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ZONA
01-08-2010, 11:35 PM
If you love thinking about things in the Universe as I do then you will love this. I've always wondered how big stars got to be and what was the biggest star known to man (knowing there could be even larger ones not yet discovered). Man was I blown away at that size of the biggest one we know of.

VY Canis Majoris


First, look at the first pic with the Earth next to the Sun. Wow, you realize just how massive our Sun is. Then the next picture is the Sun next to VY Canis Majoris. DOH, that's one big star.

Just to put the pictures into some sense of scale other then visual, it would take a jetliner approximately 50 hours to fly around the Earth. That same plane would take 113 days to fly around the Sun. That same plane would take 1100 YEARS to fly around VY Canis Majoris. This star is so big that if you replaced our Sun with this star, it would probably extend to the orbit of Jupiter.

http://madsenblog.dk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/earth-compared-to-sun.jpg

http://whatdoyoucare.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/sizeofworld.jpg

Orange4Life
01-08-2010, 11:47 PM
That is really cool. I'd love to see that, from a distance of course. They need to get cracking on the whole space travel bit.

ZONA
01-08-2010, 11:58 PM
That is really cool. I'd love to see that, from a distance of course. They need to get cracking on the whole space travel bit.

What's funny is I watch a ton of these Discovery and Science channel shows on things in the Universe and they give distances to other known stars in our galaxy, the size of our own galaxy in light years and many other distances.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, that's fast.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.

I always have to have a laugh when they talk about finding a new home for Humans because the Sun will go into Red Giant phase in about 4 billion years, and it will grow in size to the point where it will engulf the Earth entirely. But what people don't realize is that we can't just find another planet somewhere in the Milky Way because in about 4 to 5 billion years, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way and all hell will break lose when that happens so no star or planet will be safe to move to within this Galaxy, or even the next closest galaxy (Andromeda), which is approximately 2 MILLION light years away. The next closest galaxy after that is probably some 4 MILLION light years away. So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

Orange4Life
01-09-2010, 12:05 AM
Yeah I said that in jest. But give us even 5,000 years (assuming we survive that long as a race) and see what we can do. If Red Giant phase and galaxies colliding is Billions of years away then the millions of light years really is quite a bit shorter....so at least we have that in our favor. haha

Really though its mind blowing when you really think about the time and size of things in the universe. Just incredible

ZONA
01-09-2010, 12:17 AM
Really though its mind blowing when you really think about the time and size of things in the universe. Just incredible

And it keeps getting bigger and bigger, faster and faster. The Universe is not jut expanding, it's accelerating. Things are going to be much further away the more time goes on. That's one of the reasons why I don't believe there are Aliens that have been to Earth. We've studied stars thousands and thousands of light years away and studied the exo-planets around them (using wobble theory since you can't see them they are so far away and their stars outshine them). They can still tell a planets mass and distance from the star using the wobble theory. There is a "life zone" they call it where they think only advanced life can take place. A planet has to be a certain distance from the star. If it's too far, there would be no liquid water, too close and any water would boil away. Even the size of the planet matters. If it's too big, it's mass would be so great that the gravitation pull on living things on the surface would be too great, they would be pancakes. If the planet is too small, not enough gravity and they would float away. Also you have to account for the spin of a planet, if it's even lucky enough to have one. If it doesn't spin, one side just gets baked by the star and the other side freezes to death. And also it probably needs a magnetic field to keep the stars radiation from killing the life forms. Alot of planets don't even have a magnetic field. It's amazing just how many things had to be perfect for us to even be here on Earth (distance from star, size of star, size of planet, liquid water, spin on axis, magnetic field). So you could find single celled life forms in super hot and cold places but for advanced life to take place, it has to be just right. So not only are there not many places at all that are close by that could support advanced life, just think how far Aliens would have to travel to even get here. The Universe is one friggin massive place.

