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Popps
01-03-2010, 11:46 PM
In 1994 - Denver went 7-9

Roster Turnover

From 1994 to 1995..

Offense: 6 of 11 starters replaced. (Over 50%)

Defense: 6 of 11 starters replaced (Over 50%)

Just a reminder that back in 1995, apparently Mike Shanahan wanted to go with his own guys, as well. Almost an identical number of starters turned over as we had this year.

Yet... I don't seem to recall anyone calling him Mike ShanaHitler.

Taco John
01-03-2010, 11:48 PM
And Shanahan immediately got to work firing and marginalizing everyone that Wade Phillips had drafted. All of them, bums!

Popps
01-03-2010, 11:49 PM
I saw someone on another thread make the statement that "one .500 season isn't any different from another." (Paraphrased)

I'd use the above data to challenge that notion.

Some people don't want any reason to remain patient. They have no interest. But, those on the fence who are taking a broader view of this all may recall that this season wasn't all together different from Shanahan's first year. There was not MASSIVE improvement during his first season. But, there WAS improvement if you were looking in the right places.

Popps
01-03-2010, 11:50 PM
And Shanahan immediately got to work firing and marginalizing everyone that Wade Phillips had drafted. All of them, bums!

Right.

Over 50% roster turnover.

But, as I said... coaches aren't generally replaced because they've built up such an awesome roster full of talent. They're replaced because they haven't.

Hence, Shanahan, like McDaniels turned over almost the entire coaching staff and over half of the roster.

Popps
01-03-2010, 11:52 PM
In fact, I need to check my math... but Shanahan put 12 new starters to work, and I believe that just might be the exact same number McDaniels has implemented.

bpc
01-03-2010, 11:53 PM
We destroyed the offensive foundation to ducktape our defense. Neither really has that strong of a future at this point and time. The offense lacks options at QB, WR, OL and TE. One could argue we need to add depth to our HB position as well.

The defense lacks any starting quality 3-4 linemen at this point, we probably need 2 new starters at MLB and opposite of Doom at OLB and the CB position is going to have major issues in just one season. Goodman is going to be 32 or 33 and Champ is a FA after the 2010 season.

Where are the answers? This doesn't even take into account that McD wants to sweep out more old regime guys to bring in his own boys.

He understands he is now down to 2 years on his three year deal? The sweeping changes he wants to make will be hard to come by with the labor agreement ready to hemorage after this season. He's screwed.

TheDave
01-03-2010, 11:55 PM
I don't get it... In your post shanahan improved on both offense and defense.

fast forward to today and we improved the defense yet regressed at all the important categories on O'...

Was this supposed to make me feel better?

Popps
01-03-2010, 11:57 PM
We destroyed the offensive foundation to ducktape our defense. Neither really has that strong of a future at this point and time. The offense lacks options at QB, WR, OL and TE. One could argue we need to add depth to our HB position as well.

The defense lacks any starting quality 3-4 linemen at this point, we probably need 2 new starters at MLB and opposite of Doom at OLB and the CB position is going to have major issues in just one season. Goodman is going to be 32 or 33 and Champ is a FA after the 2010 season.

Where are the answers?

The answers?

Add more guys that play better.

Just like Shanahan had to do. Look at the 1995 roster. It's distinctly different from the 97/98 rosters that won the SBs.

Guys missing?

Oh, you know... bit-player like Terrell Davis, Rod Smith, Neil Smith, Tony Jones, Bill Romanowski, Alfred Williams.

The answer?

Get better guys.

Exactly what the answer was for Mike Shanahan.

You didn't think Mike Shanahan built a team like that in one offseason, did you?

Taco John
01-03-2010, 11:57 PM
We destroyed the offensive foundation to ducktape our defense.


This is the best metaphor for how I feel about McDaniel's decisions. I've been trying to put my finger on it for some time now, but this summarizes it nicely.

A win against KC would have at least given me the solace that the players were there behind the guy, believing in him and what he's trying to do.

Man - those guys just didn't effing care.

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:00 AM
I don't get it... In your post shanahan improved on both offense and defense.

fast forward to today and we improved the defense yet regressed at all the important categories on O'...

