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View Full Version : Is this a new generation fan thing? hating your "team" just to be correct?


phillybroncosnut
12-27-2009, 08:16 PM
I remember the wars we had on this board (or it may have been Broncomania board) about brian Griese Debates. Some loved him, some hated him. There really was no in between. You were in one camp or another. They were some heated debates and there was never an agreement on the issue between the divided parties.
That said, one thing I never saw was "gloating" or "I told you so". We all cheered for the Broncos because they were "our" team.

10 years later, instead of Brianna vs "Plan B", its Shanny/Cutler vs McD/Orton. The names have changed and my god, has the attitude changed. Am I the only one that feels people on this board are happy when the broncos struggle just so they can get on here and start stupid ass "I told you so" threads? If I am the only one that views it this way, I apologize for this thread. If I'm not the only one with this opinion, what the hell is wrong with these Broncos "fans"? I dont get it.

I was the biggest anti Brianna guy out there but I would NEVER take happiness in a Broncos loss because it would deem my arguements "correct". Thats a stance I'll never understand. Can anyone shed light on this? Is it an immature generation thing? I can't comprehend the logic.

ant1999e
12-27-2009, 08:22 PM
There are a few posters on here that fit this description.

Kid A
12-27-2009, 08:23 PM
I think it's a "trolls who get off on pissing other people off" thing more than anything. With maybe a dash of "douchebags who mistake being relentlessly negative for 'telling it like it is'."

The internet: Greatest tool for discussion and the sharing of knowledge in history. Greatest enabler of a-holes via anonymity in history.

ant1999e
12-27-2009, 08:28 PM
I think it's a "trolls who get off on pissing other people off" thing more than anything. With maybe a dash of "douchebags who mistake being relentlessly negative for 'telling it like it is'."

The internet: Greatest tool for discussion and the sharing of knowledge in history. Greatest enabler of a-holes via anonymity in history.

It's a shame the mods allow these"trolls" to ruin this once great message board. I guess if you share the feeling of those in control, you can run amok.

phillybroncosnut
12-27-2009, 08:43 PM
Its friggin retarded as hell. My guess is they get ZERO attention from Mommy or Wifey

ant1999e
12-27-2009, 08:44 PM
Its friggin retarded as hell. My guess is they get ZERO attention from Mommy or Wifey

Mommy is more likely.Ha!

Taco John
12-27-2009, 08:45 PM
This happened during the Shanahan era, just not in the same volume that there is right now. Back then it was Wolf playing the part of Broncofan7.

I mean, regardless of what context anyone wants to put around it, we are in the middle of one of the worst collapses in Broncos history. Go to any Broncos forum right now, tune into any Broncos talk show, and you're going to hear a lot of the same stuff.

ant1999e
12-27-2009, 08:54 PM
This happened during the Shanahan era, just not in the same volume that there is right now.

I mean, regardless of what context anyone wants to put around it, we are in the middle of one of the worst collapses in Broncos history. Go to any Broncos forum right now, tune into any Broncos talk show, and you're going to hear a lot of the same stuff.

We have been in a collapse for the last few years. Mediocre seasons. We are now in a rebirth. Young rookie coach without Jesus Crist Cutler leads his team to the same if not a better record than the mastermind and his "pro-bowl" qb. I say the future is bright.
But I guess this explains why the trolls are allowed to ruin this message board.

Popps
12-27-2009, 08:56 PM
I was the biggest anti Brianna guy out there but I would NEVER take happiness in a Broncos loss because it would deem my arguements "correct". Thats a stance I'll never understand. Can anyone shed light on this? Is it an immature generation thing? I can't comprehend the logic.

Absolutely.

Like Meck pointed out... most just aren't fans. But, we've seen some seemingly good fans turn on the team.

The defense is, "you can still be a fan and be critical."

Of course. No one doubts that.

But, there's a wide gap between being constructively critical and being a flat-out troll, posting celebratory threads when we lose.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 08:58 PM
Celebratory trolling is going to happen, although those people are probably pissed just like any fan of the team is. I doubt anybody that bothers to post regularly here is faking being a fan of the team

RhymesayersDU
12-27-2009, 08:58 PM
I remember the wars we had on this board (or it may have been Broncomania board) about brian Griese Debates. Some loved him, some hated him. There really was no in between. You were in one camp or another. They were some heated debates and there was never an agreement on the issue between the divided parties.
That said, one thing I never saw was "gloating" or "I told you so". We all cheered for the Broncos because they were "our" team.

10 years later, instead of Brianna vs "Plan B", its Shanny/Cutler vs McD/Orton. The names have changed and my god, has the attitude changed. Am I the only one that feels people on this board are happy when the broncos struggle just so they can get on here and start stupid ass "I told you so" threads? If I am the only one that views it this way, I apologize for this thread. If I'm not the only one with this opinion, what the hell is wrong with these Broncos "fans"? I dont get it.

I was the biggest anti Brianna guy out there but I would NEVER take happiness in a Broncos loss because it would deem my arguements "correct". Thats a stance I'll never understand. Can anyone shed light on this? Is it an immature generation thing? I can't comprehend the logic.

For the record, not everybody is like this. I was as down as anybody during the pre-season.

Even though the collapse is really disappointing, I thought we'd only win 3 games all year, and am happy to eat whatever crow that will be served.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 09:05 PM
For the record, not everybody is like this. I was as down as anybody during the pre-season.

Even though the collapse is really disappointing, I thought we'd only win 3 games all year, and am happy to eat whatever crow that will be served.

Yeah I thought 5 or 6 wins, the offense played pretty much exactly as I thought it would, but the defense surprised me as I am pretty sure it surprised everyone else.

Better than expected, but with a spry defense playing it's heart out and an improved ST, the offense should and could have been better.

bpc
12-27-2009, 09:15 PM
If a guy sucks, you call it like it is. It doesn't mean you root for him to lose. Hell, I hope Orton wins three, or four super bowls in Denver. Odds that it happens? Not likely.

I liked Jake Plummer. He just had crappy QB skills throwing the ball in the big game. We couldn't beat the good teams in the playoffs because he couldn't go toe to toe with them. Sad but true.

Denver has many areas it needs to improve. QB is just one. No reason to call it anything other than it is.

BTW, I think this may be the worst offensive team i've seen in the last 20 years. They're horrible.

KipCorrington25
12-27-2009, 09:26 PM
People want the team to win, when players here can't get it done it's OK to call them out, this is the NFL afterall. I have faith the staff, scouts etc evaluate talent in the same way, it's not about blind faith it's about W's.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 09:32 PM
People want the team to win, when players here can't get it done it's OK to call them out, this is the NFL afterall. I have faith the staff, scouts etc evaluate talent in the same way, it's not about blind faith it's about W's.



We've lost 7 of our last 9, and I'm taking more criticism than McDaniels is from some of these folks.

phillybroncosnut
12-27-2009, 09:48 PM
People want the team to win, when players here can't get it done it's OK to call them out, this is the NFL afterall. I have faith the staff, scouts etc evaluate talent in the same way, it's not about blind faith it's about W's.

I'm not talking threads of displeasure at certain positions... I'm talking about see mcD is a moron, come eat your crow...

baja
12-27-2009, 09:50 PM
This happened during the Shanahan era, just not in the same volume that there is right now. Back then it was Wolf playing the part of Broncofan7.

I mean, regardless of what context anyone wants to put around it, we are in the middle of one of the worst collapses in Broncos history. Go to any Broncos forum right now, tune into any Broncos talk show, and you're going to hear a lot of the same stuff.



How can we be in a collapse when we have already won more games that most everyone predicted.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 09:52 PM
How can we be in a collapse when we have already won more games that most everyone predicted.


Maybe you missed the part where we lost 7 of our last 9 games. I don't care what anybody's predictions were. I, frankly, think that's a stupid way to judge anything. I think wins and losses are a better way to judge a team.

What are we the Detroit Lions now, that we're basing things on pre-season predictions?

Los Broncos
12-27-2009, 09:52 PM
The "I told you so" thing is getting old real fast.

So of the posters are redundent and it's sickening to see.

They must be loving it right about now.

And Hillis is not the answer at RB.

So don't give us your **** about how he should starting, more passes to him blah blah blah.

baja
12-27-2009, 09:54 PM
Maybe you missed the part where we lost 7 of our last 9 games. I don't care what anybody's predictions were. I, frankly, think that's a stupid way to judge anything. I think wins and losses are a better way to judge a team.

What are we the Detroit Lions now, that we're basing things on pre-season predictions?

I tried to come up with a response but then I decided to mow the lawn in the dark.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 09:55 PM
And Hillis is not the answer at RB.

So don't give us your **** about how he should starting, more passes to him blah blah blah.


Not sure how Hillis's one solo carry did anything to help this point out. Or Moreno's 9 for 18 yards, for that matter. We didn't even break 100 as a team this week.

Or why that has anything to do with this thread.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 09:55 PM
I tried to come up with a response but then I decided to mow the lawn in the dark.


You're going to get sand in your lawn mower.

