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Popps
01-03-2010, 06:05 PM
Obviously a very disappointing finish, regardless of what side of the fence you've been on this offseason.

Still, I wonder why it is that with the team's struggles this year... I wonder why the answer has continually been to try to pin it all on one player, on coach, one move... and not see the bigger picture?

We're just not that talented yet, folks. We were the WORST D IN FOOTBALL last year. Now, we're respectable, but we clearly still have work to do.

The offense? We need blockers and probably another play-maker, minimum.

We simply don't have all of the horses in place, yet. Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team. But, we're not there yet... and did anyone think that would happen in a single season?

This isn't an "everything's fine" thread, it's just a thought that doesn't seem to get much play around here.

Orton had a bad game, but we had to play one-dimensional football. (For instance.) We can't win like that with Kyle Orton. Probably can't with any QB.

We have work to do. Personally, this was a very disturbing final game for me... but I still see a foundation in place that looks better than last season.
But, that's just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?

Archer81
01-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Obviously a very disappointing finish, regardless of what side of the fence you've been on this offseason.

Still, I wonder why it is that with the team's struggles this year... I wonder why the answer has continually been to try to pin it all on one player, on coach, one move... and not see the bigger picture?

We're just not that talented yet, folks. We were the WORST D IN FOOTBALL last year. Now, we're respectable, but we clearly still have work to do.

The offense? We need blockers and probably another play-maker, minimum.

We simply don't have all of the horses in place, yet. Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team. But, we're not there yet... and did anyone think that would happen in a single season?

This isn't an "everything's fine" thread, it's just a thought that doesn't seem to get much play around here.

Orton had a bad game, but we had to play one-dimensional football. (For instance.) We can't win like that with Kyle Orton. Probably can't with any QB.

We have work to do. Personally, this was a very disturbing final game for me... but I still see a foundation in place that looks better than last season.
But, that's just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?


+1.

:Broncos:

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:08 PM
As miserable as today was... the one thing that keeps my football spirits from killing themselves is that I'm out of my brain stoked about the possibilities this off-season via the draft and FA. Tons of options out there, and we're in a great position to make major strides.

It ****ing sucks that it's the offseason for us, but at least it's an offseason that should bring some very positive things to this team, imo.

SureShot
01-03-2010, 06:10 PM
If a team is good enough to go 6-0 they are good enough to make the playoffs.

colorado jones
01-03-2010, 06:10 PM
Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team.

Agree that it can't be pinned on any on player, coach, etc....but how can you feel like above?

DBroncos4life
01-03-2010, 06:11 PM
Popps its been this way since Elway has left. Griese, Plummer, Cutler and soon Orton. How many coaches have we fired because they where the reason for the let down? You can't keep having roster and coaching turnover like we do and think things will just fall into place. For every bad player and coach we run out one year more pop up the next.

TonyR
01-03-2010, 06:11 PM
Yep, for some reason in the second half of the season we couldn't run the football and couldn't consistently stop the run. Lack of talent up front on both sides of the football. And too hard of a schedule. Hard to figure out why we gave Indy and Philly good games on the road but couldn't beat Oak and KC at home.

Lots of work to do still. The 6-0 start made us think the job magically got done in one offseason. It didn't. Clearly.

DenverBrit
01-03-2010, 06:11 PM
Obviously a very disappointing finish, regardless of what side of the fence you've been on this offseason.

Still, I wonder why it is that with the team's struggles this year... I wonder why the answer has continually been to try to pin it all on one player, on coach, one move... and not see the bigger picture?

We're just not that talented yet, folks. We were the WORST D IN FOOTBALL last year. Now, we're respectable, but we clearly still have work to do.

The offense? We need blockers and probably another play-maker, minimum.

We simply don't have all of the horses in place, yet. Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team. But, we're not there yet... and did anyone think that would happen in a single season?

This isn't an "everything's fine" thread, it's just a thought that doesn't seem to get much play around here.

Orton had a bad game, but we had to play one-dimensional football. (For instance.) We can't win like that with Kyle Orton. Probably can't with any QB.

We have work to do. Personally, this was a very disturbing final game for me... but I still see a foundation in place that looks better than last season.
But, that's just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?


Good post, Popps.

It seems to be difficult for a lot of people to understand that the team was in rebuilding mode the moment Shanny was fired.

One down, two to go.

garandman
01-03-2010, 06:11 PM
Very nice positive thread.. That being said, do you not worry that we haven't hurt our chances at landing free agents based on McD's deserved reputation? Which to say the least is not very appealing to play for..

TheReverend
01-03-2010, 06:12 PM
Oh, God, you're such a weasel...

scttgrd
01-03-2010, 06:12 PM
How about doing what you said you could do? Fix the issues on offense instead of bubble screen left, bubble screen right. Talk about a letdown. This guy made things worse, and pissed off half the fanbase and caused another late season collapse. I'm guessing Marshall, Sheffler and Hillis were the problem huh? Where were Ayers, Smith and Moreno? Better hope for the CBA to not get done or alot of guys walk for nothing. Great job McDaniels!

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:13 PM
If a team is good enough to go 6-0 they are good enough to make the playoffs.

Apparently not... particularly when you play 2 games without your QB, and the 2nd half of your schedule against brutal competition. (And yes, Oakland and KC are always going to be dangerous.)

But, you're sort of just cementing my point... we just need more talent.

Even if we sneaked into the playoffs (which I would have loved)... we weren't winning it all. Everyone knows that.

So, what's the answer?

We need more guys that play better. It's just not that complicated, and it's certainly not a scenario where blaming one guy is the answer.

For example, even those who hate Orton may be right... but we'll still need to make many more moves to accommodate ANY QB having success in this offense.

We couldn't run today... and we couldn't stop the run.

Is that a playoff team?


I get it, people are mad. I'm mad.

Get more guys that play better.

DenverBrit
01-03-2010, 06:13 PM
Oh, God, you're such a weasel...

And so it begins. Ha!

frerottenextelway
01-03-2010, 06:13 PM
There's no sugarcoating it. Orton stunk, most of the rest of the offense stunk with him, the defense stunk, the off-field coaching stunk, and the gameday coaching stunk. Berger and Prater played well.

Just a game though, life goes on. It is what it is.

snowspot66
01-03-2010, 06:13 PM
Agree that it can't be pinned on any on player, coach, etc....but how can you feel like above?

Did you miss the Colts and Eagles game? Did you not see us still in the game late against the Ravens and Steelers despite being manhandled on the lines?

strafen
01-03-2010, 06:14 PM
We've got the players, we've got the talent, we just didn't use them as we should.
End of story...

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:15 PM
Oh, God, you're such a weasel...

Just good to see you again, buddy. That long hiatus during our winning streak worried me.

Looks like this should be a fruitful offseason for you. You got a nice start with the Orton bash thread before the game today.

To the victor go the spoils.

Enjoy the offseason.

gyldenlove
01-03-2010, 06:16 PM
Obviously a very disappointing finish, regardless of what side of the fence you've been on this offseason.

Still, I wonder why it is that with the team's struggles this year... I wonder why the answer has continually been to try to pin it all on one player, on coach, one move... and not see the bigger picture?

We're just not that talented yet, folks. We were the WORST D IN FOOTBALL last year. Now, we're respectable, but we clearly still have work to do.

The offense? We need blockers and probably another play-maker, minimum.

We simply don't have all of the horses in place, yet. Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team. But, we're not there yet... and did anyone think that would happen in a single season?

This isn't an "everything's fine" thread, it's just a thought that doesn't seem to get much play around here.

Orton had a bad game, but we had to play one-dimensional football. (For instance.) We can't win like that with Kyle Orton. Probably can't with any QB.

We have work to do. Personally, this was a very disturbing final game for me... but I still see a foundation in place that looks better than last season.
But, that's just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?

You can put on the shades all you want, but blaming it on blockers?

We had the best offensive line in franchise history last year statistically, I know we had an injury to Harris, but that isn't something that should mess up the whole line that much. If the blocking is really that much of a problem this year compared to last, the problem is not the players, it is the people who are asking too much of the players.

Playmakers? Mcdaniels had a pro bowl WR but for reasons as of yet unknown he chose to sit him in the most important game of the year. Do we need another playmaker? no we just need a coach who will use the playmakers we have.

So Orton is Peyton Manning now is he? Do you think we could have won this game with Peyton Manning instead of Orton? how about Brees? Schaub? Brady? Mcnabb? Rivers? Could any of those guys have won it? I think they could, and I certainly think they could have won the Raiders game. Orton is no star, he is not even a good QB, he is very average, in fact he may be below average, only 1 win this year did the opposition score more than 20 points and in half the wins did they not even each double digits.

Last year we on 3 games when the opponents scored more than 20 and we had no games in which the opponents scored less than 10.

