PDA

View Full Version : Espn rumor central


BroncoSojia
12-30-2009, 08:59 AM
10:47AM ET

Denver Broncos

The NFL has certainly turned into the "League of Quarterbacks", as rule changes and offensive trends have made it so that a team's passing attack is much more vital to its success than a solid running game.

Although Denver Broncos QB Kyle Orton did a fine job to start the season, the Broncos' fortunes turned for the worse when he started to slide as well, and they're now fighting for their playoff lives after a 6-0 start. The Broncos will have a reasonably high first round pick thanks to the Jay Cutler trade with the Chicago Bears, but the pickings in free agency and the trade market are a little slim.

Whatever they decide to do, NFL Insider Adam Schefter reminds us that in order to compete even for their division, they'll need to upgrade:



Adam Schefter
Chargers are booming because of Rivers

"San Diego has controlled the AFC West for much of this decade. Why is that? Their two quarterbacks have been Drew Brees and Philip Rivers. Denver fared fairly well with Jake Plummer and Jay Cutler, advancing all the way to the AFC Championship game back in 2006. Oakland has struggled at quarterback and so has Kansas City, and where have those teams been? At the bottom of the division. Yet when Oakland had NFL MVP Rich Gannon, it went to the Super Bowl. See a trend here? It's a quarterback league and if a team doesn't have one, it is not going to win consistently."
__________________

Rabb
12-30-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't see the rumor

Broncoman13
12-30-2009, 09:04 AM
Kyle Orton is toast in Denver. He'll be offered a chance to compete and be an outstanding back up, but he's not the way forward. Pray for Clausen or Bradford.

bowtown
12-30-2009, 09:06 AM
I don't see the rumor

Exactly... don't you wish you could also pay money for this kind of hard hitting journalism?

vancejohnson82
12-30-2009, 09:07 AM
if we get Clausen, stock up on Vicodin and Jameson because he has B-U-S-T written all over him

please no

bronco610
12-30-2009, 09:09 AM
Kyle Orton is toast in Denver. He'll be offered a chance to compete and be an outstanding back up, but he's not the way forward. Pray for Clausen or Bradford.

You mean pray for Brandstater. McD is not going to use a high pick on QB. It is not the NE way.

brncs_fan
12-30-2009, 09:10 AM
if we get Clausen, stock up on Vicodin and Jameson because he has B-U-S-T written all over him

please no

Clausen should have gone back for his senior season. He would have a much better future as a pro.

Broncoman13
12-30-2009, 09:12 AM
You mean pray for Brandstater. McD is not going to use a high pick on QB. It is not the NE way.

This isn't NE and he isn't so clueless that he won't make a change to make the entire offense better. Simply put, you either change everythign you want to do including your OL and playcalling or you change your QB. Will it be a high draft pick, maybe not.

At this point I'd settle for Brodie Croyle or Tavaris Jackson. Both would be upgrades to the offense as a whole. Perhaps not better passing QBs, but teams would have to account for the QB both running and passing beyond 5 yards. That by itself will open things up for the running game and make life that much easier for the OL. If we go into the draft and free agency and only address the OL we will set this team/franchise back another year.

Broncoman13
12-30-2009, 09:14 AM
Seems a lot of people disagree with your opinion on Clausen...

Jimmy Clausen Scouting Report
By Matt McGuire

Strengths:
Solid size and adequate bulk
Very good arm strength; can fit balls into tight windows
Extremely quick, snappy release
Great accuracy
Nice hip torque on throws
Gets rid of ball quickly
Very decisive with the football
Takes what defense gives him; doesn't force ball/will throw away
Elite football IQ
Great touch
Well versed in NFL offense
Good sense of timing
Will step up/out of pocket
Knows how to read coverage
Sees the entire field; great vision
Very polished for a true junior
Shown outstanding development from freshman to junior season
Extremely intelligent
Ice in his veins; great poise
Mentally tough; plays through pain
Big leader
Confident
Film room rat
Elite intangibles
Good genetics and very well coached
Spent 3.5 years in a West Coast offense


Weaknesses:
Does a poor job of selling play action
Can get lazy with footwork - but has improved this
Not a fluid athlete
Personality might come off as abrasive
Sometimes gets too much air under fade route
Lacks a little pocket awareness

Summary: Jimmy Clausen is a franchise quarterback. He has carried the spotlight since he was a teenager and has surpassed the hype. He has an outstanding skill set with the elite intangibles you see in the great quarterbacks. Clausen isn't fazed by tense situations and has great leadership when the game is on the line. He puts in the hours to be a great quarterback and you see it on tape. Clausen will likely be the first quarterback drafted and is a projected top-five draft pick.

Player Comparison: Kurt Warner. Warner and Clausen both exhibit the same three-quarter release, they get the ball out quickly, and are extremely decisive/intelligent quarterbacks. Clausen has a stronger arm.

bronco610
12-30-2009, 09:15 AM
You would take croyle over Brandstater?

Mr.Meanie
12-30-2009, 09:15 AM
So... the rumor is that Rivers is good so the Broncos are ditching Orton? Hmm...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-30-2009, 09:15 AM
I'm not sold that we go QB in the first. We're winning games (will win more than we lose this season) with defense and not turning the ball over. We can address other problems on this team, give Orton another year in the offense, and continue to win.

Broncoman13
12-30-2009, 09:18 AM
You would take croyle over Brandstater?

Yes, I would.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 09:19 AM
At this point I'd settle for Brodie Croyle or Tavaris Jackson. Both would be upgrades to the offense as a whole.

Wanted to quote this before you sobered up and deleted it.

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 09:19 AM
The only QB in this draft that I would take would be Bradford and we all know that he is somewhat fragile. He's a winner with great accuracy. Does he have the arm strength? I don't know.

I bang on Orton every week....because he just can't get the ball down the field effectively and he stinks on 3rd down. That being said, I would resign him to a middle of the road contract and continue to develop Brandstrater...then I would be looking to upgrade anyway I could...trade, draft or Free Agency. It might not happen this year.

As for Bradford...I think he goes to Shanny and the Skins at 5.

Ambiguous
12-30-2009, 09:20 AM
You mean pray for Brandstater. McD is not going to use a high pick on QB. It is not the NE way.

I think Brandstater is beyond what a prayer can do. I don't think he was ever meant to be anything other than a backup - I mean Simms was ahead of him, that really tells you what we have there.

Really there is no indication that McD drafts like NE, could you see Belichick
making the A. Smith pick?

bpc
12-30-2009, 09:21 AM
This isn't saying anything we didn't already know. To compete in the AFC, with Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers and others, don't be bringing a knife to this gunfight.

Orton isn't even a knife. He's like a spatula; A kitchen utensil, but far from threatening.

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 09:24 AM
This isn't saying anything we didn't already know. To compete in the AFC, with Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers and others, don't be bringing a knife to this gunfight.

Orton isn't even a knife. He's like a spatula; A kitchen utensil, but far from threatening.Bravo. Well said!

BroncoSojia
12-30-2009, 09:25 AM
This isn't saying anything we didn't already know. To compete in the AFC, with Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers and others, don't be bringing a knife to this gunfight.

Orton isn't even a knife. He's like a spatula; A kitchen utensil, but far from threatening.

He's more like one of those plastic sporks that you get with orders from certain restaurants.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 09:26 AM
Orton isn't even a knife. He's like a spatula; A kitchen utensil, but far from threatening.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2XbCWmY0eqY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2XbCWmY0eqY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

brncs_fan
12-30-2009, 09:29 AM
Seems a lot of people disagree with your opinion on Clausen...

Not sure if this was aimed at me or not but I will respond anyway.

I have seen Clausen play almost every game for the last three years and he really didn't start to put it together until this year. I don't know that I can point to any single element of his play, but the overall feel I get from him as I watch him is that there is an "it" factor that is still missing. I thought he would have done himself a world of good by staying in school and polishing his game and becoming a little tougher mentally.

Case in point: This year he was playing with Golden Tate (who is a phenomenal athlete and will do some major damage in the NFL) and Malcolm Floyd (who was hurt part of the season) and one of the best receiving TE's in the nation in Ragone. With all of this he still struggled to hit open targets when the game was on the line and he needed to make a big play.

I don't think he is a bad pro prospect, I just think that all of the "greats" have the same thing in common...they went to school all four years.

misturanderson
12-30-2009, 09:29 AM
This isn't NE and he isn't so clueless that he won't make a change to make the entire offense better. Simply put, you either change everythign you want to do including your OL and playcalling or you change your QB. Will it be a high draft pick, maybe not.

At this point I'd settle for Brodie Croyle or Tavaris Jackson. Both would be upgrades to the offense as a whole. Perhaps not better passing QBs, but teams would have to account for the QB both running and passing beyond 5 yards. That by itself will open things up for the running game and make life that much easier for the OL. If we go into the draft and free agency and only address the OL we will set this team/franchise back another year.

So your opinion is that we would be better off with a QB that was so good for his team that Sage Rosenfels was brought in to compete with him for the starting job or that we would be better off with a QB with a lifetime record of 0-9 as a starter.

Great thinking there chief, don't quit your day job.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-30-2009, 09:31 AM
I think Brandstater is beyond what a prayer can do. I don't think he was ever meant to be anything other than a backup - I mean Simms was ahead of him, that really tells you what we have there.


At the same time, you don't give up 2 picks for a QB you only think can be a backup. If McD thought so little of Brandstater last April, then he sits tight in the 6th round and takes him if he falls to Denver's pick, he doens't trade up for him.

Simms, a vet who had a winning record as a starter vs a late round rookie? 32 out of 32 teams have Simms as the backup in that situation.

misturanderson
12-30-2009, 09:33 AM
The only QB in this draft that I would take would be Bradford and we all know that he is somewhat fragile. He's a winner with great accuracy. Does he have the arm strength? I don't know.

I bang on Orton every week....because he just can't get the ball down the field effectively and he stinks on 3rd down. That being said, I would resign him to a middle of the road contract and continue to develop Brandstrater...then I would be looking to upgrade anyway I could...trade, draft or Free Agency. It might not happen this year.

As for Bradford...I think he goes to Shanny and the Skins at 5.

Have you seen Tony Pike play this year? I would be fine with him being picked up in the 2nd or 3rd round if he drops that far. I see him as an almost identical QB to Bradford who just put it all together this year as opposed to a couple years ago.

Bronco Yoda
12-30-2009, 09:37 AM
I'd like to see what Brandstater can do under live fire.

400HZ
12-30-2009, 09:41 AM
You should try and coax Plummer out of retirement.

misturanderson
12-30-2009, 09:41 AM
Wanted to quote this before you sobered up and deleted it.

No ****. That may be the most idiotic thing I have ever seen.

A QB who couldn't lead the freaking vikings to any type of success, even with AP on his team. Obviously way better than Orton.

Or...the most fragile QB ever to play the game who couldn't beat out all-time great QBs like Damon Huard or Tyler Thigpen for a starting role and when he does start (due to injury), he always loses.

Just goes to show how irrational the hatred for Orton is with some people.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-30-2009, 09:43 AM
I'd like to see what Brandstater can do under live fire.

This.

I'd also like to know why he hasn't taken over the 2nd spot on the depth chart, even with Simms playing like a retarded invalid without arms.

Popps
12-30-2009, 09:44 AM
Rivers is a difference-maker, I'll give you that.

But, finding a QB of his caliber is extremely difficult, and we have a winning formula with Orton.

I'm all for this magical finger-snapping that makes a new John Elway appear. But, until we go ahead and do that, lock up Orton and let's stay competitive.

bombay
12-30-2009, 09:52 AM
if we get Clausen, stock up on Vicodin and Jameson because he has B-U-S-T written all over him

please no


++

TonyR
12-30-2009, 10:23 AM
McD is not going to use a high pick on QB. It is not the NE way.

People need to drop this "not the NE way" argument. NE had Drew Bledsoe and spent a 6th round pick on a QB. They got lucky and that QB turned out to be Tom Brady. If they had a major need at QB and someone was available with a high pick I'm sure Belichick would have used it. Same story in Denver. If the FO loves Bradford, or Clausen, or whoever, and he's there when they pick, they'll probably take him. If they're happy with the Orton/Brandstater duo, or if there's an FA they like, they probably won't. I don't think the "high pick" or "NE way" is a factor.

Rabb
12-30-2009, 10:25 AM
I say we go after Troy Smith

Dendave
12-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Weaknesses:
Does a poor job of selling play action
Can get lazy with footwork - but has improved this
Not a fluid athlete
Personality might come off as abrasive
Sometimes gets too much air under fade route
Lacks a little pocket awareness

I don't care what his strengths are, these are what scare me.

