PDA

View Full Version : Josh needs to understand what it means to BE a Denver Bronco


Pages : [1] 2 3

Taco John
01-20-2010, 02:23 AM
I'm going to take the long way to get to my point, so bear with me.

Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following:

-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

-As such Nolan's energy was effectively split between doing what McDaniels wants and doing what he (Nolan) thought was needed.

-The team goes on a 2-8 run

-Nolan starts whispering to his friends in search of a life preserver


Obviously, it was a mutual parting. Josh literally can't have anyone around who has a lot of preconceived ideas of their own about how the defense should be executed. He has a particular way he wants it done and he demands someone who will execute his way without resistance. Nolan was clearly not that guy. Pees probably is. Or not. Something didn't go right in New England - whatever that was, he's on the market now.

Looking forward, it's clear to me that Josh has a system that he believes is going to turn this club into a dynasty, and that he's going to be relentless in pursuing his vision to his exact details. The challenge that he's going to have is that he's so young that people like Nolan who have been around the block a few times are going to come with their experiences and react accordingly. In order for Josh to implement his system to his details, he's going to have to hire "blank slate" coaches that will be more prone to taking direction and then implementing that direction precisely. Otherwise, this is going to become a recurring issue - which I suspect it will. I have a hunch that we're going to go through a lot of coordinators and positional coaches, for better or worse. I just hope that the players become the source of stability to handle what looks might be a continuous cycle of instability.

This explains to me the entire weakness of the Belichick coaching tree and why so many bad apples fall off of it. Successful Belichick system coaches have to fit a certain type of personality profile - one where the coach is more comfortable taking direction than giving it. And once they get promoted to the job of a head coach, they're outside of their comfort zone because they are now the source of the direction, and it just doesn't come as natural to them. I look at Mangini and Weiss and that's exactly what I see: very bright guys who are not as comfortable and natural at being the source of team direction as they are in being a conduit of it. (They of course can do it - they're coaches. But I don't believe it's as natural to them)

But that's not what I see in Josh at all. I see a guy who is absolutely comfortable with giving that direction. He was a blank slate by virtue of being so young, and was probably eager as a beaver to do whatever Belichick wanted him to do to the exact details recognizing the tremendous opportunity the he was living. I can only imagine how stoked he must have been to have worked his way into that position. He seems to have soaked it all up, every last drop.

The bottom line for me as a fan is this: we have a brilliant coach here with a specific plan who is young and inexperienced, and may fatally be so in order to execute his plan. Young, inexperienced is one thing. But add inflexible to it, and it's not a recipe for locker-room harmony. Everyone can relate to the potential fatality that concept.

But all that said, Josh is not going to be young and inexperienced forever. I think that the guy is going to be a great coach in this league someday. Right now, he seems to be a work in progress - and I can accept that.

But there are things that I can't and wont accept. Since we as fans are invested in his development, I hope that he'll take some time this offseason to get familiar with the culture and history that come with this team, and understand what it means to BE a Denver Bronco. The losses at home, particularly to the Raiders and Chiefs, to me, reflect a team that was not emotionally invested in the outcome of that game in the same way that the fans are. Josh needs to get up to speed quickly on the historical subtexts that exists with these matchups, or he's going to have a difficult time keeping people "won over" as he cuts his teeth and builds his team.

Simply put: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home. Even if you've lost the entire locker room, and every last player on the team is planning to blaze a trail out of town the following offseason, The Denver Broncos coach has got to be able to get the team to muster up enough pride to protect our stadium, our fan base, our franchise from these losses. He needs to recognize that it absolutely means something that we were among the Raiders and the Chiefs only wins for their entire season.

If I could give Josh a few other tips:

--We don't cheer like wild men when we beat the Patriots because the Denver Broncos own the Patriots. They are just another W that we've come to expect throughout the years.

--Don't bother talking smack with Chargers players or their fans. The minute they go down in the standings, half of their fan base dries up and heads to the beach. Just go out and beat them. Or at least play them tough. For some reason, it's much easier to forgive a loss to the Chargers, though I wouldn't get too comfortable with that thought.

--To take an analogy from Star Wars, when Anakin Skywalker posthumously switched from the dark side to the light side, he removed the hood. This, of course, can be overlooked, but beating the Raiders and Chiefs at home becomes an absolute requirement then. See! Give and take.

What else should Josh McDaniels understand about BEING a Denver Bronco?

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:29 AM
Simply put: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home. Even if you've lost the entire locker room, and every last player on the team is planning to blaze a trail out of town the following offseason, The Denver Broncos coach has got to be able to get the team to muster up enough pride to protect our stadium from those losses. He needs to recognize that it absolutely means something that we were among their only wins for the entire season.


I think he's emphasized the level of importance of division games many times/enough.

How did Shanny get a pass for Oakland coming into Invesco and ripping us up?

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:39 AM
If I could give Josh a few other tips along these lines:

--We don't cheer like wild men when we beat the Patriots because the Denver Broncos own the Patriots. They are just another W that we've come to expect throughout the years.

--Don't bother talking smack with Chargers players or their fans. The minute they go down in the standings, half of their fan base dries up and heads to the beach. Just go out and beat them. Or at least play them tough. For some reason, it's much easier to forgive a loss to the Chargers, though I wouldn't get too comfortable with that thought.

--To take an analogy from Star Wars, when Anakin Skywalker posthumously switched from the dark side to the light side, he removed the hood. This, of course, can be overlooked, but beating the Raiders and Chiefs at home becomes an absolute requirement then. See! Give and take.

What else should Josh McDaniels understand about BEING a Denver Bronco?

First off - that fist pump ordeal was all within line. It's only being viewed down upon now at seasons end, but it was very relevant and acceptable at that time. People talk about it as if it's something he plans to do every time against the Pats. OT win - first match up against his mentor/previous team... held a 6 hour practice on that Friday to get things right... it was within the situation, HIS situation. How about you look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself as a fan if you're understanding HIS situation?

Where is it stated that the first 6 weeks was Nolan's ideas and then after the bye weeks was Josh's idea to change everything? Is there any actual evidence or proof of this?

What YOU and many others need to understand is this is a new chapter in the Broncos history book and it doesn't need to be written with the same words, in the same ink, in the same style, with the same setting, beginning, plot... as long as we have a similar ending is what matters. How about you let him write his story, and stop dwelling on what "it means to be a Denver Bronco." Because right now, what it means is having 1 playoff win in 10 years.

Get over yourself and move on - Josh is a Denver Bronco and he will be. This guy is putting in ALL his energy into the team, MORE than any player or any fan, and any coach - and you're telling HIM how to be a Denver Bronco? :spit:

Taco John
01-20-2010, 02:40 AM
I think he's emphasized the level of importance of division games many times/enough.

Division game? Eff division game. I'm not talking about divisions. I'm talking about the fabric of history. Your answer basically tells me that you were born in the late 80's or early 90's and don't appreciate yourself the history of these match-ups. I hate to be patronizing, but you grew up in a time when the Raiders were put in a cage for us to tease. They weren't always like that.

How did Shanny get a pass for Oakland coming into Invesco and ripping us up?

You wouldn't ask this question if you had any idea of Shanahan's lifetime record against Oakland as a head coach. It's kind of a silly question to ask, all things considered.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 02:42 AM
Get over yourself and move on - Josh is a Denver Bronco and he will be. This guy is putting in ALL his energy into the team, MORE than any player or any fan, and any coach - and you're telling HIM how to be a Denver Bronco? :spit:


Yes. I've been one much longer than he has, and will be here after he's long gone.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:48 AM
Oh, and while I was in Denver for the Pitts game, I heard some pretty spot on comments about Denver Broncos fans support - pathetic. How about you go out and and talk about how piss poor the home field advantage is now at Denver? That was pathetic on Monday night. I went to the Denver @ Charger game too - that stadium was roaring like a beast.

Ask ANYONE who went to the Pitts game and they'll tell you the Pitts - Denver fan ratio was not exactly something to be proud of. This is Monday night football, team coming off a tough loss in Baltimore and sitting at 6-1.

The stations on the radio were STILL talking sh1t about McDaniels and the Cutler situation - NO SUPPORT IN his own city... that's some **** ass fans. 1 playoff win in 10 years with Shanahan people - and you guys want to call Bowlen a gutless drunk?

Denver fans need to step their game up because it's pretty piss poor at this point like I said.

If you go check the Rams forums and talk to their fans about Spags and watch how they went through a 1-15 loss - they're giving full support. 1-15!!! McD himself said that every team can win in this league it's just the coach's responsibility to make it happen. I'm not sure if that's the culture you see everywhere else.

Whatever though - McD seems to be the guy on the end of wanting to prove haters wrong rather than being brought down by it... luckily for Denver fans because I can positively say right now, it is pretty sh1tty.

And that's not to knock on any Broncos fan that does give support throughout the year financially, with their time, positively, etc... as WE deserve a winning Broncos season.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 02:51 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans. That's crazy.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:53 AM
Yes. I've been one much longer than he has, and will be here after he's long gone.
You remind me of someone who think he has some sort of .. I can't think of that word... some sort of power because you've been a fan for longer than he has.. kind of like the people who get a college education and all of sudden believe they're better than everyone. I can't think of that word.

He's writing the Broncos history right now, and it's something fans need to accept and support instead of sitting in the past of John Elway.

You think Bulls fans are telling them they don't lose to the Jazz?

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:55 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans. That's crazy.

Really? Other than not supporting your team on a Monday night game to the defending Super Bowl champions after a tough loss the previous week? Or the weak home field advantage? how about you take a look here? It's probably minute/little sample of what it is like in the real world - but when I was in Denver listening to the radio - there sure were a GOOD amount of fans calling in still hating on McDaniels before the Pitts game.

Hosts said it themselves - PATHETIC.

I hope you were there in the parking lot with the tailgating before the Pitts game on Monday night.

You'd think you were in Pitts.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:56 AM
Don't get me wrong - there is support and blind support and blind support isn't good.

However, what's going on is blind hate/bias + hindsight.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 02:59 AM
You remind me of someone who think he has some sort of .. I can't think of that word... some sort of power because you've been a fan for longer than he has.. kind of like the people who get a college education and all of sudden believe they're better than everyone. I can't think of that word.

The word is "arrogant". Yes, I am an arrogant fan. Most people who are arrogant enough to post on an Internet message board dedicated to a particular topic 365 days a year have this personality trait. It goes with the territory.

Not suprisingly you've missed the entire point. It's not about "living in the past." IT'S ABOUT BEATING THE RAIDERS AND THE CHIEFS! Go 2-14, but BEAT THE RAIDERS AND THE CHIEFS AT HOME. If you don't you will be run out on a rail. The boos will cascade down like thunder from above.

Beat these two teams at home, and Broncos fans will be more forgiving. The younger ones might get more restless. But the ones whose experience as Broncos fans were shaped through the 70's and 80's will find more reasons to defend you.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 02:59 AM
Division game? Eff division game. I'm not talking about divisions. I'm talking about the fabric of history. Your answer basically tells me that you were born in the late 80's or early 90's and don't appreciate yourself the history of these match-ups. I hate to be patronizing, but you grew up in a time when the Raiders were put in a cage for us to tease. They weren't always like that.



You wouldn't ask this question if you had any idea of Shanahan's lifetime record against Oakland as a head coach. It's kind of a silly question to ask, all things considered.

You're right - was born in the late 80's. I understand where you like to embrace the history, I UNDERSTAND, that is why I made the point of having the same ENDING.

I do have an idea - I mean it is televised and emphasized by all the major networks 10000 through out the game. But does he get a pass when the game potentially meant a playoff spot?

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:02 AM
The word is arrogant fan. Yes, I am an arrogant fan. Most people who are arrogant enough to post on an Internet message board dedicated to a particular topic 365 days a year have this personality trait. It goes with the territory.

Not suprisingly you've missed the entire point. It's not about "living in the past." IT'S ABOUT BEATING THE RAIDERS AND THE CHIEFS! Go 4-12, but BEAT THE RAIDERS AND THE CHIEFS. If you don't you will be run out on a rail. The boos will cascade down like thunder from above.

It's not arrogant - it's another word. It's pissing me off and I'm looking for it.

I understand where you are coming from believe me - and he knows how important it is.

It IS unacceptable to see what happen -HAPPEN.

He was able to go into KC in December and smash on them like a black guy on a little asian girl. Something not exactly in Shanny's repituar. Like I said, let him write his chapter(s).

What is that word... it's like you/people feel like you have power/credibility over someone because of a certain factor (like education).

Taco John
01-20-2010, 03:04 AM
I understand where you are coming from believe me - and he knows how important it is.


No he doesn't. Not the way his teams lost. No he absolutely doesn't.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 03:05 AM
What is that word... it's like you/people feel like you have power/credibility over someone because of a certain factor (like education).


Brains. :)

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:07 AM
Brains. :)

No - because the whole idea is they shouldn't.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:08 AM
No he doesn't. Not the way his teams lost. No he absolutely doesn't.

With the playoffs on the line - I think that alone showed how important it was lol. Division games are always tough the second time around (just check history). That Raider game was in the bag - couldn't score on the 1 or stop Russell coming cold off the bench...

Taco John
01-20-2010, 03:09 AM
That last one is my story and I'm sticking to it.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:28 AM
The word is, entitlement.

OBF1
01-20-2010, 03:28 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans. That's crazy.

If you are the long time fan that you claim you are, You would never say that. Denver used to have the best fans around period. Loud when needed, cheered wildly whether or not we were sub .500 or 12-2. Denver fans were truely the 12th man during many games that I attended from 1977 thru 1997... Teams were afraid to visit Mile High, we made that place shake like a California earthquake and the players fed off of us.

Being a season ticket holder used to be a status symbol like driving a Ferrari. A man would get divorced, lose his home, 1/2 of what he worked his entire life for but claim victory to all his friends because he got the Bronco season tickets.

Now a days you have a bunch of god damn prima donnas filling up half the stadium, busy talking on their cell phones and telling fans cheering out of their Bronco loving minds to sit down and be quiet or they will call security.... Tell me TJ, How in the living hell is this, "absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans"?

Issac, I am calling bull shiat to you statement.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:35 AM
Now a days you have a bunch of god damn prima donnas filling up half the stadium, busy talking on their cell phones and telling fans cheering out of their Bronco loving minds to sit down and be quiet or they will call security.... Tell me TJ, How in the living hell is this, "absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans"?

Issac, I am calling bull shiat to you statement.

Haha!

During the Steelers @ Broncos game I was standing up (I wanted to stand, I had energy and wanted to support the team) and cheering ... I didn't realize I was the only one in the section standing up and cheering but some guy behind me told me to sit down and gave me a dirty look like I was doing something wrong?

The whole section was sitting down, so I respected what he said however I was so focused that I really didn't think about it at the time... if that were any other case he would have been looking stupid in front of his family/friends, by me.

extralife
01-20-2010, 03:39 AM
What is that word... it's like you/people feel like you have power/credibility over someone because of a certain factor (like education).

hate to break it to you twinkle toes, but education kind of does give you "power/credibility over someone."

the irony of your ragging on education while admitting to being unable to articulate your point is giving me a bit of a smile over here.

you're probably looking for "entitlement" (or entitled, or whatever), by the way.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 03:47 AM
If you are the long time fan that you claim you are, You would never say that. Denver used to have the best fans around period. Loud when needed, cheered wildly whether or not we were sub .500 or 12-2. Denver fans were truely the 12th man during many games that I attended from 1977 thru 1997... Teams were afraid to visit Mile High, we made that place shake like a California earthquake and the players fed off of us.

Being a season ticket holder used to be a status symbol like driving a Ferrari. A man would get divorced, lose his home, 1/2 of what he worked his entire life for but claim victory to all his friends because he got the Bronco season tickets.

Now a days you have a bunch of god damn prima donnas filling up half the stadium, busy talking on their cell phones and telling fans cheering out of their Bronco loving minds to sit down and be quiet or they will call security.... Tell me TJ, How in the living hell is this, "absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans"?

Issac, I am calling bull shiat to you statement.



We didn't lose to the Raiders and Chiefs at home because of the fans.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:49 AM
hate to break it to you twinkle toes, but education kind of does give you "power/credibility over someone."

the irony of your ragging on education while admitting to being unable to articulate your point is giving me a bit of a smile over here.

you're probably looking for "entitlement" (or entitled, or whatever), by the way.

Ah, you must have a college degree? Because only people who spent their time in college would come out of the wood works to make a point like this.

I already said the word - and I'm in college with a 3.9 - studying Business Economics... at a University not a Junior college... and I had a glitch in my memory. But this is the internet, I could be lying. LOL

In the real world - education only does to the middle class. Having an education doesn't actually give you power over someone - probably credibility in some cases, but not larger ones. Like working for someone?

Maybe in smaller cities/towns... but when you're with the big boys - education doesn't mean a thing. I suggest you go take a look at forbes top 100 (or is 400?) list, and check the average net worth of those with a college degree and those without one. It's not about the degree or what you're studying for that matter, and this is what college graduates completely miss.

Academic entitlement... keep smiling buddy.

ColoradoDarin
01-20-2010, 03:55 AM
The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

Your whole argument rests on this, is there any proof of these 2 statements?

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 03:55 AM
Oh, and I think I DID articulate my point... weren't you able to understand what I said and comment on it AND come up with the word I was reaching for?

Yet, you're telling me I was unable to articulate my point?

Now THAT is irony.

Drek
01-20-2010, 04:08 AM
Taco, you're a ****ing idiot who fabricates bull**** to fit your agenda.

How about you source this bull****:
I'm going to take the long way to get to my point, so bear with me.

Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following:

-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

-As such Nolan's energy was effectively split between doing what McDaniels wants and doing what he (Nolan) thought was needed.