Was this supposed to make me feel better?

Similar record, almost flat on offense and nice improvement on defense.

08 to 09?

Similar record. Down on offensive points, better on defense.


Not trying to make anyone "feel better," so much as bring a little sanity to an understandably insane board.

People sort of mentally re-write history over time. But, I remember that first season under Shanahan and it didn't all happen at once. He needed several seasons to amass the sort of talent needed to win a SB.

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:03 AM
Man - those guys just didn't effing care.

All perspective.

Looked to me like a team that needs better talent.

DJ Williams jogging and getting pancaked by a WR last year in game 16 looked like guys that didn't care.

Orton's INTs killed us today. But, a one dimensional team can't win playoff-style football games. They can't even win regular games.

People want this to be a pill they can swallow and it's just not that simple.


We lack the talent we need, Taco. We were in a 3 point game late in the third. We might have given into frustration after the INTs, but this is a talent issue, not a "care" issue.

But, that's my perspective.

bpc
01-04-2010, 12:08 AM
The answers?

Add more guys that play better.

Just like Shanahan had to do. Look at the 1995 roster. It's distinctly different from the 97/98 rosters that won the SBs.

Guys missing?

Oh, you know... bit-player like Terrell Davis, Rod Smith, Neil Smith, Tony Jones, Bill Romanowski, Alfred Williams.

The answer?

Get better guys.

Exactly what the answer was for Mike Shanahan.

You didn't think Mike Shanahan built a team like that in one offseason, did you?

You make it sound so easy. Why don't you give us an offseason plan or two which will put us back in play vs. being the laughing stock of the NFL right now?

Who's going to play QB for us? WR? Interior OL? DL/NT? CB? MLB?

Kyle Orton is not a logical answer either. For the 2nd time this year, McD's stepped out from protecting Orton and gave him the ball to wing it and he blew us up. Our defense sucked but was made worse when Orton threw 3 picks and two for TD's... those two to Derrick Johnson, who had all of 3 career INT's in 5 years. Kyle Orton can't read a defense, he can't move in the pocket, he doesn't have an arm to hit the sticks and his accuracy is all over the place.

We need a lot parts and have limited opportunities to land players. So where do you start? Obviously you think Orton isn't the problem despite sucking ass against the 4-11 chiefs. So what then?

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:15 AM
You make it sound so easy.

Are you kidding?

I'm not the one saying that if we just would have thought positive thoughts, we would have won today.

I think it's EXTREMELY difficult to build a proper franchise structure. Why do you think so few teams can do it?

You make it sound so easy. Why don't you give us an offseason plan or two which will put us back in play vs. being the laughing stock of the NFL right now?

We've got the entire off-season to discuss that, Chris.

But, the basis has to start with running the ball. It's not an IF... we WILL be featuring 2-3 new OL starters next season. Hopefully they can open holes for our backs.

Next, I'd try to add at least one our play-maker up front. I'd love to see us land Wilfork or Hampton if they land in FA. (Or Seymour.) I'd also like to see us draft another ILB... a true MLB. (Hammer.)

Watch DJ williams on Jamal Charles' TD run from the 10 yard line after Ayers' penalty. He's just a mess. People will fight me on this, and we have all off-season to do so, but every single long run we allow... go back and try to find him and ask yourself what he's doing.

QB? Well, that's tricky now, isn't it. You obviously go into the season with Orton as your starter unless someone else proves to be available. When we don't put him in throw-only mode, he's been effective. We need to be developing someone behind him, of course... and we also need to get a real back-up option.

Again, there's plenty of time to talk about it, but these are the issues that a coach has to face when he takes over a .500 team.

BroncoBuff
01-04-2010, 12:16 AM
Interesting parallels, but they're a lot more coincidental than they are predictive.

Taco John
01-04-2010, 12:16 AM
One thing is for sure, you're pretty amazing at spin. Of course, it gets you into trouble because you don't seem to have much concern for consistency with what you've said in the past. But nonetheless, masterful at spin.

Taco John
01-04-2010, 12:19 AM
I personally think we should revert to the ZBS, continue to build on this very successful scheme that more teams are moving towards, not less, and then focus on the defensive front 7 like we should have done last offseason.

