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oubronco
01-08-2010, 09:00 AM
Analysis: McDaniels must take a look in the mirror
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/08/2010 01:00:00 AM MST


As the Broncos began digesting the 2009 season, one of the biggest items on Josh McDaniels' things-to-do list was to discern what happened in the two four-game losing streaks over the final 10 games that dropped the team from the postseason into the offseason.

It's a big job, and McDaniels is faced with a problem he doesn't have much experience with.

In his time as a Patriots assistant, which began in 2001 with an entry-level position on Bill Belichick's staff and ended with three seasons as the team's offensive coordinator, New England lost four games in a row just once.

That was in the 2002 season, when the Patriots finished 9-7.

In no other season that McDaniels was there did the Patriots lose more than two straight regular-season games. In four of the seasons, they never had back-to-back losses, and in 2007 they didn't lose a regular-season game.

That's not a lot for McDaniels to go on as the Broncos try to figure out what happened after a 6-0 start.

McDaniels has to be willing to look at everything, to critique his actions, as well as those of others.

Did the team practice too much? Many coaches don't spend as much time on the field in the regular season as McDaniels did. And, McDaniels' Saturday walk-throughs are longer than most teams'.

Did they put on the pads too much? Some coaches shun them, especially in November and December. McDaniels had the players in full gear a couple of days a week. Again, the jury is fairly split in the NFL regarding this issue. Many believe it helps a team be physical, and others believe the downside of fatigue outweighs that.

Did the Broncos fail to adjust after their opponents had a month's worth of video to view? The Broncos' defense was unheralded when the season began, because McDaniels and Mike Nolan had never worked together before.

Or did the Broncos simply not have enough talent? McDaniels has publicly said how much he liked his roster this season, but that's what coaches always say. The real answer will be revealed in the coming months as we see who stays and who goes.

But McDaniels is certainly on to something when he talks about the Broncos' inability to rebound from the losses. This year's playoff field is proof of that.

Of the 12 playoff teams, one (Arizona) never had back-to-back losses this season. Eight didn't lose more than two games in a row: Cincinnati, Dallas, Green Bay, Indianapolis, Minnesota, Philadelphia and San Diego. And three had a three-game losing streak during the season: Baltimore, New Orleans and the Jets.

Which is why, despite their 13-3 finish in the regular season, some in the NFL question whether the Saints can regain their momentum after a three-game losing streak.

It's also why so many people like the Chargers' chances in the postseason. Their two-game losing streak came in October, and they haven't lost since.

Jeff Legwold: 303-954-2359 or jlegwold@denverpost.com



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14144048#ixzz0c2bapAEA

Paladin
01-08-2010, 09:36 AM
And the second guessing begins. If Legwold knoiws so much, why isn't he a coach of a professional football team? Everybody wants to get into the act.....

Popps
01-08-2010, 09:36 AM
Good read.

Is it me, or does Legwold write quality stuff on a regular basis?

Popps
01-08-2010, 09:38 AM
And the second guessing begins. If Legwold knoiws so much, why isn't he a coach of a professional football team? Everybody wants to get into the act.....

I think he leaves it open-ended, though. He doesn't claim to know the answer, so much as he's throwing out options.

Of course, the truth is that it's probably a little of all of them. (Though, I doubt practicing too much had a lot to do with it.)

Coach MdC is still learning, so adjustments are going to be something he learns to make as time goes on.

Of course, my opinion is that we're nowhere near as talented as we need to be. We finished 8-8, and we probably have 8-8 talent. We need upgrades in a few areas, but I believe we're on the way.

Lolad
01-08-2010, 12:04 PM
Good read.

Is it me, or does Legwold write quality stuff on a regular basis?

You call this quality? He just asked a bunch of questions

Popps
01-08-2010, 12:08 PM
You call this quality? He just asked a bunch of questions

I do.

It's just one style of writing. He's provoking thought and throwing out some opinions and ideas to stir up conversation.

It's not rocket science, but it's a good read, like most of his stuff.



Who pissed in everyone's Wheaties today? Good lord you Widows are a bitter bunch.