Dagmar
12-30-2009, 10:33 AM
I don't care what his strengths are, these are what scare me.

Well, the "abrasive personality"... we just had one of those, I don't want another!

SonOfLe-loLang
12-30-2009, 10:36 AM
I say we go after Troy Smith

A joke. I hope.


I disagree with the guy who hates jimmy clausen. To me, he looks like the best QB coming out this year.

cutthemdown
12-30-2009, 10:40 AM
how did Broncos lose to Qbs like Doug Williams and Phil Simms then? They were average and we had Elway.

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 10:44 AM
Have you seen Tony Pike play this year? I would be fine with him being picked up in the 2nd or 3rd round if he drops that far. I see him as an almost identical QB to Bradford who just put it all together this year as opposed to a couple years ago.I'd be fine with that. I just don't think I'd waste our #1 on Clausen. I think Bradford has the most upside...but is a boom or bust prospect. I definitely think we should draft another QB...if for nothing else to compete with Brandstrater.

jhns
12-30-2009, 10:48 AM
I have been saying this exact thing for a while now. Orton has not shown he is the answer. I'm not sure how anyone watching him play can say otherwise. Maybe he can develope into the answer but as of his 5th year, he hasn't.

jhns
12-30-2009, 10:51 AM
Rivers is a difference-maker, I'll give you that.

But, finding a QB of his caliber is extremely difficult, and we have a winning formula with Orton.

I'm all for this magical finger-snapping that makes a new John Elway appear. But, until we go ahead and do that, lock up Orton and let's stay competitive.

1. Just because it's hard doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

2. What are you talking about? The offense has not pulled its weight. We have a shot at 9-7 with a very good defense. I do not get how an unproductive offense and bad QB is the formula we have used to win. It has been the defense and special teams play that is winning us games. As soon as they stopped holding everyone to 10 points, we started losing....

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 10:52 AM
how did Broncos lose to Qbs like Doug Williams and Phil Simms then? They were average and we had Elway.I don't think that Phil Simms was only average. What you are stating is the exception to the rule. You can win a championship without an elite QB, but it's extremely difficult. That's what Shcefter is stating.

Do I think we can win one with Orton? No I don't. What do you think?

Ambiguous
12-30-2009, 10:55 AM
At the same time, you don't give up 2 picks for a QB you only think can be a backup. If McD thought so little of Brandstater last April, then he sits tight in the 6th round and takes him if he falls to Denver's pick, he doens't trade up for him.

Simms, a vet who had a winning record as a starter vs a late round rookie? 32 out of 32 teams have Simms as the backup in that situation.

Fair enough. Point is, either he is not going to be a starter, or he is more than a couple of years away from it.

bronco610
12-30-2009, 10:59 AM
People need to drop this "not the NE way" argument. NE had Drew Bledsoe and spent a 6th round pick on a QB. They got lucky and that QB turned out to be Tom Brady. If they had a major need at QB and someone was available with a high pick I'm sure Belichick would have used it. Same story in Denver. If the FO loves Bradford, or Clausen, or whoever, and he's there when they pick, they'll probably take him. If they're happy with the Orton/Brandstater duo, or if there's an FA they like, they probably won't. I don't think the "high pick" or "NE way" is a factor.

Actually I think the NE way is a factor because of the way Belichick hand tutored McD. I think McD believes so much in his system that even the idea of using a high draft pick on a QB is against his phylosophy. Not saying I am right just my 2 cents worth like everyone else on the mane. The Smith arguement someone else brought up is a valid argument. I think Belichick would not have made that pick.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 11:02 AM
What are you talking about? The offense has not pulled its weight. We have a shot at 9-7 with a very good defense. I do not get how an unproductive offense and bad QB is the formula we have used to win. It has been the defense and special teams play that is winning us games. As soon as they stopped holding everyone to 10 points, we started losing....

10 pts? They are giving up 28 pts on average in the 7 losses. That's quite a bit different than 10. They've been great for stretches and terrible for stretches. Either way, not nearly as good as you give them credit for.

elsid13
12-30-2009, 11:04 AM
Actually I think the NE way is a factor because of the way Belichick hand tutored McD. I think McD believes so much in his system that even the idea of using a high draft pick on a QB is against his phylosophy. Not saying I am right just my 2 cents worth like everyone else on the mane. The Smith arguement someone else brought up is a valid argument. I think Belichick would not have made that pick.

Belicheat used a 3rd round pick on QB last year, isn't that high pick? If there is QB there in 1st/2nd or 3rd that McDaniels think will work in his system, he will pick him.

bronco610
12-30-2009, 11:05 AM
Another reason for passing on a QB this year is the possibility of a new agreement between the players and the leage of a rookie pay scale. This maybe the last year of the mega contracts to unprooven QB's.

jhns
12-30-2009, 11:07 AM
10 pts? They are giving up 28 pts on average in the 7 losses. That's quite a bit different than 10. They've been great for stretches and terrible for stretches. Either way, not nearly as good as you give them credit for.

Some of those points were from the offense or setup by our offense. Also, like I said, as soon as they stopped holding teams to 10 points, we started losing. I didn't say we held everyone to 10 points. Try keeping up.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 11:12 AM
Some of those points were from the offense or setup by our offense.

Very, very few. This offense has very rarely turned the ball over on our own side of the field.

Also, like I said, as soon as they stopped holding teams to 10 points, we started losing. I didn't say we held everyone to 10 points. Try keeping up.

Still wrong. Weeks 5 and 6 escaped your attention I guess.

jhns
12-30-2009, 11:16 AM
Still wrong. Weeks 5 and 6 escaped your attention I guess.

Adam agrees with me. He knows football better than either of us. I win.

Popps
12-30-2009, 11:21 AM
1. Just because it's hard doesn't mean you shouldn't try..

That's nice.

It's not what I said, but that's very interesting.


2. What are you talking about? The offense has not pulled its weight. We have a shot at 9-7 with a very good defense. I do not get how an unproductive offense and bad QB is the formula we have used to win. It has been the defense and special teams play that is winning us games. As soon as they stopped holding everyone to 10 points, we started losing....

A scoring improvement of about 4 points per game next season gets us into the top ten in scoring. An adequate job at fixing the O-line troubles, and it's very possible we see that happen.

We're 6th in the league in turnover ratio.

Playing tight offense and aggressive defense is what has allowed us to have success this year.

You and I both know that a healthy Kyle Orton wins that Washington game, and we're not even worried about getting into the playoffs, at this point.

We still may.

Again, you can kick and scream all you want. Don't blame me. Kyle Orton will be our starter next season. We may draft a guy to develop, but I'll guarantee you that coach McDaniels doesn't share your "analysis" of our quarterback.

So, again... we can work on developing a QB, but you don't pitch your chances in the toilet by starting a rookie when you have a winning team, particularly one with a good number of vets.

Didn't you learn anything from watching Mike Shanahan's failed Cutler experiment?

He lost the team, and lost his job.

McDaniels wont' make the same mistake.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 11:24 AM
Adam agrees with me. He knows football better than either of us. I win.

Tell him what he's won:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oC3LPU9smT0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oC3LPU9smT0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

vancejohnson82
12-30-2009, 11:32 AM
Beantown,

what on Earth is that?

jhns
12-30-2009, 11:33 AM
That's nice.

It's not what I said, but that's very interesting.



A scoring improvement of about 4 points per game next season gets us into the top ten in scoring. An adequate job at fixing the O-line troubles, and it's very possible we see that happen.

We're 6th in the league in turnover ratio.

Playing tight offense and aggressive defense is what has allowed us to have success this year.

You and I both know that a healthy Kyle Orton wins that Washington game, and we're not even worried about getting into the playoffs, at this point.

We still may.

Again, you can kick and scream all you want. Don't blame me. Kyle Orton will be our starter next season. We may draft a guy to develop, but I'll guarantee you that coach McDaniels doesn't share your "analysis" of our quarterback.

So, again... we can work on developing a QB, but you don't pitch your chances in the toilet by starting a rookie when you have a winning team, particularly one with a good number of vets.

Didn't you learn anything from watching Mike Shanahan's failed Cutler experiment?

He lost the team, and lost his job.

McDaniels wont' make the same mistake.

You sure hope McDaniels sides with you. Don't know why, but you seem to hope for it.

Who's to say we win in Washington? You know that is a load of crap. We took a big lead and then the offense completely stalled well before Orton got hurt. They had come back all but a single score before Simms ever saw the field. That is after we took a 3 score lead at the start. Yeah, we really had that in the bag...

I will agree with you that Orton could be the best option next year even if we get a top rookie. That would still be finding his replacement and it would be sending the message that what is currently happening isn't good enough. Either get better fast or get out. That is all I ask for. Adam agrees with me. I'm not sure why you are so positive McDaniels doesn't.

jhns
12-30-2009, 11:37 AM
Tell him what he's won:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oC3LPU9smT0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oC3LPU9smT0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I can't view flash right now. Can you describe it for me?

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 11:38 AM
Beantown,

what on Earth is that?

You've never seen "A Christmas Story"?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uvMLfSQrHKE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uvMLfSQrHKE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2009, 11:38 AM
I can't view flash right now. Can you describe it for me?

It's the leg lamp from "A Christmas Story"

jhns
12-30-2009, 11:42 AM
It's the leg lamp from "A Christmas Story"

I'll take that. It is an awsome lamp.

vancejohnson82
12-30-2009, 11:47 AM
hahaha...awesome


once again owning the "Movie Trivia/Reference" award

Rabb
12-30-2009, 11:49 AM
A joke. I hope.


I disagree with the guy who hates jimmy clausen. To me, he looks like the best QB coming out this year.

not really, if he was affordable he is light years ahead of Simms and starter material with some work

maybe I am just bitter and wanting a mobile QB, sorry

vancejohnson82
12-30-2009, 12:10 PM
not really, if he was affordable he is light years ahead of Simms and starter material with some work

maybe I am just bitter and wanting a mobile QB, sorry

I just don't want another guy with an attitude running this team....it says a lot that he got punched in the face on his own campus.

most QBs are heroes on campus...

Rabb
12-30-2009, 12:15 PM
I just don't want another guy with an attitude running this team....it says a lot that he got punched in the face on his own campus.

most QBs are heroes on campus...

lol good point

jmz313
12-30-2009, 12:27 PM
Brandstater is McD's Tom Brady. He'll reveal the S on his chest once Orton gets injured.

Popps
12-30-2009, 12:31 PM
You sure hope McDaniels sides with you. Don't know why, but you seem to hope for it. .

Quite the contrary. I made a prediction. I believe he will stick with Orton. I even said "don't blame me," which should saved you from making that incorrect assumption.

What I want isn't really relevant.

My prediction is that McDaniels will take the logical path, and develop a QB as we utilize the one we have now... and attempt to win with this group.

Y
Who's to say we win in Washington? You know that is a load of crap. .

Only a load of crap in your mind. But, that's all opinion. So, not much use in discussing it.


I will agree with you that Orton could be the best option next year even if we get a top rookie. That would still be finding his replacement and it would be sending the message that what is currently happening isn't good enough. Either get better fast or get out. That is all I ask for. Adam agrees with me. I'm not sure why you are so positive McDaniels doesn't.

Adam?

Look, we saw writers step in **** on every single prediction they made during the off-season. NOW we're supposed to start taking their word as gospel? The same ones that told us Cutler would be a huge success in Chicago and that we'd finish last in the AFC West?

Again, I have no doubt we'll try to develop a QB, after the Simms disaster.
However, McDaniels watched the Cutler debacle from afar, and saw how it split up the locker room and how the team tanked. He's not likely to make that mistake. Furthermore, it's my opinion that posters like yourself underestimate McDaniels' opinion of Orton. I think he believes he can win with Orton. THAT is just an opinion. But, my prediction of Orton being our starter next year is one I'm very confident about.

gunns
12-30-2009, 01:25 PM
how did Broncos lose to Qbs like Doug Williams and Phil Simms then? They were average and we had Elway.

They were playing against the Broncos D, who happened to put Elway in a no win situation with little to no running game.

bronco610
12-30-2009, 01:26 PM
They were playing against the Broncos D, who happened to put Elway in a no win situation with little to no running game.

gunns how dare you come into this thread and make sense? :wiggle:

Cool Breeze
12-30-2009, 01:35 PM
Of course Kyle Orton will improve. It's his first year in this system.
Somehow I don't believe Phillip Rivers was all pro in his first year of a new system.