Taco John
01-04-2010, 12:25 AM
It's funny to me that the new spin is "talent" issue when were talking about a team that started out 6-0, and is faced off against a 3 win team that we took to the wood shed and ran all over them just 4 games ago. Did they just lose all that talent along the way? What happened between last week and this week that a 3 win team was able to "out talent" us in a way that the Eagles couldn't manage?

It's funny to me the lengths that you'll go to deflect any amount of blame from Josh, throwing whoever you can find under the bus, and using whatever shred of spin you can knit up.

When we were 6-0, I don't remember reading a single complaint from you about the talent level that had been assembled. I remember people thinking it was a ridiculous idea that we wouldn't make the playoffs, and that the Chiefs were dung on the bottom of the NFL shoe who posed absolutely no threat to us, let alone at home.

Talk about talent all you want. That's an every year kind of discussion. Every team needs talent upgrades. Certainly a three win team does, let alone an 8 win team.

But there was some coaching that deserves a lot of scrutiny, and I suspect that Josh would be the first to admit it - in private.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-04-2010, 12:26 AM
A win against KC would have at least given me the solace that the players were there behind the guy, believing in him and what he's trying to do.

Man - those guys just didn't effing care.

Wow, really? I didn't see it that way at all. Gaffney was playing his ass off. Moreno slammed the ball down on the last play because he was frustrated.

He wouldn't have done that if he didn't care.

I think you're seeing what you want to see.

Taco John
01-04-2010, 12:29 AM
Wow, really? I didn't see it that way at all. Gaffney was playing his ass off. Moreno slammed the ball down on the last play because he was frustrated.

He wouldn't have done that if he didn't care.

I think you're seeing what you want to see.


I wasn't talking about Moreno or Gaffney. I was mostly talking about the guys who looked like they considered themselves bit players in the game plan, and the defense who flat quit.

bpc
01-04-2010, 12:30 AM
Moreno and Gaffney were about the only two guys that looked like they cared. The rest of the guys... errr...

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:35 AM
It's funny to me that the new spin is "talent" issue when were talking about a team that started out 6-0

You'll need to explain to me how thinking we're not talented enough is "spin."

I'm directly telling you that we have work to do. How is that "spin?"

I
It's funny to me the lengths that you'll go to deflect any amount of blame from Josh, throwing whoever you can find under the bus, and using whatever shred of spin you can knit up..

Taco, you can blame McDaniels all you want. I'm not deflecting anything. I'm not sure if he's done the right things or not. It's too early to make definitive judgments. Those are fools errands I'll leave to fools.

What I do know is, no matter what kind of positive thoughts we think, we need talent upgrades.

How is directly criticizing our talent level "spin?"

You seem to be a guy that needs a single person to pin everything on. Be it Brian Griese, Mike Shanahan, Jake Plummer Josh McDaniels.

Tell you what, Taco... look at that list above of the guys we added AFTER the 1995 season.

You add those guys to this team right now, and we ARE a playoff team... no matter WHO is coaching.

If you want to believe that we finished 8-8 because the player hate Josh McDaniels, have at it. To me, that's just juvenile. You're believing that because it makes you feel better about prior positions.

We were a slop team last year largely because most of the starters who left can't even find work, much less starting gigs.

We needed talent last year, we still need more talent this year.

Spin?

Try reality.

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:37 AM
I wasn't talking about Moreno or Gaffney. I was mostly talking about the guys who looked like they considered themselves bit players in the game plan, and the defense who flat quit.

The defense didn't quit until we had the two INTs for TDs.

At that point, the weight was too much.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-04-2010, 12:39 AM
I wasn't talking about Moreno or Gaffney. I was mostly talking about the guys who looked like they considered themselves bit players in the game plan, and the defense who flat quit.

Your defense looked gassed to me. I didn't think they quit. Why would a team quit with the playoffs on the line?

DBroncos4life
01-04-2010, 12:40 AM
Are you kidding?

I'm not the one saying that if we just would have thought positive thoughts, we would have won today.

I think it's EXTREMELY difficult to build a proper franchise structure. Why do you think so few teams can do it?



We've got the entire off-season to discuss that, Chris.