Miami took 1 offseason to go from 1 win to 11, we took 1 offseason to go from 8 wins to 8 wins. At this trend guess how many games we will win next year? 8.

I know you are hurting, we all are, but this unwillingness to face facts and accept that despite all the accountability talk there will be no accountability, there will be only those who are with Mcdaniels and they will remain Broncos and those are not with Mcdaniels and they will go elsewhere.

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:16 PM
We've got the players, we've got the talent, we just didn't use them as we should.
End of story...

Really?

But, you're the guy telling me that Orton and most of the rest of our guys are garbage.

Now, we've' got all the talent we need?


You'd better sort that out and get back to us.

DrFate
01-03-2010, 06:16 PM
After the 08 collapse I felt the team was on the right path. The team needed a run game and plenty of defensive help, but had some 'hard to find' players in the right place.

After the 09 collapse, I don't feel that way. This team has taken a major step backwards. Most likely we go into '10 without a solid player at any skill position on offense and the defense, when the money is on the table, isn't really any better.

I felt the 08 time was on the rise. I feel the 09 time is on the decline.

And all hand waving aside - it starts at the top.

SureShot
01-03-2010, 06:16 PM
Apparently not... particularly when you play 2 games without your QB, and the 2nd half of your schedule against brutal competition. (And yes, Oakland and KC are always going to be dangerous.)

But, you're sort of just cementing my point... we just need more talent.

Even if we sneaked into the playoffs (which I would have loved)... we weren't winning it all. Everyone knows that.

So, what's the answer?

We need more guys that play better. It's just not that complicated, and it's certainly not a scenario where blaming one guy is the answer.

For example, even those who hate Orton may be right... but we'll still need to make many more moves to accommodate ANY QB having success in this offense.

We couldn't run today... and we couldn't stop the run.

Is that a playoff team?


I get it, people are mad. I'm mad.

Get more guys that play better.

Sorry there is no excuse 2-8. Hell the Browns just won 4 in a row do they have more talent?

True rivalry games are always close but if losing at home to the Raiders wasnt acceptable for Shannahan it shouldnt be for McD either.

snowspot66
01-03-2010, 06:17 PM
We've got the players, we've got the talent, we just didn't use them as we should.
End of story...

That's why we made the playoffs the three previous seasons and led the league in scoring and had a bitching defense right?

Right?

extralife
01-03-2010, 06:19 PM
OThis isn't an "everything's fine" thread--oh wait, yes it is, because I have this freakish obsession with pretending I work as McDaniel's PR assistant and I've made one of these threads every week for the last two and a half months. WE CAN BUILD ON THIS!!!

fixed

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:19 PM
Good post, Popps.

It seems to be difficult for a lot of people to understand that the team was in rebuilding mode the moment Shanny was fired.

One down, two to go.

It's been one of the harder things for me to figure out all offseason, why people refuse to believe we need better players.

Coming off the disaster last season was, suddenly... we were supposed to have a SB caliber roster?

I actually think we're a much better team. But, I also understand if people disagree.

EITHER WAY, we need more dudes that play better football.

EVEN WITH A DIFFERENT COACH... we need to improve talent.

I think we went a long way towards doing that, but we still have much work to do.

Stormontheplains
01-03-2010, 06:19 PM
Really?

But, you're the guy telling me that Orton and most of the rest of our guys are garbage.

Now, we've' got all the talent we need?


You'd better sort that out and get back to us.


Talent is a word that will not be associated with the broncos, The head coach can not handle them. Good luck with that

colorado jones
01-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Did you miss the Colts and Eagles game? Did you not see us still in the game late against the Ravens and Steelers despite being manhandled on the lines?

I watched every game this season....I just don't agree that we are a couple of players away from being a dangerous team.

TheReverend
01-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Just good to see you again, buddy. That long hiatus during our winning streak worried me.

Looks like this should be a fruitful offseason for you. You got a nice start with the Orton bash thread before the game today.

To the victor go the spoils.

Enjoy the offseason.

Hiatus was moving during our losing streak. Look it up.

Way to sell out all your own ideals:

Building back to front, fading down the stretch, dropping 3+ game leads, etc.

But hey, at least you're not now spreading blame after years of being THE guy that wanted to find one martyr to crucify.

You are a human being with no spine in your beliefs and deserve no respect.

DrFate
01-03-2010, 06:21 PM
It seems to be difficult for a lot of people to understand that the team was in rebuilding mode the moment Shanny was fired.

Did you REALLY feel that way the day McDaniels was introduced? Did anyone TRULY feel that this was a REBUILD, where the next two or three seasons are a wash simply to start again? I know people are singing that song now - but where were the posts in say, April, that McDaniels was brought in for a complete blow-up of this team?

Was this team a rebuild the day before Shanahan was fired? That's what aggravates me the most. The team was 8-8, had a late season collapse - and seemed to be moving in the right direction.

And now people are saying 'we knew this was a rebuild'.


Huh?

NYBronco
01-03-2010, 06:21 PM
If a team is good enough to go 6-0 they are good enough to make the playoffs.

If a team is good enough to win the previous years SB title they should be good enough to get into the playoffs and defend it the following year.

Broncoman13
01-03-2010, 06:22 PM
Obviously a very disappointing finish, regardless of what side of the fence you've been on this offseason.

Still, I wonder why it is that with the team's struggles this year... I wonder why the answer has continually been to try to pin it all on one player, on coach, one move... and not see the bigger picture?

We're just not that talented yet, folks. We were the WORST D IN FOOTBALL last year. Now, we're respectable, but we clearly still have work to do.

The offense? We need blockers and probably another play-maker, minimum.

We simply don't have all of the horses in place, yet. Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team. But, we're not there yet... and did anyone think that would happen in a single season?

This isn't an "everything's fine" thread, it's just a thought that doesn't seem to get much play around here.

Orton had a bad game, but we had to play one-dimensional football. (For instance.) We can't win like that with Kyle Orton. Probably can't with any QB.

We have work to do. Personally, this was a very disturbing final game for me... but I still see a foundation in place that looks better than last season.
But, that's just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?


I agree, we need more talent to compete. I am very concerned with that though, mainly b/c talented players have a personal need to be treated and paid as though they are just that. Eddie Royal is a talented player and he's been useless to this team. Ask yourself this question Popps, how many free agents are going to want to play for Denver knowing that McD will not allow them to be superstars. There is a lot going on right now, not sure what will come in the coming weeks. Going to be a helluva ride though.

Go Broncos.

SureShot
01-03-2010, 06:23 PM
If a team is good enough to win the previous years SB title they should be good enough to get into the playoffs and defend it the following year.

So you agree its on the coaches right?

extralife
01-03-2010, 06:23 PM
If a team is good enough to win the previous years SB title they should be good enough to get into the playoffs and defend it the following year.

wow, did you really just do this?

I wasn't aware we took six months off after week 6.

snowspot66
01-03-2010, 06:24 PM
I watched every game this season....I just don't agree that we are a couple of players away from being a dangerous team.

Well I think giving multiple playoff teams and Super Bowl contenders a run for their money qualifies a team as dangerous.

strafen
01-03-2010, 06:26 PM
That's why we made the playoffs the three previous seasons and led the league in scoring and had a b****ing defense right?

Right?

Last year defense?
What defense?
That's what we needed to fix this year, and we did it by implementing a new system, but zero infusion of talent.
On the other hand, the offense this year, had plenty of under-utilized talent, that could've made us better in a lot of critical situations.
Stokley just to give you an example. He saw a limited role this year, despite all of that, the guy ended the season with 4 TD's 327 yards on 19 receptions in 8 games. Unexcusable!

Archer81
01-03-2010, 06:26 PM
Well I think giving multiple playoff teams and Super Bowl contenders a run for their money qualifies a team as dangerous.


HOMER! YOU MUST BASH THE TEAM!

In reality yes, you are 100% right.

:Broncos:

TonyR
01-03-2010, 06:27 PM
...blaming it on blockers?

We had the best offensive line in franchise history last year statistically, I know we had an injury to Harris, but that isn't something that should mess up the whole line that much. If the blocking is really that much of a problem this year compared to last, the problem is not the players, it is the people who are asking too much of the players.


The O-line struggled in the running game in the second half of the season. And "struggled" might be too kind. The last few weeks their were defensive players in the backfield on almost every running play. Until we fix that this offense will fail.

NYBronco
01-03-2010, 06:28 PM
So you agree its on the coaches right?

I agree that a well established and consistent organization should make a better showing then what the Steelers have done this year.

Gort
01-03-2010, 06:29 PM
I watched every game this season....I just don't agree that we are a couple of players away from being a dangerous team.

there's no team in the league that is afraid to play Denver. none. nada. zilch. Denver has the reputation of a soft, weak-hearted team. starts fast. fades at the end of the year. in fact, if Denver had made the playoffs, Denver was the 1 team that every other playoff team would want to play. this needs to be fixed. oh, and once again, Denver goes 4-4 at home. there is no home field advantage anymore. that bothers me as much as anything else wrong with this franchise.