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm just sick of mediocrity, plain and simple. Don't care who the players and coaches are I"m just tired of thinking we finally turned the corner only to see the same old shiat! I didn't expect to see a super bowl team this year but I didn't expect to see the same late season collapse again. I think there is enough blame to to go around from the punter all the way to Bowlen.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 09:59 PM
BTW, I think this may be the worst offensive team i've seen in the last 20 years. They're horrible.

They did just score 27 pts against Philly's defense that has averaged giving up only 20 pts per game.

baja
12-27-2009, 09:59 PM
We lost in the last seconds to a very good Philly team in their house. Not bad for a team under a complete rebuild.
Toce John didn't you say you expected 4 to 6 wins

And no we are not the Lions, where did that come from.

Los Broncos
12-27-2009, 10:00 PM
Not sure how Hillis's one solo carry did anything to help this point out. Or Moreno's 9 for 18 yards, for that matter. We didn't even break 100 as a team this week.

Or why that has anything to do with this thread.

Just a little venting going on here.

The game thread was full of it.

Anyways, the bashers are dragging us down.

Paladin
12-27-2009, 10:02 PM
I think it's a "trolls who get off on pissing other people off" thing more than anything. With maybe a dash of "douchebags who mistake being relentlessly negative for 'telling it like it is'."

The internet: Greatest tool for discussion and the sharing of knowledge in history. Greatest enabler of a-holes via anonymity in history.

You're wrong. There are more than several "fans" here who just come to the Board to bash Orton or McD or to gloat on the negatives while trying to portray themsdlves as analitical experts. I have many of them on Iggy, but they keep getting quoted that just makes it more galling. There are also a couple of "one hitters" who are guys that come in to give a short slamming statement and then stand back to see if anyone takes the bait....

I think Montrose and others guys got fed up with the BS and have esentially left the board.

There are some who post their opinions as if they were the last word on the subject. Some are dumb. Some could have something to say if they were at all literate.

Sad to say, this board has deteriorated badly over the past year.....

Taco John
12-27-2009, 10:02 PM
We're not seeing the same late season collapse. This one is far worse than any collapse Shanahan has coached.

And maybe it's to be expected. I just remember all this talk about how this team was built to finish strong, and how things were going to be different and I can't help but noticing that none of that "I just want to see this team finish strong" talk held up.

And those people were doing a lot of "I told you so's" early in the season, and wow, what a coincidence, they're the ones who are complaining the loudest now when the people they were feeding crow to want to turn the tables on them.

But still... While I can understand the inclination to feed someone else crow, I think it's poor form. The bottom line is, we hit the reset button on this franchise. We're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The running game is gone. The o-line scheme, gone. The QB, gone. You name it. This is a team in transition. It's going to take more than one year to reset this franchise.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 10:06 PM
We lost in the last seconds to a very good Philly team in their house. Not bad for a team under a complete rebuild.
Toce John didn't you say you expected 4 to 6 wins

And no we are not the Lions, where did that come from.

No I expected 9 to 10 wins. You can go back and check. I talked about our division and the fact that we still had a solid core, regardless of the coaching change.

Paladin
12-27-2009, 10:09 PM
They did just score 27 pts against Philly's defense that has averaged giving up only 20 pts per game.

I absolutley, totally agree with this. Not bad for the "worse offensive team in 20 years", eh?

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 10:10 PM
The off-season was hard. Good posters went to both sides of the camps. After a off-season of fighting between ourselves we got off to a hot start. The pro McD side started calling everyone out telling the Cutler/Shanahan side to eat crow. Then the losing started and the other side fired back. It's a epic let down and it hurts on so many levels. Winning might cure everything but suffering back to back heart breaking let downs is going to push fans over the edge. Then you have to factor in lord knows who makes up accounts to stir people up and piss people off. Too many good posters get ran off for all sorts of reasons but never have I seen so many good posters leave after one off-season and season. This was a bad year for the mane.

go_broncos
12-27-2009, 10:11 PM
I hate this team because we always choke..
I still support and follow..But, it is frustrating to see the same thing being repeated again and again..

Florida_Bronco
12-27-2009, 10:14 PM
I think it's a "trolls who get off on pissing other people off" thing more than anything. With maybe a dash of "douchebags who mistake being relentlessly negative for 'telling it like it is'."

That's EXACTLY what it is.

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 10:15 PM
I think it's a "trolls who get off on pissing other people off" thing more than anything. With maybe a dash of "douchebags who mistake being relentlessly negative for 'telling it like it is'."

The internet: Greatest tool for discussion and the sharing of knowledge in history. Greatest enabler of a-holes via anonymity in history.

True dat. +1 (if I can remember how, it's been so long...)

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 10:20 PM
I have many of them on Iggy, but they keep getting quoted that just makes it more galling. There are also a couple of "one hitters" who are guys that come in to give a short slamming statement and then stand back to see if anyone takes the bait....


(If you use Firefox, look up the FFVB plugin. When you put somebody on ignore on the control panel for that plugin, they completely drop out of existence. No quotes, no threads, no nothing. It's great.)

Florida_Bronco
12-27-2009, 10:25 PM
(If you use Firefox, look up the FFVB plugin. When you put somebody on ignore on the control panel for that plugin, they completely drop out of existence. No quotes, no threads, no nothing. It's great.)

Wow!

THANK YOU!

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 10:26 PM
This season has been a rollercoaster, that's for sure! Livin in Indiana w/ all the Colts fans whoopin it up. I tell them, enjoy these days cause when Manning's gone your gonna have a dry spell. Boy has it been true for us. You can blame the coach, the players, the owner and the refs but if you got a good team it doesn't matter. Good teams make their own breaks and get way too lucky at times. We used to have that but that was then and this is now. (Heavy sigh)

Pony Boy
12-27-2009, 10:46 PM
I really don't see what the big deal is, I can read a title of a thread and see if I want to click on it or not. A guy can be a true Bronco's fan and still post negative remarks about the team, coaches or management. I can chose to read it or ignore it and go on to the next post. As my wife would say "just pull your big girl panties up and get over it".

Taco John
12-27-2009, 10:49 PM
I really don't see what the big deal is, I can read a title of a thread and see if I want to click on it or not. A guy can be a true Bronco's fan and still post negative remarks about the team, coaches or management. I can chose to read it or ignore it and go on to the next post. As my wife would say "just pull your big girl panties up and get over it".


Bolded says it all to me. But some people can't handle that and want to amplify the negative remarks by responding to them. Have five or six posters responding to a negative remark, and all they do is make that negative remark that much louder.

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 10:53 PM
I can chose to read it or ignore it and go on to the next post. As my wife would say "just pull your big girl panties up and get over it".

True, PB, but I think of some of our "most beloved posters" pretty much the same as Beelzebug: you know, that mosquito flying around your bedroom in the middle of the night. You can hear the annoying buzzy whine of its wings, and you know that sooner or later it will try to bite, too. I could just ignore the bug and the noise... but why should I, when there's an electronic bugzapper readily available?

Pony Boy
12-27-2009, 11:26 PM
True, PB, but I think of some of our "most beloved posters" pretty much the same as Beelzebug: you know, that mosquito flying around your bedroom in the middle of the night. You can hear the annoying buzzy whine of its wings, and you know that sooner or later it will try to bite, too. I could just ignore the bug and the noise... but why should I, when there's an electronic bugzapper readily available?

"Fair enough" but I'm just not the bugzapper type, I just ignore them or let them bit me no big deal, it will only itch for a little while....

bpc
12-27-2009, 11:30 PM
They did just score 27 pts against Philly's defense that has averaged giving up only 20 pts per game.

And? How many points off turnovers?

Spin this however you like. You love Orton too. Big surprise. 0 1st downs in the first quarter.

This offense sucks donkey dick. It's not all Orton's fault. It's a group effort. OL isn't getting it done. WR's aren't getting it done. Runningbacks aren't getting it done. The playcalling is horrendous and finesse.

Whatever.

I remember Maddox and Shawn Moore guiding the 92 Broncos with more efficiency than this crap going on.

Kyle Orton isn't a quality winning starting QB in this league. Spin it all you like. The reason we've bombed a 6-0 record is because of this offense.

Popps
12-27-2009, 11:36 PM
I remember Maddox and Shawn Moore guiding the 92 Broncos . .

We almost beat the Cowboys with that combo.

Popps
12-27-2009, 11:38 PM
The offense does need to improve. No question.

I'm just not sure it's as easy as people think to go out and improve over what we have right now. You saw this team fall apart without Orton. He might just be a little better than a lot of people realize.

But, I'm fine with an improvement as soon as I hear what that improvement will be.

I heard Jay Cutler would improve our team, and we got worse every year after he took over.

So, sure... I'm all for upgrades. Just let me know what that upgrade is going to be.

What I AM sure of, is that we can do better on the O-line, immediately. We need at least two new starters, and maybe a guy to play RT who can stay on the field.

steeledude
12-27-2009, 11:44 PM
We have been in a collapse for the last few years. Mediocre seasons. We are now in a rebirth. Young rookie coach without Jesus Crist Cutler leads his team to the same if not a better record than the mastermind and his "pro-bowl" qb. I say the future is bright.
But I guess this explains why the trolls are allowed to ruin this message board.

McChrist is such a better savior. He's a jerk like Cutler but you can't directly pin anything on him.