But, the basis has to start with running the ball. It's not an IF... we WILL be featuring 2-3 new OL starters next season. Hopefully they can open holes for our backs.

Next, I'd try to add at least one our play-maker up front. I'd love to see us land Wilfork or Hampton if they land in FA. (Or Seymour.) I'd also like to see us draft another ILB... a true MLB. (Hammer.)

Watch DJ williams on Jamal Charles' TD run from the 10 yard line after Ayers' penalty. He's just a mess. People will fight me on this, and we have all off-season to do so, but every single long run we allow... go back and try to find him and ask yourself what he's doing.

QB? Well, that's tricky now, isn't it. You obviously go into the season with Orton as your starter unless someone else proves to be available. When we don't put him in throw-only mode, he's been effective. We need to be developing someone behind him, of course... and we also need to get a real back-up option.

Again, there's plenty of time to talk about it, but these are the issues that a coach has to face when he takes over a .500 team.

What did he do besides get blocked by Branden Albert who was 5 yards down field blocking him? Ray Lewis will tell you its easier to do his job when O-linemen are not running free down field blocking him. Did you see Davis on that play? He looked lost. The highlight for that play starts at 1:25. I'm not sure how you can blame DJ for that play other then your agenda that you have against him.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010010312/2009/REG17/chiefs@broncos/recap#tab:watch

ScottXray
01-04-2010, 12:47 AM
The defense didn't quit until we had the two INTs for TDs.

At that point, the weight was too much.

You're right, but their " not quit" portion before then was pretty disheartening.
Maybe if the D had been able to get a 3 and out or even stop the Chiefs a few times the O wouldn't have been in throw every down mode for almost the entire game, and Orton wouldn't have thrown the two picks that killed us.
We never had a lead....the whole game.

Charles was ripping off huge chunks the entire game, not just the 4th quarter.

As you said we need line help ..on both sides of the ball. But the Defense was REALLY disappointing today.
Oh...and I agree abouit DJ...he looked lost out there most plays.

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:49 AM
What did he do besides get blocked by Branden Albert who was 5 yards down field blocking him? Ray Lewis will tell you its easier to do his job when O-linemen are not running free down field blocking him. Did you see Davis on that play? He looked lost. The highlight for that play starts at 1:25. I'm not sure how you can blame DJ for that play other then your agenda that you have against him.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010010312/2009/REG17/chiefs@broncos/recap#tab:watch

Davis may have been lost, as well.

I have no "agenda" against Williams. He's just problematic at times. This is far from the only example.

I like Davis to an extent, but we should still consider drafting ILB help.

DBroncos4life
01-04-2010, 12:55 AM
Davis may have been lost, as well.

I have no "agenda" against Williams. He's just problematic at times. This is far from the only example.

I like Davis to an extent, but we should still consider drafting ILB help.

Williams had a 300 pound man pushing him back to the goal line from the start of that play. It's called being blocked and it happens to that best LBs in a 3-4 if the three down linemen don't do their job's. There was NOTHING DJ could have done on that play other then know how to morph through a person. He wasn't lost or a mess he was just being blocked by a much bigger person. Hell there full back didn't have anyone to block because Davis took care of our own player.

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:57 AM
Yea, DJ tends to get overwhelmed. He's not a true MLB, so you can't blame him.

BroncoBuff
01-04-2010, 01:33 AM
Williams had a 300 pound man pushing him back to the goal line from the start of that play. It's called being blocked and it happens to that best LBs in a 3-4 if the three down linemen don't do their job's. There was NOTHING DJ could have done on that play other then know how to morph through a person. He wasn't lost or a mess he was just being blocked by a much bigger person. Hell there full back didn't have anyone to block because Davis took care of our own player.

I agree, guy had major momentum, and came off the line untouched (and yes he does have an anti-DJ agenda)

kappys
01-04-2010, 01:46 AM
We were a slop team last year largely because most of the starters who left can't even find work, much less starting gigs.

We needed talent last year, we still need more talent this year.

.

I for one don't see that we gave up that much. I mean really we lost Jay Cutler - who did little to prove himself this offseason. Otherwise we lost a lot of trash players.

