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Denver724
01-04-2010, 07:17 AM
The struggles of Kyle Orton. He's proven this year he's a borderline starter, not a player a team can build a long future around.

Yikes. Mike Nolan's defense crumbled down the stretch in Denver.

Read more:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/03/mmqb/4.html#ixzz0benVVfO3

ant1999e
01-04-2010, 07:24 AM
Sorry. I don't blame Josh McDaniels for Tony Scheffler saying he can't wait for the season to end, and for questioning Brandon Marshall's hamstring injury when the MRI on it showed no damage.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/03/mmqb/4.html#ixzz0bepWP6Kr (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/03/mmqb/4.html#ixzz0bepWP6Kr)

BroncoInferno
01-04-2010, 07:25 AM
Also, this:

Sorry. I don't blame Josh McDaniels for Tony Scheffler saying he can't wait for the season to end, and for questioning Brandon Marshall's hamstring injury when the MRI on it showed no damage.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2010, 07:30 AM
On Orton: I am not against using a 1st rounder on a QB as long as that player is a significant upgrade. That means he must someone who can exceed 21 TDs 12 INTs and a winning record. Those guys don't grow on trees. Is anyone in this draft that type of upgrade? I like Bradford and Clausen the best, but Sam has durability questions and Clausen consistency and attitude questions. Will be interesting to see how McD handles the situation. There is little question that Orton will at least be brought back for another year.

TheReverend
01-04-2010, 08:37 AM
Also, this:

Sorry. I don't blame Josh McDaniels for Tony Scheffler saying he can't wait for the season to end, and for questioning Brandon Marshall's hamstring injury when the MRI on it showed no damage.

Oskie made a really good point in another thread:

McDaniels is the one who has all the injury details locked down so tightly this year (lower extremity, etc)... so how is every minute detail about Brandon's hamstring MRI completely public?

titan
01-04-2010, 08:42 AM
I like Peter King, but he was also the one who picked the Bears to be in the Super Bowl this year, and picked the Chiefs to be the surprise team in the AFC.

Give Orton a better running game and I think he still can be an effective NFL starter. That said I'm hoping McD grooms a young qb as the long term answer.

Cito Pelon
01-04-2010, 08:45 AM
Oskie made a really good point in another thread:

McDaniels is the one who has all the injury details locked down so tightly this year (lower extremity, etc)... so how is every minute detail about Brandon's hamstring MRI completely public?

Who made it public - marshall or McD?

Cito Pelon
01-04-2010, 08:46 AM
As for Orton, yeah, I guess one could say he's a borderline starter. Maybe with some more coaching he can be more productive. He's not complete crap.

Rigs11
01-04-2010, 09:22 AM
orton was throwing some pretty passes yesterday. yes i know he had some ints but we need to be more agressive throwing down field.the only way orton is going to get better is if mcd trusts him more.

bpc
01-04-2010, 09:41 AM
We all saw what happens when you unleash Kyle Orton yesterday, against a terrible defense. 1 TD, 3 INT's, 2 for TD's.

Fail.

We need another option. Orton will not lead us to a division title, much less a super bowl championship.

He is a fine gap player while we develop somebody this offseason, but he isn't worth a huge contract which he'll be pining for.

McDaniels should be in the office today breaking down film of Campbell and Kellen CLemens over the course of the last few years.

vancejohnson82
01-04-2010, 09:50 AM
We all saw what happens when you unleash Kyle Orton yesterday, against a terrible defense. 1 TD, 3 INT's, 2 for TD's.

Fail.

We need another option. Orton will not lead us to a division title, much less a super bowl championship.

He is a fine gap player while we develop somebody this offseason, but he isn't worth a huge contract which he'll be pining for.

McDaniels should be in the office today breaking down film of Campbell and Kellen CLemens over the course of the last few years.

Bringing in Kellen Clemens to compete with Kyle Orton would be like bringing in Keary Colbert to compete with Brandon Lloyd....

Rigs11
01-04-2010, 09:51 AM
We all saw what happens when you unleash Kyle Orton yesterday, against a terrible defense. 1 TD, 3 INT's, 2 for TD's.

Fail.

We need another option. Orton will not lead us to a division title, much less a super bowl championship.

He is a fine gap player while we develop somebody this offseason, but he isn't worth a huge contract which he'll be pining for.

McDaniels should be in the office today breaking down film of Campbell and Kellen CLemens over the course of the last few years.
yeah but we saw the same thing when shanny unleashed cutler:ints. yet cutler always gets the excuses from you guys.orton did throw for over 400 yards yesterday. i say let the guy throw more downfield.

colonelbeef
01-04-2010, 10:04 AM
yeah but we saw the same thing when shanny unleashed cutler:ints. yet cutler always gets the excuses from you guys.orton did throw for over 400 yards yesterday. i say let the guy throw more downfield.