I want to see what Brandstater can do next year. Dump Simms and bring in a third QB with some mobility to compete.

For the Cutler lovers:
Net passing yards leaders: #17 Chicago 3205 yards/ #18 Denver 3199 yards - a whopping 6 yard differential with 17 less interceptions!

For me - it all starts with the run game.
We are 15th in rushing yards offensively, and 19th in rushing yards defensively.
In those games we lost, I remember wishing we could run better, and watching us get run roughshod over.

If McDaniels can improve Center, Left Guard, Right Tackle play & improve the defensive front 7 we should be good enough to win more games in 2010.

oubronco
12-30-2009, 02:07 PM
This isn't NE and he isn't so clueless that he won't make a change to make the entire offense better. Simply put, you either change everythign you want to do including your OL and playcalling or you change your QB. Will it be a high draft pick, maybe not.

At this point I'd settle for Brodie Croyle or Tavaris Jackson. Both would be upgrades to the offense as a whole. Perhaps not better passing QBs, but teams would have to account for the QB both running and passing beyond 5 yards. That by itself will open things up for the running game and make life that much easier for the OL. If we go into the draft and free agency and only address the OL we will set this team/franchise back another year.

Oh good God you can't be this stupid................can you?

Popps
12-30-2009, 02:12 PM
Of course Kyle Orton will improve. It's his first year in this system.
Somehow I don't believe Phillip Rivers was all pro in his first year of a new system.

I want to see what Brandstater can do next year. Dump Simms and bring in a third QB with some mobility to compete.

For the Cutler lovers:
Net passing yards leaders: #17 Chicago 3205 yards/ #18 Denver 3199 yards - a whopping 6 yard differential with 17 less interceptions!

For me - it all starts with the run game.
We are 15th in rushing yards offensively, and 19th in rushing yards defensively.
In those games we lost, I remember wishing we could run better, and watching us get run roughshod over.

If McDaniels can improve Center, Left Guard, Right Tackle play & improve the defensive front 7 we should be good enough to win more games in 2010.

Bingo.

Broncos4tw
12-30-2009, 02:33 PM
People have such low standards anymore. I want us to compete for the SB EVERY STINKING YEAR. Not "Oh.. let's rebuild for 4 more years, see what happens." Screw that.

Will Orton win us a SB? Hell no. He will never win a SB with this team (and probably not any other team either, unless as a backup). So if we can replace him with a solid enough relacement, do so. If we can only moderately upgrade him, keep him, because then yes, it's just a waste of time when we have to do it again.

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 02:39 PM
Of course Kyle Orton will improve. It's his first year in this system.
Somehow I don't believe Phillip Rivers was all pro in his first year of a new system.

I want to see what Brandstater can do next year. Dump Simms and bring in a third QB with some mobility to compete.

For the Cutler lovers:
Net passing yards leaders: #17 Chicago 3205 yards/ #18 Denver 3199 yards - a whopping 6 yard differential with 17 less interceptions!

For me - it all starts with the run game.
We are 15th in rushing yards offensively, and 19th in rushing yards defensively.
In those games we lost, I remember wishing we could run better, and watching us get run roughshod over.

If McDaniels can improve Center, Left Guard, Right Tackle play & improve the defensive front 7 we should be good enough to win more games in 2010.Did Kyle Orton improve during his 4yrs in Chicago? They felt so highly about him that they included him as an afterthought in the trade to Denver. Give me a break. He will never be more than average. Quit trying to make him out to be more than he is.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-30-2009, 02:50 PM
Did Kyle Orton improve during his 4yrs in Chicago? They felt so highly about him that they included him as an afterthought in the trade to Denver. Give me a break. He will never be more than average. Quit trying to make him out to be more than he is.

While some of your response might be valid, the line "They felt so highly about him that they included him as an afterthought in the trade to Denver." makes zero sense. 1) they had no need for a QB since they just traded for one, and 2) he wasnt an after thought for Denver as he was the QB the staff wanted.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-30-2009, 02:53 PM
People have such low standards anymore. I want us to compete for the SB EVERY STINKING YEAR. Not "Oh.. let's rebuild for 4 more years, see what happens." Screw that.



You call it low standards. I call it having knowledge of how the system actually works. Up years. Down years. Of course you don't want many down years, and you want to extend up years. But it's simply a hissy fit to think we can win the Super Bowl every year. Sorry kiddo.

Rother8
12-30-2009, 03:12 PM
Seems a lot of people disagree with your opinion on Clausen...

Jimmy Clausen Scouting Report
By Matt McGuire

Strengths:
Solid size and adequate bulk
Very good arm strength; can fit balls into tight windows
Extremely quick, snappy release
Great accuracy
Nice hip torque on throws
Gets rid of ball quickly
Very decisive with the football
Takes what defense gives him; doesn't force ball/will throw away
Elite football IQ
Great touch
Well versed in NFL offense
Good sense of timing
Will step up/out of pocket
Knows how to read coverage
Sees the entire field; great vision
Very polished for a true junior
Shown outstanding development from freshman to junior season
Extremely intelligent
Ice in his veins; great poise
Mentally tough; plays through pain
Big leader
Confident
Film room rat
Elite intangibles
Good genetics and very well coached
Spent 3.5 years in a West Coast offense


Weaknesses:
Does a poor job of selling play action
Can get lazy with footwork - but has improved this
Not a fluid athlete
Personality might come off as abrasive
Sometimes gets too much air under fade route
Lacks a little pocket awareness

Summary: Jimmy Clausen is a franchise quarterback. He has carried the spotlight since he was a teenager and has surpassed the hype. He has an outstanding skill set with the elite intangibles you see in the great quarterbacks. Clausen isn't fazed by tense situations and has great leadership when the game is on the line. He puts in the hours to be a great quarterback and you see it on tape. Clausen will likely be the first quarterback drafted and is a projected top-five draft pick.

Player Comparison: Kurt Warner. Warner and Clausen both exhibit the same three-quarter release, they get the ball out quickly, and are extremely decisive/intelligent quarterbacks. Clausen has a stronger arm.

"J-Claus" is "Jc6" all over again, just a worse athlete and personality. NO THANK YOU. Anyone that shows up to his signing day in an escalade and bling chain I'll say no to anyday. Let that no good cocky fag go somewhere else.

brncs_fan
12-30-2009, 03:24 PM
"J-Claus" is "Jc6" all over again, just a worse athlete and personality. NO THANK YOU. Anyone that shows up to his signing day in an escalade and bling chain I'll say no to anyday. Let that no good cocky fag go somewhere else.

In Clausen's defense, and I can do that since I was bagging on him 2 pages back, he did go a long way this year in actually trying to be a teammate and you could see him on the sidelines trying to talk to other football players and rally the troops.

frerottenextelway
12-30-2009, 03:31 PM
Clausen should have gone back for his senior season. He would have a much better future as a pro.

Clausen should take the money. He could easily prove himself to be a bust as a Senior and miss out on everything.

brncs_fan
12-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Clausen should take the money. He could easily prove himself to be a bust as a Senior and miss out on everything.

He would get a pass from everyone saying that he was working with a new coach and new system. I think that he could grow more as a player by staying but that is all water under the bridge at this point.

Paladin
12-30-2009, 03:46 PM
Same, same old. *yawn*

rastaman
12-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Ding-Ding-Ding.....Orton ain't the one! It will take an entire team effort despite...I repeat despite Orton to take this team to the playoffs and beyond. Orton is just there for the ride!

Orton's inconsistencies, inaccuracy, limited arm strength, limited pocket presence, limited foot speed, limited mobility all means the entire team must carry this slug in order to win enough games to get into the playoffs.

2010 will be an epic struggle to win 10 plus games with Orton at QB. When it comes to crunch time in Nov/Dec Orton will prove to be a BOAT ANCHOR standing by to sink the offense and defense.

Orton is a Offense/Defense KILLER! He actually helps the opposing team beat the Broncos b/c he's a high maintenance QB and requires an incubator environment to be mediocre.

strafen
12-30-2009, 06:16 PM
You would take croyle over Brandstater?

You took the words right out my mouth. Even worse yet...Tavaris Jackson? :rofl:

Man, I sometimes wondering about if people even think thru before they post...

KipCorrington25
12-30-2009, 06:32 PM
Orton sucks, if he's back all my optimism will be gone.

broncocalijohn
12-30-2009, 06:35 PM
This isn't NE and he isn't so clueless that he won't make a change to make the entire offense better. Simply put, you either change everythign you want to do including your OL and playcalling or you change your QB. Will it be a high draft pick, maybe not.

At this point I'd settle for Brodie Croyle or Tavaris Jackson. Both would be upgrades to the offense as a whole. Perhaps not better passing QBs, but teams would have to account for the QB both running and passing beyond 5 yards. That by itself will open things up for the running game and make life that much easier for the OL. If we go into the draft and free agency and only address the OL we will set this team/franchise back another year.

One of the worst opinions since Rasta learned to type. Come on! Croyle? F ing zero for whatever in wins, Croyle? Please football gods, get this guy a football brain for 2010. Croyle?

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 06:38 PM
Ding-Ding-Ding.....Orton ain't the one! It will take an entire team effort despite...I repeat despite Orton to take this team to the playoffs and beyond. Orton is just there for the ride!

Orton's inconsistencies, inaccuracy, limited arm strength, limited pocket presence, limited foot speed, limited mobility all means the entire team must carry this slug in order to win enough games to get into the playoffs.

2010 will be an epic struggle to win 10 plus games with Orton at QB. When it comes to crunch time in Nov/Dec Orton will prove to be a BOAT ANCHOR standing by to sink the offense and defense.

Orton is a Offense/Defense KILLER! He actually helps the opposing team beat the Broncos b/c he's a high maintenance QB and requires an incubator environment to be mediocre.Well said. I just finished watching the Eagles game again. That deep throw to Marshall in the 4th qtr. was evident of his noodle arm. Marshall had a banged up corner on him and had to almost start walking in order to slow down for the throw that was severely underthrown. Had he thrown it out in front it was a TD. Sure, that's down played on this board...because there are so many Orton Guzzlers here, but it's his limitations at QB that are killing this team.

peacepipe
12-30-2009, 06:45 PM
Well said. I just finished watching the Eagles game again. That deep throw to Marshall in the 4th qtr. was evident of his noodle arm. Marshall had a banged up corner on him and had to almost start walking in order to slow down for the throw that was severely underthrown. Had he thrown it out in front it was a TD. Sure, that's down played on this board...because there are so many Orton Guzzlers here, but it's his limitations at QB that are killing this team. Exactly, he's not a threat to any defense. Their isn't a starting QB(except orton) in the league that couldn't have made that throw for a TD.

rastaman
12-30-2009, 07:30 PM
One of the worst opinions since Rasta learned to type.

So how many days has it been since you learned how to walk upright? Make sure you keep the bandages clean on your knuckles....we wouldn't want any infections to set in.

I look forward to reading your Neanderthal posts and opinions. Keep up the great work...KORG!

rastaman
12-30-2009, 07:36 PM
Well said. I just finished watching the Eagles game again. That deep throw to Marshall in the 4th qtr. was evident of his noodle arm. Marshall had a banged up corner on him and had to almost start walking in order to slow down for the throw that was severely underthrown. Had he thrown it out in front it was a TD. Sure, that's down played on this board...because there are so many Orton Guzzlers here, but it's his limitations at QB that are killing this team.

Agreed. Also recall the deep ball thrown to Scheffler. Orton's Div III weak ass arm managed to not only under throw tos Scheff, the ball was thrown short of low enough for a 5-10 CB to intecept the ball. Scheff is 6-6 and Orton can't even take advantage of his height and mis-match with a 5-10 CB.

The Orton Guzzlers conveniently do not discuss this incident.

Hamrob
12-30-2009, 07:59 PM
Agreed. Also recall the deep ball thrown to Scheffler. Orton's Div III weak ass arm managed to not only under throw tos Scheff, the ball was thrown short of low enough for a 5-10 CB to intecept the ball. Scheff is 6-6 and Orton can't even take advantage of his height and mis-match with a 5-10 CB.

The Orton Guzzlers conveniently do not discuss this incident.This is why our offense is so limited. He's fine from 0-10yds and can hit a 15-20yd'er once in a great while, but anything else...not a chance.

For the record, I'm not a Orton Hater, I think he's a decent backup to have on your team. Your starter goes down and who better to mange a few games for you until your starters back.

But, if Orton is the guy that we're supposed to stake our hopes on for the long term. Screw all these Orton guzzling fools. He's not that guy and we deserve a hell of alot better then what he provides!

