PDA

View Full Version : Taking the Forum's temperature: Post-season edition..


Popps
01-21-2010, 04:43 PM
So, we're coming up on free agency and the draft. After a season full of ups and downs, I'm curious where the hearts of Broncos fans are at this stage.


Heading into these big events (draft/FA) ...

Whatcha think?

oubronco
01-21-2010, 04:45 PM
I'm hoping for the best as always

Goobzilla
01-21-2010, 04:53 PM
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best ???

SureShot
01-21-2010, 04:54 PM
I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Taco John
01-21-2010, 05:05 PM
You should have put a mushy middle option. That would probably have garnered just as many votes as either of these two.

OBF1
01-21-2010, 05:12 PM
Where is the "I love Extreme Skins" and Mike Shanahan option ???

Bronx33
01-21-2010, 05:14 PM
Some folks around here prefer their temperatures be taken rectally. ( just a heads up)

Rohirrim
01-21-2010, 05:21 PM
It's too early to tell. Josh's first year has been probably the most extreme of any I've ever seen. He admitted he wasn't confident of what he was up to in last year's draft. I think we'll have a much better idea after FA and the draft - who he keeps, who he cuts, who he brings in to coach, etc. It will still be some while before we can enjoy the stability we've taken for granted the last ten years or so. Of course, that "stability" wasn't taking us anywhere. Bowlen rolled the dice. I'm still not sure if its seven or craps.

BroncoBuff
01-21-2010, 05:31 PM
There's not enough time for Josh ... we've regressed too far in the personnel area. A year ago we were loaded on offense, and could've concentrated 90% of our resources on defense. But now suddenly we need a #1 WR, a QBOTF, and a pass-catching TE, among other things.

I honestly don't think Josh has enough years to build the roster back up, even to where it was a year ago ... and frankly he hasn't shown he has the people skills necessary to foster a winning atmosphere.

I'm guessing a sub-500 2010, and he'll be gone sometime during or after 2011.

SoCalBronco
01-21-2010, 05:37 PM
I agree with Taco on the mushy middle option. Where are we going? I don't know. There are rays of hope and a basis of fear at the same time.

On offense, we've got reason to believe in the creativity and competence of head coach and his staff. They were able to confuse opponents for almost half a season with their schemes and on the whole, they did about as good as any staff could be expected to in turning chicken **** (Orton) into chicken salad. By the same token, they've also stripped out the famed ZBS and long tenured and competent coaches like Dennison and Turner were let go. It remains to be seen whether they can succeed with their new scheme. The days of plugging in a marginal talent and getting more than marginal production at the position are over. The Broncos cannot take it for granted any longer, they have to worry about their running game. The Broncos also have to worry about their offensive line. It's been almost appalling to see how this group has been warped in the transition. To be fair, factors outside of the staff's control (injuries and age) have also contributed to our decline in that area. I'm still opposed to the ditching of the ZBS, but I'm hopeful that we can replace the interior. It's been correctly pointed out that we've struggled in the past converting in the red zone and on the goalline with the ZBS, but I think this season proved that it wasn't so much the system but rather the personnel that led to that problem. I'm interested to see how the staff goes about getting bigger in the middle of the line. It will be absolutely critical not only in the red zone and goalline, but also in our "4-minute offense", when we're trying to protect a small lead and run out the clock at the end of halves and games.

The elimination of the tight end in the passing game and the decline of Eddie Royal also have to be troublesome. But, I am encouraged by Josh's comments about Royal. He DOES recognize that he needs to do a better job of incorporating him into the offense and he deserves credit for pointing that out on his own accord shortly after the season. Given his statement, I have confidence he will work to adjust the offense in the necessary ways to incorporate Eddie's talent more next season. Outside of the line, I think many of us are quite concerned about QB. I know that's a subject of deep divide here and in fact, its ALWAYS been that way. My own view is Orton should be extended on a very short term basis, only. That the FA market is thin in that department doesn't change the fact that he's not the answer. It's not his fault ofcourse. He's a hard worker and gamer, but that's not good enough. You've got to have some actual ability, too. My confidence in this offensive staff going forward will largely be determined by how they address this spot in the offseason. I can't give my thoughts because I don't know what their approach is yet on this. If they offer Orton a long term deal with a large bonus, that will be a terrible development from my view and really shake my confidence in them.

On defense, I really don't know what to think. I was happy with Mike Nolan and the job he did. I am very critical of the decision to let him go. There does appear to be some support for the suggestion that Josh does not get along with people well and that it's hurting our franchise. We'll see if Dean Pees or whoever they hire can replicate Nolan's success. It's been pointed out that we don't know was really responsible for the defensive improvement this year. I find it hard to believe that McDaniels was somehow directing the schemes during the 6-0 run, but Nolan was during the downturn. This is the type of after the fact homerism that's long been problematic on this board. Nolan is the coordinator, it is his defense. Likewise, Josh is the GM on talent. He brought in those players that were effective. So while I lament the loss of Nolan's undeniable coaching talent, the one thing I am encouraged by is that Josh's FA choices on D last year suggest he knows how to add credible talent to a defense. Dawkins did a nice job, Goodman did a nice job, Hill did a nice job, Davis did a nice job, Fields did a nice job and the cost as a whole was not that great. Josh deserves credit for that and it suggests his evaluations are reliable. Whether his new DC can actually scheme a defense and utilize talent like Nolan did is another question.

On the whole, I'm probably concerned about a few more things than I am hopeful about, but the difference is not great between the two. I'm definitely in the "mushy middle".

Popps
01-21-2010, 05:41 PM
You should have put a mushy middle option. That would probably have garnered just as many votes as either of these two.

True, but it's more interesting to ask people to dig down and answer with what their gut tells them. Because ultimately, it's one or the other.

TheReverend
01-21-2010, 05:45 PM
No undecided and we'll know a lot more this time next year option?

TheReverend
01-21-2010, 05:46 PM
In that case I HAVE to vote for wrong path, since I lean a lot closer to that option than progress. In fact, the only signs of progress I've even seen just skipped town to Miami...

watermock
01-21-2010, 05:48 PM
Dumbass...

DOWNHILL!

mr007
01-21-2010, 05:51 PM
Based on these two options, I can't see where we're making much progress. We were better, but older on D and we look to be shedding much of what seemed to be a promising young offense for years to come.

GoBroncos84
01-21-2010, 05:56 PM
I think I need to see one more draft and offseason before I can choose a side. As most fans, I am hoping for the best. But I was stoked about our direction this time last offseason, I was on the "just focus free agency and the draft on fixing our D because the pieces are there on offense to be special" bandwagon... and then Shanny was fired. I was pissed. Then I started to accept a change was needed, and we lose our QB... etc. Offseason of seemingly never ending drama. I put it all behind me and just hoped for the best. We start 6-0, and its looking like it was the right moves. Then the collapse. End of season drama with Marshall and Scheffler. Drama with Nolan. There has been so much change, and Josh has not yet proven he can solve problems diplomatically, and he has yet to show he can hit on the draft. None of our picks had stellar rookie seasons. We saw flashes, but thats it. And of all the choices he has made, trading the first round pick for a 2nd rounder still bugs me perhaps most of all.


So, I need time. I need to see what moves we make, how they handle certain issues facing the team, etc. There is too many elements in flux, and too many things that have yet to be proven. Josh's stubbornness will either save us or bury us. I do like McDaniels, I find his emotion refreshing. His offense takes time to learn and perfect, I expect us to be better this year simply based on having a season under our belt. But I can't fully endorse this staff until they have proven something

elsid13
01-21-2010, 05:59 PM
Right now it is crap shoot. For any positive steps taken there were three to four missteps that were ****ing disasters. The draft will be very important if this team is going to move in the right direction.

Mr.Meanie
01-21-2010, 06:01 PM
I agree with Taco on the mushy middle option. Where are we going? I don't know. There are rays of hope and a basis of fear at the same time.