SureShot
01-03-2010, 06:30 PM
I agree that a well established and consistent organization should make a better showing then what the Steelers have done this year.

Its tough when you lose your best player but hey when you lose to the chefs and raidrs what do you expect. Either way I dont give two ****s about the Steelers or how they perform, the Broncos on the other hand......

snowspot66
01-03-2010, 06:31 PM
Last year defense?
What defense?
This is what we needed to fix this year, and we did by implementing a new system, but nzero infusion of talent.
On the other hand, the offense this year, had plenty of under-utilized talent, that could've made us better in a lot of critical situations.
Stokley just to give you an example. He saw a limited role this year, despite all of that, the guy ended the season with 4 TD's 327 yards on 19 receptions in 8 games. Unexcusable!

You made the claim that we have the talent. Well that talent did **** for us last year. It didn't do anything for us this year. No playoffs.

ScottXray
01-03-2010, 06:37 PM
It's been one of the harder things for me to figure out all offseason, why people refuse to believe we need better players.

Coming off the disaster last season was, suddenly... we were supposed to have a SB caliber roster?

I actually think we're a much better team. But, I also understand if people disagree.

EITHER WAY, we need more dudes that play better football.

EVEN WITH A DIFFERENT COACH... we need to improve talent.

I think we went a long way towards doing that, but we still have much work to do.

I mainly agree with you Popps. Our talent is sub par.

But I also am disappointed in how the team responded at the end of the year, and at least some of that goes back to coaching. We threw the ball downfield ALL day today. Yes, Orton got picked a few times to seal our fate, but where was that downfield attack before today? We haven't been able to run effectively pretty much since the bye, and could have used it before this game.

Our Defense got Manhandled today by a team that looks to be improving, and we lost CLOSE games the two weeks before this one. The point is, we still lost, and two of those were to division opponents, in our house. Somehow those teams were motivated enough , and somehow we weren't.

McD will get 2 more years, and he looks like he will have the draft and FA tools he needs to get the job done. If he doesn't then it will be on him alone.

He needs to make the right choices this off season.

I have supported him before now, and I will continue to, but the leash has got to be a little shorter.....and he had better start getting better results next year. He'll have had another off season to add players and another camp to get his system in place. The offense needs to be consistently better next year or the criticism will be more justified..

ColoradoBuff
01-03-2010, 06:38 PM
First team since 2003 to go 6-0 and not make the playoffs.

NYBronco
01-03-2010, 06:38 PM
Its tough when you lose your best player but hey when you lose to the chefs and raidrs what do you expect. Either way I dont give two ****s about the Steelers or how they perform, the Broncos on the other hand......

Its perspective...

McD in his first year vs. Tomlin in a well established system/organization. A 2009 SB Championship team to build on.

BTW... the best player chose his own path.

colorado jones
01-03-2010, 06:39 PM
Well I think giving multiple playoff teams and Super Bowl contenders a run for their money qualifies a team as dangerous.

Fair point...but losing to the Raiders and the Chiefs at home hardly defines a dangerous team.

Also, every time we get stuffed on a short yardage play, I definitely don't feel very dangerous.

SureShot
01-03-2010, 06:39 PM
BTW... the best player chose his own path.

I was refering to Polamalu.

Steve Prefontaine
01-03-2010, 06:41 PM
Apparently not... particularly when you play 2 games without your QB, and the 2nd half of your schedule against brutal competition. (And yes, Oakland and KC are always going to be dangerous.)

That is complete ****ing bull****. It's hilarious that the 7-9 Bills team last year was a "joke", but the Raiders and KC at home are dangerous.

strafen
01-03-2010, 06:41 PM
You made the claim that we have the talent. Well that talent did **** for us last year. It didn't do anything for us this year. No playoffs.If you don't put the talent on the field, you're not going to win. That's basically what I've said...

colorado jones
01-03-2010, 06:41 PM
. We threw the ball downfield ALL day today.


Before the wheels came off today, I saw a stat where Orton had 7 plays of 20+ yards (4 to Gaffney).

extralife
01-03-2010, 06:43 PM
Before the wheels came off today, I saw a stat where Orton had 7 plays of 20+ yards (4 to Gaffney).

yes, I was pretty pumped about this.

then, you know, we got blown out by the chiefs.

broncosteven
01-03-2010, 06:43 PM
i watched every game this season....i just don't agree that we are a couple of players away from being a dangerous team.

rep.

You need to post more.

broncosteven
01-03-2010, 06:44 PM
Did you REALLY feel that way the day McDaniels was introduced? Did anyone TRULY feel that this was a REBUILD, where the next two or three seasons are a wash simply to start again? I know people are singing that song now - but where were the posts in say, April, that McDaniels was brought in for a complete blow-up of this team?

Was this team a rebuild the day before Shanahan was fired? That's what aggravates me the most. The team was 8-8, had a late season collapse - and seemed to be moving in the right direction.

And now people are saying 'we knew this was a rebuild'.


Huh?

More REP

DenverBrit
01-03-2010, 06:45 PM
Did you REALLY feel that way the day McDaniels was introduced? Did anyone TRULY feel that this was a REBUILD, where the next two or three seasons are a wash simply to start again? I know people are singing that song now - but where were the posts in say, April, that McDaniels was brought in for a complete blow-up of this team?

Was this team a rebuild the day before Shanahan was fired? That's what aggravates me the most. The team was 8-8, had a late season collapse - and seemed to be moving in the right direction.

And now people are saying 'we knew this was a rebuild'.


Huh?

I've been saying the same thing since TC.

So yes, I 'TRULY' believed the team was going into re-build mode and needed to.

broncosteven
01-03-2010, 06:46 PM
That is complete ****ing bull****. It's hilarious that the 7-9 Bills team last year was a "joke", but the Raiders and KC at home are dangerous.

Even more REP, is this possible?

DenverBrit
01-03-2010, 06:46 PM
First team since 2003 to go 6-0 and not make the playoffs.

Last years' team was the first to blow a 3 game div lead with three games to go.

snowspot66
01-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Fair point...but losing to the Raiders and the Chiefs at home hardly defines a dangerous team.

Also, every time we get stuffed on a short yardage play, I definitely don't feel very dangerous.

We haven't been able to do that in ages. It's depressing.

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Did anyone feel this was a rebuild?

I don't know.

What do you usually do when you have the last ranked D, the 16th ranked O... and fire your coach?

Expect the SB the next season, or rebuild?


We replaced almost all coaches, and a huge portion of the players... and both systems.

Explain to me what that is, if not a rebuild?

ScottXray
01-03-2010, 06:50 PM
Before the wheels came off today, I saw a stat where Orton had 7 plays of 20+ yards (4 to Gaffney).

Yep....Orton was throwing strikes for the first 3 quarters....20-30 yards down field and on target almost every time. I realise htat it was KC's D but why wasn't that part of the game plans at least somewhat more the past few weeks. In fact the two picks that were returned for TDs were relatively underneath or 8-10 yard stuff, that Orton had the LB hiding in coverage on.

The first one was underthrown, second was good play by the LB. Went to the well a little too often...I guess you can't keep throwing all day without
a few going wrong....
Helps to have a run game. See KC 44 Den 24

NYBronco
01-03-2010, 06:50 PM
I was refering to Polamalu.

Really???

Interesting in the statement you made.

"I dont give two ****s about the Steelers or how they perform, the Broncos on the other hand......"

But as you say, Polamalu it is.

Thanks for clearing that up.

SportinOne
01-03-2010, 06:51 PM
Obviously a very disappointing finish, regardless of what side of the fence you've been on this offseason.

Still, I wonder why it is that with the team's struggles this year... I wonder why the answer has continually been to try to pin it all on one player, on coach, one move... and not see the bigger picture?

We're just not that talented yet, folks. We were the WORST D IN FOOTBALL last year. Now, we're respectable, but we clearly still have work to do.

The offense? We need blockers and probably another play-maker, minimum.

We simply don't have all of the horses in place, yet. Now, I personally believe that we are a couple of players on each side from being a very dangerous team. But, we're not there yet... and did anyone think that would happen in a single season?

This isn't an "everything's fine" thread, it's just a thought that doesn't seem to get much play around here.

Orton had a bad game, but we had to play one-dimensional football. (For instance.) We can't win like that with Kyle Orton. Probably can't with any QB.

We have work to do. Personally, this was a very disturbing final game for me... but I still see a foundation in place that looks better than last season.
But, that's just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?

On one hand you are saying we don't have the talent to compete and on the other you are saying that we are a couple of players away from being something special.

You go on to say that we must "see the big picture", but it's funny how that big picture didn't apply to those who said Cutler "wasn't a winner" or that the collapse was Shanahan's fault.