-The team goes on a 2-8 run

-Nolan starts whispering to his friends in search of a life preserver
And why didn't you flip out over Shanahan getting stomped by Oakland last year, if you're going to say things like this about McDaniels:
Simply put: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home. Even if you've lost the entire locker room, and every last player on the team is planning to blaze a trail out of town the following offseason, The Denver Broncos coach has got to be able to get the team to muster up enough pride to protect our stadium, our fan base, our franchise from these losses. He needs to recognize that it absolutely means something that we were among the Raiders and the Chiefs only wins for their entire season.Hell, it took a trick by Shanahan to avoid losing at home to Oakland in '07 as well as the beating we took in '08. And when did Shanahan ever deliver that road win in KC? Isn't that just as important? Because we where among their very few wins in '08 as well, just in KC.

--Don't bother talking smack with Chargers players or their fans. The minute they go down in the standings, half of their fan base dries up and heads to the beach. Just go out and beat them. Or at least play them tough. For some reason, it's much easier to forgive a loss to the Chargers, though I wouldn't get too comfortable with that thought.Didn't Jay Cutler do exactly that? Without having actually beaten the Chargers to that point in his career either. And this whole board defended him for it. When McDaniels makes a few pre-game comments after delivering a huge win in San Diego a few weeks before its seen in an entirely different light though.

Admit it TJ, you have a double standard on all things McDaniels. Until he wins a championship you'll make these same chicken little whiny b**** threads.

Enjoy managing this cesspool you claim is a football discussion board, jackass.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 04:13 AM
Taco, you're a ****ing idiot who fabricates bull**** to fit your agenda.

How about you source this bull****:
And why didn't you flip out over Shanahan getting stomped by Oakland last year, if you're going to say things like this about McDaniels:
Hell, it took a trick by Shanahan to avoid losing at home to Oakland in '07 as well as the beating we took in '08. And when did Shanahan ever deliver that road win in KC? Isn't that just as important? Because we where among their very few wins in '08 as well, just in KC.

Didn't Jay Cutler do exactly that? Without having actually beaten the Chargers to that point in his career either. And this whole board defended him for it. When McDaniels makes a few pre-game comments after delivering a huge win in San Diego a few weeks before its seen in an entirely different light though.

Admit it TJ, you have a double standard on all things McDaniels. Until he wins a championship you'll make these same chicken little whiny b**** threads.

Enjoy managing this cesspool you claim is a football discussion board, jackass.

:spit:

DrFate
01-20-2010, 04:52 AM
I still don't understand the passionate, maniacal support for this guy. Every time anyone even hints that McDaniels isn't up to the challenge, a flock of poeple appear and start hurling stones.

Are you guys related or something? What has he done to earn this level of blind support?

McDaniels says 'no one is bigger than the team'. But apparently that isn't true - because HE is bigger than the team (in his own eyes). It isn't about Nolan. Or Marshall. Or Scheffler. Or Cutler. Or the Goodmans. Individually, each incident tells us something. Collectively, they indicate (to me) an out of control ego hell bent on turning this franchise into the Denver Joshes.

ColoradoDarin
01-20-2010, 04:59 AM
I still don't understand the passionate, maniacal support for this guy. Every time anyone even hints that McDaniels isn't up to the challenge, a flock of poeple appear and start hurling stones.

Are you guys related or something? What has he done to earn this level of blind support?

McDaniels says 'no one is bigger than the team'. But apparently that isn't true - because HE is bigger than the team (in his own eyes). It isn't about Nolan. Or Marshall. Or Scheffler. Or Cutler. Or the Goodmans. Individually, each incident tells us something. Collectively, they indicate (to me) an out of control ego hell bent on turning this franchise into the Denver Joshes.

Just speaking for myself, McDaniels is not above criticism, but the stupid stuff like the original post just begs to be flamed. Do you really stand behind a post like this? There is plenty for McDaniels to work on, but come on this is ridiculous.

The MVPlaya
01-20-2010, 05:08 AM
Yes - it's orangemane that makes it seem like the flock comes out - however it's gotten to the point where it's not even about McDaniels it's about supporting the Denver Broncos.

Collectively - it's pretty simple to comprehend. Each situation had it's fair share and most situations were here while Shanny was here and Shanny handles in a softer way. It's a change in culture - are you shocked?

It would be blind support if there was nothing to back it up - but in fact there is. There is no BLIND support when a coach hasn't exactly been given a chance to deliver and coach a couple seasons. Add to the fact he has logic/schematic/philosophy behind everything he does?

But it's ok - if you want to label me as being passionate/maniacal support then so be it - I don't mind ... I mean he IS the coach of the Denver Broncos.

DrFate
01-20-2010, 05:09 AM
Just speaking for myself, McDaniels is not above criticism, but the stupid stuff like the original post just begs to be flamed. Do you really stand behind a post like this? There is plenty for McDaniels to work on, but come on this is ridiculous.

I won't speak for Taco, I will let him do that.

I'm just puzzled by the passionate loyalty for this guy by some Maners. You even hint at a criticism and they swarm like locusts. What has he done to deserve this kind of following?

DrFate
01-20-2010, 05:16 AM
Yes - it's orangemane that makes it seem like the flock comes out - however it's gotten to the point where it's not even about McDaniels it's about supporting the Denver Broncos..

McDaniels ISN'T the Broncos. I do support the Broncos. I have for 24 years. I don't support McDaniels. I don't think McDaniels is driving this team in the right direction.

Do Raider fans have to support Al Davis because they support the Raiders? Or can they continue to pray he will 'go away' because he does far more harm than good?

It would be blind support if there was nothing to back it up - but in fact there is. There is no BLIND support when a coach hasn't exactly been given a chance to deliver and coach a couple seasons. Add to the fact he has logic/schematic/philosophy behind everything he does?

But it's ok - if you want to label me as being passionate/maniacal support then so be it - I don't mind ... I mean he IS the coach of the Denver Broncos.

First you say 'it would be blind support if there was nothing to back it up - but in fact there is' - then you say 'the coach ... hasn't been given a chance to deliver...'

Which is it? Has he done something to 'back it up' or has he not 'been given a chance'? If he has done something to back it up - can you identify it? Because I cannot...

ColoradoDarin
01-20-2010, 05:17 AM
I won't speak for Taco, I will let him do that.

I'm just puzzled by the passionate loyalty for this guy by some Maners. You even hint at a criticism and they swarm like locusts. What has he done to deserve this kind of following?

Probably because he's currently the coach of the Denver Broncos.

That alone should be enough for most every thing. He should get the benefit of the doubt. I think part of it was that he was never allowed to have the benefit of the doubt with some to begin with (either him being a Patriot previously, or the Cutler situation) and so we have something set up from the beginning, right or wrong, that some will push back because of all that was thrown at him. Just a guess.

Bronco_Beerslug
01-20-2010, 05:24 AM
Yes. I've been one much longer than he has, and will be here after he's long gone.Wow! That was really a reach statement!

I'm pretty sure McDaniel's already understands "what it means to be a Denver Bronco" and probably pretty high on the list is never worry about what the minions on message boards are beating their chests about.

barryr
01-20-2010, 05:44 AM
Hmm, a coach that wants things done his way. Yes, that is very unusual, there's only 32 head coaches that want it that way too.

Yes, I'm sure after a 6-0 start, McDaniels thought to himself, "you know, we're winning too much, we need to scale back and start losing so fans start wanting me fired, so I'll screw with what's working." Yeah, that makes sense.

ColoradoDarin
01-20-2010, 05:47 AM
My favorite part is where Taco sets himself up as final arbiter of what it means to be a Denver Bronco.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 06:01 AM
Your whole argument rests on this, is there any proof of these 2 statements?

He's been asked about this a few times now without a response. Which likely means he's full of shiz. There is no foundation for this.

fontaine
01-20-2010, 06:02 AM
I don't care if it's McDaniels, Nolan, Pees, or whoever.

All I care about is getting the most out of the drafts (including last year) because all our problems from the trenches to staying competitive to beating division rivals at home can be fixed if we draft well like the perennial playoff teams.

If McDaniels can do that in his first three years here and win: Great!

If he can't? Then he can f uck off and join the sh*theap full of other young coaches that couldn't get it done.

Basically I give him the deal I saw with Shanahan in 2006. I gave Shanahan three years to deliver and yes he drafted extremely well for offense but failed to win and fix the DL. So I can't feel too bad he was shown the door.

Same goes for McDaniels. He gets three years or until his contract expires in 2011.

jhns
01-20-2010, 06:05 AM
The Broncos shouldn't be expected to beat the Chiefs and Raiders at home! What are you thinking? You just think you are better than everyone!

LOL

For real, this place cracks me up.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 06:05 AM
If you are the long time fan that you claim you are, You would never say that.

Very true. Not sure if he ever lived in Denver but if he had he would probably understand better. My primary explanation for the "decline" in the quality of Denver Broncos fandom is that Denver is still a "new", growing city that has had a lot of people come and go. So the city has a lot of transplants and has lost a lot of natives. This contrasts particularly with the bigger, northeastern cities where the populations stay a lot more constant.

jhns
01-20-2010, 06:17 AM
Hmm, a coach that wants things done his way. Yes, that is very unusual, there's only 32 head coaches that want it that way too.

Yes, I'm sure after a 6-0 start, McDaniels thought to himself, "you know, we're winning too much, we need to scale back and start losing so fans start wanting me fired, so I'll screw with what's working." Yeah, that makes sense.

I asked this in another thread but I will repost it like you keep reposting this.

Name a single successful coach that has full control of everything AND calls his own offensive(or defensive) plays. The fact that there are 0 of these shows that your post is worthless.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 06:34 AM
Name a single successful coach that has full control of everything AND calls his own offensive(or defensive) plays.

I highly doubt that McD wants "full control of everything" and will call all the plays on both sides of the ball. What I think he does want is for "his" systems/schemes, or at least elements of them, to be employed on both sides of the ball to at least a certain extent. So if Pees becomes the DC, for example, I expect that he'll run the type of defense that McD wants run. McD will certainly have involvement and input but he won't "run" it. Pees will. And I think this is probably the case with many/most coaches.

jhns
01-20-2010, 06:40 AM
I highly doubt that McD wants "full control of everything" and will call all the plays on both sides of the ball. What I think he does want is for "his" systems/schemes, or at least elements of them, to be employed on both sides of the ball to at least a certain extent. So if Pees becomes the DC, for example, I expect that he'll run the type of defense that McD wants run. McD will certainly have involvement and input but he won't "run" it. Pees will. And I think this is probably the case with many/most coaches.

He has full control and calls his own offense. I just added the defense because I would accept a response of a head coach in full control that calls their own defense. Obviously, there are no coaches that call both....

This is not a successful way of doing things in todays NFL. We screwed up not getting a GM. We didn't learn after Shanahan. This is the definition of being either stupid or crazy. After reading these forums, I would say that fits Denver fans. I guess that makes it OK for the team.

scorpio
01-20-2010, 06:42 AM
Taco, you're a ****ing idiot who fabricates bull**** to fit your agenda.

How about you source this bull****:
And why didn't you flip out over Shanahan getting stomped by Oakland last year, if you're going to say things like this about McDaniels:
Hell, it took a trick by Shanahan to avoid losing at home to Oakland in '07 as well as the beating we took in '08. And when did Shanahan ever deliver that road win in KC? Isn't that just as important? Because we where among their very few wins in '08 as well, just in KC.

Didn't Jay Cutler do exactly that? Without having actually beaten the Chargers to that point in his career either. And this whole board defended him for it. When McDaniels makes a few pre-game comments after delivering a huge win in San Diego a few weeks before its seen in an entirely different light though.

Admit it TJ, you have a double standard on all things McDaniels. Until he wins a championship you'll make these same chicken little whiny b**** threads.

Enjoy managing this cesspool you claim is a football discussion board, jackass.

:~ohyah!:

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 06:46 AM
I'm going to take the long way to get to my point, so bear with me.

Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following:

-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

-As such Nolan's energy was effectively split between doing what McDaniels wants and doing what he (Nolan) thought was needed.

-The team goes on a 2-8 run

-Nolan starts whispering to his friends in search of a life preserver


Obviously, it was a mutual parting. Josh literally can't have anyone around who has a lot of preconceived ideas of their own about how the defense should be executed. He has a particular way he wants it done and he demands someone who will execute his way without resistance. Nolan was clearly not that guy. Pees probably is. Or not. Something didn't go right in New England - whatever that was, he's on the market now.

Looking forward, it's clear to me that Josh has a system that he believes is going to turn this club into a dynasty, and that he's going to be relentless in pursuing his vision to his exact details. The challenge that he's going to have is that he's so young that people like Nolan who have been around the block a few times are going to come with their experiences and react accordingly. In order for Josh to implement his system to his details, he's going to have to hire "blank slate" coaches that will be more prone to taking direction and then implementing that direction precisely. Otherwise, this is going to become a recurring issue - which I suspect it will. I have a hunch that we're going to go through a lot of coordinators and positional coaches, for better or worse. I just hope that the players become the source of stability to handle what looks might be a continuous cycle of instability.

This explains to me the entire weakness of the Belichick coaching tree and why so many bad apples fall off of it. Successful Belichick system coaches have to fit a certain type of personality profile - one where the coach is more comfortable taking direction than giving it. And once they get promoted to the job of a head coach, they're outside of their comfort zone because they are now the source of the direction, and it just doesn't come as natural to them. I look at Mangini and Weiss and that's exactly what I see: very bright guys who are not as comfortable and natural at being the source of team direction as they are in being a conduit of it. (They of course can do it - they're coaches. But I don't believe it's as natural to them)

But that's not what I see in Josh at all. I see a guy who is absolutely comfortable with giving that direction. He was a blank slate by virtue of being so young, and was probably eager as a beaver to do whatever Belichick wanted him to do to the exact details recognizing the tremendous opportunity the he was living. I can only imagine how stoked he must have been to have worked his way into that position. He seems to have soaked it all up, every last drop.

The bottom line for me as a fan is this: we have a brilliant coach here with a specific plan who is young and inexperienced, and may fatally be so in order to execute his plan. Young, inexperienced is one thing. But add inflexible to it, and it's not a recipe for locker-room harmony. Everyone can relate to the potential fatality that concept.

But all that said, Josh is not going to be young and inexperienced forever. I think that the guy is going to be a great coach in this league someday. Right now, he seems to be a work in progress - and I can accept that.

But there are things that I can't and wont accept. Since we as fans are invested in his development, I hope that he'll take some time this offseason to get familiar with the culture and history that come with this team, and understand what it means to BE a Denver Bronco. The losses at home, particularly to the Raiders and Chiefs, to me, reflect a team that was not emotionally invested in the outcome of that game in the same way that the fans are. Josh needs to get up to speed quickly on the historical subtexts that exists with these matchups, or he's going to have a difficult time keeping people "won over" as he cuts his teeth and builds his team.

Simply put: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home. Even if you've lost the entire locker room, and every last player on the team is planning to blaze a trail out of town the following offseason, The Denver Broncos coach has got to be able to get the team to muster up enough pride to protect our stadium, our fan base, our franchise from these losses. He needs to recognize that it absolutely means something that we were among the Raiders and the Chiefs only wins for their entire season.

If I could give Josh a few other tips:

--We don't cheer like wild men when we beat the Patriots because the Denver Broncos own the Patriots. They are just another W that we've come to expect throughout the years.

--Don't bother talking smack with Chargers players or their fans. The minute they go down in the standings, half of their fan base dries up and heads to the beach. Just go out and beat them. Or at least play them tough. For some reason, it's much easier to forgive a loss to the Chargers, though I wouldn't get too comfortable with that thought.

--To take an analogy from Star Wars, when Anakin Skywalker posthumously switched from the dark side to the light side, he removed the hood. This, of course, can be overlooked, but beating the Raiders and Chiefs at home becomes an absolute requirement then. See! Give and take.

What else should Josh McDaniels understand about BEING a Denver Bronco?

Great post.
McD exhibits some of the same "learning curve" flaws I did when I started managing projects. Although my transition was more "radical" than his, I also started out by just "grabbing the reigns" and taking complete control of the wagon. It didn't take long for me to realize that success and harmony go hand in hand.
Being able to listen and trusting others is key to a successful "partnership". Two great minds will always do better than one and harvesting the knowledge of others and sharing yours with thems benefits everyone.

AND MOST IMPORTANT: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home.^5

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 06:48 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans. That's crazy.

I "respectfully" ****ING DISAGREE!

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 06:51 AM
If you are the long time fan that you claim you are, You would never say that. Denver used to have the best fans around period. Loud when needed, cheered wildly whether or not we were sub .500 or 12-2. Denver fans were truely the 12th man during many games that I attended from 1977 thru 1997... Teams were afraid to visit Mile High, we made that place shake like a California earthquake and the players fed off of us.

Being a season ticket holder used to be a status symbol like driving a Ferrari. A man would get divorced, lose his home, 1/2 of what he worked his entire life for but claim victory to all his friends because he got the Bronco season tickets.

Now a days you have a bunch of god damn prima donnas filling up half the stadium, busy talking on their cell phones and telling fans cheering out of their Bronco loving minds to sit down and be quiet or they will call security.... Tell me TJ, How in the living hell is this, "absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans"?

Issac, I am calling bull shiat to you statement.


REP!!!!

You can pry my gun from my cold dead hands, but you'll never get my tickets!:thumbsup:

mr007
01-20-2010, 06:53 AM
I "respectfully" ****ING DISAGREE!

You should see some fans from other stadiums then. Bronco fans are excellent fans, regardless of how critical they are of their team.

521 1N5
01-20-2010, 06:53 AM
I wish the country was as passionate as running Obama out of office as y'all are of running McD out of town. Wonder who our next coach will be? Maybe Marty!!! He's very traditional, you guys should love it!

mr007
01-20-2010, 06:57 AM
Oh, and while I was in Denver for the Pitts game, I heard some pretty spot on comments about Denver Broncos fans support - pathetic. How about you go out and and talk about how piss poor the home field advantage is now at Denver? That was pathetic on Monday night. I went to the Denver @ Charger game too - that stadium was roaring like a beast.