Cutler is a far better player than Kyle Orton is.

Brett Favre threw 29 ints in 2005. Is Kyle Orton a better player than Brett Favre?

colonelbeef
01-04-2010, 10:05 AM
We all saw what happens when you unleash Kyle Orton yesterday, against a terrible defense. 1 TD, 3 INT's, 2 for TD's.

Fail.

We need another option. Orton will not lead us to a division title, much less a super bowl championship.

He is a fine gap player while we develop somebody this offseason, but he isn't worth a huge contract which he'll be pining for.

McDaniels should be in the office today breaking down film of Campbell and Kellen CLemens over the course of the last few years.

I'm with you RE: Jason Campbell, but Kellen Clemens is terrible, I have watched him firsthand.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2010, 10:07 AM
Cutler is a far better player than Kyle Orton is.

Brett Favre threw 29 ints in 2005. Is Kyle Orton a better player than Brett Favre?

Orton's a better player than John Elway to some of these jokers.

He has competitiveness and accountability.

colonelbeef
01-04-2010, 10:09 AM
Orton's a better player than John Elway to some of these jokers.

He has competitiveness and accountability.

Cutler played his ass off the last 2 games, making throw after throw that Orton couldn't make using Cutler on Madden.

Cutler will go on to have a successful career once they get some coaching and a few tackles on that team. Kyle Orton will be a journeyman borderline starter, right where he belongs.

Crushaholic
01-04-2010, 10:21 AM
Orton was not the problem. He proved he could throw the deep ball. Letting Charles run wild was the BIG problem...

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2010, 10:24 AM
Orton is what he is, an above average QB. He's not very mobile, but he can get the job done for the most part. You keep Orton unless you are getting a Top 10 QB to replace him (and Cutler was no Top 10 QB either).

Give me Logan Mankins, a new center and a healthy Harris.

TonyR
01-04-2010, 10:26 AM
Cutler played his ass off the last 2 games, making throw after throw...

In meaningless games. Limited pressure to win.

TonyR
01-04-2010, 10:28 AM
Cutler is a far better player than Kyle Orton is.


Far better talent? Yes. Far better player? Debatable.

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2010, 10:31 AM
In meaningless games. Limited pressure to win.

Jay Cutler - When you need the best just after you've been eliminated!

Broncos4tw
01-04-2010, 10:31 AM
Orton is just bad... I'm blown away how religiously some support the guy.

Cutler: look, he has a whiny attitude. So have many other good players, who have matured out of this, and ended up as solid assets for their team. Moss and even Marshall after the early fiasco, are proof a player can change their stripes. Once Cutler has matured, he'll just be good. Ints are the only thing holding him back. He is light-years above Orton as far as pure physical football skills go.

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2010, 10:37 AM
Orton is just bad...

Bad? Flag on the post - Irrational pessimism

336/541
3802
62.1%
7.03 YPA
21 TD
12 Int
86.8 Rating

He's not a Top 10 QB, but he's not bottom 10 either. He's somewhere around 12-15. He also compiled those stats with a zipper-finger the first few games.

Popps
01-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Once Cutler has matured, he'll just be good. Ints are the only thing holding him back. .

http://blog.mdwoptions.com/.a/6a00e55367a35388340120a5c822a4970c-800wi

Cito Pelon
01-04-2010, 10:47 AM
Orton is what he is, an above average QB. He's not very mobile, but he can get the job done for the most part. You keep Orton unless you are getting a Top 10 QB to replace him (and Cutler was no Top 10 QB either).

Give me Logan Mankins, a new center and a healthy Harris.

Orton's problems to me always stem from waiting just a heartbeat too long to deliver the ball on the longer routes. Also, I don't like his mechanics on the longer throws. He doesn't step into them like he should in order to get maximum velocity. Which goes in tune with delivering the ball too late.

Can that be corrected? Maybe. If not, Denver needs a better QB.

However, as you said, "You keep Orton unless you are getting a Top 10 QB to replace him."

The team has some tough choices to make at QB this offseason. Orton is pretty good, he's actually had a couple decent years back to back. I can see the reasoning behind calling Orton a "borderline starter", but that's about as far as I'll go for criticism. He's not total crap.

Rigs11
01-04-2010, 10:53 AM
Cutler is a far better player than Kyle Orton is.

Brett Favre threw 29 ints in 2005. Is Kyle Orton a better player than Brett Favre?
how many tds did favre throw in 2005?i'll tell you: 20tds and 29 ints.this year orton threw 21tds and 12 ints. So yeah orton was better this year than favre was in 2005.is he better than favre now? no. is he better than cutler? yes.cutler threw 27 tds but..wait for it.. 26 ints.

colonelbeef
01-04-2010, 11:04 AM
how many tds did favre throw in 2005?i'll tell you: 20tds and 29 ints.this year orton threw 21tds and 12 ints. So yeah orton was better this year than favre was in 2005.is he better than favre now? no. is he better than cutler? yes.cutler threw 27 tds but..wait for it.. 26 ints.

