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HAT
01-04-2010, 09:35 PM
I'm as disgusted as anyone over the way the season finished but I can't for the life of me see why people think it's a QB 'problem' ?

His '09 numbers are almost identical to Cutler's '08 numbers (Which earned Cutler a Pro Bowl trip....yikes!)

Jay Cutler last year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.8
Y/C: 11.8
Y/A: 7.3
%: 62,3
TD: 25
INT: 18
Team record: 8-8

Kyle Orton this year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.0
Y/C: 11.3
Y/A: 7.0
%: 62.1
TD: 21
INT: 12
Team record: 8-8

Let's look at that in reverse also....

'08 Orton with the Bears:

QBR: 79.6
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.4
%: 58.5
TD: 18
INT: 12
Team record: 9-7

'09 Cutler with the Bears:
QBR: 76.8
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.6
%: 60.5
TD: 27
INT: 26
Team record: 7-9

So how is it that people think we need to draft a QBOTF this year when they were perfectly happy with Jay in that role? They performed damn near identical in each others systems.

Dagmar
01-04-2010, 09:37 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/29w73op.png

Broncos4tw
01-04-2010, 09:39 PM
It's not the numbers. The game is about more than numbers.

HAT
01-04-2010, 09:44 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/29w73op.png

I purposely left out any comparison between their seasons this year b/c I knew the obvious response would be to say that the O-lines & skill position talent were so different.

Dagmar
01-04-2010, 09:50 PM
It's not the numbers. The game is about more than numbers.

Record? Leadership abilities? Not having beetus? QB rating?

Orton wins all of those too.

Broncos4tw
01-04-2010, 09:52 PM
Record? Leadership abilities? Not having beetus? QB rating?

Orton wins all of those too.

If you are unable to fathom what makes a franchise QB and what doesn't, I cannot help you.

DBroncos4life
01-04-2010, 09:53 PM
I was lead to believe that Cutler sucked and his stats from last year were high because we played from behind all the time. Also his Pro Bowl invite was only because of fans and it should have went to Rivers instead. Orton having numbers that are about the same as Culters would mean the same right?

Popps
01-04-2010, 09:54 PM
See, you guys don't get it.

Jay's got a rocket arm!

Dagmar
01-04-2010, 09:55 PM
If you are unable to fathom what makes a franchise QB and what doesn't, I cannot help you.

You are so clever, can I subscribe to your newsletter?

HAT
01-04-2010, 09:58 PM
It's not the numbers. The game is about more than numbers.

You're right...it's also about perception.

We all know that Jay has a stronger arm & is more mobile but the fact remains that Orton's year was statistically equivalent to Cutler's *pro bowl* 2008....With the basically the same O-line & WR's.

The game may be about more than numbers but stats are how QB's get judged and compared.

Cutler got 4,500 yards b/c all they did was throw. But the completion %, yards per completion and yards per attempt are basically the same.

Orton was to the Broncos what Cutler was last year. Cutler was to the Bears what Orton was last year.

So why is Jay perceived to be a rocket armed gunslinger and Orton is a dinking and dunking journeyman game manager?

If people want to bag on Orton for not being Manning, Brady or Brees, that's one thing. I wish Denver had a QB like that also. But this whole Orton needs to go ASAP is nonsense....

HAT
01-04-2010, 10:01 PM
If you are unable to fathom what makes a franchise QB and what doesn't, I cannot help you.

I am not calling either a 'franchise' QB.

I'm just genuinely curious why people think Orton is a downgrade from Cutler.

I don't recall anyone saying last December that Denver needs to draft a QBOTF to replace Jay. Why?

bpc
01-04-2010, 10:01 PM
Where are Cutler and Orton playing next week?

Same place. Stats don't always tell the whole story.

DEVIN AROMASHODU IS GOD INCARNATED!!!!

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/devin%20aromashodu" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/ollysj/Dolphins/RC/06rdaroma.jpg" border="0" alt="Devin Aromashodu 06 Rookie Debut Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

bpc
01-04-2010, 10:03 PM
I am not calling either a 'franchise' QB.

I'm just genuinely curious why people think Orton is a downgrade from Cutler.

I don't recall anyone saying last December that Denver needs to draft a QBOTF to replace Jay. Why?

Did you watch any of the games? Do you understand the game of football, or are you just dumb?

HAT
01-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Where are Cutler and Orton playing next week?

Same place. Stats don't always tell the whole story.



Right...No play-offs and it sucks. Not the point of this thread.

gunns
01-04-2010, 10:07 PM
I'm as disgusted as anyone over the way the season finished but I can't for the life of me see why people think it's a QB 'problem' ?

His '09 numbers are almost identical to Cutler's '08 numbers (Which earned Cutler a Pro Bowl trip....yikes!)

Jay Cutler last year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.8
Y/C: 11.8
Y/A: 7.3
%: 62,3
TD: 25
INT: 18
Team record: 8-8

Kyle Orton this year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.0
Y/C: 11.3
Y/A: 7.0
%: 62.1
TD: 21
INT: 12
Team record: 8-8

Let's look at that in reverse also....

'08 Orton with the Bears:

QBR: 79.6
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.4
%: 58.5
TD: 18
INT: 12
Team record: 9-7

'09 Cutler with the Bears:
QBR: 76.8
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.6
%: 60.5
TD: 27
INT: 26
Team record: 7-9

So how is it that people think we need to draft a QBOTF this year when they were perfectly happy with Jay in that role? They performed damn near identical in each others systems.

I don't know what this was suppose to show. I wasn't very pleased with Cutler last year. Both of their stats looked really good when they were throwing game changing INT's.

Dagmar
01-04-2010, 10:09 PM
I don't know what this was suppose to show. I wasn't very pleased with Cutler last year. Both of their stats looked really good when they were throwing game changing INT's.

Maybe you weren't one of those who STILL hate McD for trading him.

HAT
01-04-2010, 10:09 PM
Did you watch any of the games? Do you understand the game of football, or are you just dumb?

All of them, quite well & no.

Now instead of flaming...Why don't you just answer the question as it pertains to you personally.

Why do you think Orton needs to go ASAP if you believed that Denver was set for years at QB with Jay?

They're pretty much interchangeable, no? Two different sets of data show me that.

bpc
01-04-2010, 10:10 PM
BTW, Cutler, starting his 2nd full season as a starter had the entire weight of the team on his shoulders. If Denver was going to win, he would have to play great, keep us in the game or win it at the end.

Orton had the entire weight of the team put on his shoulders how many times this year? Once? Against the Chiefs? How did that go for him?

Orton is the reason we got crushed at home against the Chiefs. McD finally took the restraints off and Orton threw 3 INT's, 2 for TD's against one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Bottom line is McDaniels knew this team was in trouble if we ever had to put the ball in Orton's hand and let him wing it down field, like Jay can. Jay can throw against any defense, at any time of the game. If you're down 21, he can bring you back.

Orton is gritty. Once the veil of the play-action is gone from his game, the team he's QB'ing is going to get killed.

Jason in LA
01-04-2010, 10:16 PM
I wonder if those numbers would be any different if Orton had one of the worst defenses ever and had to come up with a score on every drive, and Cutler had a pretty good defense, where he could manage the game.

I'm just saying. ;D

Popps
01-04-2010, 10:18 PM
Bottom line is McDaniels knew this team was in trouble if we ever had to put the ball in Orton's hand and let him wing it down field, like Jay can. .

As long as you don't mind an INT thrown for every TD he puts on the board, that's just fantastic.

Cutler sucks balls, Chris. He's not coming back. You need to move on with your life.

400HZ
01-04-2010, 10:19 PM
That pretty much sums it up. Cutler was/is vastly overrated. I can't believe that some of you guys pine for him like he accomplished something with your team that Orton didn't. It was a lateral move at worst. It's just too bad for you guys that McDaniels seems to have missed on the two first rounders that he stole from the Bears.

DBroncos4life
01-04-2010, 10:22 PM
That pretty much sums it up. Cutler was/is vastly overrated. I can't believe that some of you guys pine for him like he accomplished something with your team that Orton didn't. It was a lateral move at worst. It's just too bad for you guys that McDaniels seems to have missed on the two first rounders that he stole from the Bears.

Who did we draft?

400HZ
01-04-2010, 10:29 PM
Who did we draft?

Ayers and Smith?

Oh, forgive me, he traded your pick which is a whole 4 picks lower than Chicago's. Same difference.

Jason in LA
01-04-2010, 10:30 PM
There was a thread earlier today that showed that Orton pretty much had the same stats as Tom Brady did in '06.

I'm just saying. ;D

bpc
01-04-2010, 10:30 PM
All of them, quite well & no.

Now instead of flaming...Why don't you just answer the question as it pertains to you personally.

Why do you think Orton needs to go ASAP if you believed that Denver was set for years at QB with Jay?

They're pretty much interchangeable, no? Two different sets of data show me that.

It's not a flame. You really don't know football if you're just considering stats of these two players.

The sad part is, you're cherry picking one set of stats within a team game and they all combine to tell the story. How many more possessions did this year's defense give the offense vs. last year? How many more three and out's? Time of possession?

Your stats are flawed as is your thinking. And you're wasting everybody's time having to explain the game of football to you.

You and Styguy are idiots. You don't watch the game... and if you do, you can't tell what's going on. You're lame stat readers but you miss the overall function of a player's game.

Besides, a QB is more than just throwing stats. How does he move, what's his ability to move, sense the pocket, avoid sacks? Those are all areas where Cutler is great at and Orton absolutely sucks. 12 sacks last year for this offense , vs what, 40 this year? Kyle has put your belief in this offensive line in doubt where as last year people were saying they were one of the best young units in the league. You don't think Clady missed blocks badly last year? Yes, he did. Only Cutler had great enough pocket awareness to dodge the free runner, become his own blocker and make a great throw.

18 INT's isn't great. Neither is missing the playoffs. But having the whole offense sitting on the shoulders of a QB just starting his 2nd full season in the league isn't ideal either. I think Jay handled the situation remarkably well.

He didn't have a great year this season but considering the circumstances... bad defense, poor offensive line, lack of playmaking receivers, he did the best he could.

I'm completely secure in saying that Jay is going to lead Chicago to some much better days in the future. Good luck to him.

Broncos4tw
01-04-2010, 10:31 PM
Ok, let's play the game since people want to play stupid. And again, I could give a flying crap about Cutler, he is gone. This is why Orton.. ORTON... is not the long term answer to our team. Numbers? They don't win championships. If you have 400 yards passing on any given day, there is just a good a chance you are getting your butt beat, as winning the game.

Accuracy: Orton is I would say "average" in accuracy. He is not terrible, nor is he great. It was admitted during training camp they were having issues with him not leading receivers correctly. How do you compensate for that? Shorter passes, faster passes. He has done plenty of both this season. Yet people are complaining that our receivers are unable to catch some of these bullets thrown at their fingers, at their shoelaces, or 1 foot behind them.

Mobility: Regardless if he COULD be mobile, he is not, either by choice or some other reason. Why else would he do nothing but throw the ball away, when a clear 10 yard lane is open in front of him? He rarely.. RARELY rolls out. Check out how many play action plays we had this year. It was pathetically low.

Pocket presence: Again, average at best. He has a tendency to just collapse when things go wrong around him. He does not throw the ball with people in his face. He has shrugged off rushers on a few occasions, but too few. He does not seem to realize when someone is coming blindside, ever. He seems to be lacking that mental countdown many receivers have, when that blindside rusher is out of sight. Elway was so good at this, he would duck without even looking, making it seem like he had eyes in the back of his head. Orton gets sacked, or like in one game, fumbled twice as a result.

Arm strength: Average or above average. He seems to have solid arm strength. He can get it down the field. Yet... he does not. Because if your accuracy is lacking, the only deep passes you can handle are the ones right down the center. Did you notice how our long TDs (aside from our receivers being utterly open), were down the middle? How often does he throw across the field? To the sideline 20 yards down? Note how the Shef pass was easily picked. Again, people blame a receiver that last year, had TWICE the production. Lazy.. bad attitude.. couldn't possibly be our QB eh?

Audibles: I have no idea. Either by design or his own inability, he never audibles.

Here are a few other issues:

He locks onto receivers. He has a primary, and it seems like he is locked onto that guy, and is going to throw to him, come hell or high water. Why do you think only one other receiver other than Marshall caught a TD pass as of the Eagle game? That's almost unheard of. And it's proved out. No Marshall, and... he locks onto Gaf, to the exclusion of all else. Gaf had 11 receptions by the half, while 3 other receivers had 1 each. Gaf is that amazing? No, Orton locks onto one guy. He is terrible at checkdowns. Mind you, I love Gaf, but Orton has tunnel vision when it comes to receivers.

I've watched football since before Elway took a snap for the Broncos. Over the years, I've gotten a feeling about a QB based on third downs. How confident I feel a QB will complete it. Now, with Elway, I always felt like we WERE going to make the third down. Even 3rd and 20. Because he did it, more often than not, often making amazing scrambling plays, or across the field passes, or something else, to make it happen. The second safest I felt was with Plummer, he seemed to often get third downs when we needed them. The rest I have never felt confident with, and Orton, I NEVER feel like "Oh.. we are going to get this." In fact, by the end of the season, I just automatically assumed on a third and 7 or greater, we'd be punting. Just a feeling. Because he failed miserbly so often on third down, and doesn't have that special whatever it takes, to just get it done.

Nothing about Orton makes me feel comfortable. He is a nice guy? Yea, that doesn't win championships. He says the right things? Yea, he does. Again, this does not win championships. At the end of the day, it's all about skill. Raw talent wins games. There is a reason teams this year like the Vikings, the Colts, the Saints and the Chargers look so good. A good QB can change your entire team.

Orton plays it "safe." Safe doesn't win many games at the end of the day. Yea, great, he doesn't make many interceptions. He also doesn't make many amazing 3rd down, crucial plays to extend our drives. How many 3-and-outs did we have this year? More than I could reasonably count. He can't pick the team up, put it on his shoulders, and make it happen. He has had a few moments, but these are far too few and between.

I don't want a QB that we have to build the entire team around to make functional. Perfect line, awesome running game, and so on. Of course, people seem to ignore how STACKED the line was by the middle of the season against us. Other teams are not stupid. They see our weaknesses, and they will plan for them. If they don't trust Orton to throw down the field, they can take away our screen and running game in one fell swoop. Which they did, often.

I am not suggesting we can't make other improvements. Our Oline can be a lot better. But that's no excuse for Orton. There are many QBs that will make you pay bigtime for constant blitzes. Kyle doesn't have that ability. I like the guy, I like his attitude, I like he "says the right things," but at the end of the day, I don't think he has enough upside to win playoffs and the championship game.

I'm not a hater. I'm a Bronco fan. People need to get over Cutler, and stop comparing. Take Orton for what he is, and go from there.

DBroncos4life
01-04-2010, 10:35 PM
Ok, let's play the game since people want to play stupid. And again, I could give a flying crap about Cutler, he is gone. This is why Orton.. ORTON... is not the long term answer to our team. Numbers? They don't win championships. If you have 400 yards passing on any given day, there is just a good a chance you are getting your butt beat, as winning the game.

Accuracy: Orton is I would say "average" in accuracy. He is not terrible, nor is he great. It was admitted during training camp they were having issues with him not leading receivers correctly. How do you compensate for that? Shorter passes, faster passes. He has done plenty of both this season. Yet people are complaining that our receivers are unable to catch some of these bullets thrown at their fingers, at their shoelaces, or 1 foot behind them.

Mobility: Regardless if he COULD be mobile, he is not, either by choice or some other reason. Why else would he do nothing but throw the ball away, when a clear 10 yard lane is open in front of him? He rarely.. RARELY rolls out. Check out how many play action plays we had this year. It was pathetically low.

Pocket presence: Again, average at best. He has a tendency to just collapse when things go wrong around him. He does not throw the ball with people in his face. He has shrugged off rushers on a few occasions, but too few. He does not seem to realize when someone is coming blindside, ever. He seems to be lacking that mental countdown many receivers have, when that blindside rusher is out of sight. Elway was so good at this, he would duck without even looking, making it seem like he had eyes in the back of his head. Orton gets sacked, or like in one game, fumbled twice as a result.