Ask ANYONE who went to the Pitts game and they'll tell you the Pitts - Denver fan ratio was not exactly something to be proud of. This is Monday night football, team coming off a tough loss in Baltimore and sitting at 6-1.

The stations on the radio were STILL talking sh1t about McDaniels and the Cutler situation - NO SUPPORT IN his own city... that's some **** ass fans. 1 playoff win in 10 years with Shanahan people - and you guys want to call Bowlen a gutless drunk?

Denver fans need to step their game up because it's pretty piss poor at this point like I said.

If you go check the Rams forums and talk to their fans about Spags and watch how they went through a 1-15 loss - they're giving full support. 1-15!!! McD himself said that every team can win in this league it's just the coach's responsibility to make it happen. I'm not sure if that's the culture you see everywhere else.

Whatever though - McD seems to be the guy on the end of wanting to prove haters wrong rather than being brought down by it... luckily for Denver fans because I can positively say right now, it is pretty sh1tty.

And that's not to knock on any Broncos fan that does give support throughout the year financially, with their time, positively, etc... as WE deserve a winning Broncos season.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that you're an idiot.

He has plenty of support in Denver, with that support comes many people who will question and be critical of his decisions. Not everyone wears rose colored glasses. While some fans liked the Cutler trade, others were rightfully pissed based on their perceived thoughts of where the team was headed.

If you were at the same Denver@Charger game I was in San Diego, there were plenty of DENVER fans lighting that stadium up.

Did you ever think about how many tickets are purchased outside of the local fan base? Did you ever think about the fact that Denver is a great city to travel to during the snow season where you can catch a game and hit up the mountains? There's reasons you will see many fans from other teams in our stadiums and it has absolutely nothing to do with the loyalty or dedication of the local fan base.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 06:57 AM
I won't speak for Taco, I will let him do that.

I'm just puzzled by the passionate loyalty for this guy by some Maners. You even hint at a criticism and they swarm like locusts. What has he done to deserve this kind of following?

That's just not true. Not at all. I think everyone on this board, at one point or another, has criticized McDaniels and how he's handled one thing or another. I certainly wasn't happy to hear about Nolan, but more facts are still coming out, so jumping on the "HE'S NAPOLEON!" train seems a bit excessive to me.

/shrug

The unfair criticisms, the over-the-top evaluations, and the double standard for McD when compared to recent seasons under Shanahan are what make people bridle at some of these accusations.

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:00 AM
The unfair criticisms, the over-the-top evaluations, and the double standard for McD when compared to recent seasons under Shanahan are what make people bridle at some of these accusations.

I love this one. You do realize Shanhan got fired for what he did the last few years, right? Why would people be excited to see that stuff repeated. I have never understood this argument.

mr007
01-20-2010, 07:02 AM
Also, as to McD being hell bent on proving the "haters" wrong, that's all good and well, but he can't do it all alone.

It still baffles me that he got rid of the Goodmans right before the draft, especially since none of his draft picks last year made any sort of substantial impact, but all is forgiven when you start seeing results.

Until then, FANS have the right to be as critical as they want about his decision making as we ALL want to see the team succeed.

scorpio
01-20-2010, 07:02 AM
There are a lot of people on this board who would gladly suffer through a decade of 8-8 seasons if it meant Mike never left and they could still hang their hat on his superbowl wins.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 07:02 AM
I love this one. You do realize Shanhan got fired for what he did the last few years, right? Why would people be excited to see that stuff repeated. I have never understood this argument.

Yes, I do realize that. You do realize that we didn't fire Shanahan after one 7-9 or 8-8 campaign, don't you?

http://komplexify.com/images/2009/Invalid1.jpg

mr007
01-20-2010, 07:03 AM
That's just not true. Not at all. I think everyone on this board, at one point or another, has criticized McDaniels and how he's handled one thing or another. I certainly wasn't happy to hear about Nolan, but more facts are still coming out, so jumping on the "HE'S NAPOLEON!" train seems a bit excessive to me.

/shrug

The unfair criticisms, the over-the-top evaluations, and the double standard for McD when compared to recent seasons under Shanahan are what make people bridle at some of these accusations.

Gimme a ****ing break. Shanahan has been thrown under the bus many times for his retarded play calling at times, several horrible draft selections (moving up to take Moss), incapability to get a good D coordinator and personnel in general, etc.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 07:04 AM
Gimme a ****ing break. Shanahan has been thrown under the bus many times for his retarded play calling at times, several horrible draft selections (moving up to take Moss), incapability to get a good D coordinator and personnel in general, etc.

Being thrown under the bus is different from demanding his job before he coaches a single game.

Popcorn Sutton
01-20-2010, 07:04 AM
I love this one. You do realize Shanhan got fired for what he did the last few years, right? Why would people be excited to see that stuff repeated. I have never understood this argument.

Exactly. You wanted to fire him after a few weeks.

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:06 AM
Yes, I do realize that. You do realize that we didn't fire Shanahan after one 7-9 or 8-8 campaign, don't you?


I'm sorry, I must have missed the part that I said he needs fired for an 8-8 season. If he is doing what Shanahan did when he failed, why would we like that?

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:07 AM
Exactly. You wanted to fire him after a few weeks.

Naw, he was around for at least a month before showing he has no idea how to handle players. I get it though. You guys don't think that is important. I do.

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:09 AM
Aww, po wittle McD gets picked on by the mean ol Bronco fans.

mr007
01-20-2010, 07:09 AM
Being thrown under the bus is different from demanding his job before he coaches a single game.

I'm sorry, I must have been reading a different quote from you where you said he's getting a double standard based on criticism.... my bad.

I'm not sure how many were demanding his job before he coached a game, but I'm sure the FO shake-up after a couple of really good drafts, combined with the offensive turnover would get plenty of criticism REGARDLESS of who came in here.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 07:10 AM
Naw, he was around for at least a month before showing he has no idea how to handle players. I get it though. You guys don't think that is important. I do.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/Sb0EnzVbWxI/AAAAAAAABfE/56ohAhNFK74/s400/straw+man.jpg



:welcome:

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:14 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/Sb0EnzVbWxI/AAAAAAAABfE/56ohAhNFK74/s400/straw+man.jpg



:welcome:

Well yeah, it doesn't address your own because I was talking to the guy I quoted.

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 07:14 AM
We didn't lose to the Raiders and Chiefs at home because of the fans.

HMMMM. You are correct. The fans weren't on the field, but he home field advantage was once again on vacation in the Carribean.:wiggle:

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 07:15 AM
Oh, and while I was in Denver for the Pitts game, I heard some pretty spot on comments about Denver Broncos fans support - pathetic. How about you go out and and talk about how piss poor the home field advantage is now at Denver? That was pathetic on Monday night. I went to the Denver @ Charger game too - that stadium was roaring like a beast.

Ask ANYONE who went to the Pitts game and they'll tell you the Pitts - Denver fan ratio was not exactly something to be proud of. This is Monday night football, team coming off a tough loss in Baltimore and sitting at 6-1.

The stations on the radio were STILL talking sh1t about McDaniels and the Cutler situation - NO SUPPORT IN his own city... that's some **** ass fans. 1 playoff win in 10 years with Shanahan people - and you guys want to call Bowlen a gutless drunk?

Denver fans need to step their game up because it's pretty piss poor at this point like I said.

If you go check the Rams forums and talk to their fans about Spags and watch how they went through a 1-15 loss - they're giving full support. 1-15!!! McD himself said that every team can win in this league it's just the coach's responsibility to make it happen. I'm not sure if that's the culture you see everywhere else.

Whatever though - McD seems to be the guy on the end of wanting to prove haters wrong rather than being brought down by it... luckily for Denver fans because I can positively say right now, it is pretty sh1tty.

And that's not to knock on any Broncos fan that does give support throughout the year financially, with their time, positively, etc... as WE deserve a winning Broncos season.

BINGO! If this board represents Bronco nation then the fan base sucks and has deteriorated from the time I lived in Colorado.

Broncomutt
01-20-2010, 07:15 AM
The head coach even admitted he still considered himself a Patriot when he said "WE own you". The key word being WE. Later he clarified that when he said WE, he meant himself and the Patriots. His own words folks, Broncomutt didn't make that up.

I wonder how his own players felt about:

A) Head coach motivating opposing players during warmups?
B) Backing his smack talk up by citing a different team? (that is so weak)

Blueflame, I owe you an apology. :peace:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 07:16 AM
Well yeah, it doesn't address your own because I was talking to the guy I quoted.

Yep, I understand that. You didn't address his argument either.

You made up a point that had nothing to do with anything (the "you guys don't think it's important to relate to players!" hilarity), making your argument a strawman, and completely invalid.

Again, good try, though.

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 07:17 AM
You should see some fans from other stadiums then. Bronco fans are excellent fans, regardless of how critical they are of their team.

I don't really give a flying **** about other fans. I have seen the change at Mile High, and it isn't a hallucination.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 07:19 AM
I don't really give a flying **** about other fans. I have seen the change at Mile High, and it isn't a hallucination.

I'm with TGN on this... I have season tickets, and the change has been amazing -- not in a good way.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 07:20 AM
Taco, you're a ****ing idiot who fabricates bull**** to fit your agenda.

How about you source this bull****:
And why didn't you flip out over Shanahan getting stomped by Oakland last year, if you're going to say things like this about McDaniels:
Hell, it took a trick by Shanahan to avoid losing at home to Oakland in '07 as well as the beating we took in '08. And when did Shanahan ever deliver that road win in KC? Isn't that just as important? Because we where among their very few wins in '08 as well, just in KC.

Didn't Jay Cutler do exactly that? Without having actually beaten the Chargers to that point in his career either. And this whole board defended him for it. When McDaniels makes a few pre-game comments after delivering a huge win in San Diego a few weeks before its seen in an entirely different light though.

Admit it TJ, you have a double standard on all things McDaniels. Until he wins a championship you'll make these same chicken little whiny b**** threads.

Enjoy managing this cesspool you claim is a football discussion board, jackass.

Oh, man, beautiful. Couldn't have said it any better!

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:21 AM
Yep, I understand that. You didn't address his argument either.

You made up a point that had nothing to do with anything (the "you guys don't think it's important to relate to players!" hilarity), making your argument a strawman, and completely invalid.

Again, good try, though.

I stated why I wanted him gone and what I find to be important that others obviously don't. It isn't an argument. You can't come back and tell me why I wanted him fired. Well, you can but you will look pretty dumb.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 07:22 AM
I still don't understand the passionate, maniacal support for this guy. Every time anyone even hints that McDaniels isn't up to the challenge, a flock of poeple appear and start hurling stones.

Are you guys related or something? What has he done to earn this level of blind support?

McDaniels says 'no one is bigger than the team'. But apparently that isn't true - because HE is bigger than the team (in his own eyes). It isn't about Nolan. Or Marshall. Or Scheffler. Or Cutler. Or the Goodmans. Individually, each incident tells us something. Collectively, they indicate (to me) an out of control ego hell bent on turning this franchise into the Denver Joshes.

It's called a willingness to give the guy a chance and support the team I love instead of crying like a little girl at everything I don't agree with.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 07:23 AM
-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

You make these two statements as if they are established fact. Yet there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. You whole argument falls apart as a result.

As far as beating the Raiders and Chiefs, you didn't seem to have a problem with the 31-10 butt-whipping the Raiders gave us at home last season under Shanny, a win that would have clinched the division.

TheDave
01-20-2010, 07:23 AM
Another "Good Fan" v. "Bad Fan" Thread.

I was really hoping this place was going to move beyond that... Guess not.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 07:26 AM
Obviously, Josh is a gutless drunk.

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:26 AM
It's called a willingness to give the guy a chance and support the team I love instead of crying like a little girl at everything I don't agree with.

Instead you just want to cry like a little girl because others don't except everything he does.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 07:30 AM
You make these two statements as if they are established fact. Yet there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. You whole argument falls apart as a result.

As far as beating the Raiders and Chiefs, you didn't seem to have a problem with the 31-10 butt-whipping the Raiders gave us at home last season under Shanny, a win that would have clinched the division.

Dude, 31-10 to the Raiders, 52-21 to the Chargers, we just needed to bridge a gap!

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:30 AM
Another "Good Fan" v. "Bad Fan" Thread.

I was really hoping this place was going to move beyond that... Guess not.

Every Bronco forum has this at all times. It has been like that even under Shanahan. I haven't found one that is different. It is just that we are a 6, I can't say I disagree with Cutler.

Anyways, they are bad fans though. How can you support cancer so blindly? Who cares that my friend is about to die? He has cancer and I am his friend so I will support his cancer!

Pony Boy
01-20-2010, 07:32 AM
You're right - was born in the late 80's. I understand where you like to embrace the history,

You must have patience Grasshopper and and learn from the masters. Embrace the history and listen to the elders when they speak.....

25970

TheDave
01-20-2010, 07:37 AM
Every Bronco forum has this at all times. It has been like that even under Shanahan. I haven't found one that is different. It is just that we are a 6, I can't say I disagree with Cutler.

Anyways, they are bad fans though. How can you support cancer so blindly? Who cares that my friend is about to die? He has cancer and I am his friend so I will support his cancer!

Didn't use to be that way here... Sure there were the occasional "Superfan" measuring contests.

But since shanny was fired that what the majority of threads devolve into.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 07:38 AM
Dude, 31-10 to the Raiders, 52-21 to the Chargers, we just needed to bridge a gap!

Yeah, according to Taco and BPC those two ass-cuttings with the division on the line were evidence of a team on the rise.

DrFate
01-20-2010, 07:41 AM
It's called a willingness to give the guy a chance and support the team I love instead of crying like a little girl at everything I don't agree with.

At what point does his actions/productions overshadow this 'support the team' fallacy?

jhns
01-20-2010, 07:43 AM
Didn't use to be that way here... Sure there were the occasional "Superfan" measuring contests.

But since shanny was fired that what the majority of threads devolve into.

I agree. It is annoying. I just go with it and try to make fun of it. Bowlen and McDaniels split the fanbase though. A lot of fans think they are great fans because they fight with other fans and tell them how horrible they are. That is how we will get our home field advantage back. We will be fighting so loud amongst ourselves that the other teams won't be able to hear the calls.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 07:45 AM
-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

-As such Nolan's energy was effectively split between doing what McDaniels wants and doing what he (Nolan) thought was needed. I don't accept these assumptions at all. This is the lynchpin of your argument and it's a specious assumption.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 07:45 AM
I don't care if it's McDaniels, Nolan, Pees, or whoever.

All I care about is getting the most out of the drafts (including last year) because all our problems from the trenches to staying competitive to beating division rivals at home can be fixed if we draft well like the perennial playoff teams.

If McDaniels can do that in his first three years here and win: Great!

If he can't? Then he can f uck off and join the sh*theap full of other young coaches that couldn't get it done.

Basically I give him the deal I saw with Shanahan in 2006. I gave Shanahan three years to deliver and yes he drafted extremely well for offense but failed to win and fix the DL. So I can't feel too bad he was shown the door.

Same goes for McDaniels. He gets three years or until his contract expires in 2011.

Post of the thread. Well done. :thumbs:

It's so simple.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 07:46 AM
At what point does his actions/productions overshadow this 'support the team' fallacy?

You have very little result upon which you criticize his actions. How about giving the guy at least the duration of his contract? Give it some friggen time already.

WolfpackGuy
01-20-2010, 07:48 AM
The head coach even admitted he still considered himself a Patriot when he said "WE own you". The key word being WE. Later he clarified that when he said WE, he meant himself and the Patriots. His own words folks, Broncomutt didn't make that up.

I wonder how his own players felt about:

A) Head coach motivating opposing players during warmups?
B) Backing his smack talk up by citing a different team? (that is so weak)


I didn't know that's what his "we" meant until just now.

I wouldn't even give that a bush league rating.

And this is the Broncos' coach, people!

TheDave
01-20-2010, 07:53 AM
I agree. It is annoying. I just go with it and try to make fun of it. Bowlen and McDaniels split the fanbase though. A lot of fans think they are great fans because they fight with other fans and tell them how horrible they are. That is how we will get our home field advantage back. We will be fighting so loud amongst ourselves that the other teams won't be able to hear the calls.

I do agree that the fan base absolutely mimics the team...

Cutler is the man... Cutler is traded... No other FO changes... Goodmans fired... Punt... Suspension...6-0... 2-8... blitz... read & react... Hugs from Marshall... Suspended again... Thank god for Mike Nolan... Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

and to think he's only been here for 1 year. Hilarious!

DrFate
01-20-2010, 07:53 AM
You have very little result upon which you criticize his actions.

I can't say this statement is unfair - but at the same time I can't agree with it. The entire franchise has been in turmoil since this guy arrived (I don't think that point is in dispuse) .

Regardless of personal feelings on certain players, look at the results:


pro bowl qb - gone
pro bowl wr - good as gone
solid young WR in Royal, left to wilt and die after great rookie season
solid offensive system, envy of the league - replaced with less effective system
goodly number of respected coaching staff - gone
turnstile at DC - keep goin' round and round
2009 season - wheels came off
2009 draft - head scratcher
embarrassing moves pre-game with Chargers


He could set him self on fire at the 50 yard line and a lot of people on this board would tell me what a great move it was. I simply can't figure it out.

Please - show me the 'silver lining'. Show me where this franchise is 'better' or 'on the right' track from where it was the day Shanny was shown the door. Saying 'wait' isn't really an answer...

TheDave
01-20-2010, 07:56 AM
He could set him self on fire at the 50 yard line and a lot of people on this board would tell me what a great move it was. I simply can't figure it out.



Hilarious!

WolfpackGuy
01-20-2010, 07:59 AM
Show me where this franchise is 'better' or 'on the right' track from where it was the day Shanny was shown the door.


