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Requiem
12-28-2009, 02:59 PM
Offensive Line Statistics
Through Oakland Game

I recently stumbled upon a website called ProFootballFocus.com (http://www.profootballfocus.com) which provides intensive statistical analysis for all positions and aspects of the game. The statistics listed below are only through the Oakland game; however I believe they can shed some insight to our porous play on the line this year. The statistics listed in order are self-explainable. You guys know what sacks, hits and pressures are. What may seem murky to some is the overall grade for the players, which is based on a combination of success in the running game, pass blocking game and plays involving screen blocks; as well as penalties. A positive number would indicate solid performance, negative – bad ones. While I’m not sure how PFF exactly comes up with their formula to grade out, I thought it would be interesting to bring up for you to all analyze.

Chris Kuper, RG – 4 penalties, 3 QB sacks, 3 QB hits, 14 QB pressures (Overall Grade: -1.8)
Ryan Harris, RT – 3 penalties, 1 QB sack, 5 QB hits, 12 QB pressures (Overall Grade: -3.8)
Ryan Clady, LT – 6 penalties, 6 QB sacks, 7 QB hits, 16 QB pressures (Overall Grade: +5.2)
Ben Hamilton, LG – 4 penalties, 3 sacks, 3 QB hits, 12 QB pressures (Overall Grade: -14.7)
Casey Wiegmann, C – 6 penalties, 1 QB sack, 0 QB hits, 15 QB pressures (Overall Grade: -3.3)
Russ Hochstein, LG – 2 penalties, 2 QB sacks, 2 QB hits, 8 QB pressures (Overall Grade: -0.5)
Tyler Polumbus, RT – 0 penalties, 4 QB sacks, 3 QB hits, 12 QB pressures (Overall Grade: -3.8)

Given the information, it is clear why Hamilton was benched. His performance alone was worse than the rest of our players combined. Clady grades out as our most consistent lineman. Based on individual game reports, he was positive in the running game 9 times and passing game 10 times, with only three games in the red overall all season. His worst game was against the Colts, scoring a -4.4 overall mainly due to poor run blocking efforts.
Hochstein, since replacing Hamilton, has the second best grade. With Kuper next, followed my Wiegmann. Our worst line performers were Harris and Polumbus, but given the length of their play, the statistics may have some disparity.

You can check their week by week performances by simply typing their name into the sites form. It'll give you access to everything I provided, and a lot more!

I’m not sure how all the grading works out, but feel free to visit their site to inquire about anything else you may desire. At the very least, this is all food for thought. Hope you enjoyed this. I had to type it twice because my browser crashed once.

But Hamilton, LOL.

Boobs McGee
12-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Very cool website, thanks for the info.

for comparison I checked out the colts line(one of the higher powered passing offenses in the game), and they're all averaging positive numbers, minus their left tackle, and he's so poor because of the run.



I'd really be curious to see how Orton (or anyone, for that matter) would do behind a line that McD handpicks for his protection schemes.

Arkie
12-28-2009, 05:09 PM
The best Bronco players in each game - offense and defense

1 @ Cincinnati - Orton, Bailey
2 Cleveland - Clady, DJ Williams
3 @ Oakland - Buckhalter, DJ Williams
4 Dallas - Marshall, Bailey
5 New England - Orton, A. Davis
6 @ San Diego - Scheffler, Dumervil
7 bye
8 @ Baltimore - Hochstein, A. Davis
9 Pittsburgh - Clady, Haggan
10 @ Washington - Orton, Dumervil
11 San Diego - Polumbus, A. Davis
12 NY Giants - Orton, Dawkins
13 @ Kansas City - Polumbus, DJ Williams
14 @ Indianapolis - Marshall, Goodman
15 Oakland - Orton/Stokley, Holliday

uplink
12-28-2009, 05:14 PM
thanks, this is very interesting

Kaylore
12-28-2009, 05:24 PM
Our line has been owned. Wiegman's close to done, Hamilton seemed to be and Hochstein isn't a starter. Losing Harris hurt a lot too. We need to get bigger up front. That's the bottom line. In fact our whole team is still too small and too finesse. We need more size and physicality.

orinjkrush
12-28-2009, 07:04 PM
man, i wanna puke

HAT
12-28-2009, 07:10 PM
The best Bronco players in each game - offense and defense

1 @ Cincinnati - Orton, Bailey
2 Cleveland - Clady, DJ Williams
3 @ Oakland - Buckhalter, DJ Williams
4 Dallas - Marshall, Bailey
5 New England - Orton, A. Davis
6 @ San Diego - Scheffler, Dumervil
7 bye
8 @ Baltimore - Hochstein, A. Davis
9 Pittsburgh - Clady, Haggan
10 @ Washington - Orton, Dumervil
11 San Diego - Polumbus, A. Davis
12 NY Giants - Orton, Dawkins
13 @ Kansas City - Polumbus, DJ Williams
14 @ Indianapolis - Marshall, Goodman
15 Oakland - Orton/Stokley, Holliday

Game 6....No Royal?

tsiguy96
12-28-2009, 07:17 PM
Game 6....No Royal?

i highly doubt this counts special teams. i think it was oakland game prater was 4/4 on FGs and hes not there.