This collapse was worse, much worse, than any Shanahan collapse. At least last year it was a very good team that put a beating on us. This was just pathetic.

But we can all be proud of how they played 2 months ago.

P.S. You can add 2 playmakers to offensive needs when McDaniels pushes Marshall and Scheffler out of town.

Beantown Bronco
01-03-2010, 06:52 PM
Before the wheels came off today, I saw a stat where Orton had 7 plays of 20+ yards (4 to Gaffney).

And there would've been more if it weren't for the 8 dropped passes. Graham in particular didn't do himself any favors today.

Archer81
01-03-2010, 06:53 PM
Before the season most people considered it a rebuilding phase with a new coach and new players. The Broncos tore off 6 straight wins against what was considered the "hard" part of our schedule. Like BF7 has been saying, that changed the expectations of the team and got the fans thinking more than a possible .500 team. Going 2-8 the last 10 games should have done the same thing the 6-0 start did, change the expectations of the 2009 Broncos. Whatever our individual reasoning for WHY Denver faded down the stretch, we are left with a team that is .500 in talent. They need to improve size and physicality along both lines. Without good line play, this team will not go anywhere and will continue to be a middle of the pack team.

My .02.

:Broncos:

SureShot
01-03-2010, 06:55 PM
Really???

Interesting in the statement you made.

"I dont give two ****s about the Steelers or how they perform, the Broncos on the other hand......"

But as you say, Polamalu it is.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I was giving a reason to your question why the Steelers struggled this year. You brought up the Steelers I didn't.

Popps
01-03-2010, 06:55 PM
On one hand you are saying we don't have the talent to compete and on the other you are saying that we are a couple of players away from being something special. .

No, I'm just saying we need MORE talent.

In fact, I very clearly stated that it is MY opinion that we have gotten better this year, overall.

But, yes... I also believe we're undermanned with regards to big-time players, and even need a few more role players.

Think about how deep our SB team was.

Do you honestly think this current roster is anywhere near that caliber of talent?


I'm not sure how anyone could possibly look at this roster and see a SB team, when we've all seen what one looks like first-hand.


We need talent upgrades, no matter who is at QB... no matter who is the coach.

Why is that even debatable?

ScottXray
01-03-2010, 06:55 PM
before the season most people considered it a rebuilding phase with a new coach and new players. The broncos tore off 6 straight wins against what was considered the "hard" part of our schedule. Like bf7 has been saying, that changed the expectations of the team and got the fans thinking more than a possible .500 team. Going 2-8 the last 10 games should have done the same thing the 6-0 start did, change the expectations of the 2009 broncos. Whatever our individual reasoning for why denver faded down the stretch, we are left with a team that is .500 in talent. They need to improve size and physicality along both lines. Without good line play, this team will not go anywhere and will continue to be a middle of the pack team.

My .02.

:broncos:

+1

cutthemdown
01-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Obviously Orton not a great qb, or even a good one. He is average at best. Still though I don't think using him next yr would be a bad idea if he will sign really cheap. Then we can use the money to lock up Doom, tender marshall high, if he leaves we get a 1st and 3rd. Scheff is gone obviously. Kuper not sure Broncos will probably tender him and see if any other teams want to sniff around.

Then try and find a few more decent FA and hit the draft again. Look for size for the interior oline, WR, Stud Dend or DT would be nice. Even athletic linebackers are needed. Ones who can cover and rush the passer etc etc.

Maybe Bailey takes a pay cut, but also I guess he may not want to and would just want to leave.

bpc
01-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Before the wheels came off today, I saw a stat where Orton had 7 plays of 20+ yards (4 to Gaffney).

The thing that you guys miss is that besides the Redskins game, this is the first game where McD let Orton go down the field. Which is why we're smarting after losing the playoffs, to a inferior opponent and had a 3 INT day, two of which were returned for TD's.

People hate the bubble screen. I HATE THE BUBBLE SCREEN. There is a reason McD has been doing it though. He went off the cuff with Orton against SF in the preseason and it was a disaster.

Today McD said no bullets were going to be left in the chamber... they were going to use the whole playbook... and here we are.

SD, Oakland, and KC all have resources devoted to the QB position. Denver currently has dog$hit masked in cologne. Until that changes, what you see is what you get and why a 4-12/5-11 team came into our house and whooped our ass twice busting off two, 200 yd rushers.

We suck.

broncosteven
01-03-2010, 06:57 PM
...But, instead of trying to blame everything on McD, Shanahan, Orton, Moreno, etc... how about the notion that we simply need more talent to compete, and that takes more than one offseason?

No REP for you.

You could say that about any team. I am guessing this is why Shanny kept trying to buy the big shinny FA to help make a difference (that and drafting in the high 20's every year).

If McD had shown some progression and got better as the year went on rather than go all in at the start of the season I would be a McD boy like you.

However this team followed up the 6 game win streak with a 4 game slide in which the o avg points scored was 10.

Then a small 2 game win streak followed by a 2nd 4 game slide. Sure they played hard after being down 21 - 0 at Indy but they still came up short.

There is nothing anyone can say that the team is showing improvement on, the D is a little better, a little but the O starts poorly every game and it takes a good half to get it going. Gaffney looked all world today until they finally double covered him. When teams took Orton's 1st option away he struggles, after they took Gaffney away Orton started with the INTS.

Blaming an Oline who had 2 guys go down and 2 guys get old is not the only answer.

Every team can use more talent, it is what you do with what you have that seperates the good HC's from the bad.

SportinOne
01-03-2010, 06:58 PM
Before the season most people considered it a rebuilding phase with a new coach and new players. The Broncos tore off 6 straight wins against what was considered the "hard" part of our schedule. Like BF7 has been saying, that changed the expectations of the team and got the fans thinking more than a possible .500 team. Going 2-8 the last 10 games should have done the same thing the 6-0 start did, change the expectations of the 2009 Broncos. Whatever our individual reasoning for WHY Denver faded down the stretch, we are left with a team that is .500 in talent. They need to improve size and physicality along both lines. Without good line play, this team will not go anywhere and will continue to be a middle of the pack team.

My .02.

:Broncos:

2008 went pretty much the same way. People forget that, but we were not supposed to be good last year either.

cutthemdown
01-03-2010, 06:59 PM
Before the season most people considered it a rebuilding phase with a new coach and new players. The Broncos tore off 6 straight wins against what was considered the "hard" part of our schedule. Like BF7 has been saying, that changed the expectations of the team and got the fans thinking more than a possible .500 team. Going 2-8 the last 10 games should have done the same thing the 6-0 start did, change the expectations of the 2009 Broncos. Whatever our individual reasoning for WHY Denver faded down the stretch, we are left with a team that is .500 in talent. They need to improve size and physicality along both lines. Without good line play, this team will not go anywhere and will continue to be a middle of the pack team.

My .02.

:Broncos:

Great post. It's true that how upset you get is tied to what you expect. Broncos faded for the reasons you say. Not big enough on either side of line. Fields needs some help at DT. Mcbean and Peterson not crap, but they also could use a stud to make them more role player. A stud 3-4 dend who can slide inside on passing downs would be nice.

DenverBrit
01-03-2010, 07:01 PM
Did anyone feel this was a rebuild?

I don't know.

What do you usually do when you have the last ranked D, the 16th ranked O... and fire your coach?

Expect the SB the next season, or rebuild?


We replaced almost all coaches, and a huge portion of the players... and both systems.

Explain to me what that is, if not a rebuild?

Yes.

03-29-2009, 09:31 PM:
Blue, did you honestly think this team was going to make the playoffs next season, knowing that the D and ST are a disaster and will take at least two years to re-build?
And the schedule doesn't help either.

It didn't matter who the HC was going to be, a major overhaul of the team was needed.
As much as I like the offense, it also needed improvement......scoring is what counts, not marching up and down the field, then turning the ball over.
Shortening the field with defensive turnovers and good special teams play will be a huge help.
But again, realistically, that's two years away.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2357375&postcount=118

cutthemdown
01-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Then on offense we need bigger and better interior olineman. It would be stupid to say Mcdaniels can't get it done. We have to at least expect 3 yrs before bowlen fires him.

I'm guessing at some point Kuper was injured. I watched him get really good. He was being really physical with defenders. As season went on he seemed to get rag dolled. That doesn't make sense. If he was injured though that would make since.

So if he only played poorly because harris was gone, he was injured also maybe, etc, I think Broncos will tender him high and then try to work on a deal. I wonder if other teams would want to give up draft picks for Kuper?

broncosteven
01-03-2010, 07:11 PM
Then on offense we need bigger and better interior olineman. It would be stupid to say Mcdaniels can't get it done. We have to at least expect 3 yrs before bowlen fires him.

I'm guessing at some point Kuper was injured. I watched him get really good. He was being really physical with defenders. As season went on he seemed to get rag dolled. That doesn't make sense. If he was injured though that would make since.