Arm strength: Average or above average. He seems to have solid arm strength. He can get it down the field. Yet... he does not. Because if your accuracy is lacking, the only deep passes you can handle are the ones right down the center. Did you notice how our long TDs (aside from our receivers being utterly open), were down the middle? How often does he throw across the field? To the sideline 20 yards down? Note how the Shef pass was easily picked. Again, people blame a receiver that last year, had TWICE the production. Lazy.. bad attitude.. couldn't possibly be our QB eh?

Audibles: I have no idea. Either by design or his own inability, he never audibles.

Here are a few other issues:

He locks onto receivers. He has a primary, and it seems like he is locked onto that guy, and is going to throw to him, come hell or high water. Why do you think only one other receiver other than Marshall caught a TD pass as of the Eagle game? That's almost unheard of. And it's proved out. No Marshall, and... he locks onto Gaf, to the exclusion of all else. Gaf had 11 receptions by the half, while 3 other receivers had 1 each. Gaf is that amazing? No, Orton locks onto one guy. He is terrible at checkdowns. Mind you, I love Gaf, but Orton has tunnel vision when it comes to receivers.

I've watched football since before Elway took a snap for the Broncos. Over the years, I've gotten a feeling about a QB based on third downs. How confident I feel a QB will complete it. Now, with Elway, I always felt like we WERE going to make the third down. Even 3rd and 20. Because he did it, more often than not, often making amazing scrambling plays, or across the field passes, or something else, to make it happen. The second safest I felt was with Plummer, he seemed to often get third downs when we needed them. The rest I have never felt confident with, and Orton, I NEVER feel like "Oh.. we are going to get this." In fact, by the end of the season, I just automatically assumed on a third and 7 or greater, we'd be punting. Just a feeling. Because he failed miserbly so often on third down, and doesn't have that special whatever it takes, to just get it done.

Nothing about Orton makes me feel comfortable. He is a nice guy? Yea, that doesn't win championships. He says the right things? Yea, he does. Again, this does not win championships. At the end of the day, it's all about skill. Raw talent wins games. There is a reason teams this year like the Vikings, the Colts, the Saints and the Chargers look so good. A good QB can change your entire team.

Orton plays it "safe." Safe doesn't win many games at the end of the day. Yea, great, he doesn't make many interceptions. He also doesn't make many amazing 3rd down, crucial plays to extend our drives. How many 3-and-outs did we have this year? More than I could reasonably count. He can't pick the team up, put it on his shoulders, and make it happen. He has had a few moments, but these are far too few and between.

I don't want a QB that we have to build the entire team around to make functional. Perfect line, awesome running game, and so on. Of course, people seem to ignore how STACKED the line was by the middle of the season against us. Other teams are not stupid. They see our weaknesses, and they will plan for them. If they don't trust Orton to throw down the field, they can take away our screen and running game in one fell swoop. Which they did, often.

I am not suggesting we can't make other improvements. Our Oline can be a lot better. But that's no excuse for Orton. There are many QBs that will make you pay bigtime for constant blitzes. Kyle doesn't have that ability. I like the guy, I like his attitude, I like he "says the right things," but at the end of the day, I don't think he has enough upside to win playoffs and the championship game.

I'm not a hater. I'm a Bronco fan. People need to get over Cutler, and stop comparing. Take Orton for what he is, and go from there.

spot on!!! rep

bpc
01-04-2010, 10:36 PM
As long as you don't mind an INT thrown for every TD he puts on the board, that's just fantastic.

Cutler sucks balls, Chris. He's not coming back. You need to move on with your life.

Who created this thread? Why do you still take pot shots at Shanahan?

The sad part is, it's all the haters that create these threads and proliferate them. It's just when you all get b**** smacked and made to look stupid that you say the standard: " Cutler sucks balls, Chris, he's gone... not coming back, move on."

Can't you guys come up with more creative offseason talk than pubbing how much Orton sucks and why his skills are so subpar to Cutler, that McD only trusted him to carry one game this year and he managed to throw 3 INT's to one of the worst defensive teams in the league and blew our chance (again) at the playoffs.

The truth is Kyle Orton is a backup QB, who is a stop-gap player for us. He's only playing because Chris Simms has the ability of a corpse. Had Simms done ANYTHING when given a chance this year, Kyle would have finished the season sitting the bench. Soon enough I guess.

I fully endorse Orton being on the roster next year, maybe even the starter on opening day. If we don't bring anybody in to compete with him or take the job within two years, McDaniels won't make it past his three year contract because it means we won't be in the playoffs or winning division championships and he should be fired or let go.

bpc
01-04-2010, 10:42 PM
Ok, let's play the game since people want to play stupid. And again, I could give a flying crap about Cutler, he is gone. This is why Orton.. ORTON... is not the long term answer to our team. Numbers? They don't win championships. If you have 400 yards passing on any given day, there is just a good a chance you are getting your butt beat, as winning the game.

Accuracy: Orton is I would say "average" in accuracy. He is not terrible, nor is he great. It was admitted during training camp they were having issues with him not leading receivers correctly. How do you compensate for that? Shorter passes, faster passes. He has done plenty of both this season. Yet people are complaining that our receivers are unable to catch some of these bullets thrown at their fingers, at their shoelaces, or 1 foot behind them.

Mobility: Regardless if he COULD be mobile, he is not, either by choice or some other reason. Why else would he do nothing but throw the ball away, when a clear 10 yard lane is open in front of him? He rarely.. RARELY rolls out. Check out how many play action plays we had this year. It was pathetically low.

Pocket presence: Again, average at best. He has a tendency to just collapse when things go wrong around him. He does not throw the ball with people in his face. He has shrugged off rushers on a few occasions, but too few. He does not seem to realize when someone is coming blindside, ever. He seems to be lacking that mental countdown many receivers have, when that blindside rusher is out of sight. Elway was so good at this, he would duck without even looking, making it seem like he had eyes in the back of his head. Orton gets sacked, or like in one game, fumbled twice as a result.

Arm strength: Average or above average. He seems to have solid arm strength. He can get it down the field. Yet... he does not. Because if your accuracy is lacking, the only deep passes you can handle are the ones right down the center. Did you notice how our long TDs (aside from our receivers being utterly open), were down the middle? How often does he throw across the field? To the sideline 20 yards down? Note how the Shef pass was easily picked. Again, people blame a receiver that last year, had TWICE the production. Lazy.. bad attitude.. couldn't possibly be our QB eh?

Audibles: I have no idea. Either by design or his own inability, he never audibles.

Here are a few other issues:

He locks onto receivers. He has a primary, and it seems like he is locked onto that guy, and is going to throw to him, come hell or high water. Why do you think only one other receiver other than Marshall caught a TD pass as of the Eagle game? That's almost unheard of. And it's proved out. No Marshall, and... he locks onto Gaf, to the exclusion of all else. Gaf had 11 receptions by the half, while 3 other receivers had 1 each. Gaf is that amazing? No, Orton locks onto one guy. He is terrible at checkdowns. Mind you, I love Gaf, but Orton has tunnel vision when it comes to receivers.

I've watched football since before Elway took a snap for the Broncos. Over the years, I've gotten a feeling about a QB based on third downs. How confident I feel a QB will complete it. Now, with Elway, I always felt like we WERE going to make the third down. Even 3rd and 20. Because he did it, more often than not, often making amazing scrambling plays, or across the field passes, or something else, to make it happen. The second safest I felt was with Plummer, he seemed to often get third downs when we needed them. The rest I have never felt confident with, and Orton, I NEVER feel like "Oh.. we are going to get this." In fact, by the end of the season, I just automatically assumed on a third and 7 or greater, we'd be punting. Just a feeling. Because he failed miserbly so often on third down, and doesn't have that special whatever it takes, to just get it done.

Nothing about Orton makes me feel comfortable. He is a nice guy? Yea, that doesn't win championships. He says the right things? Yea, he does. Again, this does not win championships. At the end of the day, it's all about skill. Raw talent wins games. There is a reason teams this year like the Vikings, the Colts, the Saints and the Chargers look so good. A good QB can change your entire team.

Orton plays it "safe." Safe doesn't win many games at the end of the day. Yea, great, he doesn't make many interceptions. He also doesn't make many amazing 3rd down, crucial plays to extend our drives. How many 3-and-outs did we have this year? More than I could reasonably count. He can't pick the team up, put it on his shoulders, and make it happen. He has had a few moments, but these are far too few and between.

I don't want a QB that we have to build the entire team around to make functional. Perfect line, awesome running game, and so on. Of course, people seem to ignore how STACKED the line was by the middle of the season against us. Other teams are not stupid. They see our weaknesses, and they will plan for them. If they don't trust Orton to throw down the field, they can take away our screen and running game in one fell swoop. Which they did, often.

I am not suggesting we can't make other improvements. Our Oline can be a lot better. But that's no excuse for Orton. There are many QBs that will make you pay bigtime for constant blitzes. Kyle doesn't have that ability. I like the guy, I like his attitude, I like he "says the right things," but at the end of the day, I don't think he has enough upside to win playoffs and the championship game.

I'm not a hater. I'm a Bronco fan. People need to get over Cutler, and stop comparing. Take Orton for what he is, and go from there.

Great post. Agree with most except Plummer and Orton's pocket presence.

HAT
01-04-2010, 10:44 PM
@broncos4tw:

Solid post and I agree with much of it. I don't think Orton is a long term solution either and I've posted that here plenty. He is however a very good 2-3 year stop gap solution.

There's better QB's coming down the road than what's available to draft this year and this team has far too many needs to waste a pick on QB in 2010 IMO.
Especially at pick #10.

Broncos4tw
01-04-2010, 10:50 PM
Oh, and two other things.

When it comes down to either "Our QB is not great" or "Our offensive playcalling sucks," I'm going to lean towards the former. Our coach, inexperienced as he may be as a HC, still knows offense. He was the offensive force behind Brady. Brady had a MUCH more versatile gameplan. You plan around your players, you can only do so much with what you have. I think McD did all he could with Orton, I don't see us adding much more to our playbook, as long as he is behind center.

And second, keep Orton, unless we can replace him with an ACTUAL UPGRADE. Minor upgrades are just a waste of time and energy. Get an actual franchise QB, or a draft we highly suspect might be, before relegating him to backup, or cutting him. But the sooner the better. I don't ever see us winning a championship with him as our QB, so any year he is our QB, is a year we don't win the big game.

Pontius Pirate
01-04-2010, 10:56 PM
http://www.romanticrussianwomen.com/images/denver_bronco_jake_plummer.jpg

~Crash~
01-04-2010, 11:04 PM
I am not calling either a 'franchise' QB.

I'm just genuinely curious why people think Orton is a downgrade from Cutler.

I don't recall anyone saying last December that Denver needs to draft a QBOTF to replace Jay. Why?

his feet alone kill us but I do like Orton ...

OCBronco
01-04-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm not sold either way. I want to see another season in the system before I pass judgment.

I have a feeling that this will work out similar to how things worked out with the Pats and Bledsoe (in fact, come to think of it, Orton kind of reminds of Bledsoe, sometimes). We will keep drafting and developing young passers which fit the Patriots mold, and see what sticks. Strange as it sounds, QB in this system is pretty similar to how the RB was in our old ZBS.

Popps
01-04-2010, 11:29 PM
He locks onto receivers. He has a primary, and it seems like he is locked onto that guy, and is going to throw to him, come hell or high water. .

I thought most of your overview was off-target, and most of it in direct contrast to what most former pro QBs have said about him. But this part was particularly off-base.

He goes through his progressions on every play. He threw to Marshall the most because Marshall is open the most, and when he feels like it, can fight for the ball better than a little guy like Royal or Stokley.

It's all about having time. Watch the pass he threw into the endzone that drew us the PI call. He must have looked off 3 receivers before throwing that ball.

If he has time, he'll go through his reads. The idea that he won't is a myth.

He's got issues, but that's not one of them.

strafen
01-04-2010, 11:35 PM
It's not the numbers. The game is about more than numbers.Exactly.
Orton just doesn't have it.
He's a guy who doesn't play inspired.
You have to have a guy at QB that is able to will his team to victory. Orton is just not that guy.

I'll tell you this much, though. I don't care what McDaniels does in the off-season, in the draft, in the FA signing period, who gets caught, and who doesn't, if he decides to go with Orton as our QB next season, that will be all I need to know that our season no matter what, will be as bad as this season.
The results will still be the same.
You've gotta think about stepping up to the next level to be real contenders for the SB. Orton is not a QB that will EVER take this team to the SB, let alone win it...

strafen
01-04-2010, 11:43 PM
I thought most of your overview was off-target, and most of it in direct contrast to what most former pro QBs have said about him. But this part was particularly off-base.

He goes through his progressions on every play. He threw to Marshall the most because Marshall is open the most, and when he feels like it, can fight for the ball better than a little guy like Royal or Stokley.

It's all about having time. Watch the pass he threw into the endzone that drew us the PI call. He must have looked off 3 receivers before throwing that ball.

If he has time, he'll go through his reads. The idea that he won't is a myth.

He's got issues, but that's not one of them.Why is it that you never take stats into consideration.
Marshall had the most catches at a rate of 2:1 to the next guy on the team.
Gaffney had 54 catches this season, 14 of those came in last Sunday against the chiefs.
Orton can go thru progressions all he wants, at the end of the day, he will still be locked onto one receiver. He missed a lot of wide open receivers downfield in favor of one open 3 yard off the LOS.

Gaffney was his primary receiver in the last game.
Gaffney caught 14 passes, the next closest guy in catches was Stokley with 5.
And when KC started to double team Gaffney, that's when Orton started to crap out by throwing interceptions.

Numbers don't lie. Take the time to check them out before you dispute facts with your own opinions...

Hulamau
01-04-2010, 11:46 PM
If you are unable to fathom what makes a franchise QB and what doesn't, I cannot help you.

Well Elway .... the very dictionary definition of a franchise QB was awfully high on Orton yesterday when Vic specifically opened the door to him to acknowledge Kyle might not be the guy for Denver.

A few say he supported some other QBs here too but he was never that vocally behind Jake of Griese. He liked Griese and sympathized with having to follow him but I never heard him talk in detail as he did about Kyle yesterday being good for the Broncos and the kind of QB we need who can do well here with a lite more help from a consistent D and a run game. He said some good things about Cutlers arm but was never really warm about the guy either.

The total fail in run blocking for our Oline the last half of the year greatly limited what Orton could do down field as well, with safeties able to sit back in coverage not having to man-up on the line to stop the run.

And even against the Chiefs, only one of those three INT's was really all on him. The first one was short and simply a bad pass on Orton that cost us. The second pick 6 was absolutely just one of those things where Johnson was completely out of view behind several players and Orton had a clear line to Graham when Derrick jumped out of a crouch and snagged it for a easy 6.

Elway also empathized with that second INT saying that happened to him plenty of times and there is no way to avoid some of those when the defense just makes a good play and you cant see the guy.

The last INT was a desperation Hail Mary into the end zone trying to give Gaffney a chance to win the jump ball. Ideally perhaps he could have put it a little deeper but it was a decent pass and under the circumstance s was just trying to squeeze some blood out of a turnip by that point. That was a pass normally designed for Marshall .. not unlike the one Brandon flubbed in Philly when he failed to jump and really fight for the ball.

But Orton was also very accurate too on a lot of those touch passes and a few lasers as well including those two nice throws to Lloyd with a guy draped all over him.

This loss was on the Defense, giving up 315 on the ground will get any QB beat .. a point Elway also made when acknowledging he couldn't have come back with this run defense laying that big an egg either.

Orton was even more mobile against the Chiefs as well, though no one is going to mistake him for Elway rolling out of the pocket. At least he broke out of a number of otherwise sure sacks and made an effort to run.

He made one other poor decision when he started to run for what might have been a first and tried to dump it off sideways at the last second and missed the receiver instead of running it. But he did give his all the whole game including diving head first for the 8 yard game on third down.

I'm absolutely willing to give him another year to see how he improves in the second year in this system and with no doubt a stouter Oline in front of him and a more solid D line as well as the number one and two priority this offseason.

Orton may or may not be able to make it as a solid winning QB in this league. He isn't an elite QB and may never will be, but this was really only his third full year starting and in an all new complex system and team.

