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oubronco
01-07-2010, 08:31 AM
Analysis: Marshall may not be easy for Broncos to trade
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/07/2010 01:00:00 AM MST


Wide receiver Brandon Marshall wants out of Denver and the Broncos would like to trade him.

But Marshall's value to other NFL teams and what the Broncos can get for him in a trade remain to be determined.

On Marshall's side of the ledger are three consecutive 100-catch seasons, two Pro Bowl selections and top-tier size (6-feet-4 and 240 pounds) in a league filled with smaller cornerbacks.

Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton has called Marshall "a special player," and defensive coordinators who face the Broncos say he is a difficult matchup to deal with.

But a look at Marshall's performance in the 2009 season reveals why not every team in the league is doing handstands for the opportunity to surrender high-value draft picks to get him.

Some question Marshall's impact. New England wide receiver Randy Moss isn't going to the Pro Bowl, while Marshall is, but Moss finished with more receiving yards, more yards per catch, more first downs and more touchdowns than Marshall.

A receiver of similar size, San Diego's Vincent Jackson, is faster in the open field and averaged more than 6 yards per catch above what Marshall averaged this season.

Touchdowns, yards per catch and first downs those are impact numbers.

Some of Marshall's numbers this season good and bad were a product of the Broncos' problems on offense. But Marshall doesn't seem nearly as comfortable reeling in the ball and making the catch with his back to the quarterback, which is why most of his work in the Denver offense has come on routes when he is facing the quarterback and can look the ball in instead of turning his head to look back while running.

It's also why you don't see him working the sidelines much in places where he has to go get the ball and get his feet down in limited space.

That's why 65 of Marshall's catches this season, with runs after the catch included, went for 10 yards or fewer. That's 64.4 percent of his receiving plays. And 30 of his catch-and-run plays went for 5 yards or fewer, including two for negative yardage. That's 29.7 percent and basically amounts to a running play.

Not to drown in the numbers, but Marshall had just 10 receiving plays this season the catch and run for 21 yards or more, and half of his 10 touchdowns came on plays of 5 yards or fewer.

That says "possession receiver" to many in the NFL, and possession receivers don't reel in the mega dollars. Some personnel evaluators question Marshall's ability to catch the ball in downfield traffic.

So opinions are divided on both Marshall as a player, and that's not even considering some teams' concerns about his maturity and ability to handle a huge contract and just how much they would surrender to get him from the Broncos.

That also puts the Broncos in a position to consider all offers carefully. If they take the hard-line approach, teams might back away from Marshall, thinking the Broncos may release him rather than risk putting him back in their locker room as an unhappy player.

One general manager in the NFL recently said if Marshall is so good that the Broncos would want premium draft picks for him, then Marshall is good enough for the Broncos to put up with him.

Jeff Legwold: 303-954-2359 or jlegwold@denverpost.com



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14136532#ixzz0bwOLJQHc

Requiem
01-07-2010, 08:33 AM
No way in Hell Denver outright releases Marshall. You either play him or trade him. He doesn't get to walk.

Rabb
01-07-2010, 08:41 AM
One general manager in the NFL recently said if Marshall is so good that the Broncos would want premium draft picks for him, then Marshall is good enough for the Broncos to put up with him.

that is actually very interesting

robbieopperude
01-07-2010, 08:44 AM
I wish Washington would get in on this now that Shanahan is back. I would take a 2nd, 3rd, and a WR from Washingtons roster for him. Maybe Santana Moss would make a good Wes Welker in our system.

Rabb
01-07-2010, 08:45 AM
I wish Washington would get in on this now that Shanahan is back. I would take a 2nd, 3rd, and a WR from Washingtons roster for him. Maybe Santana Moss would make a good Wes Welker in our system.

Jesus no to the nth degree

we have Eddie Royal who could probably be a better Wes Welker in our system than Wes Welker

ColoradoDarin
01-07-2010, 08:46 AM
maybe this "other GM" is just trying to lower Marshall's value to get him?

I bet we'll tender him 1st & 3rd, and someone will sign him.

cousinal11
01-07-2010, 08:46 AM
Jesus no to the nth degree

we have Eddie Royal who could probably be a better Wes Welker in our system than Wes Welker

No kidding.

WR1 Dez Bryant
WR2 Gaffney
WR3 Royal

:strong:

Rabb
01-07-2010, 08:49 AM
maybe this "other GM" is just trying to lower Marshall's value to get him?

I bet we'll tender him 1st & 3rd, and someone will sign him.

I agree with you and I think we should be thrilled with that. Listen, I like Marshall as a player and I really wish it would work out but the fact is that despite his production, he is an issue in the locker room no matter who's fault it is. My major concern isn't really Brandon, it is how the vets that seem to have had enough of his crap respond to the coach if we keep Brandon and he continues this line of drama.

I am pretty sure we can fill the void of Brandon far easier than the leadership of Dawkins.

Drek
01-07-2010, 08:50 AM
One general manager in the NFL recently said if Marshall is so good that the Broncos would want premium draft picks for him, then Marshall is good enough for the Broncos to put up with him.If Legwold would have thought about this quote rather than just tacking it on after hitting his word count he might have wrote something with some sense to it.

Marshall is going to get the maximum RFA tender because there will not be a new CBA. That means either A. he plays for the Broncos at ~$3M next season in another contract year. B. his agent finds a team willing to poison pill his contract and also willing to give us a 1st and 3rd to do just that. Or C. his agent finds a team willing to give him the money he wants but who isn't willing to give up a 1st a 3rd. That team then needs to find something other than a 1st and 3rd that the Broncos would be willing to take in return, when refusing anything else simply results in them getting to keep a two time Pro Bowl WR for $3M next season.

The Broncos have all the leverage. Marshall can act like a b**** all he wants but ultimately if he wants to get paid the Broncos either get paid too or he plays his ass off and keeps his nose clean for another season.

My personal bet is that Baltimore will sign him and give us their 1st and 3rd. They'll bet on their strong locker room and a nice contract reigning him in, not to mention being back on the east coast. They need an elite WR to go with Flacco, so its a perfect fit.

broncofan7
01-07-2010, 08:51 AM
No kidding.

WR1 Dez Bryant
WR2 Gaffney
WR3 Royal

:strong:

yes, because it's so common for rookie WR's to step right in and be the team's best receiver.........

cousinal11
01-07-2010, 09:00 AM
yes, because it's so common for rookie WR's to step right in and be the team's best receiver.........

X - Bryant
Y - Gaffney
Z - Royal

Better?

Rabb
01-07-2010, 09:01 AM
yes, because it's so common for rookie WR's to step right in and be the team's best receiver.........

ahh, but it would be ok for a rookie QB to step right in and be the team's best slinger

got it

The Joker
01-07-2010, 09:03 AM
yes, because it's so common for rookie WR's to step right in and be the team's best receiver.........

I think Bryant would be used to play the Randy Moss role if we were to draft him.

It's not an entirely complex role in all honesty, and one that a guy as talented as Bryant would probably make a decent fist of. He's not going to be Moss, obviously, but even the presence of a guy like that on the field will open things up for the other receivers, provided Orton actually throws the occasional ball downfield that is.

Eddie Royal seemed to be the guy playing this role for us more often than not this year, and he's desperately unsuited to it in all honesty. He's fast, but his real talent is in his short routes and safe hands. If Marshall goes, I expect he'll have a good year in 2010.

gyldenlove
01-07-2010, 09:17 AM
Touchdowns, yards per catch and first downs — those are impact numbers.


I think Ashley Lelie proved that yards per catch is the most useless of all recieving stats and has absolutely no correlation to how good a reciever is.

I agree TDs are a big number and only 4 WRs had more this year than Marshall, that says something (and they all did it in 16 rather than 15 games).

Marshall is only number 10 among WRs for 1st downs, but compounding that with his 5th in TDs that still adds up to a top 10 spot.

gyldenlove
01-07-2010, 09:18 AM
ahh, but it would be ok for a rookie QB to step right in and be the team's best slinger

got it

How many QBs do you have playing on your team? because with the Broncos we only have 1, so whoever that is is automatically the best, it is really a default thing.

ColoradoBuff
01-07-2010, 09:23 AM
everybody is on Bryant...what about Benn from Illinois?