ZONA
01-09-2010, 12:25 AM
Yeah I said that in jest. But give us even 5,000 years (assuming we survive that long as a race) and see what we can do. If Red Giant phase and galaxies colliding is Billions of years away then the millions of light years really is quite a bit shorter....so at least we have that in our favor. haha

Really though its mind blowing when you really think about the time and size of things in the universe. Just incredible

FYI - every Tuesday is Cosmos night on Science channel. They got it all - Blackholes, Quasars, Pulsars, Red Giants, White Dwarfs, Exo-Planets, Galaxies, Supernova's, Hypernova's, Gamma Ray Bursts, Theory of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Big Bang Theory, Super String Theory, you name it.

I think my favorite show was one called "Journey to the edge of the universe" and it was narrated by Alec Baldwin. Think it was actually on National Geographic channel. It's 2 hours, simply stunning. Might have parts of it on youtube.

broncocalijohn
01-09-2010, 12:35 AM
so is zona trying to say that Jack LaLanne will not have a chance to get the hell out of the way when the next galaxy comes crashing into us? Dude needs to sell more juice mixers and enjoy the next billion years or so.

Ratboy
01-09-2010, 12:38 AM
Global warming!@!!1111!!11

Ratboy
01-09-2010, 12:41 AM
I wish I had more knowledge in astronomy. I love watching those documentaries on the universe.

Cosmos was amazing.

Broncosfreak_56
01-09-2010, 01:13 AM
There are so many things about space I wish we knew. it is kindof frusterating to think about. Space is simply amazing.

bpc
01-09-2010, 01:29 AM
Great thread. Thanks for the pics. It is mindblowing. We'll all probably be whiped out by the Terminators, long before some stars though.

ShutDownPoster
01-09-2010, 01:40 AM
Now would global warming - slow down or even cancel out the next ice age?

slyinky
01-09-2010, 02:28 AM
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Archer81
01-09-2010, 02:34 AM
I had a science teacher in the 6th grade explain distance in space to us. He said on earth it looks like Space is full, crowded with stars and planets and whatever else. But its relative. The distance between those two stars is millions of light years, with a whole lot of nothing in between them. Hard to picture that when you are 13 years old.

:Broncos:

OCBronco
01-09-2010, 03:18 AM
What's funny is I watch a ton of these Discovery and Science channel shows on things in the Universe and they give distances to other known stars in our galaxy, the size of our own galaxy in light years and many other distances.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, that's fast.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.

I always have to have a laugh when they talk about finding a new home for Humans because the Sun will go into Red Giant phase in about 4 billion years, and it will grow in size to the point where it will engulf the Earth entirely. But what people don't realize is that we can't just find another planet somewhere in the Milky Way because in about 4 to 5 billion years, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way and all hell will break lose when that happens so no star or planet will be safe to move to within this Galaxy, or even the next closest galaxy (Andromeda), which is approximately 2 MILLION light years away. The next closest galaxy after that is probably some 4 MILLION light years away. So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

This is great stuff. Thanks for posting it. Still, I've gotta wonder: will humans even exist in 4 billion years? Assuming that life still exists on this planet at that time, you've got to wonder how much the species will evolve, if it hasn't gone extinct by then.

BabyTO
01-09-2010, 03:31 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/rr79ea.gif

Broncosfreak_56
01-09-2010, 05:18 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/rr79ea.gif

I love that GIF. Shows how small we really are.

Hulamau
01-09-2010, 05:30 AM
What's funny is I watch a ton of these Discovery and Science channel shows on things in the Universe and they give distances to other known stars in our galaxy, the size of our own galaxy in light years and many other distances.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, that's fast.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.

I always have to have a laugh when they talk about finding a new home for Humans because the Sun will go into Red Giant phase in about 4 billion years, and it will grow in size to the point where it will engulf the Earth entirely. But what people don't realize is that we can't just find another planet somewhere in the Milky Way because in about 4 to 5 billion years, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way and all hell will break lose when that happens so no star or planet will be safe to move to within this Galaxy, or even the next closest galaxy (Andromeda), which is approximately 2 MILLION light years away. The next closest galaxy after that is probably some 4 MILLION light years away. So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

Yep, the universe is an awe-inspiring place no doubt! Theoretically its possible to travel faster than light but we don't know how to do it yet of course, nor the consequences .. Through a worm hole is the most popular motif suggested.