On offense, we've got reason to believe in the creativity and competence of head coach and his staff. They were able to confuse opponents for almost half a season with their schemes and on the whole, they did about as good as any staff could be expected to in turning chicken **** (Orton) into chicken salad. By the same token, they've also stripped out the famed ZBS and long tenured and competent coaches like Dennison and Turner were let go. It remains to be seen whether they can succeed with their new scheme. The days of plugging in a marginal talent and getting more than marginal production at the position are over. The Broncos cannot take it for granted any longer, they have to worry about their running game. The Broncos also have to worry about their offensive line. It's been almost appalling to see how this group has been warped in the transition. To be fair, factors outside of the staff's control (injuries and age) have also contributed to our decline in that area. I'm still opposed to the ditching of the ZBS, but I'm hopeful that we can replace the interior. It's been correctly pointed out that we've struggled in the past converting in the red zone and on the goalline with the ZBS, but I think this season proved that it wasn't so much the system but rather the personnel that led to that problem. I'm interested to see how the staff goes about getting bigger in the middle of the line. It will be absolutely critical not only in the red zone and goalline, but also in our "4-minute offense", when we're trying to protect a small lead and run out the clock at the end of halves and games.

The elimination of the tight end in the passing game and the decline of Eddie Royal also have to be troublesome. But, I am encouraged by Josh's comments about Royal. He DOES recognize that he needs to do a better job of incorporating him into the offense and he deserves credit for pointing that out on his own accord shortly after the season. Given his statement, I have confidence he will work to adjust the offense in the necessary ways to incorporate Eddie's talent more next season. Outside of the line, I think many of us are quite concerned about QB. I know that's a subject of deep divide here and in fact, its ALWAYS been that way. My own view is Orton should be extended on a very short term basis, only. That the FA market is thin in that department doesn't change the fact that he's not the answer. It's not his fault ofcourse. He's a hard worker and gamer, but that's not good enough. You've got to have some actual ability, too. My confidence in this offensive staff going forward will largely be determined by how they address this spot in the offseason. I can't give my thoughts because I don't know what their approach is yet on this. If they offer Orton a long term deal with a large bonus, that will be a terrible development from my view and really shake my confidence in them.

On defense, I really don't know what to think. I was happy with Mike Nolan and the job he did. I am very critical of the decision to let him go. There does appear to be some support for the suggestion that Josh does not get along with people well and that it's hurting our franchise. We'll see if Dean Pees or whoever they hire can replicate Nolan's success. It's been pointed out that we don't know was really responsible for the defensive improvement this year. I find it hard to believe that McDaniels was somehow directing the schemes during the 6-0 run, but Nolan was during the downturn. This is the type of after the fact homerism that's long been problematic on this board. Nolan is the coordinator, it is his defense. Likewise, Josh is the GM on talent. He brought in those players that were effective. So while I lament the loss of Nolan's undeniable coaching talent, the one thing I am encouraged by is that Josh's FA choices on D last year suggest he knows how to add credible talent to a defense. Dawkins did a nice job, Goodman did a nice job, Hill did a nice job, Davis did a nice job, Fields did a nice job and the cost as a whole was not that great. Josh deserves credit for that and it suggests his evaluations are reliable. Whether his new DC can actually scheme a defense and utilize talent like Nolan did is another question.

On the whole, I'm probably concerned about a few more things than I am hopeful about, but the difference is not great between the two. I'm definitely in the "mushy middle".

Very nice post, and while I don't agree with all of that it's a solid take.

I don't mind the pessimism when it's backed up by logical coherent thought. Sadly many people on this forum are content with "dumbass... Downhill!" comments and think that passes for engaging discourse.

Bronx33
01-21-2010, 06:07 PM
In that case I HAVE to vote for wrong path, since I lean a lot closer to that option than progress. In fact, the only signs of progress I've even seen just skipped town to Miami...


Remember folks around here predicted epic complete failure before the 08 season i have faith in the chia pet head coach ;D

BroncoBuff
01-21-2010, 06:11 PM
Right now it is crap shoot. For any positive steps taken there were three to four missteps that were ****ing disasters. The draft will be very important if this team is going to move in the right direction.

Yes, but the draft will take too long to save Josh.

Remember, even Brandon Marshall barely played his rookie year.

NYBronco
01-21-2010, 06:30 PM
I have faith in the young man.
I've seen too many "experienced" coaches fail with better "talent".

broncosteven
01-21-2010, 06:43 PM
Right now it is crap shoot. For any positive steps taken there were three to four missteps that were ****ing disasters. The draft will be very important if this team is going to move in the right direction.

I agree the draft is very important but I think the way they handle Marshall's apparent departure will tell a lot about how things go.

Taco John
01-21-2010, 06:45 PM
True, but it's more interesting to ask people to dig down and answer with what their gut tells them. Because ultimately, it's one or the other.

There will be a lot of people who will be inclined to abstain because they truly can't decide between one or the other.

Popps
01-21-2010, 06:48 PM
There will be a lot of people who will be inclined to abstain because they truly can't decide between one or the other.

Fair enough.

This is more to gauge instinct, not to see who's "right."


The stock market is going to open tomorrow and go up or down. It won't go "I can't decide."

This poll is just to gauge the general feeling of things... and to see where people fall on the issue.


(The market will open down tomorrow, btw.)

Taco John
01-21-2010, 06:51 PM
If this were the market, my choices would be buy/sell/hold.

I would hold my position. I wouldn't buy any more. I wouldn't sell any more. I would hold my position and wait for more indicators.

broncosteven
01-21-2010, 06:58 PM
There will be a lot of people who will be inclined to abstain because they truly can't decide between one or the other.

That is why I am not voting.

oubronco
01-21-2010, 06:58 PM
I have faith in the young man.
I've seen too many "experienced" coaches fail with better "talent".

that's a good point

Arkie
01-21-2010, 06:58 PM
I'm hoping for the Super Bowl, but realistically, most of the great coaches were unsuccessful at their first stop.

Mr.Meanie
01-21-2010, 07:01 PM
If this were the market, my choices would be buy/sell/hold.

I would hold my position. I wouldn't buy any more. I wouldn't sell any more. I would hold my position and wait for more indicators.

If this were the market the poll would be a margin call, and you would be forced to either sell or add more money. ;)

KipCorrington25
01-21-2010, 07:04 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/32Pwf9kql7E&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/32Pwf9kql7E&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

elsid13
01-21-2010, 07:18 PM
Yes, but the draft will take too long to save Josh.

Remember, even Brandon Marshall barely played his rookie year.

I don't care if McDaniels is here or not. Talent on the field wins games, not coaches.

elsid13
01-21-2010, 07:19 PM
That is why I am not voting.

That is not an option!

Popps
01-21-2010, 07:21 PM
If this were the market, my choices would be buy/sell/hold.

I would hold my position. I wouldn't buy any more. I wouldn't sell any more. I would hold my position and wait for more indicators.

So, then the better analogy would be options.

It's a day before expiration, and you've got to get long/short via puts/calls. You've got to buy and hold to close.

Which one are you buying? In other words, if you had to move... which way would it be.

Popps
01-21-2010, 07:25 PM
That is why I am not voting.

That's cool. I think people are mistaking this for the chance to be "right" about something. It's not that at all. I'm interested in gut feeling, outlook and instinct about this team.


Again, there are a million analogies.

You've just been check raised after bluffing on the river. You can go all in if you sense a bluff, or fold. The action is on you... and you've got two choices.

Taco John
01-21-2010, 08:03 PM
If I had to move right now, I would buy just enough to keep my head above water. It's hard for me to look at this team that just lost continuity at the Defensive Coordinator, Offensive line coach, and runningback coach positions and say that we're taking strides forward. But, I'm OK with giving Josh more time to get his guys and his system in place.

I'm anxious to see what happens with Marshall and Dumervil

orangenblue
01-21-2010, 08:07 PM
At some point we need to find a franchise QB. ASAP would be best. Without a QB ranked in the top 10 in the NFL, winning a Super Bowl is not going to happen.

orinjkrush
01-21-2010, 08:07 PM
my GUESS is, while josh may be the brightest kid in the room, he has pissed everybody else off enough that he will be standing alone in there.

broncosteven
01-21-2010, 08:13 PM
That's cool. I think people are mistaking this for the chance to be "right" about something. It's not that at all. I'm interested in gut feeling, outlook and instinct about this team.


Again, there are a million analogies.

You've just been check raised after bluffing on the river. You can go all in if you sense a bluff, or fold. The action is on you... and you've got two choices.

Depends on the stacks, blinds, the pot, and the player.

If someone raises after checking I am guessing they hit on a card that helped them or they were baiting with the nuts so depending on the player and what our stacks are I would likely fold.