Let me help you out, seeing as how you are an infant with no understanding of the team concept.

Never in his career has Kyle Orton approached being even remotely in the same class as Brett Favre in regards to QB ability, play, or skill, and never will he be.

If you cannot understand this simple concept and think that INT's are the be all end all QB stat, I have a few interesting stats about Peyton Manning and John Elway that you should probably hear about before you make yourself look any more foolish on here.

Broncos4tw
01-04-2010, 11:49 AM
Stats for the most part, don't mean crap. How many of those yards were YAC for Orton? Considering how many screens and 3 yard passes he threw, quite a bit.

The "safe" int to TD ratio isn't as impressive when you realize it's because he is a turf magnet.

Stop throwing stats out as if it tells the whole story. How often have you seen Orton do any of these things.. things that to me, makes a QB stand out:

When under pressure, roll out of the pocket, and make something happen.
Throw the ball successfully (hell, at all), with a defender grabbing on to him.
Run for the first down. He fails to do this even if a broad open lane is open in front of him. I saw him do it ONCE in a dozen games.. ironically in a horrible losing effort against the Queefs.
Checkdown: He does this how often? Almost never. Perhaps that's why they have Marshall running so many short routes. It doesn't seem surprising to folks that only one other receiver had a receiving TD until the game against the Eagles? Further proved when Gaf had 11 receptions to the other receivers.. who had 1 each, by the half.
Audibles: hahaha - don't know if he isn't bright enough to read defenses to call one, I don't ever see him do it. Most he does is warn the line which guy is coming through.
Pocket Presense - Average to below average. He doesn't see guys coming, even if right in front of him sometimes.
Accuracy... is very low. He seems unable to lead the receiver. It's either behind them, or he throws a bullet they can't catch. Only reason he would do that is you don't have to lead as much, if you throw it faster. He is trying to work around his inability to lead, and the result is dropped passes. Yet people yell at our receivers for dropped balls, even though they had no issues with this under Cutler.
Shotgun: His playing from the shotgun is a WEAKNESS, not a strength. It was made clear in training camp he is "more comfortable" in the shotgun. i.e. he is less effective when doing a 3 or 5 step drop. This cuts down on the plays we can call.

And when you watch all these things as a whole, you realize why he is an average, to below-average QB. He'd be an excellent backup. I wouldn't mind if he was our backup, if we got a decent QB.

His throws into tight coverage are hardly a plus. He does not do this because he is a risk-taker. It's because he locks onto one receiver, and he gets the ball, hell or high water. Even if double teamed. Even if tripled, as Gaff was yesterday.. was a miracle he caught that pass at all.

You can spew stats out all day, but if you have a pair of eyes, and watch the QB play, and know a damn thing about football, you can see his weaknesses, and realize he is not the answer. Running game? You know WHY our running game disappeared? Because they can stack the line with Orton as the QB. And while I will give you that our line dissolved more often than it should later in the year, MANY solid QBs have no problems working around that. Players like Vick can throw repeatedly, on target, with a dude in their face. Ben can throw with two guys hanging off of him. Orton just collapses. i.e. turf magnet Orton.

broncocalijohn
01-04-2010, 11:53 AM
Jay Cutler - When you need the best just after you've been eliminated!

wish he had that type of attitude the last two games of last year.

TonyR
01-04-2010, 11:59 AM
wish he had that type of attitude the last two games of last year.

That's just it: those games counted.

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2010, 12:04 PM
wish he had that type of attitude the last two games of last year.

We weren't eliminated yet...

TheReverend
01-04-2010, 12:19 PM
Who made it public - marshall or McD?

Do you really have to ask this question?

One can benefit with public opinion, one can hurt his image and trade/contract value

Rigs11
01-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Let me help you out, seeing as how you are an infant with no understanding of the team concept.

Never in his career has Kyle Orton approached being even remotely in the same class as Brett Favre in regards to QB ability, play, or skill, and never will he be.

If you cannot understand this simple concept and think that INT's are the be all end all QB stat, I have a few interesting stats about Peyton Manning and John Elway that you should probably hear about before you make yourself look any more foolish on here.
ahh i knew youd start slinging insults sooner or later.my opinions are based on stats, yours are based on what? you brought up favre not me. you brought up 2005 not me. so you mean to tell me that favre was a better qb in 2005 than orton was this year? ok tough guy based on what?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-04-2010, 12:31 PM
Cutler played his ass off the last 2 games, making throw after throw that Orton couldn't make using Cutler on Madden.