Get used to it, Orton isn't going anywhere for a while. Unless you have a bright alternative that is available in the next couple years while we also try to develop a young guy behind him?

hookemhess
01-04-2010, 11:46 PM
I'd rather not have either Orton or Cutler. As far as likability, I prefer Orton miles ahead of Cutler. From a leadership, character standpoint, he is leaps and bounds better. As a player, he seems a little more efficient. Doesn't really matter. After an entire season of eval, I just like my chances at a Super Bowl run better with prolly 14 other QBs in the league. I say we draft a QB to come in and compete with Kyle.

bpc
01-05-2010, 12:29 AM
Well Elway .... the very dictionary definition of a franchise QB was awfully high on Orton yesterday when Vic specifically opened the door to him to acknowledge Kyle might not be the guy for Denver.

A few say he supported some other QBs here too but he was never that vocally behind Jake of Griese. He liked Griese and sympathized with having to follow him but I never heard him talk in detail as he did about Kyle yesterday being good for the Broncos and the kind of QB we need who can do well here with a lite more help from a consistent D and a run game. He said some good things about Cutlers arm but was never really warm about the guy either.

The total fail in run blocking for our Oline the last half of the year greatly limited what Orton could do down field as well, with safeties able to sit back in coverage not having to man-up on the line to stop the run.

And even against the Chiefs, only one of those three INT's was really all on him. The first one was short and simply a bad pass on Orton that cost us. The second pick 6 was absolutely just one of those things where Johnson was completely out of view behind several players and Orton had a clear line to Graham when Derrick jumped out of a crouch and snagged it for a easy 6.

Elway also empathized with that second INT saying that happened to him plenty of times and there is no way to avoid some of those when the defense just makes a good play and you cant see the guy.

The last INT was a desperation Hail Mary into the end zone trying to give Gaffney a chance to win the jump ball. Ideally perhaps he could have put it a little deeper but it was a decent pass and under the circumstance s was just trying to squeeze some blood out of a turnip by that point. That was a pass normally designed for Marshall .. not unlike the one Brandon flubbed in Philly when he failed to jump and really fight for the ball.

But Orton was also very accurate too on a lot of those touch passes and a few lasers as well including those two nice throws to Lloyd with a guy draped all over him.

This loss was on the Defense, giving up 315 on the ground will get any QB beat .. a point Elway also made when acknowledging he couldn't have come back with this run defense laying that big an egg either.

Orton was even more mobile against the Chiefs as well, though no one is going to mistake him for Elway rolling out of the pocket. At least he broke out of a number of otherwise sure sacks and made an effort to run.

He made one other poor decision when he started to run for what might have been a first and tried to dump it off sideways at the last second and missed the receiver instead of running it. But he did give his all the whole game including diving head first for the 8 yard game on third down.

I'm absolutely willing to give him another year to see how he improves in the second year in this system and with no doubt a stouter Oline in front of him and a more solid D line as well as the number one and two priority this offseason.

Orton may or may not be able to make it as a solid winning QB in this league. He isn't an elite QB and may never will be, but this was really only his third full year starting and in an all new complex system and team.

Get used to it, Orton isn't going anywhere for a while. Unless you have a bright alternative that is available in the next couple years while we also try to develop a young guy behind him?

You should point out that Elway is a Bronco fan first. Talent evaluator 2nd. He's gone on the record standing behind every QB since him. Bubby, Brian, Jake, Jay, and now Orton.

Sorry, can't put much stock in Elway's thought here.

bpc
01-05-2010, 12:32 AM
Why is it that you never take stats into consideration.
Marshall had the most catches at a rate of 2:1 to the next guy on the team.
Gaffney had 54 catches this season, 14 of those came in last Sunday against the chiefs.
Orton can go thru progressions all he wants, at the end of the day, he will still be locked onto one receiver. He missed a lot of wide open receivers downfield in favor of one open 3 yard off the LOS.

Gaffney was his primary receiver in the last game.
Gaffney caught 14 passes, the next closest guy in catches was Stokley with 5.
And when KC started to double team Gaffney, that's when Orton started to crap out by throwing interceptions.

Numbers don't lie. Take the time to check them out before you dispute facts with your own opinions...

Why would he do that? That wouldn't protect his agenda or deflect the criticism away from the guys he's protected all along. He's gone up the trail too far to turn back now. Admitting Orton stinks and will never win a playoff game would only make him look more foolish. It won't be happening.

Broncos4tw
01-05-2010, 12:41 AM
I thought most of your overview was off-target, and most of it in direct contrast to what most former pro QBs have said about him. But this part was particularly off-base.

Gee, you disagreed with something negative about Orton, what a stunner. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass you know, it's from watching the dude play for the entire season. He is what he is. I'm sorry you cannot get past your mancrush to see it.

He absolutely locks onto one receiver. Do you really think that our other receivers started to suddenly suck? They forgot how to run routes? How to catch the ball? Under Cutler, whom I realize you hate, they had DOUBLE the production that they did under Orton. And you are blaming all of them? Our line is nearly identical! But clearly, it's everyone BUT the QB?

I'm not going to waste my time dredging through the stats, but we have to be the most unbalanced team in the league in receiving yards per player, and receiving TDs.

Don't you watch the guy throw? Honestly.. you don't, do you. I never see him look anywhere but one direction. Take a QB with some talent. I've seen many look one receiver.. stare them down even.. and then turn and throw another direction. I've never seen Orton do this, ever.

How many pump-fakes has Orton done all season? One? Quality skill there, yup.

He locks onto one guy. He doesn't check down. He is predictable. There is a reason they started stacking the line against us.

Why can't you admit Orton isn't the second coming? Yea.. 'cause you know it all, don't you. So many like you.. it's sad. I was happy to admit McD, even with his immaturity and lack of HC skills, could probably run this team for years. I still think so, if someone reigns him in a bit, and helps him handle personnel issues. But Orton and McD lovers can't say a negative thing about either.

I've NEVER heard you say ONE negative thing about Orton. Why don't you try it? See if you can fess up a bit. Unless you think he is perfect of course, with no faults or weaknesses.

strafen
01-05-2010, 12:44 AM
Why would he do that? That wouldn't protect his agenda or deflect the criticism away from the guys he's protected all along. He's gone up the trail too far to turn back now. Admitting Orton stinks and will never win a playoff game would only make him look more foolish. It won't be happening.

Haha!!!
I thought I'd try anyway :strong:

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 04:36 AM
Orton had the entire weight of the team put on his shoulders how many times this year? Once? Against the Chiefs? How did that go for him?

Couldn't be more wrong.

8 losses and in only 1 of those did the defense hold the opposition under 27 pts. And no semblance of a running game in any. Yup, no pressure there or anything.

gunns
01-05-2010, 06:33 AM
Maybe you weren't one of those who STILL hate McD for trading him.

He did title the thread "Orton bashers" and the first of his OP made me to believe these stats would show me it's not a QB problem. While there is very, very rarely one guy to blame for a team collapse, some players "consistent" play causes a consistent problem. While Cutler could stretch the field with some of his throws, that stretch often came back to slap us in the face with game changing INT's. Orton's play leaves us in the same predictament, for other reasons. Neither is the answer. And no, I never did hate McD for trading him, I also didn't think Jay was the total bad guy in the situation, but that's another story and in the past. Orton will probably stay as our starter next year for awhile. I have to say that does not make me happy, but it's probably a reality. Hopefully it's short term.

barryr
01-05-2010, 06:38 AM
What is comical is the Cutler fans will say that in Cutler's last year as a Bronco, his stats could have been better if had a running game. But then turn around and bash Orton, but are also teh type to keep saying how bad Moreno is, so then with that thinking, how did Orton have such a great running game? His stats couldn't have been better without a better running game too? Can't have it both ways.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-05-2010, 06:43 AM
You wanna know what's funny about Orton?

He threw for 431 yards but at no point did I fear him.

jhns
01-05-2010, 07:12 AM
Cutler also threw for 4550 yards. Cutler was in his 3rd year while Orton is in his 5th. Cutler had to play with no defense or special teams, which forced him to try carrying the team. Orton didn't have that problem. Cutler had the 32nd ranked starting field position, Orton didn't. Cutlers defense was one off of a record for fewest turnovers ever. Ortons defense gave him tons of chances off turnovers. Cutler actually threw the ball. A large chunk of Ortons numbers are deflected passes being caught and screens being taken a long ways.

Anyways, a great point was already made. Didn't you all cry about Cutlers production for the past year now? You now think those are good numbers? I'm not sure I get it.

Just watch Orton play. He makes it harder on everyone around him. Every young player on this offense has regressed from last year other than Marshall. That is because they have to carry the burden of Orton. Good players elevate the play of those around them. If we had a good QB, we give up far fewer sacks and guys like Royal would still look like receivers. Even the coach doesn't trust him. Look at the game plans. This past game was the first time it was really opened up and we got 14 points for the other team from Orton.

BroncoBuff
01-05-2010, 07:19 AM
Who created this thread? Why do you still take pot shots at Shanahan?

The sad part is, it's all the haters that create these threads and proliferate them. It's just when you all get b**** smacked and made to look stupid that you say the standard: " Cutler sucks balls, Chris, he's gone... not coming back, move on."
Definitely ... he posts more about Cutler than anyone on the board, maybe any two guys here, so "getting on with life" would best be a suggestion self-directed.

You're right, too, that when he's cornered, he drops the "Cutler sucks" card, and immediately gets all personal-insult-y to whatever low-down varmint dare get in his way!


http://www.yosemite-sam.net/Sam/Sam-Side.jpg

bpc
01-05-2010, 07:21 AM
Couldn't be more wrong.

8 losses and in only 1 of those did the defense hold the opposition under 27 pts. And no semblance of a running game in any. Yup, no pressure there or anything.

Bubble screens and one read pass plays are easy. That's about as simple as a high school offense.

Orton also had his starting HB's playing all season. Sure, maybe they were inherently average but he had his guys back there.

Cutler was down to his 6th or 7th HB. Cory Boyd was getting playing time for christsakes.

Could it be that there was no running game for Orton because defenses don't respect his ability to throw the ball, therefore they were run blitzing and clogging the lanes?

And the reason Denver's running game was more productive with their 7th HB is because defenses were set up to play the pass and allowed Denver to let their backup HB's room to run.

WolfpackGuy
01-05-2010, 07:22 AM
Orton is what he is, a backup.

The team is not strong enough to hide him.

jhns
01-05-2010, 07:29 AM
Couldn't be more wrong.

8 losses and in only 1 of those did the defense hold the opposition under 27 pts. And no semblance of a running game in any. Yup, no pressure there or anything.

Then you actually look deeper and see a lot of those points came when the offense gave up turnovers and went 3 and out contsantly through the games. We have had multiple great defensive performances ruined by the offense that couldn't move the ball. I get that you see points given up, but the three phases of the game can affect each other. This forum doesn't seem to understand this.

2KBack
01-05-2010, 07:38 AM
Gee, you disagreed with something negative about Orton, what a stunner. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass you know, it's from watching the dude play for the entire season. He is what he is. I'm sorry you cannot get past your mancrush to see it.

He absolutely locks onto one receiver. Do you really think that our other receivers started to suddenly suck? They forgot how to run routes? How to catch the ball? Under Cutler, whom I realize you hate, they had DOUBLE the production that they did under Orton. And you are blaming all of them? Our line is nearly identical! But clearly, it's everyone BUT the QB?

I'm not going to waste my time dredging through the stats, but we have to be the most unbalanced team in the league in receiving yards per player, and receiving TDs.

Don't you watch the guy throw? Honestly.. you don't, do you. I never see him look anywhere but one direction. Take a QB with some talent. I've seen many look one receiver.. stare them down even.. and then turn and throw another direction. I've never seen Orton do this, ever.

How many pump-fakes has Orton done all season? One? Quality skill there, yup.

He locks onto one guy. He doesn't check down. He is predictable. There is a reason they started stacking the line against us.

Why can't you admit Orton isn't the second coming? Yea.. 'cause you know it all, don't you. So many like you.. it's sad. I was happy to admit McD, even with his immaturity and lack of HC skills, could probably run this team for years. I still think so, if someone reigns him in a bit, and helps him handle personnel issues. But Orton and McD lovers can't say a negative thing about either.

I've NEVER heard you say ONE negative thing about Orton. Why don't you try it? See if you can fess up a bit. Unless you think he is perfect of course, with no faults or weaknesses.

and you disagree with anything positive, imagine that. Works both ways. I also disagree with just about every point of your evaluation. but at least you aren't a dick about it like so many others, so carry on

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 07:40 AM
Then you actually look deeper and see a lot of those points came when the offense gave up turnovers and went 3 and out contsantly through the games.

Simply not true. Remove the pick 6s and it doesn't affect my stat up above one bit, sorry.

And show me all those short drives please. I am challenging you. I seem to recall every score by Indy, Philly, Oakland and KC being the result of long fields, not turnovers resulting in short fields to defend.

3 and outs? Then why was the defense for the most part giving up 90% of the scoring in the first half? They buckled down in the 2nd half and performed better than in the first half pretty much every game. That effectively shoots down the "tired defense" theory.

We have had multiple great defensive performances ruined by the offense that couldn't move the ball. I get that you see points given up, but the three phases of the game can affect each other. This forum doesn't seem to understand this.

Show me a great defensive performance that lasted more than 30 minutes in any of their losses.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 07:44 AM
Bubble screens and one read pass plays are easy. That's about as simple as a high school offense.

Stay on point. In the last two months, he was under pressure to score because the defense kept digging themselves in deep holes in the first half.

Orton also had his starting HB's playing all season. Sure, maybe they were inherently average but he had his guys back there.

Cutler was down to his 6th or 7th HB. Cory Boyd was getting playing time for christsakes.

Doesn't matter what # RB they were down to last year. The OLine was opening holes and making them ALL successful. Are you really questioning which running game was taking the heat off the QB better?

Could it be that there was no running game for Orton because defenses don't respect his ability to throw the ball, therefore they were run blitzing and clogging the lanes?

Again, stay on point. Regardless of why they had no running game this year, there was a lot of pressure on Orton to perform because there wasn't one backing him up.

2KBack
01-05-2010, 07:48 AM
Gee, you disagreed with something negative about Orton, what a stunner. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass you know, it's from watching the dude play for the entire season. He is what he is. I'm sorry you cannot get past your mancrush to see it.

He absolutely locks onto one receiver. Do you really think that our other receivers started to suddenly suck? They forgot how to run routes? How to catch the ball? Under Cutler, whom I realize you hate, they had DOUBLE the production that they did under Orton. And you are blaming all of them? Our line is nearly identical! But clearly, it's everyone BUT the QB?

I'm not going to waste my time dredging through the stats, but we have to be the most unbalanced team in the league in receiving yards per player, and receiving TDs.

Don't you watch the guy throw? Honestly.. you don't, do you. I never see him look anywhere but one direction. Take a QB with some talent. I've seen many look one receiver.. stare them down even.. and then turn and throw another direction. I've never seen Orton do this, ever.

How many pump-fakes has Orton done all season? One? Quality skill there, yup.

He locks onto one guy. He doesn't check down. He is predictable. There is a reason they started stacking the line against us.

Why can't you admit Orton isn't the second coming? Yea.. 'cause you know it all, don't you. So many like you.. it's sad. I was happy to admit McD, even with his immaturity and lack of HC skills, could probably run this team for years. I still think so, if someone reigns him in a bit, and helps him handle personnel issues. But Orton and McD lovers can't say a negative thing about either.

I've NEVER heard you say ONE negative thing about Orton. Why don't you try it? See if you can fess up a bit. Unless you think he is perfect of course, with no faults or weaknesses.

I do find it funny that people will create habits out of thin air though. Like the checkdown thing, Orton was considered the check down king coming into denver, having a reputation of not testing his WR's in favor of throwing to the check down. This would be why Forte was the 2nd leading reciever when Orton was with the Bears. Of course now he doesn't go through progressions...because we have to blame the QB.

It's always the QB right? Someone who knows so much about football by watching it should know right?

Pump faking is another humorous complaint. One thing that Orton does have that might be an issue is a slow release, yet you want to compound that by pump faking...with the pass protection issues that we had this season? This tells me that you aren't doing much evaluating beyond yelling at Orton for the rest of the teams problems.

jhns
01-05-2010, 07:50 AM
Simply not true. Remove the pick 6s and it doesn't affect my stat up above one bit, sorry.