Now if they raised then checked the next round I might push them all in if I was trailing in chip lead and needed to make something happen.

broncosteven
01-21-2010, 08:14 PM
That is not an option!

Neither is Failure, but that has happened alot the last 3 years...

Popps
01-21-2010, 08:28 PM
If I had to move right now, I would buy just enough to keep my head above water. It's hard for me to look at this team that just lost continuity at the Defensive Coordinator, Offensive line coach, and runningback coach positions and say that we're taking strides forward. But, I'm OK with giving Josh more time to get his guys and his system in place.

I'm anxious to see what happens with Marshall and Dumervil

I think Marshall is probably gone, but we'll lock up Doom.

I think a few nice offseason moves will improve the mood around here, quickly. Though, it looks like people are remaining fairly optimistic, even through this turbulence.

~Crash~
01-21-2010, 09:13 PM
I don't care if McDaniels is here or not. Talent on the field wins games, not coaches.

Wrong dead ***ing wrong !

~Crash~
01-21-2010, 09:23 PM
Coaching helps win games . but players being put in the right position utilize all their talents A coach that see weakness of other teams and totally utilize all their players to take advantages of there opponents weakness . most Good coaches get all their player ready to play the season by the way . Not this one but most do Royal set almost every rookie record ever ... that just pisses me off to no end were he ended up this year . he was totally forgot buy the end of the year Bull **** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Killericon
01-21-2010, 09:31 PM
My temperature? I'M RUNNING A BRONCOS FEVER, BITCHES!

Someone had to say it.

Dagmar
01-21-2010, 09:45 PM
Yes, but the draft will take too long to save Josh.

Remember, even Brandon Marshall barely played his rookie year.

Right.

Where are you defending all of the Alphonso Smith, Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers bashing posts?

Popps
01-21-2010, 10:00 PM
My temperature? I'M RUNNING A BRONCOS FEVER, b****ES!

Someone had to say it.



/Lock it up.

SureShot
01-21-2010, 10:01 PM
That is why I am not voting.

Gene would vote.

DBroncos4life
01-21-2010, 10:10 PM
I think Marshall is probably gone, but we'll lock up Doom.

I think a few nice offseason moves will improve the mood around here, quickly. Though, it looks like people are remaining fairly optimistic, even through this turbulence.

I worry about Doom more then anyone else. What would stop the Packers from giving up a first rounder for Doom? I don't think Aaron Kampman fits the 3-4 as well as Doom and he is a FA as well. There pick is late (23) and they would gain instant impact for a improving team. The market for a pass rushing OLB in a system suddenly ran by everyone is going to be in demand. I would worry about the Skins but I don't think they would move the 4th pick for Marshall or Doom, but if they made a trade prior to the draft moving them late in the draft they might target either one of those guys that we don't signed.

SouthStndJunkie
01-21-2010, 10:36 PM
I agree with Taco on the mushy middle option. Where are we going? I don't know. There are rays of hope and a basis of fear at the same time.

On offense, we've got reason to believe in the creativity and competence of head coach and his staff. They were able to confuse opponents for almost half a season with their schemes and on the whole, they did about as good as any staff could be expected to in turning chicken **** (Orton) into chicken salad. By the same token, they've also stripped out the famed ZBS and long tenured and competent coaches like Dennison and Turner were let go. It remains to be seen whether they can succeed with their new scheme. The days of plugging in a marginal talent and getting more than marginal production at the position are over. The Broncos cannot take it for granted any longer, they have to worry about their running game. The Broncos also have to worry about their offensive line. It's been almost appalling to see how this group has been warped in the transition. To be fair, factors outside of the staff's control (injuries and age) have also contributed to our decline in that area. I'm still opposed to the ditching of the ZBS, but I'm hopeful that we can replace the interior. It's been correctly pointed out that we've struggled in the past converting in the red zone and on the goalline with the ZBS, but I think this season proved that it wasn't so much the system but rather the personnel that led to that problem. I'm interested to see how the staff goes about getting bigger in the middle of the line. It will be absolutely critical not only in the red zone and goalline, but also in our "4-minute offense", when we're trying to protect a small lead and run out the clock at the end of halves and games.

The elimination of the tight end in the passing game and the decline of Eddie Royal also have to be troublesome. But, I am encouraged by Josh's comments about Royal. He DOES recognize that he needs to do a better job of incorporating him into the offense and he deserves credit for pointing that out on his own accord shortly after the season. Given his statement, I have confidence he will work to adjust the offense in the necessary ways to incorporate Eddie's talent more next season. Outside of the line, I think many of us are quite concerned about QB. I know that's a subject of deep divide here and in fact, its ALWAYS been that way. My own view is Orton should be extended on a very short term basis, only. That the FA market is thin in that department doesn't change the fact that he's not the answer. It's not his fault ofcourse. He's a hard worker and gamer, but that's not good enough. You've got to have some actual ability, too. My confidence in this offensive staff going forward will largely be determined by how they address this spot in the offseason. I can't give my thoughts because I don't know what their approach is yet on this. If they offer Orton a long term deal with a large bonus, that will be a terrible development from my view and really shake my confidence in them.

On defense, I really don't know what to think. I was happy with Mike Nolan and the job he did. I am very critical of the decision to let him go. There does appear to be some support for the suggestion that Josh does not get along with people well and that it's hurting our franchise. We'll see if Dean Pees or whoever they hire can replicate Nolan's success. It's been pointed out that we don't know was really responsible for the defensive improvement this year. I find it hard to believe that McDaniels was somehow directing the schemes during the 6-0 run, but Nolan was during the downturn. This is the type of after the fact homerism that's long been problematic on this board. Nolan is the coordinator, it is his defense. Likewise, Josh is the GM on talent. He brought in those players that were effective. So while I lament the loss of Nolan's undeniable coaching talent, the one thing I am encouraged by is that Josh's FA choices on D last year suggest he knows how to add credible talent to a defense. Dawkins did a nice job, Goodman did a nice job, Hill did a nice job, Davis did a nice job, Fields did a nice job and the cost as a whole was not that great. Josh deserves credit for that and it suggests his evaluations are reliable. Whether his new DC can actually scheme a defense and utilize talent like Nolan did is another question.

On the whole, I'm probably concerned about a few more things than I am hopeful about, but the difference is not great between the two. I'm definitely in the "mushy middle".

Solid take.

Durango
01-22-2010, 12:38 AM
I'm disappointed to the extreme and, since we're trusting the gut instincts, mine tell me this staff isn't long for this franchise.

McDaniels will get his second year, and he should, but I don't think he's the coaching answer for the Broncos long term. Maybe he will move on as Belichick did and become a great coach. It's happened many times before, so I suppose it could happen for him. I just don't think it'll happen here.

One thing more than just about anything else that irked me about McDaniels was his 'oh well' demeanor about the close of the season, including staggering losses to the freaking Oakland Raiders and Kansas City Chiefs for Gods sake, and missing the play-offs. That, and the incomprehensible fireworks he lit off during the off-season of course.

He seems completely removed from the fans of this franchise, and maybe equally uncaring.

Another goofy draft and half-loaf season and I would hope Bowlen would take the opportunity during a possible lock-out season or period to cut this guy loose and start over, however painful that might be in the short term.

Hulamau
01-22-2010, 12:55 AM
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best ???

Always a good philosophy Goob :-)

watermock
01-22-2010, 01:26 AM
http://awesometalks.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/aas221.jpg

Hulamau
01-22-2010, 01:35 AM
Some sage insight from Buddy Ryan ... of course it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this but truer words were never spoken about where it all starts in the NFL. We're about half the way there on the Oline and in need of that long awaited overhaul on the D line.


"....Buddy Ryan being Buddy Ryan, he's quick to point out he saw all this coming. When the former Eagles and Cardinals head coach visited one of his son's first Jets mini-camps last June, he was already talking about a Super Bowl being in New York's future.

"I've watched the offensive line and the defensive line, and when you win -- and you're going to win -- you have to have a great offensive line and a great defensive line,'' Buddy Ryan said at the time.

"They've got that here. I'm impressed with their enthusiasm, the way they work and hit, their size. I think you can near guarantee yourself a Super Bowl if they stay healthy, both offensive and defensive lines.''

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/01/21/buddy.ryan/index.html#ixzz0dKOM4owL

ZONA
01-22-2010, 01:50 AM
Yes, but the draft will take too long to save Josh.

Remember, even Brandon Marshall barely played his rookie year.

