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oubronco
01-15-2010, 04:11 PM
Analysis: McDaniels faces familiar decision: youth or veterans
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/15/2010 01:00:00 AM MST


Talk to the old salts around the league about free agency and the draft, and the term "muddy the waters" will often come up.

Basically, that's the choice of signing a veteran player in free agency for a specific role rather than developing and playing a younger player in the same spot.

Because a veteran player takes practice snaps through the week and playing time on game day from a younger guy, the thought is it may take longer to develop a team's draft picks or second- and third-year players if there isn't a concerted effort to play them.

Hence you "muddy" the developmental waters with older players who may not be more talented or in the team's long-term plans, but they simply make fewer mistakes in the short term.

In his time with the Broncos, Mike Shanahan often muddied the waters when it came to young players. Shanahan, who took plenty of criticism for his work in the draft, also let quality young players go at times after giving them little chance to prove themselves because he preferred to work with more experienced players who didn't have the growing pains.

Domenik Hixon, who has made a nice career for himself since the Broncos tossed him aside, will always be a rather tidy example of this.

But it is exactly the spot the Broncos find themselves in right now. They have some young players, like guard Seth Olsen, safety Darcel McBath, outside linebacker Robert Ayers, defensive lineman Chris Baker and perhaps even wide receiver Kenny McKinley when he recovers from his knee surgery, who are in that all-important second offseason with the team.

They are also in position to at least compete for larger roles.

Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has shown himself to be a coach who prefers age and experience at times. Like most coaches, he detests mistakes, and veteran players will always make fewer of them.

McDaniels surrendered a draft pick for veteran defensive linemen Le Kevin Smith in training camp after looking at his guys. McDaniels signed cornerback Ty Law during the season because he preferred Law coming in off the street over his second-round pick Alphonso Smith or rookie Tony Carter in the slot.

McDaniels continually used LaMont Jordan as a third running back over a player such as second-year back Peyton Hillis, and in team meetings often lauded Jordan for making the right choices in the running game despite the fact Jordan carried the ball just five total times in the Broncos' last 11 games.

But after another 8-8 finish, the organization's fourth consecutive year on the outside looking in at the playoff bracket, the Broncos are now in a position to choose their direction.

They can be a team committed to the draft and then working with and playing those younger players. Or they can be a team that plays the draft picks who excel immediately and fills in the rest with an ever-changing cast of veteran free agents.

Like their running game this season, the Broncos were kind of stuck in the middle in 2009. They were kind of committed to young players and kind of reliant on late veteran additions such as Law, Le Kevin Smith, Vonnie Holliday and Russ Hochstein.

Former Colts coach Tony Dungy, who won at least 12 games in each of his last six seasons on the sideline and won at least 10 games in 10 seasons overall, always expressed the need and desire to play young players in the era of free agency.

And the Colts have rarely participated in the whirlwind of huge contracts to players they didn't draft.

"We're not afraid to play young guys," Dungy always said.

And for Dungy and the Colts, that meant a commitment to those young guys in practice, in games. They consistently made good choices in April and pushed them along to be ready to play in September.

In the uncertain labor landscape of the league, in which teams can't say for sure whether a salary cap will exist again down the road or what it will look like if it does, a team committed to its own players, its own draft picks, will more easily be able to adjust to any future labor deal.

McDaniels has already talked about the importance of this April's draft for his program. And as he prepares to enter the second year on his four-year deal, he'll be facing the choice of moving forward with youth, or, in the words of several personnel executives, "muddying the waters" and then simply trying to see what he can catch.

Jeff Legwold: 303-954-2359 or jlegwold@denverpost.com



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14195168#ixzz0cjHqpDB7

TheReverend
01-15-2010, 04:50 PM
Usually Legwold's articles are significantly better than this... can't win em all I suppose

orinjkrush
01-15-2010, 05:52 PM
i thought this was an interesting angle.

Popps
01-15-2010, 06:04 PM
I think the article is spot-on in some regards. We certainly had problems developing talent over the past decade, and our FA track record was abysmal.

However, during Shanny's heyday... there was definitely a mix of young and old players, even though we were an older team. Guys like TD, Mobley, Pryce and others played big roles.

Patriots were the same way. They developed players but weren't afraid to stick a guy like Harrison or Seau out there, and did so with success.

To me, you've absolutely got to have a mix of both. You've got to be effective in FA AND in the draft.

I thought McD played the FA field very well last season. I expect a repeat, provided the rules are such that we can afford to sign guys. (i.e. labor deal.)