And show me all those short drives please. I am challenging you. I seem to recall every score by Indy, Philly, Oakland and KC being the result of long fields, not turnovers resulting in short fields to defend.

3 and outs? Then why was the defense for the most part giving up 90% of the scoring in the first half? They buckled down in the 2nd half and performed better than in the first half pretty much every game. That effectively shoots down the "tired defense" theory.



Show me a great defensive performance that lasted more than 30 minutes in any of their losses.

How does the defense giving up scores in the first half take away from what I said? The offense can't go 3 and out, giving up great field position to the other team, in the first half?

I will show you exactly what I'm saying. Give me some time.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 07:53 AM
How does the defense giving up scores in the first half take away from what I said?

If a team, like Indy, scores on their first drive, then there's simply no way you can blame the offense for anything they did while waiting on the sidelines to start the game.

The offense can't go 3 and out, giving up great field position to the other team, in the first half?

Sure they can. But that's not what happened here. The ONLY short scoring drives by the opposition this year that I can remember were the result of 15 yard Berger punts. You can't exactly blame the offense for that.

jhns
01-05-2010, 08:14 AM
If a team, like Indy, scores on their first drive, then there's simply no way you can blame the offense for anything they did while waiting on the sidelines to start the game.



Sure they can. But that's not what happened here. The ONLY short scoring drives by the opposition this year that I can remember were the result of 15 yard Berger punts. You can't exactly blame the offense for that.

Well, it didn't take me long. I looked at our first two losses and neither fit your stat.

In the baltimore game, our first half offensive drives were as follows:

Hopefully this lines up, I'm on my phone and doing my best. I promise.

Plays Yards Result
3 -1 Punt
3 3 Punt
4 3 Fumble
4 17 Punt
4 16 Punt
10 41 Punt

End of half. On the fumble, we gave up a FG without letting them drive anywhere. We then gave up a kick return for a TD. This is not the defenses fault. You can clearly see why our defense wore down that game. They were on the field the entire time.

I didn't really break down anyone else since the first one showed what I was saying. Just seeing the scoring total of Pitt shows that they had a 25 yard TD drive after an interception. Maybe I will break some more down later.

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 08:33 AM
Did you watch any of the games? Do you understand the game of football, or are you just dumb?

You should ask yourself the same questions.

Your answers would be 1.Sometimes 2.No 3.Yes

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 08:35 AM
BTW, Cutler, starting his 2nd full season as a starter had the entire weight of the team on his shoulders. If Denver was going to win, he would have to play great, keep us in the game or win it at the end.

Orton had the entire weight of the team put on his shoulders how many times this year? Once? Against the Chiefs? How did that go for him?

Orton is the reason we got crushed at home against the Chiefs. McD finally took the restraints off and Orton threw 3 INT's, 2 for TD's against one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Bottom line is McDaniels knew this team was in trouble if we ever had to put the ball in Orton's hand and let him wing it down field, like Jay can. Jay can throw against any defense, at any time of the game. If you're down 21, he can bring you back.

Orton is gritty. Once the veil of the play-action is gone from his game, the team he's QB'ing is going to get killed.

The bolded shows you either haven't watched all the games, or are totally clueless.

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 08:39 AM
Well Elway .... the very dictionary definition of a franchise QB was awfully high on Orton yesterday when Vic specifically opened the door to him to acknowledge Kyle might not be the guy for Denver.

A few say he supported some other QBs here too but he was never that vocally behind Jake of Griese. He liked Griese and sympathized with having to follow him but I never heard him talk in detail as he did about Kyle yesterday being good for the Broncos and the kind of QB we need who can do well here with a lite more help from a consistent D and a run game. He said some good things about Cutlers arm but was never really warm about the guy either.

The total fail in run blocking for our Oline the last half of the year greatly limited what Orton could do down field as well, with safeties able to sit back in coverage not having to man-up on the line to stop the run.

And even against the Chiefs, only one of those three INT's was really all on him. The first one was short and simply a bad pass on Orton that cost us. The second pick 6 was absolutely just one of those things where Johnson was completely out of view behind several players and Orton had a clear line to Graham when Derrick jumped out of a crouch and snagged it for a easy 6.

Elway also empathized with that second INT saying that happened to him plenty of times and there is no way to avoid some of those when the defense just makes a good play and you cant see the guy.

The last INT was a desperation Hail Mary into the end zone trying to give Gaffney a chance to win the jump ball. Ideally perhaps he could have put it a little deeper but it was a decent pass and under the circumstance s was just trying to squeeze some blood out of a turnip by that point. That was a pass normally designed for Marshall .. not unlike the one Brandon flubbed in Philly when he failed to jump and really fight for the ball.

But Orton was also very accurate too on a lot of those touch passes and a few lasers as well including those two nice throws to Lloyd with a guy draped all over him.

This loss was on the Defense, giving up 315 on the ground will get any QB beat .. a point Elway also made when acknowledging he couldn't have come back with this run defense laying that big an egg either.

Orton was even more mobile against the Chiefs as well, though no one is going to mistake him for Elway rolling out of the pocket. At least he broke out of a number of otherwise sure sacks and made an effort to run.

He made one other poor decision when he started to run for what might have been a first and tried to dump it off sideways at the last second and missed the receiver instead of running it. But he did give his all the whole game including diving head first for the 8 yard game on third down.

I'm absolutely willing to give him another year to see how he improves in the second year in this system and with no doubt a stouter Oline in front of him and a more solid D line as well as the number one and two priority this offseason.

Orton may or may not be able to make it as a solid winning QB in this league. He isn't an elite QB and may never will be, but this was really only his third full year starting and in an all new complex system and team.

Get used to it, Orton isn't going anywhere for a while. Unless you have a bright alternative that is available in the next couple years while we also try to develop a young guy behind him?

Great post.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2010, 08:52 AM
Orton is a decent starter, not the ball and chain some people try to make him out to be. Some people are gonna complain about him no matter what, I think.

I'd like to see him improve on some things like moving away from pressure, delivering the ball on time.

Maybe with some more coaching he can improve some and get the TD's up, convert the 3d downs better.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-05-2010, 08:54 AM
Cutler had the 32nd ranked starting field position, Orton didn't. Cutlers defense was one off of a record for fewest turnovers ever. Ortons defense gave him tons of chances off turnovers.

Don't tell any of this to Popps. He insists there was no "massive decline."

jhns
01-05-2010, 09:00 AM
You want to know the real reason people don't think Orton is good? He is a loser as a Bronco. He is 8-8 and that means he is a loser. He didn't get it done. This is what I was told about Cutler forever and you all have convinced me. The game of football is all won and lost by the QB. Orton didn't win.

Of course, now is the time you all try spinning that it is a team sport. I tried saying that since Cutler left and got all kinds of cute responses. None of them going away from the one man team stance. Now you all want to blame everything around the QB for the QB looking like crap. Do any of you even try making sense?

bpc
01-05-2010, 09:05 AM
Stay on point. In the last two months, he was under pressure to score because the defense kept digging themselves in deep holes in the first half.



Doesn't matter what # RB they were down to last year. The OLine was opening holes and making them ALL successful. Are you really questioning which running game was taking the heat off the QB better?



Again, stay on point. Regardless of why they had no running game this year, there was a lot of pressure on Orton to perform because there wasn't one backing him up.

1st comment: The offense never changed until the last game. There was never a sense of urgency with Orton's game until the last game against KC. And he failed. Good call though. 3 INT's, 2 TD's from those. Fail.

2nd comment: Obviously, you don't understand defense. You see, when a defense is on it's heels and dropping 7 or 8 guys back into coverage, you have 5, sometimes 6 blockers taking out 3 or 4 defensive linemen within 4 to 5 yds of the line of scrimmage. Combine that with a much better running scheme under Mike Shanahan and you have better results. Simple football fundamentals that are obviously missing you.

Let me break it down further: NOBODY FEARED TATUM BELL RUNNING THE ROCK. The guy just walked in the door from working at the mall. Everybody was trying to stop Jay.

Fast forward to this year, nobody cared about Orton's arm. His passing skills are bunk and he's mostly innaccurate after 10 yds and longer. They played to stop the run. They could have cared less about playing deep because he can't throw those passes.

3rd Comment: McD stuck to the same script he used all year. Don't expect Orton to do much, bubble screen early and often to get into 3rd and short situations, and attempt to run the ball to offset that as well.

If you consider Orton taking snaps from under center, and touching the ball 70 times a game as pressure, then yes... I guess he had that monumental task on his plate.

Orton is average and not somebody who will lead us to any type of championship.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:08 AM
Orton supporters have pointed to both his career win/loss record AND his individual stats to support their argument.

Orton bashers have somehow tried to discredit both arguments by saying on the one hand that wins and losses are a team stat and on the other, that his individual stats don't matter and are misleading because the guys around him made those stats possible.

All they can come up with to bash the guy are intangible things you can't measure. Yet, if anything, that's where Orton actually shines.

bpc
01-05-2010, 09:09 AM
The bolded shows you either haven't watched all the games, or are totally clueless.

So i'm wondering, what is your assessment of Kyle Orton? Break down his abilities. Obviously, you watch every game, I don't, what does he bring to the table? I'd like a full break down of his skills with your brilliant analysis.

I'd also like to know how long until you predict he wins us a division championship and a super bowl.

Please, fill free to put your thoughts in written form so they can be reposted later as proof to your brilliance.

jhns
01-05-2010, 09:12 AM
Orton supporters have pointed to both his career win/loss record AND his individual stats to support their argument.

Orton bashers have somehow tried to discredit both arguments by saying on the one hand that wins and losses are a team stat and on the other, that his individual stats don't matter and are misleading because the guys around him made those stats possible.

All they can come up with to bash the guy are intangible things you can't measure. Yet, if anything, that's where Orton actually shines.

He has never led a productive offense and he just completed his 5th year. Are you serious?

bpc
01-05-2010, 09:19 AM
Orton supporters have pointed to both his career win/loss record AND his individual stats to support their argument.Orton bashers have somehow tried to discredit both arguments by saying on the one hand that wins and losses are a team stat and on the other, that his individual stats don't matter and are misleading because the guys around him made those stats possible.

All they can come up with to bash the guy are intangible things you can't measure. Yet, if anything, that's where Orton actually shines.

His W/L record is bloated. It mainly comes from his 2005 season when the Bears went 10-5 when he was the QB.

That was also the year that their offense scored a paltry 260 pts, but the Bears defense held the opposition to single digit scores in 8 out of 16 games and only gave up 12 ppg which was 1st in the NFL.

During that dream season Orton was excellent throwing the ball. He completed 51.6% of his passes, for 1800 yds while throwing 9 TD's, and 13 INT's.

YEP. He was EXCELLENT.

Idiot take. Again. Take out that lucky season where the defense carried the Bears team to the playoffs and his record is about .500.

Take out the bubble screen option from his pass plays this year and he once again finishes below 60% accuracy for the 4th or 5th time in his career.

You guys really are blind aren't you? Why do you keep blowing this guy? He isn't that good. He's merely servicable in the time being because our alternative is Chris Simms.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:20 AM
1st comment: The offense never changed until the last game. There was never a sense of urgency with Orton's game until the last game against KC. And he failed. Good call though. 3 INT's, 2 TD's from those. Fail.

Actually, you fail. They played many different styles of offense this year with different levels of urgency.

I saw plenty of urgency in Indy and Philly in particular.

Fail.

2nd comment: Obviously, you don't understand defense. You see, when a defense is on it's heels and dropping 7 or 8 guys back into coverage, you have 5, sometimes 6 blockers taking out 3 or 4 defensive linemen within 4 to 5 yds of the line of scrimmage. Combine that with a much better running scheme under Mike Shanahan and you have better results. Simple football fundamentals that are obviously missing you.

It's not that I don't understand defense. It's that YOU don't understand my argument. I obviously understand the difference between running against 8 in the box vs. 5 and 6. It clearly makes a difference. I just disagree with how much we actually faced 5 and 6 in the box last year vs this year. You seem to think that's all we faced last year. I disagree.

Let me break it down further: NOBODY FEARED TATUM BELL RUNNING THE ROCK. The guy just walked in the door from working at the mall. Everybody was trying to stop Jay.

Nobody feared him, yet he was more effective than anything we've seen this year, outside of one game. Whether people feared him or not, he took pressure off the passing game and Cutler. That's the whole point. Outside of probably one game, the running game didn't consistently take the pressure off of Orton.

Fast forward to this year, nobody cared about Orton's arm. His passing skills are bunk and he's mostly innaccurate after 10 yds and longer.

I disagree. I've seen plenty of accuracy in the 10-20 yard range. Over that? No, I'm not blind. But, then again, there are only a handful of guys at best in this league that are mostly accurate from beyond 20 yards.

3rd Comment: McD stuck to the same script he used all year. Don't expect Orton to do much, bubble screen early and often to get into 3rd and short situations, and attempt to run the ball to offset that as well.

With a full year now under McD and with new guys coming in via the draft and FA, I'm not going to pretend that next year will look exactly like this year.

If you consider Orton taking snaps from under center, and touching the ball 70 times a game as pressure, then yes... I guess he had that monumental task on his plate.

You're right. Coming from behind in wins against Cincy, Dallas, New England were walks in the park. Having to bring a team back from an early 21 pt deficit against the #2 defense in their stadium is easy. Leading go ahead or game tieing drives late in the 4th to Philly and Oakland is nothing.

And doing all that with the supposed worst playcalling (OMane opinion), struggling OLine and no running game to support him makes it even easier.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:22 AM
He has never led a productive offense and he just completed his 5th year. Are you serious?

Yup, let's count two years that he didn't even play. That's not misleading or anything.

WolfpackGuy
01-05-2010, 09:23 AM
3 and outs? Then why was the defense for the most part giving up 90% of the scoring in the first half? They buckled down in the 2nd half and performed better than in the first half pretty much every game. That effectively shoots down the "tired defense" theory.


Ravens, Steelers, and Chargers losses come to mind.

The offense did absolutely nothing in the first halves of those games when some scores would've gone a long way.

The offense (okay, Chris Simms) also hung the defense out to dry in the second half of the Skins game.

As for the Colts and Eagles losses, the offense did nothing until it fell way behind. The first drives in each of those games were 3 and out tone setters. Yeah, the games ended up close, but to expect the defense to shut out high powered offenses on the road is crazy.

The Faiders and Cheaps pretty much kicked the defense's asses. No excuse could possibly be good enough for giving up almost 600 yards rushing to those teams.

Bigdawg26
01-05-2010, 09:24 AM
Alot of Orton's stats is just what it is... STATS!!!! He never took any chances with the football which is why his completion ratio was so high with all the shot passes he threw. Actually he did not throw a deep ball until like week 6? Even in two minute drills, Orton only threw the ball to the RB on the short receiver which is why we can never really score quickly. Also, alot of the TD's were actually plays made by the receivers. Point blank he isn't a franchise QB and he is another Brian Griese or Jake Plummer. A quarterback who is a one hit wonder and will be chased out of town next season if he stays.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:26 AM
That was also the year that their offense scored a paltry 260 pts, but the Bears defense held the opposition to single digit scores in 8 out of 16 games and only gave up 12 ppg which was 1st in the NFL.

During that dream season Orton was excellent throwing the ball. He completed 51.6% of his passes, for 1800 yds while throwing 9 TD's, and 13 INT's.

YEP. He was EXCELLENT.

Idiot take. Again. Take out that lucky season where the defense carried the Bears team to the playoffs and his record is about .500.

Take out the bubble screen option from his pass plays this year and he once again finishes below 60% accuracy for the 4th or 5th time in his career.


Yup, let's simply take out those entire seasons that don't fit our criteria. That'll do it. Great way to debate.

If I simply take out certain things from Tom Brady's game, I can make him look like a .500 QB too.