As if you know how long he has. Quit making me laugh. I'm sure Bowlen has his own time frame in mind, which you don't have the slightest clue as to what that may be. Bowlen knows things take time and he's not what you call an ancy owner. Who says it takes along time to build a good team. Wisenhunt did it in 2 years. And he inherited a very bad team. Every year there is some team that comes out and surprises people, like the Giants a few years ago, or like the Jets this year. It happens.

bpc
01-22-2010, 01:54 AM
Completely depends on our defensive coordinator and what we do in FA and the draft. As many have said, I'm hopeful but not encouraged by much of what has gone on this year outside of going 6-0.

I feel like we didn't make much progress this year on offense, in fact we'll most likely be turning over the WR/TE and interior line positions.

And the defense which I was hoping we could build into a machine is a year older, and now entering a new 3-4 system, with a new coach, probably bringing in new terminology.

Ah well, keep our fingers crossed and just say **** it. If McDaniels sucks, he'll get himself offed and we'll move on from there.

bpc
01-22-2010, 01:55 AM
Some sage insight from Buddy Ryan ... of course it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this but truer words were never spoken about where it all starts in the NFL. We're about half the way there on the Oline and in need of that long awaited overhaul on the D line.


"....Buddy Ryan being Buddy Ryan, he's quick to point out he saw all this coming. When the former Eagles and Cardinals head coach visited one of his son's first Jets mini-camps last June, he was already talking about a Super Bowl being in New York's future.

"I've watched the offensive line and the defensive line, and when you win -- and you're going to win -- you have to have a great offensive line and a great defensive line,'' Buddy Ryan said at the time.

"They've got that here. I'm impressed with their enthusiasm, the way they work and hit, their size. I think you can near guarantee yourself a Super Bowl if they stay healthy, both offensive and defensive lines.''

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/01/21/buddy.ryan/index.html#ixzz0dKOM4owL

So just a thought, maybe our 12 and 33rd pick last year could have been used in a more efficient manner. Most of you are calling for this defense to be built from the inside out but that's hardly what McD and co. did in year 1.

So in a way, you're complaining about it but you're not really willing to take McD to task over it.

ZONA
01-22-2010, 01:56 AM
I don't care if McDaniels is here or not. Talent on the field wins games, not coaches.

I tend to lean towards the same opinion but I'll throw in there that it really helps if some of your best talent is the QB. I'm not going to say any ole coach can win with great talent but great talent & decent coach gets you futher then great coach & decent talent.

ZONA
01-22-2010, 02:00 AM
Completely depends on our defensive coordinator and what we do in FA and the draft. As many have said, I'm hopeful but not encouraged by much of what has gone on this year outside of going 6-0.

I feel like we didn't make much progress this year on offense, in fact we'll most likely be turning over the WR/TE and interior line positions.

And the defense which I was hoping we could build into a machine is a year older, and now entering a new 3-4 system, with a new coach, probably bringing in new terminology.

Ah well, keep our fingers crossed and just say **** it. If McDaniels sucks, he'll get himself offed and we'll move on from there.


Now you're getting it. Much to all of our insightful comments and team discussions, what happens is what happens, it's not in our control and we just continue to move forward. Either Josh gets it done or he doesn't and we start over.

And for me, even if Josh turns into a good coach and we have great seasons, make the playoffs and all that stuff, winning it all is the only thing I give a damn about. A great example is the Chuggers. Reeled off what, 11 wins in a row, a 1st round bye in playoffs and now it's all over for them. You can't just be a good team, you need some luck, hopefully we become a good team and then we pray for some good luck, so we can win it all.

Hulamau
01-22-2010, 02:08 AM
I'm hoping for the Super Bowl, but realistically, most of the great coaches were unsuccessful at their first stop.

A lot of that has to do with the lack of patience and vision on the part of the owner and clamoring fans. Also at times some unfavorable front office scenarios too along with just too big a rebuilding project as well may have doomed a number of 'great coaches to be' in their first gig.

Sure, if the new coach shows he's a dim wit and doesn't have much respect from the players too, then cut him loose after a couple rough years, but if he has the smarts, talent and energy, and is a young guy that just needs to get all his wheels going in the right direction and fine tune the whole show, then it is rash and fool-hardy to get him up to speed only to cut him loose to go do great things for the competition.

That takes an owners with steel balls and vision as well. And the smarts to know the difference between a coach who is over his head and a potential football genius who needs a little time and support to fully blossom. A smart owner will know when he has the real deal in his midst, even if that real deal is still in transition.

For this American Idol/Video Game instant gratification or die world we live in though, its tougher and tougher to pull that off.

At least Josh has the right scenario with the right owner and franchise to help give him the best shot to turn this all around in hopefully his first and last job ... at least for many many years.

Too bad about a third of the fan base vetoed him, judging from this poll. And many of them before he could say 'Boo', but that only makes me all the more grateful that Bowlen doesn't share such myopic and knee-jerk reactions and is the one making the decision and signing the checks and pink slips at Dove Valley.

Popps
01-22-2010, 02:14 AM
Bowlen knows what he's doing. It's comical that with the track record he has, people want to suddenly believe they're smarter than he is.

Doesn't mean he's right about McDaniels, but it means he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

I personally think McDaniels will end up a great coach in this league. I just have no idea if it will be with us or not. He'll need time and resources. I happen to believe Bowlen will give him both, but we'll see.

TheReverend
01-22-2010, 02:39 AM
Bowlen knows what he's doing. It's comical that with the track record he has, people want to suddenly believe they're smarter than he is.

Doesn't mean he's right about McDaniels, but it means he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

I personally think McDaniels will end up a great coach in this league. I just have no idea if it will be with us or not. He'll need time and resources. I happen to believe Bowlen will give him both, but we'll see.

What track record?

He hired Mike Shanahan. Period. Wade didn't turn out well in Denver. That means he's batting .500

Hulamau
01-22-2010, 02:47 AM
So just a thought, maybe our 12 and 33rd pick last year could have been used in a more efficient manner. Most of you are calling for this defense to be built from the inside out but that's hardly what McD and co. did in year 1.

So in a way, you're complaining about it but you're not really willing to take McD to task over it.

No, it may well be that those picks turn out to not have been the best possible for us at the time. But you miss the larger point Chris as you have all year.

Josh IS going to make mistakes ... Get it ...he is. So let him make a few without trying your best to run him out of town EVERY time he sneezes... And beside, these two picks may not be mistakes at all over the net few years, the jury is still out on both Knowshon and Smith, Particularly Moreno.

You've turned into one of the most persistent of these knee-jerkers which really surprises me , but I guess the emotional impact of losing Shanny and Gutless can do that to a guy.

There isn't a single coach on planet earth that has hit on all their draft picks either. By that criteria Shanny would have been tarred and feather years ago.

Its not only hitting on a stud in the players first year in the NFL. Its also about finding diamonds in the rough who the coach can develop into marquee players. Or ask James Harrison how that works?

Alphonso may or may not turn out to be a bust for the position we took him. His first year was disappointing.

But in your constant search for any thing to complain about Consider this:

The last draft Josh was hamstrung by not having his own scouts and network in place who knew just what his team and vision needed and had spent the prior year scouting their areas for the right guys to pick.

He was in the middle of a few month whirlwind of trying to rebuild this team and get it off the ground in his very first year as a coach. Made all the more insane with Cutler getting his titties in a twister before the draft.

He admitted too they could not be as prepared as he would have liked for last years draft. So lets see how it goes this year and as importantly what we do in FA and how they put it all together now that it is crystal clear just what this team needs to become what he wants it to be.

Perhaps Knowshon has a break out year and Alphonso nails down the starting nickle job? Or maybe they both turn out to be disappointments.

Time will tell, but for you to proclaim them both busts now is premature any way you slice it.

The funny thing is the folks here who were ragging on McD all during the offseason and then grudgingly started to crawl on the bandwagon a bit by end of game 6, only to once again be throwing darts and proclaiming "I told You so" by week 17 are just as foolish now as they have been all along.

The truth is none of us know how this will play out. You've got to give this some time and allow for Josh making his share of rookie mistakes too, as well as show the tremendous promise and smarts he has as well.

Let him grow into a bit Chris and consider crawling out of the toxic sewer of negativity you've wandered into. Think of it like this, if he is the wrong guy or over his head, he'll be gone soon enough as it is. You have NOTHING to worry about!

