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ZONA
12-27-2009, 05:47 PM
Trying to be fair here while still miffed about losing today but with only 1 game left in the season, we've now had pretty much an entire season to evaluate Orton. What he does well vs what he does bad and all the average stuff in between.

Can he be successful here long term? I'm not sure. After watching him for a full season, I'm going to say he would be above average but not a big time threat.

The biggest problem I have with Orton is he doesn't have alot of strengths as a QB. He has decent arm strength but it's not great, so it's not a strength. He has decent pocket presence but doesn't have any speed at all and goes down way too easy. He can avoid some rushers but just about any QB in the league can do that. So I actually think this is a weak area for him. His accuracy is again, only decent. I would not call accuracy a strength of Orton. Reading defenses? He's not that bad, but he's no wizard at it either.

So I'm not here to bash on him and say he sucks like alot of people are doing but I'm not believing he has a great deal more to offer this team. I guess in the big picture, after trading away the previous starter, he was an adequate stop gap QB with only a 1 year contract and maybe that's just what McD was looking for as he had the daunting task for rebuilding an entire team, especially one with such a putrid defense as we had last year. McD really didn't go out of his way to give up anything for Orton, he was really a throw in with the picks. Maybe McD hoped he could be something more but it turns out he really isn't. I personally don't think Orton is in the long term future for McD's plans for this team.

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Trying to be fair here while still miffed about losing today but with only 1 game left in the season, we've now had pretty much an entire season to evaluate Orton. What he does well vs what he does bad and all the average stuff in between.

Can he be successful here long term? I'm not sure. After watching him for a full season, I'm going to say he would be above average but not a big time threat.

As Popps pointed out on another thread, Orton is pretty much the cream of the crop for free-agent QBs anyhow this year. For all that he goes down too easily at times, and has the approximate footspeed of a brick, I was impressed today to see Orton getting full extension and follow-through on his throws. It looks to me like some things are coming together for him so he can just play and attack the defense instead of thinking about everything that he's supposed to do.

I think Orton's going to be the Bronco starter again next year. I'll be real curious to see how much improvement there may be from his first year with McDaniels to the second year.

elsid13
12-27-2009, 07:06 PM
My evaluation of Orton has remained the same through out the year. He is an average QB with limited upside that very depended on clean pocket to be effective. He has standard NFL arm, OK release and no mobility and little accuracy (it especial bad when he doesn't set his feet properly). He is over caution with the ball and rather check down then attempt to put it into tight coverage. While at time that fine decision, it can also hurt a team when the money throw, needs to be made on 3rd downs, when WR/TE has tight coverage on him.

SoCalBronco
12-27-2009, 07:17 PM
As Popps pointed out on another thread, Orton is pretty much the cream of the crop for free-agent QBs anyhow this year.

That might be true, but it's still not a good enough reason to commit to him long term. That he's the best of a sorry bunch doesn't solve the problem. I'd agree with elsid's evaluation. Look, he's a fine stopgap, but that's all he is. If he'd like a short term deal while Denver evaluates how they will acquire their next long term starter, that's fine, he's earned that...he can and will serve as a fine bridge to someone else. I know Herc pointed out a few days back that there's alot of other average QBs getting paid big money when I argued against a long term deal for Orton. I'm not quite sure what he was trying to prove. So what that other mediocre talents got large deals? Are we now somehow compelled to do the same? No. If he doesn't want a short term deal and is offered a long term deal by someone else, by all means he should take that other deal and I will wish him well, as he undoubtedly gave it his best here.

Denver can do better and has done better. Hopefully Josh will find someone he likes in the draft. I was hoping for Locker because he has nasty skills that just need some seasoning, but unfortunately he wont be in the draft. If Josh doesnt like this year's crop, then I'd rather have them just get another journeyman (like Orton) and try to ride out 2010 until a more promising batch of FA's or college players comes along, rather than commit to someone with so many obvious physical limitations. Josh has already made chicken salad out of chicken****, so we know Josh will be able to squeeze every bit of talent out of whoever starts next year. It might not be pretty, but it might be adequate...at least for now.

ZONA
12-27-2009, 07:22 PM
As Popps pointed out on another thread, Orton is pretty much the cream of the crop for free-agent QBs anyhow this year. For all that he goes down too easily at times, and has the approximate footspeed of a brick, I was impressed today to see Orton getting full extension and follow-through on his throws. It looks to me like some things are coming together for him so he can just play and attack the defense instead of thinking about everything that he's supposed to do.

I think Orton's going to be the Bronco starter again next year. I'll be real curious to see how much improvement there may be from his first year with McDaniels to the second year.

My guess is there won't be much improvement. It's not like Orton is a gifted QB that is struggling with the playbook or something and come year 2 he would know more of the plays. It's not like he was a rookie and the NFL life was a shock to him. To me, Orton is what you see. A slightly above average QB who plays it safe, cannot create pressure on a defense unless he has totally wide open WR's or a clean pocket. He's not a guy that will threaten a defense down the field often or run for 1st downs on broken plays. He certainly isn't close to a bad QB but starting him next year only delays the opportunity for McD to find somebody who can be a special QB in this league. To me, he's alot like Hassleback. He's going to be steady but not great. Your chances of winning and going to the playoffs in this league are not good with an average QB who has a few good games. You need a playmaker, like Cutler, just without the plethora of mistakes. You obviously can live with some, but a guy like Cutler makes just way too many. But on the same note, a guy like Orton who can't really make special plays, you're not really too far off from where you were before. Cutler was not the answer and neither is Orton.

long beach bronco
12-27-2009, 07:23 PM
I would rather have that Eagles backup QB, Kolb.

elsid13
12-27-2009, 07:25 PM
That might be true, but it's still not a good enough reason to commit to him long term. That he's the best of a sorry bunch doesn't solve the problem. I'd agree with elsid's evaluation. Look, he's a fine stopgap, but that's all he is. If he'd like a short term deal while Denver evaluates how they will acquire their next long term starter, that's fine, he's earned that...he can and will serve as a fine bridge to someone else. I know Herc pointed out a few days back that there's alot of other average QBs getting paid big money when I argued against a long term deal for Orton. I'm not quite sure what he was trying to prove. So what that other mediocre talents got large deals? Are we now somehow compelled to do the same? No. If he doesn't want a short term deal and is offered a long term deal by someone else, by all means he should take that other deal and I will wish him well, as he undoubtedly gave it his best here.

Denver can do better and has done better. Hopefully Josh will find someone he likes in the draft. I was hoping for Locker because he has nasty skills that just need some seasoning, but unfortunately he wont be in the draft. If Josh doesnt like this year's crop, then I'd rather have them just get another journeyman (like Orton) and try to ride out 2010 until a more promising batch of FA's or college players comes along, rather than commit to someone with so many obvious physical limitations. Josh has already made chicken salad out of chicken****, so we know Josh will be able to squeeze every bit of talent out of whoever starts next year. It might not be pretty, but it might be adequate...at least for now.