They're "accountable" dammit!

Taco John
01-20-2010, 07:59 AM
You make these two statements as if they are established fact. Yet there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. You whole argument falls apart as a result.

What I said was: "Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following..."

There is plenty of evidence to support the narrative that I observed from the outside looking in.

I didn't expect everybody would agree with my take on it. That's why it's a discussion board.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 08:03 AM
I can't say this statement is unfair - but at the same time I can't agree with it. The entire franchise has been in turmoil since this guy arrived (I don't think that point is in dispuse) .

Regardless of personal feelings on certain players, look at the results:


pro bowl qb - gone
pro bowl wr - good as gone
solid offensive system, envy of the league - replaced with less effective system
goodly number of respected coaching staff - gone
turnstile at DC - keep goin' round and round
2009 season - wheels came off
2009 draft - head scratcher
embarrassing moves pre-game with Chargers


He could set him self on fire at the 50 yard line and a lot of people on this board would tell me what a great move it was. I simply can't figure it out.

Please - show me the 'silver lining'. Show me where this franchise is 'better' or 'on the right' track from where it was the day Shanny was shown the door.

Pro bowl QB - How did he do this year? About the same as the scrub that replaced him.
Pro bowl WR - all indications he would be on the way out anyway even if shanny were here. guy is a headcase.
Offensive system - again give the guy some time to implement his system. You have not done that.
Respected coaches? I've asked many times, can someone lay out the Shanny coaching tree for me that rivals Walsh, Holmgren? Turner is a nice RB coach, Dennison is a clown. Who else am I missing?
Turnstile at DC has been going on for 5 years. I agree, I want some stability here. Hopefully McD can get it.
2009 - The wheels have come of repeatedely I hope McD can reverse this trend and am willing to give him a chance.
2009 Draft - Too early to tell. The majority, if not all, of the draftees were on the field this year in some capacity. Again, give it time.
Pre-game with Chargers - was confronted by the league jackass and stood up for himself and the team. Too bad the players laid down.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 08:07 AM
What I said was: "Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following..."

There is plenty of evidence to support the narrative that I observed from the outside looking in.

I didn't expect everybody would agree with my take on it. That's why it's a discussion board.

I don't see any "evidence" of that anywhere. It seems to a subjective analysis based on a pile of previous subjective analyses.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:10 AM
I can't say this statement is unfair - but at the same time I can't agree with it. The entire franchise has been in turmoil since this guy arrived (I don't think that point is in dispuse) .

Regardless of personal feelings on certain players, look at the results:


pro bowl qb - gone
pro bowl wr - good as gone
solid young WR in Royal, left to wilt and die after great rookie season
solid offensive system, envy of the league - replaced with less effective system
goodly number of respected coaching staff - gone
turnstile at DC - keep goin' round and round
2009 season - wheels came off
2009 draft - head scratcher
embarrassing moves pre-game with Chargers


And yet the Broncos duplicated their record from the previous season. Something must be going hella right to balance all the titanic-like pitfalls.

What the hell did people think a total rebuild would look like?

Taco John
01-20-2010, 08:11 AM
I don't see any "evidence" of that anywhere. It seems to a subjective analysis based on a pile of previous subjective analyses.

That's fine with me. I can accept that a certain portion of people watched us go 2-8 without connecting any of the events to eachother of which we are now watching to fall-out - like that 2-8 record happened in a vaccuum.

I don't require anyone to agree with me. I just gave my take. Some will agree, others will not.

DrFate
01-20-2010, 08:12 AM
Mpls, I appreciate your candid and well considered response.

Maybe I'm just looking for the tipping point. I have seen one positive move (Dawkins) and a host of poor ones. The answer given by the pro-McDaniels mafia is 'give him time'. At what point is 'just wait' not an acceptable answer any more?

There were rumors of more 'house cleaning' shortly after the end of the season: if he moves a Clady/Bailey/Dumerville/etc. - is that enough reason to pull the plug? If he has another draft where picks are traded like a fantasy league? Another late season collapse?

jhns
01-20-2010, 08:12 AM
And yet the Broncos duplicated their record from the previous season. Something must be going hella right to balance all the titanic-like pitfalls.

What the hell did people think a total rebuild would look like?

Yeah, Mike Nolan went right.

OOOPPPSS!

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:13 AM
What I said was: "Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following..."

There is plenty of evidence to support the narrative that I observed from the outside looking in.

I didn't expect everybody would agree with my take on it. That's why it's a discussion board.Yeah, the thread title totally suggests a tone of guesstimating humility.

ColoradoDarin
01-20-2010, 08:14 AM
That's fine with me. I can accept that a certain portion of people watched us go 2-8 without connecting any of the events to eachother of which we are now watching to fall-out - like that 2-8 record happened in a vaccuum.

I don't require anyone to agree with me. I just gave my take. Some will agree, others will not.

Nice pivot!! I'm amazed at how that strawman fell over so quickly, you must be very strong. No one is saying what you just said.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:15 AM
That's fine with me. I can accept that a certain portion of people watched us go 2-8 without connecting any of the events to eachother of which we are now watching to fall-out - like that 2-8 record happened in a vaccuum.Of course it's not possible that two reasonable people come with differing conclusions for why we ended the season 2-8.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 08:16 AM
What I said was: "Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following..."

There is plenty of evidence to support the narrative that I observed from the outside looking in.

Again, other than in your own mind where is this narrative developing that the first 6 weeks was Nolan's defense and the last 10 McD's? That's a preposterous suggestion and there is no such evidence. Garbage.

Broncomutt
01-20-2010, 08:16 AM
Pre-game with Chargers - was confronted by the league jackass and, later sought out the jackass on his own sidelines, and stood up for himself and the Patriots. Too bad the players laid down.


Fixed.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:17 AM
Again, other than in your own mind where is this narrative developing that the first 6 weeks was Nolan's defense and the last 10 McD's? That's a preposterous suggestion and there is no such evidence. Garbage.Once you understand that evidence can only suggest the following, you'll get on this bandwagon. Losses = McD. Wins = Shanny holdovers and Nolan.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 08:18 AM
That's fine with me. I can accept that a certain portion of people watched us go 2-8 without connecting any of the events to eachother of which we are now watching to fall-out - like that 2-8 record happened in a vaccuum.

I don't require anyone to agree with me. I just gave my take. Some will agree, others will not.

I guess I just don't get so conspiratorially complex about it. I think our lines are weak. We collapsed in 2008 because our lines are weak. It happened again this year for the same reason. When we fix that, it won't happen any more. Simple. Like Fontaine pointed out, McDaniels has until 2011 to fix it. If he can't, adios.

Killericon
01-20-2010, 08:19 AM
--We don't cheer like wild men when we beat the Patriots because the Denver Broncos own the Patriots. They are just another W that we've come to expect throughout the years.

Nuts to that, I was right there along with him. Favourite McDaniels moment.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 08:20 AM
Once you understand that evidence can only suggest the following, you'll get on this bandwagon. Losses = McD. Wins = Shanny holdovers and Nolan.

Clearly the narrative that is developing within that muddled head of his, yes. I just can't figure out whether he says this stuff to stir the pot or because he really means it. He can't be serious, can he?

RaiderH8r
01-20-2010, 08:21 AM
Taco, you're a ****ing idiot who fabricates bull**** to fit your agenda.

How about you source this bull****:
And why didn't you flip out over Shanahan getting stomped by Oakland last year, if you're going to say things like this about McDaniels:
Hell, it took a trick by Shanahan to avoid losing at home to Oakland in '07 as well as the beating we took in '08. And when did Shanahan ever deliver that road win in KC? Isn't that just as important? Because we where among their very few wins in '08 as well, just in KC.

Didn't Jay Cutler do exactly that? Without having actually beaten the Chargers to that point in his career either. And this whole board defended him for it. When McDaniels makes a few pre-game comments after delivering a huge win in San Diego a few weeks before its seen in an entirely different light though.

Admit it TJ, you have a double standard on all things McDaniels. Until he wins a championship you'll make these same chicken little whiny b**** threads.

Enjoy managing this cesspool you claim is a football discussion board, jackass.

Winning championships buys a little leeway. And yes, I know I was pissed about Oakland/KC losses in any year.

McKid came in with his pecker swinging and wanted to piss on the furniture to let everybody know he was BMOC. Fine. That is his perogative as a HC. He wanted to make bold moves. He's done that. I expect bold results. He hasn't done that. In the process of playing at being a great head coach he's made a laughable ass of himself and this organization through his bumbling efforts. He's a f'ing joke and needs to be shown the door. At least put in time out until an adult can come in to supervise his ass. Maybe Tony Dungy wants to be President of Football Operations and VP of Babysitting Coach McKid.

~Crash~
01-20-2010, 08:22 AM
If you are the long time fan that you claim you are, You would never say that. Denver used to have the best fans around period. Loud when needed, cheered wildly whether or not we were sub .500 or 12-2. Denver fans were truely the 12th man during many games that I attended from 1977 thru 1997... Teams were afraid to visit Mile High, we made that place shake like a California earthquake and the players fed off of us.

Being a season ticket holder used to be a status symbol like driving a Ferrari. A man would get divorced, lose his home, 1/2 of what he worked his entire life for but claim victory to all his friends because he got the Bronco season tickets.

Now a days you have a bunch of god damn prima donnas filling up half the stadium, busy talking on their cell phones and telling fans cheering out of their Bronco loving minds to sit down and be quiet or they will call security.... Tell me TJ, How in the living hell is this, "absolutely nothing wrong with Denver Broncos fans"?

Issac, I am calling bull shiat to you statement.

just not true the team is not the same team so as goes the fans. I seen the fans get with it when the team gives them something.

you guys are compairing Elway led team were you always knew we might have a chance .fans would try to get the team going then.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:24 AM
Clearly the narrative that is developing within that muddled head of his, yes. I just can't figure out whether he says this stuff to stir the pot or because he really means it. He can't be serious, can he?This narrative is really just a hold over narrative that's been trying to take root since Shanny got fired. It will be hard for anyone who felt personally hurt by the Shanny firing to read any Broncos failure as anything but McD's fault.

DenverBrit
01-20-2010, 08:28 AM
After TEN years of being 'average', did anyone seriously think a rookie coach was going to fix everything in one season??

Of course not. But go ahead and keep regurgitating the same old crap in the belief that you haven't repeated yourself enough and everyone needs to hear how much you hate the coach........ just one more time before breakfast.

Stop whining and crying and trying to pass it off as 'discussion.'

In the meantime, lighten up, this is a sport, it's entertainment, it's the Broncos. :peace:

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 08:30 AM
What I said was: "Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following..."

There is plenty of evidence to support the narrative that I observed from the outside looking in.

I didn't expect everybody would agree with my take on it. That's why it's a discussion board.

There is absolutely nothing--NOTHING--that has been reported anywhere that suggests that Nolan was given autonomy during the 6-0 start, then stripped of that during the bye. You pulled that narrative directly out of your ass.

jhns
01-20-2010, 08:31 AM
This narrative is really just a hold over narrative that's been trying to take root since Shanny got fired. It will be hard for anyone who felt personally hurt by the Shanny firing to read any Broncos failure as anything but McD's fault.

LOL

Now I have heard it all. "How dare people blame the teams failures on the guy in charge!"

This forum is great entertainment.

kamakazi_kal
01-20-2010, 08:37 AM
Every win and loss was shannys fault.

Why should Mcd get a pass ..... he's the coach now.

The patri ..... I mean the Broncos should be examined. That's what fans do, that's why we have a ... da da duhhhhh forum.

jhns
01-20-2010, 08:37 AM
After TEN years of being 'average', did anyone seriously think a rookie coach was going to fix everything in one season??

Of course not. But go ahead and keep regurgitating the same old crap in the belief that you haven't repeated yourself enough and everyone needs to hear how much you hate the coach........ just one more time before breakfast.

Stop whining and crying and trying to pass it off as 'discussion.'

In the meantime, lighten up, this is a sport, it's entertainment, it's the Broncos. :peace:

So you really think the issue is that he just didn't turn us around right away? Really?

If you all hate these discussions so much, why do you come here. It has been the same thing since the day I joined. Every day I read people cry about the way the boards are. Why do you keep showing up then? What is it they say about people who keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results?

The boards won't change until the fanbase is all on the same page again. That won't happen until McD proves he has something to offer (as in, he wins) or he gets fired.

DenverBrit
01-20-2010, 08:40 AM
So you really think the issue is that he just didn't turn us around right away? Really?

If you all hate these discussions so much, why do you come here. It has been the same thing since the day I joined. Every day I read people cry about the way the boards are. Why do you keep showing up then? What is it they say about people who keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results?

The boards won't change until the fanbase is all on the same page again. That won't happen until McD proves he has something to offer (as in, he wins) or he gets fired.

Love the discussions, hate the repetitive whining!

I guess it's just me.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:43 AM
Every win and loss was shannys fault.

Why should Mcd get a pass ..... he's the coach now.

People won't give McD credit for the wins, but they will give him credit for the losses. You don't see a problem with that?

TheDave
01-20-2010, 08:47 AM
People won't give McD credit for the wins, but they will give him credit for the losses. You don't see a problem with that?

Thats just not true... McD got all the credit in the world for his 6-0 start. Unfortunately the 2-8 finish(especially the raidrs chefs losses) tarnished things a little.

jhns
01-20-2010, 08:47 AM
Love the discussions, hate the repetitive whining!

I guess it's just me.

I was putting it nicely. All discussions here are repetitve whining. It is from both sides of the McDaniels(or whichever big debate is going) fence. You are either crying about McDaniels or you are crying about people crying.

I guess I just missed the days of actual civil discussions taking place.

Kid A
01-20-2010, 08:48 AM
The head coach even admitted he still considered himself a Patriot when he said "WE own you". The key word being WE. Later he clarified that when he said WE, he meant himself and the Patriots. His own words folks, Broncomutt didn't make that up.

I wonder how his own players felt about:

A) Head coach motivating opposing players during warmups?
B) Backing his smack talk up by citing a different team? (that is so weak)

Blueflame, I owe you an apology. :peace:

That is not at all what happened:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4697154

"I was two or three steps out of the tunnel when Shaun Phillips raced up to me with his helmet off and said, 'I'll kick your [expletive] ass, too,' " explained McDaniels. "I'm not saying I felt physically threatened but that's exactly the way it went down. It surprised me in a way but we played them a lot when I was in New England and he's always been that kind of guy.

"I wasn't out there trash-talking their players, going through their drills. This guy has been doing this since I've been in the league and, because they won, he takes the liberty of telling his side of the story. I didn't swear at him or threaten him. What I actually said was, 'I've heard the same thing from you for four or five years now, and when I was in New England, we owned you.'"

So,

1) He was responding to trash talk by the other team (and wasn't exactly like he was talking trash back as much as pointing out Phillips had no ground to talk)

2)Clearly he was referring to Phillips never being able to back up his talk as oppossed to boasting about how good the Pats are/were.

There are plenty of areas to criticize McDaniels (that whole 2-8 down the stretch thing for instance), and losing to KC and Oakland does suck, but those problems have jack **** to do with how "Bronco" he is.

It just looks like an insecure and ridiculous line of thinking to say "if only he was more commited to the Denver Broncos franchise we wouldn't have lost those games." BS. He's wants to win every game as much or more than anyone here. Whether he can do it regularly will remain to be seen, but saying he doesn't "understand" our team is silly reasoning. And misrepresenting events to make him look bad is even worse.

WolfpackGuy
01-20-2010, 08:49 AM
The only losses I would call out the defense on were the late season Cheaps and Faiders losses.

The offense's ineptitude had a lot to do with the other 6.

Even in most of the wins, the offense sucked.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 08:52 AM
Thats just not true... McD got all the credit in the world for his 6-0 start. Unfortunately the 2-8 finish(especially the raidrs chefs losses) tarnished things a little.Well maybe not you. But I think the OP is giving a lot of the 6-0 credit to Nolan. We can all agree the end of the season was abysmal but we're all miles apart on the reasons for the poor finish.

Honestly, I think our lack of talent on the lines caught up with us. Coaching up and schemeing to make up for talent only work so long, and I think this season is evidence of that. We were fortunate that with all the turnover we had this past season that we got eight wins. This is what it is like to rebuild; I'm not sure what people were expecting.

DenverBrit
01-20-2010, 08:56 AM
I was putting it nicely. All discussions here are repetitve whining. It is from both sides of the McDaniels(or whichever big debate is going) fence. You are either crying about McDaniels or you are crying about people crying.

I guess I just missed the days of actual civil discussions taking place.


I can see why you think that. ;D

jhns
01-20-2010, 08:57 AM
Honestly, I think our lack of talent on the lines caught up with us.

I see this a lot but it doesn't make sense. So it doesn't concern you that we had 5 picks in the first two rounds and spent all kinds of money in free agency and they didn't really address the lines? I get that we had some new starters but very few of our resources went to the lines. If they are all of our problems, and have been our big problem, McD and his staff sure didn't see it.

TheDave
01-20-2010, 08:57 AM
Well maybe not you. But I think the OP is giving a lot of the 6-0 credit to Nolan. We can all agree the end of the season was abysmal but we're all miles apart on the reasons for the poor finish.

Honestly, I think our lack of talent on the lines caught up with us. Coaching up and schemeing to make up for talent only work so long, and I think this season is evidence of that. We were fortunate that with all the turnover we had this past season that we got eight wins. This is what it is like to rebuild; I'm not sure what people were expecting.

Nolan should get a lot of credit for the 6-0 start... and by extension McD because he hired Nolan.

I think that what makes this Nolan situation so mind numbing to some of us.

As for the rebuilding statement... According to our coaches words and actions this was not a rebuild. He felt this team was ready to win now. This was one of the reasons he was willing to trade a 1st for A. Smith. Commencing that trade while in the middle of a full blown rebuild would be suicide.