We were 8-8 his first year and played competitive ball and we in it with a chance to win in the 4th quarter in all but 3 games or so. Thats a damn sight better than you or 75% of the public expected last summer.

The Broncos will win again either way. And more likely the sooner with Josh running the show than without. Try some breathing exercises or something the next time you think or hear Josh's name. This cant be good for your health.

colonelbeef
01-22-2010, 08:35 AM
I am somewhere in between.

The two options are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I think QB is the single biggest variable in the equation, as the Broncos will never win with Orton, much like the Cowboys will never win with Wade Phillips as HC.

This team is not headed in the right or wrong direction currently imo, it is in reality directionless; without a championship caliber QB, about to lose the remaining quality skill position players on offense, and fielding an old defense.

UberBroncoMan
01-22-2010, 08:37 AM
I'm in the middle.

... really wish there was a middle option.

elsid13
01-22-2010, 08:39 AM
I tend to lean towards the same opinion but I'll throw in there that it really helps if some of your best talent is the QB. I'm not going to say any ole coach can win with great talent but great talent & decent coach gets you futher then great coach & decent talent.

I agree. A great/elite QB makes any HC look like he belongs in HOF.

Lolad
01-22-2010, 08:40 AM
You should have put a mushy middle option. That would probably have garnered just as many votes as either of these two.

This. I'm in the middle but leaning towards the abandon ship

elsid13
01-22-2010, 08:45 AM
Wrong dead ***ing wrong !

When was the last time a coach scored a TD or stuff someone on the goal line.

Rohirrim
01-22-2010, 08:45 AM
I agree. A great/elite QB makes any HC look like he belongs in HOF.

Caldwell wears a head-set so he can hear what play Payaton is calling.

jhns
01-22-2010, 08:50 AM
This is pretty early since the offseason hasn't really started but I would say we are on the wrong path. I think the only way McDaniels stays here and is successful in the long term is if he gets a real QB. If he ties himself to Orton, it is going to take far to long to perfect the rest of the team so that we are actually competing with a "game manager", aka bad/average/not good enough QB. Josh would win me over if I didn't think he really wants to stay with Orton no matter what.

The firing of Nolan also me worried. The defense is the side of the ball that didn't regress. Nolan was the only reason I stopped wanting McDaniels fired. I liked the staff McDaniels had put together. Little did I know, he didn't put in the work to actually understand what his defensive coordinator would be doing.

Broncos_OTM
01-22-2010, 08:52 AM
I love my Denver Broncos. But i have drank the koolaid to long. I guess you could consider me a "moderate" discontent.

bendog
01-22-2010, 08:52 AM
I'm waiting to see if moreno can break tackles and if Ayers and shorty can play.

Broncos_OTM
01-22-2010, 08:54 AM
Caldwell wears a head-set so he can hear what play Payaton is calling.

The way you describe it. makes me think Peyton has a Microphone in his helmet. ""Confused""

elsid13
01-22-2010, 08:54 AM
Caldwell wears a head-set so he can hear what play Payaton is calling.

He just the latest example.

Off the top my head

Gruden looked an elite offense HC when he had Gannon playing at elite level
George Seifert brilliant in SF with Young, sucked in Carolina
Jimmy Johnson - Aikman = Superbowls, Miami so-so

Broncos_OTM
01-22-2010, 08:58 AM
No, it may well be that those picks turn out to not have been the best possible for us at the time. But you miss the larger point Chris as you have all year.

Josh IS going to make mistakes ... Get it ...he is. So let him make a few without trying your best to run him out of town EVERY time he sneezes... And beside, these two picks may not be mistakes at all over the net few years, the jury is still out on both Knowshon and Smith, Particularly Moreno.

You've turned into one of the most persistent of these knee-jerkers which really surprises me , but I guess the emotional impact of losing Shanny and Gutless can do that to a guy.

There isn't a single coach on planet earth that has hit on all their draft picks either. By that criteria Shanny would have been tarred and feather years ago.

Its not only hitting on a stud in the players first year in the NFL. Its also about finding diamonds in the rough who the coach can develop into marquee players. Or ask James Harrison how that works?

Alphonso may or may not turn out to be a bust for the position we took him. His first year was disappointing.

But in your constant search for any thing to complain about Consider this:

The last draft Josh was hamstrung by not having his own scouts and network in place who knew just what his team and vision needed and had spent the prior year scouting their areas for the right guys to pick.

He was in the middle of a few month whirlwind of trying to rebuild this team and get it off the ground in his very first year as a coach. Made all the more insane with Cutler getting his titties in a twister before the draft.

He admitted too they could not be as prepared as he would have liked for last years draft. So lets see how it goes this year and as importantly what we do in FA and how they put it all together now that it is crystal clear just what this team needs to become what he wants it to be.

Perhaps Knowshon has a break out year and Alphonso nails down the starting nickle job? Or maybe they both turn out to be disappointments.

Time will tell, but for you to proclaim them both busts now is premature any way you slice it.

The funny thing is the folks here who were ragging on McD all during the offseason and then grudgingly started to crawl on the bandwagon a bit by end of game 6, only to once again be throwing darts and proclaiming "I told You so" by week 17 are just as foolish now as they have been all along.

The truth is none of us know how this will play out. You've got to give this some time and allow for Josh making his share of rookie mistakes too, as well as show the tremendous promise and smarts he has as well.

Let him grow into a bit Chris and consider crawling out of the toxic sewer of negativity you've wandered into. Think of it like this, if he is the wrong guy or over his head, he'll be gone soon enough as it is. You have NOTHING to worry about!

We were 8-8 his first year and played competitive ball and we in it with a chance to win in the 4th quarter in all but 3 games or so. Thats a damn sight better than you or 75% of the public expected last summer.

The Broncos will win again either way. And more likely the sooner with Josh running the show than without. Try some breathing exercises or something the next time you think or hear Josh's name. This cant be good for your health.
I was willing to give Mcdaniels Two years and stayed faithful up to the point of Nolan and MCD parting ways. NO indication that we will pay dumervil who deserves to be paid.The whole Bmarsh situation. I am just not sure he is a leader of men. I think early the guys bought into him but i just have this feeling this team gave in.

jhns
01-22-2010, 08:58 AM
Whenever we do part ways with McDaniels, I would really like to see this team adopt a normal NFL power structure. I think it is what hurt Shanahan and I think it is the one big problem with McDaniels. We need a GM that is in charge, a coach that coaches, and coordinators that coordinate. Right now, we have a coach trying to do all three. It seems to be to much. Also, if we want to let the coach do it all, it may be somewhat smart to get a guy with at least some experience. I don't get why Bowlen trusts the entire franchise to a guy that has only been in the NFL like 8 years, only has 2 seasons as a coordinator, and has 0 seasons as a head coach or GM. It doesn't make any sense.

jhns
01-22-2010, 09:07 AM
There isn't a single coach on planet earth that has hit on all their draft picks either. By that criteria Shanny would have been tarred and feather years ago.

Its not only hitting on a stud in the players first year in the NFL. Its also about finding diamonds in the rough who the coach can develop into marquee players. Or ask James Harrison how that works?

Alphonso may or may not turn out to be a bust for the position we took him. His first year was disappointing.

But in your constant search for any thing to complain about Consider this:

The last draft Josh was hamstrung by not having his own scouts and network in place who knew just what his team and vision needed and had spent the prior year scouting their areas for the right guys to pick.


There aren't many coaches that have 5 picks in the first two rounds either....

As for this second part, wouldn't I then make sense to not trade future firsts when you aren't very well prepared for the draft? There is no way to defend trading a future first, especially for a rebuilding team. If this draft doesn't have a few starters in it, it is a complete bust. There are no good excuses for this. Shanahan never had near the ammo in a draft that McDaniels just had. The drafts are also the reason Shanahan isn't here. The comparisons ti his drafting don't seem that good to me.

Rabb
01-22-2010, 09:10 AM
I can't vote, the choices are too extreme

I am in a holding pattern in terms of hope

bpc
01-22-2010, 09:16 AM
No, it may well be that those picks turn out to not have been the best possible for us at the time. But you miss the larger point Chris as you have all year.

Josh IS going to make mistakes ... Get it ...he is. So let him make a few without trying your best to run him out of town EVERY time he sneezes... And beside, these two picks may not be mistakes at all over the net few years, the jury is still out on both Knowshon and Smith, Particularly Moreno.