Hopefully next year we see a flood of QBs come out - Luck, Locker, Foles, Mallett- all show more ability then the current draft QB.

razorwire77
12-27-2009, 07:27 PM
I agree with almost everyone's evaluations. I would also add that one of the most serious flaws with Orton isn't really a measurable. His ability to sense when a pocket has collapsed and step up is below average. If John Elway is the benchmark 10, Orton is about a 3. Overall, he's serviceable in most areas, and I doubt we'll find much of an upgrade in free agency. Maybe we draft someone high, but I think he's probably going to start for another year or two.

elsid13
12-27-2009, 07:28 PM
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if O'Connell was snagged by the Jets.

dsmoot
12-27-2009, 07:36 PM
I would rather have that Eagles backup QB, Kolb.
If I can't have a long term starter and have to settle for a stopgap. Give me someone who can move, buy time and create something. A veteran like Rich Gannon. Someone who is smart enough to throw the ball away and not take a sack or force a ball. Loved Jake Plummer because he could move but he wasn't a good decision maker under pressure.

I have no idea why they thought Chris Simms was worth his contract.

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 07:38 PM
That might be true, but it's still not a good enough reason to commit to him long term. That he's the best of a sorry bunch doesn't solve the problem.

Howdy, SoCal --

When I look at Orton's actual stats for the year, in my opinion he doesn't look as awful as everyone makes him out to be. Just for my own amusement, I did a little comparison of Orton's stats for the year so far with Elway's stats over the first 12 years of his career. I considered only the first 12 years to remove the "Shanahan factor." Orton never worked with Shanahan, so I thought it fair to also consider Elway's performance without Shanahan.

* In the first 12 years of his career, only once did Elway's completion percentage match or beat Orton for this year. Orton is at 62.7; Elway had a 63.2 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, only two times did Elway throw more TDs than Orton has for this year. Elway had 22 in 1985 and 25 in 1993. Orton has 20 with one more game to go.

* In the first 12 years, Elway's QB rating matched or beat Orton's for this year just once. Orton is currently at 89.3; Elway had a 92.8 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, Elway threw more INTs every year but one than Orton has this year. In John's rookie year, 1983, he threw 7 INTs while playing 11 games. Orton so far has 9 through 15 games.

I'M NOT ARGUING THAT ORTON IS ELWAY'S EQUAL OR BETTER. I'm pointing out these numbers as a way of highlighting that, even 11 years later, I think that Bronco fans tend to view Elway's whole careeer through the orange-colored glasses of his last three or four years.

I think there's one more factor, too, that makes a difference in how we as Bronco fans view Orton: he's not flashy. He doesn't have the running and scrambling skills of an Elway or a Plummer, and he doesn't have Elway's or Cutler's cannon arm. He looks so much like one of the guys sitting in the seats, or watching the game from home, that the guys think "Oh, I could have gotten away from that rush! Why didn't Orton see <whatever>?" It's an illusion because Orton doesn't have the flashy abilities that set him apart from Joe Street.

Even without the flash, it's my opinion that Orton is doing well enough this year that I'd like to see what more he can do now that he's learning the system in "live fire" conditions. With another off-season to study and learn, turning theory into game experience on film, and with McDaniels (I trust) addressing the clear problems on the offensive line, I don't think we've seen yet just where the ceiling is for Kyle Orton's abilities.

(But then, I'm one of the cheerleaders who really thought that Quentin Griffith would be something special. So my thoughts on this subject too are probably just about worth what you paid for them. :smile: )

DarkHorse
12-27-2009, 07:38 PM
There's nothing dynamic about him - ever. Cannot lean on him to "make a play"


Paint dries faster than Kyle Orton can run.
Gusts of wind have been known to sack him.


Those are facts.

bpc
12-27-2009, 07:38 PM
Arm - Average to weak.
Accuracy - Average to weak.
Short Throwing ability - Decent
Long throwing ability - Poor
Decision Making - Poor
Pocket Presence - Poor
Scrambling Ability - Poor
Intangibles - Poor/Gritty

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 07:42 PM
People keep forgetting the fact that Orton has been hurt for all but 2 or 3 games this season. He had to wear a freaking glove for the first month and wasn't comfortable at all throwing the ball. He then got the foot injury and had absolutely no strength to push off or move in the pocket for another couple of games.

He may not look better next year as a result of purely having another year under his belt in the system, but he may look better next year purely because he's actually healthy and able to do everything he could normally do. Things we maybe haven't even seen yet.

The Joker
12-27-2009, 07:43 PM
Thought he played a really good game today, why we ran the ball at all in the last few drives is beyond me.

I think with some sort of effective ground game to lean on he is well capable of being a quality starting QB for us.

Problem with him is mostly that he's pretty boring to watch. He may be the least flashy QB in the league, and people are naturally going to be drawn to a more exciting player.

20 TD's and 9 INT's is nothing to be sneezed at though, and keep in mind that he missed basically a full game through injury and played with a bad finger injury the first 3 or 4 games as well.

elsid13
12-27-2009, 07:44 PM
People keep forgetting the fact that Orton has been hurt for all but 2 or 3 games this season. He had to wear a freaking glove for the first month and wasn't comfortable at all throwing the ball. He then got the foot injury and had absolutely no strength to push off or move in the pocket for another couple of games.

He may not look better next year as a result of purely having another year under his belt in the system, but he may look better next year purely because he's actually healthy and able to do everything he could normally do. Things we maybe haven't even seen yet.

You do realize that Orton never had a healthy season in the NFL? Why would that trend change next year? His lack of mobility ensure he gets a lot of hits and he isn't getting younger.

2KBack
12-27-2009, 07:47 PM
I cannot for the life of me believe that this game was put on Orton. Over a 100 yards in pentalties, another tale of two halfs defense (which failed again at the two most important points in the game, after Denver's first TD and then again after Denver tied the game), and having 3.5 starting worthy Offensive lineman carry far more blame than Orton.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 07:49 PM
Pros:
decent decision maker, good command of the huddle, seems to do well calling out protection schemes at the line, does not fluster easily, competitive guy who knows the playbook.

Cons:
Below average arm, non-existent scrambling ability, does not feel the rush adequately, cannot throw on the move at all, slow release, consistently fails to hit receivers in stride, in all likelihood has hit his ceiling.

What we saw this year is exactly what he is. He will fluctuate between 8-10 wins given enough weapons around him and a game defense, but he is not a championship caliber QB sans the 1985 Bears defense helping him along. Too many weaknesses, and his inability to make throws on the move or downfield hampers the playcalling, and run game in particular.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 07:49 PM
You do realize that Orton never had a healthy season in the NFL? Why would that trend change next year? His lack of mobility ensure he gets a lot of hits and he isn't getting younger.

ding ding.

Statues tend to get hit a lot in the NFL.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 07:51 PM
You do realize that Orton never had a healthy season in the NFL? Why would that trend change next year? His lack of mobility ensure he gets a lot of hits and he isn't getting younger.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Rookie year of 2005? Nope. No injury issues.
2006? Nope. No injury issues.
2007? Nope. No injury issues.