Let's just ignore that Orton was a rookie in 2005 and his coaching staff knew that they had the #1 defense in the league. Don't you think for a second that that would cause them to call games differently? It may not have had anything to do with him and everything to do with the fact that they told him not to take any chances with the ball BECAUSE they had that defense. I'm sure if they had a worse defense, they would've had him take more chances, throw the ball around more, and rack up more stats. But because they didn't have to, why would they? It's not the NCAA where you get points for blowouts. A win is a win.

bpc
01-05-2010, 09:28 AM
Actually, you fail. They played many different styles of offense this year with different levels of urgency.

I saw plenty of urgency in Indy and Philly in particular.

Fail.



It's not that I don't understand defense. It's that YOU don't understand my argument. I obviously understand the difference between running against 8 in the box vs. 5 and 6. It clearly makes a difference. I just disagree with how much we actually faced 5 and 6 in the box last year vs this year. You seem to think that's all we faced last year. I disagree.



Nobody feared him, yet he was more effective than anything we've seen this year, outside of one game. Whether people feared him or not, he took pressure off the passing game and Cutler. That's the whole point. Outside of probably one game, the running game didn't consistently take the pressure off of Orton.



I disagree. I've seen plenty of accuracy in the 10-20 yard range. Over that? No, I'm not blind. But, then again, there are only a handful of guys at best in this league that are mostly accurate from beyond 20 yards.



With a full year now under McD and with new guys coming in via the draft and FA, I'm not going to pretend that next year will look exactly like this year.



You're right. Coming from behind in wins against Cincy, Dallas, New England were walks in the park. Having to bring a team back from an early 21 pt deficit against the #2 defense in their stadium is easy. Leading go ahead or game tieing drives late in the 4th to Philly and Oakland is nothing.

And doing all that with the supposed worst playcalling (OMane opinion), struggling OLine and no running game to support him makes it even easier.

So you're giving credit to Orton for wins at Cincy (horribly thrown hail mary pass), Dallas (BMarshall 50 yd catch and run for TD?) and New England? Why don't you make it a foursome and give him credit the SD game as well? I mean, sure, Eddie Royal scored two special teams touchdowns but I'm sure Orton factored in there somewhere as well.

You saw a sense of urgency when Denver played Indy and Philly? When? When they were getting blown out in the 1st half of each game? How the defense pitched shutouts or put the offense in great positions time and again and our offense continued to piss down it's leg?

I can only discern from your post that you are actively self-medicating yourself and it's making many thing much better than it actually is.

Popps
01-05-2010, 09:29 AM
I like what Kyle brings. If a better option is out there, of course... take it. But, until that happens, he'll be the guy. I think we could win with the right structure around him.

You certainly don't go replacing a guy that has played well and teammates respect to insert someone like Jason fuggin' Campbell.

Groom a young guy, and go as far as we can with Kyle.

I mean, that is what is GOING to happen. So, folks can kick and scream here all they want. Kyle will return as our starter next season, and we'll likely draft a mid-round QB.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:31 AM
Ravens, Steelers, and Chargers losses come to mind.

Yup. I'm focusing more on the more recent games that I specified above.

Yeah, the games ended up close, but to expect the defense to shut out high powered offenses on the road is crazy.

I'm not expecting shutouts. Holding them just a few points under their season averages, though, is not too much to expect from a unit that is supposedly awesome. And it would've been more than enough to secure a few more victories.

The Faiders and Cheaps pretty much kicked the defense's asses. No excuse could possibly be good enough for giving up almost 600 yards rushing to those teams.

Agreed.

bpc
01-05-2010, 09:33 AM
Yup, let's simply take out those entire seasons that don't fit our criteria. That'll do it. Great way to debate.

If I simply take out certain things from Tom Brady's game, I can make him look like a .500 QB too.

Let's just ignore that Orton was a rookie in 2005 and his coaching staff knew that they had the #1 defense in the league. Don't you think for a second that that would cause them to call games differently? It may not have had anything to do with him and everything to do with the fact that they told him not to take any chances with the ball BECAUSE they had that defense. I'm sure if they had a worse defense, they would've had him take more chances, throw the ball around more, and rack up more stats. But because they didn't have to, why would they? It's not the NCAA where you get points for blowouts. A win is a win.

Doesn't matter. You point to his w/l record which is greatly inflated by a defense which didn't allow anything back in 05. How many of those games did Orton actually win?

You guys are such fools, you cherry pick your stats like crazy and then faced with TEAM stats, you say, "well why shouldn't the coaching staff have leaned on a great defense?"

Then you guys lable Jay a bust when he has no defense and is forced to carry the franchise on his back over 2 and a half years as a starting QB.

You guys are retards. Seriously. They need to come up with a book called "arguing with idiots:The NFL edition".

I've wasted too much time trying to educate you about standard football things but you still don't get it and now I'm done.

WolfpackGuy
01-05-2010, 09:34 AM
Yup. I'm focusing more on the more recent games that I specified above.


Well, I feel the Colts game could've gone the Broncos' way had they been able to pick short yardage, especially early. That was all on the playcalling. Not converting those were killers.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:35 AM
So you're giving credit to Orton for wins at Cincy (horribly thrown hail mary pass), Dallas (BMarshall 50 yd catch and run for TD?) and New England?

Please learn to read. I never said "credit". I said "pressure". Or are you saying that there was no pressure to come back from behind in those games and the running game was leaned on instead of the passing game?

You saw a sense of urgency when Denver played Indy and Philly? When? When they were getting blown out in the 1st half of each game? How the defense pitched shutouts or put the offense in great positions time and again and our offense continued to piss down it's leg?

Defense hasn't pitched a shutout in years.

I can only discern from your post that you are actively self-medicating yourself

Is it possible to self medicate anyone else? Cause I'd like to try that.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 09:37 AM
I've wasted too much time trying to educate you about standard football things but you still don't get it and now I'm done.

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TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 09:40 AM
is it possible to self medicate anyone else? Cause i'd like to try that.

lol

jhns
01-05-2010, 09:51 AM
Yup, let's count two years that he didn't even play. That's not misleading or anything.

Two years in the NFL is two years in the NFL. Why do you think guys are so good when they sit for a couple years before becoming starters?

Also, how is it misleading? Is it that he couldn't beat out Rex and Brian for starting jobs? That helps your argument? He was a 5th year player last year and has yet to lead a productive offense. You are the one that claimed there is nothing to support say he isn't good. Well, there certainly is NOTHING to support that he is good. Lead a single productive offense and then there will at least be something to talk about.

TD30
01-05-2010, 09:58 AM
All I know is that when he was asked to go down field in a game we had to win he had TWO (2) thats TWO (2) interceptions returned for a TD. If we sign him to a 1 year deal fine. If Mcdipstick decides to sign him to a bigger contract than that and hitch his wagon to that horse than fine but if they don't perform goodbye to both. If we give him Cassell type money I may vomit.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 10:08 AM
All I know is that when he was asked to go down field in a game we had to win he had TWO (2) thats TWO (2) interceptions returned for a TD.

He also managed 431 yds passing and would've had over 500 and possibly a lot more points if not for 8 retarded drops. He threw the ball 56 times and yet the haters can only see the 2 that went the other way. Did they suck? Yup. Did it hurt us? Yes. But let's not pretend he had a completely awful day from start to finish.

jhns
01-05-2010, 10:13 AM
He also managed 431 yds passing and would've had over 500 and possibly a lot more points if not for 8 retarded drops. He threw the ball 56 times and yet the haters can only see the 2 that went the other way. Did they suck? Yup. Did it hurt us? Yes. But let's not pretend he had a completely awful day from start to finish.

So looking good on some plays excuses the bad plays, whcih cost us the game? Why don't you want Cutler again?

Also, this stuff that it is everyone else all the time is boring. A lot of those dropped passes were also horrible passes. The receivers did not just drop 8 balls that hit both hands. They dropped poorly thrown balls that they tried making plays on.

TD30
01-05-2010, 10:15 AM
He also managed 431 yds passing and would've had over 500 and possibly a lot more points if not for 8 retarded drops. He threw the ball 56 times and yet the haters can only see the 2 that went the other way. Did they suck? Yup. Did it hurt us? Yes. But let's not pretend he had a completely awful day from start to finish.

Well we won't have to worry about it because he will crawl back into his shell next year throwing those exciting 5 yard passes he is so good at. That may work if Marshall is here but let's not kid ourselves his stats would be much different had Marshall not been here this year. He's a tough guy that I would love to see do very well, but he is nothing more than a stop gap. Don't pay him big money.......

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 10:17 AM
So looking good on some plays excuses the bad plays, whcih cost us the game? Why don't you want Cutler again?

Once again you attempt to make the argument that literacy is overrated.

Where did I or anyone else excuse him? Nowhere. And let's not pretend that those two plays single-handedly cost the Broncos the game.

Also, this stuff that it is everyone else all the time is boring. A lot of those dropped passes were also horrible passes. The receivers did not just drop 8 balls that hit both hands. They dropped poorly thrown balls that they tried making plays on.

All the time? Nope. Not even close.

A lot of them were horrible passes? Seriously? AT LEAST four that I can remember literally hit guys in stride and didn't require any effort whatsoever. I'm not asking guys to make Jabar Gaffney/Brandon Marshall-type circus catches here. These were right in the hands.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 10:18 AM
That may work if Marshall is here but let's not kid ourselves his stats would be much different had Marshall not been here this year.

His stats would be different, but his win/loss record would be within one game of where it is now.

TD30
01-05-2010, 10:23 AM
His stats would be different, but his win/loss record would be within one game of where it is now.

Not sure about that but I have a feeling we will get a chance to see over the next couple of years.

jhns
01-05-2010, 10:23 AM
His stats would be different, but his win/loss record would be within one game of where it is now.

Only if you find someone else to single handedly win the Bengals and Cowboys games(on the offense, the defense and special teams did their jobs). Otherwise it would be at least 2 off.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 10:29 AM
Only if you find someone else to single handedly win the Bengals and Cowboys games(on the offense, the defense and special teams did their jobs). Otherwise it would be at least 2 off.

Yup, his 4 catches for 27 yards, O TDs and 2 drops were clearly instrumental in our beating Cincy.

Peoples Champ
01-05-2010, 10:31 AM
It's not the numbers. The game is about more than numbers.


Ya i know its about wins not numbers, but would you rather be 8-8 with a douchbag QB or 8-8 with a non-dbag QB.

jhns
01-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Yup, his 4 catches for 27 yards, O TDs and 2 drops were clearly instrumental in our beating Cincy.

I don't know what I was thinking, my bad. It was Stokley that won that game. It still was partially due to Marshall though. Orton had to throw so he did his usual lock onto the number one receiver. He then threw into triple coverage to hit Marshall and that is how the deflection happened.

ZONA
01-05-2010, 11:19 AM
In a nutshell, if you are saying we should keep Orton because he was just as good as Cutler, you're missing the point. Maybe some people were happy with Cutler but I always felt like he needed MAJOR improvement in alot of areas to become a lagit franchise QB. He never made those changes and in my eyes, was never a great QB for us. If Orton's stats are essentially the same, that's not good enough. I am one who thinks this team needs something more from the QB position then what we've been getting over the last, well, since Elway retired. We've been searching for our lagit very talented and solid franchise QB. Cutler was not that. Nice arm, nothing between the ears. I'm in no way ready to settle for Orton.

Popps
01-05-2010, 11:28 AM
The offseason Orton discussions are going to be simple, for me.

He's coming back.

He'll be our starter next season.

There's no use in getting too worked up about it. No way in hell does McDaniels pitch away the season on a rookie starter with critical guys like Champ and Dawk nearing the end.

I do suspect we'll begin developing a guy, but short of a blockbuster trade that brings in a guy familiar with the system... Orton will remain our best option. We're not going to go spend a season teaching Jason Campbell the system so he can maybe end up as good as Kyle.

Orton is going to be our starter. People might as well get used to it, and focus on the other, more pressing upgrades this team needs to address... because that's what the team will be doing.

I'm just not worried about the QB spot at this point, until we can put together a real running game and stop teams consistently. I trust McDaniels will develop someone... and use his system to get the most out of them, as he has with Orton.

DrFate
01-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Why does the original poster pick/choose the stats he includes?

I was going to actually give him props for showing a good comparison. But I'm not a drone, so I actually looked a little deeper.

Cutler threw for 4500+ yards, Orton threw for 3800 yards.

THAT'S why Cutler got a Pro Bowl nod.

Detractors can hand wave and try to justify/diminish stats however they want. The numbers aren't the same.

And the original poster should man up and admit his blatent pick/choose approach to the stats to support his premise.

Broncos4tw
01-05-2010, 11:44 AM
Ok... for those who disagree on nearly "all points," please go through the main attributes of an NFL QB, and rate our boy Orton. How is his accuracy, his presense, his mobility... his ability on third downs, his vision, arm strength, his ability to read defences, etc.

I'm really amazed you folks think he is better than average. Why? Explain some plays or games where he really stood out. I can point out MANY games where he failed to prove he is anything but average.

jhns
01-05-2010, 11:49 AM
The offseason Orton discussions are going to be simple, for me.

He's coming back.

He'll be our starter next season.

There's no use in getting too worked up about it. No way in hell does McDaniels pitch away the season on a rookie starter with critical guys like Champ and Dawk nearing the end.

I do suspect we'll begin developing a guy, but short of a blockbuster trade that brings in a guy familiar with the system... Orton will remain our best option. We're not going to go spend a season teaching Jason Campbell the system so he can maybe end up as good as Kyle.

Orton is going to be our starter. People might as well get used to it, and focus on the other, more pressing upgrades this team needs to address... because that's what the team will be doing.

I'm just not worried about the QB spot at this point, until we can put together a real running game and stop teams consistently. I trust McDaniels will develop someone... and use his system to get the most out of them, as he has with Orton.

Yes, we need to keep Orton around so he can lead more 8 win seasons. We can't let Dawkins and Champ go without a few more of those under their belts.

McDaniels needs to actually search for a better option and get it if at all possible. Orton is not the answer and waiting around because it is hard to find good QBs or because there are other needs will not fix the problem we have at the most important offensive position. I would rather teach a rookie while we are rebuilding rather than wait until the team is ready and only being held back by the QB.

ORton should be resigned but only because we can take advantage of no CBA and get him for a year. If he improves next year, then sign him to a long contract. We would have to give him a lot to sign long term and at that point, we are stuck with him. Well, that or we get the disadvantage of less cap space for a while.

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 11:53 AM
Ok... for those who disagree on nearly "all points," please go through the main attributes of an NFL QB, and rate our boy Orton. How is his accuracy, his presense, his mobility... his ability on third downs, his vision, arm strength, his ability to read defences, etc.

I'm really amazed you folks think he is better than average. Why? Explain some plays or games where he really stood out. I can point out MANY games where he failed to prove he is anything but average.



....and although the majority of EXPERTS including the self proclaimed ones' on the mane had our team going 2-14 to a high of 3-13 at the beginning of the season, this horribly AVERAGE QB helped us eek out a .500 season record.

please point out all of those games where he failed!

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 11:58 AM
Ok... for those who disagree on nearly "all points," please go through the main attributes of an NFL QB, and rate our boy Orton. How is his accuracy, his presense, his mobility...

Main attributes of an NFL QB? Mobility? Don't tell that to Marino, Brady and Manning.

ZONA
01-05-2010, 12:07 PM
Main attributes of an NFL QB? Mobility? Don't tell that to Marino, Brady and Manning.


To be fair that was not the first one he listed. He's not saying Mobility is the #1 attribute you are looking for but some mobility is crucial. I don't think it's so much of a problem that Orton doesn't run like a deer but it's more of the fact that if there is a strong gust of wind, he's going to fall down. And Marino, Brady and Manning all had/have amazing accuracy which makes up for their lack of mobility. Orton doesn't have that same accuracy so him not being mobile really hurts his game more so then the others mentioned.

BioCore
01-05-2010, 12:25 PM
I think you make a fair point HAT, nice work

All I would say is that last year Cutler had to deal with a phenominal amount of injuries at RB basically meaning teams would hone in on him being the only threat our whole team had and he still delivered for the most part whereas Orton had a D and healthy RB's on his side

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 12:28 PM
I think you make a fair point HAT, nice work

All I would say is that last year Cutler had to deal with a phenominal amount of injuries at RB basically meaning teams would hone in on him being the only threat our whole team had and he still delivered for the most part whereas Orton had a D and healthy RB's on his side

Who cares about their health when the 5th string running back one year is rushing more effectively than the 1st stringer the next year? Last year's running game was FAR more effective than this year's, so for people to keep harping on all the injuries at that position just doesn't make sense. It didn't matter who they plugged in.