The Joker
01-15-2010, 06:38 PM
Generally, signing big money free agents is a bad idea. How many of them actually perform well enough to justify the huge money you have to throw at them to get them to sign?

If you want superstars on your team, learn to draft well.

FA is great for filling in needs if you know what you're doing though. You should be able to find decent players for relatively affordable pay that can come in and improve the team and provide good depth. We did a very nice job of this last year, guys like Goodman, Hill, Davis, Holliday and Gaffney were all nice pickups. Hopefully we can find some similar type of deals this year, preferably on the lines.

I'm confident Moreno is going to start looking like a 1st round back pretty soon, and I think Ayers is going to be a good OLB by the time all is said and done.

Smith is a worry, because he essentially showed nothing last season. There's still time for him, but he'd want to make big leaps this offseason.

Hamrob
01-15-2010, 08:00 PM
I think the article is spot-on in some regards. We certainly had problems developing talent over the past decade, and our FA track record was abysmal.

However, during Shanny's heyday... there was definitely a mix of young and old players, even though we were an older team. Guys like TD, Mobley, Pryce and others played big roles.

Patriots were the same way. They developed players but weren't afraid to stick a guy like Harrison or Seau out there, and did so with success.

To me, you've absolutely got to have a mix of both. You've got to be effective in FA AND in the draft.

I thought McD played the FA field very well last season. I expect a repeat, provided the rules are such that we can afford to sign guys. (i.e. labor deal.)Perhaps it really comes down to...who's behind center. The heydays were Elway....since then, mediocracy.

Let's see McDaniels do it with Orton. I'd love to see it. It won't happen.

watermock
01-15-2010, 08:13 PM
FA is great for filling in needs if you know what you're doing though. You should be able to find decent players for relatively affordable pay that can come in and improve the team and provide good depth. We did a very nice job of this last year, guys like Goodman, Hill, Davis, Holliday and Gaffney were all nice pickups. Hopefully we can find some similar type of deals this year, preferably on the lines.

I'm confident Moreno is going to start looking like a 1st round back pretty soon, and I think Ayers is going to be a good OLB by the time all is said and done.

Smith is a worry, because he essentially showed nothing last season. There's still time for him, but he'd want to make big leaps this offseason.

Wow. It's amazing how ignorant you are.

tsiguy96
01-15-2010, 08:15 PM
Wow. It's amazing how ignorant you are.

jesus mock, youre post actually get WORSE by the day. you literally cant argue with anything he said, so you just call the first person whos name you can read without squinting too hard ignorant.

watermock
01-15-2010, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McSchism
FA is great for filling in needs if you know what you're doing though. You should be able to find decent players for relatively affordable pay that can come in and improve the team and provide good depth. We did a very nice job of this last year, guys like Goodman, Hill, Davis, Holliday and Gaffney were all nice pickups. Hopefully we can find some similar type of deals this year, preferably on the lines.

I'm confident Moreno is going to start looking like a 1st round back pretty soon, and I think Ayers is going to be a good OLB by the time all is said and done.

Smith is a worry, because he essentially showed nothing last season. There's still time for him, but he'd want to make big leaps this offseason.

Wow. It's amazing how ignorant you are.

watermock
01-15-2010, 08:28 PM
Ayers and Smith and Moreno are going to become p;ayers, how about Quinn?

Or the crap we drafted day 2?

Your full of crap like our coach.

bombay
01-15-2010, 08:42 PM
If the choice comes down to one or the other: youth. This team isn't that close. It's unfair to Champ and Dawk, but we just aren't near championship talent.

watermock
01-15-2010, 09:09 PM
If the choice comes down to one or the other: youth. This team isn't that close. It's unfair to Champ and Dawk, but we just aren't near championship talent.

Nevermind that.

It's incredible how stupid some fans are.

Popps
01-15-2010, 09:23 PM
Perhaps it really comes down to...who's behind center. The heydays were Elway....since then, mediocracy.
.

Maybe, but Elway still needed a full slate of weapons around him and a defense to win a championship.

Certainly, if you have the luxury of a true franchise QB, it's an easier journey.

But, there's more than one path to a SB. Some HOF QBs have won SBs, some great ones... and just some good ones. And, even a couple that were just good for a year or two.

~Crash~
01-15-2010, 09:25 PM
If the choice comes down to one or the other: youth. This team isn't that close. It's unfair to Champ and Dawk, but we just aren't near championship talent.

spot on. a rebuild of the middle of the oline is around a year and a half but if you need to get a QB to learn a new system we are talking 4 years to learn it fully to take a d and dissect it .