Greatspirits
12-28-2009, 07:19 PM
Our O-Line has been disappointing, I thought it was going to be our one strengths coming into this season. In the run game, they need to completely ditch the zone scheme and commit to the power game.

WABronco
12-28-2009, 07:22 PM
ZBS linemen and whatever we're trying to do now=not good bed fellows.

Stephen Neal, meh, I guess one could argue that Kuper could be as good. But we don't have a Logan Mankins, that's for damn sure.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 07:28 PM
I'd love to see the formula behind this. How can the guy with the most penalties, sacks allowed, hits allowed and pressures allowed have the highest grade? Obviously other stuff must go into it, but it just looks weird presented like this.

Popps
12-28-2009, 07:42 PM
Great thread, Req. Haven't looked yet, but I'm curious to see how the better lines scored.

kupesdad
12-28-2009, 08:08 PM
I'd love to see the formula behind this. How can the guy with the most penalties, sacks allowed, hits allowed and pressures allowed have the highest grade? Obviously other stuff must go into it, but it just looks weird presented like this.

Looking at the traditional guys in the league who are all pro this system also raises questions in my mind. There are intangibles that I'm sure aren't taken into account and scheme would be one of these things. An example would be that unless you are playing a point of attack scheme, how is gap/hole responsibility assigned? Every single play for every single team against the defense that the play was run against would have to be evaluated. I'm not sure that this is taken into account.

fontaine
12-29-2009, 03:58 AM
Right, so the OL just magically does a whole lot better when Buckhalter plows through the line of scrimmage right? Or when we play more ZBS run plays?

Or when the OL magically starts sucking when Moreno takes the field or when Orton has tripped over and got himself sacked 4-6 times this year?

elsid13
12-29-2009, 05:26 AM
Looking at the traditional guys in the league who are all pro this system also raises questions in my mind. There are intangibles that I'm sure aren't taken into account and scheme would be one of these things. An example would be that unless you are playing a point of attack scheme, how is gap/hole responsibility assigned? Every single play for every single team against the defense that the play was run against would have to be evaluated. I'm not sure that this is taken into account.

It most likely not. It very hard to do true integrated statical analysis of multivariable equation involved. Plus the key point that site like this and football outsider miss is the original play call themselves.

jmz313
12-29-2009, 05:46 AM
Right, so the OL just magically does a whole lot better when Buckhalter plows through the line of scrimmage right? Or when we play more ZBS run plays?

Or when the OL magically starts sucking when Moreno takes the field or when Orton has tripped over and got himself sacked 4-6 times this year?

I agree with this. Running on 1st and 2nd with Buckhalter seems to be no issue. its 3rd and shorts, where we are clearly being controled at LOS. and when Moreno is running. Moreno shares some blame for running game issues. When he gets room, he stumbles, when he needs to be patient he's running into linemans backs.

Orton, sometimes "the throws he doesnt make" are the sacks he shouldn't of taken.

kupesdad
12-29-2009, 05:47 AM
It most likely not. It very hard to do true integrated statical analysis of multivariable equation involved. Plus the key point that site like this and football outsider miss is the original play call themselves.

I know. The value of an analysis such as this is the basic info that can be extracted such as sack count, qb hits and pressures and even some of these are incorrectly attributed.

Play2win
12-29-2009, 05:53 AM
We should just go ahead and make Moreno our new slot man. Moreno looks great catching and running with the ball. Straight rushing plays, not so much.

(I kid, I kid...)

bpc
12-29-2009, 05:56 AM
Clady has had a down year. Harris wasn't having a great year before he got hurt. Polumbus had been okay before he imploded against the Raiders. Kuper has had a season like Clady. Weigmann just doesn't get much push. Left guard has been a black hole.

How did the 2008 Broncos go from giving up 12 sacks combine to 37 in 15 games and it's player generally underachieving across the board?

Logan Mankins is a free agent this year.

elsid13
12-29-2009, 06:21 AM
Clady has had a down year. Harris wasn't having a great year before he got hurt. Polumbus had been okay before he imploded against the Raiders. Kuper has had a season like Clady. Weigmann just doesn't get much push. Left guard has been a black hole.