ColoradoDarin
01-08-2010, 12:16 PM
Where was the analysis though?

McDaniels already said that he needed to evaluate himself and the rest of the coaching staff to see what they could do better. Poor bit of thinking/writing here.

WolfpackGuy
01-08-2010, 12:19 PM
http://assetbar.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/lebowski-mirror.jpg

Broncoman13
01-08-2010, 12:31 PM
I do.

It's just one style of writing. He's provoking thought and throwing out some opinions and ideas to stir up conversation.

It's not rocket science, but it's a good read, like most of his stuff.



Who pissed in everyone's Wheaties today? Good lord you Widows are a bitter bunch.

How long does McD get to turn this thing around? If he finishes worse next year, do you look for a change?

worm
01-08-2010, 12:42 PM
How long does McD get to turn this thing around? If he finishes worse next year, do you look for a change?

After you fail the 1st year....you get to point the finger and talk about things like depth, past coaches players et al.

After the fail the 2nd year....you get to point the finger at the playmakers and talk about the need for a new QB and other key starters

After the fail the third year...you get to throw your old staff (picked by you) under the bus and change schemes.

After the fail the fourth year....you need to really scramble to find a scapegoat so the owner doesn't pin it on you. Injuries. Chemistry. Bad luck...grasp anything.

McD is in year 1. A coach like Lovie is in the last year prior to his execution.

WolfpackGuy
01-08-2010, 12:45 PM
After you fail the 1st year....you get to point the finger and talk about things like depth, past coaches players et al.

After the fail the 2nd year....you get to point the finger at the playmakers and talk about the need for a new QB and other key starters



He's already 3/4 of the way through year two.

I like the direction the team is heading...

Popps
01-08-2010, 12:49 PM
How long does McD get to turn this thing around? If he finishes worse next year, do you look for a change?

If by the end of next season, there has been no progress at all... or we've gone downhill, then I'd say the following season he's definitely on the hot seat.

Remember, it took Shanahan 3 seasons to win a Superbowl with the best quarterback in the history of the game.

To expect faster results from McDaniels isn't really fair.

His first season showed promise, despite it being a bumpy ride. Hence, you've got to give him time to implement his way of doing things, exactly like we gave Shanahan.

Popps
01-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Look up my threads on the matter if you want.... but McD's first season is almost identical to Shanahan's in every way, minus the drama. Very, very similar.

The similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan are one of the many reasons I'm optimistic about our future.

Oddly, the sad-sacks around here assume that if you support McDaniels, you must hate Shanahan. Quite the opposite. I think McDaniels is our next Mike Shanahan.

TonyR
01-08-2010, 01:10 PM
Remember, it took Shanahan 3 seasons to win a Superbowl with the best quarterback in the history of the game.


Also remember that if he didn't find a running back named Terrell Davis in the 6th round of the 1995 draft he likely never would have won a Super Bowl.

But let's keep running with the narrative that Josh McDaniels has already failed. No reason to have any hope.

DBroncos4life
01-08-2010, 01:41 PM
Look up my threads on the matter if you want.... but McD's first season is almost identical to Shanahan's in every way, minus the drama. Very, very similar.

The similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan are one of the many reasons I'm optimistic about our future.

Oddly, the sad-sacks around here assume that if you support McDaniels, you must hate Shanahan. Quite the opposite. I think McDaniels is our next Mike Shanahan.

Shanahan also brought with him one of the greatest offensive systems ever ran in the NFL and had a HOF QB in place to run the system. The WCO was involved in a number of SB winning teams. The Pats system under Charlie Wies had success. The Pats system under McD put up stats but never brought them a championship. None of the teams that went the Patriot way has had much success either. The Jets under Mangini ended up 10-6 in his best year there. They did that with D not O. You have to ask yourself what will history remember about the Pats teams? A great system or teams that stretched the rules of the NFL to get any advantage they could get on the other teams? If they don't take home another championship soon I think they will be remembered for spygate over the system.

WolfpackGuy
01-08-2010, 01:47 PM
Also remember that if he didn't find a running back named Terrell Davis in the 6th round of the 1995 draft he likely never would have won a Super Bowl.


