DEN)
16 Dec 27 DEN 27 @ PHI 30 Final 69,144 Donovan McNabb
322 Yds (PHI) Correll Buckhalter
42 Yds (DEN) Brent Celek
121 Yds (PHI)
17 Jan 03 KC 44 @ DEN 24 Final 73,725 Kyle Orton
431 Yds (DEN) Jamaal Charles
259 Yds (KC) Jabar Gaffney
213 Yds (DEN)

12, 27, 23, 17, 20, 34, 7, 10, 17, 3, 26, 44, 16, 19, 27, 24

there were 4 games where there was as much as a 10 point difference from what the team averaged every game.

2008

41, 39, 34, 19, 16, 17, 7, 17, 34, 24, 10, 34, 24, 10, 23, 21

8 games that there was at least a 10 point difference from what the average said they scored every game.


like i said, the 08 offense on paper can be seen as so much better by people who want to bitch about McDaniels, but it was hugely inconsistent, while the 09 offense doesn't seem as good it is much more consistent.

Cito Pelon
01-25-2010, 04:25 PM
Precisely. We need to put it in context.

We had 30 offensive turnovers in 2008, and 23 in 2009. That isn't exactly "on it's head" as you worded it.

Also the 3 ppg isn't quite as indicative. In 2008, we scored 40 offensive touchdowns (42 total, minus 2 defensive touchdowns), and we complained about our ability in the redzone all offense.

In 2009, we scored 30 offensive touchdowns (34 total, minus 2 defensive and 2 kick returns).

That's a 25% decline in your bread and butter of scoring. Not to mention the significant declines in other substantially important stats like 3rd down conversion % (#2 in the NFL with 48%, to bottom dwelling with the dregs at #22 in the NFL with 36%), and the oft misunderstood and wrongly maligned yardage (396 ypg to 341).

Also, as for the schedule, our out of division opponents were only 4 wins more challenging than the 2008 schedule. The strength of schedule is skewed because the rest of our division didn't have any issue winning more games (aside from oakland who kept par) despite the perilous schedule!



This is a statement that I can agree with, but there are several operative parts that need to be discussed.

TEAM. Certainly not the offense.

2nd, there's a good chance that the key reason "last year's team > 08 team" just skipped town.

Also, 2008's team had more youth to develop AND every team SHOULD be improving from year to year.

I disagree with the bolded, but that above it I don't have too much problem with.

You said a few days ago we'll know for sure this time next year, and I agree with that also.

epicSocialism4tw
01-25-2010, 05:07 PM
One of the most impressive things about Shanahan was his ability to put young offensive players in a position to succeed. He did it with umpteen different running backs, and most impressively, he did it with Ryan Clady.

Clady under Shanahan was the best tackle in the NFL...as a rookie.

Hopefully McD will figure out how to make that happen again.

Atwater His Ass
01-25-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't think mcd is stupid. He has to be more than capable of evaluating a group of players and figuring how best to use them.

The fact that he instead seems to be arbitraly following his system, damn the torpedos full speed ahead, it what really has me so concerend.

He's more interested in proving to people his system is superior, that he's losing focus of the bigger picture and how to make the Denver Broncos as competitive as possible.

steeledude
01-25-2010, 05:21 PM
Dude, you had to start a thread for this dog-****?

The difference was less than 3 points per game, offset by a ***-load more turnovers last year.

We've been over this. Our offense was mediocre last season and our defense was a disaster.

Your argument only works if we LOST all games, and you know it. Disingenuous arguments used to cover your golden boy's tracks. But at this point it's a pride thing isn't it? That you have argued so hard for our douchey head coach that you can't even concede the fact that LESS points is worse. What's sixty points averaged over three games? Which would have probably gotten us into the playoffs.

It is a big deal and you know it. Usually those who are drowning in their own bs might stop and find a way to climb out and reevaluate what got them in the stinkhole in the first place.

The other funny thing is Orton's td/int ratio is almost the same as Cutler's, except Cutler scored more points.

Popps
01-25-2010, 05:25 PM
Your argument only works if we LOST all games, and you know it. .

Incorrect.

We scored less than 3 PPG less in 09, and we scored MORE after the week 3 mark from 08.

We turned the ball over much more last year.

Those are factual pieces of information.

Your crying won't change it.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 05:29 PM
I disagree with the bolded, but that above it I don't have too much problem with.

You said a few days ago we'll know for sure this time next year, and I agree with that also.

That.

I don't think 2 years is enough time to FULLY implement a system... but its more than enough time to show significant progress.

epicSocialism4tw
01-25-2010, 05:39 PM
I don't think mcd is stupid. He has to be more than capable of evaluating a group of players and figuring how best to use them.

The fact that he instead seems to be arbitraly following his system, damn the torpedos full speed ahead, it what really has me so concerend.

He's more interested in proving to people his system is superior, that he's losing focus of the bigger picture and how to make the Denver Broncos as competitive as possible.