Cutler will go on to have a successful career once they get some coaching and a few tackles on that team. Kyle Orton will be a journeyman borderline starter, right where he belongs.

Cutler playing well with nothing on the line is nothing new.

Rigs11
01-04-2010, 12:39 PM
Stats for the most part, don't mean crap. How many of those yards were YAC for Orton? Considering how many screens and 3 yard passes he threw, quite a bit.

The "safe" int to TD ratio isn't as impressive when you realize it's because he is a turf magnet.

Stop throwing stats out as if it tells the whole story. How often have you seen Orton do any of these things.. things that to me, makes a QB stand out:

When under pressure, roll out of the pocket, and make something happen.
Throw the ball successfully (hell, at all), with a defender grabbing on to him.
Run for the first down. He fails to do this even if a broad open lane is open in front of him. I saw him do it ONCE in a dozen games.. ironically in a horrible losing effort against the Queefs.
Checkdown: He does this how often? Almost never. Perhaps that's why they have Marshall running so many short routes. It doesn't seem surprising to folks that only one other receiver had a receiving TD until the game against the Eagles? Further proved when Gaf had 11 receptions to the other receivers.. who had 1 each, by the half.
Audibles: hahaha - don't know if he isn't bright enough to read defenses to call one, I don't ever see him do it. Most he does is warn the line which guy is coming through.
Pocket Presense - Average to below average. He doesn't see guys coming, even if right in front of him sometimes.
Accuracy... is very low. He seems unable to lead the receiver. It's either behind them, or he throws a bullet they can't catch. Only reason he would do that is you don't have to lead as much, if you throw it faster. He is trying to work around his inability to lead, and the result is dropped passes. Yet people yell at our receivers for dropped balls, even though they had no issues with this under Cutler.
Shotgun: His playing from the shotgun is a WEAKNESS, not a strength. It was made clear in training camp he is "more comfortable" in the shotgun. i.e. he is less effective when doing a 3 or 5 step drop. This cuts down on the plays we can call.

And when you watch all these things as a whole, you realize why he is an average, to below-average QB. He'd be an excellent backup. I wouldn't mind if he was our backup, if we got a decent QB.

His throws into tight coverage are hardly a plus. He does not do this because he is a risk-taker. It's because he locks onto one receiver, and he gets the ball, hell or high water. Even if double teamed. Even if tripled, as Gaff was yesterday.. was a miracle he caught that pass at all.

You can spew stats out all day, but if you have a pair of eyes, and watch the QB play, and know a damn thing about football, you can see his weaknesses, and realize he is not the answer. Running game? You know WHY our running game disappeared? Because they can stack the line with Orton as the QB. And while I will give you that our line dissolved more often than it should later in the year, MANY solid QBs have no problems working around that. Players like Vick can throw repeatedly, on target, with a dude in their face. Ben can throw with two guys hanging off of him. Orton just collapses. i.e. turf magnet Orton.
ahh i see so stats only matter when youre defending baby Jay.well how many of his 4000 yards last year were after the catch yards?accuracy? good gawd Jay is not accurate and throwing into triple coverage? yep baby jay is great at that. oh i forgot stats don't matter.

bendog
01-04-2010, 01:31 PM
As for throwing a lot of picks
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

BroncoInferno
01-04-2010, 01:40 PM
As for throwing a lot of picks
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

Two different era. The year Elway threw 23 picks the league average per team with 22 picks. The average last season was 14. Offenses rely more heavily on safer, higher percentage throws than they did early in Elway's career. Notice the dramatic drop off in picks once Reeves was fired and Fassel and Shanny took over the offense. They brought higher percentage schemes with them. Throwing 26 picks in this era is ridiculous.

bendog
01-04-2010, 02:07 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2008/seasontype/2

rating qb's on the number of picks is as stupid as rating them on completion %. Your own post makes that point. Cutler was not in a low risk scheme in 2008, as Den had no running attack, nor was he in 2008. Rivers in 08 was off the charts. Was Chad Pennington better than Manning, Lambchop or even Romo? Not hardly.


btw, marino avged over a pick a game, and montana played in 192 games and threw over 130 picks. And as for "different eras" Payaton has played in 192 games and has tossed 180plus picks. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm

but I'm sure you'd argue orton is a better qb than cutler. carry on.

watermock
01-04-2010, 02:43 PM
John Elway, c'mon.

http://jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/brett-favre-vikings-315.jpg

barryr
01-04-2010, 04:05 PM
Orton was also playing against the Chiefs without his 2 top receivers, so some reality would be nice for Orton's bashers. Like I have stated before, he will never be accepted by the Cutler fans no matter what he does.