NFLBRONCO
01-15-2010, 10:05 PM
I need explanations from the unsatisfied crew about McD's. I do think some need a realistic view of the current state of the Broncos. Let's look at this debate clearly

1. When Bowlen interviewed McD's was impressed with his plan so Pat hired him. Do we as fans know what his plan was he explained in that meeting where we there no.

2. Pat wants a SB as the only goal as it should be but, at the same time if he felt we were close to that I doubt Shanny would be in Washington today he felt change cause team was a mess that needed new ideas.

3. Then the Cutler thing Bowlen was the one that got fed up so trade was made. So yeah Bowlen is going to fire his new HC in 1 or 2 years when we downgraded a team even more. I think Bowlen will give him longer then haters think he knows this team isn't close it needs rebuilding.

4. If BM is traded even more work is needed.

For these reasons I hope we go the youth route more because we have tons of work to do. I'm cool adding aging vets as fill ins because we have so much more to do.

Paladin
01-15-2010, 10:12 PM
And the gibberish has gotten him nearly 75,000 posts. What a waste of band space.....

Bigdawg26
01-15-2010, 10:23 PM
I think McSchism hit it right on the head. If you want superstars on your team then draft them (i.e. Clady, Dumervil, and Brandon Marshall). We have to do a better job of drafting players. We have struggled with this for about 10 years now of not drafting well and picking up to many miss big FA's (mostly washed up or one year wonders) and not investing in youth and draft picks. Now I do think Ayers is a better 3-4 DE than linebacker and Moreno will be better next year, but Alphoso Smith and Richard Quinn??? C'mon man!!

watermock
01-15-2010, 10:24 PM
I need explanations from the unsatisfied crew about McD's. I do think some need a realistic view of the current state of the Broncos. Let's look at this debate clearly

1. When Bowlen interviewed McD's was impressed with his plan so Pat hired him. Do we as fans know what his plan was he explained in that meeting where we there no.

2. Pat wants a SB as the only goal as it should be but, at the same time if he felt we were close to that I doubt Shanny would be in Washington today he felt change cause team was a mess that needed new ideas.

3. Then the Cutler thing Bowlen was the one that got fed up so trade was made. So yeah Bowlen is going to fire his new HC in 1 or 2 years when we downgraded a team even more. I think Bowlen will give him longer then haters think he knows this team isn't close it needs rebuilding.

4. If BM is traded even more work is needed.

For these reasons I hope we go the youth route more because we have tons of work to do. I'm cool adding aging vets as fill ins because we have so much more to do.

Jesus Christ your a moron.

NFLBRONCO
01-15-2010, 10:27 PM
Jesus Christ your a moron.

LOL Classic Mock nothing to offer as usual

watermock
01-15-2010, 10:35 PM
. When Bowlen interviewed McD's was impressed with his plan so Pat hired him. Do we as fans know what his plan was he explained in that meeting where we there no.


Ha!

NFLBRONCO
01-15-2010, 10:41 PM
Ha!

I doubt the plan was 1 or 2 yr fix with NFL's worst D. Even though it vastly improved most of the year its still miles away.

Now the O is downgraded so its farther away as well big deal build from here.

Cito Pelon
01-16-2010, 08:34 AM
Usually Legwold's articles are significantly better than this... can't win em all I suppose

It was an interesting article. Raises some interestiing points.

Weren't you all excited about Bart Scott in FA? This article raises the question of does the team pursue the big money FA's or trust their drafting? Do they roll the dice on the younger guys, commit to them, or do they bring in vets?

WolfpackGuy
01-16-2010, 09:01 AM
To have long term success, you have to build your team through the draft which means going young.

You also have to keep your "core" players.

Free agency should really just be used to fill a hole, weaken a foe, or push you to the next level.

BroncoBuff
01-16-2010, 09:47 AM
He's already decided, it'll be veterans. Kids Hillis, Scheffler, Marshall, Cutler all gone ... you can't just replace that pool youthful talent overnight.

Not to mention JMFW out, Ty Law in. That's all you need to know.

BroncoBuff
01-16-2010, 09:55 AM
Not to mention JMFW out, Ty Law in. That's all you need to know.

On this move alone ... why shouldn't we think he's a reactionary dumass?

strafen
01-16-2010, 09:57 AM
Usually Legwold's articles are significantly better than this... can't win em all I supposeWTF did he say about McDaniels you didn't like?
Damn!
This ridiculous!
The guy wrote an excellent article, very informative and interesting in my opinion, nothing knew, really, but with examples of what more renowned coaches have done in managing team youth and veteran players, and you take offense because the article may have exposed McDaniels?
I don't think he was criticizing your coach.
Explain what is it the he said that offended you?
What did he say about McDdaniels you didn't like?

bombay
01-16-2010, 10:01 AM
He's already decided, it'll be veterans. Kids Hillis, Scheffler, Marshall, Cutler all gone ... you can't just replace that pool youthful talent overnight.