The comparison between McD and ex-Mavs head coach Avery Johnson are eerie. Most of the people here wont know the reference, but I know both of them well.

Johnson came in and burned down the traces of the former coaching regime...completely changing courses trying to make the formerly offensively-oriented Dallas Mavericks into a defensive team.

Johnson was a knock-off wannabe of Gregg Popovich and sold himself to the Mavericks by claiming to bring the champion San Antonio Spurs' "system" to the Mavericks. There was even talk of making Dirk Nowitzki a player more in the vein of Tim Duncan...an impossibility. In the same way, McD is attempting to institute the Patriot Way in Denver, which is a proven and fundamentally sound system. This happens alot in sports, but these two instances are similar because they both involve taking a gimmicky offense and turning it into a fundamentallly oriented system.

Avery was abrasive, extremely strong-willed, unable to manage personalities, unable to give players breaks for problems or credit for accomplishments, unable to draw up plays or make adjustments (citing the need to "force their will" on opponents instead of adjusting to mask their weaknesses).

McD speaks Avery's language. Everything is about the "system" and the talented players can theoretically be replaced. Everything is about "team", and he treats them like college kids.

Avery wore thin on the Mavericks in a year-and-a-half, and the players had flat out bailed on him by the time the Mavs made the playoffs the next year.

He lost the team after 2 seasons and put the Mavs back a couple years in the process.

HAT
01-25-2010, 05:50 PM
We had 30 offensive turnovers in 2008, and 23 in 2009. That isn't exactly "on it's head" as you worded it.


You don't think that going from a TO differential of -17 (tied for 32nd) to a +7 (7th) is "turning it on it's head"?

Wow.

Dagmar
01-25-2010, 05:52 PM
No one cares about the ****ty Mavs Drama.

HAT
01-25-2010, 06:08 PM
It also translates to 60 points (70 if you add converted extra point tries) over the season. Those points would have gotten the Broncos into the playoffs.

Denver gave up the following point totals in their 8 losses.

30,28,27,32,28,20,30,44

Their average MOL was over 13 points.

23 or 24 PPG would not have changed the end result.

Turn the Raider game into a win and they still lose the tie breakers to the Jets & Ravens at 9-7.

Cito Pelon
01-25-2010, 06:31 PM
Denver gave up the following point totals in their 8 losses.

30,28,27,32,28,20,30,44

Their average MOL was over 13 points.

23 or 24 PPG would not have changed the end result.

Turn the Raider game into a win and they still lose the tie breakers to the Jets & Ravens at 9-7.

One of the three units has to get significantly better in 2010, I don't care which of them it is. One strong unit can win a Div Title and maybe a playoff game.

Preferably all three get significantly better, and that's what it takes to win League Titles or Conference Titles. Denver is mediocre in all three phases right now, and has been for a long time.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 06:49 PM
You don't think that going from a TO differential of -17 (tied for 32nd) to a +7 (7th) is "turning it on it's head"?

Wow.

Read thread title.

This is about the offense. Not the team. Never have I, never will I, claim the defense didn't grow light years from 08 to 09

Florida_Bronco
01-25-2010, 07:00 PM
I love how the thread calls for Mediator to come in and bash the team, too.

Sorry man, that's generally not his style.

Especially considering that Med has been nothing but support for McD and Co.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 07:07 PM
12, 27, 23, 17, 20, 34, 7, 10, 17, 3, 26, 44, 16, 19, 27, 24

there were 4 games where there was as much as a 10 point difference from what the team averaged every game.

2008

41, 39, 34, 19, 16, 17, 7, 17, 34, 24, 10, 34, 24, 10, 23, 21

8 games that there was at least a 10 point difference from what the average said they scored every game.


like i said, the 08 offense on paper can be seen as so much better by people who want to b**** about McDaniels, but it was hugely inconsistent, while the 09 offense doesn't seem as good it is much more consistent.

You're seriously going to hold games of 34 or more points scored AGAINST that offense?

How about this... we'll use the 20.4 ppg.

2008 scored above that average 7 times.

2009 scored above that average 9 times with a significantly worse defense, starting field position, and turnovers.

Dedhed
01-25-2010, 07:08 PM
Damn right.
Nobody will remember the 08 season, but I can tell you the epic collapse of the 09 season will not soon be forgotten!

Actually the 08 collapse was historically unprecedented.

Atwater His Ass
01-25-2010, 07:51 PM
You don't think that going from a TO differential of -17 (tied for 32nd) to a +7 (7th) is "turning it on it's head"?

Wow.

That would mostly be a credit to the defense, which has already been addressed.

The issue would be the incorrectly perceived notion that the 09 was somehow significantly superior in not turning the ball over.

Atwater His Ass
01-25-2010, 07:52 PM
Actually the 08 collapse was historically unprecedented.

Interesting theory, when one considers the main reasons for firing Shanahan.