You've turned into one of the most persistent of these knee-jerkers which really surprises me , but I guess the emotional impact of losing Shanny and Gutless can do that to a guy.

There isn't a single coach on planet earth that has hit on all their draft picks either. By that criteria Shanny would have been tarred and feather years ago.

Its not only hitting on a stud in the players first year in the NFL. Its also about finding diamonds in the rough who the coach can develop into marquee players. Or ask James Harrison how that works?

Alphonso may or may not turn out to be a bust for the position we took him. His first year was disappointing.

But in your constant search for any thing to complain about Consider this:

The last draft Josh was hamstrung by not having his own scouts and network in place who knew just what his team and vision needed and had spent the prior year scouting their areas for the right guys to pick.

He was in the middle of a few month whirlwind of trying to rebuild this team and get it off the ground in his very first year as a coach. Made all the more insane with Cutler getting his titties in a twister before the draft.

He admitted too they could not be as prepared as he would have liked for last years draft. So lets see how it goes this year and as importantly what we do in FA and how they put it all together now that it is crystal clear just what this team needs to become what he wants it to be.

Perhaps Knowshon has a break out year and Alphonso nails down the starting nickle job? Or maybe they both turn out to be disappointments.

Time will tell, but for you to proclaim them both busts now is premature any way you slice it.

The funny thing is the folks here who were ragging on McD all during the offseason and then grudgingly started to crawl on the bandwagon a bit by end of game 6, only to once again be throwing darts and proclaiming "I told You so" by week 17 are just as foolish now as they have been all along.

The truth is none of us know how this will play out. You've got to give this some time and allow for Josh making his share of rookie mistakes too, as well as show the tremendous promise and smarts he has as well.

Let him grow into a bit Chris and consider crawling out of the toxic sewer of negativity you've wandered into. Think of it like this, if he is the wrong guy or over his head, he'll be gone soon enough as it is. You have NOTHING to worry about!

We were 8-8 his first year and played competitive ball and we in it with a chance to win in the 4th quarter in all but 3 games or so. Thats a damn sight better than you or 75% of the public expected last summer.

The Broncos will win again either way. And more likely the sooner with Josh running the show than without. Try some breathing exercises or something the next time you think or hear Josh's name. This cant be good for your health.

The reason we're not further along is his responsibility. It has nothing to do with growing on the job. Am I supposed to be extra patient because we hired a 32 year old head coach who went on to frag the offense and underdraft at several positions which you all are still complaining about? Wade Phillips got two years, and his expertise on defense was largely a failure. You draw the lines to what has happened with Mcd in the last year.

"He didn't have his scouts in place..." Then why trade a future 1st round pick for a small, slower, corner in that draft if he was unsure about what was going on? Why brag about a 30-50 player draft board? So it wasn't really his choice, that's just all the players he had time to break down? This still doesn't reason why he didn't draft more players on the line. Did he not understand after watching all the film from 2008 (did he watch the film? apparently he did enough to know that Jay wasn't his guy) that those positions were going to be issues in his system and the numerous FA's we signed at Cb and HB should have been enough to hold down those spots?

Did he know those positions were going to be issues? He didn't seem to have a problem throwing his OL under the bus after the fact.

Regardless, what's done is done. I'm not casting judgement on Moreno and Smith. I hope they are pro bowlers in the future. From their first year, they looked slow and not very explosive. For a team lacking explosive playmakers and speed, they aren't filling that void. McD will obviously be here through at least next season. Right now, with the decisions he's made, he's given himself enough slack on his rope to hang himself and i'm pretty sure he'll continue to do so. In the meantime I just have to put up with his arrogant, petulant, off-putting personality until he gets himself wacked.

BTW, I didn't bring up Shanhan or Cutler, you did. Again. Just like you guys always do. You ask to talk about the team now, not dwell on the past, but you guys bring up the same stuff. Who gives a **** if i'm disappointed in what this team has become. What's it to you? You ask to talk football. We talk football. Then you turn the discussion right back to the point you ask me to get over?

That's the most retarded thing i've ever seen. Just drop bringing that stuff up, especially if you don't want me to take up the defense of the mistakes that have been made in Denver.

bendog
01-22-2010, 09:23 AM
It's too early to tell. But he's got to have gotten a 1500 yd back and/or a probowl defender out of that last draft AND get a probowl player in this one with his first rounder or y'all can screw the pooch, if ya know what I mean. Regardless of whether it turns out this guy can coach or not, the fat's in the fire with the draft. He'll have had two drafts so he'd better have restocked the front 7 on D if he wants to play billicheat's defense. Billicheat did it by getting the Ravens picks for bollar, now we'll see if this guy's got the chops.

Requiem
01-22-2010, 09:35 AM
McDaniels never bragged about the smaller draft board. JFC.

Pick Six
01-22-2010, 10:30 AM
Wrong dead ***ing wrong !

*cough* Wade Phillips *cough*

bpc
01-22-2010, 10:45 AM
McDaniels never bragged about the smaller draft board. JFC.

Things I Yell at the TV: 4/29/09

"How arrogant can Josh McDaniels be?"

The Denver Broncos' 33-year-old Boy Blunder boasted this week that his draft board had fewer than 100 names on it, which made it easy for him to make his picks. Less than a hundred names when 256 players were drafted? Most boards had 500-plus names on them! Furthermore, he said the Broncos had worked out nearly 30 players and all 10 of his choices were among those 30. In other words, "I'm not capable of making a mistake. If I didn't work the guy out, the guy wasn't good enough. Period." This is the same genius who traded one of Denver's first-round choices in 2010 to move up in the second round to take a 5'9'' defensive back—Alphonso Smith. To repeat: Boy Blunder used a first to take a second. And if the Broncos are going to be as lame as I think they're going to be—4-12 perhaps—that first-round pick will be very high. McDaniels is the worst combination of things: Terribly naïve and doubly confident. Bronco fans, you're screwed.


From Rick Reilly's blog on espn.com. Should be about three or four posts down on the link below.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/package?id=3835137

bendog
01-22-2010, 10:57 AM
I don't think the quote was that extreme

On strategy during draft

"I think we were aggressive, if you want to use that term. We didn't have that many players on our board once we were done with the evaluation, and that was the goal. ‘Let's get the players on the board that we want on our team. Let's not have 200 names up there if we don't want 200 guys on our roster.' So, we had a board that was thinned out. (General Manager) Brian (Xanders), and the scouts and the coaches did a great job evaluating the players they had in their areas. And, by the end of the process, our board was thin. We knew we wanted to come away with players on our board and we did, we didn't go to the back board for anybody. At some certain points in the draft, I think you ask yourself ‘If we wait, is he going to be there?' And there were a few times where we felt like there's no way. If we wait, we're not going to be able to attain a player that we'd like to get. We weighed the value of what we were trading to try to go ahead and get the players that we were looking to get. And we have a totally full draft next year, one through seven. So, we didn't give away any rounds next year. We had a couple extra (this year) and we used those to move and get the players in this year's draft."

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/26/855125/josh-mcdaniels-discusses-day-2-of

nevertheless, the overall mindset was that he knows more than .... parcells or holmgren or anyone else. It was like doing a fantasy baseball draft where you foolishly cull out over half the players cause you think they're not as good as others at their position, and are happy to get less bodies into camp to see if you got a diamond. Which was the jimmy johnson parcells type modes. Plus it was damn stupid when you have as many holes on the defense as they had, and now with BM and Scheffler being fired, they have more holes than they had when Shanny got fired.

But, he's only had one draft. It appears to have been a pretty bad draft, but maybe Ayers and Smith can find the field. Really too early to call it a waste. And, he'll get at least one more. maybe he'll be proven right at the end of the day.

bpc
01-22-2010, 11:16 AM
That report still looks terrible to me.

I think Ayers will be fine, but really the worst thing for his progress is what we did... removing a great DC from coaching him up. Now he's starting over in year two. Pretty foolish IMO. Same could be said for Alphonso Smith. Very short sighted thinking.