Clockwork Orange
12-27-2009, 11:56 PM
This happened because Brian Griese was the QB.
This happened because Jake Plummer was the QB.
This happened because Jay Cutler was the QB.
This happened because Mike Shanahan was the head coach.
This is happening now because Josh McDaniels is the head coach.

This is nothing new.

bpc
12-28-2009, 12:08 AM
The offenses issues are deep. No doubt.

The offensive line is either miscast or slumping. Nobody needs to look any farther than Ryan Clady. He's regressed tremendously. I don't think it's a slamdunk that he's a mult. pro bowl left tackle. It's very much in doubt at this point. Can Ryan Harris get over his injury issues? Chris Kuper has regressed, Weigmann looks old and gets no push, LG is a blackhole right now... I'm willing to account Clady, Harris and Kuper to coaching. Dennison has to go. LG and Center are two areas where we should be accepting resumes right now.

HB's lack gamebreaking ability. Buckhalter is a year older with a lot of milage on his legs. One hopes that Moreno continues to improve. He had a nice catch today. I doubt he dominates games on the ground unless his offensive line does. A backfield mate is needed. Longest run of the year is 45 yds. It speaks volumes about the lack of explosiveness at this position.

WR's are in transition. BMarsh is a free agent. One would assume Denver is going to throw a huge contract his way. We don't know what Eddie Royal is. 100 catches to 36 catches make him look like a bust but I think it has more to do with him being miscast and having a bad QB connection. Gaffney, Stokley are also rans. McKinley hasn't done anything substantial yet and can't really be factored into the equation. I think this unit would benefit greatly from finding a WR who can line up outside and allows Royal to slide into the slot where his speed can be better used. Then again, one has to assume that McDaniels even wants to put Royal at the position in the first place.

We all know the issues surrounding Orton. He's a nice guy. Tries real hard. That doesn't win in the NFL, and it's not getting us any playoff appearances either despite starting 6-0. This is a deep year for QB's in the draft. I don't think we have to go overpay for one in the 1st round but I wouldn't mind us taking a stab round 2-4. Ideally, i would collect QB's like Jon Gruden did in Tampa until we find our guy. I would consider keeping 4 on the active roster next season. I would try to resign Orton at around a 4 million contract for a few years. I would attempt to attain another veteran who has solid skills and starting experience in the NFL... Kellen Clemens and Jason Campbell are two guys who's names have been brought up. Brandstater should be brought along as he has, and we should have another rookie come from this draft. This offense is build for a QB to make plays. Until we find that QB, we're going to be stuck in neutral like we are right now.

Archer81
12-28-2009, 12:15 AM
If a guy sucks, you call it like it is. It doesn't mean you root for him to lose. Hell, I hope Orton wins three, or four super bowls in Denver. Odds that it happens? Not likely.

I liked Jake Plummer. He just had crappy QB skills throwing the ball in the big game. We couldn't beat the good teams in the playoffs because he couldn't go toe to toe with them. Sad but true.

Denver has many areas it needs to improve. QB is just one. No reason to call it anything other than it is.

BTW, I think this may be the worst offensive team i've seen in the last 20 years. They're horrible.


2001's offense was pretty bad.

:Broncos:

bpc
12-28-2009, 12:22 AM
2001's offense was pretty bad.

:Broncos:

Good point. Griese will have thrown more TD's most likely, and losing Eddie Mac for the year killed our passing game.

Rod Smith had an amazing season though 113 catches, 1300 yds and 11 td's.

Archer81
12-28-2009, 12:29 AM
Good point. Griese will have thrown more TD's most likely, and losing Eddie Mac for the year killed our passing game.

Rod Smith had an amazing season though 113 catches, 1300 yds and 11 td's.


McCaffrey and Gary were tough losses for the team to absorb. And Rod was our passing game that year. If he did not get the ball we didnt move the ball at all or score.

:Broncos:

Jason in LA
12-28-2009, 12:30 AM
Both camps are annoying to me. Anybody who roots for the team to lose just so they can be right is just not a fan. A real fan always roots for what is in the best interest of the team, which is winning, even if he doesn't agree with the decision being made. I was critical of the team, and I still am, but I root for them every week. I root for them to prove me wrong, and I was cheering loud when they were early in the season.

The homers can be really annoying as well, because anybody who is not in total agreement with the moves that were made, or has anything critical to say about the team, has to hear a bunch of BS from the homers. The homers made it difficult around here for anybody who was critical of the team during the offseason when they were 6-0. Like, anybody who spoke out about the team wasn't worthy enough to celebrate the team playing so well. That was BS.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. This team isn't anywhere near as bad as some of us thought they would be, and they certainly aren't as good as some made them out to be.

Bronco Yoda
12-28-2009, 04:03 AM
I remember the wars we had on this board (or it may have been Broncomania board) about brian Griese Debates. Some loved him, some hated him. There really was no in between. You were in one camp or another. They were some heated debates and there was never an agreement on the issue between the divided parties.
That said, one thing I never saw was "gloating" or "I told you so". We all cheered for the Broncos because they were "our" team.

10 years later, instead of Brianna vs "Plan B", its Shanny/Cutler vs McD/Orton. The names have changed and my god, has the attitude changed. Am I the only one that feels people on this board are happy when the broncos struggle just so they can get on here and start stupid ass "I told you so" threads? If I am the only one that views it this way, I apologize for this thread. If I'm not the only one with this opinion, what the hell is wrong with these Broncos "fans"? I dont get it.

I was the biggest anti Brianna guy out there but I would NEVER take happiness in a Broncos loss because it would deem my arguements "correct". Thats a stance I'll never understand. Can anyone shed light on this? Is it an immature generation thing? I can't comprehend the logic.

Why not? We still have guys here still fawning over their Cutler posters and wishing him sweet dreams even though we have a draft pick on the line. Next year half of them will be gone anyway converting over fully to full time Bears fans.

Meck77
12-28-2009, 07:15 AM
This happened during the Shanahan era, just not in the same volume that there is right now. Back then it was Wolf playing the part of Broncofan7.


The greatest collapse in Bronco history was the three years we failed to make the playoffs under your hero Cutler.

The raider game I admit was a tough loss but we played Philly tough last night. We didn't give up like we did in the three game slide last year.

With some adjustments this team wins 10 or 11 next season. Spare us the drama Taco. We're a better TEAM then we were last year as a whole.

Tombstone RJ
12-28-2009, 07:26 AM
I'm just sick of mediocrity, plain and simple. Don't care who the players and coaches are I"m just tired of thinking we finally turned the corner only to see the same old shiat! I didn't expect to see a super bowl team this year but I didn't expect to see the same late season collapse again. I think there is enough blame to to go around from the punter all the way to Bowlen.

This time it's different because Shanny is gone. Like it or not, his way of doing things got old and while his teams were never bad, they were never really good or elite post Elway.

McD is in his first year and there has been mega changes to the Broncos. He needs at least 2 more years to turn things around.

My biggest criticism of Shanny is that his teams were the essence of mediocrity and this caused apathy in the fan base, especially at home games. Like it or not, most teams (aside from KC and Oakland) that rebuild go through a couple or really crappy seasons before it all gells. However, this team is going to be 9-7 or 8-8 (I predicted this team would be 8-8 but you don't see me patting myself on the back) and that ain't bad considering all the changes. The defense is 10 times better and the offense is a work in progress. Special teams is still inconsistent. However, overall, this team can make the playoffs next year if the offense can gell and the running game can get fixed.

I just don't understand how people cannot be excited about McD!

Pony Boy
12-28-2009, 09:06 AM
McD is in his first year and there has been mega changes to the Broncos. He needs at least 2 more years to turn things around.

I agree but I don't see things turning around until the QB situation is solved. I think people forget that Orton was not McDaniel’s first choice it was the best he could do after the Cassell fiasco.... It was a disaster for Cassell too except for the money, he may have been a great fit with McDaniel’s in Denver and there wouldn’t of been a learning cure.

oubronco
12-28-2009, 09:07 AM
Both camps are annoying to me. Anybody who roots for the team to lose just so they can be right is just not a fan. A real fan always roots for what is in the best interest of the team, which is winning, even if he doesn't agree with the decision being made. I was critical of the team, and I still am, but I root for them every week. I root for them to prove me wrong, and I was cheering loud when they were early in the season.

The homers can be really annoying as well, because anybody who is not in total agreement with the moves that were made, or has anything critical to say about the team, has to hear a bunch of BS from the homers. The homers made it difficult around here for anybody who was critical of the team during the offseason when they were 6-0. Like, anybody who spoke out about the team wasn't worthy enough to celebrate the team playing so well. That was BS.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. This team isn't anywhere near as bad as some of us thought they would be, and they certainly aren't as good as some made them out to be.

Exactly Rep

HAT
12-28-2009, 10:49 AM
(If you use Firefox, look up the FFVB plugin. When you put somebody on ignore on the control panel for that plugin, they completely drop out of existence. No quotes, no threads, no nothing. It's great.)

And....with less than a week remaining in 2009, SHF swoops in with a late entry for post of the year.