Only in 2008 did he have significant injuries.

bronco610
12-27-2009, 07:53 PM
trying to be fair here while still miffed about losing today but with only 1 game left in the season, we've now had pretty much an entire season to evaluate orton. What he does well vs what he does bad and all the average stuff in between.

Can he be successful here long term? I'm not sure. After watching him for a full season, i'm going to say he would be above average but not a big time threat.

The biggest problem i have with orton is he doesn't have alot of strengths as a qb. He has decent arm strength but it's not great, so it's not a strength. He has decent pocket presence but doesn't have any speed at all and goes down way too easy. He can avoid some rushers but just about any qb in the league can do that. So i actually think this is a weak area for him. His accuracy is again, only decent. I would not call accuracy a strength of orton. Reading defenses? He's not that bad, but he's no wizard at it either.

So i'm not here to bash on him and say he sucks like alot of people are doing but i'm not believing he has a great deal more to offer this team. I guess in the big picture, after trading away the previous starter, he was an adequate stop gap qb with only a 1 year contract and maybe that's just what mcd was looking for as he had the daunting task for rebuilding an entire team, especially one with such a putrid defense as we had last year. Mcd really didn't go out of his way to give up anything for orton, he was really a throw in with the picks. Maybe mcd hoped he could be something more but it turns out he really isn't. I personally don't think orton is in the long term future for mcd's plans for this team.

+1

rugbythug
12-27-2009, 07:53 PM
Does Orton have undiagnosed Vertigo? He falls down all the time.

bronco610
12-27-2009, 07:55 PM
Howdy, SoCal --

When I look at Orton's actual stats for the year, in my opinion he doesn't look as awful as everyone makes him out to be. Just for my own amusement, I did a little comparison of Orton's stats for the year so far with Elway's stats over the first 12 years of his career. I considered only the first 12 years to remove the "Shanahan factor." Orton never worked with Shanahan, so I thought it fair to also consider Elway's performance without Shanahan.

* In the first 12 years of his career, only once did Elway's completion percentage match or beat Orton for this year. Orton is at 62.7; Elway had a 63.2 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, only two times did Elway throw more TDs than Orton has for this year. Elway had 22 in 1985 and 25 in 1993. Orton has 20 with one more game to go.

* In the first 12 years, Elway's QB rating matched or beat Orton's for this year just once. Orton is currently at 89.3; Elway had a 92.8 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, Elway threw more INTs every year but one than Orton has this year. In John's rookie year, 1983, he threw 7 INTs while playing 11 games. Orton so far has 9 through 15 games.

I'M NOT ARGUING THAT ORTON IS ELWAY'S EQUAL OR BETTER. I'm pointing out these numbers as a way of highlighting that, even 11 years later, I think that Bronco fans tend to view Elway's whole careeer through the orange-colored glasses of his last three or four years.

I think there's one more factor, too, that makes a difference in how we as Bronco fans view Orton: he's not flashy. He doesn't have the running and scrambling skills of an Elway or a Plummer, and he doesn't have Elway's or Cutler's cannon arm. He looks so much like one of the guys sitting in the seats, or watching the game from home, that the guys think "Oh, I could have gotten away from that rush! Why didn't Orton see <whatever>?" It's an illusion because Orton doesn't have the flashy abilities that set him apart from Joe Street.

Even without the flash, it's my opinion that Orton is doing well enough this year that I'd like to see what more he can do now that he's learning the system in "live fire" conditions. With another off-season to study and learn, turning theory into game experience on film, and with McDaniels (I trust) addressing the clear problems on the offensive line, I don't think we've seen yet just where the ceiling is for Kyle Orton's abilities.

(But then, I'm one of the cheerleaders who really thought that Quentin Griffith would be something special. So my thoughts on this subject too are probably just about worth what you paid for them. :smile: )

Orton has more talent around him than John did. He should be better than he has played.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 07:57 PM
Orton has more talent around him than John did. He should be better than he has played.

OMane myth. We really have a long track record here of over-estimating the Broncos individual talent levels. Aside from Marshall this season, there really haven't been a lot of guys on the offensive side of the ball that have screamed "probowl talent".

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 07:58 PM
Orton has more talent around him than John did. He should be better than he has played.

Hmm. That would be an interesting comparison too, but more number-crunching than I have time to tackle (so to speak). It would be easy enough to compare the skill position players on offense across the years, but much tougher to figure out a formula for rating the offensive linemen.

KipCorrington25
12-27-2009, 07:58 PM
I think he's a below average NFL started, maybe 25th out of 32 starting QB's. Basically he is a nice guy, trys hard, but is in slow motion out there and can't break open a game...

dsmoot
12-27-2009, 07:59 PM
Howdy, SoCal --

When I look at Orton's actual stats for the year, in my opinion he doesn't look as awful as everyone makes him out to be. Just for my own amusement, I did a little comparison of Orton's stats for the year so far with Elway's stats over the first 12 years of his career. I considered only the first 12 years to remove the "Shanahan factor." Orton never worked with Shanahan, so I thought it fair to also consider Elway's performance without Shanahan.

* In the first 12 years of his career, only once did Elway's completion percentage match or beat Orton for this year. Orton is at 62.7; Elway had a 63.2 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, only two times did Elway throw more TDs than Orton has for this year. Elway had 22 in 1985 and 25 in 1993. Orton has 20 with one more game to go.

* In the first 12 years, Elway's QB rating matched or beat Orton's for this year just once. Orton is currently at 89.3; Elway had a 92.8 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, Elway threw more INTs every year but one than Orton has this year. In John's rookie year, 1983, he threw 7 INTs while playing 11 games. Orton so far has 9 through 15 games.

I'M NOT ARGUING THAT ORTON IS ELWAY'S EQUAL OR BETTER. I'm pointing out these numbers as a way of highlighting that, even 11 years later, I think that Bronco fans tend to view Elway's whole careeer through the orange-colored glasses of his last three or four years.

I think there's one more factor, too, that makes a difference in how we as Bronco fans view Orton: he's not flashy. He doesn't have the running and scrambling skills of an Elway or a Plummer, and he doesn't have Elway's or Cutler's cannon arm. He looks so much like one of the guys sitting in the seats, or watching the game from home, that the guys think "Oh, I could have gotten away from that rush! Why didn't Orton see <whatever>?" It's an illusion because Orton doesn't have the flashy abilities that set him apart from Joe Street.

Even without the flash, it's my opinion that Orton is doing well enough this year that I'd like to see what more he can do now that he's learning the system in "live fire" conditions. With another off-season to study and learn, turning theory into game experience on film, and with McDaniels (I trust) addressing the clear problems on the offensive line, I don't think we've seen yet just where the ceiling is for Kyle Orton's abilities.

(But then, I'm one of the cheerleaders who really thought that Quentin Griffith would be something special. So my thoughts on this subject too are probably just about worth what you paid for them. :smile: )

I quickly got lost in your statistics. Why??? Elway skills afforded him the ability to come from behind regardless of the type of day he was having. In crunch time, he had the ability to focus and raise his game without turning the ball over. He struck fear into opponents. Kyle Orton strikes fear in no one, except whose team he is leading.