2KBack
01-05-2010, 12:28 PM
I think you make a fair point HAT, nice work

All I would say is that last year Cutler had to deal with a phenominal amount of injuries at RB basically meaning teams would hone in on him being the only threat our whole team had and he still delivered for the most part whereas Orton had a D and healthy RB's on his side

that's kind of a myth, even with all the injured Running backs, Denver was more successful when they ran the ball last season. Cutler benefitted from a running game far more than Orton did in actuality. He also benefitted from a 100% healthy offensive line.

Orton had a D, that is true, but an overrated one. Especially in the second half of the season.

BioCore
01-05-2010, 12:33 PM
Fair points

TD30
01-05-2010, 12:53 PM
Well if it's a medicore qb you want and a low scoreing team that can't run the ball because opposing D's are stacking the line daring mr inept to pass than thats what you'll get. Let's face it Orton's nothing more than a back up in this league, better than Simms yes but we are better off playing Brandstater and developing him (Thats MCd's plan eventually, right?) We can sign Orton to a 1 year contract, thats it....

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 01:00 PM
Yup, I can name a dozen mediocre backup QBs that could put up the numbers Orton did this year with, according to folks here, the worst play caller in the league, a struggling OLine, and no support from the running game, all while facing the 3rd most difficult schedule in the league.




Damn, I just broke my sarcasm button.

TD30
01-05-2010, 01:25 PM
All I'm saying is that he is not the long term answer. If we had a top D a dominate O line and only needed to score 10 to 17 points a game to win then Ortons your man. There is not 1 person I talked to at the games or here locally that thinks Orton is capable of leading THIS team anywhere. As said time after time he won't win you any games and he won't lose them either. Oh wait 2 pics for 6 could be considered losing a game. I know the D played poor but we were in the game Sunday that second pic was a morale killer. You stated it yourself last year we could run, that had just a little to do with the fact that we had a QB that could make you pay for stacking the line to stop the run. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sure one of us can bump this thread next year.

sarcasm button fixed

gyldenlove
01-05-2010, 01:58 PM
....and although the majority of EXPERTS including the self proclaimed ones' on the mane had our team going 2-14 to a high of 3-13 at the beginning of the season, this horribly AVERAGE QB helped us eek out a .500 season record.

please point out all of those games where he failed!

IS that the new strawman argument of the season you are trying on there, it is very becoming.

If you go back and check the prediction poll you will see a lot of us predicted 7, 8 or 9 wins before the season.

Here is a list of poor Orton games:

Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego 2, Kansas City 1 and 2, Oakland 2 and Philly.

Against Cincy he did nothing all day and then needed Stokley to bail his ass out.
Baltimore and Pittsbirgh both owned him all day.
The 2nd San Diego he was injured so that is fair enough.
In the 1st Kansas City game he did everything he could to not win the game including 3 turnovers, but was bailed out by our run game and defense. The 2nd Kansas City game was just pathetic all around, tons of yards but a million turnovers and lousy 3rd down play.
The 2nd Oakland game was pathetic, 3 failed red zone attempts, we just needed 1 of them to be a TD to win, but no dice. Took a couple of very costly sacks and converted only 4 of 15 3rd downs.
The Philly game is another game that doesn't look bad on paper, but when you consider we had 7 3 and outs and struggled with opportunities, including Orton throwing a pick on the Philly half when we really needed points.

TD30
01-05-2010, 02:06 PM
IS that the new strawman argument of the season you are trying on there, it is very becoming.

If you go back and check the prediction poll you will see a lot of us predicted 7, 8 or 9 wins before the season.

Here is a list of poor Orton games:

Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego 2, Kansas City 1 and 2, Oakland 2 and Philly.

Against Cincy he did nothing all day and then needed Stokley to bail his ass out.
Baltimore and Pittsbirgh both owned him all day.
The 2nd San Diego he was injured so that is fair enough.
In the 1st Kansas City game he did everything he could to not win the game including 3 turnovers, but was bailed out by our run game and defense. The 2nd Kansas City game was just pathetic all around, tons of yards but a million turnovers and lousy 3rd down play.
The 2nd Oakland game was pathetic, 3 failed red zone attempts, we just needed 1 of them to be a TD to win, but no dice. Took a couple of very costly sacks and converted only 4 of 15 3rd downs.
The Philly game is another game that doesn't look bad on paper, but when you consider we had 7 3 and outs and struggled with opportunities, including Orton throwing a pick on the Philly half when we really needed points.


Game, set, match

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 02:10 PM
IS that the new strawman argument of the season you are trying on there, it is very becoming.

If you go back and check the prediction poll you will see a lot of us predicted 7, 8 or 9 wins before the season.

Here is a list of poor Orton games:

Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego 2, Kansas City 1 and 2, Oakland 2 and Philly.

Against Cincy he did nothing all day and then needed Stokley to bail his ass out.
Baltimore and Pittsbirgh both owned him all day.
The 2nd San Diego he was injured so that is fair enough.
In the 1st Kansas City game he did everything he could to not win the game including 3 turnovers, but was bailed out by our run game and defense. The 2nd Kansas City game was just pathetic all around, tons of yards but a million turnovers and lousy 3rd down play.
The 2nd Oakland game was pathetic, 3 failed red zone attempts, we just needed 1 of them to be a TD to win, but no dice. Took a couple of very costly sacks and converted only 4 of 15 3rd downs.
The Philly game is another game that doesn't look bad on paper, but when you consider we had 7 3 and outs and struggled with opportunities, including Orton throwing a pick on the Philly half when we really needed points.



Here's your blabbering about the Ravens game:"There is no way you can put this loss on Orton. The defense didn't play well out there, the special teams were the worst they have been all year and the protection broke down around Orton a lot, the run game never got going.

No part of this team held up their end yesterday, it was hopefully a one time thing and we can fix it and get back up to speed against Pittsburgh. The only real positive was that we were able to hold Ray Rice better than most teams except for the last drive when our run defense broke down."

Doesn't seem to jive with your latest post, does it?

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 02:11 PM
Game, set, match

Tennis is for ******s and manly women!

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 02:15 PM
IS that the new strawman argument of the season you are trying on there, it is very becoming.

If you go back and check the prediction poll you will see a lot of us predicted 7, 8 or 9 wins before the season.

Here is a list of poor Orton games:

Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego 2, Kansas City 1 and 2, Oakland 2 and Philly.

Against Cincy he did nothing all day and then needed Stokley to bail his ass out.
Baltimore and Pittsbirgh both owned him all day.
The 2nd San Diego he was injured so that is fair enough.
In the 1st Kansas City game he did everything he could to not win the game including 3 turnovers, but was bailed out by our run game and defense. The 2nd Kansas City game was just pathetic all around, tons of yards but a million turnovers and lousy 3rd down play.
The 2nd Oakland game was pathetic, 3 failed red zone attempts, we just needed 1 of them to be a TD to win, but no dice. Took a couple of very costly sacks and converted only 4 of 15 3rd downs.
The Philly game is another game that doesn't look bad on paper, but when you consider we had 7 3 and outs and struggled with opportunities, including Orton throwing a pick on the Philly half when we really needed points.


Here's another headscratcher, considering your post "1. Good hire, Mcdaniels knows football and it was time for a change. It is clear he has a blueprint and so far it looks decent. I am big on Mcdaniels and I think that given a bit more time he will do great things.

2. Not a fan of the front office. The Al Smith trade was at best misguided and the Quinn trade and pick were abysmal. Some of the free agent signings are good, Dawkins, Davis, Fields especially, but Goodman and Simms are both overpaid and underqualified. The draft as a whole was disappointing at best, but a lot will be riding on how they handle the slew of free agents we have coming up.

3. I like Orton, he has a good eye and understands the game very well. I like his toughness, I would just wish he had a bit more arm and was quicker when he has to move. I don't have much hope for Brandstater, he has to beat some pretty steep odds to become successful in this league. In the long run there is no doubt in my mind that we need to draft a QB high, but it doesn't have to be this year.

4. I didn't like the trade when it went down, there is no doubt that Cutler has more upside than Orton and combined with Mcdaniels system he could have been great. On the other hand Orton has outperformed all expectations and the 2 first rounders have come in handy, so the way it looks now we definitely won that trade."


and then this gem a few days later:"Mcdaniels has Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, there is no other explanation why he would start Simms. I have seen dog turds do a more convincing impersonation of a QB than Simms." (see line item 1. above)

****ing schizophrenic.

or maybe it was a poisonous splinter from your wooden shoes.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 02:19 PM
Here is a list of poor Orton games:

Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego 2, Kansas City 1 and 2, Oakland 2 and Philly.

Against Cincy he did nothing all day and then needed Stokley to bail his ass out.

Nowhere near a poor game. The guy was one week removed from a throwing finger dislocation, in a new system with all new players and completed 60% of his passes and no turnovers.

Baltimore and Pittsbirgh both owned him all day.

Baltimore owned EVERYBODY that day. Most notably, the OLine.

Pittsburgh was a poor game for him. No argument there.

In the 1st Kansas City game he did everything he could to not win the game including 3 turnovers, but was bailed out by our run game and defense.

Not a great game, but he did throw 2 TDs, which in fact, was all that would've been needed to win. Poor is a stretch IMO.

The 2nd Kansas City game was just pathetic all around, tons of yards but a million turnovers and lousy 3rd down play.

He threw the ball 56 times!
3 picks, 1 in garbage time on a prayer, doesn't equal pathetic.
There were 8 dropped passes that contributed to the lousy looking play.
It wasn't a great personal game, but it wasn't poor IMO.

The 2nd Oakland game was pathetic, 3 failed red zone attempts, we just needed 1 of them to be a TD to win, but no dice. Took a couple of very costly sacks and converted only 4 of 15 3rd downs.

Those costly sacks were mathematically the thing to do. Everyone acknowledged it at the time. Better than incomplete passes to stop the clock and certainly better than forcing potential INTs.

Most importantly, he left the field with the lead. The defense gave it up.

The Philly game is another game that doesn't look bad on paper, but when you consider we had 7 3 and outs and struggled with opportunities, including Orton throwing a pick on the Philly half when we really needed points.

Not a poor game. Another solid, late drive against a tough defense that was wasted.

Beantown Bronco
01-05-2010, 02:20 PM
Here's your blabbering about the Ravens game:"There is no way you can put this loss on Orton. The defense didn't play well out there, the special teams were the worst they have been all year and the protection broke down around Orton a lot, the run game never got going.

No part of this team held up their end yesterday, it was hopefully a one time thing and we can fix it and get back up to speed against Pittsburgh. The only real positive was that we were able to hold Ray Rice better than most teams except for the last drive when our run defense broke down."

Doesn't seem to jive with your latest post, does it?

Own-age.

Peoples Champ
01-05-2010, 02:21 PM
I think you make a fair point HAT, nice work

All I would say is that last year Cutler had to deal with a phenominal amount of injuries at RB basically meaning teams would hone in on him being the only threat our whole team had and he still delivered for the most part whereas Orton had a D and healthy RB's on his side


They made similar excuses for Cutler this year in Chicago. I just wonder how long until its Cutlers fault.

TailgateNut
01-05-2010, 02:22 PM
Own-age.

The guy is a literal "Man of La Mancha".

It's those evil windmills!

elsid13
01-05-2010, 04:07 PM
I wonder if those numbers would be any different if Orton had one of the worst defenses ever and had to come up with a score on every drive, and Cutler had a pretty good defense, where he could manage the game.

I'm just saying. ;D

I am actually wondering how Orton would fair with #1 WR with bum hip that had problems getting out of his break. Cutler threw some dumb INTs, but some of the INTs were on him holding onto the ball to long waiting for Marshall to make his break/cut, giving the corner/safety a chance to recover. It not always the QB fault when a ball is intercepted.

rastaman
01-05-2010, 04:37 PM
I'm as disgusted as anyone over the way the season finished but I can't for the life of me see why people think it's a QB 'problem' ?

His '09 numbers are almost identical to Cutler's '08 numbers (Which earned Cutler a Pro Bowl trip....yikes!)

Jay Cutler last year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.8
Y/C: 11.8
Y/A: 7.3
%: 62,3
TD: 25
INT: 18
Team record: 8-8

Kyle Orton this year with the Broncos:

QBR: 86.0
Y/C: 11.3
Y/A: 7.0
%: 62.1
TD: 21
INT: 12
Team record: 8-8

Let's look at that in reverse also....

'08 Orton with the Bears:

QBR: 79.6
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.4
%: 58.5
TD: 18
INT: 12
Team record: 9-7

'09 Cutler with the Bears:
QBR: 76.8
Y/C: 10.9
Y/A: 6.6
%: 60.5
TD: 27
INT: 26
Team record: 7-9

So how is it that people think we need to draft a QBOTF this year when they were perfectly happy with Jay in that role? They performed damn near identical in each others systems.

Orton inconsistencies might be just getting started. How much better in 2010 will Orton have improved from 2009? Thats the question. Also the fans and myself included aren't sold that Orton is the answer to bring this time back from a 14 point deficit let alone win overtime games consistently

Orton proved last Sunday why he played so conservatively thru 16 weeks. It b/c when he takes valid chances he has the propensity to throw interceptions and some of those interceptions will end in TD's.

HAT
01-05-2010, 07:34 PM
Why does the original poster pick/choose the stats he includes?

I was going to actually give him props for showing a good comparison. But I'm not a drone, so I actually looked a little deeper.

Cutler threw for 4500+ yards, Orton threw for 3800 yards.

THAT'S why Cutler got a Pro Bowl nod.

Detractors can hand wave and try to justify/diminish stats however they want. The numbers aren't the same.

And the original poster should man up and admit his blatent pick/choose approach to the stats to support his premise.

Please refer to post #10....Specifically:



Cutler got 4,500 yards b/c all they did was throw. But the completion %, yards per completion and yards per attempt are basically the same.

Orton was to the Broncos what Cutler was last year. Cutler was to the Bears what Orton was last year.


Cutler had 75 more attempts.

The valid comparison is bolded above....YPC, YPA and Comp. % were damn near identical.

Same as they were for both while playing in the Bears system.

These are not 'cherry picked' stats. The original post contains the most relevant stats that QB's are compared by.

They are interchangeable QB's. Again, I'm not sold on Orton longer than 2-3 years but he's a perfect stop gap, just as Jay would've been, for a few years.
My stance is that I don't believe Denver needs to waste a high pick by reaching for a QB in 2010 when there are better options coming down the road in 2012-2013.

strafen
01-05-2010, 07:44 PM
Well if it's a medicore qb you want and a low scoreing team that can't run the ball because opposing D's are stacking the line daring mr inept to pass than thats what you'll get. Let's face it Orton's nothing more than a back up in this league, better than Simms yes but we are better off playing Brandstater and developing him (Thats MCd's plan eventually, right?) We can sign Orton to a 1 year contract, thats it....We've got to start with a different QB next season. That shouldn't even be up for discussion.
I don't know what is it that people see in Orton to even wanting to have him as our QB next year. That's nucking futs! Ha!

HAT
01-05-2010, 07:45 PM
They made similar excuses for Cutler this year in Chicago.

This here is the heart of matter....

People make excuses for why Jay only won X amount of games.

People make excuses for how Orton possibly won those same X amount of games.

Interchangeable.

strafen
01-05-2010, 07:50 PM
They are interchangeable QB's. Again, I'm not sold on Orton longer than 2-3 years but he's a perfect stop gap, just as Jay would've been, for a few years.
My stance is that I don't believe Denver needs to waste a high pick by reaching for a QB in 2010 when there are better options coming down the road in 2012-2013.We need a QB ASAP!
Who have the luxury to wait 3 years to get one?
My preference would be to give Brandstater a shot to compete for the starting position to see what we've got.
The guy seems to be a solid QB with NFL potntial. He was a 4-year starter in college, and played 3 consecutive seasons with 3 different OC's
So, he's smart enought to adapt to a new system.

That said, we could also take a shot at the draft. I don't see anybody coming out next year that would be worth a shot, other than Tebow.