Did TD have his greatest success because of John and the system or vice versa?

Cool Breeze
01-08-2010, 01:48 PM
http://hongkong.today.com/files/2008/11/mirror-on-the-wall.jpg

We all have those days.
Can't wait for year two!

DenverBrit
01-08-2010, 01:49 PM
Good read.

Is it me, or does Legwold write quality stuff on a regular basis?

Leggy is the best of the Post writers, he also makes solid contributions on the local Broncos' show.

ZONA
01-08-2010, 03:01 PM
Look up my threads on the matter if you want.... but McD's first season is almost identical to Shanahan's in every way, minus the drama. Very, very similar.
.

and minus John Elway

Chris
01-08-2010, 03:34 PM
If anyone is going to be hard on themselves this offseason it's Mcdaniels and that's just what the team needs.

Merlin
01-08-2010, 03:37 PM
Remember, it took Shanahan 3 seasons to win a Superbowl with the best quarterback in the history of the game.
I love Elway, but this is at best hyperbole, and at worse utter cr@p. Elway was way past his prime when Shanny got him. Because of Shanny was able to produce his best stats in his career and two SBs in those years, but it had nothing to do with Elway being the best in the league at the time. I would be surprised if he would have been able to crack the top 10 w/o the offense Shanny created. Elway was good those yrs, but he was not top tier.

PS, Anyone who thinks it is blasphemous to make that assertion, look up the backup QB's numbers when Elway was hurt. Yes, his stats were even better than Elway's. This is not to suggest that BB was better than Elway, only that Elway was nowhere near the QB people like to imagine him as being then.

Merlin
01-08-2010, 03:42 PM
You have to ask yourself what will history remember about the Pats teams? A great system or teams that stretched the rules of the NFL to get any advantage they could get on the other teams?
Stretching the rules is not synonymous with Cheating, and Bellicheat's bankbook can prove that despite what his dictionary may say.

Popps
01-08-2010, 03:58 PM
I love Elway, but this is at best hyperbole, and at worse utter cr@p. Elway was way past his prime when Shanny got him. Because of Shanny was able to produce his best stats in his career and two SBs in those years, but it had nothing to do with Elway being the best in the league at the time. .

Disagree.

Elway was mentally in his prime, and Shanahan helped dial him into a system where he could use his accuracy, arm strength and mobility to be effective.

I understand what you're saying... he wasn't physically as capable as he was 4-5 years earlier, but he was a phenomenally talented QB, even at that age. Maybe you need to pop in some games from those seasons. He hadn't lost much if any arm strength.. and he was savvy as hell.

Point being, can you even imagine the difference inheriting a QB like that would make for any new coach? Think he might be an upgrade over Kyle Orton?

We did a poll on another thread and most people thought that the Elway Shanahan inherited would have been good for at least 10-6, if not 11-5 with this exact same roster.

So, for McDaniels to have finished with the same record Shanahan did in his first season as a head coach should be looked at with some respect.

Shanahan had more experience, had been a head coach and had a HOF QB to implement his system. Yet, their first-year results are almost identical.

DBroncos4life
01-08-2010, 05:34 PM
Stretching the rules is not synonymous with Cheating, and Bellicheat's bankbook can prove that despite what his dictionary may say.

Well I just don't think they are as good of a team without the video taping of other teams practices. Maybe I'm alone but I don't think the Pats will ever regain the glory they had before they got caught. I think they are aging and the AFC east is catching them. I think this is there last best hope to go back to the super bowl before the team gets torn apart for good.

Bronx33
01-08-2010, 05:39 PM
If by the end of next season, there has been no progress at all... or we've gone downhill, then I'd say the following season he's definitely on the hot seat.

Remember, it took Shanahan 3 seasons to win a Superbowl with the best quarterback in the history of the game.

To expect faster results from McDaniels isn't really fair.

His first season showed promise, despite it being a bumpy ride. Hence, you've got to give him time to implement his way of doing things, exactly like we gave Shanahan.