How did the 2008 Broncos go from giving up 12 sacks combine to 37 in 15 games and it's player generally underachieving across the board?

Logan Mankins is a free agent this year.

Kupesdad kinda already gave us a clue why. The system is over complex and linemen are struggling to adjust and not just playing. Add in lack of mobility in QB spot and bingo.

kupesdad
12-29-2009, 06:34 AM
Clady has had a down year. Harris wasn't having a great year before he got hurt. Polumbus had been okay before he imploded against the Raiders. Kuper has had a season like Clady. Weigmann just doesn't get much push. Left guard has been a black hole.

How did the 2008 Broncos go from giving up 12 sacks combine to 37 in 15 games and it's player generally underachieving across the board?

Logan Mankins is a free agent this year.

After last year the only way they could go was down. Any time a personnel change happens (Harris) (Hamilton) communication on the O-Line suffers so that and a general loss of talent or lack of depth and a much tougher schedule, a quarterback who is less athletic and will take a sack rather than throw an int and a scheme that has virtually no vertical threat so defenses can put 8 or 9 guys in the box and tee off with stunts and blitzes. IMHO this is why our O-Line who everyone on this board would have blown at the beginning of the season are now worthless POS. Logan Mankins is not the end all/be all of offensive linemen. He puts his pants on one leg at a time. This is not directed at you... I just keep hearing about him on this board. Can we afford to sign him with all of the other players we have coming to the end of their contract?

elsid13
12-29-2009, 06:39 AM
After last year the only way they could go was down. Any time a personnel change happens (Harris) (Hamilton) communication on the O-Line suffers so that and a general loss of talent or lack of depth and a much tougher schedule, a quarterback who is less athletic and will take a sack rather than throw an int and a scheme that has virtually no vertical threat so defenses can put 8 or 9 guys in the box and tee off with stunts and blitzes. IMHO this is why our O-Line who everyone on this board would have blown at the beginning of the season are now worthless POS. Logan Mankins is not the end all/be all of offensive linemen. He puts his pants on one leg at a time. This is not directed at you... I just keep hearing about him on this board. Can we afford to sign him with all of the other players we have coming to the end of their contract?

If they wants someone there is always ways to find money to get everyone they want in the NFL.

But people keep thinking that NE is just going to let him walk away are fooling themselves. There will be changes on the line, because that is nature of the NFL, but people need to realize that young decent/good linemen aren't allowed to walk in FA.

bpc
12-29-2009, 06:56 AM
After last year the only way they could go was down. Any time a personnel change happens (Harris) (Hamilton) communication on the O-Line suffers so that and a general loss of talent or lack of depth and a much tougher schedule, a quarterback who is less athletic and will take a sack rather than throw an int and a scheme that has virtually no vertical threat so defenses can put 8 or 9 guys in the box and tee off with stunts and blitzes. IMHO this is why our O-Line who everyone on this board would have blown at the beginning of the season are now worthless POS. Logan Mankins is not the end all/be all of offensive linemen. He puts his pants on one leg at a time. This is not directed at you... I just keep hearing about him on this board. Can we afford to sign him with all of the other players we have coming to the end of their contract?

I tend to shy away from straight blaming the OL. I agree, there was only one way their production could go but I think this is a failure overall by McDaniels once again to put his players in a position to succeed and win. Add into the mix that Orton isn't shaving off 10-15 sacks with his pocket awareness like Jay was, it totally makes sense.

I bring up Logan Mankins because he has had success in this offense and has made the pro bowl. I don't necessarily think he's a better player vs. Clady, Harris or Kuper.

If we are going to run this pass heavy scheme, we're going to need and pick up some guys that can fit and improve the system. Ideally, I would like to add Mankins to our roster but I agree with you... do we have the $$$$?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 07:10 AM
I think it's funny when people try to blame one thing for all the problems on this team. There isn't one problem. Like the team tries to play complimentary football, the problems are complimentary as well.

OL feeds into Orton's shortcomings of needing a solid pocket, Moreno's inability to squeeze through tight (and rapidly closing) holes, etc. That feeds into Orton's inability to get the ball spread around to 2-3-4 options on a regular basis, and almost requires that we run plays like bubble screens to get the ball out of the pocket quickly, especially against pressure. That means less getting the ball downfield because double moves tend to take more time.

it's all complimentary. We're not 8-7 because of one player, one unit.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 07:12 AM
...but I think this is a failure overall by McDaniels once again to put his players in a position to succeed and win.