Look, I understand that franchise QB's don't grow on trees and your stuck with what you have...but, that doesn't mean we have to settle for average. I want to see us try at least to upgrade.

I would never root against Orton as our QB...but, I don't have to like it either.

BroncoMan4ever
12-30-2009, 11:26 PM
You mean pray for Brandstater. McD is not going to use a high pick on QB. It is not the NE way.

why do so many believe that garbage? the fact that NE doesn't use high draft picks on QBs has nothing to do with them not wanting to use the pick on that position, it has to do with the fact that they have had Brady for almost a decade and there has been no reason to burn a high pick on a QB. all they have done since then is draft backups in the later rounds.

most teams aren't like Dan Reeves and decide to burn a 1st round pick on a QB when you already have a superstar in his prime on the roster.

if McDaniels believes a 1st round QB, be it Bradford, Clausen, Tebow, Sneed, Locker or whoever(praying it isn't Bradford) is the best investment he can make to make this team a competitor he will do it.

Archer81
12-30-2009, 11:29 PM
why do so many believe that garbage? the fact that NE doesn't use high draft picks on QBs has nothing to do with them not wanting to use the pick on that position, it has to do with the fact that they have had Brady for almost a decade and there has been no reason to burn a high pick on a QB. all they have done since then is draft backups in the later rounds.

most teams aren't like Dan Reeves and decide to burn a 1st round pick on a QB when you already have a superstar in his prime on the roster.

if McDaniels believes a 1st round QB, be it Bradford, Clausen, Tebow, Sneed, Locker or whoever(praying it isn't Bradford) is the best investment he can make to make this team a competitor he will do it.


You dare imply that McDaniels uses the best players or will draft or sign the best ones? Shenanigans, I say.

:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
12-30-2009, 11:39 PM
This is why our offense is so limited. He's fine from 0-10yds and can hit a 15-20yd'er once in a great while, but anything else...not a chance.

For the record, I'm not a Orton Hater, I think he's a decent backup to have on your team. Your starter goes down and who better to mange a few games for you until your starters back.

But, if Orton is the guy that we're supposed to stake our hopes on for the long term. Screw all these Orton guzzling fools. He's not that guy and we deserve a hell of alot better then what he provides!

Look, I understand that franchise QB's don't grow on trees and your stuck with what you have...but, that doesn't mean we have to settle for average. I want to see us try at least to upgrade.

I would never root against Orton as our QB...but, I don't have to like it either.

i am a huge Orton supporter, quite possibly the biggest one on this board, however, seeing a lot of these games it is becoming more and more evident to me that as much as a like the guy, he just does not have enough of an arm to help this offense break out.

however on a point of giving an excuse for the guy, when he has good protection he can make every throw necessary, it's just when things breakdown, he can't get a pass off for more than 10-15 yards.

i just look at what will be available in FA, and through the draft, and no one that will be available appears to be a major improvement over Orton. Orton is proven at this point. he is a winner, and we know what we are getting with him. going the rookie route there is that bust factor, and while the last couple years rookie QBs are having success quickly, it isn't the norm. more often than not these guys take at least 2 years before they are good and that is if ever in a lot of cases. and in FA Orton is the best of the class.

it is just a huge gamble replacing the guy. i will root for whoever is taking snaps for the blue and orange, but i personally feel safer with Orton over what might be available next season.


on a side note. a dark horse to consider who may end up in Denver; Brady Quinn. it would not shock me at all if we traded for him. he is a very cheap option with the way Cleveland screwed him on his contract, he is really young and capable of learning this system, and playing for Weis is already somewhat versed in this offense, and if we are going to take a look at a Notre Dame QB i prefer him to Clausen.

BroncoMan4ever
12-30-2009, 11:40 PM
You dare imply that McDaniels uses the best players or will draft or sign the best ones? Shenanigans, I say.

:Broncos:

i know, i am talking crazy. must be getting late.

bronco610
12-31-2009, 12:24 AM
why do so many believe that garbage? the fact that NE doesn't use high draft picks on QBs has nothing to do with them not wanting to use the pick on that position, it has to do with the fact that they have had Brady for almost a decade and there has been no reason to burn a high pick on a QB. all they have done since then is draft backups in the later rounds.

most teams aren't like Dan Reeves and decide to burn a 1st round pick on a QB when you already have a superstar in his prime on the roster.

if McDaniels believes a 1st round QB, be it Bradford, Clausen, Tebow, Sneed, Locker or whoever(praying it isn't Bradford) is the best investment he can make to make this team a competitor he will do it.

Dont forget post 45
Another reason for passing on a QB this year is the possibility of a new agreement between the players and the leage of a rookie pay scale. This maybe the last year of the mega contracts to unproven QB's.
Why take the money risk?

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 06:19 AM
i am a huge Orton supporter, quite possibly the biggest one on this board,

2nd biggest :strong:

MOCRUSH
12-31-2009, 08:57 AM
I just don't want another guy with an attitude running this team....it says a lot that he got punched in the face on his own campus.

most QBs are heroes on campus...

Career record v. Navy @ Notre Dame.....0-2 now that's getting punched in the face on your own campus. Max FAIL

Broncos_OTM
12-31-2009, 09:03 AM
I think Denver really needs to focus on building in the trenches. When he gets those fixed then you draft a QB. You dont want a rookie running for his life. we have seen it a billlion kazilion times. Team drafts Celebrated QB. QB gets killed because he has no line in place. Rookie QB gets tons of anxiety and never fills out his potential. Ruined like a gimped up race horse.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-31-2009, 09:05 AM
i think denver really needs to focus on building in the trenches. When he gets those fixed then you draft a qb. You dont want a rookie running for his life. We have seen it a billlion kazilion times. Team drafts celebrated qb. Qb gets killed because he has no line in place. Rookie qb gets tons of anxiety and never fills out his potential. Ruined like a gimped up race horse.

qft.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 09:42 AM
i am a huge Orton supporter, quite possibly the biggest one on this board, however, seeing a lot of these games it is becoming more and more evident to me that as much as a like the guy, he just does not have enough of an arm to help this offense break out.

however on a point of giving an excuse for the guy, when he has good protection he can make every throw necessary, it's just when things breakdown, he can't get a pass off for more than 10-15 yards.

i just look at what will be available in FA, and through the draft, and no one that will be available appears to be a major improvement over Orton. Orton is proven at this point. he is a winner, and we know what we are getting with him. going the rookie route there is that bust factor, and while the last couple years rookie QBs are having success quickly, it isn't the norm. more often than not these guys take at least 2 years before they are good and that is if ever in a lot of cases. and in FA Orton is the best of the class.

it is just a huge gamble replacing the guy. i will root for whoever is taking snaps for the blue and orange, but i personally feel safer with Orton over what might be available next season.


on a side note. a dark horse to consider who may end up in Denver; Brady Quinn. it would not shock me at all if we traded for him. he is a very cheap option with the way Cleveland screwed him on his contract, he is really young and capable of learning this system, and playing for Weis is already somewhat versed in this offense, and if we are going to take a look at a Notre Dame QB i prefer him to Clausen.Good post. That's all I'm saying...we need to be looking to upgrade. It's not going to be easy and it might not happen right away. Orton may need to be the guy next year. But, we need to be working hard at upgrading the position. Would Brady Quinn be an upgrade. I really don't know. I kind of think he and Orton are comparable QB's, but who knows. I also think there are other guys out there to consider, like Leinart, maybe O'connell etc.

I really think the best we're going to be able to do for next year...is to bring in someone to replace Simms who can compete with Orton. Then we look at the draft to see if there is anyone we like that we can add to the mix or we wait to see what Free-Agents are available in 2011 along with the 2011 draft.

We need to remember that when you turn on that coaching Carousal...and 10-12 new teams get new head coaches....anything can happen. Ala the Cutler trade. New head coaches want their own guy at QB.

Having said that, there will be oppurtunities to upgrade that we're just not able to predict at this time. Who knows...maybe Orton will improve, I just don't think so. Everyone likes to blame the line, but on the deep throws he's had plenty of protection and just can't get the ball there. Also, this dink and dunk offense is designed to his abilities and it's just not working very well. No Offensive Line is going to change that fact.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 09:47 AM
I think Denver really needs to focus on building in the trenches. When he gets those fixed then you draft a QB. You dont want a rookie running for his life. we have seen it a billlion kazilion times. Team drafts Celebrated QB. QB gets killed because he has no line in place. Rookie QB gets tons of anxiety and never fills out his potential. Ruined like a gimped up race horse.I agree. But I still think we need to explore all options to upgrade at QB.

Having said that, I don't think there will be a QB in the draft at #10 that is worth it. I'd use our first round pick on the front 7. Then, I'd draft a guard with our 2nd rounder. although we may be able to upgrade the Oline in free-agency.

TonyR
12-31-2009, 09:48 AM
...a dark horse to consider who may end up in Denver; Brady Quinn. it would not shock me at all if we traded for him.

And the fact that they attempted to trade for him before the season lends this some credence.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 09:52 AM
Also, this dink and dunk offense is designed to his abilities and it's just not working very well. No Offensive Line is going to change that fact.

Ummm, improving the line will improve the running game, which will in turn help the 3rd down conversion %, the red zone scoring and, as a result, the passing. Changing the QB without changing the line won't do anything to help the run game.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-31-2009, 10:07 AM
Ummm, improving the line will improve the running game, which will in turn help the 3rd down conversion %, the red zone scoring and, as a result, the passing. Changing the QB without changing the line won't do anything to help the run game.

Exactly.

Everyone, say it with me: Football is a team sport, and no one player or unit's performance exists in a vacuum.

Complimentary football also means complimentary problems, and there's a chain in effect here.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 10:09 AM
Ummm, improving the line will improve the running game, which will in turn help the 3rd down conversion %, the red zone scoring and, as a result, the passing. Changing the QB without changing the line won't do anything to help the run game.Ummm, maybe we need a better running back (I'm not impressed with Moreno...he likes to dance too much and does not hit the holes) and perhaps we should have been running more ZBS...considering that's what this line was built for?

Ummm, don't you think?

gyldenlove
12-31-2009, 10:14 AM
Isn't it remarkable that we went from having one of the best offensive lines in football and quite possibly the best in franchise history (from a statistical view) to having serious problems on the offensive line in 1 year?

Last year everybody was so happy how our offensive line was set for the future, and now it is a major problem. Are you blind to the possibility that the problem is not the offensive line which has proven it can play well, but maybe it is the offensive scheme and the players behind the line?

With largely the same players we gain a lot fewer yards per carry in the run game, we don't convert on 3rd downs and we give up more than twice as many sacks. It would seem to me that the scientific conclusion is that it is not the offensive line causing these things, it is the QB, RB and coaching, because those are the things that changed.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-31-2009, 10:18 AM
Vacuum! ALL POSITIONS ARE ISOLATED FROM ONE ANOTHER!

/rolleyes

SonOfLe-loLang
12-31-2009, 10:33 AM
Isn't it remarkable that we went from having one of the best offensive lines in football and quite possibly the best in franchise history (from a statistical view) to having serious problems on the offensive line in 1 year?

Last year everybody was so happy how our offensive line was set for the future, and now it is a major problem. Are you blind to the possibility that the problem is not the offensive line which has proven it can play well, but maybe it is the offensive scheme and the players behind the line?

With largely the same players we gain a lot fewer yards per carry in the run game, we don't convert on 3rd downs and we give up more than twice as many sacks. It would seem to me that the scientific conclusion is that it is not the offensive line causing these things, it is the QB, RB and coaching, because those are the things that changed.

Thats not accurate because the offensive line was pretty damn good the first 6 games.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 10:38 AM
Ummm, maybe we need a better running back (I'm not impressed with Moreno...he likes to dance too much and does not hit the holes) and perhaps we should have been running more ZBS...considering that's what this line was built for?

Ummm, don't you think?

Moreno is fine. It's not a coincidence that he gains solid yards when he isn't hit by 3 guys in the backfield, and tends not to when he is. You'd dance too if there were no holes created by the OLine and guys were running at you before you could make it to the line.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 10:40 AM
Isn't it remarkable that we went from having one of the best offensive lines in football and quite possibly the best in franchise history (from a statistical view) to having serious problems on the offensive line in 1 year?

Last year everybody was so happy how our offensive line was set for the future, and now it is a major problem. Are you blind to the possibility that the problem is not the offensive line which has proven it can play well, but maybe it is the offensive scheme and the players behind the line?

With largely the same players we gain a lot fewer yards per carry in the run game, we don't convert on 3rd downs and we give up more than twice as many sacks. It would seem to me that the scientific conclusion is that it is not the offensive line causing these things, it is the QB, RB and coaching, because those are the things that changed.