TD30
01-05-2010, 07:59 PM
Tennis is for ******s and manly women!

Lol just your type eh? No need to get personal we were just sharing a point of view. I don't wish for the broncos to fail including orton I just think signing him to a big contract is a mistake.

ScottXray
01-05-2010, 08:14 PM
Why is it that you never take stats into consideration.
Marshall had the most catches at a rate of 2:1 to the next guy on the team.
Gaffney had 54 catches this season, 14 of those came in last Sunday against the chiefs.
Orton can go thru progressions all he wants, at the end of the day, he will still be locked onto one receiver. He missed a lot of wide open receivers downfield in favor of one open 3 yard off the LOS.

Gaffney was his primary receiver in the last game.
Gaffney caught 14 passes, the next closest guy in catches was Stokley with 5.
And when KC started to double team Gaffney, that's when Orton started to crap out by throwing interceptions.

Numbers don't lie. Take the time to check them out before you dispute facts with your own opinions...

just a fact here...both of the passes for pick sixes were not going to Gaffney... the first was to a WR and was underthrown...Ortons fault.

Second was to Graham and the LB did a good job of reading the play and hiding then made a great break to the ball.. Orton didn't see him, but he was screened behind the line. Mostly Ortons fault as he should have thrown it higher and dropped it in to Graham instead of a soft throw.

Third pick was Garbage time and I don't think it changed anything...He Had to throw to the end zone and the DB outplayed the reciever.

When you are behind the entire game, and have to throw over 50 times to try to keep up with a team your Defense hasn't stopped at all, BAD things happen. Mostly Orton played a very good game. You can only go to the well SO many times before they start to figure things out. We went to the well too many times.

DBroncos4life
01-05-2010, 09:03 PM
just a fact here...both of the passes for pick sixes were not going to Gaffney... the first was to a WR and was underthrown...Ortons fault.

Second was to Graham and the LB did a good job of reading the play and hiding then made a great break to the ball.. Orton didn't see him, but he was screened behind the line. Mostly Ortons fault as he should have thrown it higher and dropped it in to Graham instead of a soft throw.

Third pick was Garbage time and I don't think it changed anything...He Had to throw to the end zone and the DB outplayed the reciever.

When you are behind the entire game, and have to throw over 50 times to try to keep up with a team your Defense hasn't stopped at all, BAD things happen. Mostly Orton played a very good game. You can only go to the well SO many times before they start to figure things out. We went to the well too many times.
Does that excuse count if your jersey says Cutler on the back?

strafen
01-05-2010, 09:13 PM
just a fact here...both of the passes for pick sixes were not going to Gaffney... the first was to a WR and was underthrown...Ortons fault.

Second was to Graham and the LB did a good job of reading the play and hiding then made a great break to the ball.. Orton didn't see him, but he was screened behind the line. Mostly Ortons fault as he should have thrown it higher and dropped it in to Graham instead of a soft throw.

Third pick was Garbage time and I don't think it changed anything...He Had to throw to the end zone and the DB outplayed the reciever.

When you are behind the entire game, and have to throw over 50 times to try to keep up with a team your Defense hasn't stopped at all, BAD things happen. Mostly Orton played a very good game. You can only go to the well SO many times before they start to figure things out. We went to the well too many times.I understand that, and I also saw it.
What I'm trying to point out is that Orton was forced into making plays he wasn't comfortable making.
He became erratic once his safety blanket was taken away form him...

strafen
01-05-2010, 09:19 PM
When you are behind the entire game, and have to throw over 50 times to try to keep up with a team your Defense hasn't stopped at all, BAD things happen. Mostly Orton played a very good game. You can only go to the well SO many times before they start to figure things out. We went to the well too many times.That's one of the weakest faculties of Orton.
You can't count on him to rally the team back from deficit.
Not saying he can't flat out do it, but chances are he won't pull it off.
Tell you what, we can't have that guy at QB next season. No way.
No bashing the guy, it is what it is...

Broncos4tw
01-05-2010, 09:28 PM
Look, it's a simple equation. Can Orton win us a SB? If not, there is little point to him being our starter. If you look back at the QBs in the last 15 years, there are few exceptions to the cardinal rule: you need a franchise QB to win the big game. Because when you hit the playoffs, and every game is against a contender, the QB has to make some good plays to make it happen. If he is incapable of doing this, you are done.

If your opinions are really that he is that good of a QB, nothing anyone says will sway you. I put him along the lines of a Griese, another QB I doubt will ever be hoisting a Lombardi, unless as the backup.

Orton is simply too average in too many areas of the game. He doesn't do the small things, he doesn't do the big things.

He throws some medium length passes with a modicum of precision. About 3/4s of them. But there is a lot more to QB than this. Can he rush for first downs when needed? Seemingly once every 10 games or so. Can he escape defenders in his face? Almost never. Does he fully utilize all the weapons on the team? lol. Is the offense tailor-made around him so he can have a positive game, and does it adversely affect the teams ability to be productive? Yup. No play action, starts in the shotgun more often than not, requires very good protection. He is not one of those QBs that can throw the ball with someone in his face.

I know he is around next year, which is too bad. I guarantee with him stating as QB next year, we won't win the SB. Unless our defense makes an amazing turnaround and is the best in the league. It's not going to happen. If you like to not go to the SB, by all means, keep supporting this QB.

He has shown me nothing that sets him apart from Griese. The only thing he has is a stronger arm, but his lack of precision keeps the long ball from being a reality, unless a Marshall has a classic mismatch for the game. He throws just as many very short balls, scambles just as badly, makes just as many poor decisions.

Gritty? Sure, whatever. Good attitude? Team player? Ok.. big whoop once again. Leader? If you say so. I don't think he is. Does he rally the offense? Does he read the defense and change the play to take advantage of a situation? Does he shrug off someone hanging on him and make a great throw? That's leadership to me. He does not have this.

Last thing I guess I'll say on this is this. I'm a Bronco fan, have been for over 30 years. I've supported them through thick and thin, that will never stop. If I have negative things to say about any player, it's only because I really feel that they are not going to help our team the Broncos get back to the big game. I've nothing against Orton personally, or any Bronco fan, either. I've watched them from the south stands in the old stadium, and in 5 other stadiums across the U.S. while I served in the military. My support for this team has never wavered. It kind of sucks to have so much bickering over this crap. I'll always be a fan, and any negatives about any player is completely up front.. I just want the team to win. I've been surprised by the amount of hate around here this year. I hope this team improves, because it sucks.

Oh.. and I can't fathom how Lion fans handle this after decades... holy crap.

ScottXray
01-06-2010, 12:01 AM
Does that excuse count if your jersey says Cutler on the back?

Nope...throwing 50 times is on the coach...whether his name is Shanahan or McD. It is still a bad thing. You have to find a way to get the run game going...

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2010, 07:27 AM
Does that excuse count if your jersey says Cutler on the back?

Cutler did the following this year:

4 INTs vs GB despite it being a 6 pt game and only throwing 36 times
2 INTs vs Atlanta in a 7 pt game
5 INTs vs San Fran in a 6-10 game.
2 INTs vs Minn with only 23 throws
2 INTs vs Green Bay in a 7 pt game
3 INTs vs Baltimore after only 27 throws

Yup, definitely the same thing.

WolfpackGuy
01-06-2010, 07:32 AM
Look, it's a simple equation. Can Orton win us a SB?


I hope not even the Orton defenders are thinking this...

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2010, 07:38 AM
I hope not even the Orton defenders are thinking this...

He's 4-3 as a starter against the current playoff teams, so I'm not sure why you'd say this.

jhns
01-06-2010, 07:43 AM
He's 4-3 as a starter against the current playoff teams, so I'm not sure why you'd say this.

Yeah, because those teams were playing the same at the start of the season...

Also, he would have to go 4-0 against them...

fontaine
01-06-2010, 07:44 AM
Nope...throwing 50 times is on the coach...whether his name is Shanahan or McD. It is still a bad thing. You have to find a way to get the run game going...

That's pretty much it.

REGARDLESS of whether you think Orton is a keeper or not the one undeniable thing is that our running game was poor this year overall. We couldn't run it on 3rd downs (out of around 215 third down attempts we ran the ball 31 times only), we're down near the bottom of the league in rushing yards per game, and it got worse as the year went on.

Some of it is the scheme, some of it the interior, and some of it comes down to the coach. McD just abandons the run too much too easy and puts the ball on Orton's shoulders.

That's going to go against any QB in his first year in a system regardless of how good he is or isn't.

The bottom line is McDaniels needs to find a way to improve a running game that's loaded with two talented backs, and three very good OL.

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2010, 07:45 AM
Yeah, because those teams were playing the same at the start of the season...

Also, he would have to go 4-0 against them...

Huh? Aside from San Diego, none of those teams that we beat have looked consistently better in December than they did when we played them.

Also, he would have to go 4-0 against them...

Please explain to me how one can go 4-0 in a 7 game schedule.

jhns
01-06-2010, 07:52 AM
Huh? Aside from San Diego, none of those teams that we beat have looked consistently better in December than they did when we played them.



Please explain to me how one can go 4-0 in a 7 game schedule.

That is a joke. Dallas went to overtime with KC the week after us. They are playing way better now. Orton didn't beat the Bengals. He did nothing at all in that game and their offense was way off. That could have been our defense or it could have been the 10 dropped balls by their receivers and rust from Palmer. They have definately played better.

Screw that argument though. Here is why your argument fails. In order to win a SB, you have to beat those teams in December and January. Orton couldn't beat Oakland and KC late in the year. So that pretty much settles that.

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2010, 08:08 AM
That is a joke. Dallas went to overtime with KC the week after us. They are playing way better now. Orton didn't beat the Bengals. He did nothing at all in that game and their offense was way off. That could have been our defense or it could have been the 10 dropped balls by their receivers and rust from Palmer. They have definately played better.


At times, but not consistently. They hardly looked great losing to Oakland Thanksgiving week, losing by 20 to Minnesota in week 14, or losing 37-0 to the Jets.


Screw that argument though. Here is why your argument fails. In order to win a SB, you have to beat those teams in December and January. Orton couldn't beat Oakland and KC late in the year. So that pretty much settles that.

Here is why your argument fails:

1. Orton left the field against Oakland with the lead. He didn't play defense and lose the game in the final minute.

2. Neither of those teams are in the playoffs, so they are outside the scope of the analysis.

3. Elway went 2-2 in December of 2007, losing convincingly to Pittsburgh, only to come back and beat them in the playoffs and win the SB.

4. Elway couldn't beat the 8-8 NY Giants and Miami in December of 1998, yet won the SB that year.

jhns
01-06-2010, 08:16 AM
At times, but not consistently. They hardly looked great losing to Oakland Thanksgiving week, losing by 20 to Minnesota in week 14, or losing 37-0 to the Jets.




Here is why your argument fails:

1. Orton left the field against Oakland with the lead. He didn't play defense and lose the game in the final minute.

2. Neither of those teams are in the playoffs, so they are outside the scope of the analysis.

3. Elway went 2-2 in December of 2007, losing convincingly to Pittsburgh, only to come back and beat them in the playoffs and win the SB.

4. Elway couldn't beat the 8-8 NY Giants and Miami in December of 1998, yet won the SB that year.

1) He lost. Good excuse. It was oakland....

2) How are you going to convince anyone he can beat playoff teams late in the year when he can't beat two of the worst teams in the league by that time? Of course you don't want them brought up. It makes your argument look horrible.

3) You mean 97? You mean when we rested a bunch of players because we already had our playoff spot locked up?

4) Same as above. Also, 8-8 is far better than losing to KC and Oak....

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2010, 08:25 AM
3) You mean 97? You mean when we rested a bunch of players because we already had our playoff spot locked up?

4) Same as above. Also, 8-8 is far better than losing to KC and Oak....

Elway started and at least played into the 4th quarter of all of those games. Nice try, though.

And Orton was missing 5 offensive starters this past week, so let's not talk about resting guys.

strafen
01-06-2010, 08:36 AM
Elway started and at least played into the 4th quarter of all of those games. Nice try, though.

And Orton was missing 5 offensive starters this past week, so let's not talk about resting guys.

Don't ever mention Elway in the same sentence with Orton.
Orton sucks. He's flat out a mediocre QB
If the Broncos still have him as our starter next season, we will be ****ed.
Trust me!

Rabb
01-06-2010, 08:41 AM
Don't ever mention Elway in the same sentence with Orton.
Orton sucks. He's flat out a mediocre QB
If the Broncos still have him as our starter next season, we will be ****ed.
Trust me!

you just did

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2010, 08:46 AM
Don't ever mention Elway in the same sentence with Orton.

Hey, did you see those articles yesterday where they quoted Elway as he was discussing Orton. They were great!

Orton sucks. He's flat out a mediocre QB


By definition, both these statements cannot be true.

If the Broncos still have him as our starter next season, we will be ****ed.
Trust me!

I wouldn't trust you to pick up dog crap in my back yard. You'd find a way to screw that up.

jhns
01-06-2010, 08:57 AM
Hey, did you see those articles yesterday where they quoted Elway as he was discussing Orton. They were great!
.

Hey, did you see Elway talk about Cutler the entire time he was here? He said Cutler was going to be one of the greats. He then said it was a mistake to get rid of him. A month later, he started dogging Cutler some....

Elway says whatever will please the masses. He knows how to stay on Bronco fans good side.

oubronco
01-06-2010, 08:59 AM
I hope not even the Orton defenders are thinking this...

so are you saying you don't want them to win the superbowl

oubronco
01-06-2010, 09:04 AM
Don't ever mention Elway in the same sentence with Orton.
Orton sucks. He's flat out a mediocre QB
If the Broncos still have him as our starter next season, we will be ****ed.
Trust me!

Dude give it a rest Orton might not be your favorite QB but he IS the QB of the Broncos like it or not so get with the program or get the f**k out

WolfpackGuy
01-06-2010, 09:04 AM
so are you saying you don't want them to win the superbowl

I didn't say that.

LOL

Unless the defense suddenly morphs into the 85 Bears, 00 Ravens, or 02 Bucs, it won't happen.

jhns
01-06-2010, 09:06 AM
so are you saying you don't want them to win the superbowl

How do you come to this conclusion from what was said?

oubronco
01-06-2010, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by Broncos4tw
Look, it's a simple equation. Can Orton win us a SB?

I hope not even the Orton defenders are thinking this...

:ouwknow:

jhns
01-06-2010, 09:11 AM
Dude give it a rest Orton might not be your favorite QB but he IS the QB of the Broncos like it or not so get with the program or get the **** out

So if we see you say a player isn't good, needs replaced, or isn't getting their job done, we know you don't want the team to win the SB and it is time for you to stop being a fan? Got it.

So, how did we go 8-8 with a perfect roster? Are you saying the coaches are that bad?

oubronco
01-06-2010, 09:15 AM
So if we see you say a player isn't good, needs replaced, or isn't getting their job done, we know you don't want the team to win the SB and it is time for you to stop being a fan? Got it.

Dude have your opinion and all but Good Grief this constant bickering and bitching is grown very old and face the facts

McD wants Orton to be his QB so he's going to be the QB nothing anyone else can do about it...........Get over it

jhns
01-06-2010, 09:21 AM
Dude have your opinion and all but Good Grief this constant bickering and b****ing is grown very old and face the facts

McD wants Orton to be his QB so he's going to be the QB nothing anyone else can do about it...........Get over it

Well you can't do anything about anything Bronco related. You mise well just stop posting here if you go by your advice.

Who says McDaniels thinks this way? Did he pass up every chance to replace him or bring in competition this offseason? I didn't know FA and the draft were already over.

oubronco
01-06-2010, 09:24 AM
Well you can't do anything about anything Bronco related. You mise well just stop posting here if you go by your advice.

Who says McDaniels thinks this way? Did he pass up every chance to replace him or bring in competition this offseason? I didn't know FA and the draft were already over.

Who's the coach?

Who's the QB?

Who makes the decision on who the Qb is?

bendog
01-06-2010, 09:35 AM
I can't believe Orton was not selected for the probowl. This is an outrange and insult to the entire bronconation.

TailgateNut
01-06-2010, 09:38 AM
I can't believe Orton was not selected for the probowl. This is an outrange and insult to the entire bronconation.


