Liberty V. Security

[rastaman]

Liberty V. Security

Here's something to ponder/consider. The U.S. government has lowered the threshold for information deemed important enough to put suspicious individuals on a watch list or no-fly list, or have their visa revoked, as a result of the failed Christmas Day attack, a senior State Department officials have told CNN. For example, citizens could be put on the no-fly list or a watch list based on one credible source, instead of the previous standard of using several sources.

If this applies to US citizens – we’re not sure yet if it does or doesn’t – then if you don’t like your neighbor, just make a quick call and report something suspicious! Somehow, this reminds me creepily of Stalin, the Shah, and Pinochet.

It looks like all the Fearmongering of terrorism and terrorist since 9-11 has had unintended or intended consequences on privacy, liberty, and freedom in the U.S. This was the sole intent of the terrorist from the beginning...was it not? Thru fear alone the terrorist have made our leaders take away individual privacy, freedoms and liberty.

As Ben Franklin said, “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”

[Garcia Bronco]

I'll take Liberty. A handful of lives, even my own, doesn't matter compared to the liberty my ancestors died for.

[TailgateNut]

I'll take Liberty. A handful of lives, even my own, doesn't matter compared to the liberty my ancestors died for.


Damn. You do make a sensible post every "blue moon".:notworthy

[gyldenlove]

I'll take Liberty. A handful of lives, even my own, doesn't matter compared to the liberty my ancestors died for.

What is it, peace, justice and the American way?

Peace is never going to happen.
Justice is being undermined.
The American way is being eroded by fearmongering.

The terrorrists are winning and Washington is helping them.

[broncocalijohn]

There is no reason to give terrorist total access to a trial that we, as citizens, recieve. Right now, there is not one set of information that we will receive from the terrorist from Nigeria. He has only given up what he wants. Military trial? Should be but it isnt. We are too soft on this issue. Benjamin Franklin was speaking of our government entruding on our freedoms. Unfortunately, he never got to witnessed what radical jihads would do to us. My life has not changed one bit with the new laws. Sure, it is a pain to go through the security fun zone at the airports. Looking for bread spreaders instead of actual terrorist. Maybe they get it right once as they needed a Dutch citizen to save 300 passengers and crew. Those that died for liberty would also fight against terrorism. It is a war against us. Just like Marshall Law happens at the appropriate times, this is one of those times. This is far from Marshall Law. Seems you guys dont agree, but that is my opinion. If these laws have stopped more terrorism, then we all benefit from it, except you Garcia :)

[rastaman]

There is no reason to give terrorist total access to a trial that we, as citizens, recieve. Right now, there is not one set of information that we will receive from the terrorist from Nigeria. He has only given up what he wants. Military trial? Should be but it isnt. We are too soft on this issue. Benjamin Franklin was speaking of our government entruding on our freedoms. Unfortunately, he never got to witnessed what radical jihads would do to us. My life has not changed one bit with the new laws. Sure, it is a pain to go through the security fun zone at the airports. Looking for bread spreaders instead of actual terrorist. Maybe they get it right once as they needed a Dutch citizen to save 300 passengers and crew. Those that died for liberty would also fight against terrorism. It is a war against us. Just like Marshall Law happens at the appropriate times, this is one of those times. This is far from Marshall Law. Seems you guys dont agree, but that is my opinion. If these laws have stopped more terrorism, then we all benefit from it, except you Garcia :)


A lot of people believed they were giving up freedoms for SAFETY AND SECURITY. Those who did, do not understand that intimidating, antagonizing, bullying and dictating to other countries will never make them safer. What all that DOES is make those other countries more determined to attack and to look for ways to get past security measures. It makes the leaders of those other countries more likely to FEAR us, and more likely to retaliate.

George Bush created a precedent of taking this country to war based on whatever HE THOUGHT they MIGHT do some day, MAYBE, in the future, based on his OWN paranoid fantasies of "worst case scenarios" and blinded by the possibility of great wealth from possibly conning Iraqis into making sweetheart deals with his American Oil Buddies and make a PROFIT for himself and his VP and friends, instead of finding out what they were REALLY angry ABOUT and IF we were at fault, to find a way to get along for ALL out sakes.