I think the concerns are whats going to happen to Marshall + Sheffler and the other actually talented players we have on this team. Hard to say and I don't want to rush to snap judgements, we'll simply have to wait and see.

I think the bigger issue is that the players McD brought in - specifically the draft picks - just don't seem like great choices. Yes Im all for giving these rookies another season, but at the moment outside of McBath there isn't really a player thats impressed me. I think Knowshown will be allright but no star. So that leaves us with a lot of holes from last season and maybe some good backups in place this season that filled in as starters, but little hope on the horizon that the right players are here to fill in the gaps.

maher_tyler
01-04-2010, 03:10 AM
Similar record, almost flat on offense and nice improvement on defense.

08 to 09?

Similar record. Down on offensive points, better on defense.


Not trying to make anyone "feel better," so much as bring a little sanity to an understandably insane board.

People sort of mentally re-write history over time. But, I remember that first season under Shanahan and it didn't all happen at once. He needed several seasons to amass the sort of talent needed to win a SB.

Not to mention he had John Elway...McD has Kyle Orton...huge difference!!

Hulamau
01-04-2010, 05:07 AM
Moreno and Gaffney were about the only two guys that looked like they cared. The rest of the guys... errr...

And Orton played tough the whole game with the D giving up TD after TD and him having to try to come back each time with 3 of our top 6 WRs either injured or playing possum. Including the top two.

Not an easy task That first Pick 6 was all on Orton the second one was the kind of thing I've seen Elway and even the great Manning throw from time to time as well when they cant see the LB shaded behind a mass of teammates.

We were one dimensional by that point, Derrick J and the rest of the Chiefs D knew Kyle had to pass and he was perfectly positions to bait him into such a throw... it happens and I'm not as upset about that one as the first one which was a clear under throw.

A fair share of this defensive collapse was on DJ Williams last night. Granted the front three was asleep at the wheel on most of the long runs as well but DJ in particular looked clueless, slow, hesitant and late to the party on at least 5 significant runs including both TDs by Charles.

DJ is a guy that can play great for a game or two or even just parts of games and then inexplicably look befuddled and out of step and whiffing easy tackles.

He often has two or three nice plays and then a couple of critical lapses that wind up costing us big time. He builds up big STATS but also those stats tend to mask the terrible timing and impact of some of his mental lapses.

He also has been one constant in the last few years of the defensive late season collapses .. in fact the only real constant the last few years in the front seven and after watching him closely the last four or five games in particular, I can see why.

He tantalizes with big plays at times, and you can see him turn on and off his motor. But for all his tackles at the end of the year they is something missing there in swagger. moxie and consistent excellence you have to have in your stud linebacker.

By no means am I assigning sole balm to him for the huge rushing yardage against us lately at home, but he has had a fair contribution to each of those major breakdowns that cost us the playoffs as well.

Yesterday he was Jammal Charles biatch on too many plays and it hurt us big time. Also Andre Goodman whiffed on that last TD run by Charles as well.

Prediction ... how many teams do you think will be searching for a Chris Johnson/ Jamaal Charles type speedster/skat-back in the draft this year?!?!? ...Plenty

Popps
01-04-2010, 08:23 AM
Yea, Hulamau... I definitely think we'll need to improve team speed next year. Wouldn't mind trying to find a change of pace back in the middle rounds, and/or a return specialist.

KC did nothing but hand the ball to him, and throw it up in the air occasionally and let Chambers fight for the ball or draw a penalty.

Now that it's pretty clear Marshall will be replaced, I think part of our concentration obviously has to be on adding threats to the offense.

Still, just imagine if we could have sustained the running game yesterday. The passing game was fine. Might have been a different outcome.

oubronco
01-04-2010, 08:28 AM
Davis may have been lost, as well.

I have no "agenda" against Williams. He's just problematic at times. This is far from the only example.

I like Davis to an extent, but we should still consider drafting ILB help.

:spit: you have a problem with all the Shanny leftovers

missingnumber7
01-04-2010, 08:30 AM
Davis may have been lost, as well.

I have no "agenda" against Williams. He's just problematic at times. This is far from the only example.

I like Davis to an extent, but we should still consider drafting ILB help.