I still think it's ironic that people here are blasting the talent on the lines (blaming Shanny of course!) but aren't willing to take McDaniels to task over the two third rounds he wasted trading for a backup blocking TE who couldn't catch a cold at UNC.

gyldenlove
01-22-2010, 11:17 AM
"I think we were aggressive, if you want to use that term. We didn't have that many players on our board once we were done with the evaluation, and that was the goal. ‘Let's get the players on the board that we want on our team. Let's not have 200 names up there if we don't want 200 guys on our roster.' So, we had a board that was thinned out. (General Manager) Brian (Xanders), and the scouts and the coaches did a great job evaluating the players they had in their areas. And, by the end of the process, our board was thin. We knew we wanted to come away with players on our board and we did, we didn't go to the back board for anybody. At some certain points in the draft, I think you ask yourself ‘If we wait, is he going to be there?' And there were a few times where we felt like there's no way. If we wait, we're not going to be able to attain a player that we'd like to get. We weighed the value of what we were trading to try to go ahead and get the players that we were looking to get. And we have a totally full draft next year, one through seven. So, we didn't give away any rounds next year. We had a couple extra (this year) and we used those to move and get the players in this year's draft."


I find that statement hard to marry with this one:

"This year's draft should be totally different for us," McDaniels said.

Last year, the Broncos fired two key members of their front office, Jim and Jeff Goodman, in mid-February. That was a major change, just before the scouting combine.

"We changed some of the things we were looking for in indivudual players, whether it was a bigger player here or a faster player there," McDaniels said.

McDaniels said scouts and the front office are now well versed in what the team is looking for. An initial draft board has already been set up based on what they saw during the college season.

"We'll have an entire offseason where we're not trying to fill staff positions and do so many things to the roster, hopefully, that we did last year," McDaniels said. "We should have a chance to have a solid four months getting ready for the draft."


To me it seems like Goodman would have known that you can't prepare as well for a draft when you don't have a full offseason, so uprooting the scouting department right before the combine when they were already on a shortened offseason was maybe not the best idea.


It is true that if you wait that one player might not be there, but frankly that is not an issue if you don't fall in love with a specific underperformer and instead scout several players at different value brackets. Why did we have to have a TE who can't catch in 2nd round or a slow undersized CB? or did we really need to trade up for Mckinley and Brandstater? It seems to me that a bit less panic and a bit more scouting would have gone a long way.


Of course we don't have a full roster of draft picks at all since Mcdaniels shipped a 5th and 7th out for players of marginal contribution. If we on the other hand hadn't traded away draft picks like they were bologna sandwiches during the draft last year we would have been able to make those trades without going into the draft lacking picks - but hey, at least it looks like he realized that he was entirely wrong on his approach to the draft last year.

bpc
01-22-2010, 12:31 PM
Very simple, we added a slow, small CB and a slow TE with bad hands in the 2nd round. We traded to get both of them.

Now the locals on this board are pissed.

"Our interior OL sucks, they aren't tough enough, strong enough to run the offense McD wants run, this is all Shanny's fault!!!"

Yet, had we got with Adam Levitre (Oregon State) as I had recommended (we could have landed him at 2A) or even not traded our 2 3rd round picks to select Quinn (part time run blocking TE, that can't catch?) in round 2, we could have had Louis Vasquez from Texas Tech at our first pick in round 3. San Diego ended up taking him, and he had a stellar year.

Anyways, both players had amazing years for the Bills and Chargers and were honored with being named to the all-rookie team.

Water under the bridge now, i'm just shocked that it's easier to point at Shanny vs. take credit for our own fault. The reason we didn't have better players on the interior OL is because McDaniels neglected the position in his first draft with four different picks inside the top 2 rounds, going HB, OLB, CB, Safety. If you believe in building inside, out as a principle in football, this draft should have made you want to puke.

broncosteven
01-22-2010, 12:40 PM
Gene would vote.

That is why Gene is a God.

WolfpackGuy
01-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Hoping someone hits the brakes before going over this cliff I see in the horizon.

bendog
01-22-2010, 01:01 PM
Imo, it's bad. But I'm not convinced that lil josh doesn't have what it takes to be a good offensive coach. His ego is wayyyyy too big. Bowlen was never hands on. In a way it's too bad he didn't hire a president of operations in the form of an older coach who doesnt' want to game plan and get to the office before 6am, but who knows what a pro scouting dept is supposed to look like, and who isn't freaking crazy enough to fire the goodmans right before the combines. But, it really only takes three really good drafts to turn a franchise around. Right now the broncos don't have the best talent, and they bled out their qb last year and are bleeding out a three time 100 recp WR now.

bronco610
01-22-2010, 01:21 PM
With the analogy Popps gave of if I have to make a decision as if I am playing poker at this time I fold. We have too weak of a hand.

My reasoning is I don't think we will rebuild the entire team phiosophy by the end of 2010 and be anywhere near a contender. I believe 2011 is a lock out year and a messy war between players and owners takes place.

We play again in 2012 but because of the lack on continuity we again have too many problems to fix. By this time I think Bowlen is tired of the mess and wants to sell the team or have someone else play decision maker who in turn whants their own man in as coach.

Popps
01-22-2010, 01:31 PM
Very simple, we added a slow, small CB and a slow TE with bad hands in the 2nd round. We traded to get both of them.

Now the locals on this board are pissed. .

To be fair, after a decade of horrific drafting, I'd say it's a bit early to call this draft a failure, just yet.

Moreno and Ayers were contributors this year. Both were effective when we were winning, and not so effective when we were losing.

We got solid STs contributions from Bruton/McBath, and both look like they have some game skills.

As for Smith and Quinn, it's way to early to make definitive judgments about what kind of picks they were.

I see 2 guys from this draft that will definitely be key role players for us. I see 3 guys who will definitely be STs/depth and potentially future starters.

I see a few wild cards that could land anywhere between starter and bust.


So, right now... this draft looks on par with most. We'll need much more time to know what we have. Just because you didn't like how these players arrived doesn't mean they'll wind up busts.


Ray Rice rushed for 450 yards in 2008. Good thing the Ravens didn't cut him, huh?

BroncoBuff
01-22-2010, 01:33 PM
Hoping someone hits the brakes before going over this cliff I see in the horizon.

That's the problem ... it wouldn't be fair to Josh to can him now, not nearly enough time has gone by.

BUT .... if Bowlen had any guts though, he'd immediately hire a savvy, experienced GM with some clout.

FYI - that's what I've been saying from Day One. Hate to say I told you so, but ....

Mr.Meanie
01-22-2010, 01:39 PM
Of course we don't have a full roster of draft picks at all since Mcdaniels shipped a 5th and 7th out for players of marginal contribution.

Actually we traded only a 5th - and it was for 2 depth/rotational players, that we actually ended up using regularly in the latter part of the season after a string of injuries...

gyldenlove
01-22-2010, 01:39 PM
To be fair, after a decade of horrific drafting, I'd say it's a bit early to call this draft a failure, just yet.

Moreno and Ayers were contributors this year. Both were effective when we were winning, and not so effective when we were losing.

We got solid STs contributions from Bruton/McBath, and both look like they have some game skills.

As for Smith and Quinn, it's way to early to make definitive judgments about what kind of picks they were.

I see 2 guys from this draft that will definitely be key role players for us. I see 3 guys who will definitely be STs/depth and potentially future starters.

I see a few wild cards that could land anywhere between starter and bust.


So, right now... this draft looks on par with most. We'll need much more time to know what we have. Just because you didn't like how these players arrived doesn't mean they'll wind up busts.


Ray Rice rushed for 450 yards in 2008. Good thing the Ravens didn't cut him, huh?

Rice had a 100 yard game, an average of more than 4 yards and only 1 fumble, all better than Moreno, but Moreno may still pan out he didn't look entirely lost despite his quite pedestrian output.

Moreno was a contributor, and it would frankly have been a disaster if he wasn't.

Ayers didn't contribute much, and needs to seriously improve in every facet of the game.

Mcbath showed glimpses, enough to be encouraging anyway.

Bruton was good on special teams, that is always positive.

But that isn't really enough when we used 5 picks in the top 2 rounds is it?

Right now this draft looks on par with all the misserable drafts we had prior to 06 - hopefully some serious growing up happens, but I am still doubtful. Hearing Josh proclaiming that the draft prep will be revamped this year sounds like an indictment of the results yielded last year to me.

Mr.Meanie
01-22-2010, 01:40 PM
That's the problem ... it wouldn't be fair to Josh to can him now, not nearly enough time has gone by.

BUT .... if Bowlen had any guts though, he'd immediately hire a savvy, experienced GM with some clout.