People keep saying this, but it's simply not accurate.

Injuries and age have essentially taken their toll on 4 out of the 5 OLine positions. Do we need to get kupesdad back in here again?

Vegas_Bronco
12-31-2009, 10:41 AM
Here are our options:

Top Quarterbacks

Age as of 9/1/10. All free agents listed here are done so with an optimistic outlook that a new CBA will be agreed upon. Accordingly, only four accrued seasons are necessary to obtain an Unrestricted Free Agency status on this list.
Kyle Orton, Denver Broncos (27)
Losing Orton for the second half against the Redskins and having him forced off the bench against San Diego showed Orton’s real value to Denver, as the offense became anemic with Chris Simms. Without his efficient passing, the Broncos really struggle to put points on the board. It’s surprising the Broncos haven’t already looked to extend Orton who just does a great job leading the offense to long scoring drives. Maybe they’re hoping to get a little more leverage should the CBA fall through, which could allow the Broncos to keep Orton on a restricted tender. If he’s allowed to hit the open market, all hell could break loose. Orton doesn’t carry the aura of a franchise quarterback, but has now managed two different offenses to winning records.
Jason Campbell, Washington Redskins (28)
A big week of 367 yards and 3 touchdowns in the heartbreaker against the Saints a couple weeks back showed Campbell's potential. His numbers are actually improved across the board everywhere from a season ago, except interceptions where his total has doubled in three less games. Campbell has played better over the second half of the season, but it seems like he’s played his way out of Washington, who seems ready to gamble for an elite quarterback than stick with the so-so Campbell. With a number of talented quarterbacks possibly lining up to enter the 2010 NFL Draft, in a best case scenario, Campbell could possibly get a 1-2 year deal to compete as the starter on a quarterback-starved team.
Chad Pennington, Miami Dolphins (34)
Pennington wasn’t finding the same success this year as he had in last year’s great campaign, even before suffering another season-ending injury. His shoulder injury luckily showed no damage to his rotator cuff which has already been operated on twice. He should be able to start throwing again in January, but is unlikely to be retained by the Dolphins where Chad Henne has shown promise as one of the league’s best young quarterbacks. Henne has the arm strength to stretch the defense, something Pennington has always been heavily criticized for lacking. A 33 year-old Chad Pennington coming off a third shoulder injury won’t garner much excitement in free agency, but may have the opportunity to compete for a one-year job on a needy team. Pennington doesn’t have age on his side, the arm strength, or the durability to be considered anything more than a stop-gap solution at this point in his career.
Tarvaris Jackson, Minnesota Vikings (27)
It’ll be interesting to see how a season behind Brett Favre will have changed Tarvaris Jackson. He looked like a player showing gradual improvement with the potential to finally turn the corner this year. Favre’s retirement decision will likely come down to the last moment again and will depend on he and his team’s play down the stretch of the season. If a new CBA isn’t agreed upon, Jackson will become a Restricted Free Agent in which Minnesota will most likely retain him. If not, his decision to stay or leave Minnesota could very well come down to how Favre’s decision turns out, or he could stick it out and go the Aaron Rodgers patience route. Regardless, in the sparing time he’s gotten this year in blowout wins over the Rams and Seahawks, Jackson has completed a high percent and has a 124.0 QB Rating on the year through 15 attempts. Keep in mind he was coming of a preseason rating of 118.4. In limited playing time, the numbers game heavily favors Jackson over the last year.
Kellen Clemens, New York Jets (27)
Drafting Mark Sanchez spelled the end of Kellen Clemens’ future in New York. He was rather disappointing in his duty as a starter, making little progress before this season. If Clemens is satisfied as a career back-up, he could decide to accept a small contract to play behind Sanchez. When he finally got the chance to play in Buffalo, after Sanchez’s injury, Clemens took 3 sacks, threw 2 passes, and ran twice against a tough Bills pass defense in 22 snaps. Against a below average Buccaneers defense, he was only able to muster 111 yards through the air, minimizing mistakes and allowing his defense and running game do the brunt of the work. Clemens didn’t have a particularly great game, but could compete for a starting position on one of the league’s lesser teams if the Jets let him walk. Other Notable Free Agents:

Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh Steelers (35)
Kyle Boller, St. Louis Rams (29)
David Carr, New York Giants (31)
Brodie Croyle, Kansas City Chiefs (27)
Daunte Culpepper, Detroit Lions (33)
Rex Grossman, Houston Texans (30)
Joey Harrington, New Orleans Saints (31)
Jon Kitna, Dallas Cowboys (37)
Matt Moore, Carolina Panthers (26) – Restricted FA
Chris Redman, Atlanta Falcons (33)
Brett Ratliff, Cleveland Browns (25) – Exclusive Rights FA
Troy Smith, Baltimore Ravens (26) – Restricted FA

Source: http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html

Orton looks to be the best on this list! He'll no doubt find a starting job somewhere if it's not in Denver. I like the available Runningbacks next season! We need not draft a single back this draft - puhlllleeeeez no! Let's address the weak areas of the team that cannot be quickly filled by Free Agency...namely QB, Oline, DLine, S and CB spot.

Mr.Meanie
12-31-2009, 10:54 AM
Isn't it remarkable that we went from having one of the best offensive lines in football and quite possibly the best in franchise history (from a statistical view) to having serious problems on the offensive line in 1 year?

Last year everybody was so happy how our offensive line was set for the future, and now it is a major problem. Are you blind to the possibility that the problem is not the offensive line which has proven it can play well, but maybe it is the offensive scheme and the players behind the line?

With largely the same players we gain a lot fewer yards per carry in the run game, we don't convert on 3rd downs and we give up more than twice as many sacks. It would seem to me that the scientific conclusion is that it is not the offensive line causing these things, it is the QB, RB and coaching, because those are the things that changed.

It wasn't a coincidence that our OL last year also happened to stay healthy all year long.

This year age and injury exposed a serious lack of depth on the OL, not to mention a new scheme which not all of the OL are well suited for.

Cito Pelon
12-31-2009, 11:03 AM
This isn't NE and he isn't so clueless that he won't make a change to make the entire offense better. Simply put, you either change everythign you want to do including your OL and playcalling or you change your QB. Will it be a high draft pick, maybe not.

At this point I'd settle for Brodie Croyle or Tavaris Jackson. Both would be upgrades to the offense as a whole. Perhaps not better passing QBs, but teams would have to account for the QB both running and passing beyond 5 yards. That by itself will open things up for the running game and make life that much easier for the OL. If we go into the draft and free agency and only address the OL we will set this team/franchise back another year.

This is the kind of stupidity that makes you a joke.

jhns
12-31-2009, 11:05 AM
It wasn't a coincidence that our OL last year also happened to stay healthy all year long.

This year age and injury exposed a serious lack of depth on the OL, not to mention a new scheme which not all of the OL are well suited for.

That is a good set of excuses for the poor run blocking. It doesn't help explain the pass blocking. First off, zone blocking is a run scheme so the o-line is not changing the pass blocking much. The injury thing doesn't work because the pass blocking has looked the same all season. Orton just takes to long to make decisions, takes way to long on his release, and has no clue how to move in a pocket or manipulate it(which is the moving part I guess).

You guys will run out of excuses eventually. I can point to so many plays that Orton had a perfect pocket and just never stepped into it. I can count a few others that defenders were blocked and he ran into the blocked guy. Then there are the plays that a defender barely touches him as he is half blocked and Orton falls from the small brush of a hand.

There is a reason guys like Kuper and Clady look worse. Age and system is not a factor for them in the pass blocking. The QB is a huge factor.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 11:18 AM
The injury thing doesn't work because the pass blocking has looked the same all season.

That's insanity.

jhns
12-31-2009, 11:21 AM
That's insanity.

What part? Are you saying people haven't complained about it all season or that injury isn't a good excuse? I would say it is a horrible excuse for why the healthy guys lose their individual matchups.

Mr.Meanie
12-31-2009, 11:22 AM
That is a good set of excuses for the poor run blocking. It doesn't help explain the pass blocking. First off, zone blocking is a run scheme so the o-line is not changing the pass blocking much. The injury thing doesn't work because the pass blocking has looked the same all season. Orton just takes to long to make decisions, takes way to long on his release, and has no clue how to move in a pocket or manipulate it(which is the moving part I guess).

You guys will run out of excuses eventually. I can point to so many plays that Orton had a perfect pocket and just never stepped into it. I can count a few others that defenders were blocked and he ran into the blocked guy. Then there are the plays that a defender barely touches him as he is half blocked and Orton falls from the small brush of a hand.

There is a reason guys like Kuper and Clady look worse. Age and system is not a factor for them in the pass blocking. The QB is a huge factor.

Wow. So injury to the stud RT doesn't effect passing plays? Lining up pass rushers over the Center and LG that completely collapse the pocket doesn't effect pass protection?

Whatever.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 11:25 AM
What part? Are you saying people haven't complained about it all season or that injury isn't a good excuse? I would say it is a horrible excuse for why the healthy guys lose their individual matchups.

Loss of Harris and insertion of Polumbus hasn't affected pass blocking?
Kuper's injury(ies) haven't affected his pass blocking?

jhns
12-31-2009, 11:31 AM
Wow. So injury to the stud RT doesn't effect passing plays? Lining up pass rushers over the Center and LG that completely collapse the pocket doesn't effect pass protection?

Whatever.

Again, this has been a problem from week 1. Why do you think Hamilton was benched? Was it from the great play? Was our RT injured at that time? I seem to remember the exact line from last year the first half of the season and they had the same problems you guys are bitching about. Orton holds the ball forever and doesn't work the pocket. No line will protect that. I don't get what you guys are watching. Do you not understand the QBs role with the o-line and how they need to manipulate a pocket?

Also, the middle of our line is not collapsing any more than any other team has it happen. Other teams either take the sacks or have a QB that knows what to do. This acting like it happens 50 times a game is some myth this forum made up to cover for Orton. I'm not sure why. Bronco fans used to demand good QB play.

At least Cutler hurting all of your feelings has taken away Elways shadow.

jhns
12-31-2009, 11:33 AM
Loss of Harris and insertion of Polumbus hasn't affected pass blocking?
Kuper's injury(ies) haven't affected his pass blocking?

Was Harris injured before the first game? What about Kuper?

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 11:36 AM
Was Harris injured before the first game? What about Kuper?

Nope, and this is our point. The line has regressed as the season has worn on. It looked FAR better both in pass blocking and in run blocking during the win streak (I do not subscribe to your theory that it has sucked all season long). It started looking worse around the time Harris went down.

oubronco
12-31-2009, 11:42 AM
Here are our options:

Top Quarterbacks

Age as of 9/1/10. All free agents listed here are done so with an optimistic outlook that a new CBA will be agreed upon. Accordingly, only four accrued seasons are necessary to obtain an Unrestricted Free Agency status on this list.
Kyle Orton, Denver Broncos (27)
Losing Orton for the second half against the Redskins and having him forced off the bench against San Diego showed Orton’s real value to Denver, as the offense became anemic with Chris Simms. Without his efficient passing, the Broncos really struggle to put points on the board. It’s surprising the Broncos haven’t already looked to extend Orton who just does a great job leading the offense to long scoring drives. Maybe they’re hoping to get a little more leverage should the CBA fall through, which could allow the Broncos to keep Orton on a restricted tender. If he’s allowed to hit the open market, all hell could break loose. Orton doesn’t carry the aura of a franchise quarterback, but has now managed two different offenses to winning records.
Jason Campbell, Washington Redskins (28)
A big week of 367 yards and 3 touchdowns in the heartbreaker against the Saints a couple weeks back showed Campbell's potential. His numbers are actually improved across the board everywhere from a season ago, except interceptions where his total has doubled in three less games. Campbell has played better over the second half of the season, but it seems like he’s played his way out of Washington, who seems ready to gamble for an elite quarterback than stick with the so-so Campbell. With a number of talented quarterbacks possibly lining up to enter the 2010 NFL Draft, in a best case scenario, Campbell could possibly get a 1-2 year deal to compete as the starter on a quarterback-starved team.
Chad Pennington, Miami Dolphins (34)
Pennington wasn’t finding the same success this year as he had in last year’s great campaign, even before suffering another season-ending injury. His shoulder injury luckily showed no damage to his rotator cuff which has already been operated on twice. He should be able to start throwing again in January, but is unlikely to be retained by the Dolphins where Chad Henne has shown promise as one of the league’s best young quarterbacks. Henne has the arm strength to stretch the defense, something Pennington has always been heavily criticized for lacking. A 33 year-old Chad Pennington coming off a third shoulder injury won’t garner much excitement in free agency, but may have the opportunity to compete for a one-year job on a needy team. Pennington doesn’t have age on his side, the arm strength, or the durability to be considered anything more than a stop-gap solution at this point in his career.
Tarvaris Jackson, Minnesota Vikings (27)
It’ll be interesting to see how a season behind Brett Favre will have changed Tarvaris Jackson. He looked like a player showing gradual improvement with the potential to finally turn the corner this year. Favre’s retirement decision will likely come down to the last moment again and will depend on he and his team’s play down the stretch of the season. If a new CBA isn’t agreed upon, Jackson will become a Restricted Free Agent in which Minnesota will most likely retain him. If not, his decision to stay or leave Minnesota could very well come down to how Favre’s decision turns out, or he could stick it out and go the Aaron Rodgers patience route. Regardless, in the sparing time he’s gotten this year in blowout wins over the Rams and Seahawks, Jackson has completed a high percent and has a 124.0 QB Rating on the year through 15 attempts. Keep in mind he was coming of a preseason rating of 118.4. In limited playing time, the numbers game heavily favors Jackson over the last year.
Kellen Clemens, New York Jets (27)
Drafting Mark Sanchez spelled the end of Kellen Clemens’ future in New York. He was rather disappointing in his duty as a starter, making little progress before this season. If Clemens is satisfied as a career back-up, he could decide to accept a small contract to play behind Sanchez. When he finally got the chance to play in Buffalo, after Sanchez’s injury, Clemens took 3 sacks, threw 2 passes, and ran twice against a tough Bills pass defense in 22 snaps. Against a below average Buccaneers defense, he was only able to muster 111 yards through the air, minimizing mistakes and allowing his defense and running game do the brunt of the work. Clemens didn’t have a particularly great game, but could compete for a starting position on one of the league’s lesser teams if the Jets let him walk. Other Notable Free Agents:

Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh Steelers (35)
Kyle Boller, St. Louis Rams (29)
David Carr, New York Giants (31)
Brodie Croyle, Kansas City Chiefs (27)
Daunte Culpepper, Detroit Lions (33)
Rex Grossman, Houston Texans (30)
Joey Harrington, New Orleans Saints (31)
Jon Kitna, Dallas Cowboys (37)
Matt Moore, Carolina Panthers (26) – Restricted FA
Chris Redman, Atlanta Falcons (33)
Brett Ratliff, Cleveland Browns (25) – Exclusive Rights FA
Troy Smith, Baltimore Ravens (26) – Restricted FA

Source: http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html

Orton looks to be the best on this list! He'll no doubt find a starting job somewhere if it's not in Denver. I like the available Runningbacks next season! We need not draft a single back this draft - puhlllleeeeez no! Let's address the weak areas of the team that cannot be quickly filled by Free Agency...namely QB, Oline, DLine, S and CB spot.

out of that list Matt Moore looks like the best young option

rastaman
12-31-2009, 11:48 AM
Isn't it remarkable that we went from having one of the best offensive lines in football and quite possibly the best in franchise history (from a statistical view) to having serious problems on the offensive line in 1 year?

Last year everybody was so happy how our offensive line was set for the future, and now it is a major problem. Are you blind to the possibility that the problem is not the offensive line which has proven it can play well, but maybe it is the offensive scheme and the players behind the line?

With largely the same players we gain a lot fewer yards per carry in the run game, we don't convert on 3rd downs and we give up more than twice as many sacks. It would seem to me that the scientific conclusion is that it is not the offensive line causing these things, it is the QB, RB and coaching, because those are the things that changed.

Rep! Nicely explained.

Archer81
12-31-2009, 11:51 AM
Was Harris injured before the first game? What about Kuper?

Week 1-3 sacks allowed
Week 2-0 sacks allowed
Week 3-0 sacks allowed
Week 4-3 sacks allowed
Week 5-2 sacks allowed
Week 6-1 sack allowed
Bye Week
Week 8: 2 scks allowed
Week 9: 2 scks allowed
week 10: 3 scks allowed
Week 11: 3 scks allowed
Week 12: 1 sck allowed
Week 13: 3 scks allowed
Week 14: 3 scks allowed
Week 15: 3 scks allowed
Week 16: 3 scks allowed

First 8 weeks of the year (bye week included) 11 sacks allowed, 6-1 Record.
Last 7 Weeks of the year: 21 sacks allowed, 2-6 record.

We lost Harris in the Cowboys game, and Hamilton was exposed and bench I believe after week 10.

:Broncos:

jhns
12-31-2009, 11:51 AM
out of that list Matt Moore looks like the best young option

Yeah, there aren't many FA options. Even of that list, most won't be available if we have an uncapped year (which is pretty much a guarantee about now). If we are going to improve on the QB position, the best option would be to take advantage of the uncapped rules and keep Orton for another year while we find someone in the draft. I wouldn't want them to just draft any QB, so of course this is only if they like one. It kind of sucks that we have tied ourselves to Orton. If he doesn't get a lot better, I still doubt he will be around long. Rookies could do what he is doing this year.

That article is horrible though. Long scoring drives? What exactly are they watching? We have struggled with points with Orton as well. We haven't come close to the top half of the league this season. How does that work out with what they just wrote?

rastaman
12-31-2009, 11:55 AM
Nope, and this is our point. The line has regressed as the season has worn on. It looked FAR better both in pass blocking and in run blocking during the win streak (I do not subscribe to your theory that it has sucked all season long). It started looking worse around the time Harris went down.

The O line hasn't regressed! They haven't been able to adjust to McD's new scheme. The O line left to McD by Shanny is a ZBS type OL and therefore will require one year of seasoning and experience or McD has seen enough already and will blow up the Shanahan OL and bring in his own players via FA and the draft.

WolfpackGuy
12-31-2009, 11:57 AM
Kyle Orton, Denver Broncos (27)
Losing Orton for the second half against the Redskins and having him forced off the bench against San Diego showed Orton’s real value to Denver, as the offense became anemic with Chris Simms. Without his efficient passing, the Broncos really struggle to put points on the board. It’s surprising the Broncos haven’t already looked to extend Orton who just does a great job leading the offense to long scoring drives. Maybe they’re hoping to get a little more leverage should the CBA fall through, which could allow the Broncos to keep Orton on a restricted tender. If he’s allowed to hit the open market, all hell could break loose. Orton doesn’t carry the aura of a franchise quarterback, but has now managed two different offenses to winning records.


The author of the article has obviously not watched Kyle Orton. AT ALL.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 11:59 AM
The O line hasn't regressed! They haven't been able to adjust to McD's new scheme. The O line left to McD by Shanny is a ZBS type OL and therefore will require one year of seasoning and experience or McD has seen enough already and will blow up the Shanahan OL and bring in his own players via FA and the draft.

INJURIES, COHESION, TRUST - go with kupesdad on this if you don't believe me.

And are you really telling me a unit won't regress when it's starting a certain Mr. Polumbus instead of Harris at right tackle?

jhns
12-31-2009, 12:00 PM
Week 1-3 sacks allowed
Week 2-0 sacks allowed
Week 3-0 sacks allowed
Week 4-3 sacks allowed
Week 5-2 sacks allowed
Week 6-1 sack allowed
Bye Week
Week 8: 2 scks allowed
Week 9: 2 scks allowed
week 10: 3 scks allowed
Week 11: 3 scks allowed
Week 12: 1 sck allowed
Week 13: 3 scks allowed
Week 14: 3 scks allowed
Week 15: 3 scks allowed
Week 16: 3 scks allowed

First 8 weeks of the year (bye week included) 11 sacks allowed, 6-1 Record.
Last 7 Weeks of the year: 21 sacks allowed, 2-6 record.

We lost Harris in the Cowboys game, and Hamilton was exposed and bench I believe after week 10.

:Broncos:

I'm not arguing that we haven't gotten worse. I'm saying the problems were there from the start. You have proven my point. Those first 8 weeks(7 games) tie what we gave up all of last season (16 games). Hamilton got benched. Every individual on the line has looked worse as an individual than they did last year.

I am with everyone else that we need to replace some of the interior line. I just think the QB is a big part of the problem as well and also needs replaced (not just for his lack of ability to work a pocket). A better QB would help the lines pass blocking a LOT. No, I am not saying we need a mobile guy like Vick, since that is how people like to spin it. There are tons of guys that can't run faster than I walk but can still manipulate and move in a pocket.

rastaman
12-31-2009, 12:00 PM
The author of the article has obviously not watched Kyle Orton. AT ALL.

Yeah that isn't the Kyle Orton we have have watched for 16 weeks.

rastaman
12-31-2009, 12:04 PM
INJURIES, COHESION, TRUST - go with kupesdad on this if you don't believe me.

And are you really telling me a unit won't regress when it's starting a certain Mr. Polumbus instead of Harris at right tackle?

Thats your opinion and I respect it. However, I gave my opinion as well. I think both of our opinions are fairly close to the issues with concerning the OL in 2009.

elsid13
12-31-2009, 12:09 PM
INJURIES, COHESION, TRUST - go with kupesdad on this if you don't believe me.

And are you really telling me a unit won't regress when it's starting a certain Mr. Polumbus instead of Harris at right tackle?

You did miss one element that Kuper's dad talked about. That the guys will still struggling with thinking about the blocking assignment then just doing them.

jhns
12-31-2009, 12:13 PM
You did miss one element that Kuper's dad talked about. That the guys will still struggling with thinking about the blocking assignment then just doing them.

Well then McDaniels needs to stop trying to be cute with the blocking. Our line had not played together before last year. It had a rookie (new playbook, system, and new to the NFL) and center that were new to the team. It had a RG that started camp as a LT, moved to RT, and settled at guard in preseason. The only guy that knew his position before last year was Hamilton. They were one of the best last year. Not a good excuse.

Archer81
12-31-2009, 12:14 PM
Yeah that isn't the Kyle Orton we have have watched for 16 weeks.


You must be blind as well as silly then. Some of Kyle's best games have come against elite teams.

Some examples:
vs Dallas: 20/29, 243 yards, 2 tds 0 ints. Rating: 117.5
vs NE: 35/49, 330 yards 2 td 1 int. Rating: 96.7
Vs SD: 20/29, 229 yards, 2 td, 0 int. Rating: 115.4
Vs NYG: 18/28, 245 yards, 1 td, 1 int. Rating: 89.1
Vs Indi: 29/41, 277 yards, 2 td, 1 int. Rating: 95.3
Vs Phil: 27/41, 189 yards, 3 tds, 1 int. Rating: 90.4

Kyle has limits to his game. But he is not the problem on offense.

:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 12:22 PM
You did miss one element that Kuper's dad talked about. That the guys will still struggling with thinking about the blocking assignment then just doing them.

True. I would never claim that learning a new system comes easy and without some struggles. It's just one of the many variables that are at play here.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 12:32 PM
Nope, and this is our point. The line has regressed as the season has worn on. It looked FAR better both in pass blocking and in run blocking during the win streak (I do not subscribe to your theory that it has sucked all season long). It started looking worse around the time Harris went down.Beantown are you just totally unwilling to look at all the facts or just so assinine that you won't open your eyes?

At the beginning of the season, defenses were trying to figure us out. They had no read on McDaniels or this offense. They played us honest.

Then, teams started to catch on. Take away the run...make Orton beat us. Load the box, run blitz and the Broncos can't get it over the top to beat you.

Thus, as the season has dragged on, the entire NFL knows how to beat our Broncos. It's not the line my friend. Sure they can improve...but, they can't block man up and also pick up the LB's on every play.

Go watch that Eagles game and look at the line of scrimmage...those guys were stunting the enite game on 1st and 2nd down...they knew we were going to run and they knew how to take it away.

This is the same crap we saw with Griese, but none of you Orton lovers are willing to admit it. Sure, we need to replace Wiegman because of age and upgrade our left guard situation...but our line isn't the problem.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 12:36 PM
It's not the line my friend.

That, right there, says it all. Create a poll and see how many people choose that option.

Beantown Bronco
12-31-2009, 12:37 PM
Sure, we need to replace Wiegman because of age and upgrade our left guard situation...but our line isn't the problem.

So, you propose replacing 40% of the OLine, but don't think it's a problem? That doesn't even make sense.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 12:37 PM
You must be blind as well as silly then. Some of Kyle's best games have come against elite teams.