HAT
01-25-2010, 08:05 PM
Read thread title.

This is about the offense. Not the team.

Yes...But you quoted Kaylore...Not the OP.

Even still....you are minimalizing how big of a difference there is between 30 give-aways and 23.

30 this year would be ranked 22nd league wide. 23 was good for 7th.

steeledude
01-25-2010, 08:07 PM
Denver gave up the following point totals in their 8 losses.

30,28,27,32,28,20,30,44

Their average MOL was over 13 points.

23 or 24 PPG would not have changed the end result.

Turn the Raider game into a win and they still lose the tie breakers to the Jets & Ravens at 9-7.

You can't convincingly say that those teams would have scored the same amount of points had we sustained more drives and scored more points. That alone changes things because the defense gets off the field.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 08:09 PM
Yes...But you quoted Kaylore...Not the OP.

Even still....you are minimalizing how big of a difference there is between 30 give-aways and 23.

30 this year would be ranked 22nd league wide. 23 was good for 7th.

.4 turnovers a game or .625 TDs?

BroncoMan4ever
01-25-2010, 09:28 PM
You're seriously going to hold games of 34 or more points scored AGAINST that offense?

How about this... we'll use the 20.4 ppg.

2008 scored above that average 7 times.

2009 scored above that average 9 times with a significantly worse defense, starting field position, and turnovers.

how about we talk about the fact that the 08 offense led by Cutler and Shanahan had completely inflated scoring average at the end of the season. no one who complains seems to recall the gimmick offense that completely caught the 1st 3 teams we played off guard and led to huge scoring days for the 1st 3 weeks of the season. the amount of points scored in thise games upped the teams scoring average for the year.

if you compare the offenses after week 3 in 08 and 09. the 09 offense was better

19.7 PPG average over the final 13 games of the season in 08

compared with

20.3 PPG avereaged over the final 13 games of the 09 season.


remove the opening to the 08 season, and it becomes obvious that the offense didn't get any worse from 08 to 09.

it was mediocre under Mike and it was mediocre under McDaniels.

TheReverend
01-25-2010, 09:32 PM
how about we talk about the fact that the 08 offense led by Cutler and Shanahan had completely inflated scoring average at the end of the season. no one who complains seems to recall the gimmick offense that completely caught the 1st 3 teams we played off guard and led to huge scoring days for the 1st 3 weeks of the season. the amount of points scored in thise games upped the teams scoring average for the year.

if you compare the offenses after week 3 in 08 and 09. the 09 offense was better

19.7 PPG average over the final 13 games of the season in 08

compared with

20.3 PPG avereaged over the final 13 games of the 09 season.


remove the opening to the 08 season, and it becomes obvious that the offense didn't get any worse from 08 to 09.

it was mediocre under Mike and it was mediocre under McDaniels.

Okay, so by your standards, we're a 2-8 football team then?

jhns
01-25-2010, 09:35 PM
Okay, so by your standards, we're a 2-8 football team then?

lol

HAT
01-25-2010, 11:06 PM
Okay, so by your standards, we're a 2-8 football team then?

That seems to be a prevailing sentiment on the 'Mane. :wiggle:

Hulamau
01-25-2010, 11:33 PM
Worked out pretty well for the Jets new head man. And the Colts new head man.

Waving your hands and saying 'it was his first year' isn't a *reason*. There are concrete, contemporary examples which counter this argument.

It's not all about coaching by any means, its what you inherit as well before having a chance to remake the roster to fit your scheme. Boith the teams you mention had rosters far more suited to their schemes than we did going in.

The Jets had a better overall offensive and defensive line and linebacker corp .. plus Darrel Revis to absolutely shut down every other teams number 1 WR. You can do allot with that. And Kudos to Rex for getting the most out of his players at seasons end.

The Colts have Payton Manning and very little team turnover, as well total consistency in coaching philosophy carried over from a winning franchise.

TheReverend
01-26-2010, 12:01 AM
That seems to be a prevailing sentiment on the 'Mane. :wiggle:

The point got through though, right?

Atwater His Ass
01-26-2010, 12:09 AM
how about we talk about the fact that the 08 offense led by Cutler and Shanahan had completely inflated scoring average at the end of the season. no one who complains seems to recall the gimmick offense that completely caught the 1st 3 teams we played off guard and led to huge scoring days for the 1st 3 weeks of the season. the amount of points scored in thise games upped the teams scoring average for the year.

if you compare the offenses after week 3 in 08 and 09. the 09 offense was better

19.7 PPG average over the final 13 games of the season in 08

compared with

20.3 PPG avereaged over the final 13 games of the 09 season.


remove the opening to the 08 season, and it becomes obvious that the offense didn't get any worse from 08 to 09.

it was mediocre under Mike and it was mediocre under McDaniels.

fail post of the thread, right here folks.

HAT
01-26-2010, 12:17 AM
The point got through though, right?

Absolutely....Cherry picking is cherry picking.