This is exactly how iam looking at it this year was more or less a learning curve where he made some mistakes.

TheReverend
01-08-2010, 05:58 PM
Look up my threads on the matter if you want.... but McD's first season is almost identical to Shanahan's in every way, minus the drama and offense. Very, very similar.

The similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan are one of the many reasons I'm optimistic about our future.

Oddly, the sad-sacks around here assume that if you support McDaniels, you must hate Shanahan. Quite the opposite. I think McDaniels is our next Mike Shanahan.

Fixed

rastaman
01-08-2010, 06:41 PM
How long does McD get to turn this thing around? If he finishes worse next year, do you look for a change?

It could be a possibility. Should McD win 5-6 games next year or worse he could be fired in his 2nd year as a had coach especially if their is more player-coach drama where its handled before the media instead of in house. After all the Squawks let Mora go after his first season and having gone 5-11. Think about it, even McD came very close to going 5-11 as well b/c 3 games could have been loses (Cincy, Dallas, and NE) had lady luck not come to his rescue.

A team melt down in 2010 that involves losing the last 4 or 5 games with the team quitting on McD could result in McD getting fired.

So yes....in 2010 McD could be on a very short leash.

TheDave
01-08-2010, 06:44 PM
As much as it's funny watching everyone break their ankles jumping on and off this kids bandwagon... At least the drama around here has died down enough to talk football again.

broncosteven
01-08-2010, 06:59 PM
Look up my threads on the matter if you want.... but McD's first season is almost identical to Shanahan's in every way, minus the drama. Very, very similar.

The similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan are one of the many reasons I'm optimistic about our future.

Oddly, the sad-sacks around here assume that if you support McDaniels, you must hate Shanahan. Quite the opposite. I think McDaniels is our next Mike Shanahan.

Shanny went 4-4 over last 8 games, and beat Oakland to end the season on a high note. They didn't have a losing streak of more than 2 games, McD had 2 - 4 game losing streaks, not exactly identical.

Shanny also had a rookie RB who actually went over 1k.

I sure hope McD turns it around and does 1/2 as well as Mike did but I don't think that is going to happen until he can gameplan to get the best out of the players on the roster.

Right now it is all about his system, his way, and creating his identity even if it means they are going to run the same power play on 3rd and 1 over and over and over.

Popps
01-08-2010, 07:26 PM
Fixed

If you call 3 ppg for the season a huge drop-off, sure. Of course, after week 3... the 08 team averaged less than the 09 team.

Regardless, the stat production change from the offense/defense combined was very similar from Shanahan's and McDaniel's first season.

The stats are all there to tell you the truth. Wins, offense, defense, roster turnover. Almost identical.

Popps
01-08-2010, 07:32 PM
Shanny went 4-4 over last 8 games, and beat Oakland to end the season on a high note. .

We lost 2 out of 3, including two games to divisional opponents with the playoffs still existing as a possibility.


Shanny also had a rookie RB who actually went over 1k.
.

Our top 2 rushers in 1995 ran for 1450 yards.

Our top 2 rushers in 2009 ran for 1589 yards.



Right now it is all about his system, his way, and creating his identity

Yup.

As I said, exactly like Mike Shanahan, who threw out all prior ways of doing things in favor of his own, and turned over 60% of the starting roster in his FIRST season.

Popps
01-08-2010, 07:33 PM
You also forgot to mention the detail about Shanahan inheriting a Hall of Fame quarterback.

I wonder why you left that out, Steven?

rastaman
01-08-2010, 07:46 PM
We lost 2 out of 3, including two games to divisional opponents with the playoffs still existing as a possibility.



Our top 2 rushers in 1995 ran for 1450 yards.

Our top 2 rushers in 2009 ran for 1589 yards.




Yup.

As I said, exactly like Mike Shanahan, who threw out all prior ways of doing things in favor of his own, and turned over 60% of the starting roster in his FIRST season.