I've never used the iggy feature on any VB board because I'm pretty good at self ignoring 95% of most trolls. I may have to give this a shot for those remaining 5% that exist on a few boards I post at.

Thanks!

SouthStndJunkie
12-28-2009, 10:53 AM
Both camps are annoying to me. Anybody who roots for the team to lose just so they can be right is just not a fan. A real fan always roots for what is in the best interest of the team, which is winning, even if he doesn't agree with the decision being made. I was critical of the team, and I still am, but I root for them every week. I root for them to prove me wrong, and I was cheering loud when they were early in the season.

The homers can be really annoying as well, because anybody who is not in total agreement with the moves that were made, or has anything critical to say about the team, has to hear a bunch of BS from the homers. The homers made it difficult around here for anybody who was critical of the team during the offseason when they were 6-0. Like, anybody who spoke out about the team wasn't worthy enough to celebrate the team playing so well. That was BS.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. This team isn't anywhere near as bad as some of us thought they would be, and they certainly aren't as good as some made them out to be.

Solid take.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 11:01 AM
The greatest collapse in Bronco history was the three years we failed to make the playoffs under your hero Cutler.


Uhhhh, yeah...

Florida_Bronco
12-28-2009, 11:09 AM
The greatest collapse in Bronco history was the three years we failed to make the playoffs under your hero Cutler.

The raider game I admit was a tough loss but we played Philly tough last night. We didn't give up like we did in the three game slide last year.

With some adjustments this team wins 10 or 11 next season. Spare us the drama Taco. We're a better TEAM then we were last year as a whole.

Amen!

_Oro_
12-28-2009, 11:30 AM
We're not seeing the same late season collapse. This one is far worse than any collapse Shanahan has coached.

And maybe it's to be expected. I just remember all this talk about how this team was built to finish strong, and how things were going to be different and I can't help but noticing that none of that "I just want to see this team finish strong" talk held up.

And those people were doing a lot of "I told you so's" early in the season, and wow, what a coincidence, they're the ones who are complaining the loudest now when the people they were feeding crow to want to turn the tables on them.

But still... While I can understand the inclination to feed someone else crow, I think it's poor form. The bottom line is, we hit the reset button on this franchise. We're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The running game is gone. The o-line scheme, gone. The QB, gone. You name it. This is a team in transition. It's going to take more than one year to reset this franchise.

The I just want to see this team finish strong stuff went out the door after we went 6-0. All of a sudden we were 3 or 4 wins away from playoffs. Expectations were raised before the bye, just as teams figured out all they have to do to beat us is send guys through the middle of our O-line.

Throughout this down stretch our team has played really bad and really good but the main thing is they haven't quit. They're staying in the games for the most part. Indy and Philly both got out to early leads and we almost came back. Not to mention both those games were away.

The hate on this team is still stemming from the regime change. If we could
have erased everyone's mind before the season I don't think there'd be
nearly the hate that there is now. The haters were few and far between
when we were 6-0 and now that were at the brink of missing the playoffs
haters start coming out in force. I suppose if we do miss the playoffs
we'll get another wave of I told you so's and what nots. But I'm sure
basically everyone here has played the I told so game before sometime
in life and realized shortly after it doesn't quite as good as you thought it would.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to this offseason because I like the moves
for the most part that McD has made and I'm excited to see how our team
is going to evolve. We're still going to have some problems next year but I think were going to see a much improved team.

oubronco
12-28-2009, 11:44 AM
The I just want to see this team finish strong stuff went out the door after we went 6-0. All of a sudden we were 3 or 4 wins away from playoffs. Expectations were raised before the bye, just as teams figured out all they have to do to beat us is send guys through the middle of our O-line.

Throughout this down stretch our team has played really bad and really good but the main thing is they haven't quit. They're staying in the games for the most part. Indy and Philly both got out to early leads and we almost came back. Not to mention both those games were away.

The hate on this team is still stemming from the regime change. If we could
have erased everyone's mind before the season I don't think there'd be
nearly the hate that there is now. The haters were few and far between
when we were 6-0 and now that were at the brink of missing the playoffs
haters start coming out in force. I suppose if we do miss the playoffs
we'll get another wave of I told you so's and what nots. But I'm sure
basically everyone here has played the I told so game before sometime
in life and realized shortly after it doesn't quite as good as you thought it would.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to this offseason because I like the moves
for the most part that McD has made and I'm excited to see how our team
is going to evolve. We're still going to have some problems next year but I think were going to see a much improved team.

If the offense driven by Orton does anything in the first halfs of those games we possibly could've won but they didn't so here we are

Northman
12-28-2009, 11:50 AM
Maybe you missed the part where we lost 7 of our last 9 games. I don't care what anybody's predictions were. I, frankly, think that's a stupid way to judge anything. I think wins and losses are a better way to judge a team.

What are we the Detroit Lions now, that we're basing things on pre-season predictions?

What did you expect from a first year head coach trying to implement a new system, new players, etc? Or is Bowlen still a gutless drunk?

go_broncos
12-28-2009, 11:53 AM
The I just want to see this team finish strong stuff went out the door after we went 6-0. All of a sudden we were 3 or 4 wins away from playoffs. Expectations were raised before the bye, just as teams figured out all they have to do to beat us is send guys through the middle of our O-line.

Throughout this down stretch our team has played really bad and really good but the main thing is they haven't quit. They're staying in the games for the most part. Indy and Philly both got out to early leads and we almost came back. Not to mention both those games were away.

The hate on this team is still stemming from the regime change. If we could
have erased everyone's mind before the season I don't think there'd be
nearly the hate that there is now. The haters were few and far between
when we were 6-0 and now that were at the brink of missing the playoffs
haters start coming out in force. I suppose if we do miss the playoffs
we'll get another wave of I told you so's and what nots. But I'm sure
basically everyone here has played the I told so game before sometime
in life and realized shortly after it doesn't quite as good as you thought it would.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to this offseason because I like the moves
for the most part that McD has made and I'm excited to see how our team
is going to evolve. We're still going to have some problems next year but I think were going to see a much improved team.


If orton is our QB, our record will be the same(8-8 or 9-7).
He is liability to this team.

watermock
12-28-2009, 12:07 PM
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misturanderson
12-28-2009, 12:47 PM
If the offense driven by Orton does anything in the first halfs of those games we possibly could've won but they didn't so here we are

Same could be said about the defense. Please, a little perspective.

rmsanger
12-28-2009, 01:11 PM
I think the OP hit the nail on the head but maybe you can look at it from a different perspective. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
For many of us we have grown up as Broncos fans and remember the struggles of the 80's & early 90's to build the team around the Duke. We finally got the formula correct by bringing in Shanny, running a ZBS O-line, plug-n-play RBs and a few workhorse WRs & TE that believed in the team.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We spent a better part of this decade with Shanny trying to re-build that formula. Every offseason we would hype up the new picks / FA(s). Get the training camp scoop of the new hot shot rook’s making plays from the guys attending in person (Kaylore?). We drank the Coolaide and bought into the system. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We finally get what we thought was the replacement to Elway; only to have the system ripped out and the creator fired. You replace that with a young HC, send the star QB packing, suspend your stud WR, and draft a 5’ 9” CB with our 2010 #1 pick that leaves a lot of ?’s to be answered.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Many of us had no expectations for this year maybe 3-5 wins. We didn’t believe in the new system and assumed that it would fail. When we won so many straight and beat NE many of the fray started to accept maybe the new system was indeed the correct direction to move in. The passion of Sir Fist-pump against the Patriots was the highlight of the season for me.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ever since we have devolved back into the team we thought we were. Weak running game, poor special teams, and a bend but don’t break D. People feel that failure vindicates their uncertainty in the system. By losing it justifies their position that McD is not the right person to take us back to the Promised Land and that failure will initiate change. I guess it’s sort of like in politics where some nuts hope for a President’s policy to fail so to ensure party change. In the end they end up hoping that there country fails to validate their belief.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 01:14 PM
If the offense driven by Orton does anything in the first halfs of those games we possibly could've won but they didn't so here we are

Weird. Last time I checked, they scored TDs in the first halves of both games.

Steve Prefontaine
12-28-2009, 02:07 PM
Both camps are annoying to me. Anybody who roots for the team to lose just so they can be right is just not a fan. A real fan always roots for what is in the best interest of the team, which is winning, even if he doesn't agree with the decision being made. I was critical of the team, and I still am, but I root for them every week. I root for them to prove me wrong, and I was cheering loud when they were early in the season.

The homers can be really annoying as well, because anybody who is not in total agreement with the moves that were made, or has anything critical to say about the team, has to hear a bunch of BS from the homers. The homers made it difficult around here for anybody who was critical of the team during the offseason when they were 6-0. Like, anybody who spoke out about the team wasn't worthy enough to celebrate the team playing so well. That was BS.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. This team isn't anywhere near as bad as some of us thought they would be, and they certainly aren't as good as some made them out to be.
Spot on. Rep!

Archer81
12-28-2009, 02:19 PM
I just don't understand how people cannot be excited about McD!