Not to mention JMFW out, Ty Law in. That's all you need to know.

Three of the four players you mention will be playing in their 5th season next year. They aren't 'kids'. That's an average NFL career.

SportinOne
01-16-2010, 10:02 AM
It's really not that difficult. He sees these players every day. He knows their strengths, their weaknesses, and probably most importantly, their personalities.

He gets rid of:
Players that pay poorly and don't have room to improve
Berger

He picks up:
Draft picks
Veterans that fill a role and don't wreck team chemistry

Then, after you have stockpiled some talent, you let them battle for their positions and you cut the ones you don't like.

Tada

BroncoBuff
01-16-2010, 10:07 AM
Three of the four players you mention will be playing in their 5th season next year. They aren't 'kids'. That's an average NFL career.

NEXT year will be their fifth years.

And if you really think the average lifespan of an NFL player applies to these guys, come see me after four more years. Believe me, all four will be going strong.

And we'll add Eddie Royal to that list ... most promising rookie WR here in years, maybe decades, and Josh chose to gove Jaba Gaffney more touches than him.

No no, he's made his choice, and it's veterans.

SportinOne
01-16-2010, 10:15 AM
Three of the four players you mention will be playing in their 5th season next year. They aren't 'kids'. That's an average NFL career.

Except for the fact that 2 of those players have the talent to play at least 10 years in the league, and Hillis might just have it, too. The point is that we would be giving up years of talent for one reason and one reason only: our coach's ego. And, its complete BS. His job as a coach is NOT to be a commissioner. His job is to GET THE MOST OUT OF HIS PLAYERS. Trading away a guy like Cutler or Marshall is basically a concession of defeat on his part, a failure of his effort to perform his basic ****ing job.

Newsflash, players will have egos. They are professional athletes, this is how it works. They are coddled and told they are the best their whole lives.

Every single team has players that don't exactly fall in line, but the coach makes it work. Again, THIS IS HIS JOB. Stop whining, coach. Stop taking the easy way out and just do your mother****ing job. That's all we want is for you to man up, and do your mother****ing job.

bombay
01-16-2010, 10:19 AM
NEXT year will be their fifth years.

And if you really think the average lifespan of an NFL player applies to these guys, come see me after four more years. Believe me, all four will be going strong.

And we'll add Eddie Royal to that list ... most promising rookie WR here in years, maybe decades, and Josh chose to gove Jaba Gaffney more touches than him.

No no, he's made his choice, and it's veterans.


That's what I said. Confusing?

The Joker
01-16-2010, 11:35 AM
On this move alone ... why shouldn't we think he's a reactionary dumass?

Because Jack Williams was ****, maybe?

BroncoBuff
01-16-2010, 11:38 AM
Because Jack Williams was ****, maybe?

I thought he was a real playmaker actually ... just mho.

You really think Ty Law was a good tradeoff? The 5 teams that put in waiver claims on JMFW - within 24 hours - obviously disagree.

The Joker
01-16-2010, 03:03 PM
I thought he was a real playmaker actually ... just mho.

You really think Ty Law was a good tradeoff? The 5 teams that put in waiver claims on JMFW - within 24 hours - obviously disagree.

I don't recall him making a single play his whole time in Denver, not sure where you got that impression from?

Personally don't see what the issue is. He felt Law could be of some use, so he cut a guy who'll probably never amount to anything in the NFL to bring him in.

The MVPlaya
01-16-2010, 03:36 PM
I thought he was a real playmaker actually ... just mho.

You really think Ty Law was a good tradeoff? The 5 teams that put in waiver claims on JMFW - within 24 hours - obviously disagree.

How was Jack a playmaker? He has contributed absolutely nothing in his tenure here.

You're humble opinion isn't quite humble - it's more on the homer side. And - it's stupid at that.

How does your logic make any sense? What does 5 teams putting waiver claims on Jack Williams have anything to do with Law being a good trade off?

I know you didn't know there were teams that wanted Law but he didn't want to play with them. With that being said, Law played good for us. He covered well.

Jack Williams has done nothing but give up plays for the Broncos. The only place he's been popular is on forums.