Arrelious Benn - Illinois (HT: 6'2" | WT: 220)
Projection: 1st Round



<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width=130 align=left><TBODY><TR><TD><CENTER>http://sidelinescouting.net/images/logos/big10/illinois.gif
</CENTER><CENTER></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Strengths:
-Has great body control, works the sidelines well and has good footwork, possesses great strength
-Is the complete package, very physical and strong, a tough WR with good size
-Can block very well, and has needed to playing with a mobile QB in Juice Williams
-Good runner after the catch, not afraid of contact, is hard to tackle
-Very hard worker, has improved every year prior to this season
-Has breakaway speed (4.4 40)
-Has good hands

Weaknesses:
-Needs to work on his route running
-Lack of productivity in 2009 (67 catches, 1055 yards last year vs. 36/429 this season)
-Just six career touchdowns

broncofan7
01-07-2010, 09:26 AM
ahh, but it would be ok for a rookie QB to step right in and be the team's best slinger

got it

We could draft and develop a QB this next season--then let Orton kill another season with him lack of telant and with 3 games to go, insert our rookie QB.........THAT IS THE BEST OPTION.

I am still holding out hope for Brandstater--I really liked him in the pre-season.........

but recent hisory has told us that rookie QB's usually fair better in their first season than rookie WR's

DrFate
01-07-2010, 09:26 AM
Marshall will be easy to trade.

Just realize people aren't giving their next 5 #1 picks in the deal...

SonOfLe-loLang
01-07-2010, 09:28 AM
that is actually very interesting

What a load of ****. TO was THAT good and teams couldn't wait to deal him. And Marshall isn't TO crazy

BigPlayShay
01-07-2010, 09:28 AM
I think one thing Brandon needs to work on is actually his YAC. I know this is one thing that fans love to see him do, try and juke and spin, etc..., but I think he actually leaves more yards on the field by doing this. He would be better served just getting up field. That is one part about Gaffney's game that I like. As soon as he makes the catch he turns it up field.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-07-2010, 09:30 AM
X - Bryant
Y - Gaffney
Z - Royal

Better?

I never get this kind of logic. lets see: You already have a young receiver entering his prime that has proven to be one of the top 5 in the game. I know, lets trade that guy for an unproven commodity at the same position! BRILLIANT!

If youre gonna trade marshall, you do it with the eye to upgrade a different position.

oubronco
01-07-2010, 09:38 AM
I think one thing Brandon needs to work on is actually his YAC. I know this is one thing that fans love to see him do, try and juke and spin, etc..., but I think he actually leaves more yards on the field by doing this. He would be better served just getting up field. That is one part about Gaffney's game that I like. As soon as he makes the catch he turns it up field.

yes but if Marshall doesn't do what he does we don't win the Dallas game

cousinal11
01-07-2010, 09:40 AM
I never get this kind of logic. lets see: You already have a young receiver entering his prime that has proven to be one of the top 5 in the game. I know, lets trade that guy for an unproven commodity at the same position! BRILLIANT!

If youre gonna trade marshall, you do it with the eye to upgrade a different position.

Bryant and Marshall are 2 different types of players IMO.

As big and strong as Marshall is, he doesn't stretch the field. As the article is alluding to, most of his catches are short routes where he is facing the QB. He is..um... a dynamic possesion receiver. He moves the chains, I'll give him that.

Bryant would stretch the field and assuming we have someone who can get him the ball, that's 1 thing, among others, this offense needs to address in the offseason.

I don't think we would be trading Marshall to replace him with the same player. You can't possibly tell me you think we can trade Marshall and replace his production in house.

Don't get me wrong, despite all of his off the field drama, I love going to battle with #15. Guy is a beast.

broncos-rock
01-07-2010, 09:48 AM
What about Vincent Jackson? Is he going to be available? Would be nice to bring him back to Colorado.

BigPlayShay
01-07-2010, 09:49 AM
yes but if Marshall doesn't do what he does we don't win the Dallas game

Actually that is a perfect example of him going for extra yards, but making moves going north/south. Too many times he will move backwards, stop his feet, move to the side, etc.. trying to get more yards. It works sometimes, but it is costly in many instances.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 09:50 AM
yes but if Marshall doesn't do what he does we don't win the Dallas game

Why not?

Tied game, and the Broncos have the ball first down at midfield with 2 minutes to go. All they needed was one first down to get in field goal range to kick the game winner.

Rulon Velvet Jones
01-07-2010, 09:51 AM
everybody is on Bryant...what about Benn from Illinois?

Arrelious Benn - Illinois (HT: 6'2" | WT: 220)
Projection: 1st Round



<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width=130 align=left><TBODY><TR><TD><CENTER>http://sidelinescouting.net/images/logos/big10/illinois.gif
</CENTER><CENTER></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Strengths:
-Has great body control, works the sidelines well and has good footwork, possesses great strength
-Is the complete package, very physical and strong, a tough WR with good size
-Can block very well, and has needed to playing with a mobile QB in Juice Williams
-Good runner after the catch, not afraid of contact, is hard to tackle
-Very hard worker, has improved every year prior to this season
-Has breakaway speed (4.4 40)
-Has good hands

Weaknesses:
-Needs to work on his route running
-Lack of productivity in 2009 (67 catches, 1055 yards last year vs. 36/429 this season)
-Just six career touchdowns

Heyward-Bey 2.0

fontaine
01-07-2010, 09:53 AM
This is one of the poorest articles from Legwold who's usually far more insightful.

So, Marshall isn't all that because he's a possession WR that can't stretch the field?

ROFL

Wouldn't that make him all the more valueable to our team because we don't have an offense that throws down field but relies on exactly the kind of player like Marshall to take a 5 yard pass and turn it into a first down?

People talk about Orton locking onto one WR. Well if the play IS DESIGNED to get the ball to Marshall on a 2/3 yard bubble pass so he can gain YAC then what exactly is he going to do without Marshall? Throw it to Stockley/Royal/Gaff. Sorry but those guys aren't going to outmuscle anyone. All three guys go down easily after initial contact with the first defender.

Stockely is strictly limited as a slot guy, Royal is struggling in this new offense and Gaffney as well as he played in the last game IS NOT going to matchup well against good CBs.

Marshall is only WR we have that gives us a positive matchup against almost every CB.

Legwold quoted some GM. But here's another side to that story. When evaluating FAs GMs ask themselves "How many times a season is this guy going to give me a winning/better matchup? How many times a season is this guy going to beat the guy he line's up against?"

And that's the most important thing. Without Marshall we don't have a single WR that offers us that.

Not to mention we can have him for another year and get that kind of production for peanuts! Even if we get a first round pick for him and use him at WR we'll be paying that rookie far more to a long term deal for him to basically warm the bench for his first year because there's no way a rookie WR is going to replace Marshall's production right off the bench.

Marshall can be a pain, no doubt about that. But he's put his legal troubles behind him, so really, it's not a case of whether Marshall will be suspended or what not. It's a case of whether McD can continue a professional relationship with this guy. He doesn't have to love him like a son, but he does have to respect his play.

Jason in LA
01-07-2010, 09:54 AM
Marshall caught a whole lot more short passes this year, which lowered his yards per catch. The two years before this one he was at 13.0 and 12.2. This year 11.1.

gyldenlove
01-07-2010, 09:54 AM
Bryant and Marshall are 2 different types of players IMO.

As big and strong as Marshall is, he doesn't stretch the field. As the article is alluding to, most of his catches are short routes where he is facing the QB. He is..um... a dynamic possesion receiver. He moves the chains, I'll give him that.

Bryant would stretch the field and assuming we have someone who can get him the ball, that's 1 thing, among others, this offense needs to address in the offseason.

I don't think we would be trading Marshall to replace him with the same player. You can't possibly tell me you think we can trade Marshall and replace his production in house.

Don't get me wrong, despite all of his off the field drama, I love going to battle with #15. Guy is a beast.

So you propose trading Orton and what, drafting a QB? Mcdaniels clearly doesn't want Orton throwing down field in most games so all this talk about stretching the field is utter nonsense.

rastaman
01-07-2010, 09:57 AM
Jesus no to the nth degree

we have Eddie Royal who could probably be a better Wes Welker in our system than Wes Welker

How effective would Welker be in our system with Orton throwing to him? vs how effective would Royal be with Brady throwing the ball to him?

TheDave
01-07-2010, 09:58 AM
This is one of the poorest articles from Legwold who's usually far more insightful.