But it wont take millions of years to figure it out, if it is technically possible. That assumption represents linear thinking. Technology increases in exponential jumps and exponential reality is like a magic show.

watermock
01-09-2010, 05:36 AM
We are only on the 4th dimension. Animals are are on the 3rd.

UFO's are simply on the 5th or higher.

chanesaw
01-09-2010, 06:48 AM
What's funny is I watch a ton of these Discovery and Science channel shows on things in the Universe and they give distances to other known stars in our galaxy, the size of our own galaxy in light years and many other distances.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, that's fast.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.

I always have to have a laugh when they talk about finding a new home for Humans because the Sun will go into Red Giant phase in about 4 billion years, and it will grow in size to the point where it will engulf the Earth entirely. But what people don't realize is that we can't just find another planet somewhere in the Milky Way because in about 4 to 5 billion years, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way and all hell will break lose when that happens so no star or planet will be safe to move to within this Galaxy, or even the next closest galaxy (Andromeda), which is approximately 2 MILLION light years away. The next closest galaxy after that is probably some 4 MILLION light years away. So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

When Andromeda and the Milky Way galaxies collide, even though both contain billions of stars (200 billion in ours & about 1 trillion in Andromeda), it is highly unlikely that any two stars will even collide due to the great distances between them.

Atwater His Ass
01-09-2010, 06:51 AM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/

been my homepage for years. :thumbs:

80smith
01-09-2010, 07:20 AM
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sciencefair/2010/01/nasas-kepler-mission-finds-5-new-planets.html

NASA's Kepler mission finds 5 new planets

<SCRIPT type=text/JavaScript>var yahooBuzzArticleId = 'usatoday:http://blogs.usatoday.com/sciencefair/2010/01/nasas-kepler-mission-finds-5-new-planets.html?csp=34';</SCRIPT><!-- BEGIN YAHOO BUZZ --><SCRIPT src="http://d.yimg.com/ds/badge.js" showbranding="0" ____yb="1" badgetype="small">yahooBuzzArticleId</SCRIPT>Buzz up! (http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzz?publisherurn=usatoday&guid=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.usatoday.com%2Fsciencefair %2F2010%2F01%2Fnasas-kepler-mission-finds-5-new-planets.html%3Fcsp%3D34)
Like this story? Share it with Yahoo! Buzz
<!-- END YAHOO BUZZ -->http://blogs.usatoday.com/.a/6a00d83451b46269e2012876a5ced8970c-800wi (http://blogs.usatoday.com/.a/6a00d83451b46269e2012876a5ced8970c-pi) Opening a new chapter in planet hunting, NASA scientists reported Monday the discovery of five worlds orbiting nearby stars, using the space agency's Kepler space telescope.
Kepler science team leader William Borucki of NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif., made the announcement of the "roaster" planets, ones larger than Neptune and orbiting extremely close to their stars, at the American Astronomical Society annual meeting in Washington, D.C. Launched last year, the $591 million Kepler eyeballs some 156,000 stars within 3,000 light years of Earth for planets, according to a study in the upcoming Science journal. One light year is about 5.9 trillion miles.
Kepler detects planets by spotting light-dipping eclipses, or 'transits', of stars by their companion planets. Four of the newly-detected planets are 1.3 to 1.5 times wider than Jupiter in our solar system, while the last one, dubbed Kepler-4b, is only about 0.6 times as wide as Jupiter and weighs only about 8% as much, about the heft of Neptune.
All of the planets, which orbit their stars once within every four day's time because of their closeness, bake at temperatures above 2,240 degrees Fahrenheit. Such close-in planets are the easiest to detect, but Kepler scientists expect to find more Earth-like ones in the next three years. In testing the satellite's optics, the team has determined it should be able to spot any Earth-sized planet transits with 99.4% certainty, if they are orbiting the stars observed by Kepler, according to the study.
By Dan Vergano
Photo: A chart compares the sizes of the five newly discovered planets with Jupiter and Earth. (NASA)