BroncoBen
12-27-2009, 08:01 PM
People keep forgetting the fact that Orton has been hurt for all but 2 or 3 games this season. He had to wear a freaking glove for the first month and wasn't comfortable at all throwing the ball. He then got the foot injury and had absolutely no strength to push off or move in the pocket for another couple of games.

He may not look better next year as a result of purely having another year under his belt in the system, but he may look better next year purely because he's actually healthy and able to do everything he could normally do. Things we maybe haven't even seen yet.

And next year if he gets hurt what is going to be the excuse..? There are no guarentees that Orton is going to play all 16 games healthy.

To me Orton is never going to take a team on his back and go out and make the throws or run for the 1st down, lead the team in a game winning drive.

Orton is good enough to get the team to a 8-8 or 9-7 season, is that good enough?

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:04 PM
I think he's a below average NFL started, maybe 25th out of 32 starting QB's. Basically he is a nice guy, trys hard, but is in slow motion out there and can't break open a game...

Short memories around here.....not just you, but a lot of the people coming out of the woodwork against Orton after a game in which our defense didn't bother playing until halftime, and then, only for 1.8 quarters. I guess we're too far removed now from the Cowboys, Skins and Pats games for people to remember what he is truly capable of when the gameplan calls for him to throw it all over the field.

ScottXray
12-27-2009, 08:05 PM
Orton has been Okay, but he is not a Long term answer.
One thing that bothers me is he tends to take unnecessary sacks
at times , and when he is able to run for a first he tends to throw it...way too hard (as evidenced in the first half today) , to anybody he sees. He will make a play one series then crap the bed the next.

Inconsistent.

On the other hand he does not make to many mistakes that lead to turnovers, even when he takes unnecessary losses.

I think he will start again next year...unless he wants a big money contract...
(doubtful since he can't carry a team single handedly..he needs a good offense around him.)

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:05 PM
To me Orton is never going to take a team on his back and go out and make the throws or run for the 1st down, lead the team in a game winning drive.


Tell that to the Pats and Cowboys.

Orton is good enough to get the team to a 8-8 or 9-7 season, is that good enough?

His career record says he's capable of a little more than that.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 08:09 PM
Tell that to the Pats and Cowboys.



His career record says he's capable of a little more than that.

Marshall beat the Cowboys, Orton basically gave him the ball and then got the hell out of the way.

Quoydogs
12-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Howdy, SoCal --

When I look at Orton's actual stats for the year, in my opinion he doesn't look as awful as everyone makes him out to be. Just for my own amusement, I did a little comparison of Orton's stats for the year so far with Elway's stats over the first 12 years of his career. I considered only the first 12 years to remove the "Shanahan factor." Orton never worked with Shanahan, so I thought it fair to also consider Elway's performance without Shanahan.

* In the first 12 years of his career, only once did Elway's completion percentage match or beat Orton for this year. Orton is at 62.7; Elway had a 63.2 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, only two times did Elway throw more TDs than Orton has for this year. Elway had 22 in 1985 and 25 in 1993. Orton has 20 with one more game to go.

* In the first 12 years, Elway's QB rating matched or beat Orton's for this year just once. Orton is currently at 89.3; Elway had a 92.8 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, Elway threw more INTs every year but one than Orton has this year. In John's rookie year, 1983, he threw 7 INTs while playing 11 games. Orton so far has 9 through 15 games.

I'M NOT ARGUING THAT ORTON IS ELWAY'S EQUAL OR BETTER. I'm pointing out these numbers as a way of highlighting that, even 11 years later, I think that Bronco fans tend to view Elway's whole careeer through the orange-colored glasses of his last three or four years.

I think there's one more factor, too, that makes a difference in how we as Bronco fans view Orton: he's not flashy. He doesn't have the running and scrambling skills of an Elway or a Plummer, and he doesn't have Elway's or Cutler's cannon arm. He looks so much like one of the guys sitting in the seats, or watching the game from home, that the guys think "Oh, I could have gotten away from that rush! Why didn't Orton see <whatever>?" It's an illusion because Orton doesn't have the flashy abilities that set him apart from Joe Street.

Even without the flash, it's my opinion that Orton is doing well enough this year that I'd like to see what more he can do now that he's learning the system in "live fire" conditions. With another off-season to study and learn, turning theory into game experience on film, and with McDaniels (I trust) addressing the clear problems on the offensive line, I don't think we've seen yet just where the ceiling is for Kyle Orton's abilities.

(But then, I'm one of the cheerleaders who really thought that Quentin Griffith would be something special. So my thoughts on this subject too are probably just about worth what you paid for them. :smile: )

Not trying to be rude here but I am tired of seeing how good his completion rating is, It is a flawed stat. He only throws it 5 yards and that is why we are in the boat we are in. That is why we suck in th ered zone. As you get closer to the redzone the small 5 yard holes fill up and he can not complete a pass.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:14 PM
Marshall beat the Cowboys, Orton basically gave him the ball and then got the hell out of the way.

thank you, Michael Irvin.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:15 PM
Not trying to be rude here but I am tired of seeing how good his completion rating is, It is a flawed stat. He only throws it 5 yards and that is why we are in the boat we are in. That is why we suck in th ered zone. As you get closer to the redzone the small 5 yard holes fill up and he can not complete a pass.

Gaffney and Moreno disagree.

ZONA
12-27-2009, 08:16 PM
Does Orton have undiagnosed Vertigo? He falls down all the time.

This is maybe the biggest problem I have with Orton. I understand you don't want your QB dancing around in the backfield trying to avoid defenders like Barry Sanders but cmon already, even Peyton Manning puts up more of a fight then Orton does in the pocket, and that's saying alot. At the slightest touch, he's been just curling up like a scared child and falling to the ground. At least make one move to try and escape. If the defender has a good grasp then fine, fall forwards. But I can't stand this crap where a hand touches his shoulder pad for a second and he packs it in.

TheChamp24
12-27-2009, 08:19 PM
Orton is an above average QB that requires talent around him to be a decent starting QB. He doesn't make too many mistakes in terms of turning the ball over, but he can kill drives.
He stands in the pocket and goes down very easily.
Sometimes when he even sees a blitz coming he fires the pass off for an incompletion or 2 yard gain without really attempting to find someone downfield.
He can be too hesitant when throwing, and this is ironic because we accused Cutler of being too gunslinger. You need a nice balance, I just think Orton hangs on to the ball too long and dinks it down the field too much.
That said, most often he won't lose you a game, but he can make it hard to win a game if that makes since without a lot of help.

bronco610
12-27-2009, 08:20 PM
OMane myth. We really have a long track record here of over-estimating the Broncos individual talent levels. Aside from Marshall this season, there really haven't been a lot of guys on the offensive side of the ball that have screamed "probowl talent".

I have a few for you, Sammy winder and the three amigos.

bronco610
12-27-2009, 08:21 PM
Elway could carry a team of nondescript talent. Orton cant.

sisterhellfyre
12-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Not trying to be rude here but I am tired of seeing how good his completion rating is, It is a flawed stat. He only throws it 5 yards and that is why we are in the boat we are in. That is why we suck in th ered zone. As you get closer to the redzone the small 5 yard holes fill up and he can not complete a pass.