Some examples:
vs Dallas: 20/29, 243 yards, 2 tds 0 ints. Rating: 117.5
vs NE: 35/49, 330 yards 2 td 1 int. Rating: 96.7
Vs SD: 20/29, 229 yards, 2 td, 0 int. Rating: 115.4
Vs NYG: 18/28, 245 yards, 1 td, 1 int. Rating: 89.1
Vs Indi: 29/41, 277 yards, 2 td, 1 int. Rating: 95.3
Vs Phil: 27/41, 189 yards, 3 tds, 1 int. Rating: 90.4

Kyle has limits to his game. But he is not the problem on offense.

:Broncos:Kyle Orton is the problem. Sure you can dink and dunk your way to good stats. I remember Brian Griese having a pretty darn good year here. But if you can't test the secondary and make defenses worry about you going over the top on them. Teams will do exactly what they've done this year...take the run away and Make Orton beat you.

First 6 games - 6-0

Bye Week - Teams decide to see if Orton can beat them

Final 10 games - 3-7 (I'm crossing my fingers we beat the Chiefs)

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 12:40 PM
So, you propose replacing 40% of the OLine, but don't think it's a problem? That doesn't even make sense.I think you always have to plan for the future. But let's be fair. Wiegman went to the Probowl last year and everyone was kissing his butt. Now, all of sudden he sucks. Hamilton was the weak link coming into the season...very few lines don't have one. Sure we need to upgrade there...but any team that has two tackles like we do and a quality backup as well at the Tackle position along with a probowl center and up and coming right guard isn't falling apart.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 12:45 PM
Here are our options:

Top Quarterbacks

Age as of 9/1/10. All free agents listed here are done so with an optimistic outlook that a new CBA will be agreed upon. Accordingly, only four accrued seasons are necessary to obtain an Unrestricted Free Agency status on this list.
Kyle Orton, Denver Broncos (27)
Losing Orton for the second half against the Redskins and having him forced off the bench against San Diego showed Orton’s real value to Denver, as the offense became anemic with Chris Simms. Without his efficient passing, the Broncos really struggle to put points on the board. It’s surprising the Broncos haven’t already looked to extend Orton who just does a great job leading the offense to long scoring drives. Maybe they’re hoping to get a little more leverage should the CBA fall through, which could allow the Broncos to keep Orton on a restricted tender. If he’s allowed to hit the open market, all hell could break loose. Orton doesn’t carry the aura of a franchise quarterback, but has now managed two different offenses to winning records.
Jason Campbell, Washington Redskins (28)
A big week of 367 yards and 3 touchdowns in the heartbreaker against the Saints a couple weeks back showed Campbell's potential. His numbers are actually improved across the board everywhere from a season ago, except interceptions where his total has doubled in three less games. Campbell has played better over the second half of the season, but it seems like he’s played his way out of Washington, who seems ready to gamble for an elite quarterback than stick with the so-so Campbell. With a number of talented quarterbacks possibly lining up to enter the 2010 NFL Draft, in a best case scenario, Campbell could possibly get a 1-2 year deal to compete as the starter on a quarterback-starved team.
Chad Pennington, Miami Dolphins (34)
Pennington wasn’t finding the same success this year as he had in last year’s great campaign, even before suffering another season-ending injury. His shoulder injury luckily showed no damage to his rotator cuff which has already been operated on twice. He should be able to start throwing again in January, but is unlikely to be retained by the Dolphins where Chad Henne has shown promise as one of the league’s best young quarterbacks. Henne has the arm strength to stretch the defense, something Pennington has always been heavily criticized for lacking. A 33 year-old Chad Pennington coming off a third shoulder injury won’t garner much excitement in free agency, but may have the opportunity to compete for a one-year job on a needy team. Pennington doesn’t have age on his side, the arm strength, or the durability to be considered anything more than a stop-gap solution at this point in his career.
Tarvaris Jackson, Minnesota Vikings (27)
It’ll be interesting to see how a season behind Brett Favre will have changed Tarvaris Jackson. He looked like a player showing gradual improvement with the potential to finally turn the corner this year. Favre’s retirement decision will likely come down to the last moment again and will depend on he and his team’s play down the stretch of the season. If a new CBA isn’t agreed upon, Jackson will become a Restricted Free Agent in which Minnesota will most likely retain him. If not, his decision to stay or leave Minnesota could very well come down to how Favre’s decision turns out, or he could stick it out and go the Aaron Rodgers patience route. Regardless, in the sparing time he’s gotten this year in blowout wins over the Rams and Seahawks, Jackson has completed a high percent and has a 124.0 QB Rating on the year through 15 attempts. Keep in mind he was coming of a preseason rating of 118.4. In limited playing time, the numbers game heavily favors Jackson over the last year.
Kellen Clemens, New York Jets (27)
Drafting Mark Sanchez spelled the end of Kellen Clemens’ future in New York. He was rather disappointing in his duty as a starter, making little progress before this season. If Clemens is satisfied as a career back-up, he could decide to accept a small contract to play behind Sanchez. When he finally got the chance to play in Buffalo, after Sanchez’s injury, Clemens took 3 sacks, threw 2 passes, and ran twice against a tough Bills pass defense in 22 snaps. Against a below average Buccaneers defense, he was only able to muster 111 yards through the air, minimizing mistakes and allowing his defense and running game do the brunt of the work. Clemens didn’t have a particularly great game, but could compete for a starting position on one of the league’s lesser teams if the Jets let him walk. Other Notable Free Agents:

Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh Steelers (35)
Kyle Boller, St. Louis Rams (29)
David Carr, New York Giants (31)
Brodie Croyle, Kansas City Chiefs (27)
Daunte Culpepper, Detroit Lions (33)
Rex Grossman, Houston Texans (30)
Joey Harrington, New Orleans Saints (31)
Jon Kitna, Dallas Cowboys (37)
Matt Moore, Carolina Panthers (26) – Restricted FA
Chris Redman, Atlanta Falcons (33)
Brett Ratliff, Cleveland Browns (25) – Exclusive Rights FA
Troy Smith, Baltimore Ravens (26) – Restricted FA

Source: http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html

Orton looks to be the best on this list! He'll no doubt find a starting job somewhere if it's not in Denver. I like the available Runningbacks next season! We need not draft a single back this draft - puhlllleeeeez no! Let's address the weak areas of the team that cannot be quickly filled by Free Agency...namely QB, Oline, DLine, S and CB spot.Good post. I agree Orton is probably the best of this crop...does that mean he'd get a starting gig elsewhere. I doubt it very much. I wouldn't mind bringing in a guy like Culpepper to compete. But let's not forget, nobody thought a guy like Cutler would be available either. Things happen. All I'm saying is we need to be sniffing around for a better solution that Orton and if we don't find one...then fine...we let Orton play another year here.

But, if Josh McDaniels settles on Orton for more than one year...he won't be around very long. That's my opinion.

jhns
12-31-2009, 01:12 PM
We need the Elway shadow back. I enjoyed it more when the fans demanded excellence from the QB position. We had our best years when we had a great QB. Just because they are hard to find, doesn't mean you should settle for less. You find them by looking for them. What is crazy to me is that every year the QB becomes more important but Bronco fans are starting to think the opposite. The rule changes are making this a passing league. Orton is not leading, and has not led, a productive offense. You guys settle for mediocrity while some of us and Shefter hope for greatness.

Cool Breeze
12-31-2009, 01:26 PM
Did Kyle Orton improve during his 4yrs in Chicago? They felt so highly about him that they included him as an afterthought in the trade to Denver. Give me a break. He will never be more than average. Quit trying to make him out to be more than he is.

You just spent six pages running around in circles on this issue, only to come up with the same conclusion that informed fans have - Hilarious! Orton is the best option available, and with some upgrades to the team - will work just fine until a suitable replacement comes along.

The only one agreeing with you - Rastaman - is blocked by half of the Maners on here.

This isn't Orton gushing - it is reality and the stats prove it.
If you don't agree, I'd like to hear what viable alternatives you have.
Name calling is the alternative of the weak.

gyldenlove
12-31-2009, 01:28 PM
Thats not accurate because the offensive line was pretty damn good the first 6 games.

In the first 6 games we still allowed more sacks than we did through 13 games last year. In fact we allowed 3 sacks or more last year once. This year, twice through the first 6 games which were the good games.

Here is our red zone offense through the good games:

Week 1: 0 for 0
Week 2: 2 for 5
Week 3: 2 for 5 (not including the end of game drive)
Week 4: 1 for 2
Week 5: 2 for 3
Week 6: 2 for 4

9 for 19 in the red zone when things were working well - that is a 45% success rate, which is exactly what we have for the year and that ranks 26th in the league, behind such teams as Detroit, Kansas City and Carolina and it is a full 9 points below where we were last year in terms of red zone scoring (that makes it about a 20% decrease).

This decrease was before all the injuries (to Ryan Harris).

How pretty damn good was this offensive line? in the first 6 games? it was a lot worse than last year that is how good. Do you want to tell me that has nothing to do with Orton and Mcdaniels?

Vegas_Bronco
12-31-2009, 01:36 PM
The author of the article has obviously not watched Kyle Orton. AT ALL.

I agree...but at least it is a list. I firmly believe Orton is better than most of these because of the system that he is in. Denver has made Orton a decent QB...the kid has a great head on his shoulders, but his physical limitations are well documented and become more obvious as defensive units continue to hone in on his cababilities within McD's offense.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 03:50 PM
You just spent six pages running around in circles on this issue, only to come up with the same conclusion that informed fans have - Hilarious! Orton is the best option available, and with some upgrades to the team - will work just fine until a suitable replacement comes along.

The only one agreeing with you - Rastaman - is blocked by half of the Maners on here.

This isn't Orton gushing - it is reality and the stats prove it.
If you don't agree, I'd like to hear what viable alternatives you have.
Name calling is the alternative of the weak.I'm not name calling...I'm calling a spade a spade (period).

Orton is an average QB. And, yes that may very well be our best option at the moment, but listening to all of you people who defend Orton for his weaknesses is ridiculous.

For any of you to say that Orton is more than average, your ignorance is alarming.

Look, McDaniels felt he could do better without Cutler...fine. Did he really think that Orton was the answer. I certainly don't. We are who we are with Orton...an average team. We need to work hard and exhaust all options to try and upgrade the position...whether it be this year or next...this has to happen.

Now if you agree with that...then I don't have any problem with saying Orton is the best option we have at the moment...but he's average.

Archer81
12-31-2009, 03:56 PM
Kyle Orton is the problem. Sure you can dink and dunk your way to good stats. I remember Brian Griese having a pretty darn good year here. But if you can't test the secondary and make defenses worry about you going over the top on them. Teams will do exactly what they've done this year...take the run away and Make Orton beat you.

First 6 games - 6-0

Bye Week - Teams decide to see if Orton can beat them

Final 10 games - 3-7 (I'm crossing my fingers we beat the Chiefs)


What I find odd is that Orton's style and level of play has not dipped as the season has gone on. He's been consistent. As I said in the post you responded to, he has flaws. I hope we get a QB wih a more explosive game then what Orton brings. He's doing what he can and being 8-7 is clearly not good enough, but to say Orton alone is the problem with the offense is not being honest. Everyone on the offense has to raise their level of play and too many guys are not doing it.

:Broncos:

Cool Breeze
12-31-2009, 04:15 PM
I'm not name calling...I'm calling a spade a spade (period).

Orton is an average QB. And, yes that may very well be our best option at the moment, but listening to all of you people who defend Orton for his weaknesses is ridiculous.

For any of you to say that Orton is more than average, your ignorance is alarming.

Look, McDaniels felt he could do better without Cutler...fine. Did he really think that Orton was the answer. I certainly don't. We are who we are with Orton...an average team. We need to work hard and exhaust all options to try and upgrade the position...whether it be this year or next...this has to happen.

Now if you agree with that...then I don't have any problem with saying Orton is the best option we have at the moment...but he's average.


Kyle Orton, Den 304 485 62.7 3371 6.95 20 9 27 156 89.3

I would love improving on these stats. I just want some improved line play - which helps the running and the passing game.

Out of 32 teams we are middle of the pack - which is indeed average.

gyldenlove
12-31-2009, 05:00 PM
What I find odd is that Orton's style and level of play has not dipped as the season has gone on. He's been consistent. As I said in the post you responded to, he has flaws. I hope we get a QB wih a more explosive game then what Orton brings. He's doing what he can and being 8-7 is clearly not good enough, but to say Orton alone is the problem with the offense is not being honest. Everyone on the offense has to raise their level of play and too many guys are not doing it.