ayjackson
01-09-2010, 08:05 AM
What's funny is I watch a ton of these Discovery and Science channel shows on things in the Universe and they give distances to other known stars in our galaxy, the size of our own galaxy in light years and many other distances.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, that's fast.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.

I always have to have a laugh when they talk about finding a new home for Humans because the Sun will go into Red Giant phase in about 4 billion years, and it will grow in size to the point where it will engulf the Earth entirely. But what people don't realize is that we can't just find another planet somewhere in the Milky Way because in about 4 to 5 billion years, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way and all hell will break lose when that happens so no star or planet will be safe to move to within this Galaxy, or even the next closest galaxy (Andromeda), which is approximately 2 MILLION light years away. The next closest galaxy after that is probably some 4 MILLION light years away. So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

That's why I got me a wormhole to the Delta Quadrant!

chex
01-09-2010, 08:18 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/rr79ea.gif

I love stuff like this.

I was in Hawaii over the summer, and the stars in the sky are incredible. I live in a major city, so the nighttime skies here are nothing like that. The hotel I stayed in had an astronomer on staff and we went up to the roof of the hotel with a group of others to look through the telescopes he had up there. Antares was one of those stars. But what amazed me more was that you can actually see the galaxy in the sky with the naked eye. It looks like faint clouds, but it's not. To see that was awesome. I'm glad I had a chance to do so.

Gort
01-09-2010, 08:57 AM
duh. stargate. we have one here in colorado springs under cheyenne mountain. haven't you seen all those those documentaries they've been running on the sci fi channel for the past 10 years?

;)


What's funny is I watch a ton of these Discovery and Science channel shows on things in the Universe and they give distances to other known stars in our galaxy, the size of our own galaxy in light years and many other distances.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, that's fast.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.

I always have to have a laugh when they talk about finding a new home for Humans because the Sun will go into Red Giant phase in about 4 billion years, and it will grow in size to the point where it will engulf the Earth entirely. But what people don't realize is that we can't just find another planet somewhere in the Milky Way because in about 4 to 5 billion years, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way and all hell will break lose when that happens so no star or planet will be safe to move to within this Galaxy, or even the next closest galaxy (Andromeda), which is approximately 2 MILLION light years away. The next closest galaxy after that is probably some 4 MILLION light years away. So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

Gort
01-09-2010, 09:01 AM
This is great stuff. Thanks for posting it. Still, I've gotta wonder: will humans even exist in 4 billion years? Assuming that life still exists on this planet at that time, you've got to wonder how much the species will evolve, if it hasn't gone extinct by then.

one thing is for certain. in 4 billion years, the Chefs still will not have won another playoff game.

Lev Vyvanse
01-10-2010, 06:05 PM
So let's just say that mankind somehow finds a way to travel at the speed of light (which I'm not sure could ever be done but even so, it would probably be thousands of years before we could ever find a way to travel at that speed safely). It's going to take millions and millions of years to even get anywhere safe (if that place even exists). It's mind boggling to think about it. You would have generations after generations born on a star cruiser and dying on a star cruiser on the journey there. I don't think mankind will ever travel to deep space. There are just too many things that can go wrong and the distances are simply mind blowing.

If a ship was traveling the speed of light, time dilation would stop the clocks inside the ship(letting the ship travel infinite distances with no time passing) itís one of the reasons your velocity canít = the speed of light. The theory of relativity states that the faster you go the slower time passes.

sixtimeseight
01-10-2010, 06:11 PM
Theoretically its possible to travel faster than light

ummm no it isn't.

sixtimeseight
01-10-2010, 06:12 PM
If a ship was traveling the speed of light, time dilation would stop the clocks inside the ship(letting the ship travel infinite distances with no time passing) itís one of the reasons your velocity canít = the speed of light. The theory of relativity states that the faster you go the slower time passes.