Fair point. :-) A little more digging:

Elway, first 12 years:
Yards per Completion Avg: 12.61
Yards per Attempt Avg: 7.0

Orton, this year:
Yards per Completion Avg: 11.10
Yards per Attempt Avg: 6.95

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing a huge difference there...?

gunns
12-27-2009, 08:26 PM
I'm not believing he has a great deal more to offer this team.

This is where I'm at.

My evaluation of Orton has remained the same through out the year. He is an average QB with limited upside that very depended on clean pocket to be effective. He has standard NFL arm, OK release and no mobility and little accuracy (it especial bad when he doesn't set his feet properly). He is over caution with the ball and rather check down then attempt to put it into tight coverage. While at time that fine decision, it can also hurt a team when the money throw, needs to be made on 3rd downs, when WR/TE has tight coverage on him.


And this.

OMane myth. We really have a long track record here of over-estimating the Broncos individual talent levels. Aside from Marshall this season, there really haven't been a lot of guys on the offensive side of the ball that have screamed "probowl talent".

Maybe, but with even less talent John took teams to SB's. We'll never have John, but we do need a QB that when he walks on the field, we have hope, that he'll rally the team and take us down the field. I just don't have it with Orton. Of course I haven't had it since John left. Almost did with Griese, never did with Plummer, was confused by Cutler.

strafen
12-27-2009, 08:28 PM
What you've seen in Orton so far is what you got.
The guy is not going to bet any better than what you've seen so far.
To have him back as our starter will guarantee another mediocre season. Book it!

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 08:29 PM
Orton is an above average QB that requires talent around him to be a decent starting QB. He doesn't make too many mistakes in terms of turning the ball over, but he can kill drives.
He stands in the pocket and goes down very easily.
Sometimes when he even sees a blitz coming he fires the pass off for an incompletion or 2 yard gain without really attempting to find someone downfield.
He can be too hesitant when throwing, and this is ironic because we accused Cutler of being too gunslinger. You need a nice balance, I just think Orton hangs on to the ball too long and dinks it down the field too much.
That said, most often he won't lose you a game, but he can make it hard to win a game if that makes since without a lot of help.

bingo.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:29 PM
I have a few for you, Sammy winder and the three amigos.

I'm confused. Are you saying they sucked?

strafen
12-27-2009, 08:30 PM
Fair point. :-) A little more digging:

Elway, first 12 years:
Yards per Completion Avg: 12.61
Yards per Attempt Avg: 7.0

Orton, this year:
Yards per Completion Avg: 11.10
Yards per Attempt Avg: 6.95

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing a huge difference there...?Those numbers don't tell the full story.
Sure numbers matter and all, but you have to believe what you see also.
Have you seen anything in Orton that exudes confidence to be out long-term QB?
His numbers today were good, but he didn't make the plays a qB needs to make to give his team an edge and pull a win in a game like this out

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:30 PM
Elway could carry a team of nondescript talent. Orton cant.

Who did Orton have on offense in Chicago? And before you say "the defense carried them", you might want to look at their actual rankings last year. They were VERY similar in every statistical category to this year. If anything, they were worse.

Hamrob
12-27-2009, 08:31 PM
Short memories around here.....not just you, but a lot of the people coming out of the woodwork against Orton after a game in which our defense didn't bother playing until halftime, and then, only for 1.8 quarters. I guess we're too far removed now from the Cowboys, Skins and Pats games for people to remember what he is truly capable of when the gameplan calls for him to throw it all over the field.Kyle Orton sucks (period). He is an average player at best. Fans like you are o.k. with average...becasue you cross your fingers for a wild card game and then you are satisfied if we get there. Kyle Orton is the guy for fans like you.

But, for fans like me, who actually want a chance at another SuperBowl, he is not the guy.

Kyle Orton is the equivelance to Brian Griese and the worst Broncos QB since Norris Weese. Remember him? You're not Norris are you?

Kyle Orton sucks...anybody who argues otherwise, comes across as ignorant.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:31 PM
Maybe, but with even less talent John took teams to SB's. We'll never have John, but we do need a QB that when he walks on the field, we have hope, that he'll rally the team and take us down the field. I just don't have it with Orton. Of course I haven't had it since John left. Almost did with Griese, never did with Plummer, was confused by Cutler.

I think 4 out of our 6 wins in the 6-0 run were come from behind 2nd half victories. The NE game in particular required 2 90+ yard TD drives.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:33 PM
Kyle Orton sucks (period). He is an average player at best. Fans like you are o.k. with average...becasue you cross your fingers for a wild card game and then you are satisfied if we get there. Kyle Orton is the guy for fans like you.

But, for fans like me, who actually want a chance at another SuperBowl, he is not the guy.

Kyle Orton is the equivelance to Brian Griese and the worst Broncos QB since Norris Weese. Remember him? You're not Norris are you?

Kyle Orton sucks...anybody who argues otherwise, comes across as ignorant.

Your post defines ignorance. But since you obviously don't know the definition of the word, I wouldn't expect you to know that.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 08:33 PM
Who did Orton have on offense in Chicago? And before you say "the defense carried them", you might want to look at their actual rankings last year. They were VERY similar in every statistical category to this year. If anything, they were worse.

Yeah, but didn't they lead the league in ST and DEF scoring? Plus you can take into account the fact that the offense's inability to control the clock effectively puts the defense out there more often, thereby allowing for more scoring chances and more yards.

bpc
12-27-2009, 08:33 PM
I still can't believe people are defending this guy. It isn't that people HATE Orton. He's just not that good. He's definitely not a difference maker. He gets you 8 yds on 3rd down, when you need 10. That is basically it. Orton in a nutshell. He's never won anything significant and he never will. Unfortunate for Bronco fans but true.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:39 PM
Plus you can take into account the fact that the offense's inability to control the clock effectively puts the defense out there more often, thereby allowing for more scoring chances and more yards.

Huh? We've won the TOP battle quite a bit with him this season, even with the largely nonexistent running game.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 08:40 PM
Huh? We've won the TOP battle quite a bit with him this season, even with the largely nonexistent running game.

With the way the defense played for 85% of the year, we should be killing it in TOP, not barely squeaking by.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:44 PM
It isn't that people HATE Orton.

All evidence to the contrary:

Kyle Orton sucks (period). Kyle Orton is the equivelance to Brian Griese and the worst Broncos QB since Norris Weese. Remember him? You're not Norris are you?

Kyle Orton sucks...anybody who argues otherwise, comes across as ignorant.

Yes, we need a QB. And yes the Broncos need to tell Orton to pack his **** and leave the day after the season is over.

Orton jt doesn't have it man.
I was pissed off when we got him, and still didn't do anything to change my mind.
The guy is just a terrible QB, period!

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:46 PM
With the way the defense played for 85% of the year, we should be killing it in TOP, not barely squeaking by.

Outside of about 4 or 5 games, the defense has really not played like world beaters for even 3/4 of a game. Somehow, though, because of how much better they look compared to last year at times, people have this warped sense that they are some all-time great unit out there.