Yup! But remember, Shanny had a 13-3 record in his 2nd season after turning over 60% of the roster! So if you want to make such comparisons, then doens't McD need to have similar sucess in his 2nd season by winning btwn 10-13 games in 2010? TD ran for over 1,500 yds in his 2nd year in the NFL. Does this mean that in his 2nd season Moreno needs to rush for 1400-1500 yards? After all coming out of college Moreno was a world beater and was selected 12th overall in the 2009 draft vs TD getting drafted in the 6th round.

rastaman
01-08-2010, 07:56 PM
You also forgot to mention the detail about Shanahan inheriting a Hall of Fame quarterback.

I wonder why you left that out, Steven?

Shanny also inherited another HOF QB with the 49ers by the name of Steve Young and won a SB as well. So whats your point?

McD had coached a future HOF QB named Tom Brady and won games as an OC.

McD is going to need to find a Cassel or Tom Brady type QB in order for his Schemes to work in Denver.....correct? You guys had better hope that Cutler continues to have 4 or 5 more years of his 2009 season. Should Cutler suddenly turn into a Franchise QB with the Bears.......McD is going to be looking awfully silly, especially over this period McD has not found his Franchise (Tom Brady) type QB.

Shanny also went 10 years w/o a HOF QB and didn't have much sucess as well.

How many SB's would Billichick have won w/o his current HOF QB?

Doesn't this say and NFL HC needs a franchise HOF bound QB to win playoff games and make appearances and win SB's?

DBroncos4life
01-08-2010, 08:35 PM
If you call 3 ppg for the season a huge drop-off, sure. Of course, after week 3... the 08 team averaged less than the 09 team.

Regardless, the stat production change from the offense/defense combined was very similar from Shanahan's and McDaniel's first season.

The stats are all there to tell you the truth. Wins, offense, defense, roster turnover. Almost identical.

The 08 O was better then the 09 O. Period. You can't leave out bits of it to make your case. You can't sit here and call the 08 offense a failure and praise the 09 offense that was worst in just about every phase of the game a success. I don't care how McD's rookie year compares with Red Miller's, Lou Saban's, Dan Reeve's or Wade Phillips's offenses. In 2009 the Denver Broncos team finished 15th in yards and 20th in scoring. Wanting improvement on that isn't too much to ask considering McD has been anointed this offensive guru that was the mastermind of the greatest offenses in NFL history.

hambone13
01-08-2010, 09:54 PM
The 08 O was better then the 09 O. Period. You can't leave out bits of it to make your case. You can't sit here and call the 08 offense a failure and praise the 09 offense that was worst in just about every phase of the game a success. I don't care how McD's rookie year compares with Red Miller's, Lou Saban's, Dan Reeve's or Wade Phillips's offenses. In 2009 the Denver Broncos team finished 15th in yards and 20th in scoring. Wanting improvement on that isn't too much to ask considering McD has been anointed this offensive guru that was the mastermind of the greatest offenses in NFL history.

Popps has such a seemingly cool aspect about his capacity to be objective, then his agenda kicks him in the chin and he realizes someone else might have a valid point

Stormontheplains
01-08-2010, 09:59 PM
here is what Mcdaniels see's in the mirror when he looks at himself. A man torn between who he is, and who he wants to be

Cito Pelon
01-09-2010, 07:25 AM
And the second guessing begins. If Legwold knoiws so much, why isn't he a coach of a professional football team? Everybody wants to get into the act.....

Interesting story, and you can make of it what you please:

Legwold was on the radio during the week before the 11/22/09 game with San Diego. He said, "Their punter - I don't know how to pronounce his name - is it SKY-FERS? He's one of the best in the NFL."

TonyR
01-09-2010, 07:30 AM
here is what Mcdaniels see's in the mirror when he looks at himself. A man torn between who he is, and who he wants to be

What is this even supposed to mean? Why do you even bother?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-09-2010, 09:12 AM
Well I just don't think they are as good of a team without the video taping of other teams practices. Maybe I'm alone but I don't think the Pats will ever regain the glory they had before they got caught. I think they are aging and the AFC east is catching them. I think this is there last best hope to go back to the super bowl before the team gets torn apart for good.

The reason highlighted is the reason they probably won't return to glory. It has nothing to do with videotaping practices or signals. Gimme a break.