So, Marshall isn't all that because he's a possession WR that can't stretch the field?

ROFL

Wouldn't that make him all the more valueable to our team because we don't have an offense that throws down field but relies on exactly the kind of player like Marshall to take a 5 yard pass and turn it into a first down?

People talk about Orton locking onto one WR. Well if the play IS DESIGNED to get the ball to Marshall on a 2/3 yard bubble pass so he can gain YAC then what exactly is he going to do without Marshall? Throw it to Stockley/Royal/Gaff. Sorry but those guys aren't going to outmuscle anyone. All three guys go down easily after initial contact with the first defender.

Stockely is strictly limited as a slot guy, Royal is struggling in this new offense and Gaffney as well as he played in the last game IS NOT going to matchup well against good CBs.

Marshall is only WR we have that gives us a positive matchup against almost every CB.

Legwold quoted some GM. But here's another side to that story. When evaluating FAs GMs ask themselves "How many times a season is this guy going to give me a winning/better matchup? How many times a season is this guy going to beat the guy he line's up against?"

And that's the most important thing. Without Marshall we don't have a single WR that offers us that.

Marshall can be a pain, no doubt about that. But he's put his legal troubles behind him, so really, it's not a case of whether Marshall will be suspended or what not. It's a case of whether McD can continue a professional relationship with this guy. He doesn't have to love him like a son, but he does have to respect his play.

And that where the real problem is. All the evidence shows that they can't co-exist and I'm sure every team in the league is betting on that.

cousinal11
01-07-2010, 10:00 AM
So you propose trading Orton and what, drafting a QB? Mcdaniels clearly doesn't want Orton throwing down field in most games so all this talk about stretching the field is utter nonsense.

I wasn't suggesting trading Orton. I know this isn't fantasy football. Maybe next season Mcdaniels will trust Kyle to throw more down field. I hope so anyway.

I don't think talk of stretching the field is nonsense. Of course, if you're right and Mcdaniels doesn't trust Orton to do that, then I guess it is. But, alot of NE's success under Mcdaniels was predicated on the ability to stretch the field and Josh has to know that.

Stupid comparison, but the 1st year I coached, I was MUCH less trustworthy of my players that I am today.

Rabb
01-07-2010, 10:02 AM
How many QBs do you have playing on your team? because with the Broncos we only have 1, so whoever that is is automatically the best, it is really a default thing.

I see your point but we cannot say that rookie WR's are exempt from high expectations when the QB isn't

you cannot have it both ways

Rabb
01-07-2010, 10:03 AM
What a load of ****. TO was THAT good and teams couldn't wait to deal him. And Marshall isn't TO crazy

me thinking it is interesting is a load of ****?

wow, ok

fontaine
01-07-2010, 10:08 AM
And that where the real problem is. All the evidence shows that they can't co-exist and I'm sure every team in the league is betting on that.

I know what you're point is. But do you think the coach has a personal and great relationship with every player in his roster? There are plenty of players that don't talk to the HC at all because they do their prep, training etc with positional coaches.

I really don't think it's a personal issue with these guys. It's more of the case that far too much of this crap is getting out to the media who's over blowing all this because they love the player vs young coach angle.

The same damn thing happened in New England with Moss when he was fined or suspended for being late but it was no big deal, even when Moss still takes plays off on the field at times.

You don't get to have 52 Brian Dawkins or Rod Smiths on the team. You have one of those guys usually because that's what makes them different. The rest you tolerate, move on with, work with and get the damn job done.

The Joker
01-07-2010, 10:09 AM
I'd be surprised if we can't get at least a 1st for him.

He's an asshole, that much is pretty clear at this point. But you can't deny just how good he is, and I'm willing to bet there will be more than a few coaches who will look at Marshall and think that they can be the guy to get his head right. The reward you get for focusing Brandon Marshall on football (a top 10 wide receiver in the league) far outweighs the risk of giving up a first round pick.

The issue will be the contract I expect Marshall and his agent to be looking for. If he's looking to set the bar for WR contracts, I'm not sure there'll be more than a couple of owners out there who will consider dishing out the 6 year/ $80m contract we might have Marshall asking for.

That's the real stumbling block for a team signing Marshall.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 10:09 AM
And that where the real problem is. All the evidence shows that they can't co-exist and I'm sure every team in the league is betting on that.

Didn't hurt Cutler's value.

rastaman
01-07-2010, 10:09 AM
If Legwold would have thought about this quote rather than just tacking it on after hitting his word count he might have wrote something with some sense to it.

Marshall is going to get the maximum RFA tender because there will not be a new CBA. That means either A. he plays for the Broncos at ~$3M next season in another contract year. B. his agent finds a team willing to poison pill his contract and also willing to give us a 1st and 3rd to do just that. Or C. his agent finds a team willing to give him the money he wants but who isn't willing to give up a 1st a 3rd. That team then needs to find something other than a 1st and 3rd that the Broncos would be willing to take in return, when refusing anything else simply results in them getting to keep a two time Pro Bowl WR for $3M next season.

The Broncos have all the leverage. Marshall can act like a b**** all he wants but ultimately if he wants to get paid the Broncos either get paid too or he plays his ass off and keeps his nose clean for another season.

My personal bet is that Baltimore will sign him and give us their 1st and 3rd. They'll bet on their strong locker room and a nice contract reigning him in, not to mention being back on the east coast. They need an elite WR to go with Flacco, so its a perfect fit.

Should the Broncos get greedy and stubborn they may be able to sign Brandon for one year at 3 mil. However, think about this Brandon could return to Denver next season and not put up 100 plus reception and deal with McD's mind F*&kng propaganda and have an okay season, and go right back into FA. Question is if Bmarsh's stats decline in 010 can Denver still demand a 1st and 3rd for him in 011?

In 2010 should McD play mind games with Marshall ie, give him a hard time berrate in public or stay on him for not running routes with conviction or is just pissed at Marshall for not playing the last game of year in 09, how long can McD get away from this childess BS, before the players union and league steps in and says ENOUGH!

You need to trade Marshall to put and and to all the BS. Of course McD can bench Marshall for whatever self serving reason in 2010, but if this happens how do you demand a 1st and 2nd for him in the long run?

Naw I think if McD and Bowlen play hard ball with Marshall out of spite it could all come back to haunt this organization in the end.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 10:13 AM
The issue will be the contract I expect Marshall and his agent to be looking for. If he's looking to set the bar for WR contracts, I'm not sure there'll be more than a couple of owners out there who will consider dishing out the 6 year/ $80m contract we might have Marshall asking for.

That's the real stumbling block for a team signing Marshall.

Heyward-Bey signed a 5 year deal for 40 mil with 24 mil of it guaranteed. Any team looking to sign a mid to high first round WR will have to be in that ballpark this year. Why not trade away that pick instead and get the proven top shelf WR for another year and maybe another 5-10 mil guaranteed? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:17 AM
Didn't hurt Cutler's value.

Cutler didn't have any off-field issues... Cutler was not one mistake away from an 8 game suspension...Cutler hasn't been arested for domestic issues several times... Cutler doesn't have a "Numb" hand...Cutler hadn't just been suspended by his coach TWICE the previous season... Marshall isn't a 25 year old Pro-Bowl QB.


Why do people constantly compare the Cutler and Marshall situations?

rastaman
01-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Marshall caught a whole lot more short passes this year, which lowered his yards per catch. The two years before this one he was at 13.0 and 12.2. This year 11.1.

Agreed. Marshall isn't a deep threat WR per say. He's more effect if you get him the ball ins space like a slant routes and you hit him full stride. Thats where Marshall can really utilize his size and skill. Throwing Brandon passes where he stops turns around and catches the pass is actually counter productive and doesn't play to Marshalls strong suit.

There's a vast difference btwn Orton throwing Bmarsh slant routes vs the big arm QB's in the league like Breeze, Brady, Carson, Farve, Manning, Flacco etc.

manchambo
01-07-2010, 10:19 AM
This is what really concerns me about what McDaniels did with his suspension for the last game.

If you are the coach, and you conclude once and for all that you can't put up with this idiot and you need to trade him in the offseason, do you (a) make a huge spectacle by sitting him and making comments to the press about "accountability" and questioning his injury, or (b) grit your teeth and either let him sit with his supposed hamstring injury or, if he decides to play, play him and try to get him 20 catches to drive up his value?