And traveling at the speed of light would require infinite mass. I wish people would take 10 minutes to learn the basics of relativity before they start spouting off.

ZONA
01-10-2010, 06:19 PM
When Andromeda and the Milky Way galaxies collide, even though both contain billions of stars (200 billion in ours & about 1 trillion in Andromeda), it is highly unlikely that any two stars will even collide due to the great distances between them.

I wouldn't say it's highly unlikely. Both are spiral galaxies and are turning at speeds of 600,000 miles per hour or faster. You will get collisions, and not just stars or planets, but gas and particle collisions, which are obviously more abundant. These particles get super heated and they can be enough to incinerate entire planets. And don't forget not only are there Super Massive Blackholes at the center of each galaxy but there are probably millions of smaller Blackholes in each galaxy and those I'm sure would be fed beyond belief as new matter enters their Event Horizons.

None the less, how do you as a Human millions of years from now try and pick out a new planet within our galaxy knowing that you don't know how it will be affected by the collision with Andromeda? It would be nothing short of a gamble.

ZONA
01-10-2010, 07:06 PM
If a ship was traveling the speed of light, time dilation would stop the clocks inside the ship(letting the ship travel infinite distances with no time passing) itís one of the reasons your velocity canít = the speed of light. The theory of relativity states that the faster you go the slower time passes.

Yeah, that's not exactly true. A lot of things factor into time and it's relativity to the observer. The TWIN PARADOX is just that, a paradox. One twin traveling at the speed of light in a spaceship leaves Earth and then comes back and finds their twin has aged more then they have. If each twin had a clock on them, indeed the twin who traveled in space, their clock would read at a time (slower) then that of the twin on Earth. But the clock change is more based on Time Dilation concerned with the gravitation mass of an object then it is truly that time actually moves slower the faster you go. Further more, I highly doubt time would simply stop on the clock in the ship. We have satellites that orbit Earth at speeds of 17,000 miles per hour and yet their clocks are only fractions of a second off from the clocks on Earth. And still, that is not based on only the speed of the satellite, but the fact that it's 150 miles above the Earth and further away from the most center point of mass then the clocks on the Earth.

And the whole time dilation thing is based on the observers view. For example, let's say there is a meteor flying towards Earth at 100,000 miles per hour. It's due to collide with Earth in 6 months. I'm on Earth tracking it with my clock. You get on your spaceship and travel at the speed of 200,000 MPH and track it with your clock. You could get to the meteor and back by the time it hits Earth. On your clock, it would seem as if the meteor took longer then 6 months (but not much longer, maybe hours at most) to hit Earth while my clock showed it took exactly 6 months. It's relative. That meteor still had a constant rate of speed of 100,000 MPH and how fast it got to Earth is based on who was observing it and from where and what speed they were traveling in relation to the object being viewed.

Lev Vyvanse
01-10-2010, 07:21 PM
Yeah, that's not exactly true.
No that is exactly true. There are two types of time dilation one dealing gravitational forces and one dealing with velocity. Sorry to tell you, but the equations show that if you are traveling the speed of light time has stopped.

orinjkrush
01-10-2010, 07:23 PM
spacetime=timespace.

once we have that figgered out, we can go anywhere we want, tomorrow. err yesterday.

gyldenlove
01-10-2010, 07:29 PM
Yep, the universe is an awe-inspiring place no doubt! Theoretically its possible to travel faster than light but we don't know how to do it yet of course, nor the consequences .. Through a worm hole is the most popular motif suggested.

But it wont take millions of years to figure it out, if it is technically possible. That assumption represents linear thinking. Technology increases in exponential jumps and exponential reality is like a magic show.