They have sucked for at least 2 quarters almost every other game.

bpc
12-27-2009, 08:48 PM
I don't think that people hate him. They are just calling in limited. Which is true.

I despised Brian Griese. But I would take Brian over Orton. Brian had a better arm and better mobility. Kyle is gritty but in the end does that produce 1st downs? No? Then give me the more talented QB.

Regardless, Denver has a huge hole in the backfield and at many other positions. Orton will be lucky if he ever wins a playoff game in his career. That's just a fact. He doesn't have the goods to thrive in this league which is evidenced by our 2-7 record coming down the stretch.

strafen
12-27-2009, 08:52 PM
All evidence to the contrary:Telling like it is, and saying the things that are true that you don't want to hear, don't constitute hate.
The fact of the matter is Orton has limited abilities to play QB.
This is a direct result of our play calling faults for trying to game plan around our QB abilities or lack thereof
When you have a guy that looks to throw short and dink and dunk as his first option throughout 15 games,
teams are going to stack up the line and make us one-dimensional.
They're going to push our OL all day long and shutdown our running game and our passing game with one simple philosophy.
Rush the line!

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 09:01 PM
Orton will be lucky if he ever wins a playoff game in his career. That's just a fact.

It's a fact? Why? Because you say so? Ok there, sport.

He doesn't have the goods to thrive in this league which is evidenced by our 2-7 record coming down the stretch.

The Broncos were doing that long before he showed up.

broncolife
12-27-2009, 09:03 PM
Outside of about 4 or 5 games, the defense has really not played like world beaters for even 3/4 of a game. Somehow, though, because of how much better they look compared to last year at times, people have this warped sense that they are some all-time great unit out there.

They have sucked for at least 2 quarters almost every other game.


2009 D in 15 games 20 fumbles + 15 ints =35 turnovers, 39 sacks

2008 D in 16 games 9 fumbles + 6 = 15 turnovers, 26 sacks

Compared to last years D you think this O would have way more time of Possession than last years O. But instead its only a minute difference.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 09:08 PM
2009 D in 15 games 20 fumbles + 15 ints =35 turnovers, 39 sacks

2008 D in 16 games 9 fumbles + 6 = 15 turnovers, 26 sacks

Compared to last years D you think this O would have way more time of Possession than last years O. But instead its only a minute difference.

Looking at only turnovers and sacks are flawed. When they occur in drives makes a huge difference and can skew the numbers. A better stat would possibly be to look at the average number of plays they are out there during each drive on average.

broncogary
12-27-2009, 09:31 PM
Arm - Average to weak.
Accuracy - Average to weak.
Short Throwing ability - Decent
Long throwing ability - Poor
Decision Making - Poor
Pocket Presence - Poor
Scrambling Ability - Poor
Intangibles - Poor/Gritty

Is your kid posting on your computer? Hilarious! The only of the above you are even close to right on is scrambing ability, and I'd give him an average on that.

broncolife
12-27-2009, 09:36 PM
Looking at only turnovers and sacks are flawed. When they occur in drives makes a huge difference and can skew the numbers. A better stat would possibly be to look at the average number of plays they are out there during each drive on average.

are you talking about the D or O?

If its the O. I am saying the O should have a better time of Possession because of all the extra chances they are getting. Last years O had to drive the field to score, this years O takes advantage off of turnovers our D creates. If our D doesnt get these turnovers we lose alot more games. What put us back into todays game was the D not Orton .

If its the D. I would say our O sucks and that why they are on the field more.

todays O drives

3 and out
3 and out
3 and out
Finally a td drive only decent drive without any help with field position.
D gets and int that sets the O up at the Phi 45. We get a field goal
Int
great field position set up by our D at Phi 25. We get a TD
Kickoff fumble set up by one of our Defenders.We get the ball at Phi 16. We get a TD.
3 and out
3 and out
Crap punt gives broncos great field position at Den 44. We get field goal.
3 and out

go_broncos
12-27-2009, 09:43 PM
Orton is better than Cutler..But, both of them suck.
Cutler has arm, no brain. Orton has no arm, better decission making than cutler.

With Orton, your team will be average record wise(9-7,8-8,10-6).
We will never win a playoff game with him.

I hope we get a QB in the upcoming draft if Mcd thinks Tom is not the answer.

yavoon
12-27-2009, 09:47 PM
Fair point. :-) A little more digging:

Elway, first 12 years:
Yards per Completion Avg: 12.61
Yards per Attempt Avg: 7.0

Orton, this year:
Yards per Completion Avg: 11.10
Yards per Attempt Avg: 6.95

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing a huge difference there...?

that's some judo pwn right there.

TheReverend
12-27-2009, 09:51 PM
Pocket presence - Average
Arm strength - Sub par
Accuracy - Average
Leadership - Above Average
Decision making - Above Average
Scrambling ability - Bledsoe
Throwing on the run - Poor

bronco610
12-27-2009, 09:56 PM
I'm confused. Are you saying they sucked?

Pretty much. They certainly were not world beaters. They didn't compare with marshal or even stokely.

TheChamp24
12-27-2009, 10:38 PM
Stop comparing Orton's stats to Elway's, different league tendencies in different eras.
Anyways, I really think two things need to get better, our run blocking and a better QB in order to really compete.
Right now, I don't think it would be wise to offer a ton of money to Orton, but we just may do that. Heck, Plummer got his phat contract doing pretty crappy in Arizona.
Some people really hate him, but Sam Bradford I think could do well here in Denver. If this is the direction we want to go, take him in the 1st if he falls, sign a QB to basically to be a 1 year stop gap for Sam, and then let Sam take over in 2011. People might be against it for giving up on a season, but teams need it to rebuild.
My biggest concern really is shoring up the front 7 on D and fixing the OL which has gone severely downhill.

strafen
12-27-2009, 10:44 PM
Fair point. :-) A little more digging:

Elway, first 12 years:
Yards per Completion Avg: 12.61
Yards per Attempt Avg: 7.0

Orton, this year:
Yards per Completion Avg: 11.10
Yards per Attempt Avg: 6.95

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing a huge difference there...?You're out of your freakin' mind man.
This is hilarious.
I can't believe how homerism clouds the judgment of people.
Those numbers are not an indication that Orton will be good.
Elway had it all, arm, talent, mobility, greatness, he had IT.
Orton just doesn't have IT. He flat out sucks!

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:52 PM
Here's the real question...

Do we want to build an O-line? What's easier, replacing a starting QB who has done pretty well, or replacing a center and a guard? (For example.)

Personally, here's what I think Orton is excellent when he has time to throw. I think he makes fantastic decisions. I think he's smart with the football, almost always. I think he gives us a chance to win most games.

What he's not, is a stand-on-his-head come-back QB. (Though, he did come back from 17 today, with some help.)

On the downside, Orton isn't mobile. I think his pocket presence is good, but he can't get out of his own way. He's just not terribly agile... to say the least.

I don't know... I definitely see Orton's limitations, but to me, there's no question the right thing to do is bring him back. We can work on a plan for the future, but we need him back next season while we figure it out. He's earned the chance.