So if he only played poorly because harris was gone, he was injured also maybe, etc, I think Broncos will tender him high and then try to work on a deal. I wonder if other teams would want to give up draft picks for Kuper?

If they dump Marshall then don't sign our 2nd/3rd best Olinman we are in real trouble. They need to sign Kuper and draft/FA a Center and LEFT Guard, not right and Left guards.

Beantown Bronco
01-03-2010, 07:20 PM
SD, Oakland, and KC all have resources devoted to the QB position.

And only one has a QB of any real quality.

Hamrob
01-03-2010, 07:21 PM
It's been one of the harder things for me to figure out all offseason, why people refuse to believe we need better players.

Coming off the disaster last season was, suddenly... we were supposed to have a SB caliber roster?

I actually think we're a much better team. But, I also understand if people disagree.

EITHER WAY, we need more dudes that play better football.

EVEN WITH A DIFFERENT COACH... we need to improve talent.

I think we went a long way towards doing that, but we still have much work to do.You are what your record says you are. Last year we were 8-8 and this year....we are 8-8. We are not an improved football team.

We brought in a bunch of old guys to help our defense out. They did for a while...but they're old. They wore down.

We are worse off now then we were last year. Last year at least...the sky was the limits on offense. We had a young team that had only played together for 2yrs in Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Royal, Clady, Harris, Kuper. They were on the cusp of becoming special.

We needed to improve our defense and special teams.

Currently, we need to improve both lines, our Qb, our WR's, our TE, our Defense and our special teams.

Seems to me that we're not improved at all...but in trouble. McDaniels is going to have to do a great job in both Free Agency and the Draft to get us back on the right track. He needs to learn from his mistakes and work to improve this team. Can we get there. Yes. But, saying that we are improved over last year...just isn't true.

Hamrob
01-03-2010, 07:23 PM
And only one has a QB of any real quality.I don't know Beantown.

I kind of wish McDaniels would have been able to pull the trigger on the Cassel trade. I think he's 10x the QB Orton is.

Archer81
01-03-2010, 07:24 PM
I don't know Beantown.

I kind of wish McDaniels would have been able to pull the trigger on the Cassel trade. I think he's 10x the QB Orton is.


You know I wonder about that. Where would we have been if we had Cassel. But we dont, so speculation is kind of a waste of time.


:Broncos:

Popps
01-03-2010, 07:25 PM
I don't know Beantown.

I kind of wish McDaniels would have been able to pull the trigger on the Cassel trade. I think he's 10x the QB Orton is.

Not sure about 10x, but there's a reason he was McDaniels' first choice.

Again, the irony of having to beat the guy we wanted to be our QB this year to get into the playoffs was just off the charts.

Luckily, it didn't matter.

bpc
01-03-2010, 07:26 PM
And only one has a QB of any real quality.

Say what you want, they won when it mattered the most, late in the season, at our house. No playoffs for us.

WakeUpCall
01-03-2010, 07:28 PM
Well I thought the game was particularly entertaining... Go figure...

Beantown Bronco
01-03-2010, 07:29 PM
I don't know Beantown.

I kind of wish McDaniels would have been able to pull the trigger on the Cassel trade. I think he's 10x the QB Orton is.

10x is quite a bit of an exaggeration. What is not debatable, however, is that Cassel made more than 10x the money that Orton made this year. Not a very good return on that investment so far IMO.

gyldenlove
01-03-2010, 07:30 PM
No, I'm just saying we need MORE talent.

In fact, I very clearly stated that it is MY opinion that we have gotten better this year, overall.

But, yes... I also believe we're undermanned with regards to big-time players, and even need a few more role players.

Think about how deep our SB team was.

Do you honestly think this current roster is anywhere near that caliber of talent?


I'm not sure how anyone could possibly look at this roster and see a SB team, when we've all seen what one looks like first-hand.


We need talent upgrades, no matter who is at QB... no matter who is the coach.

Why is that even debatable?

Is our roster anywhere near in talent to the Jets? because they will make the playoffs.

Of course we need talent upgrades, we did that last year and despite your best efforts to conceal it, Mcdaniels failed to improve the talent at the most important position (QB) he failed to bring in significant talent in the draft despite 5 first day picks and most of the talent he brought in via FA will leave again before long.

extralife
01-03-2010, 07:30 PM
Not sure about 10x, but there's a reason he was McDaniels' first choice.

what a joke. if cassel is a better QB than orton despite those putrid numbers, then none of you can ever again point at cutler's stats this year and be like SEE@!!!!!1111ONEONEONE

and even still cutler threw more TDs than either of 'em.

Hamrob
01-03-2010, 07:31 PM
Not sure about 10x, but there's a reason he was McDaniels' first choice.

Again, the irony of having to beat the guy we wanted to be our QB this year to get into the playoffs was just off the charts.

Luckily, it didn't matter.Yeah, you can tell Cassel has a tremendous upside. Big, strong, mobile with a strong arm. The Chiefs got a nice trio with Cassell, Charles and Bowe. And Johnson sure has turned out nicely on defense.

I certainly think we could use an upgrade in the middle of our defense both at NT and inside backer.

Popps
01-03-2010, 07:33 PM
Is our roster anywhere near in talent to the Jets? because they will make the playoffs.

Of course we need talent upgrades, we did that last year and despite your best efforts to conceal it, Mcdaniels failed to improve the talent at the most important position (QB) he failed to bring in significant talent in the draft despite 5 first day picks and most of the talent he brought in via FA will leave again before long.

Again, who's trying to "conceal" anything?

I'm the one saying we need talent upgrades.

As for the QB position, we certainly got a more productive season from Orton than we did from Cutler and his league 2nd INTs last year.

Can we upgrade there? Sure?

I'm all for any player upgrades we can come up with.

That's the point. We have a nice base, but we still need more talent.

Why is that such a difficult point? Why does everyone need a single fall-guy?

Taco John
01-03-2010, 07:35 PM
The position "we need talent upgrades" applies to every fan of every sports team on the globe.

Hamrob
01-03-2010, 07:36 PM
10x is quite a bit of an exaggeration. What is not debatable, however, is that Cassel made more than 10x the money that Orton made this year. Not a very good return on that investment so far IMO.O.k. maybe Cassell didn't have a stellar year...but talent wise, he's head and heels above kyle Orton.

If you think differently, your sorrily mistaken.

anon
01-03-2010, 07:44 PM
I've been a McD supporter but I don't like how he is handling the pressure of losing and disappointing results. His latest moves in isolating Marshall and Scheffler smack of scapegoating and Eric Mangini level a**holeness.

Also, it appears his offensive playcalling, especially on 3rd and short, seem geared towards proving a point: either trying to feature Moreno (who I've been disappointed with) or show that our O-Line isn't built for the kind of power football he wants to play.

That being said, there is bound to be some friction when a new administration assumes leadership of any organization (KC has been in shambles despite winning their Superbowl today). However, it just doesn't feel right to me that Marshall and Scheffler were singled out. In public, both of these players have toed the company line. Their main problem just seems to be that they were "Shanahan" guys -- and I hope that's not the case, because if McD can't handle the fact that some guys in the locker room liked and respected the previous coach, he has a serious ego or insecurity problem.

houghtam
01-03-2010, 07:53 PM
Say what you want, they won when it mattered the most, late in the season, at our house. No playoffs for us.

Not that it takes the sting away at all, but it's not like we would have made the playoffs even if we had won.

extralife
01-03-2010, 07:55 PM
As for the QB position, we certainly got a more productive season from Orton than we did from Cutler and his league 2nd INTs last year.

wow, there's a new one.

just to humor you, Cuter threw 6 more picks last year than Kyle did this year, on 75 more throws. all of his other numbers were better. and I do mean every conceivable number. oh, and teams actually considered Jay's ability while planning against us.

Taco John
01-03-2010, 07:55 PM
Also, it appears his offensive playcalling, especially on 3rd and short, seem geared towards proving a point: either trying to feature Moreno (who I've been disappointed with) or show that our O-Line isn't built for the kind of power football he wants to play.


This point in particular is one that has stuck in my craw for some time.

WakeUpCall
01-03-2010, 08:00 PM
O.k. maybe Cassell didn't have a stellar year...but talent wise, he's head and heels above kyle Orton.

If you think differently, your sorrily mistaken.

Well I'm a Chiefs fan, and no matter how much you think Orton Sux, I think Cassell sux more... I've had to watch him all year, and he's horrible! And we threw $60M+ at him... LOL!!

houghtam
01-03-2010, 08:05 PM
As for the QB position, we certainly got a more productive season from Orton than we did from Cutler and his league 2nd INTs last year.

Agree. And for good measure, he threw 6 more INTs this year than any other QB in the league.

FROWN CANNON.

Broncos4tw
01-03-2010, 08:08 PM
So many koolaid drinking, pot-smoking fans oblivious to reality, it's sad.