Some of you fans probably ride on the small bus to school.

barryr
01-16-2010, 04:13 PM
Wow, Hillis, Scheffler, and now Jack Williams. I'm glad some people around here are not part of the Bronco personnel decision making group with the love players who have done nothing in the NFL get. Moreno and Ayers are busts according to some around here after just one season, but the others mentioned who have been around longer in the NFL are destined to be wonderful players. Wow. Looks to me guys like Moreno and Ayers, among others, biggest crime was being drafted by McDaniels since his bashers practically root for those players to become busts. Great way to show your support.

Gob
01-16-2010, 04:20 PM
Wow, Hillis, Scheffler, and now Jack Williams. I'm glad some people around here are not part of the Bronco personnel decision making group with the love players who have done nothing in the NFL get. Moreno and Ayers are busts according to some around here after just one season, but the others mentioned who have been around longer in the NFL are destined to be wonderful players. Wow. Looks to me guys like Moreno and Ayers, among others, biggest crime was being drafted by McDaniels since his bashers practically root for those players to become busts. Great way to show your support.

Thats true. There is no doubt that Hillis can't match Moreno's yard per carry average and production on short yardage situations, Scheffler is a pale imitation of Quinn as an NFL player, and Jack Williams is overrated compared to Fonzie Smith. Anyone who questions McDaniels personnel decisions has to be a hater because the facts are all on McDaniels side.

chrisp
01-17-2010, 01:25 AM
I think the article hit the nail on the head - if you want to be successful in the era of free agency you have to find and develop young talent.

I think the reason why Shanny never really got that was that when he took over the Broncos it was in the very very early days of fre agency when teams hadn't worked it out and good players could be had. These days if a veteran is the real deal he will typically NOT hit the open market.

It is a little worrying that McD shows signs of the same type of mentality, however, it was only his first year and he needs to be given a chance to learn from his mistakes. Also, you have to forgive a rookie coach for adopting the 'win now' mentality: what would have happened if we'd have gone 4-12 or something like that? Would he have even got a chance to turn it around the following year?

Last offseason was the big unknown and none of us really knew what to expect. Next season however, we know we need to see a winning record and some talented youngsters emerge, otherwise we're maybe looking at a long slog to get back to the top........or even close to it....

BroncoBuff
01-17-2010, 02:11 AM
Thats true. There is no doubt that Hillis can't match Moreno's yard per carry average and production on short yardage situations, Scheffler is a pale imitation of Quinn as an NFL player, and Jack Williams is overrated compared to Fonzie Smith. Anyone who questions McDaniels personnel decisions has to be a hater because the facts are all on McDaniels side.

Nice 4th post ... dripping with both truth and sarcasm :thumbs:

BroncoBuff
01-17-2010, 02:18 AM
How was Jack a playmaker? He has contributed absolutely nothing in his tenure here.

You're humble opinion isn't quite humble - it's more on the homer side. And - it's stupid at that.

Actually, it's the opposite of homer. And it's not stupic, it's just different than your opinion.



How does your logic make any sense? What does 5 teams putting waiver claims on Jack Williams have anything to do with Law being a good trade off?

I should think those five claims speak volumes ... that and the fact Law is done.



I know you didn't know there were teams that wanted Law but he didn't want to play with them. With that being said, Law played good for us. He covered well.

Jack Williams has done nothing but give up plays for the Broncos. The only place he's been popular is on forums.

Some of you fans probably ride on the small bus to school.

You mean "short" bus, right?

And please, Jack was obviously popular with five other teams (and how many more that saw the waiver wire and did not make a claim because they were too low to get him). So that was a foolish statement, "only popular on message boards." You have a lotta nerve calling me stupid, with some of what you said here :oyvey:

I didn't know Law turned down other teams ... I still think the JMFW-for-Law move was a Brett Kern-Mitch Berger-like reactionary move. Big mistake ... we'll see, if Jack is healthy anyway, I bet he makes us look bad. As will Hillis and Scheffler. In my opinion anyway.

Broncos_OTM
01-17-2010, 05:59 AM
Actually, it's the opposite of homer. And it's not stupic, it's just different than your opinion.





I should think those five claims speak volumes ... that and the fact Law is done.





You mean "short" bus, right?

And please, Jack was obviously popular with five other teams (and how many more that saw the waiver wire and did not make a claim because they were too low to get him). So that was a foolish statement, "only popular on message boards." You have a lotta nerve calling me stupid, with some of what you said here :oyvey:

I didn't know Law turned down other teams ... I still think the JMFW-for-Law move was a Brett Kern-Mitch Berger-like reactionary move. Big mistake ... we'll see, if Jack is healthy anyway, I bet he makes us look bad. As will Hillis and Scheffler. In my opinion anyway.Coming from the jay cutler fan. Pft.

rmsanger
01-17-2010, 06:16 AM
We paid Jarvin Moss $2.5MM to sit on the bench, We're paying an aging CB $8MM for barely Pro Bowl performance, Stokely got $6MM, yet we aren't going to pay Marshal any god damn money.. WTF ?