That's just my opinion, of course.

My prediction, is that there is NO QUESTION he's brought back and made the starter, and the emphasis will be on the O-line.

Clockwork Orange
12-27-2009, 11:05 PM
On the downside, Orton isn't mobile. I think his pocket presence is good, but he can't get out of his own way. He's just not terribly agile... to say the least.

This is the part I disagree on. Orton's pocket presence and awareness are subpar. A lot of the time when the pressure is coming, he not only doesn't seem to have that clock in his head that tells him it's time to step up or move, but the times that he does, he has this weird habit of moving right into the oncoming rushers. He's not mobile, but that's not really the problem there. Guys like Brady and Rivers aren't mobile either, but they are good at sensing a rush coming and sliding around in the pocket to buy time. Orton just doesn't seem to be adept at it.

He's the best option right now until something better comes along or can be groomed to take his place. My hope is that the Broncos don't throw the kind of dollars at him this offseason that basically marries them to him like KC did with Cassel.

Popps
12-27-2009, 11:10 PM
This is the part I disagree on. Orton's pocket presence and awareness are subpar. A lot of the time when the pressure is coming, he not only doesn't seem to have that clock in his head that tells him it's time to step up or move, but the times that he does, he has this weird habit of moving right into the oncoming rushers. He's not mobile, but that's not really the problem there. Guys like Brady and Rivers aren't mobile either,

Yep, we couldn't disagree more.

I think Orton feels the rush just fine. I just think he's confident an wants to stand in there and make the throws. I rarely have that Brian Griese-moment where I'm screaming at the TV as he stands there like a statue. I think he knows it's coming, but wants to go through his reads. The problem is, by the time there's no one to throw to... he can't escape.

I also disagree about Brady/Rivers. (Rivers in particular.) I think they are both VERY agile in the pocket and VERY tough to bring down. Rivers is a strong, athletic guy. Much more so than Orton. Did you see that play he made to elude the rush and throw to Gates the other night? I like Kyle, but if he lives to be 100, he'll never make a play like that.

Brady and Rivers are simply just better athletes. They have incredible pocket awareness AND the ability to do something about it. That's why they're arguably the 2nd and 3rd best QBS in football, at any given time.

Anyway, agree to disagree. Whether it's physical ability or awareness, Orton isn't great under pressure, usually. So, if you want to win with him... like Warner, you'd better protect him.

Kurt Warner always seems to have all ****ing day to throw the ball. Kyle will need that kind of time. If we're not committed to building a line that can provide that kind of time, then we'd best be looking for the next Rivers/McNabb/Roethlisberger, etc.

Broncos4tw
12-27-2009, 11:19 PM
He is not aware at ALL.. what games are you watching? He wants to stand in there and throw? Then why in the hell doesn't he DO IT? He collapses or throws the ball way. Your love of the guy is blinding you to the obvious. If someone is coming on his blind side, he has NO idea where he is. Good QBs know they have X seconds to do something before the guy they just lost in their field of vision, are going to be breathing down their neck. He does not have this ability.

Ask yourself this. If Marshall was not on our team... if it had not worked out, how wonderful would Orton's stats be? Marshall, an actual franchise player, is making him look much better than he is, with amazing catches and YAC. If Marshall had a Manning throwing to him, he'd probably be setting records.

Orton is average, and I don't get why people are standing up for him. He is a new player, not like he is an oldtime Bronco you feel the need to defend. Like the attitude, hate the ability (lack thereof). He has shown nothing special to me, that any decent backup QB in the league couldn't do just as well.

Consider the third and 2. TWO YARDS. He had a huge space in front of him, probably could have gained 6. He threw a poor pass, and that was the end of the drive, when we needed it most. THAT is him in a nutshell. Unaware of the situation, poor passes, unable to pull us out when we need it. You are supporting this why? You sure are you are Bronco fans? I want the team to win. Supporting a QB who if we keep him, will mire us forever in mediocrity doesn't seem like the thing to do, if you really want our team to win.

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 11:21 PM
he is the best back up in the NFL

ZONA
12-27-2009, 11:21 PM
Here's the real question...

Do we want to build an O-line? What's easier, replacing a starting QB who has done pretty well, or replacing a center and a guard? (For example.)

Personally, here's what I think Orton is excellent when he has time to throw. I think he makes fantastic decisions. I think he's smart with the football, almost always. I think he gives us a chance to win most games.

What he's not, is a stand-on-his-head come-back QB. (Though, he did come back from 17 today, with some help.)

On the downside, Orton isn't mobile. I think his pocket presence is good, but he can't get out of his own way. He's just not terribly agile... to say the least.

I don't know... I definitely see Orton's limitations, but to me, there's no question the right thing to do is bring him back. We can work on a plan for the future, but we need him back next season while we figure it out. He's earned the chance.

That's just my opinion, of course.

My prediction, is that there is NO QUESTION he's brought back and made the starter, and the emphasis will be on the O-line.


Bah - I know we need help at C and LG and that should help but when the defense puts 7 and 8 in the box, doesn't matter how good the line is. Teams are crowding the heck out of the LOS because they know we are going to try and run and throw quick outs and screens. Safeties don't have to really guard the middle deep. Between Orton not throwing great deep balls and us not having lagit deep threats, nobody really needs to commit more then 1 safety to help the deep field. We basically are playing 4/4 defenses every week. Really tough to block that. It just gets so congested with men, lanes are limited.

So you are suggesting we bring Orton back for year 2 and we should figure it out then. After that season it will be year 2 into the rebuild and maybe then we should draft somebody, or get Tom in there? NO WAY. I don't like that idea of being in our 3rd year of the rebuild to start another QB and start all over again. No Thanks. I'd rather draft another QB early and try him or start Tom and draft another QB late as yet another person to groom.

7 4ever
12-27-2009, 11:24 PM
I am ready to see Orton make a come back next season behind a revamped o-line and a more powerful running game, he is an efficient QB who does not make mistakes and given the right time to throw he can get the job done; he is not John Elway by any means and will never be, he is more like a better version of SOB with great leadership skills, I really think he can lead this team deep into the playoffs with superior talent around him.

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 11:24 PM
Here's the real question...

Do we want to build an O-line? What's easier, replacing a starting QB who has done pretty well, or replacing a center and a guard? (For example.)

Personally, here's what I think Orton is excellent when he has time to throw. I think he makes fantastic decisions. I think he's smart with the football, almost always. I think he gives us a chance to win most games.

What he's not, is a stand-on-his-head come-back QB. (Though, he did come back from 17 today, with some help.)

On the downside, Orton isn't mobile. I think his pocket presence is good, but he can't get out of his own way. He's just not terribly agile... to say the least.

I don't know... I definitely see Orton's limitations, but to me, there's no question the right thing to do is bring him back. We can work on a plan for the future, but we need him back next season while we figure it out. He's earned the chance.

That's just my opinion, of course.

My prediction, is that there is NO QUESTION he's brought back and made the starter, and the emphasis will be on the O-line.

I have no problem getting bigger on the oline but we should fire McD he is not a Pro Coach he has no Idea how to utilize what he has .