That's one way to look at it. Another way is to consider that this is a transition year to a new system. Learn it now, or learn it later.

bpc
12-29-2009, 07:18 AM
Well the roster is poch-marked with McDaniels ill-use this year. Between the HB position with Hillis, to Eddie Royal dropping from 100 catches to 37, and then considering the OL, McDaniels had talent to make this offense work this year. He failed in that aspect and it's why we probably won't be making the playoffs this year.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:30 AM
ZBS linemen and whatever we're trying to do now=not good bed fellows.

Stephen Neal, meh, I guess one could argue that Kuper could be as good. But we don't have a Logan Mankins, that's for damn sure.

you Know I keep seeing how people want to be NE . Why is that ? after getting cought cheating just what have they done ...each year they have lost more.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:32 AM
Well the roster is poch-marked with McDaniels ill-use this year. Between the HB position with Hillis, to Eddie Royal dropping from 100 catches to 37, and then considering the OL, McDaniels had talent to make this offense work this year. He failed in that aspect and it's why we probably won't be making the playoffs this year.

thank you there is aleast one damn person who gets it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:welcome:

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:35 AM
tell me a team out there that mocks another team and wins . it don't happen !

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:36 AM
we are the Denver Broncos we have players that can win Now

kupesdad
12-29-2009, 07:36 AM
I tend to shy away from straight blaming the OL. I agree, there was only one way their production could go but I think this is a failure overall by McDaniels once again to put his players in a position to succeed and win. Add into the mix that Orton isn't shaving off 10-15 sacks with his pocket awareness like Jay was, it totally makes sense.

I bring up Logan Mankins because he has had success in this offense and has made the pro bowl. I don't necessarily think he's a better player vs. Clady, Harris or Kuper.

If we are going to run this pass heavy scheme, we're going to need and pick up some guys that can fit and improve the system. Ideally, I would like to add Mankins to our roster but I agree with you... do we have the $$$$?

I think you are right on target. McD didn't get to where he is at by being stupid. He is in a tough position after the debacle of the offseason drama which by no means was entirely his fault. He needed to show the team that he is the last stop as far as decisions and right or wrong he was calling the shots. In order to get the respect and credibility from the team he is going to do some things that will piss some people off. How well this is working I won't comment on so as not to jeapordize (sp?) my son's standing with the team. What I will say is that Chris is happy to be with the Broncos and wasn't happy at all with his game Sunday. I think he now has gotten his worst game behind him ( this is coming from a biased father). I agree that we need some depth and Mankins would be a sweet addition but between Kuper, Mankins and a free agent C/G we will have a ton of money tied up into the OL. I'm not going to go into what I think these guys should get paid but it is definitely more than what they are currently getting. With the status of the CBA all of these guys that were drafted in 06 are taking a huge risk every time they put their foot on the practice or the game field.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 07:38 AM
we are the Denver Broncos we have players that can win Now

Is that why we were .500 the last three seasons? :rofl:


Ah good. Another Jesus Hillis statement. Didn't see him run into the pile and not come out the other side a la Barry Sanders on Sunday, huh? Weird.

BUT HE CAN DO ANYTHING! Actually, he can't.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:42 AM
I have seen Kupers dad state this O iis damn hard to learn ....but for the life of me I see those one yard plung plays on first down and think different... and yes I belive Kupers dad but wonder why they make this basic O so damn hard to learn.

yes systems can be great but you do not throw away a season to do this system no matter what.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm surprised to see that Football Outsiders has Denver's OL ranked 5th overall prior to the Eagles loss. This is using the "adjusted line yards" metric. They're 25th in "power", 21st in "stuffed", and 11th in sacks.

This compares to 1st in adjusted line yards, 10th in power, 3rd in stuffed, and 4th in sacks last year.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

kupesdad
12-29-2009, 07:50 AM
I have seen Kupers dad state this O iis damn hard to learn ....but for the life of me I see those one yard plung plays on first down and think different... and yes I belive Kupers dad but wonder why they make this basic O so damn hard to learn.

yes systems can be great but you do not throw away a season to do this system no matter what.

The thing about it is why do we need to run the same play over and over again when we need 1 yard. If a team fears that we may run play action, belly, option or a freaking tackle eligible they can't put 10 guys on the LOS and grab our rb who hesitates to lower his head or hurdle the OL. GOD I MISS MIKE BELL!!!!!

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:52 AM
Is that why we were .500 the last three seasons? :rofl:


Ah good. Another Jesus Hillis statement. Didn't see him run into the pile and not come out the other side a la Barry Sanders on Sunday, huh? Weird.