Obama is ALSO going about that in the same WAY because he is keeping the same angry, fearful, paranoid neocon group that ill advised Bush and whom Bush gleefully followed because he was of the same mind set.
Since the United States is no longer bound by the laws of the Constitution or by any AGREEMENTS, treaties, we signed, what is left is just CHAOS. No one is SAFER.

[JJJ]

Liberty V. Security

Here's something to ponder/consider. The U.S. government has lowered the threshold for information deemed important enough to put suspicious individuals on a watch list or no-fly list, or have their visa revoked, as a result of the failed Christmas Day attack, a senior State Department officials have told CNN. For example, citizens could be put on the no-fly list or a watch list based on one credible source, instead of the previous standard of using several sources.

If this applies to US citizens – we’re not sure yet if it does or doesn’t – then if you don’t like your neighbor, just make a quick call and report something suspicious! Somehow, this reminds me creepily of Stalin, the Shah, and Pinochet.

It looks like all the Fearmongering of terrorism and terrorist since 9-11 has had unintended or intended consequences on privacy, liberty, and freedom in the U.S. This was the sole intent of the terrorist from the beginning...was it not? Thru fear alone the terrorist have made our leaders take away individual privacy, freedoms and liberty.

As Ben Franklin said, “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”

As usual Ben Franklin is right on the money.

Peace and security are overrated. Freedom and liberty are much more important.

This is another nice opportunity for Obaman and his guys to take more away from us.

[atomicbloke]

There is no reason to give terrorist total access to a trial that we, as citizens, recieve. Right now, there is not one set of information that we will receive from the terrorist from Nigeria. He has only given up what he wants. Military trial? Should be but it isnt. We are too soft on this issue. Benjamin Franklin was speaking of our government entruding on our freedoms. Unfortunately, he never got to witnessed what radical jihads would do to us. My life has not changed one bit with the new laws. Sure, it is a pain to go through the security fun zone at the airports. Looking for bread spreaders instead of actual terrorist. Maybe they get it right once as they needed a Dutch citizen to save 300 passengers and crew. Those that died for liberty would also fight against terrorism. It is a war against us. Just like Marshall Law happens at the appropriate times, this is one of those times. This is far from Marshall Law. Seems you guys dont agree, but that is my opinion. If these laws have stopped more terrorism, then we all benefit from it, except you Garcia :)

Are you saying we sentence terrorists without trials? If you seriously believe that, then I won't bother arguing, since your understanding is too shallow and too narrow.

And I assume you meant Martial Law, since the Australian TV show has nothing to do with this thread.

[atomicbloke]

As usual Ben Franklin is right on the money.

Peace and security are overrated. Freedom and liberty are much more important.

This is another nice opportunity for Obaman and his guys to take more away from us.

You didn't seem to have a problem for the previous 8 years.

[broncocalijohn]

Are you saying we sentence terrorists without trials? If you seriously believe that, then I won't bother arguing, since your understanding is too shallow and too narrow.

And I assume you meant Martial Law, since the Australian TV show has nothing to do with this thread.

I stated military trials. Why give these guys to lawyers right off the bat. We cannot get the needed info to stop further terrorist attacks. I do not suggest torture then use it in a court of law. Even in military court, that would not be presented. Terrorist do not get the same rights as us. They are the enemy in a war. THey belong in military court.

[mhgaffney]

Broncoca,

Should we try the CIA people who were doing the renditions, torture and assassinations in a military court,as well?

You are aware, I hope, that the vast majority of the people who ended up in Gitmo were never indicted -- let alone tried -- for a crime.

Anyone who tortured children should be subject to life imprisonment. That's just my opinion.

MHG

[Dukes]

Broncoca,

Should we try the CIA people who were doing the renditions, torture and assassinations in a military court,as well?

You are aware, I hope, that the vast majority of the people who ended up in Gitmo were never indicted -- let alone tried -- for a crime.

Anyone who tortured children should be subject to life imprisonment. That's just my opinion.

MHG

There's a good reason why they've never been to court. There's no evidence of them doing anything. How can you prove they were terrorists in Afghanistan or Iraq? Because there's no hard evidence of them commiting a crime, as you see it, then holding them without trial is the only other option. Unless releasing them is, and we've seen how that turns out when they are rehabilitated in Saudi Arabia.