He is not Mike Shanahan. Thats the baseline of it all. They did not like that Cutler got traded. They did not like Marshall being suspended, and now most of them latch onto the "injustice" of Hillis not playing. Its a passive way to snipe at the HC without directly criticizing him, which makes no damn sense. Most people are willing to give McDaniels 3 years. Firing him after a single season is stupid. If you want to set the franchise back, thats how you do it. Instability in the FO does it every time.


:Broncos:

DrFate
12-28-2009, 04:06 PM
We are now in a rebirth. Young rookie coach without Jesus Crist Cutler leads his team to the same if not a better record than the mastermind and his "pro-bowl" qb. I say the future is bright.
But I guess this explains why the trolls are allowed to ruin this message board.

Why is someone branded a troll if they disagree with the recent front office moves? People who feel the franchise is moving in the wrong direction (and have the audacity to state it on this board) are called 'trolls' and accosted by the fan police. It really doesn't make sense to me.

Would this be a 'better' board if 100% of the posters said "**** YEAH!! GO BRONCOS!! WOOOOO!!!" And ignored performance?

Taco John
12-28-2009, 04:25 PM
I wonder what it might have been like on a Cowboys forum after Landry was fired and Jimmy Johnson went 1-15.

Arkie
12-28-2009, 04:40 PM
I wonder what it might have been like on a Cowboys forum after Landry was fired and Jimmy Johnson went 1-15.

It would have been a lot worse there. Landry was more of a legend than Shanny, and Jimmy Johnson was more of a loser than McDaniels. It would have been twice as bad. They probably hated the new owner as well.

yerner
12-28-2009, 04:42 PM
Why is someone branded a troll if they disagree with the recent front office moves? People who feel the franchise is moving in the wrong direction (and have the audacity to state it on this board) are called 'trolls' and accosted by the fan police. It really doesn't make sense to me.

Would this be a 'better' board if 100% of the posters said "**** YEAH!! GO BRONCOS!! WOOOOO!!!" And ignored performance?

apparently yes. the broncos will suck and you will like it, sir.

Paladin
12-28-2009, 04:56 PM
The greatest collapse in Bronco history was the three years we failed to make the playoffs under your hero Cutler.

The raider game I admit was a tough loss but we played Philly tough last night. We didn't give up like we did in the three game slide last year.

With some adjustments this team wins 10 or 11 next season. Spare us the drama Taco. We're a better TEAM then we were last year as a whole.

And that includes Orton.....

I don't give a rat's arse if anyone thinks Orton is a street bum. Are there better QBs out there? Probably. How many of them are on the Bronco's team? None. So. Support the team - includiong Orton - or go over to the Bears, or Vikings or wherever you can find your "ideal QB". The constant negativity about Orton is a drag on any effort to post on thei board.

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 05:10 PM
And that includes Orton.....

I don't give a rat's arse if anyone thinks Orton is a street bum. Are there better QBs out there? Absolutely. How many of them are on the Bronco's team? None. So. Support the team - includiong Orton - or go over to the Bears, or Vikings or wherever you can find your "ideal QB". The constant negativity about Orton is a drag on any effort to post on thei board.

Fixed it for you. :P

As to the rest of your post, there's far more negativity and whining on the Mane about the Bears' QB than there is about Orton. Some days there's only a handful of non-Cutler threads on Page One...

Nonetheless, it does appear that while Orton hasn't been abysmal, he really is not the long-term solution at QB. Eventually we'll need to acquire a QBOTF.

tsiguy96
12-28-2009, 05:17 PM
Fixed it for you. :P

As to the rest of your post, there's far more negativity and whining on the Mane about the Bears' QB than there is about Orton. Some days there's only a handful of non-Cutler threads on Page One...

Nonetheless, it does appear that while Orton hasn't been abysmal, he really is not the long-term solution at QB. Eventually we'll need to acquire a QBOTF.

orton has been far from abysmal, hes been like alex smith this year from 49ers but without the lows. hes been consistently consistent. not a gamebreaker, not AWESOME all the time but puts together some drives. i hope hes QB next year while we develop a big QB threat...

rastaman
12-28-2009, 05:25 PM
How can we be in a collapse when we have already won more games that most everyone predicted.

Just b/c the bar of expectations were lowered in terms of predicted wins does not mean the team hasn't had a meltdown after now having gone 2-7 after going 6-0 to start the season.

Point is, the 2009 Broncos aren't really any better than than the 07 or 08 Broncos, especially record wise.

There's no way next year McD can justify winning less than 8 games. With a year under their belts next years Broncos had better win at least 10 games just to show progress.

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 05:27 PM
orton has been far from abysmal, hes been like alex smith this year from 49ers but without the lows. hes been consistently consistent. not a gamebreaker, not AWESOME all the time but puts together some drives. i hope hes QB next year while we develop a big QB threat...

It was acknowledged that he hasn't been abysmal... but the point still stands that he doesn't appear to be the answer to our QB needs on a long-term basis.

Popps
12-28-2009, 05:34 PM
It was acknowledged that he hasn't been abysmal... but the point still stands that he doesn't appear to be the answer to our QB needs on a long-term basis.

Orton is an above average QB this year. Those are the facts, plain and simple.


Cutler is "abysmal." Those are also the facts. Tune into Monday Night Countdown right now, and you'll hear a host of analysts telling you that exact same thing.

I have no idea of Orton is a long-term answer. I suspect he might not be, but I like the guy and I'm pulling for him to prove people wrong.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 05:36 PM
The greatest collapse in Bronco history was the three years we failed to make the playoffs under your hero Cutler.

The raider game I admit was a tough loss but we played Philly tough last night. We didn't give up like we did in the three game slide last year.

With some adjustments this team wins 10 or 11 next season. Spare us the drama Taco. We're a better TEAM then we were last year as a whole.

Well there's always the sophmore jinx. Who the hell knows if we win 10-11 games next year. So many unknowns and intangibles come into to play and we haven't even considered the possible injuries to key players on both sides of the ball. And you never know when teams on your schedule get better or your rivialries get better than you.

But the reality is should the 2009 Broncos not make the playoffs or tie in wins or win more game than the 2008 Broncos....one can fairely admit who knows how the 2009 Broncos would have faired had Shanny not been fired and Cutler not been traded. We will never know now and can only assume and provide an opinion.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 05:38 PM
Orton is an above average QB this year. Those are the facts, plain and simple.


Cutler is "abysmal." Those are also the facts. Tune into Monday Night Countdown right now, and you'll hear a host of analysts telling you that exact same thing.

I have no idea of Orton is a long-term answer. I suspect he might not be, but I like the guy and I'm pulling for him to prove people wrong.

Orton won't take this Bronco team to the SB and its the SB is why you play this game.

He's kinda like a tease that will break your heart in the end after a whirl wind relationship.

I could be wrong of course....but I doubt it.

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 06:09 PM
Orton is an above average QB this year. Those are the facts, plain and simple.


Cutler is "abysmal." Those are also the facts. Tune into Monday Night Countdown right now, and you'll hear a host of analysts telling you that exact same thing.

I have no idea of Orton is a long-term answer. I suspect he might not be, but I like the guy and I'm pulling for him to prove people wrong.

Orton has played better this year than many (including me) expected him to. He can run screens and dink-and-dunk his way down the field. I really don't think anyone views him as the "QBOTF" for the Broncos though... especially not if he wants a new contract involving much more money than what he made this year.

I don't care one iota about the Bears or their QB; they're wearing the wrong shades of orange and blue.

ant1999e
12-28-2009, 09:41 PM
Why is someone branded a troll if they disagree with the recent front office moves? People who feel the franchise is moving in the wrong direction (and have the audacity to state it on this board) are called 'trolls' and accosted by the fan police. It really doesn't make sense to me.

Would this be a 'better' board if 100% of the posters said "**** YEAH!! GO BRONCOS!! WOOOOO!!!" And ignored performance?

There is a big difference between disagreeing with the FO moves and the **** that goes on here. Big difference.

ant1999e
12-28-2009, 09:42 PM
It was acknowledged that he hasn't been abysmal... but the point still stands that he doesn't appear to be the answer to our QB needs on a long-term basis.

Niether was cutler. Get over it already.

ant1999e
12-28-2009, 09:44 PM
Orton has played better this year than many (including me) expected him to. He can run screens and dink-and-dunk his way down the field. I really don't think anyone views him as the "QBOTF" for the Broncos though... especially not if he wants a new contract involving much more money than what he made this year.

I don't care one iota about the Bears or their QB; they're wearing the wrong shades of orange and blue.

Sure, you keep telling yourself that.:~ohyah!:

I do agree orton isn't the qbotf but he is our QB right now.

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 10:10 PM
Niether was cutler. Get over it already.

So? He's gone. Perhaps it isn't me who needs to "get over it already".... (hint: I've been "over it" since April and am not one of the posters who seems to find it necessary to bring his name into every single flipping conversation on this message board).

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 10:12 PM
Sure, you keep telling yourself that.:~ohyah!:

I do agree orton isn't the qbotf but he is our QB right now.

Then why are you quoting me and being so antagonistic if we're in agreement about the Broncos' QB (and the need to eventually acquire a higher-quality one than Orton)? ???

HAT
12-28-2009, 10:29 PM
Nonetheless, it does appear that while Orton hasn't been abysmal, he really is not the long-term solution at QB. Eventually we'll need to acquire a QBOTF.