BUT HE CAN DO ANYTHING! Actually, he can't.

no you are a one trick poney....

when we were winning we used all of our player ...

teams that win SB use all of there players and this keeps teams on there hills .

What ever happened to our TE's this season .

skpac1001
12-29-2009, 07:52 AM
Is that why we were .500 the last three seasons? :rofl:


Ah good. Another Jesus Hillis statement. Didn't see him run into the pile and not come out the other side a la Barry Sanders on Sunday, huh? Weird.

BUT HE CAN DO ANYTHING! Actually, he can't.

Hillis doesn't have to be Jesus to be better and more consistent then Moreno at this point. Moreno is playing this year about the same way he did last year in college, a couple spectacular games, but most games against good opponents result in 2 yard per carry averages.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 07:52 AM
I agree that we need some depth and Mankins would be a sweet addition but between Kuper, Mankins and a free agent C/G we will have a ton of money tied up into the OL. I'm not going to go into what I think these guys should get paid but it is definitely more than what they are currently getting.

It's a good place to tie up money. The Eagles, for example, have huge money tied up in their O-line. They went out and got Jason Peters and Stacy Andrews this past offseason, and already had a lot of money tied up with Shawn Andrews. When you consider that neither of the Andrews are even contributing what they've done is pretty amazing. They lost their center during the game against the Broncos and hardly missed beat. Quality depth on the O-line pays dividends.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 07:58 AM
you Know I keep seeing how people want to be NE . Why is that ? after getting cought cheating just what have they done ...each year they have lost more.

Just a heads up that NE is 10-5 and has won 3 straight. Peaking at the right time. Check out what Tom Brady had to say after the game:

"We played pretty good today," said Brady. "If we played like that today, I'd love to go against anybody, whether it's the Jaguars or any of these other teams.

Are you going to bet against a confident Tom Brady?

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 07:59 AM
The thing about it is why do we need to run the same play over and over again when we need 1 yard. If a team fears that we may run play action, belly, option or a freaking tackle eligible they can't put 10 guys on the LOS and grab our rb who hesitates to lower his head or hurdle the OL. GOD I MISS MIKE BELL!!!!!

Oh I get why teams can line 10 guys up to stop plays. but most broncos fans want to deny it.

and you are so right. about first down pick ups ...a fullback screen or some kind roll out. thing is we do not utlize our team .

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2009, 08:00 AM
you Know I keep seeing how people want to be NE . Why is that ? after getting cought cheating just what have they done ...each year they have lost more.

18-1 and a SB appearance
11-5 with a backup QB
Another division win and at least one home playoff game this season

Yup, I don't want any part of that kind of success.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 08:00 AM
no you are a one trick poney....

when we were winning we used all of our player ...

teams that win SB use all of there players and this keeps teams on there hills .

What ever happened to our TE's this season .

Well Scheffler dropped two balls on Sunday, so... they're in there, and they're getting the ball.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 08:01 AM
Hillis doesn't have to be Jesus to be better and more consistent then Moreno at this point. Moreno is playing this year about the same way he did last year in college, a couple spectacular games, but most games against good opponents result in 2 yard per carry averages.

skpac1001;2694180 don't wast you time he is trying to bring you to his level .

kupesdad
12-29-2009, 08:01 AM
It's a good place to tie up money. The Eagles, for example, have huge money tied up in their O-line. They went out and got Jason Peters and Stacy Andrews this past offseason, and already had a lot of money tied up with Shawn Andrews. When you consider that neither of the Andrews are even contributing what they've done is pretty amazing. They lost their center during the game against the Broncos and hardly missed beat. Quality depth on the O-line pays dividends.

You don't need to sell me. I just know that we have a bunch of guys at the end of their contracts - QB, OL, DE/LB, TE/WR, WR and 4 of these guys have played at a Pro Bowl level in the last 2 years.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 08:02 AM
Hillis doesn't have to be Jesus to be better and more consistent then Moreno at this point. Moreno is playing this year about the same way he did last year in college, a couple spectacular games, but most games against good opponents result in 2 yard per carry averages.

Yep. And he's a rookie. God forbid we give the guy a couple of seasons to prove himself.

As for Jesus Hillis being so much better... I don't know man. I like him too, but Hillis not playing isn't the cause of our slide, and I don't believe for one second that he's the answer to every problem.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 08:03 AM
Well Scheffler dropped two balls on Sunday, so... they're in there, and they're getting the ball.



once again I said all players and balance .

Old Dude
12-29-2009, 08:04 AM
The stats/evals are interesting.