Stop trying to defend McD. It's the coaches job to get the team ready to play. They were not. They were focused on the stupid-ass melodrama McD created in the locker room.

Orton sucks. He sucks every game, not just this game. He is average. AVERAGE! Mediocre. He will NEVER win a SB, unless we either have the best RB in football, or the #1 defense in football. I don't think we should replace him unless we have a solid replacement, but he should go (or serve as a backup) as soon as we do find someone.

McD needs to grow the hell up. I like his football savvy. I like his enthusiasm to win. I don't like his mindset that he has to prove hell or high water he is the law in town. He is not a dictator. He is a coach. He needs to professionaly deal with situations as they arise, not tear apart the lockerroom with bull****. Who cares if you don't think Shef was a good player. That's now how the other player's perceive it.

Our punter sucks (except today, ironcally). Replace him. Keep Marshall at all costs. Stop playing dictator, McD. Replace Orton. We will not win a SB with Orton, so as long as we keep him.. no SB.

Popps
01-03-2010, 09:44 PM
I'd argue that preparation wasn't nearly as much of a problem for us today as lack of personnel was.

McDaniels did a masterful job of getting production out of Gaffney.

But, when you can't run the ball... nothing else really matters.

Josh can't go out and open up a hole for Moreno or Buck to run through.


Again... get the personnel out there and then let's make a decision on scheme, etc.

uplink
01-03-2010, 11:41 PM
Blame the guy who decided not to wear the mustard colored uniforms after game 6 whoever that might be.
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lostknight
01-03-2010, 11:43 PM
I love the new voices of reason from the McDanielites. As if they were not force-feeding crow to whomever would open their mouth six months ago.

Taco John
01-03-2010, 11:46 PM
I'd argue that preparation wasn't nearly as much of a problem for us today as lack of personnel was.

McDaniels did a masterful job of getting production out of Gaffney.

But, when you can't run the ball... nothing else really matters.

Josh can't go out and open up a hole for Moreno or Buck to run through.


Again... get the personnel out there and then let's make a decision on scheme, etc.


This is the same team that we had our best rushing game against all season about 4 games ago. Blaming the offensive line is a cop out.

Doggcow
01-03-2010, 11:50 PM
Popps is dominating the boo-birds in this thread like KC dominated us today.

Hulamau
01-04-2010, 12:23 AM
The thing that you guys miss is that besides the Redskins game, this is the first game where McD let Orton go down the field. Which is why we're smarting after losing the playoffs, to a inferior opponent and had a 3 INT day, two of which were returned for TD's.

People hate the bubble screen. I HATE THE BUBBLE SCREEN. There is a reason McD has been doing it though. He went off the cuff with Orton against SF in the preseason and it was a disaster.

Today McD said no bullets were going to be left in the chamber... they were going to use the whole playbook... and here we are.

SD, Oakland, and KC all have resources devoted to the QB position. Denver currently has dog$hit masked in cologne. Until that changes, what you see is what you get and why a 4-12/5-11 team came into our house and whooped our ass twice busting off two, 200 yd rushers.

We suck.

Granted Orton had a bad fourth quarter. He was also playing with WRs 3 through 7 and a #3 TE. But I didn't see Orton out there on the D line whiffing on one 50 yard Charles jaunt after another after Kyle had driven down field to tie the game once again.

Orton made some really nice throws tonight and a few bad ones. The second INT for a Pick 6 was a miscommunciation with the WR .. not sure whose fault it was but it seems Orton expected the WR to cut to his right when he went left unmasking the LB and sealing our fate for good.

That shiat happens when your defense front seven is in off season mode at the beach already all day AND your are consulting have ign to come from behind all day just to tie the game AND your number 1 and Number two WR arent on the bench. One with a wittle 'owey' and a big new contract from some other team he didn't want to risk a real injury for and the other legitimately too hurt to play.

Still Orton needs to play better in the clutch at times too and on the first INT he did stare down the WR too long before throwing the pick. But this loss isn't just on Orton by any means at all.

Kyle may not be the long term answer, but he's a long way from the number one problem at the moment as well.

Popps
01-04-2010, 12:41 AM
This is the same team that we had our best rushing game against all season about 4 games ago. Blaming the offensive line is a cop out.

Again, Taco. You have to tell me what I'm "copping out" from.

I just don't get it.

Are you saying that the line blocked great and there were huge holes?

Were there not defenders in the backfield all day long, just like last week in Philly? Did I imagine all of that?

Are you saying that Kuper and the guys hate McDaniels so they refused to block?

Maybe you need to figure out what you're saying before accusing people of "copping out."

I mean, all I can do is look at the replay... and see swarms of defenders all over the ball-carrier before he gets to the LOS.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-04-2010, 12:48 AM
Obviously it was Ryan Clady's haircut, or the SI cover. Or both.

Archer81
01-04-2010, 01:06 AM
Obviously it was Ryan Clady's haircut, or the SI cover. Or both.


My theory is we stopped doing the opposing team look alike threads. You cant mess with mojo. The bitch is mean.

:Broncos:

fontaine
01-04-2010, 02:02 AM
Yes McDaniels is to blame. The single because factor in today's NFL is what you do with the draft, as it can set your team up for years or bring it crashing down.

None of our draft picks, yes NONE of them made any kind of impact that made a difference. Bruton has been a decent ST pick and Moreno has been average. Outside of this, nothing.

I'm not calling these guys busts because it's far too early but McD needs to get more return from the draft class where he had plenty of high picks.

Ultimately it was this weakeness that cost Shanahan his job.

barryr
01-04-2010, 05:48 AM
I stated before the season started that I doubted Nolan had all the pieces he wanted for this defense and would have to scheme his way for the defense to really be improved and that was pretty much the case. But as I also stated, you can only scheme so much until the lack of talent shows.

I still question whether this team needs to pay Champ so much money when they play mostly zone and he isn't making many plays anymore. Copper gets behind him to start the game?

The OL needs work as well. If wanting to be a team that can get 1st downs pretty regularly in short yardage situations, something this team struggled to do with Shanahan too, then clear they need upgrades and more size at LG and center in particular. Harris being back would hopefully help as well.

The boneheads around here feel better thinking that McDaniels inherited some great roster and has just torn it to shreds.

They should go back and look the last decade of all the draft busts on defense by Shanahan since 2000 in rounds 1-4. It is astounding the number of draft busts, yet McDaniels and Nolan should be blamed for not turning it around in one offseason? Ridiculous.

Punisher
01-04-2010, 06:00 AM
Blame Pat for not giving Mikey another year

barryr
01-04-2010, 06:04 AM
So Shanahan only needed 4 years to fix the defense? I see.

55CrushEm
01-04-2010, 06:05 AM
I just want to know how we beat....no wait, EMBARASS all 3 of our division rival in THEIR houses.....and then go and lose to all 3 in our house.

Punisher
01-04-2010, 06:17 AM
I just want to know how we beat....no wait, EMBARASS all 3 of our division rival in THEIR houses.....and then go and lose to all 3 in our house.

??? Cause we suck

Rashomon
01-04-2010, 06:56 AM
Again, Taco. You have to tell me what I'm "copping out" from.

I just don't get it.

Are you saying that the line blocked great and there were huge holes?

Were there not defenders in the backfield all day long, just like last week in Philly? Did I imagine all of that?

Are you saying that Kuper and the guys hate McDaniels so they refused to block?

Maybe you need to figure out what you're saying before accusing people of "copping out."

I mean, all I can do is look at the replay... and see swarms of defenders all over the ball-carrier before he gets to the LOS.

You said lack of personnel was the reason that Denver couldn't run against KC yesterday. It was the same personnel that ran all over KC in the previous game, which is why your argument doesn't make sense. Denver went from beating its 3 divisional opponents on average 34-13 on the road, to losing 32-15 at home, with essentially the same personnel. Perhaps coaching figures into the equation somewhere?

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2010, 06:58 AM
Blame Peyton Hillis.

I think he returned that one late kickoff where he only made it to the 15 out of spite.

His attitude and lack of accountability will get him a ticket out of Denver.

strafen
01-04-2010, 07:10 AM
Again, Taco. You have to tell me what I'm "copping out" from.

I just don't get it.

Are you saying that the line blocked great and there were huge holes?

Were there not defenders in the backfield all day long, just like last week in Philly? Did I imagine all of that?

Are you saying that Kuper and the guys hate McDaniels so they refused to block?

Maybe you need to figure out what you're saying before accusing people of "copping out."

I mean, all I can do is look at the replay... and see swarms of defenders all over the ball-carrier before he gets to the LOS.