Go back and watch Davis...he guesses, he loses gap responsibility and he does this consistenly. Yes sometimes it leads to big plays in the backfield...but most of the time it leads to the type of days that Charles had.

And I'm with you on DJ. He's an excellent WLB in a 4-3 system. Why we ever let Ian Gold kick him out of his natural position is beyond me, but he has been screwed by never playing the same position for an extended period of time. I just hope we can get something worth while in return for him.

Popps
01-04-2010, 08:33 AM
:spit: you have a problem with all the Shanny leftovers

You haven't been on the board long, but I was a huge Shanahan fan and defended him around here for years. I'm also a fan of Clady, Royal and many other "Shanahan guys.".

I actuall like DJ as a person. I'm just not convinced he's a real inside lb.

titan
01-04-2010, 08:35 AM
I didn't check the records but this also has to be the only season where the Broncos beat all their AFC West rivals on the road, and lost to them at home.

MplsBronco
01-04-2010, 08:36 AM
I wasn't talking about Moreno or Gaffney. I was mostly talking about the guys who looked like they considered themselves bit players in the game plan, and the defense who flat quit.

But the team didn't quit last year at SD? 52-21, never in the game. But after that game, according to you, we were right on track in year 3 of a 5 year plan. I think I saw a thread yesterday with you spouting the same garbage about just needing to bridge a gap.

As Bob said, you are seeing what you want to see. Competitive losses on the road to tough Indy and Philly teams. Leading late against Oak only to give up last minute TD (last year lost to Oak 30-10 at home) and in an exciting game against the Chiefs late in the 3rd when the D is stopping no one. I didn't see a team quit yesterday. I saw a team pressing that is lacking talent, particularly along the front lines. McD had a vision for what he wants out of this team and is trying to intsill a different culture. It will take time.

MplsBronco
01-04-2010, 08:38 AM
Davis may have been lost, as well.

I have no "agenda" against Williams. He's just problematic at times. This is far from the only example.

I like Davis to an extent, but we should still consider drafting ILB help.

I've never seen DJ do the things Derrick Johnson did yesterday. DJ aint nothing special.

Gort
01-04-2010, 08:50 AM
This is the best metaphor for how I feel about McDaniel's decisions. I've been trying to put my finger on it for some time now, but this summarizes it nicely.

A win against KC would have at least given me the solace that the players were there behind the guy, believing in him and what he's trying to do.

Man - those guys just didn't effing care.

thank you! yesterday wasn't about some "pie in the sky" shot at the playoffs. yesterday was about winning your final game, at home against a division rival that you should beat, so that you have something positive to hang your hat on all offseason. going 9-7. winning the final game. etc.

and yet they couldn't get it done. ouch.

bendog
01-04-2010, 08:57 AM
And Shanahan immediately got to work firing and marginalizing everyone that Wade Phillips had drafted. All of them, bums!

Wade pretty much eschewed the draft. He gave up 2 no 1s for Zim, but hey I don't blame him. Interestingly, I knew one of those picks went for Todd Steussie, but the other may have been for a second tackle, the late Corey Stringer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_NFL_Draft

Wade brought in Habib too, as I recall. Ray Crockett came in 94

His only draft pick of note that I recall was Alan Aldridge, who was a good MLB on the 97 championship team.

Schlereth and Broderick Thompson came in 95. I don't recall if Wade had any part in that

oubronco
01-04-2010, 08:59 AM
This is the best metaphor for how I feel about McDaniel's decisions. I've been trying to put my finger on it for some time now, but this summarizes it nicely.

A win against KC would have at least given me the solace that the players were there behind the guy, believing in him and what he's trying to do.

Man - those guys just didn't effing care.

they didn't beat one team that they faced for a second time so to me it had more to it than caring

gyldenlove
01-04-2010, 09:08 AM
In 1994 - Denver went 7-9 under coach Wade Phillips who was fired after the season's end.

In 1995 - Mike Shanahan was hired as head coach.

IN 1995 the Broncos finished 8-8 in Mike Shanahan's first season, including losing 2 of the last three games.

1994 Data:

Scored 347 points (21.7/g), 10th of 28 in the NFL.
Allowed 396 points (24.8/g), 25th.
Differential of -49 points (-3.1/g), 20th.