I don't think anyone has claimed that he is the long term solution as in He'll still be playing in Denver at 35.

But he's the perfect 2-3 year transition for what Denver needs right now. A smart QB who can beat playoff teams if his O-line & defense play well.

Continue upgrading his supporting cast in '10 & '11 and enjoy some playoff football even if they don't win it all.

There is a tidal wave of QB's coming out of the Pac-10 in the next 2-4 years.

It would be a shame to see this team waste a 1st through 3rd rounder on a QB next year unless someone had an epic slide and fell into their lap.

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 10:35 PM
I don't think anyone has claimed that he is the long term solution as in He'll still be playing in Denver at 35.

But he's the perfect 2-3 year transition for what Denver needs right now. A smart QB who can beat playoff teams if his O-line & defense play well.

Continue upgrading his supporting cast in '10 & '11 and enjoy some playoff football even if they don't win it all.

There is a tidal wave of QB's coming out of the Pac-10 in the next 2-4 years.

It would be a shame to see this team waste a 1st through 3rd rounder on a QB next year unless someone had an epic slide and fell into their lap.

The team wouldn't necessarily need to use a high draft pick on an upgraded QB... one could also possibly be acquired via free agency or a trade.

Paladin
12-28-2009, 10:39 PM
I don't think anyone has claimed that he is the long term solution as in He'll still be playing in Denver at 35.

But he's the perfect 2-3 year transition for what Denver needs right now. A smart QB who can beat playoff teams if his O-line & defense play well.

Continue upgrading his supporting cast in '10 & '11 and enjoy some playoff football even if they don't win it all.

There is a tidal wave of QB's coming out of the Pac-10 in the next 2-4 years.

It would be a shame to see this team waste a 1st through 3rd rounder on a QB next year unless someone had an epic slide and fell into their lap.

Excelllent post. Rep. I agree......

HAT
12-28-2009, 10:49 PM
The team wouldn't necessarily need to use a high draft pick on an upgraded QB... one could also possibly be acquired via free agency or a trade.

True but have you seen the list of FA QB's for next year?
A trade is useless if you're only going to go from like the 14th best option to the 9th.

No...this team absolutely needs a QBOTF.....Brister, Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton....They were ALL stop gaps. As would be any available FA QB or one available via trade.

There will be some solid NFL journeyman coming out in '10 & '11. Maybe even a star or two. But there will be more busts than 'franchises' and if you overreact and swing and miss and commit to the wrong guy....you handicap yourself going into '12 & '13 when the real talent is coming out.

Orton is the best option to bridge that gap IMO

Blueflame
12-28-2009, 10:57 PM
True but have you seen the list of FA QB's for next year?
A trade is useless if you're only going to go from like the 14th best option to the 9th.

No...this team absolutely needs a QBOTF.....Brister, Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton....They were ALL stop gaps. As would be any available FA QB or one available via trade.

There will be some solid NFL journeyman coming out in '10 & '11. Maybe even a star or two. But there will be more busts than 'franchises' and if you overreact and swing and miss and commit to the wrong guy....you handicap yourself going into '12 & '13 when the real talent is coming out.

Orton is the best option to bridge that gap IMO

But isn't Orton a FA himself? What if he wants a huge pay raise? Do you still want to keep him at double or triple the money? Guess I'm looking at (actually laughing at) KC and Oakland with their high-priced benchwarmers (FA Cassel and #1 overall JaMarshmallow). I don't hate Orton but overpaying for his services could be... imo... unwise. Guess a lot depends on Orton's pricetag.

Archer81
12-28-2009, 11:15 PM
3 yr deal for 14 mil would not be out of line for Orton, IMO.


:Broncos:

watermock
12-28-2009, 11:24 PM
Orton should be happy with mustard on his dog.

We can't run because the D jams the line.

Cutler layed a perfect throw on an injured CB in single coverage.

AP lost the game tho. Marcia should tke note.

watermock
12-28-2009, 11:25 PM
3 yr deal for 14 mil would not be out of line for Orton, IMO.


:Broncos:

That would be fine, since that's what we were paying Simms.

HAT
12-28-2009, 11:29 PM
I seriously doubt he prices himself out of Denver. If that were the case and he walked...I'd still be in favor of NOT drafting a QB in 2010. Unless something stupid happened and a guy like Pike or Canfield fell far beyond where they should've.

If Orton prices himself out of Denver...you throw Brandstater in the fire and find the BFA available to back him up.

My ideal scenario is signing Orton to a 2-3 deal and see how it goes.

2010: draft a playmaker in the first & concentrate on mostly OL/DL after that, Orton starts

2011: draft BPA's & maneuver for future picks in 2012/13, Orton starts & Brandstater has solidified himself as QB2 and continues to push.

2012 could very well be 1983 all over again as far as QB's go. Make sure you are positioned well to grab one.

misturanderson
12-28-2009, 11:44 PM
But isn't Orton a FA himself? What if he wants a huge pay raise? Do you still want to keep him at double or triple the money? Guess I'm looking at (actually laughing at) KC and Oakland with their high-priced benchwarmers (FA Cassel and #1 overall JaMarshmallow). I don't hate Orton but overpaying for his services could be... imo... unwise. Guess a lot depends on Orton's pricetag.

He's getting less than $1 million this year. There is no way that he signs a contract without a minimum of a 6x increase in his pay, and he shouldn't. Starters at that position don't get paid $2 million per year, no matter how bad they are (and he isn't bad). He is more than worthy of an average starting QB salary.

That being said, he can be given a 1st round tender as a RFA and we'll still have him for dirt cheap (still 3x what's he's getting now), but only for 1 more year. If that's the case, we will almost certainly be drafting a QB this year.

watermock
12-28-2009, 11:45 PM
We WERE positioned to get one THIS year.

Your talking 2012 now?

To develop a QB?

By that time the USA will be close to the Weimar republic.

We totally wasted the 2009 draft. We should of traded out, we did, but not for crap.

I can't believe we won't even make the playoffs after 2 miracle wins and a 6-0 start..

watermock
12-28-2009, 11:46 PM
Signing Neckbeard is the least of our worries.

Hulamau
12-29-2009, 12:32 AM
Knumskulls who take glee in our late struggles as if its some validation of their Josh/Bowlen hatred are as wrong and out of step now as they've always been.

Idiot logic from morons has a tendency to be self-sustaining.

watermock
12-29-2009, 12:46 AM
It's Numbskull.

And struggle would be mild. 2-7 puts us in bottom feeder, and there is ZERO momentum on this team.

Of course, critique is self-fulfilling.

Idiot logic from morons has a tendency to be self-sustaining.

Indeed.

HEAV
12-29-2009, 11:25 AM
We're not seeing the same late season collapse. This one is far worse than any collapse Shanahan has coached.


...and there it is. The Issac defense of Shanny with the under-tone of calling McDaniels a failure, all in a attempt to be exactly what this threads topic is about!

The owner/operator of the board is the biggest troll himself and leads the list of "I told you so"...

Call this a collapse all you want. The Broncos weren't expected to even be in this position!

The last two loses where by a total of 4 points and the Philly game the team erased a 17 point deficit on the road!

It's the Shanny-crew that call this the worst collapse ever...

_Oro_
12-29-2009, 11:30 AM
It's Numbskull.

And struggle would be mild. 2-7 puts us in bottom feeder, and there is ZERO momentum on this team.

Of course, critique is self-fulfilling.



Indeed.

Mock calling someone on spelling. :notworthy

Dagmar
12-29-2009, 11:34 AM
Mock calling someone on spelling. :notworthy

:spit:

Steve Prefontaine
12-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Call this a collapse all you want. The Broncos weren't expected to even be in this position!

Just curious. What were your expectations going into last season (2008)? Did you expect the Broncos to win the division?

HEAV
12-29-2009, 11:56 AM
Just curious. What were your expectations going into last season (2008)? Did you expect the Broncos to win the division?

Contend for the AFC West, have a winning season and a playoff spot.

Dagmar
12-29-2009, 12:14 PM
Contend for the AFC West, have a winning season and a playoff spot.

I think that's every year!

Except this one for half of the fanbase.

Jason in LA
12-29-2009, 12:47 PM
There is a big difference between disagreeing with the FO moves and the **** that goes on here. Big difference.

Yeah, but it seems that everybody who has questioned the moves has been lumped into the same group. Not all of us have openly rooted against the team. I'd say that most of the folks around here who questioned the moves were rooting for the team every week.

HEAV
12-29-2009, 12:48 PM
I think that's every year!

Except this one for half of the fanbase.

No doubt! When you have a two time Super Bowl coach, a young gunner,rising star at WR with what looked like a decent running game...also thining that the defense would be average.


2009 and all it's drama...I just wanted to see a team. Not a pinball offense with a joke of a defense. I wanted to see a young coach set the foundation and transition to a more tougher team.

Last years Denver team would have been blown-out by many of the teams it played this year. Not to mention the close tough hard fought victories would have been nowhere.

Granted I wanted more with the 6-0 start, but I also knew this team got lucky in Cincy and played a rusty Brady. I saw the weak O-line play and knew the defense front line wouldn't hold up all year.