They show about what I expected in regard to Ben Hamilton. The guy was just getting killed out there, and it showed the most in the Baltimore game. I know there were rumors he was struggling even at the end of preseason with some kind of unspecified injury. I thought he slipped a bit last year and maybe he's just worn out. Before the season started, I would have thought that somewhere down the line, there might have been the possibility of moving him to center when Weigman retires, but I don't see that now.

I am surprised that Polumbus scored so high, because I sure haven't seen it. Earlier in the season, Harris and Graham were able to team up to create some great seal blocks for big running plays around the right tackle. That hasn't happened for quite awhile now. And it also seems like Polumbus is being driven back into Orton's lap on almost every passing play.

Some of it may be a matter of cohesion and timing. A below-average O-Line can play like a very good line when they are all on the same page. And vice versa. And it stands to reason that the more complicated the offense, the more that issue is going to come up.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 08:06 AM
once again I said all players and balance .

And for the record, I agree with you. See my post about complimentary problems.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 08:06 AM
we had more damn weapons then any one team could of defended and used 1/3 of them . there was not one point in the season I thought wow we are really building up to something special . no what I see is we are going to do it this way and it is going to work no matter what .

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 08:10 AM
we had more damn weapons then any one team could of defended and used 1/3 of them . there was not one point in the season I thought wow we are really building up to something special . no what I see is we are going to do it this way and it is going to work no matter what .

And what I see is laying the groundwork for future seasons. I'm honestly okay with that.

Get a few more pieces, add strengths where there are currently weaknesses.

Hard to see after 12 years of the non-rebuild rebuilds we did with Shanahan, but it's in there if you look.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 08:10 AM
yes I am not a Coach but as one you should bring out the best in all your players not a few of them .

skpac1001
12-29-2009, 08:13 AM
Well the roster is poch-marked with McDaniels ill-use this year. Between the HB position with Hillis, to Eddie Royal dropping from 100 catches to 37, and then considering the OL, McDaniels had talent to make this offense work this year. He failed in that aspect and it's why we probably won't be making the playoffs this year.

Unfortunately I think this is spot on. He is a rookie coach who will get better and his free agent and coaching selections have been great, but his offensive work is pretty poor so far despite a lineup loaded with talent. The offense has poor play at some positions, but so do all teams and the coach is supposed adapt to cover for that. I am hoping that it is just getting acclimated to the offense that is the problem, but honestly we should have started seeing much more progress as the season goes on and the schemes and playcalling in the running game do not seem to mesh with the players or outthink the defense at all.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 08:16 AM
And what I see is laying the groundwork for future seasons. I'm honestly okay with that.

Get a few more pieces, add strengths where there are currently weaknesses.

Hard to see after 12 years of the non-rebuild rebuilds we did with Shanahan, but it's in there if you look.

yeah well you did not spend $150mill this season to see a young kid **** on himself .Something tells me our owner is just a bit pissed he lost a home game in the playoffs and doing it to sprint left and option right (the raiders game).

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 08:18 AM
Unfortunately I think this is spot on. He is a rookie coach who will get better and his free agent and coaching selections have been great, but his offensive work is pretty poor so far despite a lineup loaded with talent. The offense has poor play at some positions, but so do all teams and the coach is supposed adapt to cover for that. I am hoping that it is just getting acclimated to the offense that is the problem, but honestly we should have started seeing much more progress as the season goes on and the schemes and playcalling in the running game do not seem to mesh with the players or outthink the defense at all.

Someone actually made a really great observation the other day on sports talk radio (shocking, I know) that McDaniels is now calling plays like a head coach and not an offensive coordinator. As an OC, he had one job: Score points. As a HC, he has several jobs, including worrying about what the defense does, getting field position, etc.

I like McD the head coach. I'd like to see McD hire an OC next season.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-29-2009, 08:19 AM
yeah well you did not spend $150mill this season to see a young kid **** on himself .Something tells me our owner is just a bit pissed he lost a home game in the playoffs and doing it to sprint left and option right (the raiders game).

With all due respect, Crash, neither did you. And I think Bowlen would trade short-term rebuild for long-term success.

skpac1001
12-29-2009, 08:41 AM
Someone actually made a really great observation the other day on sports talk radio (shocking, I know) that McDaniels is now calling plays like a head coach and not an offensive coordinator. As an OC, he had one job: Score points. As a HC, he has several jobs, including worrying about what the defense does, getting field position, etc.

I like McD the head coach. I'd like to see McD hire an OC next season.

That makes sense, it does seem like he is playing not to lose rather then attacking defense like he did in NE.

elsid13
12-29-2009, 08:56 AM
Someone actually made a really great observation the other day on sports talk radio (shocking, I know) that McDaniels is now calling plays like a head coach and not an offensive coordinator. As an OC, he had one job: Score points. As a HC, he has several jobs, including worrying about what the defense does, getting field position, etc.