Just doesn't make any sense.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:19 AM
I know what you're point is. But do you think the coach has a personal and great relationship with every player in his roster? There are plenty of players that don't talk to the HC at all because they do their prep, training etc with positional coaches.

I really don't think it's a personal issue with these guys. It's more of the case that far too much of this crap is getting out to the media who's over blowing all this because they love the player vs young coach angle.

The same damn thing happened in New England with Moss when he was fined or suspended for being late but it was no big deal, even when Moss still takes plays off on the field at times.

You don't get to have 52 Brian Dawkins or Rod Smiths on the team. You have one of those guys usually because that's what makes them different. The rest you tolerate, move on with, work with and get the damn job done.

I completely agree with what you are saying except for one area... I think it is a personal issue with these guys. Why else would the coach deactivate Marshall and then go as far as barring him from the locker room and sidelines on game day?

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 10:22 AM
Cutler didn't have any off-field issues... Cutler was not one mistake away from an 8 game suspension...Cutler hasn't been arested for domestic issues several times... Cutler doesn't have a "Numb" hand...Cutler hadn't just been suspended by his coach TWICE the previous season... Marshall isn't a 25 year old Pro-Bowl QB.


Why do people constantly compare the Cutler and Marshall situations?

How soon we forget.

Beetus + constant boozing, allegedly the night before games = big red flag. Hell, even just the beetus alone was a red flag in several reports around this time last year when the trade discussion started to heat up.

The Joker
01-07-2010, 10:23 AM
Heyward-Bey signed a 5 year deal for 40 mil with 24 mil of it guaranteed. Any team looking to sign a mid to high first round WR will have to be in that ballpark this year. Why not trade away that pick instead and get the proven top shelf WR for another year and maybe another 5-10 mil guaranteed? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

It would be, if Marshall wasn't a massive character concern.

I'd be worried about dumping a truckload of money on the doorstep of a guy who not only has several arrests to his name in the last few years, but also has had two seperate head coaches question whether he was exaggerating the severity of an injury.

gyldenlove
01-07-2010, 10:23 AM
I see your point but we cannot say that rookie WR's are exempt from high expectations when the QB isn't

you cannot have it both ways

Absolutely, no rookie is exempt from expectations, I just think it is easier to force a rookie QB on the field and contribute something than it is with a WR.

Mark Sanchez is a good example, not exactly a stellar season by any means, but he still managed to contribute. Had a rookie WR been out there making all those mistakes he wouldn't have made much impact because he would have been benched.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 10:25 AM
It would be, if Marshall wasn't a massive character concern.

I'd be worried about dumping a truckload of money on the doorstep of a guy who not only has several arrests to his name in the last few years, but also has had two seperate head coaches question whether he was exaggerating the severity of an injury.

There's nothing you can do to protect yourself in a rookie contract if they turn out to be a bust. There is plenty you can do to protect yourself in terms of arrests, etc.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:26 AM
How soon we forget.

Beetus + constant boozing, allegedly the night before games = big red flag. Hell, even just the beetus alone was a red flag in several reports around this time last year when the trade discussion started to heat up.

Nothing about Marshalls problems are aleged... Cutlers "constant boozing" is an OM rumor that may or may not be true.

and the only people scared of type 1 "beetus" are here on the mane as well.

Like I said, the two situations are incomparable. I think we will be lucky to get a 2nd round pick and maybe a role player for him. If that's the case I hope we can find a way of keeping him, unfortunately I don't think that is going to be possible.

lifeafter elway
01-07-2010, 10:26 AM
Assuming there is no lock out in '11 - Marshall would be a free agent, so the Broncos would not get anything. But next year would be a contract year. He won't dog it because he wants to get paid.

That being said, as disappointing as it is - he is done here. Either we get a 1 and a 3, or we settle for less, but I can't see him on the field next year. I love him on the field, but he and McD don't get along. McD is the boss, and he won't bow down. He is a special player, but I suspect a special player for someone else.


Should the Broncos get greedy and stubborn they may be able to sign Brandon for one year at 3 mil. However, think about this Brandon could return to Denver next season and not put up 100 plus reception and deal with McD's mind F*&kng propaganda and have an okay season, and go right back into FA. Question is if Bmarsh's stats decline in 010 can Denver still demand a 1st and 3rd for him in 011?

In 2010 should McD play mind games with Marshall ie, give him a hard time berrate in public or stay on him for not running routes with conviction or is just pissed at Marshall for not playing the last game of year in 09, how long can McD get away from this childess BS, before the players union and league steps in and says ENOUGH!

You need to trade Marshall to put and and to all the BS. Of course McD can bench Marshall for whatever self serving reason in 2010, but if this happens how do you demand a 1st and 2nd for him in the long run?

Naw I think if McD and Bowlen play hard ball with Marshall out of spite it could all come back to haunt this organization in the end.

Rabb
01-07-2010, 10:27 AM
How soon we forget.

Beetus + constant boozing, allegedly the night before games = big red flag. Hell, even just the beetus alone was a red flag in several reports around this time last year when the trade discussion started to heat up.

I absolutely see your point and sort of agree but there is a galactic difference between BMarsh's "off the field" issues and Jay's

it isn't even close, Jay never got into the kind of league and legal trouble Brandon did

gtown
01-07-2010, 10:28 AM
Just remember Roy Williams went to the Cowgirls for a first. There will be a market for Brandon, especially if his agent can sell his case as justifiably disgruntled.

I bet we can get a first and a third or a first and an impact player for him.

Rabb
01-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Absolutely, no rookie is exempt from expectations, I just think it is easier to force a rookie QB on the field and contribute something than it is with a WR.

Mark Sanchez is a good example, not exactly a stellar season by any means, but he still managed to contribute. Had a rookie WR been out there making all those mistakes he wouldn't have made much impact because he would have been benched.

I agree with that, when you get a rookie QB of a high caliber (or any high caliber QB for that matter) you are basically saying he is one of 2 or 3 guys...bottom line so you are stuck with fewer options

I think I was more directing it to bronco"fan"7 who has constantly bashed Orton and said a rookie would be an answer when he is saying it wouldn't be fair to expect the same from a WR

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:30 AM
Just remember Roy Williams went to the Cowgirls for a first. There will be a market for Brandon, especially if his agent can sell his case as justifiably disgruntled.

I bet we can get a first and a third or a first and an impact player for him.

Then why was the best offer for him rumored to be a 4th rounder this last offseason?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-07-2010, 10:34 AM
me thinking it is interesting is a load of ****?

wow, ok

Relax, i meant what you were commenting on was a load of bull****

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 10:36 AM
Nothing about Marshalls problems are aleged...

On the contrary, almost all of it is. Just look at his conviction rate.

cutthemdown
01-07-2010, 10:40 AM
Marshal leaves denver and we get maybe a 2nd round pick at most.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:41 AM
On the contrary, almost all of it is. Just look at his conviction rate.

I never said anything about his "Conviction Rate" just that he had been arrested multiple times.

Look if you want to pretend that Cutler was considered an off-field risk similiar to Marshall, then have at it... Just don't be surprised when that magical 1st and 3rd don't show up.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 10:47 AM
I know it's hardly scientific, but this time last year I took an informal poll of my buddies of what the Broncos could expect to get for Cutler. These are mostly Pats fans, one Jets fan, one Browns fan, one Rams fan and one Skins fan. They all thought I was crazy when I said they'd get 2 first rounders for him.

I did the same over the last week or so with the same group. Asked them about the chances of them getting the first and third for him if they gave him the hight RFA tender. All came back with "they'll have no problem getting that for him."

Again, obviously not scientific, but it comes from a good cross section of fairly unbiased fans. I just can't even fathom the "one 2nd round pick at best" scenario. That's just insane.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:50 AM
I know it's hardly scientific, but this time last year I took an informal poll of my buddies of what the Broncos could expect to get for Cutler. These are mostly Pats fans, one Jets fan, one Browns fan, one Rams fan and one Skins fan. They all thought I was crazy when I said they'd get 2 first rounders for him.

I did the same over the last week or so with the same group. Asked them about the chances of them getting the first and third for him if they gave him the hight RFA tender. All came back with "they'll have no problem getting that for him."