PRBronco
01-20-2010, 08:58 AM
-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.



Just read the OP so far, so I'm not sure if anyone's asked this, but where did you hear this? This is brand new information to me, and disturbing, if true.

strafen
01-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Wow, TJ. This thread didn't go very well with the McDaniels nut-huggers, huh? :rofl:

Look. We're Broncos fans. I'm a Bronco fan. I'm not a fan of Josh McDaniels.
The freakin' napolean is driving this franchise into the ground while his nut-huggers fans here come up with ways to defend what he's doing.

My prediction is, McDaniels will be fired before we get any kind of season that by Broncos standards is considered to be a successful season.

The freakin' moron has put himself behind the 8-ball going into this season.
The Denver Broncos ARE NOT better off going into the 2010 season than we were last season.
Here we are as fans wondering and trying to figure out what to make of this mess.
I wonder if the McDaniels nut-huggers are willing to admit we're a worse team going into the 2010 season than we were in 2009.

Key vacancy coaching staff positions to be filled. Probably with yes-sir type of coaches like I've predicted.
McDaniels has put the rope around his neck.
I admire his courage. He's such an egomaniac, he won't leave any room for anybody else to take the blame but himself. That's an ego :thumbsup:

So, no offensive coordinator (oh wait, we have one don't we?) yup, I forgot we had an OC the yes-sir type that became irrelevant.
Now the search is on for a key DC position with another yes-sir type.
Oh, we also need an offensive line coach, and a running back coach.
They'll all be wondering why they were hired in the first place if it's McDaniels who is going to be calling the shots with the defense, RB, OL, OC... I hope we find some goo muppets out there...

Boy, to all the McDaniels nut-huggers out there, please talk to me
Tell me it ain't so!
Tell me McDaniels is doing this to build a championship team in only 2 years he's got left to do it before he goes to the gallows.
Tell me our defense will be better than 7th overall and 3rd in a lot of other categories in the NFL next year.
Tell me if our offensive line is going to go thru a steep learning curve with a sub-par coach coming in. About the running back coach, nuthuggers?
How do you guys feel about that?
Somebody better than Turner to replace him?
Thought so, guys...

About a DC. Any yes-sir type fellow available out there? Somebody with no pride to be bossed around by a 33-year old egomaniac that thinks being a head coach gives you more knowledge than you even if you've been coaching in the league longer he has been alive??

Any McDaniels nut-hugger out there please enlighten me
I want to see these chaos as McDaniels just doing the right thing for the team.
Please spell it out for me how all these problems and issues yet to be resolved going into this up coming season translate into success?

Oh, about the player(s) issues yet to be worked out?
Who's going to be pissed off when their first contract tender doesn't meet the players expectations?
How much nepotism will play a role in the new contract negotiations?
Is he already targeting more players from New England to come to Denver?
Is he going to botch the draft again?
Is he going to bring FA scrubs, again?

I think we've seen a pattern here for us to be prepared for major disappointments this off-season. I'll be shocked if he doesn't do something on draft day that would leave people scratching their heads.

Sit tight, expect the worse, hope for the best...

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Nolan should get a lot of credit for the 6-0 start... and by extension McD because he hired Nolan.
"By extension"? Ha. Sure, you're obviously completely objective on the matter. The defense played like crap down the stretch; so we should we lay the lion's share blame on Nolan, and only by extension corral in McD? There seems to be a bit of doubletalk going on.

Punisher
01-20-2010, 09:02 AM
lol were gonna suck for like the next 4 years unless we get Brad or Colt in the draft

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 09:02 AM
Just read the OP so far, so I'm not sure if anyone's asked this, but where did you hear this? This is brand new information to me, and disturbing, if true.

It's not true. No one has reported or suggested this anywhere, even in speculative terms. Taco pulled it out of his ass (nothing new there).

Br0nc0Buster
01-20-2010, 09:03 AM
We dont have great talent on defense, scheming can only get you so far

That makes much more sense than saying Josh took over the defense and that was the reason we started to suck

Seriously, McBean, Fields, and Peterson were our starters
Im surprised they held up as long as they did

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 09:03 AM
...Gibberish that I can't believe any human spent the time to type...Welcome to my ignore list!

DrFate
01-20-2010, 09:03 AM
After TEN years of being 'average', did anyone seriously think a rookie coach was going to fix everything in one season??


I call BS. Try looking at history my friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos

Saying ten years of average (whether capitalized or not) is simply untrue. This franchise was in the AFC championship game within the past FIVE years. Support Sparky if you want - but revisionist history about the recent success of the franchise isn't the way to do it. This team was in the playoffs in 03, 04, and 05.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 09:04 AM
We dont have great talent on defense, scheming can only get you so far

That makes much more sense than saying Josh took over the defense and that was the reason we started to suck

Seriously, McBean, Fields, and Peterson were our starters
Im surprised they held up as long as they didPrecisely what I was trying to communicate.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 09:05 AM
Wow, TJ. This thread didn't go very well with the McDaniels nut-huggers, huh? :rofl:

The thread should not have gone well with any objective person since Taco's premise (that Nolan had autonomy during the 6-0 start and was stripped of that during the bye) is totally unsubstantiated.

jhns
01-20-2010, 09:09 AM
We dont have great talent on defense, scheming can only get you so far

That makes much more sense than saying Josh took over the defense and that was the reason we started to suck

Seriously, McBean, Fields, and Peterson were our starters
Im surprised they held up as long as they did

What doesn't make sense is getting rid of the coordinator that was in charge of the only part of the team that improved. Even Joshs own hand picked coaches don't want to work with him.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 09:10 AM
What doesn't make sense is getting rid of the coordinator that was in charge of the only part of the team that improved. Even Joshs own hand picked coaches don't want to work with him.
By "get rid of" I assume you mean "quit".

Broncomutt
01-20-2010, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=McKid A;2725398]That is not at all what happened:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4697154

[QUOTE]

Nice try, but his clarification came later as Phillips and other players on the San Diego sideline indicated.

Im not surprised, Shaun Phillips said. Hes a little cocky ass. Its all good, all fun and games. We didnt look too much into it. As a coach, I hope he has that mind-set. But to say he owns us? I mean, you beat us one time. What has he really done in this league? He had a team 6-0 and now hes looking up at us from second place.

But if it is true, why is our head coach bragging about a different team in pre-game warm ups? Why is our head coach talking about the Patriots before a Bronco/Chargers game?

Sorry dude, no matter which way you cut it, McDaniels comes out looking like a punk. Phillips too, I agree he's an ass, but then again he's not a head coach either.

strafen
01-20-2010, 09:12 AM
What doesn't make sense is getting rid of the coordinator that was in charge of the only part of the team that improved. Even Joshs own hand picked coaches don't want to work with him.Hey, that's how insecure McEgo is. He was fearing for his job. Nolan was a threat to him...

DenverBrit
01-20-2010, 09:23 AM
I call BS. Try looking at history my friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos

Saying ten years of average (whether capitalized or not) is simply untrue. This franchise was in the AFC championship game within the past FIVE years. Support Sparky if you want - but revisionist history about the recent success of the franchise isn't the way to do it. This team was in the playoffs in 03, 04, and 05.

One playoff win in ten years is 'average,' IMO.

Sure you can look at the one year Denver made it to the AFC Championship game.....a game I'd rather forget... but I believe the body of work for the last ten years was average.

If it weren't, wouldn't Shanny still be here?

HEAV
01-20-2010, 09:27 AM
Simply put: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home. Even if you've lost the entire locker room, and every last player on the team is planning to blaze a trail out of town the following offseason, The Denver Broncos coach has got to be able to get the team to muster up enough pride to protect our stadium, our fan base, our franchise from these losses. He needs to recognize that it absolutely means something that we were among the Raiders and the Chiefs only wins for their entire season.
What else should Josh McDaniels understand about BEING a Denver Bronco?




Oakland Raiders 31 Denver Broncos 10 2008... In fact in 2008 Denver was 4-4 @ home.

2007 Denver was 5-3 @ Home

2006 Denver was 4-4 @ home

Maybe you are thinking back to 2005 when Denver went 8-0 @ home...with Jake Plummer...
-------

It's just the same old BS with you you haven't and never will get over the Shanny firing. Even with the 6-0 start you couldn't stand the move.

Nothing new from you, you drop little quips during the wins and loses that have undertones that you will later use to turn the season end results into a contrived bullet point theard where you tell the owner and caoch you now more than they do...

Gutless drunk thread.


Just sell the O-mane Issac and start or buy a Redskins board.

BigPlayShay
01-20-2010, 09:27 AM
I call BS. Try looking at history my friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos

Saying ten years of average (whether capitalized or not) is simply untrue. This franchise was in the AFC championship game within the past FIVE years. Support Sparky if you want - but revisionist history about the recent success of the franchise isn't the way to do it. This team was in the playoffs in 03, 04, and 05.

With a Larry Coyer Defense, whom Shanny fired to bring in Bates, and then his old friend Slowik.

DrFate
01-20-2010, 09:34 AM
One playoff win in ten years is 'average,' IMO.


Let's take a closer look at that 'average' period, shall we:

1998: 14-2
1999: 6-10
2000: 11-5
2001: 8-8
2002: 9-7
2003: 10-6
2004: 10-6
2005: 13-3
2006: 9-7
2008: 8-8

I'm pretty sure that plenty of fans would take 4 playoff appearances and a Super Bowl, during that period to say nothing of 7 playoff appearances and 2 rings in 15 years. Looks pretty damned good compared to the circus we have seen the last year. (1998-2008 being Shanny's last 10 years)

If you want to indict Shannahan on his last 2 years - be my guest. But at least be honest about the 'body of work'.

Popps
01-20-2010, 09:34 AM
The thread should not have gone well with any objective person since Taco's premise (that Nolan had autonomy during the 6-0 start and was stripped of that during the bye) is totally unsubstantiated.

LOL

I love that kind of bull****. Only around here.

These are the same goofs that say Nolan was the guy who made all of the improvements on defense, and then they'll turn around and say he was handcuffed by the tyrant.


Can we merge this thread with Gutless Drunk, or maybe "They'll never fire Shanahan you bunch of idiots?" This is on par with some of Taco's crappier work.


But, let me guess... if we start winning, Taco will say it's because Josh started doing things the Taco way.

:spit:

TheDave
01-20-2010, 09:36 AM
"By extension"? Ha. Sure, you're obviously completely objective on the matter. The defense played like crap down the stretch; so we should we lay the lion's share blame on Nolan, and only by extension corral in McD? There seems to be a bit of doubletalk going on.

See this is a common problem with people on your side of the fence... You're so busy drawing lines in the sand you fail at haveing a basic conversation.

During the first 6 weeks the defense held teams to an average of 11 pts, while our offense scored a whopping 19 pts. a game. So yes the defense should get the lions share of the credit...and McD played a part in that. He hired the coaches, he acquired the FA's and draft picks, he managed the team as a whole. Now is there anything I'm missing there?


Seriously some of you are so damn sensative about this kidd it makes having a conversation nearly impossible.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 09:36 AM
The thread should not have gone well with any objective person since Taco's premise (that Nolan had autonomy during the 6-0 start and was stripped of that during the bye) is totally unsubstantiated.

Didn't you get the memo? There's a narrative developing!

Taco John
01-20-2010, 09:38 AM
Just sell the O-mane Issac and start or buy a Redskins board.

Don't get used to that idea.

TonyR
01-20-2010, 09:38 AM
Let's take a closer look at that 'average' period, shall we...


The Broncos were a well above average regular season team but a below average playoff team during Shanahan's final 10 years.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 09:39 AM
LOL

I love that kind of bull****. Only around here.

These are the same goofs that say Nolan was the guy who made all of the improvements on defense, and then they'll turn around and say he was handcuffed by the tyrant.


Can we merge this thread with Gutless Drunk, or maybe "They'll never fire Shanahan you bunch of idiots?" This is on par with some of Taco's crappier work.


But, let me guess... if we start winning, Taco will say it's because Josh started doing things the Taco way.

:spit:

It really is laughably transparent. This BS premise that Taco pulled from his ass allows him to give all the credit to Nolan for the 6-0 start and all the blame to McD for the finish. Classic Taco nonsense.

DenverBrit
01-20-2010, 09:41 AM
Let's take a closer look at that 'average' period, shall we:

2000: 11-5
2001: 8-8
2002: 9-7
2003: 10-6
2004: 10-6
2005: 13-3
2006: 9-7
2008: 8-8

I'm pretty sure that plenty of fans would take 3 playoff appearances during that period to say nothing of 7 playoff appearances and 2 rings in 15 years. Looks pretty damned good compared to the circus we have seen the last year.

If you want to indict Shannahan on his last 2 years - be my guest. But at least be honest about the 'body of work'.

By leaving out their worst year? 2007: 7-9 ;D

Seriously, one playoff win in 10 years is average......unless the SuperBowl isn't the goal.

Popps
01-20-2010, 09:41 AM
It really is laughably transparent. This BS premise that Taco pulled from his ass allows him to give all the credit to Nolan for the 6-0 start and all the blame to McD for the finish. Classic Taco nonsense.

:rofl:


Awesome.

It's like listening to a toddler try to lie to you. You know it's bull****, but it's so precious, you almost don't want him to stop.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 09:42 AM
It really is laughably transparent. This BS premise that Taco pulled from his ass allows him to give all the credit to Nolan for the 6-0 start and all the blame to McD for the finish. Classic Taco nonsense.

That's exactly what I'm saying: Josh is responsible for the 2-8 stretch - and especially to the losing to the Raiders and the Chiefs at home. If not him, then who?

DrFate
01-20-2010, 09:43 AM
By leaving out their worst year? 2007: 7-9 ;D

Seriously, one playoff win in 10 years is average......unless the SuperBowl isn't the goal.

But I also left out 1998: 14-2, Super Bowl

Shanny's last season was 2008 - 10 years before that is 1998.

But yes, please add that 7-9 record.

:)

Which would show that Shanny's last 3 years were average. If you want to re-state your premise - I'd agree with you. The last 3 years were average. I still disagree that the last 10 were average...

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 09:49 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying: Josh is responsible for the 2-8 stretch - and especially to the losing to the Raiders and the Chiefs at home. If not him, then who?

Then why wasn't Shanny to blame for three straight seasons of late season collapses? Why was the '08 season which included an unprecedented collapse of losing a three game division lead with three games to go--including a 31-10 home loss to the Raiders (something you unbelievably claim is something a true Bronco doesn't do when it had only the previous season happened to Shanny) and 52-21 loss in the finale--evidence of a team on the upswing?

And, lastly, how about you provide one shred of evidence to support the "developing narrative" that Nolan had full autonomy for the 6-0 start and was stripped of that autonomy during the bye?

DenverBrit
01-20-2010, 09:49 AM
But I also left out 1998: 14-2, Super Bowl

Shanny's last season was 2008 - 10 years before that is 1998.

But yes, please add that 7-9 record.

:)

The last ten years.
1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.

So no, you didn't leave out the 1998 SB, you added it and left out 2007. ;D

WolfpackGuy
01-20-2010, 09:49 AM
There were also no tear down and rebuild years under Shanahan.

Retool on the fly, yes, but no salary cap purge seasons where the team had 3-5 wins.

I can see one or more of those coming up soon at this current regime's rate.

Pseudofool
01-20-2010, 09:53 AM
See this is a common problem with people on your side of the fence... You're so busy drawing lines in the sand you fail at haveing a basic conversation.

During the first 6 weeks the defense held teams to an average of 11 pts, while our offense scored a whopping 19 pts. a game. So yes the defense should get the lions share of the credit...and McD played a part in that. He hired the coaches, he acquired the FA's and draft picks, he managed the team as a whole. Now is there anything I'm missing there?


Seriously some of you are so damn sensative about this kidd it makes having a conversation nearly impossible.Look, I think it's far more difficult to ascribe blame and credit when we begin to partition it out piecemeal. Ultimately, the whole season is on McD and no one else. Our hot start blinded many of us, including me, that this was always a rebuilding year and that we had questionable talent in key areas (esp. on both lines). Both the defense and offense were pretty atrocious coming down the stretch, I have no problem blaming both McD and Nolan for that, but I feel it wasn't a scheme or coaching problem, but our lack of talent just caught up with us.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 09:56 AM
Let's take a closer look at that 'average' period, shall we:

1998: 14-2
1999: 6-10
2000: 11-5
2001: 8-8
2002: 9-7
2003: 10-6
2004: 10-6
2005: 13-3
2006: 9-7
2008: 8-8

I'm pretty sure that plenty of fans would take 4 playoff appearances and a Super Bowl, during that period to say nothing of 7 playoff appearances and 2 rings in 15 years. Looks pretty damned good compared to the circus we have seen the last year. (1998-2008 being Shanny's last 10 years)

If you want to indict Shannahan on his last 2 years - be my guest. But at least be honest about the 'body of work'.

Did you leave out '07 intentionally so you could sneak in the SB?

DrFate
01-20-2010, 09:58 AM
Did you leave out '07 intentionally so you could sneak in the SB?

If only it were so...

:)

originally I was just including 2000-2008...

I still stand by my original point - the last 10 years of this franchise were better than 'average' - and that includes the downturn of losing Elway...

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 09:58 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying: Josh is responsible for the 2-8 stretch - and especially to the losing to the Raiders and the Chiefs at home. If not him, then who?

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2725493&postcount=10

BroncoBuff
01-20-2010, 10:02 AM
LOL

I love that kind of bull****. Only around here.

These are the same goofs that say Nolan was the guy who made all of the improvements on defense, and then they'll turn around and say he was handcuffed by the tyrant.


Can we merge this thread with Gutless Drunk, or maybe "They'll never fire Shanahan you bunch of idiots?" This is on par with some of Taco's crappier work.


But, let me guess... if we start winning, Taco will say it's because Josh started doing things the Taco way.

:spit:

http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=308712&d=1261166008

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 10:06 AM
If only it were so...