I like McD the head coach. I'd like to see McD hire an OC next season.

He has OC. The is no need to hire one, just allow him to do his job.

skpac1001
12-29-2009, 08:59 AM
Yep. And he's a rookie. God forbid we give the guy a couple of seasons to prove himself.

As for Jesus Hillis being so much better... I don't know man. I like him too, but Hillis not playing isn't the cause of our slide, and I don't believe for one second that he's the answer to every problem.

I actually like Moreno more now then I did before the draft, I think he will develop into a really good Kevin Faulk/ Westbrook back that McD seems to value so much. For all I know he will turn into a great all around back. I don't think he is being used very intelligently right now though, being thrown into situations he really can't succeed in, and situations which other players have been productive in the past and are suited for.
I agree Hillis wouldn't solve every problem, and maybe not any problem, but I am getting concerned with McD showing Shanny-like stubbornness to prove himself right, and would be happy if he showed a little more flexibility and openness, starting with giving Hillis a fair shake.

Paladin
12-29-2009, 09:54 AM
That makes sense, it does seem like he is playing not to lose rather then attacking defense like he did in NE.

Wouldn't it follow that if an Oline is not performing well, the calls would be more conservative? Isn't that the point of the stats presented above?

bpc
12-29-2009, 09:59 AM
Isn't McD's brother the OC in training? Bwhahahaha. The sure sign of arrogance... nepotism in the work place.

skpac1001
12-29-2009, 10:14 AM
Wouldn't it follow that if an Oline is not performing well, the calls would be more conservative? Isn't that the point of the stats presented above?

Well 7 step drop passes are out for sure. Calling "conservative" plays that run directly into the area that has problems blocking in key situations over and over again, not so much. Besides, you can call plays that account for poor blocking and still challenge defenses, maybe you don't have as many plays to work with, but thats what they pay OC's to be inventive with. I am probably in the minority here, but I like alot of the screen calls McDaniels has used, although the defenses seem to expect them now. Hate to say it, but Shanny's offense was pretty successful at calling plays that emphasized misdirection and deception to cover for sometimes poor blocking.

2KBack
12-29-2009, 10:58 AM
Well 7 step drop passes are out for sure. Calling "conservative" plays that run directly into the area that has problems blocking in key situations over and over again, not so much. Besides, you can call plays that account for poor blocking and still challenge defenses, maybe you don't have as many plays to work with, but thats what they pay OC's to be inventive with. I am probably in the minority here, but I like alot of the screen calls McDaniels has used, although the defenses seem to expect them now. Hate to say it, but Shanny's offense was pretty successful at calling plays that emphasized misdirection and deception to cover for sometimes poor blocking.

This may be an odd thing to say, but I don't think McD has ever had to compensate for an Oline getting owned. The offensive line was a strength in NE his entire career there, and by the time he was calling the plays on a regular basis, the system and players were well established. I think he is smart enough to recognize the problem, but it may take a little time for him to it feel it out.

HEAV
12-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Our line has been owned. Wiegman's close to done, Hamilton seemed to be and Hochstein isn't a starter. Losing Harris hurt a lot too. We need to get bigger up front. That's the bottom line. In fact our whole team is still too small and too finesse. We need more size and physicality.

If you look at the Patriots O-line play the last few weeks...that's the goal. Get bigger (younger) and punishing drive blockers that will control the LOS.

On defense some upgrades would make Dumervil/Haggan/Ayers scary! Still need a solid anchor at the nose.

But as we have talked about the O-line wasn't built for this type blocking/offense scheme. McDaniels had to roll with what he had and try to make it work.

Clady has taken a step back this year. He needs to hit the weight room and get stronger! He got pushed back too often the last few weeks.

~Crash~
12-29-2009, 11:13 AM
Clady has had a down year. Harris wasn't having a great year before he got hurt. Polumbus had been okay before he imploded against the Raiders. Kuper has had a season like Clady. Weigmann just doesn't get much push. Left guard has been a black hole.

How did the 2008 Broncos go from giving up 12 sacks combine to 37 in 15 games and it's player generally underachieving across the board?

Logan Mankins is a free agent this year.

Harris was having one hell of a year power blocking down . he was killing teams

Arkie
12-29-2009, 11:14 AM
i highly doubt this counts special teams. i think it was oakland game prater was 4/4 on FGs and hes not there.