Again, obviously not scientific, but it comes from a good cross section of fairly unbiased fans. I just can't even fathom the "one 2nd round pick at best" scenario. That's just insane.

Hey, I hope you are right... I guess we will find out in a few months.

gtown
01-07-2010, 10:56 AM
Then why was the best offer for him rumored to be a 4th rounder this last offseason?

Rumors are just that. The final tally on the Williams trade: "The Cowboys will give up a first-round pick in 2009, plus a third- and sixth-rounder that year for Williams and a seventh-round pick in '10." http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3643295

Brandon has three 100 catch seasons, two probowls, and lots of highlight reel plays. I am willing to bet that he will yield the same, if not more, than Roy Williams did.

TonyR
01-07-2010, 10:58 AM
Then why was the best offer for him rumored to be a 4th rounder this last offseason?

I think largely because of the unresolved legal troubles and injury concerns. Neither is an issue now.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 10:59 AM
I think largely because of the unresolved legal troubles and injury concerns. Neither is an issue now.

Actually that was during his suspension, so that would have been after his legal troubles were behind him.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 11:04 AM
Rumors are just that. The final tally on the Williams trade: "The Cowboys will give up a first-round pick in 2009, plus a third- and sixth-rounder that year for Williams and a seventh-round pick in '10." http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3643295

Brandon has three 100 catch seasons, two probowls, and lots of highlight reel plays. I am willing to bet that he will yield the same, if not more, than Roy Williams did.

God I hope you are right... but I absolutely doubt it. Every team in the league knows the issues our coach and him have. I think it's a long shot going for a 1st. Maybe a team like Baltimore whose picking in the mid to late 20's would be a chance... But a #1, #3, #6, & #7 That is just nuts.

gtown
01-07-2010, 11:06 AM
If Bowlen trades Brandon for virtually nothing, he will have lost his nerve as a pro sports owner and you can count on Broncos mediocrity for the foreseeable future. Marshall is a jerk, but so are a lot of top athletes. Either pay him what he deserves or get the farm for him via trade. No other option IMHO.

Rabb
01-07-2010, 11:07 AM
Relax, i meant what you were commenting on was a load of bull****

:flower:

sorry

TheDave
01-07-2010, 11:07 AM
If Bowlen trades Brandon for virtually nothing, he will have lost his nerve as a pro sports owner and you can count on Broncos mediocrity for the foreseeable future. Marshall is a jerk, but so are a lot of top athletes. Either pay him what he deserves or get the farm for him via trade. No other option IMHO.

On that we completely agree... That's why I hope the issues between him and the coach can be worked out.

gtown
01-07-2010, 11:17 AM
On that we completely agree... That's why I hope the issues between him and the coach can be worked out.

With a mercenary like Marshall, the power of cash may well heal all wounds.

ColoradoDarin
01-07-2010, 11:43 AM
It's really not that hard. We tender him with a 1st & 3rd. A few things can happen after that:

1. No one offers him a contract because they don't want to give up those picks - We keep him at ~$3m and he plays for us.

2. No one offers him a contract and he holds out - I just can't see him sitting out and giving up $3m (he didn't sit out for $2.2M this year)

3. Multiple teams want him and the bidding starts at a 1st & 3rd - best case for us with him leaving

4. One team bites and ponies up the 1st & 3rd

I think 4 is most likely. Someone who is in the playoffs this year with a low 1st or a team that just missed (Ravens, Titans, maybe the Dolphins or Jaguars)

rastaman
01-07-2010, 11:48 AM
It's really not that hard. We tender him with a 1st & 3rd. A few things can happen after that:

1. No one offers him a contract because they don't want to give up those picks - We keep him at ~$3m and he plays for us.

2. No one offers him a contract and he holds out - I just can't see him sitting out and giving up $3m (he didn't sit out for $2.2M this year)

3. Multiple teams want him and the bidding starts at a 1st & 3rd - best case for us with him leaving

4. One team bites and ponies up the 1st & 3rd

I think 4 is most likely. Someone who is in the playoffs this year with a low 1st or a team that just missed (Ravens, Titans, maybe the Dolphins or Jaguars)


Lets say there are no takers for Brandon next season and McD and Marshall must endure one another for one more year, can we ask a 1st and a 3rd for him in 2011?

broncofan7
01-07-2010, 11:50 AM
IF we get less than a 1st & a 3rd it will be a COLOSSAL mistake to not sign him.

pink_feet
01-07-2010, 11:50 AM
maybe this "other GM" is just trying to lower Marshall's value to get him?

I bet we'll tender him 1st & 3rd, and someone will sign him.

Dunno.
I dont think anyone is going to give up more than a 2nd round pick for Marshall.
He is a talent, but his attitude will shy teams away.

Highly doubt we will get a 1st round pick for him.

ColoradoDarin
01-07-2010, 11:52 AM
Lets say there are no takers for Brandon next season and McD and Marshall must endure one another for one more year, can we ask a 1st and a 3rd for him in 2011?

Depends on the CBA (assuming there is a new one) or we can slap him with a Franchise tag and then trade him. I don't know what we'd get in that sense, but it'd be similar to Matt Cassel last year (except the Pats were up against the Cap so they had to move him quickly, who knows what the Cap will look like, if there is one, and how far under it we are). We still hold the cards.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 11:58 AM
It's really not that hard. We tender him with a 1st & 3rd. A few things can happen after that:

1. No one offers him a contract because they don't want to give up those picks - We keep him at ~$3m and he plays for us.

2. No one offers him a contract and he holds out - I just can't see him sitting out and giving up $3m (he didn't sit out for $2.2M this year)

3. Multiple teams want him and the bidding starts at a 1st & 3rd - best case for us with him leaving

4. One team bites and ponies up the 1st & 3rd

I think 4 is most likely. Someone who is in the playoffs this year with a low 1st or a team that just missed (Ravens, Titans, maybe the Dolphins or Jaguars)

That's not a real good scenario... Best case, it goes like it did this year with a couple of big plays and a couple of suspensions. At that point he walks as a FA.

No thanks, either sign him long term or trade him. We don't need the horse **** drama again.

Denver724
01-07-2010, 12:03 PM
What if the Bears and Bates really want him. Cutler would love to have him. Can we possible trade him to the Bears for their 3rd this year and their 1st and 2nd next year (1st and 2nd this year are gone)? Taking future picks is somewhat risky knowing that Cutler to Marshall probably gives them more wins. That is why they give us a 1st and 2nd next year. Pipe dream?

SureShot
01-07-2010, 12:04 PM
What we need to hope for is multiple teams interested to drive the price up.

Drek
01-07-2010, 12:07 PM
That's not a real good scenario... Best case, it goes like it did this year with a couple of big plays and a couple of suspensions. At that point he walks as a FA.

No thanks, either sign him long term or trade him. We don't need the horse **** drama again.

No, at that point you franchise tag him and he gets to play another year hoping for the big contract.

This is the NFL, not MLB or the NBA. Marshall has pretty much zero leverage other than acting like a fool, and if his agent is even half way decent he should be making it clear to Marshall that he's only costing himself more money by doing that.

If there are no takers and he comes back here at a $3M RFA tender he'll either bring a renewed outlook or he'll see a lot fewer touches. McDaniels tailored the passing game around Marshall this season and Marshall still punked out in the end. If he's back at all next season he's going to be part of a system.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 12:10 PM
No, at that point you franchise tag him and he gets to play another year hoping for the big contract.

This is the NFL, not MLB or the NBA. Marshall has pretty much zero leverage other than acting like a fool, and if his agent is even half way decent he should be making it clear to Marshall that he's only costing himself more money by doing that.

If there are no takers and he comes back here at a $3M RFA tender he'll either bring a renewed outlook or he'll see a lot fewer touches. McDaniels tailored the passing game around Marshall this season and Marshall still punked out in the end. If he's back at all next season he's going to be part of a system.

Did you miss the part where he was suspended TWICE this season?

Why would you want to keep flicking matches at this powder keg?

Either sign him long term or trade him... Period!

Rabb
01-07-2010, 12:12 PM
he wasn't suspended twice, he was suspended once and benched once

or did I miss something?

I do agree though Dave, sign or trade the guy and get it over with already...I am starting to not care

DrFate
01-07-2010, 12:13 PM
If the coach (and allegedly the team captains) think this guy is a quitter, I don't see how retaining his services is an option.