At the end of the day we are a fubar team that has a misallocation of resources, a lack of committment to developing talent internally, and a general PR cluster fug. I know you guys view our team through Orange colored glasses but seriously our team is a fugging trainwreck.

BroncoBuff
01-17-2010, 07:14 AM
we paid jarvin moss $2.5mm to sit on the bench, we're paying an aging cb $8mm for barely pro bowl performance, stokely got $6mm, yet we aren't going to pay marshal any god damn money.. Wtf ?

At the end of the day we are a fubar team that has a misallocation of resources, a lack of committment to developing talent internally, and a general pr cluster fug. I know you guys view our team through orange colored glasses but seriously our team is a fugging trainwreck.

+1

Cito Pelon
01-17-2010, 07:23 AM
I think the article hit the nail on the head - if you want to be successful in the era of free agency you have to find and develop young talent.

I think the reason why Shanny never really got that was that when he took over the Broncos it was in the very very early days of fre agency when teams hadn't worked it out and good players could be had. These days if a veteran is the real deal he will typically NOT hit the open market.

It is a little worrying that McD shows signs of the same type of mentality, however, it was only his first year and he needs to be given a chance to learn from his mistakes. Also, you have to forgive a rookie coach for adopting the 'win now' mentality: what would have happened if we'd have gone 4-12 or something like that? Would he have even got a chance to turn it around the following year?

Last offseason was the big unknown and none of us really knew what to expect. Next season however, we know we need to see a winning record and some talented youngsters emerge, otherwise we're maybe looking at a long slog to get back to the top........or even close to it....

I think that has to be considered. And new coaches always bring in players they are comfortable with, know will be loyal to them and not the previous coach, know will be productive.

And yes, the young guys from the 2009 draft class and 2010 draft class I surely want to see them become core players on the team so we're not in that cycle of having to count on FA to compete.

Cito Pelon
01-17-2010, 07:36 AM
We paid Jarvin Moss $2.5MM to sit on the bench, We're paying an aging CB $8MM for barely Pro Bowl performance, Stokely got $6MM, yet we aren't going to pay Marshal any god damn money.. WTF ?

At the end of the day we are a fubar team that has a misallocation of resources, a lack of committment to developing talent internally, and a general PR cluster fug. I know you guys view our team through Orange colored glasses but seriously our team is a fugging trainwreck.

Oh come on, jebus. Posts like this are just a continuation of the "laughingstock of the league", "unmitigated disaster" baloney we heard too much of in 2009.

Show some backbone. At least wait til preseason is over in 2010 before you start into the sniveling.

The Joker
01-17-2010, 07:51 AM
Yeah, a rookie coach comes in and takes an 8-8 team and goes 8-8 in his first year... with new almost entirely new coaches, new systems on both sides of the ball, lots of new players on both sides of the ball.

But we're a "trainwreck"... right.

And if you can't see why we're not going to throw huge money at Brandon Marshall then you're a retard, quite frankly.

Requiem
01-17-2010, 08:34 AM
I don't see how we have a lack of commitment to developing players internally. A lot of young players saw quality PT this year. Jack Williams was never a special player. He never will be.

BroncoBuff
01-17-2010, 08:44 AM
But we're a "trainwreck"... right.

"Trainwreck" is a fair assessment of this team.

Losing 2 home games the last 3 weeks + to 2 of the very worst teams in the league + and our 2 biggest rivals + in do-or-die playoffs on the line situations = trainwreck, plain and simple.

Based on this, we finished the season as the worst team in the NFL.

TheReverend
01-17-2010, 08:50 AM
WTF did he say about McDaniels you didn't like?
Damn!
This ridiculous!
The guy wrote an excellent article, very informative and interesting in my opinion, nothing knew, really, but with examples of what more renowned coaches have done in managing team youth and veteran players, and you take offense because the article may have exposed McDaniels?
I don't think he was criticizing your coach.
Explain what is it the he said that offended you?
What did he say about McDdaniels you didn't like?

Ummm, I'm a "hater"... it was just a ****ty article in general laden with poor examples and you can usually expect better from Legwold. So get bent, idiot?

bowtown
01-17-2010, 09:53 AM
Ummm, I'm a "hater"... it was just a ****ty article in general laden with poor examples and you can usually expect better from Legwold. So get bent, idiot?