Very few teams have a run like they had. Even fewer have been able to keep the run going (11-5 last year, 10-6 this year) in spite of age, injuries and free agency. They're very well coached, they've drafted well (the last couple years are the exception, IMO), and they have key talent at key positions. Videotape has really nothing to do with it.

Merlin
01-12-2010, 08:17 AM
The reason highlighted is the reason they probably won't return to glory. It has nothing to do with videotaping practices or signals. Gimme a break.
Yet continued to do it even though they were ordered by the league to stop...I wonder why. They have never won another SB, even the Yr they apparently had a far superior offense...I wonder why. BTW, what advantage did taping the D give them? Oh, yeah, it helped the O call better plays. By how much did they win each of the SB's? Oh, yeah, I'm guessing that the videotape MUST have at least giveng them a few points advantage, otherwise why take the risk after being ordered to stop.

Brady and the magnificent 18-1 team did look good in the SB the yr they were not able to tape the D. McD was probably dreaming of the good old days when he knew what D was being called.

oubronco
01-12-2010, 08:32 AM
here is what Mcdaniels see's in the mirror when he looks at himself. A man torn between who he is, and who he wants to be

WTF seriously..................WTF?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-12-2010, 08:50 AM
Yet continued to do it even though they were ordered by the league to stop...I wonder why. They have never won another SB, even the Yr they apparently had a far superior offense...I wonder why. BTW, what advantage did taping the D give them? Oh, yeah, it helped the O call better plays. By how much did they win each of the SB's? Oh, yeah, I'm guessing that the videotape MUST have at least giveng them a few points advantage, otherwise why take the risk after being ordered to stop.

Brady and the magnificent 18-1 team did look good in the SB the yr they were not able to tape the D. McD was probably dreaming of the good old days when he knew what D was being called.

They have never won another Super Bowl after winning three in four years, having an aging team, needing to revamp both sides of the ball, in the era of free agency.

And while there might have been an advantage to taping teams, it was VERY slight. You can run thirty different defensive plays from the same formation. It's still guesswork, and you STILL have to execute your plays on offense to win. If you don't execute, all the film in the world on the other team isn't going to mean a damn thing.

Merlin
01-13-2010, 12:24 PM
You can run thirty different defensive plays from the same formation.
Which is exactly why the cheated. It wasn't so they could see the freaking formation, it was so they could know what defense was being called. After half time, they could read the DC signals and predict which defense was being called. If that is not a tactical advantage, why do you suppose teams go through so much effort to disguise it, and why do you think Bellicheat continued to do it after being warned. Seriously, you can't be arguing that it was inconsequential, especially since you didn't appear to understand the purpose of stealing the defense calls.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-13-2010, 01:37 PM
Which is exactly why the cheated. It wasn't so they could see the freaking formation, it was so they could know what defense was being called. After half time, they could read the DC signals and predict which defense was being called. If that is not a tactical advantage, why do you suppose teams go through so much effort to disguise it, and why do you think Bellicheat continued to do it after being warned. Seriously, you can't be arguing that it was inconsequential, especially since you didn't appear to understand the purpose of stealing the defense calls.

So you honestly believe that in the 10 seconds between having a play called via hand signal to the defense, an offensive coach is radioing in not only the offensive play call, but also the defensive play call? Really? All that happens in the span of 10-20 seconds?

Talk about conspiracy theorists. I'm just laughing my ass off about this.

And if that's the only advantage they had, and it was taken away and they were severely punished, how have they STILL managed able to win 10-11 games every single year?

And once again, EXECUTION still needs to happen. I love how you completely ignore the key component of ANY football game.

TheReverend
01-13-2010, 01:59 PM
If you call 3 ppg for the season a huge drop-off, sure. Of course, after week 3... the 08 team averaged less than the 09 team.

Regardless, the stat production change from the offense/defense combined was very similar from Shanahan's and McDaniel's first season.

The stats are all there to tell you the truth. Wins, offense, defense, roster turnover. Almost identical

Who's talking about 08? I was replying to your post and fixing the glaring error.