I still think a 2nd is in the right range - same as we gave for Javon Walker.

Nobody is giving the world for Marshall, not with off field issues and his HC calling him a quitter.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 12:14 PM
he wasn't suspended twice, he was suspended once and benched once

or did I miss something?

I do agree though Dave, sign or trade the guy and get it over with already...I am starting to not care

I call it suspended because he was not allowed in the locker room or on the sideline... but technically he was "Deactivated"

yavoon
01-07-2010, 12:14 PM
super reincarnation of art monk?

Rabb
01-07-2010, 12:15 PM
I call it suspended because he was not allowed in the locker room or on the sideline... but technically he was "Deactivated"

definitely both had the same message, I will give you that one

I just cannot imagine Brandon is a big hit with the team right now overall, but what do I know

Denver724
01-07-2010, 12:15 PM
Morts take on the Bears getting Marshall (from espn.com chat)

Who says no first, Hester for Marshall?

Bears. Shanahan and Cutler were pretty fed up with Marshall last season. Trust me on that.

missingnumber7
01-07-2010, 12:17 PM
Morts take on the Bears getting Marshall (from espn.com chat)

Who says no first, Hester for Marshall?

Bears. Shanahan and Cutler were pretty fed up with Marshall last season. Trust me on that.

Yea, but Cutler is sure fed up with not having a quality WR to throw to.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 12:18 PM
I still think a 2nd is in the right range - same as we gave for Javon Walker.

Walker's trade value was literally at an all time low when he was dealt. Injured and coming off a season with 26 receptions, 287 yds and 0 TDs.

Marshall's trade value is at least arguably at an all time high for him.

cutthemdown
01-07-2010, 12:22 PM
I know it's hardly scientific, but this time last year I took an informal poll of my buddies of what the Broncos could expect to get for Cutler. These are mostly Pats fans, one Jets fan, one Browns fan, one Rams fan and one Skins fan. They all thought I was crazy when I said they'd get 2 first rounders for him.

I did the same over the last week or so with the same group. Asked them about the chances of them getting the first and third for him if they gave him the hight RFA tender. All came back with "they'll have no problem getting that for him."

Again, obviously not scientific, but it comes from a good cross section of fairly unbiased fans. I just can't even fathom the "one 2nd round pick at best" scenario. That's just insane.


You need to understand that along with the 1st and 3rd you have to throw in a ton of money to a player one mistake away from a 4 game or more suspension. So you lose 2 high picks, you lose a ton of money, and you have a player who isn't exactly without baggage.

comparing it to Cutler is stupid because he's a QB. Everyone in the NFL remembers Moss went for a 4th round pick. No way Broncos get a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick for Marshal.

In fact I bet he doesn't get any offers all that great in RFA. Teams won't be looking to break the bank for a physical possession WR. Marshall is the best possession WR in the NFL but still I don't think we get a bunch for him because of the facts I laid out.

Beantown Bronco
01-07-2010, 12:25 PM
You need to understand that along with the 1st and 3rd you have to throw in a ton of money to a player one mistake away from a 4 game or more suspension. So you lose 2 high picks, you lose a ton of money, and you have a player who isn't exactly without baggage.


Not much more money than Heyward Bey + that third rounder would command.

ColoradoDarin
01-07-2010, 12:26 PM
You need to understand that along with the 1st and 3rd you have to throw in a ton of money to a player one mistake away from a 4 game or more suspension. So you lose 2 high picks, you lose a ton of money, and you have a player who isn't exactly without baggage.

comparing it to Cutler is stupid because he's a QB. Everyone in the NFL remembers Moss went for a 4th round pick. No way Broncos get a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick for Marshal.

In fact I bet he doesn't get any offers all that great in RFA. Teams won't be looking to break the bank for a physical possession WR. Marshall is the best possession WR in the NFL but still I don't think we get a bunch for him because of the facts I laid out.

Moss had dogged it for 2 years in Oakland, Marshall has other issues - I don't think those situations are comparable. He'll get somewhere around what the 'boys gave up for Roy Williams (better on the field, worse off).

watermock
01-07-2010, 12:32 PM
I am pretty sure we can fill the void of Brandon far easier than the leadership of Dawkins.

Wow.

Besides, all the tender does is allow us to match. We can still rade for some dried beans and 2 hookers.

Scheff has become a Rodney Dangerfield joke. "Take my tight ass wife, please".

At least we won't be able to blow 3 firsts this yearr, it'll cut down space on Joshie's index card.

TheDave
01-07-2010, 12:34 PM
Wow.

Besides, all the tender does is allow us to match. We can still rade for some dried beans and 2 hookers.

Scheff has become a Rodney Dangerfield joke. "Take my tight ass wife, please".

At least we won't be able to blow 3 firsts this yearr, it'll cut down space on Joshie's index card.

Just when I think it's safe to take you off iggy.

Back to the list...

watermock
01-07-2010, 12:47 PM
I completely agree with what you are saying except for one area... I think it is a personal issue with these guys. Why else would the coach deactivate Marshall and then go as far as barring him from the locker room and sidelines on game day?

'cause he an immature moron.

watermock
01-07-2010, 12:51 PM
Just when I think it's safe to take you off iggy.

Back to the list...

Fine. Think I care?

I'm right. If you can't handle it go jump off a bridge.

gunns
01-07-2010, 12:52 PM
everybody is on Bryant...what about Benn from Illinois?

Arrelious Benn - Illinois (HT: 6'2" | WT: 220)
Projection: 1st Round



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</CENTER><CENTER></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Strengths:
-Has great body control, works the sidelines well and has good footwork, possesses great strength
-Is the complete package, very physical and strong, a tough WR with good size
-Can block very well, and has needed to playing with a mobile QB in Juice Williams
-Good runner after the catch, not afraid of contact, is hard to tackle
-Very hard worker, has improved every year prior to this season
-Has breakaway speed (4.4 40)
-Has good hands

Weaknesses:
-Needs to work on his route running
-Lack of productivity in 2009 (67 catches, 1055 yards last year vs. 36/429 this season)
-Just six career touchdowns

Oh God no. A WR taken in the 1st round rarely is or becomes a game changer for a team. Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, maybe Calvin Johnson. Please do not let the Broncos do something that stupid again.

cutthemdown
01-07-2010, 01:02 PM
Moss had dogged it for 2 years in Oakland, Marshall has other issues - I don't think those situations are comparable. He'll get somewhere around what the 'boys gave up for Roy Williams (better on the field, worse off).

I doubt it really. IMO GMS have learned from trades like Roy Williams that its better not to give up a 1st rounder.

I hope I am wrong I really do. IMO though no one signs Marshal at the high tender.

vancejohnson82
01-07-2010, 01:46 PM
If the coach (and allegedly the team captains) think this guy is a quitter, I don't see how retaining his services is an option.

I still think a 2nd is in the right range - same as we gave for Javon Walker.

Nobody is giving the world for Marshall, not with off field issues and his HC calling him a quitter.

but Javon Walker was coming off season ending knee surgery.....plus I'm pretty sure the consensus is that Marshall is a MUCH better player than Walker was back then

Lolad
01-07-2010, 02:29 PM
If the coach (and allegedly the team captains) think this guy is a quitter, I don't see how retaining his services is an option.

I still think a 2nd is in the right range - same as we gave for Javon Walker.

Nobody is giving the world for Marshall, not with off field issues and his HC calling him a quitter.

Roy Williams got a 1st from the Cowboys.. What makes you think Marshall can't get a 1st?

Requiem
01-07-2010, 03:11 PM
I'd welcome Arrelious here with open arms, but not where we are selecting right now. In my eyes, he is a guy you take in the latter portion of round one if available. Benns lack of production this year is because of the ineffectiveness at quarterback for the Illini. I think he can be a receiver who can have a DeSean Jackson type impact in the NFL as a rookie, as long as he is in the right system and is utilized correctly. I like pairing a guy like Benn, with a stronger armed quarterback who can get it downfield. I am not trying to diss Orton here, but if you want a guy like Benn, you have to have the arm to make use of his abilities.

If the Bears are unable to find or trade for a quality FA (WR), I would expect a local guy like Benn to go to the Bears. Oh wait, they don't have a pick to the third round. **** what I just said buddies.