:)

originally I was just including 2000-2008...

I still stand by my original point - the last 10 years of this franchise were better than 'average' - and that includes losing Elway and transitioning to a rookie QB.

I agree, better than average if you are a Lions, Bengals, Chiefs, Raider fan. And yes, losing a legend can be an insurmountable task. Look, I loved Shanny but honestly could not stand him at the end and was calling for his dismissal before it happened. Maybe that is why I am willing to give McD time. I just feel we got to the point that we needed to go in a different direction and I realize this will take time.

As for the 8-8 record this year, I actually enjoyed this year more than the past 3 because the team was at least in the games it lost. I saw a team that competed much harder and actually had some character, unlike the ass clowns that used to populate this team who celebrated tackles 20 yards past the line of scrimmage. I do like what I see in this team, call me crazy.

gyldenlove
01-20-2010, 10:09 AM
Then why wasn't Shanny to blame for three straight seasons of late season collapses? Why was the '08 season which included an unprecedented collapse of losing a three game division lead with three games to go--including a 31-10 home loss to the Raiders (something you unbelievably claim is something a true Bronco doesn't do when it had only the previous season happened to Shanny) and 52-21 loss in the finale--evidence of a team on the upswing?

And, lastly, how about you provide one shred of evidence to support the "developing narrative" that Nolan had full autonomy for the 6-0 start and was stripped of that autonomy during the bye?

Is it me or didn't Shanahan get FIRED! for those 3 seasons? so you could almost say he was held responsible - it is almost like someone blamed him for not winning and collapsing late and losing at home to the Raiders.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 10:15 AM
Is it me or didn't Shanahan get FIRED! for those 3 seasons? so you could almost say he was held responsible - it is almost like someone blamed him for not winning and collapsing late and losing at home to the Raiders.

I am referring specifically to Taco and the fact that he hypocritically criticizes McD for the exact same things he defended Shanny for.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 10:29 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2725493&postcount=10

Of course it's everybody else's fault. How silly of anyone to suggest that a rookie coach made any mistakes to help create a 2-8 losing stretch. It's all the players' and other coaches' fault.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 10:33 AM
I am referring specifically to Taco and the fact that he hypocritically criticizes McD for the exact same things he defended Shanny for.

Huh, wow. I can't imagine what Shanahan might have done to purchase any amount of leeway with the fans. Geez, what could it be that would cause fans to give Shanahan the benefit of a doubt while he built his young new team?

I just can't imagine anything!

Popps
01-20-2010, 10:42 AM
Of course it's everybody else's fault. How silly of anyone to suggest that a rookie coach made any mistakes to help create a 2-8 losing stretch. It's all the players' and other coaches' fault.

Did anyone say he didn't make mistakes?

Of course, no credit is given to him for the 8 games we did win... only blame for the 8 we lost. Typical Widow-nonsense.

How about this... we lacked talent, he did some things wrong, and some things right. We caught some good breaks early, bad breaks late. We're probably an 8-8 team right now.

I know that's not a sexy answer, but maybe it's the truth.


Or, maybe we went south because of FISTPUMPGATE!!!!!

:rofl:

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 10:42 AM
Huh, wow. I can't imagine what Shanahan might have done to purchase any amount of leeway with the fans. Geez, what could it be that would cause fans to give Shanahan the benefit of a doubt while he built his young new team?

I just can't imagine anything!

Ah, so it's OK that Shanny's teams the last three years of his tenure collapsed down the stretch because he won two Super Bowls over a decade ago? Gotcha. That's a failure to let go of the past worthy of Al Davis. Fact is, you are criticizing McD for some of the exact same things that were a problem with Shanny his final three years. That makes you a hypocrite.

Popps
01-20-2010, 10:44 AM
I am referring specifically to Taco and the fact that he hypocritically criticizes McD for the exact same things he defended Shanny for.

Yea, it's weird. I didn't hear Taco calling out Shanny for choosing Boss Bailey as his fix for the worst defense in football, or the Slowick debacle.

I only heard him calling his forum members idiots for even THINKING Shanahan might be let go. (The day before he was.)

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 10:51 AM
Of course it's everybody else's fault. How silly of anyone to suggest that a rookie coach made any mistakes to help create a 2-8 losing stretch. It's all the players' and other coaches' fault.

I agree with Inferno. You are criticizing in McD the same thing you defended Shanahan against. They both tried to coach their way beyond a lack of talent, especially on the Dline. The difference is, over ten years, Shanahan had made his bed. McDaniels had to make the best of what he got. Judging by the win/loss record (what else counts in football?) he did just as well as Shanny.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 11:09 AM
Did anyone say he didn't make mistakes?

Of course, no credit is given to him for the 8 games we did win... only blame for the 8 we lost. Typical Widow-nonsense.

How about this... we lacked talent, he did some things wrong, and some things right. We caught some good breaks early, bad breaks late. We're probably an 8-8 team right now.

I know that's not a sexy answer, but maybe it's the truth.


Or, maybe we went south because of FISTPUMPGATE!!!!!

:rofl:


I think there's a lot of truth to what you say, except that I always believed that this was a 9 or 10 win team, and I think the 6-0 start showed that. Whatever adjustments were made during the bye week, the defense came out of it playing flat for the rest of the season.

OBF1
01-20-2010, 11:11 AM
We didn't lose to the Raiders and Chiefs at home because of the fans.

You are a GUTLESS poster Issac. This is a boob type of comeback, Weak at best.

Kid A
01-20-2010, 11:11 AM
[QUOTE=McKid A;2725398]That is not at all what happened:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4697154

[QUOTE]

Nice try, but his clarification came later as Phillips and other players on the San Diego sideline indicated.

Im not surprised, Shaun Phillips said. Hes a little cocky ass. Its all good, all fun and games. We didnt look too much into it. As a coach, I hope he has that mind-set. But to say he owns us? I mean, you beat us one time. What has he really done in this league? He had a team 6-0 and now hes looking up at us from second place.

But if it is true, why is our head coach bragging about a different team in pre-game warm ups? Why is our head coach talking about the Patriots before a Bronco/Chargers game?

Sorry dude, no matter which way you cut it, McDaniels comes out looking like a punk. Phillips too, I agree he's an ass, but then again he's not a head coach either.


What part of Phillips comments changes anything? Phillips started making some loud trash talk toward McD, and Josh responded with a fairly mild retort. This is hardly our coach going out of his way to talk **** or act like a punk.

That you decide to interpret him incidentally referring to when he had previously played Phillips while at NE as him making a concerted effort to "brag" about his previous team is just stupid. But I guess if he's going to understand what it means to be a "true Bronco" he has to never again refer to any other franchise he was a part of.

Again, I'm completely on board with critiquing his coaching job in the second half of the season. Criticize the draft results. All that is more than fair game and is worth discussing this offseason.

Framing all these issues in the context of him "not understanding what it means to BE a Denver Bronco" is just inane, though. I think some people here are still dealing with insecurity issues about hiring a Patriot coach. The dude's paycheck, career, pride, etc all depend on the success of the Denver Broncos. I'm not sure where anyone could see commitment issues.

BABronco
01-20-2010, 11:22 AM
Is he going to bring FA scrubs, again?


I don't see how you can bitch about the FA McD brought in. Most of them had a pretty good year.

The only one I really hated was Lamont Jordan. I would get so pissed every single time I saw him start walking on the field.

Aside from that he got Buckhalter, Dawkins, Davis, Gaffney, Hill, and Holliday to come in. All of which did well.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 11:25 AM
I don't see how you can b**** about the FA McD brought in. Most of them had a pretty good year.

The only one I really hated was Lamont Jordan. I would get so pissed every single time I saw him start walking on the field.

Aside from that he got Buckhalter, Dawkins, Davis, Gaffney, Hill, and Holliday to come in. All of which did well.

Maybe drag misses the Browncos?

2KBack
01-20-2010, 11:29 AM
Is it me or didn't Shanahan get FIRED! for those 3 seasons? so you could almost say he was held responsible - it is almost like someone blamed him for not winning and collapsing late and losing at home to the Raiders.

I'm confidant that if the current staff goes three years with no improvement, then they too will get fired.

Archer81
01-20-2010, 11:31 AM
I'm confidant that if the current staff goes three years with no improvement, then they too will get fired.


This.


:Broncos:

OBF1
01-20-2010, 11:32 AM
just not true the team is not the same team so as goes the fans. I seen the fans get with it when the team gives them something.

you guys are compairing Elway led team were you always knew we might have a chance .fans would try to get the team going then.

WRONG..........

I stated games between 1977-1977 That is 6 years without Elway, We had guys names Weese, DeBerg, Herrmann and Morton playing the QB position back then

BroncoInferno
01-20-2010, 11:33 AM
I'm confidant that if the current staff goes three years with no improvement, then they too will get fired.

But you didn't think the final three games of the '08 season were signs of a team on the upswing? Taco sure thought so.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 11:34 AM
You are a GUTLESS poster Issac. This is a boob type of comeback, Weak at best.

I disagree. I think Broncos fans are good fans. I don't buy the idea that the fans there at the stadium don't provide a good atmosphere for winning. Maybe it's not like it was when the old stadium was up. But I think the decline of the Broncos fan is over stated. I don't think the fans deserve blame for either of those losses.

Broncomutt
01-20-2010, 11:35 AM
[QUOTE=Broncomutt;2725457][QUOTE=McKid A;2725398]That is not at all what happened:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4697154




What part of Phillips comments changes anything? Phillips started making some loud trash talk toward McD, and Josh responded with a fairly mild retort. This is hardly our coach going out of his way to talk **** or act like a punk.

That you decide to interpret him incidentally referring to when he had previously played Phillips while at NE as him making a concerted effort to "brag" about his previous team is just stupid. But I guess if he's going to understand what it means to be a "true Bronco" he has to never again refer to any other franchise he was a part of.

Again, I'm completely on board with critiquing his coaching job in the second half of the season. Criticize the draft results. All that is more than fair game and is worth discussing this offseason.

Framing all these issues in the context of him "not understanding what it means to BE a Denver Bronco" is just inane, though. I think some people here are still dealing with insecurity issues about hiring a Patriot coach. The dude's paycheck, career, pride, etc all depend on the success of the Denver Broncos. I'm not sure where anyone could see commitment issues.

Your tying me up with Taco I think, I don't really have an opinion on whether he knows what it means to be a Bronco. My issue is with motivating opposing players during pre-game warm-ups, and then, tripping over himself later trying to justify it.

After the game, McDaniels had the response of a six-year-old when asked about the incident: "(They) talked to me first."

Now, the first Charger game when our players got into a mild scuffle with the Chargers players, that is what I like to see. I loved that. I don't care what the players say to each other.

But hey, if you want a Sam Wyche:clown: or Jerry Glanville:clown: type of coach, that's your perogative. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

vancejohnson82
01-20-2010, 11:39 AM
I disagree. I think Broncos fans are good fans. I don't buy the idea that the fans there at the stadium don't provide a good atmosphere for winning. Maybe it's not like it was when the old stadium was up. But I think the decline of the Broncos fan is over stated. I don't think the fans deserve blame for either of those losses.

TJ,

I honestly HATE going to the new stadium...the atmosphere is soo mixed between hardcore fans and casual outdoor enthusiasts....its really a sign of the times but in my experiences Gilette, the Meadowlands, Buffalo and Pittsburgh all had MUCH better atmospheres and the hardcore, "lets rock this place for our team" type fans outweighed the wine and cheese crowd ten-fold.

the last two times i came to see a game I was scolded for cheering too much....and one of those games was the 39-38 Chargers game....I'm not obnoxious but I don't see any reason why hands shouldnt be clapping and voices shouldnt be yelling EVERY PLAY on defense

ok, rant over..

it isnt the fans fault but the team defnitely lost a home field swagger with the switch

OBF1
01-20-2010, 11:40 AM
Where in the world do you come up with the fans have anything to do with losing 2 games??? No one ever said they had anything to do with it. It is appearant that you are very young and NEVER attended games in the 70's or 80's so you have no idea what you are talking about. Talk to fans that had or currantly have season tickets and they will tell you first hand how much the fans have changed.... for the worse.

You are still talking out of your ass... When you keep defending the fan base that attends "todays" games, it makes your other points sound like a personal attack not remarks based in fact.

Kid A
01-20-2010, 11:47 AM
Your tying me up with Taco I think, I don't really have an opinion on whether he knows what it means to be a Bronco. My issue is with motivating opposing players during pre-game warm-ups, and then, tripping over himself later trying to justify it.

Well, your initial argument seemed to be that Josh had revealed his stronger allegiance to NE by "bragging" about them in the pregame. That seems to me to fit in with the entire "he's not fully committed to Denver" line of thought. Maybe that wasn't your main point, but it certainly is where a lot of people on this thread are coming from.


After the game, McDaniels had the response of a six-year-old when asked about the incident: "(They) talked to me first."

Now, the first Charger game when our players got into a mild scuffle with the Chargers players, that is what I like to see. I loved that. I don't care what the players say to each other.

But hey, if you want a Sam Wyche:clown: or Jerry Glanville:clown: type of coach, that's your perogative. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

I guess I just don't see what he responded with as being a Wyche/Glanville kind of action. One time thing, not really him going out of the way or making an effort to talk trash to the other team. Just a very mild jab at a guy screaming in his face. Calling a guy on his BS in that instance doesn't see all that immature to me.

If this was a pattern of him getting in back and forths with opposing player regularly I would agree. But this is one incident in which he really didn't say much at all that could be regarded as trash talking.

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 11:57 AM
TJ,

I honestly HATE going to the new stadium...the atmosphere is soo mixed between hardcore fans and casual outdoor enthusiasts....its really a sign of the times but in my experiences Gilette, the Meadowlands, Buffalo and Pittsburgh all had MUCH better atmospheres and the hardcore, "lets rock this place for our team" type fans outweighed the wine and cheese crowd ten-fold.

the last two times i came to see a game I was scolded for cheering too much....and one of those games was the 39-38 Chargers game....I'm not obnoxious but I don't see any reason why hands shouldnt be clapping and voices shouldnt be yelling EVERY PLAY on defense

ok, rant over..

it isnt the fans fault but the team defnitely lost a home field swagger with the switch


I'm almost there (HATE the atmosphere). It's ridiculous when you have to worry about getting tossed out and losing your rights because you are the only one (or one of a handful) in your section making noise. Even my wife is getting disgusted with the LAME ASS FANS.
Just a matter of time and they'll have the "peace and quite" they longing for.

At the beginning of the Raider game when we made the interception some dumbass Raider fan spilled a whole frigging beer down my back and I got up and said "WTF" is wrong with you. This asshole had the audacity to complain to the security about me being out of line. They warned him and me to behave. WTF IS THAT?----That's the kind of **** that makes long time season ticket holders tell the Broncos FO to go **** themselves.

OBF1
01-20-2010, 12:11 PM
Your just a piss poor fan TGN

vancejohnson82
01-20-2010, 12:12 PM
I'm almost there (HATE the atmosphere). It's ridiculous when you have to worry about getting tossed out and losing your rights because you are the only one (or one of a handful) in your section making noise. Even my wife is getting disgusted with the LAME ASS FANS.
Just a matter of time and they'll have the "peace and quite" they longing for.

At the beginning of the Raider game when we made the interception some dumbass Raider fan spilled a whole frigging beer down my back and I got up and said "WTF" is wrong with you. This a-hole had the audacity to complain to the security about me being out of line. They warned him and me to behave. WTF IS THAT?----That's the kind of **** that makes long time season ticket holders tell the Broncos FO to go **** themselves.

DUring the Chargers game I kept trying to get on my feet during the third downs and almost all the people in my section were yelling at me.....NONE of them were cheering until our last offensive drive and it drove me nuts

i just think the crowd is maybe "too classy?" It's almost as if you are frowned upon if you put some emotion into the game....as I said before I understand not wanting OBNOXIOUS fans around....but there is a difference between obnoxious and intense....i pay good money to be there with other Broncos fans and i just expect the same enthusiasm i have

Mile High used to shake

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 12:15 PM
Your just a piss poor fan TGN


REP!!! for finally figuring that out. You're a smart man, regardless of what Chica says.;D

Broncomutt
01-20-2010, 12:15 PM
Well, your initial argument seemed to be that Josh had revealed his stronger allegiance to NE by "bragging" about them in the pregame. That seems to me to fit in with the entire "he's not fully committed to Denver" line of thought. Maybe that wasn't your main point, but it certainly is where a lot of people on this thread are coming from.



I guess I just don't see what he responded with as being a Wyche/Glanville kind of action. One time thing, not really him going out of the way or making an effort to talk trash to the other team. Just a very mild jab at a guy screaming in his face. Calling a guy on his BS in that instance doesn't see all that immature to me.

If this was a pattern of him getting in back and forths with opposing player regularly I would agree. But this is one incident in which he really didn't say much at all that could be regarded as trash talking.


I did state that "WE=Patriots", though I wasn't referring to allegiance. It was a weak attempt at backtracking on something I bet he wishes he could take back. And that only made him look more foolish. He should have taken the high road like San Diego FO did and refuse to comment any further.

If McDaniels had simply blurted out "we own you" in direct response to Phillips in the tunnel, I could let that slide. Not dignified for a coach, but hey we all let things slip. But my understanding is that he sought Phillips out and made the comment to Phillips, in front of the San Diego bench for Christ's sake. Not in the tunnel as he would like you and the rest of the world to believe. Maybe Phillips made his comments in the tunnel, but McDaniels apparently stewed over it enough to seek him out later.

That's called getting into somebody's head. Exactly what Phillips wanted and exactly why Phillips was laughing about it afterwards.

Interesting how you call Phillips a clown but McDaniels isn't, even after apparently stooping to Phillips level?

I do see you point though about it being, so far, a single incident. Hopefully the kid learned a valuable lesson. Shame he's just learning that kind of high school bull**** now though.