1995 Data:

Scored 388 points (24.2/g), 9th of 30 in the NFL.
Allowed 345 points (21.6/g), 17th.
Differential of 43 points (2.7/g), 8th.

Roster Turnover

From 1994 to 1995..

Offense: 6 of 11 starters replaced. (Over 50%)

Defense: 6 of 11 starters replaced (Over 50%)

The thing you will notice there is that Shanahan improved the offense, which was his strength.

barryr
01-04-2010, 09:13 AM
I remember the Broncos having to win that last game at Oakland in Shanahan's first year to just get to 8-8.

The defense has improved, but has shown there is still more work left to do to get better and make stops when they need them.

Some just like to pin it all on the offense and Orton especially, but this defense hadn't actually been playing great lately.

DrFate
01-04-2010, 09:18 AM
It's funny to me that the new spin is "talent" issue when were talking about a team that started out 6-0, and is faced off against a 3 win team that we took to the wood shed and ran all over them just 4 games ago. Did they just lose all that talent along the way? What happened between last week and this week that a 3 win team was able to "out talent" us in a way that the Eagles couldn't manage?

It's funny to me the lengths that you'll go to deflect any amount of blame from Josh, throwing whoever you can find under the bus, and using whatever shred of spin you can knit up.



The justifications for 'why it isn't Josh's fault' changes often, Taco. No need for the facts to get in the way of these justifcations.

SureShot
01-04-2010, 09:21 AM
1995 last 10 games 5-5

2009 last 10 games 2-8

Popps I believe that your expectations were to see the team improve from week to week. What grade to you give this team and the coaching staff for this year?

Inkana7
01-04-2010, 09:53 AM
1995 last 10 games 5-5

2009 last 10 games 2-8

Popps I believe that your expectations were to see the team improve from week to week. What grade to you give this team and the coaching staff for this year?

We battled Indy and Philly and didn't get blown out against Oakland like last year. This team is so much better than last year's it's unreal. Last years team blew giant balls. **** that talentless sack of crap Shanny put on the field last year, and to think that what we saw last year was a "bridged gap" away from the AFC Championship is ****ing retarded. We sucked last year. We were better this year, except we played a lot tougher schedule.

This BS with Scheffler and Marshall just has you people clouded. They're douches who want no part in the BRONCOS. How is it that hard to see? Everything you say you justify by saying "grrr u kant trust McD! hez a liar!" even though Marshall or Scheffler haven't denied ANYTHING that has been said.

I feel good about next season from what I saw this one. Please, take a minute to think about last year's team. You honestly think that collection of talentless ego-driven retards was the seeds of something great? Give me a break. We actually have an identity now. We just lack talent. This isn't any new "spin" it's been evident since the first day of the McDaniels regime. When you bring in a new coach and replace what, 30? players, it's clear that you don't have a roster full of All-Pros. To go 8-8 with this schedule and with the players we have is special. Had we kept Shanahan and Cutler, we would have 5-7 wins this year, I'm sure of that.

Taco John
01-04-2010, 10:00 AM
We actually have an identity now.


Yeah, losing 8 of your last 10 games will do that to you. Let's hope we can shake the identity we have over the offseason and build a new one.

Inkana7
01-04-2010, 10:03 AM
Yeah, losing 8 of your last 10 games will do that to you. Let's hope we can shake the identity we have over the offseason and build a new one.

Right. Disregard the rest of the post and also ignore the fact that we do have a playing identity now. Unfortunately the losing down the stretch thing is something from Shanahan we haven't gotten rid of yet. Maybe if we bridged that gap we could have only blown a 2 game division lead with 2 to go, Taco!

Taco John
01-04-2010, 10:05 AM
I don't know what identity you think this team has, but I don't see it. If there's one thing I'd say it's that we DON'T have an identity, and that's half the problem. We seem to be in a space of limbo. We're not a power team, we're not a finesse team. We're just a glob of characters in a battle of egos with the coach. That will change for sure. People will be flushed.