DBroncos4life
01-07-2010, 03:13 PM
Oh God no. A WR taken in the 1st round rarely is or becomes a game changer for a team. Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, maybe Calvin Johnson. Please do not let the Broncos do something that stupid again.

Marvin Harrison and Randy Moss say hello.

broncocalijohn
01-07-2010, 03:16 PM
maybe this "other GM" is just trying to lower Marshall's value to get him?

I bet we'll tender him 1st & 3rd, and someone will sign him.

let it float out there. This article briefly states that the yards average might be the system. Ya think? How many catches did V. Jackson pull off deep down field? That helps a ton in yards per catch when you get a 40 yard bomb and run another 20 yards. Marshall has value to a team. At least a warm weather team. Im thinking NFC west.

DBroncos4life
01-07-2010, 03:21 PM
let it float out there. This article briefly states that the yards average might be the system. Ya think? How many catches did V. Jackson pull off deep down field? That helps a ton in yards per catch when you get a 40 yard bomb and run another 20 yards. Marshall has value to a team. At least a warm weather team. Im thinking NFC west.

Any GM that doesn't think Marshall has value won't be a GM for long. Does Marshall come with baggage? Sure he does, but it is not everyday that a WR coming off 3 straight 100 catch season's becomes available. San Fran tops my teams that will try for him.

broncocalijohn
01-07-2010, 03:21 PM
Moss had dogged it for 2 years in Oakland, Marshall has other issues - I don't think those situations are comparable. He'll get somewhere around what the 'boys gave up for Roy Williams (better on the field, worse off).

moss didnt dog it. He shut his mouth as long as possible. He did what could be done in Oakland.

Rigs11
01-07-2010, 03:26 PM
That's why 65 of Marshall's catches this season, with runs after the catch included, went for 10 yards or fewer. That's 64.4 percent of his receiving plays. And 30 of his catch-and-run plays went for 5 yards or fewer, including two for negative yardage. That's 29.7 percent and basically amounts to a running play.

Wait. what? i thought the Orton bashers around here base Orton's passing yards on YAC? hmmmm..

Requiem
01-07-2010, 03:29 PM
Marvin Harrison and Randy Moss say hello.

Plenty of receivers who were picked first who are contributing to their teams, or had a lot of success. Many have also failed. It is all a crapshoot. Premiums have been put in elite receivers for a time, which is why you see many teams going for them early, and often. Evaluate the player we take based on him, and not the position. We need all the help we can get on this team, and Benn would be a nice step forward. But he's not a safety, so Gunns wouldn't support the pick ever.

NFLBRONCO
01-07-2010, 03:35 PM
BM is talented period he just needs the right coach to handle him. He isn't as bad as most make him out to be. I swear new contract and a team that wins more he'd be fine.

Drek
01-07-2010, 04:27 PM
Did you miss the part where he was suspended TWICE this season?

Why would you want to keep flicking matches at this powder keg?

Either sign him long term or trade him... Period!

And we don't pay him when he gets suspended, so what's the problem?

No salary cap this year. We'd be well under it if there was one. Doom and maybe Orton are the only guys we need to lock up. We can easily afford to let Brandon pout his way out of the league at a $3M cap hit we'd not have to pay, or even a $9M franchise tender the year after if the league even plays football in 2011.

broncos-rock
01-07-2010, 05:36 PM
What about a trade with the browns for cribbs and a 3rd for bMarsh?

fontaine
01-08-2010, 07:39 AM
And we don't pay him when he gets suspended, so what's the problem?

No salary cap this year. We'd be well under it if there was one. Doom and maybe Orton are the only guys we need to lock up. We can easily afford to let Brandon pout his way out of the league at a $3M cap hit we'd not have to pay, or even a $9M franchise tender the year after if the league even plays football in 2011.

Exactly.

I'm all for getting rid of this guy if we had an immediate replacement, but we don't. Trading Marshall only adds another need to the offseason full of needs already along the trenches.

Yes he's got issues, but people here need to remind themselves that a 1st round pick at WR really means nothing. The last couple of guys to be in this organisation that were first round picks? Lelie and Chad Johnson.

Right now I would rather keep Marshall for another year because he'll be a RFA, give McD this complete offseason to focus on rebuilding the trenches and then hope that in 2010 guys like Royal, and Lloyd can really step up and rise in this offense. If they do along with Gaff on a CONSISTENT basis, then we can think about trading Marshall, but only then because we've got guys that can replace him.

Right now we DON'T. And trading away Marshall this offseason would just divert picks away from the trenches.

You don't trade away a vital part of this offense unless you're damn sure his production can be replaced like we used to be able to trade away RBs.

This is exactly the problem we had in Denver for years. Instead of drafting hogs in the OL/DL we kept pissing away first day picks on DB/WR busts. I don't want this team going down that road again for the next 3/4 years.

We're stocked at WR/DB positions and this is the time, NOW to rebuild our lines.

Ray Finkle
01-08-2010, 07:47 AM
What about a trade with the browns for cribbs and a 3rd for bMarsh?

ewwwwwwwwww

Marshall is worth more than a 3rd and Danta Hall/Hester clone.

TheDave
01-08-2010, 08:40 AM
And we don't pay him when he gets suspended, so what's the problem?

No salary cap this year. We'd be well under it if there was one. Doom and maybe Orton are the only guys we need to lock up. We can easily afford to let Brandon pout his way out of the league at a $3M cap hit we'd not have to pay, or even a $9M franchise tender the year after if the league even plays football in 2011.

Problem is you are completely ignoring what suspending a guy like Marshall does to the locker room. Now I'm not saying that our last game was all because of the Brandon Marshall incedent, but did that look like a focused team that was ready to play? Additionally, if your plan is to just sign his ass to some crappy contract and "Watch him pout his way out of the league" then get someting in return for him now.

Seriously folks this isn't that tough, you either trade his troubled ass and get what you can, or you sign him long term and hope the money makes him happy... for a while at least.

fontaine
01-08-2010, 11:41 AM
Problem is you are completely ignoring what suspending a guy like Marshall does to the locker room. Now I'm not saying that our last game was all because of the Brandon Marshall incedent, but did that look like a focused team that was ready to play? Additionally, if your plan is to just sign his ass to some crappy contract and "Watch him pout his way out of the league" then get someting in return for him now.

Didn't we start off 6-0 when Marshall was acting up during the offseason, kicking footballs in disgust?

If this team is so weak that it nose dives as soon as a player has a problem with his contract then the organisation might as well blow up the entire roster.

Players like Cribbs, that possession WR in zona, Jafatass and Cable punching out one of his assistants, Ocho Cinco etc etc. The list goes on.

Nearly EVERY team has issues with players and so on. That didn't stop them getting to the playoffs or finishing the season stronger than the Broncos.

If we fail next year it won't be because Marshall wants a new contract or says too much to the media. It'll be for the same damn reason we fail every year and that's getting dominated in the trenches.

robbieopperude
01-08-2010, 02:14 PM
Jesus no to the nth degree

we have Eddie Royal who could probably be a better Wes Welker in our system than Wes Welker

Eddie Royal is no Wes Welker and landing Santana Moss back in the trade with Washington was just an idea so we get a veteran receiver back. I doubt they give us Devin Thomas. Washington's 2nd and 3rd round picks would be nice though. Maybe we could even throw Hillis in the deal for Shanny.

Rabb
01-08-2010, 02:18 PM
Eddie Royal is no Wes Welker and landing Santana Moss back in the trade with Washington was just an idea so we get a veteran receiver back. I doubt they give us Devin Thomas. Washington's 2nd and 3rd round picks would be nice though. Maybe we could even throw Hillis in the deal for Shanny.

I will only concede because to this point he has not been used that way, but Eddie is by far and away more talented and would dominate in that type of role.

Cool Breeze
01-08-2010, 02:23 PM
Didn't we start off 6-0 when Marshall was acting up during the offseason, kicking footballs in disgust?

If this team is so weak that it nose dives as soon as a player has a problem with his contract then the organisation might as well blow up the entire roster.

Players like Cribbs, that possession WR in zona, Jafatass and Cable punching out one of his assistants, Ocho Cinco etc etc. The list goes on.

Nearly EVERY team has issues with players and so on. That didn't stop them getting to the playoffs or finishing the season stronger than the Broncos.

If we fail next year it won't be because Marshall wants a new contract or says too much to the media. It'll be for the same damn reason we fail every year and that's getting dominated in the trenches.