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 12:17 PM
DUring the Chargers game I kept trying to get on my feet during the third downs and almost all the people in my section were yelling at me.....NONE of them were cheering until our last offensive drive and it drove me nuts

i just think the crowd is maybe "too classy?" It's almost as if you are frowned upon if you put some emotion into the game....as I said before I understand not wanting OBNOXIOUS fans around....but there is a difference between obnoxious and intense....i pay good money to be there with other Broncos fans and i just expect the same enthusiasm i have

Mile High used to shake

That's another ISSUE. Half the dumbasses who attend games these days think they are supposed to make noise when we have the ball. Then I have to scream STFU, and get stupid looks from stupid ****ers.

Paladin
01-20-2010, 12:30 PM
Division game? Eff division game. I'm not talking about divisions. I'm talking about the fabric of history. Your answer basically tells me that you were born in the late 80's or early 90's and don't appreciate yourself the history of these match-ups. I hate to be patronizing, but you grew up in a time when the Raiders were put in a cage for us to tease. They weren't always like that.



You wouldn't ask this question if you had any idea of Shanahan's lifetime record against Oakland as a head coach. It's kind of a silly question to ask, all things considered.

No it's not a silly question. Shanahan did well against the Faiders, true. But that last one was a more important game than most of the previous ones, and he had - gasp - Quitler to throw the ball and he had - gasp - Marshall. I could argue that Shanahan had blinders on to believe that his friend Slowick could stop JaFatass. I was at that game. and there was an absolute breakdown on D and the O completely sucked. We left the game right after Quitler threw to Sheffler and it was int. They were lost after the half. A frickihng cold game with a cold wind and the Broncos sucked that day........

And yes, TJ, I've been a Broncos fan since the Stripped Socks days. I saw them Beat Detroit. I watched the game when they beat Boston. I was at the game against GB when Don Horn looked good for a while. If you are a true Broncos fan, you'd know what those game meant.......

McD is a Bronco, like it or not. Shanahan was an improtant coach in Denver's history, no doubt and no argument. But he had to leave, and McD is the HC now....

gyldenlove
01-20-2010, 12:33 PM
I'm confidant that if the current staff goes three years with no improvement, then they too will get fired.

I would say 2 years, Shanahan had the benefits of being the only HC in Denver history to bring home the Lombardi trophy, Mcdaniels doesn't.

If we do not see improvement next year Mcdaniels could very well be looking at one of those find-someone-to-blame-situations-because-if-you-don't-I-am-blaming-you.

Popps
01-20-2010, 12:34 PM
I agree with Inferno. You are criticizing in McD the same thing you defended Shanahan against. They both tried to coach their way beyond a lack of talent, especially on the Dline. The difference is, over ten years, Shanahan had made his bed. McDaniels had to make the best of what he got. Judging by the win/loss record (what else counts in football?) he did just as well as Shanny.



Look, Rohirrim... sure, you've been a fan since franchise day-one. Sure, you're older and infinitely wiser.

But, you just sit back and let Taco and his 10 years of Broncos experience tell you how to be a fan. O.K. buddy?

Close your mouth, and learn from his wisdom...

-Gutless Drunk
-You people are idiots, Shanahan will never be fired
-Fist-pumpgate caused global warming
-Hillis=Walter Peyton
-Griese is the same as Brady

The list is endless. So much to learn, so little time.

Less talking and more learning. Taco has been a fan since around the time we won a Superbowl. You just step back and absorb, buddy.

Popps
01-20-2010, 12:35 PM
But you didn't think the final three games of the '08 season were signs of a team on the upswing? Taco sure thought so.

Hilarious!

No, but see... that was part of the "rebuild."

Last year's collapse was FINE, bro. ALL GOOD DUDE!


THIS year's collapse... BAAAAAD!

gyldenlove
01-20-2010, 12:40 PM
I disagree. I think Broncos fans are good fans. I don't buy the idea that the fans there at the stadium don't provide a good atmosphere for winning. Maybe it's not like it was when the old stadium was up. But I think the decline of the Broncos fan is over stated. I don't think the fans deserve blame for either of those losses.

Good fans or bad fans, these are pro athletes and it is their job to win, the fan situation should never be an excuse. If they lost because of fans then every single player and coach should be fired - the fans are not there for the benefit of the team, the team has no right to expect anything from the fans - but on the contrary the fans have every right to expect the team to do their utmost.

Mr Chatterboodamn
01-20-2010, 12:45 PM
Hilarious!

No, but see... that was part of the "rebuild."

Last year's collapse was FINE, bro. ALL GOOD DUDE!


THIS year's collapse... BAAAAAD!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry#Modern_usage

bombay
01-20-2010, 12:49 PM
I've been supportive of the coach, because he is our coach and deserves a chance to put his stamp on the franchise and win or lose with his people, but I'm really beginning to question his people skills. And that is something a CEO really needs. I'm not going to panic and go over to the dark side, but his grace period is shrinking with me. I want to see success, and soon. He asked to be judged on wins and losses, so that's what I'll do. Maybe he'll have a good free agent class and draft, and we'll win the division. It's not like any other team in the division is great.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 12:49 PM
Look, Rohirrim... sure, you've been a fan since franchise day-one. Sure, you're older and infinitely wiser.

But, you just sit back and let Taco and his 10 years of Broncos experience tell you how to be a fan. O.K. buddy?

Close your mouth, and learn from his wisdom...

-Gutless Drunk
-You people are idiots, Shanahan will never be fired
-Fist-pumpgate caused global warming
-Hillis=Walter Peyton
-Griese is the same as Brady

The list is endless. So much to learn, so little time.

Less talking and more learning. Taco has been a fan since around the time we won a Superbowl. You just step back and absorb, buddy.

Do we know if this is really when he became a fan? I have a feeling half this board is made of people like this.

BroncoBuff
01-20-2010, 12:51 PM
Close your mouth, and learn from his wisdom...

-Gutless Drunk
-You people are idiots, Shanahan will never be fired
-Fist-pumpgate caused global warming
-Hillis=Walter Peyton
-Griese is the same as Brady

The list is endless. So much to learn, so little time.

This from the guy who strutted around while we were 6-0 yelling "I tried to tell you Josh had us going in the ***ing right direction, you ****ing widows!"

Yeah, the right direction ... toward a 2-8 finish ending with home losses to the worst two teams in the league.

So much to learn, so little time.

bombay
01-20-2010, 12:55 PM
This from the guy who strutted around while we were 6-0 yelling "I tried to tell you Josh had us going in the ***ing right direction, you ****ing widows!"

Yeah, the right direction ... toward a 2-8 finish ending with home losses to the worst two teams in the league.
So much to learn, so little time.


Is that '08 or '09?

Gotta tell you, I regretted freezing my ass off for the Buffalo game.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Look, Rohirrim... sure, you've been a fan since franchise day-one. Sure, you're older and infinitely wiser.

But, you just sit back and let Taco and his 10 years of Broncos experience tell you how to be a fan. O.K. buddy?

Close your mouth, and learn from his wisdom...

-Gutless Drunk
-You people are idiots, Shanahan will never be fired
-Fist-pumpgate caused global warming
-Hillis=Walter Peyton
-Griese is the same as Brady

The list is endless. So much to learn, so little time.

Less talking and more learning. Taco has been a fan since around the time we won a Superbowl. You just step back and absorb, buddy.


There's not even any point in trying to defend myself from straight up told lies.

RaiderH8r
01-20-2010, 12:59 PM
Good fans or bad fans, these are pro athletes and it is their job to win, the fan situation should never be an excuse. If they lost because of fans then every single player and coach should be fired - the fans are not there for the benefit of the team, the team has no right to expect anything from the fans - but on the contrary the fans have every right to expect the team to do their utmost.

If this team wins or loses because of anything I do as a fan then I should be getting a paycheck along with the rest of them.

broncocalijohn
01-20-2010, 01:05 PM
You should see some fans from other stadiums then. Bronco fans are excellent fans, regardless of how critical they are of their team.

When we got the new stadium, I am sure us season ticket holders loved the cup holders (and us south standers got seats instead of benches). Of course we paid double from the previous year for the stadium perks. We also lost the blue collar attitude and the thundering metal sounds that came from the south stands. Bowlen got what he wanted in the luxury boxes for his Fortune 500 friends but he lost a lot of soul in closing Mile High and bringing in Invesco. Home field advantage is lost in Denver right now.

Taco John
01-20-2010, 01:18 PM
Do we know if this is really when he became a fan? I have a feeling half this board is made of people like this.

My childhood aspiration was to work in the marketing department for the Denver Broncos. Actually, I wanted to play for the Denver Broncos - but reality sunk in pretty early that I was not destined for a career in pro ball. So I studied communication instead. I went to school in the dawning of the internet with a passion for the Denver Broncos. In one of my media classes, our term project was to put together a business plan and budget for a media organization. Most people just chose generic ones - like a local newspaper, television or radio station. I handed in a term project for something called "The Orange Mane." Life and opportunity too me in another direction, but I never gave up on the idea of it, and this place is now in its tenth year.

People can question my fanhood all that they want. I'm not threatened by it. I know who I am, and my experiences as a Broncos fan. But this is a discussion forum and everyone is welcome to their judgements - including their judgements about me. So have at it!

BroncoBuff
01-20-2010, 01:28 PM
Is that '08 or '09?

Gotta tell you, I regretted freezing my ass off for the Buffalo game.

Yeah, that was horrible too ... the Buffalo game was right about even with the Raider loss. I suppose you can argue that at least Josh gave us a wild 6-0 ride before we stumbled across the finish line.

Hulamau
01-20-2010, 01:28 PM
I don't care if it's McDaniels, Nolan, Pees, or whoever.

All I care about is getting the most out of the drafts (including last year) because all our problems from the trenches to staying competitive to beating division rivals at home can be fixed if we draft well like the perennial playoff teams.

If McDaniels can do that in his first three years here and win: Great!

If he can't? Then he can **** off and join the sh*theap full of other young coaches that couldn't get it done.

Basically I give him the deal I saw with Shanahan in 2006. I gave Shanahan three years to deliver and yes he drafted extremely well for offense but failed to win and fix the DL. So I can't feel too bad he was shown the door.

Same goes for McDaniels. He gets three years or until his contract expires in 2011.

Thats fair enough.

The move on Nolan now may well be a good move on both sides part. When both parties obviously realized Nolan wasn't long for the Broncos in any event ... something I felt strongly about last Spring when we hired he was a just canned Head coach who was bitter about leaving SF and now grabbing a good gig with a young whippersnapper on familiar turf in Denver while he sorted out and cultivates more lucrative options.

I never felt Nolan was a long term deal here ... one to two seasons tops before he got another offer. As such, Josh wants to win ASAP and might as well get a long term DC on board who can build and ride this thing to the SB with.

Reports now that Nolan was likely contacted by Miami and then jumped at it just proves my point. He's a good DC but I never got the feeling he was overly loyal to the Broncos nor had long range plans here.

Better Josh get a guy who he knows works well with him and they have a consistent philosophy to go into this FA and draft period and the coming few years.

Nolan was 18-37 in four years in SF. he had a prickly demeanor from all reports in SF, and was a little tightly wound.

A big part of our 7th rank D stats come from the first six dominating games .. and Credit Nolan for pulling that off. .. but once teams had some tape on what we were doing there simply were not many good defensive adjustments in the second half of the season when we really needed it.

Some of the blitzes in the run game killed us late. A factor Josh even admitted wasn't smart football.

jhns
01-20-2010, 01:37 PM
. But this is a discussion forum and everyone is welcome to their judgements - including their judgements about me. So have at it!

My judgement is that people who think they can say who is and isn't a fan are pretty full of themselves. I mean, don't you have to be on Gods level to determine such a thing?

Anyways, I would say the new stadium and all of those ugly ass tailgating ******s that try to run everyone off are the two big reasons we lost home field advantage.

TheDave
01-20-2010, 01:46 PM
I just love all these superfan dick measuring contests...

TailgateNut
01-20-2010, 01:59 PM
do we know if this is really when he became a fan? i have a feeling half this board is made of people like this.


^this^

RaiderH8r
01-20-2010, 02:00 PM
I just love all these superfan dick measuring contests...

That's the truth. I whipped mine out but that MooseGuy totally had a bigger one so I'm falling down the fan ladder. ****.

RaiderH8r
01-20-2010, 02:01 PM
^this^

*****ZZZZZZZZIIIIPPPPPP********

RIGHT NOW, WHIP'EM OUT!! WHO'S GOT THE BIGGEST BRONCOS FANDOM? WHO'S GOT IT? MINE MEASURES LARGE AND IN CHARGE. I AM RAIDERH8R, BIGGEST BRONCO FAN IN ALL THE LAND AND ALL OTHER BRONCO MESSAGE BOARD POSTERS ARE INFERIOR TO ME AND MY BRONCO FANDOM. ALL OF YOU SHOULD FIND DIFFERENT TEAMS WHEN YOU DISAGREE WITH MY AWESOMITUDINAL FANDOM!!! CLEAN THIS PLACE OUT FOR MY BRAND OF FAN!!!

Christ.


...

Popps
01-20-2010, 02:22 PM
There's not even any point in trying to defend myself from straight up told lies.

Sure, bro. You didn't start gutless or tell us we were fools for discussing Shanahan's replacement the DAY before he was replaced.

I'll save you the embarrassment of linking yet again.

Another great thread, though. I'm sure you'll find some way to spin this in your favor when things show improvement.

Hell, if we start winning, it'll probably be because of this thread and you blowing the lid off of FistPumpGate!!


Hilarious!

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 02:29 PM
Look, Rohirrim... sure, you've been a fan since franchise day-one. Sure, you're older and infinitely wiser.

But, you just sit back and let Taco and his 10 years of Broncos experience tell you how to be a fan. O.K. buddy?

Close your mouth, and learn from his wisdom...

-Gutless Drunk
-You people are idiots, Shanahan will never be fired
-Fist-pumpgate caused global warming
-Hillis=Walter Peyton
-Griese is the same as Brady

The list is endless. So much to learn, so little time.

Less talking and more learning. Taco has been a fan since around the time we won a Superbowl. You just step back and absorb, buddy.

Too harsh. Too harsh. I climbed on the bandwagon really in 1977. I started out a Rams fan in high school and then, in the Army, when I was transferred to Ft. Carson in 1974 I started following the Broncos. In '77, I got caught up in Orange Crush fever and the Broncos became my favorite AFC team. Once the biatch got hold of the Rams and moved them out of L.A., I said farewell to the Rams. So, it's not day one. I don't feel like anybody is trying to tell anybody how to be a fan. I think there are some major disagreements over some of the most recent issues to affect the team. I often wonder what it would have been like if the Mane existed when Reeves drafted Maddox. I remember this town went ****ing berserk when that happened. The gutless drunk knew what to do about that. Adios, Reeves. We're all fans (except for Bob who is a clinging particle of putrid jock strap slime). We just don't agree. No problemo. :kiss:

chex
01-20-2010, 02:36 PM
This thread is worthless without charts.

Popps
01-20-2010, 02:39 PM
Too harsh. Too harsh. I climbed on the bandwagon really in 1977. I started out a Rams fan in high school and then

BANDWAGON FAN!!! GET HIM!!!!!! !Booya!

The gutless drunk knew what to do about that. Adios, Reeves. We're all fans (except for Bob who is a clinging particle of putrid jock strap slime). We just don't agree. No problemo. :kiss:

You've still forgotten more than he'll ever know about the game. Him arguing with you is comical.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 02:56 PM
My childhood aspiration was to work in the marketing department for the Denver Broncos. Actually, I wanted to play for the Denver Broncos - but reality sunk in pretty early that I was not destined for a career in pro ball. So I studied communication instead. I went to school in the dawning of the internet with a passion for the Denver Broncos. In one of my media classes, our term project was to put together a business plan and budget for a media organization. Most people just chose generic ones - like a local newspaper, television or radio station. I handed in a term project for something called "The Orange Mane." Life and opportunity too me in another direction, but I never gave up on the idea of it, and this place is now in its tenth year.

People can question my fanhood all that they want. I'm not threatened by it. I know who I am, and my experiences as a Broncos fan. But this is a discussion forum and everyone is welcome to their judgements - including their judgements about me. So have at it!

I would have been surprised if that was case. I just wanted to know if Popps was speaking from knowledge on the subject.

MplsBronco
01-20-2010, 03:01 PM
Too harsh. Too harsh. I climbed on the bandwagon really in 1977. I started out a Rams fan in high school and then, in the Army, when I was transferred to Ft. Carson in 1974 I started following the Broncos. In '77, I got caught up in Orange Crush fever and the Broncos became my favorite AFC team. Once the biatch got hold of the Rams and moved them out of L.A., I said farewell to the Rams. So, it's not day one. I don't feel like anybody is trying to tell anybody how to be a fan. I think there are some major disagreements over some of the most recent issues to affect the team. I often wonder what it would have been like if the Mane existed when Reeves drafted Maddox. I remember this town went ****ing berserk when that happened. The gutless drunk knew what to do about that. Adios, Reeves. We're all fans (except for Bob who is a clinging particle of putrid jock strap slime). We just don't agree. No problemo. :kiss:

Yeah, born in Garden Grove, CA in '72 and moved to Denver in '79. Was a huge Rams fan but fell in love with the Broncos when Elway came to town. I wouldn't trade the experience of watching Elway and the excitement he brought on weekly basis for anything else. I wouldn't even trade in the SB losses because those made the SB wins that much sweeter. No matter what happens, it will never be like again and that makes me sad.

Popps
01-20-2010, 03:02 PM
My childhood aspiration was to work in the marketing department for the Denver Broncos. !

Oh man.


Welcome to Brian Griese field!!!