Certainly wasn't up to the Bronco Warrior standard, that we've all grown accustomed to around here.

The Joker
01-17-2010, 10:19 AM
"Trainwreck" is a fair assessment of this team.

Losing 2 home games the last 3 weeks + to 2 of the very worst teams in the league + and our 2 biggest rivals + in do-or-die playoffs on the line situations = trainwreck, plain and simple.

Based on this, we finished the season as the worst team in the NFL.

The season finished ugly, no two ways about it.

That said, the season is over, and we've got 8 months to get better and make sure it doesn't happen again. There were plenty of positives from this season too, we played some damn fine games and beat some very good teams in the process.

We have some quality players on the roster, and two guys in McDaniels and Nolan who've proven they put together quality units. With a year under their belts, and an offseason to bring in players that can improve the team, there's ample reason for hope that next year will see improvements on both sides of the ball.

strafen
01-17-2010, 10:30 AM
He's already decided, it'll be veterans. Kids Hillis, Scheffler, Marshall, Cutler all gone ... you can't just replace that pool youthful talent overnight.

Not to mention JMFW out, Ty Law in. That's all you need to know.

What about Mitch Berger for Brett Kern?! :rofl:

TonyR
01-17-2010, 10:34 AM
How soon people forget that Shanahan built a back to back Super Bowl team with veteran FA's like Zimmerman, Schlereth, Tony Jones, Neil Smith, Bill Romanowski, McCaffrey, Crockett, Gordon, Traylor, Habib, Griffith, Alfred Williams, etc.

Popps
01-17-2010, 10:44 AM
The season finished ugly, no two ways about it.

That said, the season is over, and we've got 8 months to get better and make sure it doesn't happen again. There were plenty of positives from this season too, we played some damn fine games and beat some very good teams in the process.

We have some quality players on the roster, and two guys in McDaniels and Nolan who've proven they put together quality units. With a year under their belts, and an offseason to bring in players that can improve the team, there's ample reason for hope that next year will see improvements on both sides of the ball.

As I mentioned, last year's free agent crop might have been the best overall grade we've had in free agency in 10 years. So, this notion that we're making bad personnel moves is just silly.

You've got a contingent here who only want to win if we win THEIR way, with old Shanahan players. It's much less about winning and more about being right. (Or wishing they were right.)

Regardless, I don't know what the future holds... but I agree, we saw a lot to be optimistic about last year. Can't wait for FA and the draft to see what we can get going.

Cito Pelon
01-17-2010, 11:10 AM
There's a fine line about FA's. Obviuosly you want to draft well, but there's a lot of fine FA old-timers out there. Just look at Dawkins and look at Keith Brooking playing for the Cowboys today.

WolfpackGuy
01-17-2010, 11:15 AM
What about Mitch Berger for Brett Kern?! :rofl:

Sacrificed Kern's youth and potential for Berger's career long suckiness.

strafen
01-17-2010, 11:20 AM
How soon people forget that Shanahan built a back to back Super Bowl team with veteran FA's like Zimmerman, Schlereth, Tony Jones, Neil Smith, Bill Romanowski, McCaffrey, Crockett, Gordon, Traylor, Habib, Griffith, Alfred Williams, etc.The best thing you can do, is admit McDaniels messed up in his first season as a head coach.
He failed in my book when it came to signing FA players.
McDaniels is not quite ready to carry Shanahan's headphone set yet...
Just agree with it, and it will be better for ya'
You can't make an ass out of yourself defending McDaniels by comparing his aweful moves to what Shanahan did to build a championship team.


About half of those players would be HoF bound someday, or at least get consideration.
Keith Traylor if memory serves me right, was originally drafted by the Broncos.
You just can't go out of your way to justify the aweful moves McDaniels made. You'd look like a fool.

The only player that McDaniels brought in this past season that you can put in the same sentence with the aforementioned players is Brian Dawkins.
The rest are ok players with minimal impact on the field aside from a good game here and a good game there. No enough consistency to be considered a force to be reckon with Sunday in and Sunday out...

Ray Finkle
01-17-2010, 11:37 AM
The best thing you can do, is admit McDaniels messed up in his first season as a head coach.
He failed in my book when it came to signing FA players.
McDaniels is not quite ready to carry Shanahan's headphone set yet...
Just agree with it, and it will be better for ya'
You can't make an ass out of yourself defending McDaniels by comparing his aweful moves to what Shanahan did to build a championship team.