Right now all I want is a win Sunday that puts Denver at 9-7 a winning season. If the other teams lose and Denver slips into the wildcard I'll be more than happy!

HEAV
12-29-2009, 12:55 PM
Yeah, but it seems that everybody who has questioned the moves has been lumped into the same group. Not all of us have openly rooted against the team. I'd say that most of the folks around here who questioned the moves were rooting for the team every week.

:spit:

Jason in LA
12-29-2009, 12:59 PM
2-3 more years of Orton will cost McD his job. Now a days coaches don't get very long to turn the ship around. So I don't think that McD wants to hitch his wagon to Orton. He needs to find his QB very soon. If the Broncos hover around .500 over the next few years with Orton at QB, McD will be out of a job.

Rock Chalk
12-29-2009, 01:36 PM
We're not seeing the same late season collapse. This one is far worse than any collapse Shanahan has coached.

And maybe it's to be expected. I just remember all this talk about how this team was built to finish strong, and how things were going to be different and I can't help but noticing that none of that "I just want to see this team finish strong" talk held up.

And those people were doing a lot of "I told you so's" early in the season, and wow, what a coincidence, they're the ones who are complaining the loudest now when the people they were feeding crow to want to turn the tables on them.

But still... While I can understand the inclination to feed someone else crow, I think it's poor form. The bottom line is, we hit the reset button on this franchise. We're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The running game is gone. The o-line scheme, gone. The QB, gone. You name it. This is a team in transition. It's going to take more than one year to reset this franchise.

No, last years collapse will never be topped.

3 game division lead with 3 to go and one of those games at home against one of the worst teams in the league and you cant even win it.

No sir, last season's collapse was epic. This season, I dont think so. What I think is that weeks 1-6 we caught some lucky breaks and played above our heads. Weeks 7-16 so far we have been unlucky on the field in many regards and had a few mental lapses.

I see a team that can be great. I also see a team that is shrugging off the effects of idiotic coaching and a ****ty mentality left over from the previous regime. You and whoever else may be ready to throw our players and coaches to the wolves, but what I see gives me much hope for the future of this franchise.

Not one person here expected a superbowl, and most didn't even expect the playoffs. Most sane individuals knew this was a transition year and it has showed. There have been times when this team has absolutely clicked where you could say to yourself "I really like what this team is doing" and then there are a few times where you are like "WTF Beavis".

Enjoy this season folks. Its far better than anything Shanahan would have thrown out there this year I promise you that.

bpc
12-29-2009, 01:47 PM
This year is worse. We managed to lose to the Redskins on one of the worst designed special teams trick plays ever. They even took a time out to run it properly! Then they choked to the Raiders, at home, not against their starter, but their 2nd, 3rd and 4th string QB's!

To top losing a 3 game lead in the division, which both the 08' and 09' teams have done, this team managed to fall on it's sword a second time and lose out on landing the wildcard as well.

Choking away the division... FAIL.

Losing the division AND choking away a wildcard birth, DOUBLE FAIL!!!!

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2009, 01:57 PM
This year is worse. We managed to lose to the Redskins on one of the worst designed special teams trick plays ever. They even took a time out to run it properly!

The Broncos were still winning well after that play happened. Simms and Simms alone is to blame for that one.

bpc
12-29-2009, 02:36 PM
Point to a handful of plays in each game. Doesn't really matter. We lost. Orton also misfired on another long pass to Eddie Royal which would have been about a 70 or 80 yd TD.

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2009, 02:39 PM
Point to a handful of plays in each game. Doesn't really matter. We lost. Orton also misfired on another long pass to Eddie Royal which would have been about a 70 or 80 yd TD.

Another case of selective memory. If you have access to the play, watch it again. They showed in replays that Royal was jammed/held as Orton released the ball and the timing was thrown off as a result. Orton, if anything, errs on the side of underthrowing balls. He never overthrows guys, especially Royal.

bpc
12-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Another case of selective memory. If you have access to the play, watch it again. They showed in replays that Royal was jammed/held as Orton released the ball and the timing was thrown off as a result. Orton, if anything, errs on the side of underthrowing balls. He never overthrows guys, especially Royal.

Doesn't matter. We needed him to make a play and he did not. We lost. Just like he couldn't win against the Raiders 2nd, 3rd, or 4th string QB. Doesn't matter how it happened... it did. And here we are.

Requiem
12-29-2009, 03:48 PM
I'd have to say this years collapse is even worse. You gotta be ****in' kiddin' me. 6-0 and not make the playoffs? I expect that **** from the Vikings who have sucked cock since Tarkenton hung 'em up, but not from the Broncos.

DrFate
12-29-2009, 05:22 PM
There is a big difference between disagreeing with the FO moves and the **** that goes on here. Big difference.

I'm glad you see the difference. I don't. If you DARE question anything about McDaniels or Orton - the same group of posters shows up like locusts and pulls out every type of ad hominem their little minds can conjure.

It doesn't matter if you back your posts with facts. You just get called names (or worse) for simply questioning this new 'regime'.

I don't think that contributes to any kind of football conversation.

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2009, 06:14 PM
Doesn't matter. We needed him to make a play and he did not. We lost. Just like he couldn't win against the Raiders 2nd, 3rd, or 4th string QB.

Weird, cause we were winning when he left the game in Washington. He made plenty of plays.

AND we were winning with him until the last drive when Oakland scored to go ahead with 30 seconds left. He wasn't playing defense there and was given no time to do anything about it.

Archer81
12-29-2009, 06:54 PM
I'm glad you see the difference. I don't. If you DARE question anything about McDaniels or Orton - the same group of posters shows up like locusts and pulls out every type of ad hominem their little minds can conjure.

It doesn't matter if you back your posts with facts. You just get called names (or worse) for simply questioning this new 'regime'.

I don't think that contributes to any kind of football conversation.


Reverse of that is being called a homer for supporting the coaching staff and owner. Called names and listening to ridiculous conspiracy theories regarding back up players. I personally dont care about 95% of the takes on this team on this board, because as you said they are backed with facts that supports that poster's opinion. That 5% makes me want to throat punch a newborn because its just so ****ing stupid.

:Broncos:

Bronco Bob
12-30-2009, 12:29 AM
He is not Mike Shanahan. Thats the baseline of it all. They did not like that Cutler got traded. They did not like Marshall being suspended, and now most of them latch onto the "injustice" of Hillis not playing. Its a passive way to snipe at the HC without directly criticizing him, which makes no damn sense. Most people are willing to give McDaniels 3 years. Firing him after a single season is stupid. If you want to set the franchise back, thats how you do it. Instability in the FO does it every time.


:Broncos:

One only has to look at the Washington Redskins or the Oakland Raiders to see
what the revolving door at the HC position does to a team.

Bronco Bob
12-30-2009, 12:32 AM
Why is someone branded a troll if they disagree with the recent front office moves? People who feel the franchise is moving in the wrong direction (and have the audacity to state it on this board) are called 'trolls' and accosted by the fan police. It really doesn't make sense to me.

Would this be a 'better' board if 100% of the posters said "**** YEAH!! GO BRONCOS!! WOOOOO!!!" And ignored performance?

Nobody is talking about those people. It's the people that gloat and cheer
and go with the "I told you so" crap, like some Raiders or Chiefs troll, that we
are discussing.

bpc
12-30-2009, 12:37 AM
Weird, cause we were winning when he left the game in Washington. He made plenty of plays.

AND we were winning with him until the last drive when Oakland scored to go ahead with 30 seconds left. He wasn't playing defense there and was given no time to do anything about it.

TD's win football games. FG's and offensive tackle screen passes do not.

"Fail Orton, for $500 Alex."

Taco John
12-30-2009, 01:11 AM
...and there it is. The Issac defense of Shanny with the under-tone of calling McDaniels a failure, all in a attempt to be exactly what this threads topic is about!

The owner/operator of the board is the biggest troll himself and leads the list of "I told you so"...

Call this a collapse all you want. The Broncos weren't expected to even be in this position!

The last two loses where by a total of 4 points and the Philly game the team erased a 17 point deficit on the road!

It's the Shanny-crew that call this the worst collapse ever...


I have no problem calling a collapse a collapse. When you lose 7 of 9 games after a 6-0 start, that's a collapse. And it's one of the worst in Broncos history, if not THE worst in Broncos history.

I'm not up in arms about it, but I'm not exactly comfortable with it either. The way I see it, at best Josh has rearranged a few deck chairs. I'm hoping that this is a one step back, two steps forward scenario. But I have zero problems in admitting that I think we're worse off this season than we'd have been if we gave Shanahan an opportunity to finish putting his team together.

I haven't said a single "I told you so." The product on the field does the talking.

Florida_Bronco
12-30-2009, 01:13 AM
TD's win football games. FG's and offensive tackle screen passes do not.

"Fail Orton, for $500 Alex."

Do we want to talk about what Cutler did at home against the Raiders last year?

Florida_Bronco
12-30-2009, 01:14 AM
But I have zero problems in admitting that I think we're worse off this season than we'd have been if we gave Shanahan an opportunity to finish putting his team together.

There is no possible way this team would be in a better position with Slowik running the defense and Jeremy Bates calling the offensive plays this year.