Shanahan's first season with the Broncos put the offense at #3 in the league, while Josh's has us average at #15.

Merlin
01-13-2010, 02:16 PM
So you honestly believe that in the 10 seconds between having a play called via hand signal to the defense, an offensive coach is radioing in not only the offensive play call, but also the defensive play call?
You clearly don't understand the advantage, so why bother...well lets try anyway.
And if that's the only advantage they had, and it was taken away and they were severely punished,
And why do you think they were severely punished (and Bellicheat to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars)? Because it was a serious infringement of the rules leading a tactical advantage...thus the freaking rule are you really that dense? Keep laughing your head off, ignorance is bliss and matches your avatar.
how have they STILL managed able to win 10-11 games every single year?
Because they were a good team that was well coached, the question is whether they were a great team with great coaches...I honestly don't know. What I do know is the year the went to the SB with one of the greatest offenses the NFL has had, they did far worse than in any previous SB in which they scored more points, with less talent. Those previous SBs were won by very small margins, and it could very easily be argued were the result of cheating. Again, if the cheating was inconsequential, as you contend, why continue doing it after being told to desist, and why the severe punishment? It must be because that type of cheating achieves virtually no benefits, as you presume.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-13-2010, 04:21 PM
You clearly don't understand the advantage, so why bother...well lets try anyway.

And why do you think they were severely punished (and Bellicheat to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars)? Because it was a serious infringement of the rules leading a tactical advantage...thus the freaking rule are you really that dense? Keep laughing your head off, ignorance is bliss and matches your avatar.

Because they were a good team that was well coached, the question is whether they were a great team with great coaches...I honestly don't know. What I do know is the year the went to the SB with one of the greatest offenses the NFL has had, they did far worse than in any previous SB in which they scored more points, with less talent. Those previous SBs were won by very small margins, and it could very easily be argued were the result of cheating. Again, if the cheating was inconsequential, as you contend, why continue doing it after being told to desist, and why the severe punishment? It must be because that type of cheating achieves virtually no benefits, as you presume.

You STILL have not told all of us how, in the span of 10-20 seconds, a coach can see the defensive play call, radio to the offensive coach, who then relays the defensive play call AND the offensive play call into the Quarterback on the field. I'm guessing you think that every player on that offensive team has studied not only the film for that week's game, but also the hand signals used to send in plays, and therefore every single player on the offensive side of the ball knows what play the defense is running. So offensive players know the game plan, the calls they need to know to run THEIR plays, AND the plays call hand signals of the defense they're facing. Is that accurate?

It's absurd and ridiculous. Is it really what you think? That's how you'd glean an advantage from knowing defensive play calls.

I guess my avatar was too stupid to comprehend such a thing, which is another brilliant argument from someone who evidently cannot argue a point without insulting someone. Great job.

2KBack
01-13-2010, 05:19 PM
Who's talking about 08? I was replying to your post and fixing the glaring error.

Shanahan's first season with the Broncos put the offense at #3 in the league, while Josh's has us average at #15.

That's true, he did improve the offense by a bit, where McDaniel's offense took a step back. Shanny's improvement wasn't exactly dramatic though, the 1995 team averaged a whole 2.5 points per game more than the 1994 team (good for 9th and 10th in the league). The yards were even closer. They averaged 377.5 yards per game in 1995 and 369.1 in 1994.

edit- I looked at the wrong numbers, the 1994 offense averaged 343 yards per game. Still, 30 yards isn't awe inspiring.

watermock
01-13-2010, 05:40 PM
And who was the OC during the cheating? or the "worm".

It's almost funny.

Lev Vyvanse
01-13-2010, 05:41 PM
And who was the OC during the cheating?

Kubiak?

watermock
01-13-2010, 05:48 PM
The waterboy.

Funny how he knew every Billicheck play isn't it.

watermock
01-13-2010, 05:57 PM
That's true, he did improve the offense by a bit, where McDaniel's offense took a step back. Shanny's improvement wasn't exactly dramatic though, the 1995 team averaged a whole 2.5 points per game more than the 1994 team (good for 9th and 10th in the league). The yards were even closer. They averaged 377.5 yards per game in 1995 and 369.1 in 1994.

edit- I looked at the wrong numbers, the 1994 offense averaged 343 yards per game. Still, 30 yards isn't awe inspiring.