Winner!

WolfpackGuy
01-08-2010, 02:29 PM
It'll be for the same damn reason we fail every year and that's getting dominated in the trenches.


But they traded up to get, not Ron Brace, but Phonsie Smith!

rastaman
01-08-2010, 03:55 PM
And we don't pay him when he gets suspended, so what's the problem?

No salary cap this year. We'd be well under it if there was one. Doom and maybe Orton are the only guys we need to lock up. We can easily afford to let Brandon pout his way out of the league at a $3M cap hit we'd not have to pay, or even a $9M franchise tender the year after if the league even plays football in 2011.

If McD agrees with you and tries to pull this crap! I hope Brandon comes back and is a living hell for McD! Wouldn't it be great to watch them both play mind games with each other and see which one blinks first!

Whats going to happen when McD tries to sell his BS to Marshall of making amends etc......and Brandon just tells McD straight up: "Hey man! That ship has sailed. The NFL is a business not a Kumby ya factory....you and I don't and will never trust one another and my job is to play football----I'm not required to like you nor be your buddy! I gotta go practice coach see out on the practice field!!!!

All Marshall needs to do is be the same player in 2010 as he was in 2009, report to camp for his measly 3 mil, and practice well not be a distraction and not be benched or suspended and start the season, endure McD's "ding and dunk" offense, but just not kill himself with the YAC!

In other words, Bmarsh needs to catch the ball and just allow the first tackler to bring him down or just run into the nearest tackler or run out of bounds when the opportunity presents itself. What is McD going to do? Bench Marshall for not allowing 2 or 3 tacklers to bring him down as he attempts to make something out of nothing? I think not. Will McD bench Bmarsh b/c although he's catching the ball....but he's looking to run out of bounds?

If McD decides to force BMarsh to return or makes it difficult for teams to trade for Brandon out of pure spite! Brandon has every right to take his performance down just a notch. Will this hurt the team....sure, however, at that stage it has already become a War of Wills! Had McD really thought about the best inerest of the team....he willl make sure he compromises and trade BMarsh out of Denver by any means possible...like just ask for a 1st round pick and be done with the matter.

So yeah.....I dare McD to force Brandon to stay in Denver another year unnecessarily b/c in the end he will have wished he didn't.

Remember, Marshall's leverage consist of his youth, staying healthy, his talent, and his ability to stay out of trouble off the field.

kamakazi_kal
01-08-2010, 04:13 PM
I will only concede because to this point he has not been used that way, but Eddie is by far and away more talented and would dominate in that type of role.

his 30 some catches says otherwise.

Drek
01-08-2010, 10:22 PM
Problem is you are completely ignoring what suspending a guy like Marshall does to the locker room. Now I'm not saying that our last game was all because of the Brandon Marshall incedent, but did that look like a focused team that was ready to play? Additionally, if your plan is to just sign his ass to some crappy contract and "Watch him pout his way out of the league" then get someting in return for him now.

Seriously folks this isn't that tough, you either trade his troubled ass and get what you can, or you sign him long term and hope the money makes him happy... for a while at least.
That something is a 1st and a 3rd to open negotiations. If a team really wants him they could probably get the FO to take less, but I doubt they'd take much less (2nd and 3rd, or just a 1st).

Marshall's bull**** had nothing to do with this team's focus. Going 2-8 down the stretch and having both sides of the ball thoroughly exposed by Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Washington, and San Diego in order demoralized this club. The talent has no faith in the trenches, the trenches have no faith in their ability to produce. As a result no one expects to win because they know they can't win at the LOS.

Marshall will likely do the same bull**** he did this year and actually give a damn right up until he's got his stats and Pro Bowl nod locked up. If he's no longer the center of the offense though that won't come nearly as soon and he might just have to try all year long. There's also the possibility that Marshall grows the hell up and acts like a man, the ideal outcome.

Nothing is forcing the Broncos hand on this. Worst case scenario they get another 10 or so really good games out of Marshall, but this time they'll be expecting him to flake out down the stretch and plan accordingly. Better than giving him up for pennies on the dollar.

TheDave
01-08-2010, 10:39 PM
That something is a 1st and a 3rd to open negotiations. If a team really wants him they could probably get the FO to take less, but I doubt they'd take much less (2nd and 3rd, or just a 1st).

Marshall's bull**** had nothing to do with this team's focus. Going 2-8 down the stretch and having both sides of the ball thoroughly exposed by Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Washington, and San Diego in order demoralized this club. The talent has no faith in the trenches, the trenches have no faith in their ability to produce. As a result no one expects to win because they know they can't win at the LOS.

Marshall will likely do the same bull**** he did this year and actually give a damn right up until he's got his stats and Pro Bowl nod locked up. If he's no longer the center of the offense though that won't come nearly as soon and he might just have to try all year long. There's also the possibility that Marshall grows the hell up and acts like a man, the ideal outcome.

Nothing is forcing the Broncos hand on this. Worst case scenario they get another 10 or so really good games out of Marshall, but this time they'll be expecting him to flake out down the stretch and plan accordingly. Better than giving him up for pennies on the dollar.

At this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you... I think we have one chance at this and that is Baltimore. Barring that were hosed with the guy.

We will find out shortly though.

ZONA
01-08-2010, 11:05 PM
1) BM and McD CAN co-exist and they did so very well throughout most of the entire season. Just because there was an injury the last week of the season and things got a little blown up doesn't mean jack. I'm sure McD is going to remember all those high fives and atta boy's he gave Marshall all year long.

2) BM is, whether you want to admit it or not, is a monster WR who has amazing hands. I don't agree with the statement he isn't comfortable with his back to the ball. I remember several awesome catches he had, even one handed, with his back to the ball, over the shoulder types of catches. We just don't have a QB who normally goes deep and when he does, many times underthrows his WR's. BM can make all the catches, he runs good routes, he overpowers ANY CB or Safety there is.

3) Clearly BM has grown up this season. Since the suspension, while still being underpaid for the 2nd year in a row, he produced and kept his mouth shut all year long. If he doesn't get hurt for this last game nobody is even talking about moving Marshall. I can't stand it when articles like this come out and say that it's a given BM wants out or that McD wants him gone. Why would McD even bench him the last game and make the comments he did if he wanted him gone? Makes no sense to drive his value down if moving him is truly what McD wants. I don't buy it. No way. McD has to, and I think he will, understand that he will have to put up with some stuff. Every team has some player issues and that's never going to change. You can't just keep getting rid of star players who might have some emotional situations that happen. You do that and you have a team full of good guys who can't play football, lol.

I think BM is staying. McD has some time to build this team but he can't afford to keep moving star talented players for picks because it takes time for those picks to turn into lagit NFL players and there is no guarantee they become stars, like BM is. It's risky as all heck to get rid of star players that produce. If you want to win, you have to put up with some of their crap. It's part of the business.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
01-09-2010, 01:01 AM
Analysis: Marshall may not be easy for Broncos to trade

Hey - the Bills signed T.O., so there's always hope. Ha!

TheReverend
01-09-2010, 01:36 AM
That's why 65 of Marshall's catches this season, with runs after the catch included, went for 10 yards or fewer. That's 64.4 percent of his receiving plays. And 30 of his catch-and-run plays went for 5 yards or fewer, including two for negative yardage. That's 29.7 percent and basically amounts to a running play.

Wait. what? i thought the Orton bashers around here base Orton's passing yards on YAC? hmmmm..

49.3% of his yards were in YAC form. That's a pretty damn high number. It's no record breaker like Matt Cassell in 2008... but high none-the-less.

TomServo
01-09-2010, 03:42 AM
all marshall did was put on a show for 2009, he behaved, no GF beatings NO in the papers, Nothing.
NO dividing the locker room like TO.
he only showed the league, he could beat an Entire Defense (Dallas Cowboys). Dumbass rookie coach thought he could show the league he could bench his best TE and best WR and win with his super system.
How did that work out?

robbieopperude
01-09-2010, 06:10 AM
I will only concede because to this point he has not been used that way, but Eddie is by far and away more talented and would dominate in that type of role.

Royal is more talented than Moss right now but not Welker. I look at the stats and it is hard to argue this. I don't associate ability and talent as the same thing.

watermock
01-09-2010, 06:17 AM
All I know is he's history, along with all of the 06 class, the best one in 25 years.