That strongly depends what theory you subscripe to, if you are a strict relativity theory person you can't go faster than light or in fact even as fast as light.

If you subscripe to more exotic stuff then faster than light travel is not excluded, but so many other things suddenly pop up.

gyldenlove
01-10-2010, 07:34 PM
Yeah, that's not exactly true. A lot of things factor into time and it's relativity to the observer. The TWIN PARADOX is just that, a paradox. One twin traveling at the speed of light in a spaceship leaves Earth and then comes back and finds their twin has aged more then they have. If each twin had a clock on them, indeed the twin who traveled in space, their clock would read at a time (slower) then that of the twin on Earth. But the clock change is more based on Time Dilation concerned with the gravitation mass of an object then it is truly that time actually moves slower the faster you go. Further more, I highly doubt time would simply stop on the clock in the ship. We have satellites that orbit Earth at speeds of 17,000 miles per hour and yet their clocks are only fractions of a second off from the clocks on Earth. And still, that is not based on only the speed of the satellite, but the fact that it's 150 miles above the Earth and further away from the most center point of mass then the clocks on the Earth.

And the whole time dilation thing is based on the observers view. For example, let's say there is a meteor flying towards Earth at 100,000 miles per hour. It's due to collide with Earth in 6 months. I'm on Earth tracking it with my clock. You get on your spaceship and travel at the speed of 200,000 MPH and track it with your clock. You could get to the meteor and back by the time it hits Earth. On your clock, it would seem as if the meteor took longer then 6 months (but not much longer, maybe hours at most) to hit Earth while my clock showed it took exactly 6 months. It's relative. That meteor still had a constant rate of speed of 100,000 MPH and how fast it got to Earth is based on who was observing it and from where and what speed they were traveling in relation to the object being viewed.

The TWIN paradox is easily solved with a spot of general relativity, it turns out that the acceleration phase solves everything. The observer on the spaceship is wrong due to assuming an inertial reference frame when there clearly isn't one.

Much like the Xeno paradoxes these arise due poor assumptions.

ZONA
01-10-2010, 07:53 PM
spacetime=timespace.

once we have that figgered out, we can go anywhere we want, tomorrow. err yesterday.


I've never liked that term spacetime, meaning that both are connected in such a way that they came into existence at the same moment (ie Big Bang). Even so, I don't see why it couldn't be possible that black empty space, void of any matter could not have been around before a Big Bang phenomena. The Big Bang theory could be correct but it could also be that there was empty space before that, and time would have no relevance in empty space, void of any matter or forces. I think it's much more logical to believe that Space is a never ending void (no matter or forces) that always was and will be, and that the Universe (matter, time, forces) is what's expanding (into the void of space). They can tell (via Red Shift and radiation) that the matter and even the elemental forces (gravity, Nuclear, Electromagnetic) are indeed expanding but I find it logical that they must have a void in order to expand into, which would be empty space.

orinjkrush
01-10-2010, 08:27 PM
I've never liked that term spacetime, meaning that both are connected in such a way that they came into existence at the same moment (ie Big Bang). Even so, I don't see why it couldn't be possible that black empty space, void of any matter could not have been around before a Big Bang phenomena. The Big Bang theory could be correct but it could also be that there was empty space before that, and time would have no relevance in empty space, void of any matter or forces. I think it's much more logical to believe that Space is a never ending void (no matter or forces) that always was and will be, and that the Universe (matter, time, forces) is what's expanding (into the void of space). They can tell (via Red Shift and radiation) that the matter and even the elemental forces (gravity, Nuclear, Electromagnetic) are indeed expanding but I find it logical that they must have a void in order to expand into, which would be empty space.

good post. but IMHO logic is not involved. nothing created something?

we are still grasping at straws. even our 11 dimensional unified field theories.

i, for one, can't figure out why angular momentum, i.e. spinning, is SO important at so many levels.

Don Flamenco
01-10-2010, 09:28 PM
mind bottling