Wasnt the team under Phillips in 94?

watermock
01-13-2010, 05:59 PM
San Francisco 49ers
In 1992, Shanahan was hired as offensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers on George Seifert's staff, capping his rise with a victory in Super Bowl XXIX after the 1994 season. The 49ers offense that year has been hailed as one of the greatest of all time, with the likes of Steve Young, Jerry Rice, Brent Jones, John Taylor, William Floyd and Ricky Watters scoring points in flurries. His years under Seifert placed him in the Bill Walsh coaching tree.

[edit] Denver Broncos
Shanahan's success with the 49ers earned him a head coaching spot once more, this time back in Denver with the Broncos beginning in 1995. Shanahan led Elway and the Broncos to back-to-back Super Bowl championships in the 1997 and 1998 seasons, during which time the Broncos set a then-record for victories in two seasons. He was the last coach to win two consecutive titles until New England's Bill Belichick did it during the 2003 and 2004 NFL seasons. Between 1996-1998, the Broncos set the NFL record for victories by going 46–10 over a three-year span. The 1998 Broncos won their first 13 games on their way to a 14–2 mark. Shanahan, taking his cue from West Coast offense guru Bill Walsh, was well-known for scripting the first 15 offensive plays of the game, and helped the '98 Broncos set an NFL record for first quarter points scored in a season.

watermock
01-13-2010, 06:02 PM
Just STFU.

Lev Vyvanse
01-13-2010, 06:03 PM
Just STFU.

http://bourbonbirdredux.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/com.jpg

Merlin
01-13-2010, 06:51 PM
So offensive players know the game plan, the calls they need to know to run THEIR plays, AND the plays call hand signals of the defense they're facing. Is that accurate?.
Are you really that slow ??? You really should not procreate with Moose. The players do not need to know what each defensive player is doing, the OC needs to know what defense is called so he can radio in the play that will work best against the D. Is it really that difficult for you to understand basic strategy? What do you find hard to comprehend? Do you really think Bellicheat was filming because he had nothing else to do with his budget so decided to blow it on filming the opposition during games against the rules? Do you really think he willingly risked the wrath of the league and the risk of being penalized hundreds of thousands of dollars because his cheating strategy brought about no benefit? Moose, don't live up to your forum name and just consider what you are suggesting.

Florida_Bronco
01-13-2010, 07:15 PM
So if you want to make such comparisons, then doens't McD need to have similar sucess in his 2nd season by winning btwn 10-13 games in 2010? A pretty reasonable goal.

TD ran for over 1,500 yds in his 2nd year in the NFL. Does this mean that in his 2nd season Moreno needs to rush for 1400-1500 yards? After all coming out of college Moreno was a world beater and was selected 12th overall in the 2009 draft vs TD getting drafted in the 6th round. I wouldn't directly compare Moreno's stats to TD's. TD was a workhorse back while Moreno is part of RBBC.

DBroncos4life
01-13-2010, 07:26 PM
The reason highlighted is the reason they probably won't return to glory. It has nothing to do with videotaping practices or signals. Gimme a break.

Very few teams have a run like they had. Even fewer have been able to keep the run going (11-5 last year, 10-6 this year) in spite of age, injuries and free agency. They're very well coached, they've drafted well (the last couple years are the exception, IMO), and they have key talent at key positions. Videotape has really nothing to do with it.

Moose if videotaping other teams practices had so little to do with their championship runs why does the NFL have such a big problem with teams video taping? The NFL must think you can get a advantage from it otherwise every team would be able to do it and I doubt the NFL would have fined them a NFL record 750K and took away a first round draft pick for spying.

watermock
01-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Noreno was no world beater.


Davis had hamstring and knee problems at Georgia.

You know dick Florida.

Lev Vyvanse
01-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game, with any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter.

Just saying.