There's another section for special teams. Royal, Woodyard, Larsen, Prater and Berger have been the best special teams players multiple times each.

yavoon
12-29-2009, 11:24 AM
It most likely not. It very hard to do true integrated statical analysis of multivariable equation involved. Plus the key point that site like this and football outsider miss is the original play call themselves.

beats the crap out of random idiots using adjectives.

Arkie
12-29-2009, 11:33 AM
beats the crap out of random idiots using adjectives.

Good point. Emotion generally just gets in the way of objective analysis.

Popps
12-29-2009, 11:33 AM
The stats/evals are interesting.

They show about what I expected in regard to Ben Hamilton. The guy was just getting killed out there, and it showed the most in the Baltimore game. I know there were rumors he was struggling even at the end of preseason with some kind of unspecified injury. I thought he slipped a bit last year and maybe he's just worn out. Before the season started, I would have thought that somewhere down the line, there might have been the possibility of moving him to center when Weigman retires, but I don't see that now.

I am surprised that Polumbus scored so high, because I sure haven't seen it. Earlier in the season, Harris and Graham were able to team up to create some great seal blocks for big running plays around the right tackle. That hasn't happened for quite awhile now. And it also seems like Polumbus is being driven back into Orton's lap on almost every passing play.

Some of it may be a matter of cohesion and timing. A below-average O-Line can play like a very good line when they are all on the same page. And vice versa. And it stands to reason that the more complicated the offense, the more that issue is going to come up.


Great post.

cutthemdown
12-29-2009, 11:49 AM
Our line has been owned. Wiegman's close to done, Hamilton seemed to be and Hochstein isn't a starter. Losing Harris hurt a lot too. We need to get bigger up front. That's the bottom line. In fact our whole team is still too small and too finesse. We need more size and physicality.

This is it right here people. Fields was unable to handle the NT position all by himself and needs help. Our OG just aren't big enough. Maybe Kuper played hurt this yr because he got pushed around quite a bit this yr. Hamilton is done, Wiegman is done and Hochstien should be a bkup/utility olineman.

We need a road grading OG, a new bigger center, and some more size on the dline to help out Fields.

A stud ILB wouldn't hurt either.

skpac1001
12-29-2009, 11:52 AM
This may be an odd thing to say, but I don't think McD has ever had to compensate for an Oline getting owned. The offensive line was a strength in NE his entire career there, and by the time he was calling the plays on a regular basis, the system and players were well established. I think he is smart enough to recognize the problem, but it may take a little time for him to it feel it out.

I think your probably right because he didn't seem to see that there would likely be some problems when you try to get an undersized underpowered zone blocking team to do new tricks. It bugs me a little that he drops or won't use any of our rb's that did well last year, asks the Oline to run block in ways they aren't built for, seems to have diminished the influence of our rb coach, changes from a mobile qb running alot of boots and moving pockets to a slow qb who just drops back, and then calls out the O-line for struggling.

I also think your right that he will figure it out, but I have been pretty disappointed with him as OC this season.

Requiem
12-29-2009, 12:07 PM
Glad you guys enjoyed it. Jahri Evans is the guy I want on this team as a FA next year at left guard. Mankins would be nice too, but Evans has been off the charts this year.

Rabb
12-29-2009, 12:33 PM
I really think Olsen can pan out at OG, he is a hoss and played well at Iowa

cutthemdown
12-29-2009, 03:15 PM
I really think Olsen can pan out at OG, he is a hoss and played well at Iowa

Can he play center?

Requiem
12-29-2009, 03:20 PM
He hasn't had experience there at Iowa, but said he'd be willing to learn and try during interviews at the combine and elsewhere. He can kick out to tackle though too, but I think he's a future G for us.

Paladin
12-29-2009, 03:33 PM
I really think Olsen can pan out at OG, he is a hoss and played well at Iowa

He played RG and RT throughout his career at Iowa. He's 6'5" and 308. Unless he does the weight room stuff, he might even be too small to do what McD wants to do. Maybe he can convert to C, but he has not played that position at all. What I don't inderstand ois why he hasn't played these past two games. He might now with Hochstein out on IR.

I would prefer that they draft a big C unless there is one in FA that makes sense.

Rabb
12-29-2009, 05:47 PM
He played RG and RT throughout his career at Iowa. He's 6'5" and 308. Unless he does the weight room stuff, he might even be too small to do what McD wants to do. Maybe he can convert to C, but he has not played that position at all. What I don't inderstand ois why he hasn't played these past two games. He might now with Hochstein out on IR.

I would prefer that they draft a big C unless there is one in FA that makes sense.

I know, I am a Hawkeye and watch them all the time :)

He can be a good guard, I have no question but you are right about putting on some weight

Ferentz is all about the line, that place is a factory

anyhow, I am biased