Taco John
12-30-2009, 01:18 AM
There is no possible way this team would be in a better position with Slowik running the defense and Jeremy Bates calling the offensive plays this year.

You used to have decent, rational takes. Now you just say stuff really firmly and hope people will submit.

This isn't cop work here. People don't just obey you because you say something.

Another year of offensive cohesion, building on the success that Payton Hillis, Eddie Royal, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, Graham and Cutler... And actually giving the defense the players they needed to complete the scheme - who knows? I think it only makes sense that there'd have been progress.

Florida_Bronco
12-30-2009, 01:39 AM
You used to have decent, rational takes. Now you just say stuff really firmly and hope people will submit.

This isn't cop work here. People don't just obey you because you say something.

Another year of offensive cohesion, building on the success that Payton Hillis, Eddie Royal, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, Graham and Cutler... And actually giving the defense the players they needed to complete the scheme - who knows? I think it only makes sense that there'd have been progress.

Sorry TJ, anyone who believes that Slowik would have this defense anywhere close to what it was this year, isn't having a "decent, rational take".

Let's talk about that cohesion there. What cohesion did we have on defense? Slowik trotted out at least 3 different base alignments that I counted, including that horrendous 4-4 we saw against Carolina. How does that breed cohesion? You can't make the argument that the players would be more comfortable in Slowik's scheme because he simply didn't have one. It was basically something different each week, so iIt's really not debatable that we'd have been back at square one on defense in 2009.

Whether Shanny would have dedicated the resources to rebuilding the defense that McD has is debatable, but his track record doesn't make a good case for it. Speaking of track records, Slowik has failed EVERYWHERE he's been. He never should have been the DC to begin with, much less getting another year after already sucking for a year and a half.

Taco John
12-30-2009, 01:45 AM
Sorry TJ, anyone who believes that Slowik would have this defense anywhere close to what it was this year, isn't having a "decent, rational take".

Who could possibly know?


Let's talk about that cohesion there. What cohesion did we have on defense? Slowik trotted out at least 3 different base alignments that I counted, including that horrendous 4-4 we saw against Carolina. How does that breed cohesion? You can't make the argument that the players would be more comfortable in Slowik's scheme because he simply didn't have one. It was basically something different each week, so iIt's really not debatable that we'd have been back at square one on defense in 2009.

You are underinformed. Slowik said it in August, and no matter how many times I repeat it directly to you, you refuse to absorb the information: Slowik didn't have the players to run his scheme. He said it in August. He said that they'd run it the best they could with the players that they had installing the base packages and terminology, and look forward to the next season where they'd target players to fit in. And the cohesion I mentioned was more about offense, and not defense.

I've repeated this to you again and again and its information that you refuse to absorb.

I don't know whether Slowik would have failed or succeeded here. All I know is that I am willing to give ANY coach at least two years to install their scheme before I call for their head. Slowik was in year one of installing his scheme.

Florida_Bronco
12-30-2009, 02:27 AM
Who could possibly know? Easy.

Track record - Slowik's sucks. He's not going to just magically turn it around after all these years.

Scheme - Slowik had none. He threw crap against the wall every week hoping it would stick. At best, we got an average defense.

Continuity - Again, we would have none. We did nothing to establish a scheme in 2008. Back to square one in 2009.

Accountability - Slowik had to have known he was pretty much set as long as Shanny was here. Not an environment that makes for winning.

How does Nolan stack up?

Track Record - Nolan's is impressive.

Scheme - Nolan has an established scheme that he brought to Denver and adjusted to McD's liking.

Continuity - Not much of a factor here since it was Nolan's first year. They did however, bring in players (Law, Smith, Fields) who were familiar with the scheme.

Accountability - Josh McDaniels berated and threatened to fire his special teams coach on the sideline during a game. Do I really need to elaborate anymore on this?

You are underinformed. Slowik said it in August, and no matter how many times I repeat it directly to you, you refuse to absorb the information: Slowik didn't have the players to run his scheme. He said it in August. He said that they'd run it the best they could with the players that they had installing the base packages and terminology, and look forward to the next season where they'd target players to fit in. And the cohesion I mentioned was more about offense, and not defense. Yeah I heard this excuse the first few times you posted it. It's still a bull**** excuse.

Why didn't we have the players? McD and Nolan completely changed EVERYTHING about our defense, yet they managed to acquire the players to make a very solid defense in one offseason.

Answer? Because Shanahan neglected the defense in search (and ultimately, failure) of a dynasty level offense. Obviously that is more of an indictment against Shanny than Slowik, but Slowik failed too. He didn't establish a scheme, he actually made our defense WORSE than 2007's and all of this is exactly what he's produced everywhere else he has been.

I don't know whether Slowik would have failed or succeeded here. All I know is that I am willing to give ANY coach at least two years to install their scheme before I call for their head. Slowik was in year one of installing his scheme. That's all well and fine TJ, but then again we go back to that scheme. Slowik didn't install any scheme last year. None at all.

Then, we're going back to track records. His defenses steadily declined in Chicago and both Cleveland and Green Bay gave him the boot after only one season. I understand the cautious optimism thing, but at what point do you stop and say "hey, I've seen enough and you clearly suck at this job"?

Of course I'd like to ask Shanny the same question. He's the only other one who seems to think Slowik deserved 2 and a half years to prove himself here. ::)

Meck77
12-30-2009, 03:56 AM
I have no problem calling a collapse a collapse. When you lose 7 of 9 games after a 6-0 start, that's a collapse. And it's one of the worst in Broncos history, if not THE worst in Broncos history.

I'm not up in arms about it, but I'm not exactly comfortable with it either. The way I see it, at best Josh has rearranged a few deck chairs. I'm hoping that this is a one step back, two steps forward scenario. But I have zero problems in admitting that I think we're worse off this season than we'd have been if we gave Shanahan an opportunity to finish putting his team together.

I haven't said a single "I told you so." The product on the field does the talking.

The sky is falling!!!!!! Yet we still have a chance for the playoffs.

Popps
12-30-2009, 04:01 AM
I haven't said a single "I told you so." The product on the field does the talking.

That's good, considering you haven't hit the side of a barn with an argument you've made. It's tough to say "I told you so" when you've been flat-out wrong about everything you've said for the past 12 months.


We're a better team.



Sorry, bro.

DrFate
12-30-2009, 02:21 PM
Nobody is talking about those people. It's the people that gloat and cheer
and go with the "I told you so" crap, like some Raiders or Chiefs troll, that we
are discussing.

I have seen exactly one thread started by someone who genuinely seemed happy the Broncos lost. If there are others, please cite them.

Saying 'the results on the field exhibit the failings of the coach/his chosen QB' 'isn't the same as some kind of Orangemane schadenfreude.

broncobum6162
12-31-2009, 11:42 AM
I think the OP hit the nail on the head but maybe you can look at it from a different perspective. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
For many of us we have grown up as Broncos fans and remember the struggles of the 80's & early 90's to build the team around the Duke. We finally got the formula correct by bringing in Shanny, running a ZBS O-line, plug-n-play RBs and a few workhorse WRs & TE that believed in the team.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We spent a better part of this decade with Shanny trying to re-build that formula. Every offseason we would hype up the new picks / FA(s). Get the training camp scoop of the new hot shot rook’s making plays from the guys attending in person (Kaylore?). We drank the Coolaide and bought into the system. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We finally get what we thought was the replacement to Elway; only to have the system ripped out and the creator fired. You replace that with a young HC, send the star QB packing, suspend your stud WR, and draft a 5’ 9” CB with our 2010 #1 pick that leaves a lot of ?’s to be answered.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Many of us had no expectations for this year maybe 3-5 wins. We didn’t believe in the new system and assumed that it would fail. When we won so many straight and beat NE many of the fray started to accept maybe the new system was indeed the correct direction to move in. The passion of Sir Fist-pump against the Patriots was the highlight of the season for me.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ever since we have devolved back into the team we thought we were. Weak running game, poor special teams, and a bend but don’t break D. People feel that failure vindicates their uncertainty in the system. By losing it justifies their position that McD is not the right person to take us back to the Promised Land and that failure will initiate change. I guess it’s sort of like in politics where some nuts hope for a President’s policy to fail so to ensure party change. In the end they end up hoping that there country fails to validate their belief.

So true, so true. Rep!:strong:

Jason in LA
12-31-2009, 12:05 PM
Speaking of collapses, The Broncos held a 3 1/2 game lead, and now they are down by 4 games. How does that happen?

SJ Bronco
12-31-2009, 02:01 PM
It takes time to rebuild a team with a new offense. We won 6 with the element of surprise and some grit on defense. I like where this team is headed and I look forward to seeing mcd add more of his puzzle pieces this offseason.

As for those who want it all and want it now? Ask Al Davis what happens if you try to rush it. Go Broncos. This ain't our year. Next year will be better. Got my orange koolaid ready to go cause. Being a fan means enjoying the UPS and the downs. If we lose Sunday I'll make my final post on this board and I'll eat my crow for being an optimist. I will not apologise for loving my team and its players without conditions. It's where I get my gusto for life in general. It never as bad as it seems. In life or in football.