Don't forget to grab a "Gutless Burger" at the concession stands, folks!

montrose
01-20-2010, 03:06 PM
I wish the out-of-towners could watch McDaniels weekly show. Rightfully or wrongfully it's about the only peek he allows the media to have into his thinking but it's quite insightfull. Taco especially, I think you'd be interested to watch as he addresses some of the things you discuss. He specifically got into the rivalries with the Raiders and Chiefs - giving nuggets of history I wasn't even aware of. The week of the 2nd Chargers game, he spoke about how there was an increased focus because it was a division game - then before the Raiders game he spoke about how it was "Raiders Week" and there was a buzz in the locker room he hadn't felt before. I think McD could do a lot for his public image if he opened up a lot more and did what Steve Wyche of NFL.com suggested - let some of the other Broncos decision makers (and Wyche said there are other ones, McD has a lot of help) speak to the media so that he's not the sole messenger of the Broncos.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 03:08 PM
Yeah, born in Garden Grove, CA in '72 and moved to Denver in '79. Was a huge Rams fan but fell in love with the Broncos when Elway came to town. I wouldn't trade the experience of watching Elway and the excitement he brought on weekly basis for anything else. I wouldn't even trade in the SB losses because those made the SB wins that much sweeter. No matter what happens, it will never be like again and that makes me sad.

Those were good times. I actually disliked Elway for years, after the whole Baltimore thing. I thought he was a punk for refusing to go where he was drafted. Then came The Drive and I thought, "Hey, this kid's not so bad." Ha!

I think the worst football experience I've ever had was being in California for the San Fran SB and being the only guy in an orange jersey in a house full of Niner jerseys. That still leaves an ugly taste.

Popps
01-20-2010, 03:09 PM
I wish the out-of-towners could watch McDaniels weekly show. Rightfully or wrongfully it's about the only peek he allows the media to have into his thinking but it's quite insightfull. Taco especially, I think you'd be interested to watch as he addresses some of the things you discuss. He specifically got into the rivalries with the Raiders and Chiefs - giving nuggets of history I wasn't even aware of. The week of the 2nd Chargers game, he spoke about how there was an increased focus because it was a division game - then before the Raiders game he spoke about how it was "Raiders Week" and there was a buzz in the locker room he hadn't felt before. I think McD could do a lot for his public image if he opened up a lot more and did what Steve Wyche of NFL.com suggested - let some of the other Broncos decision makers (and Wyche said there are other ones, McD has a lot of help) speak to the media so that he's not the sole messenger of the Broncos.


Is there anywhere to watch these? Would love to see them.

I truly believe this guy would cut off fingers until they were gone for a Broncos win, and then start in on toes. If anything, I think he's probably TOO insanely committed to this team winning. I guess that's why it's tough for me to hate him, even if things have been a bit turbulent.

Popps
01-20-2010, 03:11 PM
I think the worst football experience I've ever had was being in California for the San Fran SB and being the only guy in an orange jersey in a house full of Niner jerseys. That still leaves an ugly taste.


I wore my jersey to Candlestick in 93. A few years later, but people still gave me plenty of **** about it.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 03:26 PM
I wore my jersey to Candlestick in 93. A few years later, but people still gave me plenty of **** about it.

I spent the second half out in the garage, drunk, playing darts with some friends and saying things like, "Football sucks."

Meck77
01-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Anybody win yet? I'll let you all fight this one out.

Requiem
01-20-2010, 03:30 PM
I wore a Brett Favre jersey to school once. I lost a bet when the Broncos fell to the Vikes back when Steve B. was quarterbacking us and had his hand ****ed up and had to paint my hair yellow and wear a Cris Carter jersey the whole day too.

Boobs McGee
01-20-2010, 04:07 PM
Yeah, born in Garden Grove, CA in '72 and moved to Denver in '79. Was a huge Rams fan but fell in love with the Broncos when Elway came to town. I wouldn't trade the experience of watching Elway and the excitement he brought on weekly basis for anything else. I wouldn't even trade in the SB losses because those made the SB wins that much sweeter. No matter what happens, it will never be like again and that makes me sad.

LOL at you guys...I was born in Fountain Valley, grew up a Rams fan with my dad (he was in the pit band for a little while). Then they left, and I moved to Colorado with the family, and the Broncos love affair hasn't stopped since!

My dad's a recent convert (he still lives in the city of orange, which I just realized is quite ironic, ha!), and I'm slowly turning my sisters to the mile high way as well haha.

Florida_Bronco
01-20-2010, 05:40 PM
What a dumb thread.

oubronco
01-20-2010, 05:51 PM
I wore a Brett Favre jersey to school once. I lost a bet when the Broncos fell to the Vikes back when Steve B. was quarterbacking us and had his hand ****ed up and had to paint my hair yellow and wear a Cris Carter jersey the whole day too.

Ouch ROFL!

Popps
01-20-2010, 05:52 PM
What a dumb thread.

:spit:

I guess that's the easiest way to put it.

theAPAOps5
01-20-2010, 06:19 PM
I just have to ask a question that has been bothering me. Taco do you ever freaking sleep man. You posting hours are all over the place!

Ok carry on with the discussion.

Florida_Bronco
01-20-2010, 06:27 PM
:spit:

I guess that's the easiest way to put it.

At this point, I think it's the only way to put it. These are the same fools who basically demanded that Josh keep the WCO/ZBS because it's what Shanny ran and got the SB wins with.

They're melting down over an 8-8 season and losses to the Raiders and Chiefs when that's exactly what we did last year (7-9 if the Football God's didn't give Cutler the break of a lifetime) and suffered a greater loss to the Raiders.

It's become blatantly clear to me that some people are just not going to accept Josh McDaniels because he is an outsider. Shanahan had Bronco roots so they were willing to give him a pass for alot of things, but McD doesn't get that luxury.

Whatever. It's just going to make it that much more enjoyable when Josh has this team fighting for a Super Bowl year after year. :thanku:

24champ
01-20-2010, 06:32 PM
What a dumb thread.

I agree. I am not going to question Taco's fandom....but I have to say I think his posts on the Broncos have fallen off a cliff.

No shred of proof on the following...

-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

-As such Nolan's energy was effectively split between doing what McDaniels wants and doing what he (Nolan) thought was needed.

-The team goes on a 2-8 run



....just speculation based on speculation. zowie!

Florida_Bronco
01-20-2010, 06:37 PM
I agree. I am not going to question Taco's fandom....but I have to say I think his posts on the Broncos have fallen off a cliff. They have, greatly. Taco was never much of an X's and O's type poster (which is fine) but he always used to have pretty reasonable, level headed takes.

Not anymore. I seriously think that when Shanahan left town, he took Taco, BPC's and BroncoBuff's brains with him.


No shred of proof on the following...

....just speculation based on speculation. zowie! Yeah, it's ridiculous. Anyone who really paid attention could see that this aggressive blitzing defense was not the norm for Nolan. If anything, the facts suggest that it was McDaniel's who had more control over the defense to begin with and then slowly turned more of that over to Nolan.

Bronco Yoda
01-20-2010, 06:59 PM
I'm going to take the long way to get to my point, so bear with me.

Deconstructing the Nolan situation, the narrative that is developing out of this whole thing appears to go a lot like the following:

-The 6-0 run, Nolan had autonomy to run the defense the way he saw fit.

-Adjustments were made during the bye week specific to what McDaniels wanted to see.

-As such Nolan's energy was effectively split between doing what McDaniels wants and doing what he (Nolan) thought was needed.

-The team goes on a 2-8 run

-Nolan starts whispering to his friends in search of a life preserver


Obviously, it was a mutual parting. Josh literally can't have anyone around who has a lot of preconceived ideas of their own about how the defense should be executed. He has a particular way he wants it done and he demands someone who will execute his way without resistance. Nolan was clearly not that guy. Pees probably is. Or not. Something didn't go right in New England - whatever that was, he's on the market now.

Looking forward, it's clear to me that Josh has a system that he believes is going to turn this club into a dynasty, and that he's going to be relentless in pursuing his vision to his exact details. The challenge that he's going to have is that he's so young that people like Nolan who have been around the block a few times are going to come with their experiences and react accordingly. In order for Josh to implement his system to his details, he's going to have to hire "blank slate" coaches that will be more prone to taking direction and then implementing that direction precisely. Otherwise, this is going to become a recurring issue - which I suspect it will. I have a hunch that we're going to go through a lot of coordinators and positional coaches, for better or worse. I just hope that the players become the source of stability to handle what looks might be a continuous cycle of instability.

This explains to me the entire weakness of the Belichick coaching tree and why so many bad apples fall off of it. Successful Belichick system coaches have to fit a certain type of personality profile - one where the coach is more comfortable taking direction than giving it. And once they get promoted to the job of a head coach, they're outside of their comfort zone because they are now the source of the direction, and it just doesn't come as natural to them. I look at Mangini and Weiss and that's exactly what I see: very bright guys who are not as comfortable and natural at being the source of team direction as they are in being a conduit of it. (They of course can do it - they're coaches. But I don't believe it's as natural to them)

But that's not what I see in Josh at all. I see a guy who is absolutely comfortable with giving that direction. He was a blank slate by virtue of being so young, and was probably eager as a beaver to do whatever Belichick wanted him to do to the exact details recognizing the tremendous opportunity the he was living. I can only imagine how stoked he must have been to have worked his way into that position. He seems to have soaked it all up, every last drop.

The bottom line for me as a fan is this: we have a brilliant coach here with a specific plan who is young and inexperienced, and may fatally be so in order to execute his plan. Young, inexperienced is one thing. But add inflexible to it, and it's not a recipe for locker-room harmony. Everyone can relate to the potential fatality that concept.

But all that said, Josh is not going to be young and inexperienced forever. I think that the guy is going to be a great coach in this league someday. Right now, he seems to be a work in progress - and I can accept that.

But there are things that I can't and wont accept. Since we as fans are invested in his development, I hope that he'll take some time this offseason to get familiar with the culture and history that come with this team, and understand what it means to BE a Denver Bronco. The losses at home, particularly to the Raiders and Chiefs, to me, reflect a team that was not emotionally invested in the outcome of that game in the same way that the fans are. Josh needs to get up to speed quickly on the historical subtexts that exists with these matchups, or he's going to have a difficult time keeping people "won over" as he cuts his teeth and builds his team.

Simply put: The Denver Broncos don't lose to the Chiefs or the Raiders at home. Even if you've lost the entire locker room, and every last player on the team is planning to blaze a trail out of town the following offseason, The Denver Broncos coach has got to be able to get the team to muster up enough pride to protect our stadium, our fan base, our franchise from these losses. He needs to recognize that it absolutely means something that we were among the Raiders and the Chiefs only wins for their entire season.

If I could give Josh a few other tips:

--We don't cheer like wild men when we beat the Patriots because the Denver Broncos own the Patriots. They are just another W that we've come to expect throughout the years.

--Don't bother talking smack with Chargers players or their fans. The minute they go down in the standings, half of their fan base dries up and heads to the beach. Just go out and beat them. Or at least play them tough. For some reason, it's much easier to forgive a loss to the Chargers, though I wouldn't get too comfortable with that thought.

--To take an analogy from Star Wars, when Anakin Skywalker posthumously switched from the dark side to the light side, he removed the hood. This, of course, can be overlooked, but beating the Raiders and Chiefs at home becomes an absolute requirement then. See! Give and take.

What else should Josh McDaniels understand about BEING a Denver Bronco?

Thanks for writing this TJ. This should really be on the front page!

I was going to write something very similar awhile back but was so frustrated with the whole thing that I turned off the notebook and deleted it halfway through.

I couldn't agree more TJ. If I could have just 1 min. with Josh, I'd simply tell him that we DO NOT LOSE TO THE FADE AND CHEFS AT HOME. Period!

If I were Bowlen I would have told him that if you lose these games next year YOU"RE FIRED. I don't care what your record is. I'm not kidding either. You either get the message or you don't.

It's just something we don't tolerate. When the schedule comes out you block out both these games with a red pen. These are the weeks that you ask you boys to give blood. I don't care if you personally have to trip a guy running down the sideline :wiggle:.

These are our hated rivals. And it was clear that he wasn't really with THIS yet.

That's the one thing I will always appreciate about Shanahan. He hated our rivals as much as we do.

Florida_Bronco
01-20-2010, 07:05 PM
That's the one thing I will always appreciate about Shanahan. He hated our rivals as much as we do.

Yeah, but did you want him fired when he lost to the Raiders and Chiefs, much less at home?

Seriously, I want to obliterate those teams just as much as any hardcore Bronco fan, but you have to realize that they hate us too and we're not going to win all of them.

Bronco Yoda
01-20-2010, 07:08 PM
Yeah, but did you want him fired when he lost to the Raiders and Chiefs, much less at home?

Seriously, I want to obliterate those teams just as much as any hardcore Bronco fan, but you have to realize that they hate us too and we're not going to win all of them.

You obviously don't get IT either. Do I really have to spell it out for you?

Florida_Bronco
01-20-2010, 07:31 PM
You obviously don't get IT either. Do I really have to spell it out for you?

I guess so.

24champ
01-20-2010, 07:34 PM
You obviously don't get IT either. Do I really have to spell it out for you?

I think he gets IT.

What is wrong with the premise of this thread is the same premise I disagree with when it comes to fans attacking others about who is a true Bronco. Like Montrose stated earlier in this thread, if you watched the local McDaniels show at all, you would see that he DOES care about beating our rivals. It's in his blood, he wants to win. Simple as that.

To say he doesn't care or understand the ramifications of the rivalry games is grossly ignorant.

Bronco Yoda
01-20-2010, 07:42 PM
Well, I didn't see it. I didn't feel it from him and neither did many other fans.

You know that crazy look that Josh had in his eye when he beat the Patriots?
You know that special Wild Horses he pulled out for that game. And you just know that he had plan B,C, & D there ready if it didn't work.
You know that intensity he showed after beating Billecheat?
... that feeling you got that he'd done ANYTHING to beat them. Hell, he'd even put Hillis in if it meant a victory.

That's what I want from him when going up against our hated rivals.

I don't want talk... I want action. I want some emotional investment. I want a chief and Raider hater!

Bronco Yoda
01-20-2010, 07:45 PM
I guess we'll have to pull a "Fast times at Ridgemont high". You know... the car thing...

24champ
01-20-2010, 07:54 PM
Well, I didn't see it. I didn't feel it from him and neither did many other fans.

You know that crazy look that Josh had in his eye when he beat the Patriots?
You know that special Wild Horses he pulled out for that game. And you just know that he had plan B,C, & D there ready if it didn't work.
You know that intensity he showed after beating Billecheat?
... that feeling you got that he'd done ANYTHING to beat them. Hell, he'd even put Hillis in if it meant a victory.

That's what I want from him when going up against our hated rivals.

I don't want talk... I want action. I want some emotional investment. I want a chief and Raider hater!

Every gameplan is different, but the effort is always the same from McDaniels. It's ignorant to think otherwise. I criticize McDaniels on some things, and I've been vocal about those mistakes.

Criticizing McDaniels for his lack of passion against rivals is just baffling to me. This is a coach that cusses out his coaching staff, his own team. Then there is this...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tcrl7BPY-64&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tcrl7BPY-64&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

McDaniel's got some things to work on, his dedication to the Broncos is not one of them.

UberBroncoMan
01-20-2010, 08:02 PM
This thread has gutless drunk potential.

As for opinions... I agree with some of what TacoJohn has said, others maybe not.

Josh does need a lot of work though. Hopefully he's humble enough to look in the mirror.

Rohirrim
01-20-2010, 08:35 PM
I do agree with one thing: Josh has to understand, we do not lose to the Chiefs and/or the Raiders in our own house.

It just isn't done, Josh. tsk tsk

extralife
01-20-2010, 08:44 PM
Ah, you must have a college degree? Because only people who spent their time in college would come out of the wood works to make a point like this.

I already said the word - and I'm in college with a 3.9 - studying Business Economics... at a University not a Junior college... and I had a glitch in my memory. But this is the internet, I could be lying. LOL

In the real world - education only does to the middle class. Having an education doesn't actually give you power over someone - probably credibility in some cases, but not larger ones. Like working for someone?

Maybe in smaller cities/towns... but when you're with the big boys - education doesn't mean a thing. I suggest you go take a look at forbes top 100 (or is 400?) list, and check the average net worth of those with a college degree and those without one. It's not about the degree or what you're studying for that matter, and this is what college graduates completely miss.

Academic entitlement... keep smiling buddy.

when did I mention school

also why do you think money gives power, rather than the opposite?

(I graduated with a 4.0 so I guess I win your penis contest anyway lolololol)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2010, 09:23 PM
I do agree with one thing: Josh has to understand, we do not lose to the Chiefs and/or the Raiders in our own house.

It just isn't done, Josh. tsk tsk

Except for when it is done. Like '08.

Dagmar
01-20-2010, 09:42 PM
I just have to ask a question that has been bothering me. Taco do you ever freaking sleep man. You posting hours are all over the place!

Ok carry on with the discussion.

That was my first thought when I read it this morning... 3:26am!! Maybe the pumpkin was keeping him up.

DBroncos4life
01-20-2010, 10:41 PM
Except for when it is done. Like '08.

Whatever happened to the 08 coach after that year?

broncocalijohn
01-20-2010, 10:56 PM
LOL at you guys...I was born in Fountain Valley, grew up a Rams fan with my dad (he was in the pit band for a little while). Then they left, and I moved to Colorado with the family, and the Broncos love affair hasn't stopped since!

My dad's a recent convert (he still lives in the city of orange, which I just realized is quite ironic, ha!), and I'm slowly turning my sisters to the mile high way as well haha.

You guys all left me. My kids were born in Fountain Valley too. I was a Rams fan (my second team and local) and would go to Rams games if the Broncos werent on. Even when they sucked in the 90s, I would go. Once that bitch (murderer) took the team, I havent paid one ioda attention to them.
I havent caught up to this thread since the morning. Has TJ got his A$$ handed to him....again?