Too much turmoil with this team.
Too much BS going on at the wrong time.
Scheffler was overheard saying he "couldn't wait for the season to be over" speaks volumes about the locker room at Dove Valley.
Yes, what Scheff said was wrong, but you need to look at the whole picture.
McDaniels has created more mutiny than he's created unity

Beantown Bronco
01-04-2010, 07:20 AM
Scheffler was overheard saying he "couldn't wait for the season to be over" speaks volumes about the locker room at Dove Valley.

Speaks volumes? Why? The best places in the world to work have some disgruntled employees. Doesn't mean they're still not the best places in the world to work.

Old Dude
01-04-2010, 07:30 AM
Most likely we go into '10 without a solid player at any skill position on offense and the defense, when the money is on the table, isn't really any better.
...


I think you can have all the "skill" players in the world, but it doesn't do any good, if the RBs have no holes, the QB has no time to throw and the front 7 on D can't stop the run or apply pressure.

Gimmee the beasts up front and I'll give you all kinds of skill stats.

I think this team made some strides on D but there is still a lot of work to be done there.

The top priority is that we need at least two new starters on the O-Line.

fontaine
01-04-2010, 07:45 AM
You said lack of personnel was the reason that Denver couldn't run against KC yesterday. It was the same personnel that ran all over KC in the previous game, which is why your argument doesn't make sense. Denver went from beating its 3 divisional opponents on average 34-13 on the road, to losing 32-15 at home, with essentially the same personnel. Perhaps coaching figures into the equation somewhere?

This more than anything else summarizes my disapointment with McDaniels. Teams that draft well, and so all out for their coaches win ball games in December. That and an effective running game plow the way through december.

I cannot understand how McD can choose to have Orton throw the ball 30-40 times a game. Yes we have problems along the OL, but isn't that why he traded up for Quinn as the next great blocking TE? Isn't that why he recommended going to a power running scheme?

I understand that it's his rookie season but when you see a problem you try to fix it the best you can, even if it means going back to the ZBS, instead of stubbornly relying on Orton and weak passing game to bail you out.

McDaniels had a great chance to fix the running game by going back to what worked before where we ran more ZBS plays against Oak/KC and carved them up with passes to our TEs (especially against Oak).

Instead he asked Orton to throw the ball to guys like Gaffney/Lloyd even when KC rolled coverage Gaffney's way. It was a stubbornly stupid way to go and I can understand why he did it. He just trusted his own passing system too much instead of doing what was best for the team.

fontaine
01-04-2010, 07:52 AM
I think you can have all the "skill" players in the world, but it doesn't do any good, if the RBs have no holes, the QB has no time to throw and the front 7 on D can't stop the run or apply pressure.

Gimmee the beasts up front and I'll give you all kinds of skill stats.

I think this team made some strides on D but there is still a lot of work to be done there.

The top priority is that we need at least two new starters on the O-Line.

We didn't have beasts before on the OL this decade and routinely graded out as one of the best rushing teams in the league?

Would you call Oakland's line full of our ZBS rejects like Cornell Green, Pears, Cooper beasts?

Well those guys took the rushing schemes McDaniels so easily discarded and pretty much out rushed Denver towards the end of the season while we watched our RBs get steam rolled in the backfield thanks to trying to front a power game with a sub 300 lb interior.

It's just plain stupid how a 33 year rookie head coach can come in and think he knows better than a life long RBs coach like Bobby Turner.

Last year with pretty much the same OL and far less talented RBs we ranked as one of the best rushing teams in the league. McDaniels took all of one off season to wreck that.

Old Dude
01-04-2010, 08:32 AM
We didn't have beasts before on the OL this decade and routinely graded out as one of the best rushing teams in the league?

Would you call Oakland's line full of our ZBS rejects like Cornell Green, Pears, Cooper beasts?

Well those guys took the rushing schemes McDaniels so easily discarded and pretty much out rushed Denver towards the end of the season while we watched our RBs get steam rolled in the backfield thanks to trying to front a power game with a sub 300 lb interior.

It's just plain stupid how a 33 year rookie head coach can come in and think he knows better than a life long RBs coach like Bobby Turner.

Last year with pretty much the same OL and far less talented RBs we ranked as one of the best rushing teams in the league. McDaniels took all of one off season to wreck that.

No, Oakland has no beasts on the O-Line. They also had a crappy season. So I'm not sure what the point is there.

Your other points sort of answer each other. Denver's O-Line was put together to establish a ZB running scheme, and it was successful for a long time. (Except for Clady) these guys were never drafted or signed to play a power running game. Obviously, that's the way McD wanted to go and obviously they weren't up to it.

So why didn't he just give up and reinstitute the ZB scheme? I'm not smart enough to answer the question. But I don't think that it's just because he's a stupid stubborn ass. I think it has more to do with the kind of controlled passing offense he was trying to introduce and the kind of QB he brought in to run it.

I do know that the zb scheme is largely based on lateral movement, and that we had our best success with it with mobile scrambler types like Elway and Plummer. Griese had some success with it until he was hurt.

Orton, whatever else he is, is not a scrambler.

It also plays into the kind of passing attack he was trying (sometimes successfully) to introduce - - that depends so heavily on fast passes and precise timing. Maybe that was inconsistent with some aspects of the zb scheme.

He didn't dump the zb scheme altogether; he obviously wanted an offense that was versatile enough to do all kinds of things. But like anything else, the more you mix things up, the harder it is to get into a rythym.

I also think that some of our success in the past was due to Denver's unique employment of the zb schemes. Over time, more teams messed around with it and found ways to defend it, whereas the rules changes seem more and more designed every year to open up opportunities in the passing game.

I do think that McD overestimated what he thought he could accomplish with Denver's personnel, and the injuries didn't help.

What I do know is that he can't run the kind of offense he wants to run (on a consistent basis) with the current line.

Popps
01-04-2010, 10:24 AM
Scheffler was overheard saying he "couldn't wait for the season to be over" speaks volumes about the locker room at Dove Valley.


Maybe it just speaks volumes about him.

Maybe it explains why even under Shanahan, he could never live up to expectations and he's been an erratic player his whole career.

Popps
01-04-2010, 10:27 AM
What I do know is that he can't run the kind of offense he wants to run (on a consistent basis) with the current line.

Again, to be fair... losing Harris was huge. But, you're right in the sense that the interior line is not capable of holding their blocks.

That goes to the theme of the thread... we need more talent.

It's a process, not a flip that you switch and things magically improve.

You'll get your wish, soon. We'll have at least 2 new starters on the OL by next season. Hopefully big, ugly, nasty ass-kickers.

TonyR
01-04-2010, 10:37 AM
This is the same team that we had our best rushing game against all season about 4 games ago. Blaming the offensive line is a cop out.

So who should we blame? Who's fault is it that there were Chiefs in the backfield on almost every running play?

55CrushEm
01-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Again, to be fair... losing Harris was huge. But, you're right in the sense that the interior line is not capable of holding their blocks.

That goes to the theme of the thread... we need more talent.

It's a process, not a flip that you switch and things magically improve.

You'll get your wish, soon. We'll have at least 2 new starters on the OL by next season. Hopefully big, ugly, nasty ass-kickers.

Hasn't it been said we would likely target Logan Mankins from the Patriots at LG? That would be nice....although he was a douche for the "nut-punching" incident back in the 2005 regular season game in Denver.

Popps
01-04-2010, 10:50 AM
Hasn't it been said we would likely target Logan Mankins from the Patriots at LG? That would be nice....although he was a douche for the "nut-punching" incident back in the 2005 regular season game in Denver.

There's been speculation, yea. There are a few Pats (or ex) guys that could be brought in. Imagine if a guy like Wilfork is available.

I really see what McD and Nolan did as "holders" in a lot of areas. Meaning that you can't fix it all in one season, so you put guys in there as place-holders until you can get the ones you want.

Look at my "historical facts" thread and check out our starters in 1995. Shanahan had a lot of place-holders on that team. Then, when out and got the names he wanted.

We'll see, but I'm a believer that we've made progress... and need at least one more off-season to get the guys in we need.

It took Shanahan several years to get the pieces in place, and that's with ALREADY HAVING a hall of fame QB.

colonelbeef
01-04-2010, 10:52 AM
There's been speculation, yea. There are a few Pats (or ex) guys that could be brought in. Imagine if a guy like Wilfork is available.

I really see what McD and Nolan did as "holders" in a lot of areas. Meaning that you can't fix it all in one season, so you put guys in there as place-holders until you can get the ones you want.

Look at my "historical facts" thread and check out our starters in 1995. Shanahan had a lot of place-holders on that team. Then, when out and got the names he wanted.

We'll see, but I'm a believer that we've made progress... and need at least one more off-season to get the guys in we need.

It took Shanahan several years to get the pieces in place, and that's with ALREADY HAVING a hall of fame QB.