About half of those players would be HoF bound someday, or at least get consideration.
Keith Traylor if memory serves me right, was originally drafted by the Broncos.
You just can't go out of your way to justify the aweful moves McDaniels made. You'd look like a fool.

The only player that McDaniels brought in this past season that you can put in the same sentence with the aforementioned players is Brian Dawkins.
The rest are ok players with minimal impact on the field aside from a good game here and a good game there. No enough consistency to be considered a force to be reckon with Sunday in and Sunday out...


So Buckhalter, Hill, Goodman, Dawkins, Gaffney, Holliday, and Davis for thess than the cost of Hainesworth is poor FA?

You're f'n clueless....

TonyR
01-17-2010, 11:46 AM
You're f'n clueless....

I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

drag, you widely missed my point. I wasn't comparing the Broncos most recent FA's to those of the Shanahan Super Bowl teams. I was trying to show the reactionary, no perspective, McD hating drama queens that veteran FA's can be an integral part of building a good team. The Broncos were lacking in talent and had no choice but to bring in FA's this past offseason, and they'll have to do it again this offseason. And like it or not this most recent group of FA's was considerably better than anything the Broncos have done in the market over the last several years.

Cito Pelon
01-17-2010, 01:18 PM
As I mentioned, last year's free agent crop might have been the best overall grade we've had in free agency in 10 years. So, this notion that we're making bad personnel moves is just silly.

You've got a contingent here who only want to win if we win THEIR way, with old Shanahan players. It's much less about winning and more about being right. (Or wishing they were right.)

Regardless, I don't know what the future holds... but I agree, we saw a lot to be optimistic about last year. Can't wait for FA and the draft to see what we can get going.

There's a lot of dumb punks on this board. Pretty much hysterical fools.

BroncoBuff
01-18-2010, 01:02 AM
There's a lot of dumb punks on this board. Pretty much hysterical fools.

The sad part with this kind of hate is that it's so new. In the past, people could criticize and assail Shanahan mercilessly without you Superfans jumping down their throats and calling them punks. Your attackes here, and all along, evidence insecurity in your own opinion ... and based on how we ended the season, that insecurity is very understandable.

And now, based on the team right now, it seems the Josh doubters were right all along ... he's in over his head. For now anyway. We all hope he grows up and starts making better decisions, but based on how this season ended, he captained an historic collapse, a massive train wreck. That you can't see this, that you continue to talk about the 6-0 start as if it has any relevance to the teams we are now, is kinda strange.

BroncoBuff
01-18-2010, 01:05 AM
What about Mitch Berger for Brett Kern?! :rofl:

Yeah, same kind of reactionary move. Honestly though, I think Josh will mature, not let his anger fuel rash decisions. I just hope we get some players, another great FA class like this one ... a good solid guard, a couple stout d-linemen, and a punter. That might actually be all we critically need. That and an attitude adjustment.


Although I guess we need a #1 WR now, too.

The Joker
01-18-2010, 06:25 AM
Berger was a much better punter for us than Kern, actually, and his net averages as well as not having any punts returned for TD's reflect this.

Kern just kicked the ball as far as he could, which is pretty much a recipe for disaster if there's a decent returner back there. We found that out first hand against Sproles. Teams were averaging 11.5 yards per return against the guy, Berger was giving up about 4 yards per return.

Both of them pretty much suck, hope we can find someone better in the offseason, but you're basically clutching at straws having a go at McD for that move.

BroncoBuff
01-18-2010, 06:30 AM
Berger was a much better punter for us than Kern, actually, and his net averages as well as not having any punts returned for TD's reflect this.

Kern just kicked the ball as far as he could, which is pretty much a recipe for disaster if there's a decent returner back there.

Not for the Titans ... half his punts there, 18 out of 37, went inside the 20, yet he still averaged 45 gross, 41 net. Those are VERY good numbers. He excelled in his 10 games in Tennessee, he'll be back there in 2010. His six games here, if you take out the one Sproles TD, his return yards against were in the middle of the pack.

I don't mind you defending Josh's moves, but really, Mitch Berger? I went to CU but I still think he sucks.

rmsanger
01-18-2010, 03:50 PM
We paid Jarvin Moss $2.5MM to sit on the bench, We're paying an aging CB $8MM for barely Pro Bowl performance, Stokely got $6MM, yet we aren't going to pay Marshal any god damn money.. WTF ?

At the end of the day we are a fubar team that has a misallocation of resources, a lack of committment to developing talent internally, and a general PR cluster fug. I know you guys view our team through Orange colored glasses but seriously our team is a fugging trainwreck.

Now that Nolan has been axed we are the official Haitian football team = wrecked