:Broncos:

I am not sure if Orton is the problem or not, but Mcdaniels clearly doesn't trust him to throw the ball downfield so we get saddled with all those bubble screens and slant routes which bunches up the defense and takes away the run game.

If we could stretch the field, either with Orton or someone else we would also be able to run the ball better without having to get new offensive linemen or runningbacks. Simply because we could keep the defense from jamming everybody close to the line.

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 05:35 PM
kyle orton, den 304 485 62.7 3371 6.95 20 9 27 156 89.3

i would love improving on these stats. I just want some improved line play - which helps the running and the passing game.

Out of 32 teams we are middle of the pack - which is indeed average.dink & dunk orton!

Orton = Griese

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 05:36 PM
I am not sure if Orton is the problem or not, but Mcdaniels clearly doesn't trust him to throw the ball downfield so we get saddled with all those bubble screens and slant routes which bunches up the defense and takes away the run game.

If we could stretch the field, either with Orton or someone else we would also be able to run the ball better without having to get new offensive linemen or runningbacks. Simply because we could keep the defense from jamming everybody close to the line.Bingo! Exactly.

So, is it Orton or is it McDaniels? Either way....that's the real reason for our offensive woes!

Hamrob
12-31-2009, 05:40 PM
What I find odd is that Orton's style and level of play has not dipped as the season has gone on. He's been consistent. As I said in the post you responded to, he has flaws. I hope we get a QB wih a more explosive game then what Orton brings. He's doing what he can and being 8-7 is clearly not good enough, but to say Orton alone is the problem with the offense is not being honest. Everyone on the offense has to raise their level of play and too many guys are not doing it.

:Broncos:Listen, I respect your thoughts and opinions...but do you watch the rest of the NFL?

This is a QB driven league. If you have one, you're going to compete. If you don't, you're going to be average. We are average...we do not have a QB who can stretch the field. He can dink and dunk...and defenses know that. that's why they crowd the line of scrimmage...take away the run game and make our Oline look like crap. This is so silly...it's so obvious. Anyone can see that...but the folks on here...that think it's the Oline. I don't care what we do to the Oline. If we keep playing this style of offense, we will be average (period). No offensive line improvement is going to change that. You can't ask you offensive line to be Super Human...it won't happen...you have to make defenses respect your QB.

BroncoMan4ever
01-01-2010, 12:17 AM
Good post. That's all I'm saying...we need to be looking to upgrade. It's not going to be easy and it might not happen right away. Orton may need to be the guy next year. But, we need to be working hard at upgrading the position. Would Brady Quinn be an upgrade. I really don't know. I kind of think he and Orton are comparable QB's, but who knows. I also think there are other guys out there to consider, like Leinart, maybe O'connell etc.

I really think the best we're going to be able to do for next year...is to bring in someone to replace Simms who can compete with Orton. Then we look at the draft to see if there is anyone we like that we can add to the mix or we wait to see what Free-Agents are available in 2011 along with the 2011 draft.

We need to remember that when you turn on that coaching Carousal...and 10-12 new teams get new head coaches....anything can happen. Ala the Cutler trade. New head coaches want their own guy at QB.

Having said that, there will be oppurtunities to upgrade that we're just not able to predict at this time. Who knows...maybe Orton will improve, I just don't think so. Everyone likes to blame the line, but on the deep throws he's had plenty of protection and just can't get the ball there. Also, this dink and dunk offense is designed to his abilities and it's just not working very well. No Offensive Line is going to change that fact.


the thing with Quinn that is amusing to me is, he is a lot like Orton in the leadership, mentality, and intelligence, but he has a stronger arm and he is mobile. that is what i truly believe Orton is missing from his game. even with a weaker arm, if a QB has the ability to break from the pocket and use his legs to make something happen, it helps loosed up the defense. it has similar affects to having a QB with a strong arm.


however right now, if i were the man in charge with the Broncos and getting this roster set up, what i would do is first back a garbage truck of cash up to the front doors of both Marshall and Doom's houses.

as soon as they are locked up, i tender Orton high. i give him the 1st and 3rd round tender. it sets us up awesomely. now if some QB starved team believes Orton is the man they need, we get picks for him and wish him well and thank him for his work this season. but more than likely the 1st and 3rd round investment will be too much and he will remain in Denver for 1 more season on a very reasonable 1 year contract in the 3 million dollar range.

now with this upcoming draft, it is stacked with QBs. Clausen, Bradford, Tebow, McCoy, Sneed, Locker and others who will elevate themselves into 1st round discussion over the coming months. meaning at least 1 of these supposed really good soon to be NFL QBs will still be available to us in the 2nd round, due to either a guy having a mediocre showing at the combine or pro day or simply because teams drafted other need positions and he fell out of the 1st. whatever the reason we will still be able to land 1st round talent at the QB position in the 2nd round.

now seeing that in this scenario we would have Orton for 1 more season on a cheap deal, and a rookie on a 2nd round contract which is also reasonable. we will be in a situation where we have our QBOTF being coached up for a season by McDaniels and primed to take over this team in 2011, while we give Orton 1 more season to audition for a new starting job and don't toss a rookie to the wolves immediately.

BroncoMan4ever
01-01-2010, 12:32 AM
Well then McDaniels needs to stop trying to be cute with the blocking. Our line had not played together before last year. It had a rookie (new playbook, system, and new to the NFL) and center that were new to the team. It had a RG that started camp as a LT, moved to RT, and settled at guard in preseason. The only guy that knew his position before last year was Hamilton. They were one of the best last year. Not a good excuse.

there is a big difference this season as opposed to last season and i has nothing to do with McDaniels being cute with the blocking.

this season age and lack of size and strength caught up with Hamilton and made him the weakest link in the line as well as the same problem with Weigman. them being weaker and not as capable of being able to do the straight ahead power blocking scheme led to the interior of the line beginning to crumble. Now Kuper who is a damn good guard, one of the best young guards in the league is in a very bad situation. with his interior line mates no longer capable of holding up, and then the tackle with whom he has all his chemistry with and knows tendencies of being out with injury it makes his job even more difficult. he is basically in a situation now where he is trying to do his job as well as help Polumbus to his right and then try to help hold up the interior of the line with weaker interior linemen beside him.

injuries, age, and a lack of chemistry between the guys on the line is what has led to the line looking poor at times this year.

don't get me wrong, Hochstein and Polumbus have both performed admirably this season, but neither was a starter for a reason and that reason is showing up in that our pass protection has gone to hell, and we can't run for anything right now.

give Clady, Kuper(if he returns, which i hope he does), and Harris(if he is healed up) some help on the interior with some youth and size and this line will regain form of last seasons.

also, on the subject of last seasons line, it can be said Cutler's mobility helped the line look better than it actually was.

BroncoMan4ever
01-01-2010, 01:03 AM
We need the Elway shadow back. I enjoyed it more when the fans demanded excellence from the QB position. We had our best years when we had a great QB. Just because they are hard to find, doesn't mean you should settle for less. You find them by looking for them. What is crazy to me is that every year the QB becomes more important but Bronco fans are starting to think the opposite. The rule changes are making this a passing league. Orton is not leading, and has not led, a productive offense. You guys settle for mediocrity while some of us and Shefter hope for greatness.

we can't have the Elway shadow back. i loved the Duke, but this is a team that needs to find a new identity and needs to move on from the past.

Bowlen firing Mike last offseason showed he was tired of living in the past and giving a pass to Mike's mediocrity the last decade because of the greatness he displayed years before.

do we need to find a new QB?.....maybe

but, if we do bring in a new QB we can't have them living in the shadow of John. the new QB needs to create his own legacy, not try to live up to the one that John built.

BroncoMan4ever
01-02-2010, 12:09 AM
Ummm, maybe we need a better running back (I'm not impressed with Moreno...he likes to dance too much and does not hit the holes) and perhaps we should have been running more ZBS...considering that's what this line was built for?

Ummm, don't you think?

i think Moreno has been good for us. his numbers aren't great because of the splitting time with Buck, and then starting the season a little behind due to missing preseaosn and time in camp.

but saying the line was built for the ZBS isn't exactly true. Clady, Harris, and Kuper all know how to play in the ZBS, but each can easily do the straight ahead power blocking style of running McDaniels likes. it is the older gentlemen on the interior of the line, who are ZBS specialists because of a lack of strength and size, which leaves them relying on that style of blocking to hide their physical deficiencies, now switching running styles hurt them and then hurt the rest of the line, and hindered Moreno, as well as brought added difficulty upon Orton.

however on your point of getting another RB, i wouldn't be against it. not someone to replace Moreno, because he is going to be a star, but someone to pair with him. look at some of the best running teams in the league, Tennessee and Carolina. both have very high picks invested on 2 RBs for their teams. Johnson and White in Tennessee and Williams and Stewart in Carolina.

now i love Buckhalter and he has been better than i ever thought he would be, i just feel that with him getting older and his injury history, it would not hurt to have another good RB on the roster to chip in and be an eventual replacement to Buck

broncobum6162
01-02-2010, 10:51 AM
i think Moreno has been good for us. his numbers aren't great because of the splitting time with Buck, and then starting the season a little behind due to missing preseaosn and time in camp.

but saying the line was built for the ZBS isn't exactly true. Clady, Harris, and Kuper all know how to play in the ZBS, but each can easily do the straight ahead power blocking style of running McDaniels likes. it is the older gentlemen on the interior of the line, who are ZBS specialists because of a lack of strength and size, which leaves them relying on that style of blocking to hide their physical deficiencies, now switching running styles hurt them and then hurt the rest of the line, and hindered Moreno, as well as brought added difficulty upon Orton.

however on your point of getting another RB, i wouldn't be against it. not someone to replace Moreno, because he is going to be a star, but someone to pair with him. look at some of the best running teams in the league, Tennessee and Carolina. both have very high picks invested on 2 RBs for their teams. Johnson and White in Tennessee and Williams and Stewart in Carolina.

now i love Buckhalter and he has been better than i ever thought he would be, i just feel that with him getting older and his injury history, it would not hurt to have another good RB on the roster to chip in and be an eventual replacement to Buck

I think that to replace the ZBS that has worked well for us and incorporate your own different system just for the sake of change is arrogance pure and simple. Especially given the results this season. Instead, if you have your own system you want to incorporate, why not draft and sign free agents to work toward that and keep the system that is working because of the players that are here and know it. Once you have enough oversized lineman deemed necessary, then make the switch. The existing linemen we have are built for and know the ZBS. We know how this experiment w/ the new system worked out.:cuss:

Hamrob
01-02-2010, 05:01 PM
i think Moreno has been good for us. his numbers aren't great because of the splitting time with Buck, and then starting the season a little behind due to missing preseaosn and time in camp.

but saying the line was built for the ZBS isn't exactly true. Clady, Harris, and Kuper all know how to play in the ZBS, but each can easily do the straight ahead power blocking style of running McDaniels likes. it is the older gentlemen on the interior of the line, who are ZBS specialists because of a lack of strength and size, which leaves them relying on that style of blocking to hide their physical deficiencies, now switching running styles hurt them and then hurt the rest of the line, and hindered Moreno, as well as brought added difficulty upon Orton.

however on your point of getting another RB, i wouldn't be against it. not someone to replace Moreno, because he is going to be a star, but someone to pair with him. look at some of the best running teams in the league, Tennessee and Carolina. both have very high picks invested on 2 RBs for their teams. Johnson and White in Tennessee and Williams and Stewart in Carolina.

now i love Buckhalter and he has been better than i ever thought he would be, i just feel that with him getting older and his injury history, it would not hurt to have another good RB on the roster to chip in and be an eventual replacement to BuckI agree that Kuper, Harris and Clady can adapt well enough to play in the power running game. But, they were all drafted because they fit the ZBS. Clady is your ideal ZBS Tackle...big and fast with great feet. He's struggled at times this year blocking straight ahead. Yeah Wiegman and Hamilton are not cut out for the power running game...they are better at cutting and taking angles. That's my point....why didn't we stick to the ZBS this year and then when you have the personnel you need to go power...then you change it up.

As for Moreno, I'm hoping it's the rookie wall...he just doesn't seem fast out there and is only averaging 3.9 yds a carry with only 2 carries for more than 20yds. I'd love to get a speedy compliment to Moreno. I like Buck too...but you need more then 2 backs anyway...and Jordon needs to go. Not to mention Hillis will probably be gone also.

colonelbeef
01-02-2010, 06:35 PM
if we get Clausen, stock up on Vicodin and Jameson because he has B-U-S-T written all over him

please no

Agree, no to the guy with the frosted hair tips, he has d-o-u-c-h-e stenciled on his forehead.