FYI - that's what I've been saying from Day One. Hate to say I told you so, but ....

So you told us, untold us, and now you tell us that you told us?

gyldenlove
01-22-2010, 01:43 PM
Actually we traded only a 5th - and it was for 2 depth/rotational players, that we actually ended up using regularly in the latter part of the season after a string of injuries...

Smith never played much after sitting out the first half of the season (when the line was playing well) and Hochstein didn't exactly make much of a difference.

bronco610
01-22-2010, 01:45 PM
To be fair, after a decade of horrific drafting, I'd say it's a bit early to call this draft a failure, just yet.

Moreno and Ayers were contributors this year. Both were effective when we were winning, and not so effective when we were losing.

We got solid STs contributions from Bruton/McBath, and both look like they have some game skills.

As for Smith and Quinn, it's way to early to make definitive judgments about what kind of picks they were.

I see 2 guys from this draft that will definitely be key role players for us. I see 3 guys who will definitely be STs/depth and potentially future starters.

I see a few wild cards that could land anywhere between starter and bust.


So, right now... this draft looks on par with most. We'll need much more time to know what we have. Just because you didn't like how these players arrived doesn't mean they'll wind up busts.


Ray Rice rushed for 450 yards in 2008. Good thing the Ravens didn't cut him, huh?

Okay Popps, give me your take on my post. #89

broncosteven
01-22-2010, 01:47 PM
To be fair, after a decade of horrific drafting, I'd say it's a bit early to call this draft a failure, just yet.

Moreno and Ayers were contributors this year. Both were effective when we were winning, and not so effective when we were losing.

We got solid STs contributions from Bruton/McBath, and both look like they have some game skills.

As for Smith and Quinn, it's way to early to make definitive judgments about what kind of picks they were.

I see 2 guys from this draft that will definitely be key role players for us. I see 3 guys who will definitely be STs/depth and potentially future starters.

I see a few wild cards that could land anywhere between starter and bust.


So, right now... this draft looks on par with most. We'll need much more time to know what we have. Just because you didn't like how these players arrived doesn't mean they'll wind up busts.


Ray Rice rushed for 450 yards in 2008. Good thing the Ravens didn't cut him, huh?

Ayers was a warm body filling out the roster.

Depending on who you get your stats from he had only 14 solo tackles the WHOLE year and a total of 19 total tackles. His lone big play of the whole season was a fumble recovery returned a short distance for a TD.

I remember watching him coming into view on TV running behind plays and watching guys going by.

I will give you Knowshon who should be better when 100%, McBath and Bruton but Ayers did not contribute much of anything.

bpc
01-22-2010, 02:03 PM
To be fair, after a decade of horrific drafting, I'd say it's a bit early to call this draft a failure, just yet.

Moreno and Ayers were contributors this year. Both were effective when we were winning, and not so effective when we were losing.

We got solid STs contributions from Bruton/McBath, and both look like they have some game skills.

As for Smith and Quinn, it's way to early to make definitive judgments about what kind of picks they were.

I see 2 guys from this draft that will definitely be key role players for us. I see 3 guys who will definitely be STs/depth and potentially future starters.

I see a few wild cards that could land anywhere between starter and bust.


So, right now... this draft looks on par with most. We'll need much more time to know what we have. Just because you didn't like how these players arrived doesn't mean they'll wind up busts.


Ray Rice rushed for 450 yards in 2008. Good thing the Ravens didn't cut him, huh?

Nobody is calling the class a bust. Then again it's common mis-conception to throw the offensive line's troubles (LACK OF STRENGTH< GRRRRRRRARAR) on Shanahan. The line gave up 11 or 12 sacks two years ago, and even made a cell phone salesman look adequate in the backfield. Last year they were a failure. Maybe McD should have spent more time diagnosing what the OL's problems would be in his system then other more notable places. Anyways, it's convenient for agenda pushers to place this situation at the feet of the previous coach when it is McD's own fault if we got pushed around on the OL. McDaniel had a full draft, multiple high round selections to bulk up the lines and he went anywhere but those positions.

I hope Moreno is a success, but let's not kid ourselves. Ray Rice was a much better prospect coming out of Rutgers. He was known as a finisher, a guy that compared to a a MJD in terms of size, bulk, power and speed. They also can block, run, and catch, only they are better at it.

Moreno was drafted at 12 because there wasn't a lot of HB talent in the draft last year, and McD reached for him. I would have said that about any team that drafted him as high as they did, because the questions about his talent are real.

bpc
01-22-2010, 02:07 PM
That's the problem ... it wouldn't be fair to Josh to can him now, not nearly enough time has gone by.

BUT .... if Bowlen had any guts though, he'd immediately hire a savvy, experienced GM with some clout.

FYI - that's what I've been saying from Day One. Hate to say I told you so, but ....

We couldn't. McDaniels is adjusted to walking all over that Xanders guy. He probably just grabs a sporting news and coffee for McDaniels in the morning, and that's about the full extent of his job.

If we ever brought in a proven GM to run the show, McDaniels would get pissed and start rolling around on the ground kicking and screaming because he'd want his ball back.

bombquixote
01-22-2010, 02:11 PM
We're the new Cleveland Browns. Forecast for the next few years: mediocre with a high chance of suck.

BroncoBuff
01-22-2010, 02:28 PM
So you told us, untold us, and now you tell us that you told us?

Never "un"-told you ... I always said that.

Bronx33
01-22-2010, 03:17 PM
Well i see this thread being dug up around game six next season..

DBroncos4life
01-22-2010, 03:24 PM
Well i see this thread being dug up around game six next season..

After a 6-0 start? Will I be forced to eat crow again this year after week six? Lord know how well that worked for the superfans last year.

bpc
01-22-2010, 03:26 PM
Maybe McD will wait until week 8 to start throwing his fists of fury after winning the regular season super bowl.

Rabb
01-22-2010, 03:31 PM
how many apply in this very thread...

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/955/internetgraphic1.jpg

bpc
01-22-2010, 03:52 PM
how many apply in this very thread...

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/955/internetgraphic1.jpg

That may have been one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Rabb
01-22-2010, 03:56 PM
BroncoWarrior has #10 all over him

uplink
01-23-2010, 07:10 PM
i thought the team would exceed expectations last offseason but right now things aren't looking good. Don't get the idea coaches and many players like working for McD except maybe the guys from the Pats.

watermock
01-23-2010, 08:29 PM
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i23/jeff_bennion/Cracked/guns.jpg.

errand
01-24-2010, 05:36 AM
We got 8-8 outta "the worst coach ever" when all the "experts" said we'd finish 5-11 at best. We did it running with a rookie head coach, implementing a new offense...and defense, a journeyman QB, a disgruntled #1 WR, a injury riddled OL, a rookie RB, Peyton Hillis on the bench, Mike Leach being replaced by Lonnie Paxton, and a drunk-ass owner...


....how you cannot believe progress is being made is beyond me.

Cito Pelon
01-24-2010, 08:21 AM
You should have put a mushy middle option. That would probably have garnered just as many votes as either of these two.

I'd be mushy middle. Losing at home to OAK & KC really colors my thinking negatively. Just have to wait and see what 2010 looks like.

Hulamau
01-25-2010, 02:53 AM
There aren't many coaches that have 5 picks in the first two rounds either....

As for this second part, wouldn't I then make sense to not trade future firsts when you aren't very well prepared for the draft? There is no way to defend trading a future first, especially for a rebuilding team. If this draft doesn't have a few starters in it, it is a complete bust. There are no good excuses for this. Shanahan never had near the ammo in a draft that McDaniels just had. The drafts are also the reason Shanahan isn't here. The comparisons ti his drafting don't seem that good to me.

Shanny had the mother load of FA in the first couple years of his regime .. and some of it unfair and illegal according to the NFL fines levied.

Perhaps the Alphonso decision was a bad one. But I suspect Moreno will look a lot better with a consistent power scheme and a stronger Oline all playing one system.

Ayers, McBath, Burton & McKinley ( assuming he comes back strong from the knee?) I expect will all make big strides this year as well Olsen and likely Baker too as an UDFA.

Alphonso is sure to be better as well but he'll have to make a big turn around to begin justifying the pick were it was. Lets see how he responds this training camp and beginning of the year before declaring that one a full on bust though.

This years draft/FA is a key for Josh and the teams fortunes ovdeteh next couple years.