Fix it all? what exactly did they fix, aside from piecing together an extremely old defensive backfield, and fixing the offense to total crap with no run game, a QB that can't make the big play, and ruining the proven OL scheme? What got fixed?

cartel
01-04-2010, 10:52 AM
I stated before the season started that I doubted Nolan had all the pieces he wanted for this defense and would have to scheme his way for the defense to really be improved and that was pretty much the case. But as I also stated, you can only scheme so much until the lack of talent shows.

I still question whether this team needs to pay Champ so much money when they play mostly zone and he isn't making many plays anymore. Copper gets behind him to start the game?

The OL needs work as well. If wanting to be a team that can get 1st downs pretty regularly in short yardage situations, something this team struggled to do with Shanahan too, then clear they need upgrades and more size at LG and center in particular. Harris being back would hopefully help as well.

The boneheads around here feel better thinking that McDaniels inherited some great roster and has just torn it to shreds.

They should go back and look the last decade of all the draft busts on defense by Shanahan since 2000 in rounds 1-4. It is astounding the number of draft busts, yet McDaniels and Nolan should be blamed for not turning it around in one offseason? Ridiculous.


qft. we don't have the talent. i love me some champ but he hasn't done well in a couple of seasons, trade him, and add depth to oline and dline. since we are going through a rebuild, time to say bye to champ, dj, davis, marshall, scheffler, hamilton, and weigmann.

jhns
01-04-2010, 10:53 AM
There isn't one thing to blame. We have tons of holes on defense. We have holes on the o-line. We have a crap QB. We have a bad head coach.

You are right, we have a LOT of work to do.

jhns
01-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Oh yeah, we also get to deal with holes at WR, TE, and whatever other positions McD decides he hates talent at this offseason.

55CrushEm
01-04-2010, 10:56 AM
It took Shanahan several years to get the pieces in place, and that's with ALREADY HAVING a hall of fame QB.

And a HOF tight end (Sharpe).....and a HOF LT (Zimmerman).....

fontaine
01-04-2010, 01:52 PM
No, Oakland has no beasts on the O-Line. They also had a crappy season. So I'm not sure what the point is there.


Oakland's running game > Denver's running game towards the end of the season with lesser OL/QB talent. That's the point.

So why didn't he just give up and reinstitute the ZB scheme? I'm not smart enough to answer the question. But I don't think that it's just because he's a stupid stubborn ass. I think it has more to do with the kind of controlled passing offense he was trying to introduce and the kind of QB he brought in to run it.

I do know that the zb scheme is largely based on lateral movement, and that we had our best success with it with mobile scrambler types like Elway and Plummer. Griese had some success with it until he was hurt.

Orton, whatever else he is, is not a scrambler.

It also plays into the kind of passing attack he was trying (sometimes successfully) to introduce - - that depends so heavily on fast passes and precise timing. Maybe that was inconsistent with some aspects of the zb scheme.

Two things:

1. McDaniels isn't someone who knows what it takes to run the ball successfully. It's pretty clear when you see how quickly and easily he gives up on the running game even when the game is tied or we're down by a score. His comfort zone is the passing game and he would rather throw a quick slant or bubble pass to a WR behind the line of scrimmage than run it. It's the same system run in NE. He's not stubborn, just not capable/knowledgeable in the running game.

2. You don't have to have a mobile QB for a zone blocking system. As long as you have two bookend tackles that can pass block (and we do) then you can setup enough of a pocket to pass the ball effectively. Yesterday for large chunks of the game, Orton HAD ALL DAY to throw the ball.


He didn't dump the zb scheme altogether; he obviously wanted an offense that was versatile enough to do all kinds of things. But like anything else, the more you mix things up, the harder it is to get into a rythym.

I do think that McD overestimated what he thought he could accomplish with Denver's personnel, and the injuries didn't help.

What I do know is that he can't run the kind of offense he wants to run (on a consistent basis) with the current line.

That's exactly what I'm saying too, but I was saying this months ago. It makes zero sense to run a power formation with two 280lb guys in the interior when they're going up against 330 lb DTs. The pressure from the interior was killing our running game, but instead of deferring to guys with hella lot more experience like Turner/Dennison which guys like Shanahan did, McD went down his way, through passing the ball and running it occasionally with the same tired plays.

Coaches are wrong all the time. Two teams compete for the superbowl, that leaves a lot of coaches out every year, who are "a lot" of wrong, a lot of the times.

I'm saying this now because I don't want McD to make the same dumb mistake AGAIN next year if we don't find a powerhouse Center/Guard combination because guys like that don't just grow on trees.

You do the best with what you have and this season and in the near future it's the ZBS.

fontaine
01-04-2010, 02:00 PM
But the first question and most important one that needs to be asked is Why the hell go away from the ZBS in the first place? You don't take something that's worked extremely well and dismantle it. You work to improve it.

I could see the sense in moving to a 3-4 D front because our 4-3 front scheme changed every off season and still sucked so that move made sense. But we went from a ZBS running game that was top five even with RB injuries every year to a running game that became non existent even against average/poor defenses because McDaniels had a "hunch."

I swear to god some of the most intelligent people on this earth are the ones that know how to say "Sorry, I don't know, what do you think?" and defer to more experienced and knowledgeable guys like Turner etc rather than mindf****ng themselves into a dead end.

Old Dude
01-04-2010, 02:11 PM
We're on a similar page I guess, with a couple of exceptions. I don't see Polumbus as a great bookend tackle who can pass block. Maybe he will be down the road, with a little more experience, but Orton had nowhere near the time to pass in the second half of the season that he had through the first 6 games.

From what I saw, the pass pressure came up the middle, especially over Hamilton (and especially in the Ravens game) and after Harris went down, we started collapsing on the right side as well. By the end of the season, everyone was falling apart, including Clady and Kuper.

Before Harris went down, we were at least getting some good outside runs - especially on the right side. After that, almost everything sealed up.

(I also disagree with you about the need for a mobile QB in a ZB scheme, but we can take that up some other time.)

Hopefully, McD will get the guys he needs to run his system in the offseason. But I don't see this team returning to zone blocking as its bread and butter for a long, long time, if ever.

fontaine
01-04-2010, 02:41 PM
We're on a similar page I guess, with a couple of exceptions. I don't see Polumbus as a great bookend tackle who can pass block. Maybe he will be down the road, with a little more experience, but Orton had nowhere near the time to pass in the second half of the season that he had through the first 6 games.

From what I saw, the pass pressure came up the middle, especially over Hamilton (and especially in the Ravens game) and after Harris went down, we started collapsing on the right side as well. By the end of the season, everyone was falling apart, including Clady and Kuper.

Before Harris went down, we were at least getting some good outside runs - especially on the right side. After that, almost everything sealed up.

(I also disagree with you about the need for a mobile QB in a ZB scheme, but we can take that up some other time.)

Hopefully, McD will get the guys he needs to run his system in the offseason. But I don't see this team returning to zone blocking as its bread and butter for a long, long time, if ever.

1. Agreed, Harris is the guy I was referring to, but Polumbus is ok as a backup. Harris is a lot smoother in his stance/knee bend and pickup that allows him excellent position against most types of rushers. Polumbus is too stiff and upright.

2. Sure, love to talk about the QB types in a ZB scheme. :approve:
But let me preface it by saying two things: Orton isn't a mobile QB (obviously), but you don't have to be a mobile QB if you're intelligent/savy enough to make the right pre snap reads to work in a ZBS (besides, they switch to traditional man blocking in the pass blocking anyway). Secondly mobility can be replaced by good pocket presence which includes moving around in the pocket. Something Orton was just starting to get better at before his screwed up his ankle.

3. And what if McD doesn't get that powerhouse G/C combo to run that scheme? Does he continue to fit a square peg into a round hole or make the best use of the talent available to him through a ZB scheme that is specifically designed in part to reduce the amount of backfield stops and negative plays that we saw in the run game all year?

Cito Pelon
01-04-2010, 03:17 PM
I'm not gonna cry too much about 8-8 for a first year HC, two new schemes, plus a new ST coach.

Archer81
01-04-2010, 03:31 PM
I'm not gonna cry too much about 8-8 for a first year HC, two new schemes, plus a new ST coach.


+1


:Broncos:

Popps
01-04-2010, 03:32 PM
We're on a similar page I guess, with a couple of exceptions. I don't see Polumbus as a great bookend tackle who can pass block. Maybe he will be down the road, with a little more experience, but Orton had nowhere near the time to pass in the second half of the season that he had through the first 6 games.

From what I saw, the pass pressure came up the middle, especially over Hamilton (and especially in the Ravens game) and after Harris went down, we started collapsing on the right side as well. By the end of the season, everyone was falling apart, including Clady and Kuper.

Before Harris went down, we were at least getting some good outside runs - especially on the right side. After that, almost everything sealed up.
.


Taco was asking why our results were so different on the line late in the season. This is a very good synopsis of what happened, imo.

I also think that teams probably watched the Baltimore game and figured out that the interior line was our weak-spot, and chose to attack it.