LOL....more of an outrage is the fact that ****ler didn't get his second free trip to Hawaii. He IS to football what bread is to a sandwich. Ya just can't do one without the other.Hilarious!

jhns
01-06-2010, 09:39 AM
Who's the coach?

Who's the QB?

Who makes the decision on who the Qb is?

Good one. To bad your childish logic has failed again. Orton was only under contract for last season. That means our QB is either Simms or Branstater. Want to try again?

Maybe you should stop posting because you can't control what we talk about. Isn't that something you just said? We need to get over what we can't control but you need to keep going on about what you can't control? Nice.

bendog
01-06-2010, 09:58 AM
absolutely, culter just sucks. A blind jerkwad can see that!!!!

oubronco
01-06-2010, 10:02 AM
Good one. To bad your childish logic has failed again. Orton was only under contract for last season. That means our QB is either Simms or Branstater. Want to try again?

Maybe you should stop posting because you can't control what we talk about. Isn't that something you just said? We need to get over what we can't control but you need to keep going on about what you can't control? Nice.


http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14119470

Pat Bowlen wasn't smiling Sunday evening. No reason for that after his Broncos just topped off a 6-0 start with a devastating 2-8 finish.

But Bowlen walked away from his 26th season as the Broncos' owner with his usual quiet dignity. Bowlen knew his young coach, Josh McDan- iels, made a difficult decision when he decided to bench two of his best offensive players, Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, with the playoffs potentially at stake.

"Unfortunately, we lost this game, but I have no problems with the coach," Bowlen said as he left the home locker room at Invesco Field. "He's my coach."

McDaniels finished his first season as the Broncos' head coach with an 8-8 record. Kyle Orton finished his first season as the Broncos' quarterback with career highs of 3,802 yards passing and 21 touchdowns but also three interceptions in the final game.

As he walked to his car Sunday night, Bowlen stopped long enough to endorse McDaniels as his coach for the foreseeable future.

McDaniels said he can improve on his first-year work.

"I certainly can do a better job of what I do, and I'm not going to go into detail about this, that and the other," McDaniels said. "I'm looking forward to getting better in the offseason at what I do. And trying to improve our team in every way that I can."

One way, McDaniels said, is to help Orton become a better quarterback.

"This was his first season and he'll get better," McDaniels said. "Part of my job is to help him get better by coaching him up."

Although Orton's contract has now expired, expect the Broncos to sign him to a new deal within the next two months.

"I think something's going to be worked out," Orton said.

At the very least, Orton can be brought back on a one-year, $3.043 million contract as a restricted free agent. Most likely, though, the Broncos and Orton will try to reach accord on a multiyear contract that approaches the deals of other established QBs.

"I was proud to have the opportunity to coach him this year and look forward to moving forward with him," McDaniels said

bendog
01-06-2010, 10:05 AM
he's prolly better than Cassel, whom tiny wanted, and he's definitely better than Jamarcus. And he's lots cheaper than Lambchop would've been.

jhns
01-06-2010, 10:24 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14119470

Pat Bowlen wasn't smiling Sunday evening. No reason for that after his Broncos just topped off a 6-0 start with a devastating 2-8 finish.

But Bowlen walked away from his 26th season as the Broncos' owner with his usual quiet dignity. Bowlen knew his young coach, Josh McDan- iels, made a difficult decision when he decided to bench two of his best offensive players, Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, with the playoffs potentially at stake.

"Unfortunately, we lost this game, but I have no problems with the coach," Bowlen said as he left the home locker room at Invesco Field. "He's my coach."

McDaniels finished his first season as the Broncos' head coach with an 8-8 record. Kyle Orton finished his first season as the Broncos' quarterback with career highs of 3,802 yards passing and 21 touchdowns but also three interceptions in the final game.

As he walked to his car Sunday night, Bowlen stopped long enough to endorse McDaniels as his coach for the foreseeable future.

McDaniels said he can improve on his first-year work.

"I certainly can do a better job of what I do, and I'm not going to go into detail about this, that and the other," McDaniels said. "I'm looking forward to getting better in the offseason at what I do. And trying to improve our team in every way that I can."

One way, McDaniels said, is to help Orton become a better quarterback.

"This was his first season and he'll get better," McDaniels said. "Part of my job is to help him get better by coaching him up."

Although Orton's contract has now expired, expect the Broncos to sign him to a new deal within the next two months.

"I think something's going to be worked out," Orton said.

At the very least, Orton can be brought back on a one-year, $3.043 million contract as a restricted free agent. Most likely, though, the Broncos and Orton will try to reach accord on a multiyear contract that approaches the deals of other established QBs.

"I was proud to have the opportunity to coach him this year and look forward to moving forward with him," McDaniels said

Good, now look at his press conference from later in the day where he says Ortons job isn't a given. Show me what part of that says Orton is the starter next year. There is no question we should sign him. He would be a great backup or even short term answer while McD works up someone from the draft. This article doesn't say what they are thinking at all.

I like how you use this as proof of something though. Should I pull up some of last years end of season press conferences? We can see how much they say actually happens. Orton isn't undrr contract so our QBs are Simms and Branstater.

Why are you still here anyways? Do you think you can control what I post? Are you a mod now?

oubronco
01-06-2010, 10:27 AM
the question is Why are you still here this is a Broncos FAN forum

jhns
01-06-2010, 10:30 AM
the question is Why are you still here this is a Broncos FAN forum

Good one. You come with these lame arguments and now have to jump to the fan card? Did it take you long to think of that one?

HAT
10-05-2010, 09:51 AM
Time to eat some crow.......Clearly KO & JC are NOT "interchangeable".

Spider
10-05-2010, 12:01 PM
BTW, Cutler, starting his 2nd full season as a starter had the entire weight of the team on his shoulders. If Denver was going to win, he would have to play great, keep us in the game or win it at the end.

Orton had the entire weight of the team put on his shoulders how many times this year? Once? Against the Chiefs? How did that go for him?

Orton is the reason we got crushed at home against the Chiefs. McD finally took the restraints off and Orton threw 3 INT's, 2 for TD's against one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Bottom line is McDaniels knew this team was in trouble if we ever had to put the ball in Orton's hand and let him wing it down field, like Jay can. Jay can throw against any defense, at any time of the game. If you're down 21, he can bring you back.

Orton is gritty. Once the veil of the play-action is gone from his game, the team he's QB'ing is going to get killed.

Hilarious!

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:15 PM
Did you watch any of the games? Do you understand the game of football, or are you just dumb?

Ahhh... the beauty of the bumped thread.

BPC calling people "dumb" for questioning Quitler's "franchise QB" status and supporting Kyle Orton.

Just awesome.

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:16 PM
Hilarious!

"the veil of play-action."

LMMFAO!!!!

Good god, he's terrible.

bronco militia
10-05-2010, 12:19 PM
"He's being productive, but I tend to think about the quarterback relative to wins and losses, third down and red zone," McDaniel's said. "Yesterday, we weren't very good on third down, we weren't very good in the red zone and we lost the game

using Josh's QB scale from after the Colts game and apply it to the Titans game, Orton still has a ways to go.

10-10 as a starter.

TonyR
10-05-2010, 12:24 PM
BPC calling people "dumb" for questioning Quitler's "franchise QB" status and supporting Kyle Orton.

Just awesome.

He also has the Skins going to the Super Bowl. And he's been very quiet this week...

HAT
10-05-2010, 12:28 PM
"He's being productive, but I tend to think about the quarterback relative to wins and losses, third down and red zone," McDaniel's said. "Yesterday, we weren't very good on third down, we weren't very good in the red zone and we lost the game

using Josh's QB scale from after the Colts game and apply it to the Titans game, Orton still has a ways to go.

10-10 as a starter.

Agreed.

LRtagger
10-05-2010, 12:30 PM
10-10 as a starter.

10-9 as a starter.

bronco militia
10-05-2010, 12:41 PM
10-9 as a starter.

oh yeah, chris simms got one

but that didn't count in my book ;D

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
10-05-2010, 01:01 PM
for all the uber Orton lovers and anti tebows go to this amateurish link the guy who wrote it is aas idiotic as some people on the OM who are a bit on the extremist side .
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/481114-tim-tebow-was-a-mistake-with-kyle-orton-dominating-broncos-blew-draft-choice <---- tebow forgive him and his sins for he is a dumb azzz . ive got to stop readin that shiate . its making me want to go up in a clock tower and start shootin jk

LRtagger
10-05-2010, 03:43 PM
oh yeah, chris simms got one

but that didn't count in my book ;D

IMO it should actually be 10-8 since when Orton left the Washington game we were cruising until Orton left the game. Simms **** the bed.

broncocalijohn
10-05-2010, 11:44 PM
Ahhh... the beauty of the bumped thread.

BPC calling people "dumb" for questioning Quitler's "franchise QB" status and supporting Kyle Orton.

Just awesome.

BPC also stated in that bumped post that Cutler can play against any defense (Like the Giants) and get you back for the win if you are down by 21 points. Really? I like the bump not so much as the Orton failure but the Cutler apologies and straight out fabrication. He said this after the 2009 season and not before he sucked it out loud on the field.

broncocalijohn
10-05-2010, 11:46 PM
oh yeah, chris simms got one

but that didn't count in my book ;D

it never does when you have to lie. Keep fighting the fight with your buddy BPC and Jizz.

maven
11-28-2010, 05:11 PM
Orton ****ING SUCKS!

TheReverend
11-28-2010, 05:16 PM
Orton ****ING SUCKS!

lol

Garcia Bronco
11-28-2010, 05:17 PM
**** Orton. I will come off the top rope with the people's elbow on his chicken neck.

DarkHorse30
11-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Orton is fine. He needs a coach.

fontaine
11-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Orton is one of the few players that's actually playing with any kind of pride.

His only failing is that he can't put up 30+ points a game to overcome one of the most putrid defenses this franchise has ever had and some rookie playcalling by a fist pumping dumba$$.

rbackfactory80
11-28-2010, 05:24 PM
Hopefully Orton shines if he gets a chance.

colonelbeef
11-28-2010, 05:42 PM
BPC also stated in that bumped post that Cutler can play against any defense (Like the Giants) and get you back for the win if you are down by 21 points. Really? I like the bump not so much as the Orton failure but the Cutler apologies and straight out fabrication. He said this after the 2009 season and not before he sucked it out loud on the field.

Cutler can play against any defense.

WolfpackGuy
11-28-2010, 05:43 PM
Orton will do just enough to lose the game.

How many times have we seen this?

HAT
11-28-2010, 05:46 PM
Great bump....Premise is as true today as it was when I first posted this.

Interchangeable.

lostknight
11-28-2010, 06:28 PM
2 of the last 21 on 3rd down.

HAT
11-28-2010, 06:37 PM
2 of the last 21 on 3rd down.

Stop...Just stop. 3rd down % is a team stat, not a QB one.

But if you want to go there.....My premise still stands.

Denver Broncos: 35.8 3rd down %

Chicago Bears: 32.3 3rd down %

Interchangeable.

go_broncos
11-28-2010, 06:39 PM
Stop...Just stop. 3rd down % is a team stat, not a QB one.

But if you want to go there.....My premise still stands.

Denver Broncos: 35.8 3rd down %

Chicago Bears: 32.3 3rd down %

Interchangeable.

you are not smarter than Elway..

Beantown Bronco
11-28-2010, 07:16 PM
2 of the last 21 on 3rd down.

Context would be nice.

Like mentioning how penalties and runs for losses and unavoidable sacks making the average "to go" on 3rd down right around 10-12 yds. And he managed to connect on some nice passes, but the YAC just weren't there. That can be on the WRs and RBs you know if they can't break one tackle or don't get the blocks downfield. All outside the control of the QB.

TailgateNut
11-28-2010, 08:09 PM
Orton ****ING SUCKS!


Someone left the gate to the Moron Coral unlocked again.

TailgateNut
11-28-2010, 08:10 PM
Cutler can play against any defense.


**** ****ler!

BroncoSojia
11-28-2010, 08:13 PM
**** Orton. I will come off the top rope with the people's elbow on his chicken neck.

LOL LOL LOL

Wait... which Orton are you talking about?

uplink
11-28-2010, 10:34 PM
four guys are passing for +300 yards a game

P. Manning P. Rivers D. Brees K. Orton

Sir_Robin
11-29-2010, 07:23 AM
four guys are passing for +300 yards a game

P. Manning P. Rivers D. Brees K. Orton

3 of them are on teams with a winning record...

TonyR
11-29-2010, 07:41 AM
Unreal that some of you dopes want to blame Orton for this team's problems. Just a blatant and glaring lack of perspective and understanding. Orton isn't a great QB by any stretch but he is far from one of this team's larger problems.

orange crusher
12-05-2010, 02:20 PM
Orton flat out lost the game today. Hats off to the Champ and the rest of the defense and to Moreno and the running game.

DHallblows
12-05-2010, 02:56 PM
Hilarious! People here have just been dreaming of the day that Orton has a bad game so they can finally b**** about him. Finally happened, congrats. You guys are so cute...

Miss I.
12-05-2010, 03:06 PM
Hilarious! People here have just been dreaming of the day that Orton has a bad game so they can finally b**** about him. Finally happened, congrats. You guys are so cute...

I am not happy about his having a bad game. He has a bad game we lose and I don't like our team losing. I like Orton, but he did not play well today. Do I think this means we bench him? No. I don't. But I am still uncertain about his future with this franchise.

colonelbeef
12-05-2010, 03:10 PM
Hilarious! People here have just been dreaming of the day that Orton has a bad game so they can finally b**** about him. Finally happened, congrats. You guys are so cute...

totally dude, this is a dream come true. 3-9 in the worst division in football and no direction from the top down while Cutler and hillis shine elsewhere.

Somebody pinch me

colonelbeef
12-05-2010, 03:12 PM
**** ****ler!

Nope.

**** McDaniels, **** Joe Ellis, and **** Brian Xanders.

Worthless, all of them.

HAT
12-05-2010, 03:14 PM
Orton **** the bed today, no doubt about it. Thanks for the bump though. I'm proud of how right I was with the original premise.

broncswin
12-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Orton looked terrible today...it was like the guy lost all arm strength, he could'nt even throw a ten yard out above the ankles. The guy just doesn't have a winners toughness...his drive to win is non-existent when things go south...very dissapointed in him today

maven
12-23-2010, 12:24 AM
Yep, he's ****ING gone in the offseason. So long suck ass Orton! Peace! And get the **** out!

Bronco Yoda
12-23-2010, 04:20 AM
Nope.

**** McDaniels, **** Joe Ellis, and **** Brian Xanders.

Worthless, all of them.

I say we storm Dove Valley and take over :thumbsup:

BroncofanDK
10-27-2014, 04:16 AM
BTW, Cutler, starting his 2nd full season as a starter had the entire weight of the team on his shoulders. If Denver was going to win, he would have to play great, keep us in the game or win it at the end.

Orton had the entire weight of the team put on his shoulders how many times this year? Once? Against the Chiefs? How did that go for him?

Orton is the reason we got crushed at home against the Chiefs. McD finally took the restraints off and Orton threw 3 INT's, 2 for TD's against one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Bottom line is McDaniels knew this team was in trouble if we ever had to put the ball in Orton's hand and let him wing it down field, like Jay can. Jay can throw against any defense, at any time of the game. If you're down 21, he can bring you back.

Orton is gritty. Once the veil of the play-action is gone from his game, the team he's QB'ing is going to get killed.

This is surely one of the GEMS!

troya900
10-27-2014, 05:24 AM
We're so spoiled having manning. Its going to be very depressing once he's gone.

Bronco Rob
11-09-2014, 01:22 PM
Typical Orton. Moves the chains between the twentys and craps the bed in the redzone.






:thumbs:

Jason in LA
11-09-2014, 01:39 PM
Orton is as mediocre as they come. Not the worst QB ever, but certainly not any good. Put him on an average or below average team and he's not going to elevate anybody. Put him on a good team with a good defense and he'll manage the game to the point that it's not his fault if they win or lose. The players around him will win it without him getting in their way.

HAT
11-09-2014, 07:46 PM
I'm completely secure in saying that Jay is going to lead Chicago to some much better days in the future. Good luck to him.

Yes.....Good luck to him. Next year is his year!