Sorry, I'll trust our Soldiers and Marines who picked them up in the first place. They certainly weren't rounded up because they have beards and robes.

[JJJ]

You didn't seem to have a problem for the previous 8 years.

Of course not.

I saw an administration fighting for individual freedom and liberty of law abiding citizens home and abroad and bringing full force to bear on the non-abiding such as our terrorist friends.

[rastaman]

Of course not.

I saw an administration fighting for individual freedom and liberty of law abiding citizens home and abroad and bringing full force to bear on the non-abiding such as our terrorist friends.

Boy, now who's being Gullible? You do realize the U.S. were paying Afghan tribal leaders 5K dollar bounties to bring in anyone they deemed terrorist and those tribal leaders were rounding up their personal enemies who were not terrorist or enemy combatants just so they can collect the $5K. These folks were sent to Gitmo. And eventually tortured! Yet you wonder why we are hated! The U.S. isn't necessarily hated for our freedoms and way of life....we are hated b/c of how we conduct ourselves around the world, especially in M.E. 3rd world countries.

[TailgateNut]

Of course not.

I saw an administration fighting for individual freedom and liberty of law abiding citizens home and abroad and bringing full force to bear on the non-abiding such as our terrorist friends.


Hilarious!

....whereas I saw an "administration" (must use THAT term very lightly)/dictatorship which eroded our freedoms using a national disaster as a reason. This was very well PLAYED by them, considering that this disaster occurred due to their own incompetence.
Then they used the same disaster to line the pocketbook of their friends by waging a war based on BS info, while neglecting the economy and our own citizens when disaster struck.

Are you people really this ignorant or just toeing the party line?

[Garcia Bronco]

Here's another Ben Franklin quote that applies to all of us....just saying


"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do"

[Garcia Bronco]

And for you liberals:

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

[Garcia Bronco]

For people that advocate a straight democracy

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[Garcia Bronco]

For the liberal that believes Governemnt is the solution for the people:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

[Fedaykin]

For the liberal that believes Governemnt is the solution for the people:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."


What makes a "virtuous" people?

[Bronx33]

What makes a "virtuous" people?

–adjective 1. conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life.
2. chaste: a virtuous young person.

[mhgaffney]

There's a good reason why they've (the CIA) never been to court. There's no evidence of them doing anything. How can you prove they were terrorists in Afghanistan or Iraq? Because there's no hard evidence of them commiting a crime, as you see it, then holding them without trial is the only other option. Unless releasing them is, and we've seen how that turns out when they are rehabilitated in Saudi Arabia.

Sorry, I'll trust our Soldiers and Marines who picked them up in the first place. They certainly weren't rounded up because they have beards and robes.

There is all kinds of evidence that our CIA has engaged in wholesale terrorism. Heck, they've been at it since the agency was created. Even LBJ referred to the CIA as "murder Ink..."

Just cause YOU don't know about it -- does not mean the evidence does not exist.

Of course, a person needs to read, and pursue the truth. Which is beyond the comfort zone of the overwhelming majority of rightards and neo-liberals.

MHG

[gyldenlove]

Some Franklin wisdom for the Bu****es:

"All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones."

[gyldenlove]

Of course not.

I saw an administration fighting for individual freedom and liberty of law abiding citizens home and abroad and bringing full force to bear on the non-abiding such as our terrorist friends.

The Patriot acts say otherwise.

[Dukes]

There is all kinds of evidence that our CIA has engaged in wholesale terrorism. Heck, they've been at it since the agency was created. Even LBJ referred to the CIA as "murder Ink..."

Just cause YOU don't know about it -- does not mean the evidence does not exist.

Of course, a person needs to read, and pursue the truth. Which is beyond the comfort zone of the overwhelming majority of rightards and neo-liberals.

MHG

Sorry to get you confused. By "they" I didn't mean the CIA. I was referring to our friends who reside in Quantanamo.

[Fedaykin]

–adjective 1. conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life.
2. chaste: a virtuous young person.

If I were looking for a dictionary definition, I wouldn't have asked GB to explain. i want to know what *he* thinks Franklin meant by virtuous.

[cutthemdown]

Anyone who thinks CIA doesn't murder, sell drugs for money, pay off killers for information etc etc is crazy. Doesn't anyone watch James Bond?