But I see no "identity" that you speak of. That seems like projection to me.

gyldenlove
01-04-2010, 10:14 AM
And Orton played tough the whole game with the D giving up TD after TD and him having to try to come back each time with 3 of our top 6 WRs either injured or playing possum. Including the top two.

Not an easy task That first Pick 6 was all on Orton the second one was the kind of thing I've seen Elway and even the great Manning throw from time to time as well when they cant see the LB shaded behind a mass of teammates.

We were one dimensional by that point, Derrick J and the rest of the Chiefs D knew Kyle had to pass and he was perfectly positions to bait him into such a throw... it happens and I'm not as upset about that one as the first one which was a clear under throw.

A fair share of this defensive collapse was on DJ Williams last night. Granted the front three was asleep at the wheel on most of the long runs as well but DJ in particular looked clueless, slow, hesitant and late to the party on at least 5 significant runs including both TDs by Charles.

DJ is a guy that can play great for a game or two or even just parts of games and then inexplicably look befuddled and out of step and whiffing easy tackles.

He often has two or three nice plays and then a couple of critical lapses that wind up costing us big time. He builds up big STATS but also those stats tend to mask the terrible timing and impact of some of his mental lapses.

He also has been one constant in the last few years of the defensive late season collapses .. in fact the only real constant the last few years in the front seven and after watching him closely the last four or five games in particular, I can see why.

He tantalizes with big plays at times, and you can see him turn on and off his motor. But for all his tackles at the end of the year they is something missing there in swagger. moxie and consistent excellence you have to have in your stud linebacker.

By no means am I assigning sole balm to him for the huge rushing yardage against us lately at home, but he has had a fair contribution to each of those major breakdowns that cost us the playoffs as well.

Yesterday he was Jammal Charles biatch on too many plays and it hurt us big time. Also Andre Goodman whiffed on that last TD run by Charles as well.

Prediction ... how many teams do you think will be searching for a Chris Johnson/ Jamaal Charles type speedster/skat-back in the draft this year?!?!? ...Plenty

The reason Orton had to try to come back was that he kept throwing the ball to Kansas City. Take away the 14 points Orton spotted them and it is 1 score game, then we just have to score on one of the 3 drives we had that concluded with Orton throwing the ball away and considering all 3 turnovers happened on the KC half of the field that isn't impossible.

It was a 3 point game when Orton threw his first pick, a 6 point game when he threw his second. The first INT drive was a 1 play drive, but the drive before that one featured a 50/50 run pass split, so not onesided at all. The second drive featured an incomplete pass, an Orton scramble, 2 Moreno rushes and a long pass to Lloyd as well as the pick - that doesn't seem onesided to me and the 1 drive we had in between of significant yardage was 2 runs and 3 passes. Not onesided at all.

Popps
01-04-2010, 03:14 PM
The reason Orton had to try to come back was that he kept throwing the ball to Kansas City. Take away the 14 points Orton spotted them and it is 1 score game, then we just have to score on one of the 3 drives we had that concluded with Orton throwing the ball away and considering all 3 turnovers happened on the KC half of the field that isn't impossible.

It was a 3 point game when Orton threw his first pick, a 6 point game when he threw his second. The first INT drive was a 1 play drive, but the drive before that one featured a 50/50 run pass split, so not onesided at all. The second drive featured an incomplete pass, an Orton scramble, 2 Moreno rushes and a long pass to Lloyd as well as the pick - that doesn't seem onesided to me and the 1 drive we had in between of significant yardage was 2 runs and 3 passes. Not onesided at all.

You're still leaving a couple of key points out of your equation...

1. We couldn't run the ball. Hence, we only threw. Hence, KC had guys sitting in coverage, waiting to pick off the first poorly thrown ball. Orton finally threw a couple of bad ones, and a guy made two incredible plays.

2. Our defense didn't have its best day, either. We can't let KC come out and score at will like that. Not when we can't run the ball and control the clock. Then, we're trying to play track-meet with Kyle Orton as our QB, and that's not the kind of QB he is.

Look, Orton had a bad game. Or, two bad throws. If you want to blame a game on him this season, this... or the Steelers game is your best option.

But, you've also got to look at what led us to having to go pass-happy with a QB not necessarily geared towards throwing the ball for 440 yards. He's not P. Manning.