We need to hire a Steelers coordinator

Broncos4tw
12-27-2009, 11:48 PM
I don't believe that. McD was the coordinator on a team that broke all records, and went unbeaten. Difference? They have a franchise QB, we do not. You can only work with the tools you have.

You *want* to work with Craftsman, or SnapOn, or Husky, or something like that... but you end up with the Walmart Steelman version of QB. There is only so much you can do with it, or you'll break it.

ZONA
12-27-2009, 11:58 PM
http://ballstjournal.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/kyle-orton3.jpg = http://www.soundcontrol4less.com/images/stopGap.jpg

2KBack
12-28-2009, 01:06 AM
I don't believe that. McD was the coordinator on a team that broke all records, and went unbeaten. Difference? They have a franchise QB, we do not. You can only work with the tools you have.

You *want* to work with Craftsman, or SnapOn, or Husky, or something like that... but you end up with the Walmart Steelman version of QB. There is only so much you can do with it, or you'll break it.

Yes that's a good comparison. Let's compare the season of an 8 year veteran who's been in the same system his entire career and on a team that has been hearalded for it's coaching, with the guy who has less than 3 full seasons of starting experience, and only 15 games of it on a team with competent offensive coaches.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 01:09 AM
I have no problem getting bigger on the oline but we should fire McD he is not a Pro Coach he has no Idea how to utilize what he has .

We need to hire a Steelers coordinator

you do realize that the powerhouse steelers are going to be a whole 9-7 at best this year right, coming off a championship season? Yeah those guys know how to keep a great thing going, they aren't coasting on talent at all.

TailgateNut
12-28-2009, 07:01 AM
Arm - Average to weak.
Accuracy - Average to weak.
Short Throwing ability - Decent
Long throwing ability - Poor
Decision Making - Poor
Pocket Presence - Poor
Scrambling Ability - Poor
Intangibles - Poor/Gritty


:spit:

elsid13
12-28-2009, 07:05 AM
Here's the real question...

Do we want to build an O-line? What's easier, replacing a starting QB who has done pretty well, or replacing a center and a guard? (For example.)

Personally, here's what I think Orton is excellent when he has time to throw. I think he makes fantastic decisions. I think he's smart with the football, almost always. I think he gives us a chance to win most games.

What he's not, is a stand-on-his-head come-back QB. (Though, he did come back from 17 today, with some help.)

On the downside, Orton isn't mobile. I think his pocket presence is good, but he can't get out of his own way. He's just not terribly agile... to say the least.

I don't know... I definitely see Orton's limitations, but to me, there's no question the right thing to do is bring him back. We can work on a plan for the future, but we need him back next season while we figure it out. He's earned the chance.

That's just my opinion, of course.

My prediction, is that there is NO QUESTION he's brought back and made the starter, and the emphasis will be on the O-line.

You post like it either or decision. It's not, there are number of moves that can be made that aren't dependent on keeping one player at the expense of improving another area of the team.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 07:07 AM
If Orton can improve on his pocket mobility/pocket awareness that would help his game quite a bit. And I think with some intense offseason coaching he can do that. He's not slow of foot or totally clumsy.

He's actually not a bad QB at all, he's a decent NFL starter.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:15 AM
Trying to be fair here while still miffed about losing today but with only 1 game left in the season, we've now had pretty much an entire season to evaluate Orton. What he does well vs what he does bad and all the average stuff in between.

Can he be successful here long term? I'm not sure. After watching him for a full season, I'm going to say he would be above average but not a big time threat.

The biggest problem I have with Orton is he doesn't have alot of strengths as a QB. He has decent arm strength but it's not great, so it's not a strength. He has decent pocket presence but doesn't have any speed at all and goes down way too easy. He can avoid some rushers but just about any QB in the league can do that. So I actually think this is a weak area for him. His accuracy is again, only decent. I would not call accuracy a strength of Orton. Reading defenses? He's not that bad, but he's no wizard at it either.

So I'm not here to bash on him and say he sucks like alot of people are doing but I'm not believing he has a great deal more to offer this team. I guess in the big picture, after trading away the previous starter, he was an adequate stop gap QB with only a 1 year contract and maybe that's just what McD was looking for as he had the daunting task for rebuilding an entire team, especially one with such a putrid defense as we had last year. McD really didn't go out of his way to give up anything for Orton, he was really a throw in with the picks. Maybe McD hoped he could be something more but it turns out he really isn't. I personally don't think Orton is in the long term future for McD's plans for this team.

ZONA look. A lot of people who have been accused of so called "Bashing" Orton have already pointed out that he's a high maintenance QB that requires and incubator environment in order to be successful. In other words, if your're going to win with Orton as winning 12 plus games, be successful in th playoffs, appear in SBs or even win SB's, Kyle will need a polethora of talent surrounding him. Right now or at this point Kyle is just a Fan Tease and a journeyman backup at best.

If Orton is the starting QB in 2010....expect the same outcome in some form or fashion from 2009.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:19 AM
Here's the real question...

Do we want to build an O-line? What's easier, replacing a starting QB who has done pretty well, or replacing a center and a guard? (For example.)

Personally, here's what I think Orton is excellent when he has time to throw. I think he makes fantastic decisions. I think he's smart with the football, almost always. I think he gives us a chance to win most games.

What he's not, is a stand-on-his-head come-back QB. (Though, he did come back from 17 today, with some help.)

On the downside, Orton isn't mobile. I think his pocket presence is good, but he can't get out of his own way. He's just not terribly agile... to say the least.

I don't know... I definitely see Orton's limitations, but to me, there's no question the right thing to do is bring him back. We can work on a plan for the future, but we need him back next season while we figure it out. He's earned the chance.

That's just my opinion, of course.

My prediction, is that there is NO QUESTION he's brought back and made the starter, and the emphasis will be on the O-line.

Popps you have just admitted that Orton is a career backup QB in this league w/o coming out and stating it in your post.

Enough Said.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 07:31 AM
In other words, if your're going to win with Orton as winning 12 plus games, be successful in th playoffs, appear in SBs or even win SB's, Kyle will need a polethora of talent surrounding him.

You just described every QB in the league, except PERHAPS Manning and Brady. Though I'd even make that argument, and I think successfully, about them.

Name the last QB that was successful according to the criteria above and didn't have a ridiculous defense, special teams or a very talented supporting cast around them on offense?

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:34 AM
Orton has been Okay, but he is not a Long term answer.
One thing that bothers me is he tends to take unnecessary sacks
at times , and when he is able to run for a first he tends to throw it...way too hard (as evidenced in the first half today) , to anybody he sees. He will make a play one series then crap the bed the next.

Inconsistent.

On the other hand he does not make to many mistakes that lead to turnovers, even when he takes unnecessary losses.

I think he will start again next year...unless he wants a big money contract...
(doubtful since he can't carry a team single handedly..he needs a good offense around him.)

So basically Orton is guaranteed to only win 7-10 games for this team. Thats not good enough and won't cut it.

Another thought, btwn McD's rebuilding period of needing to bring his players and finding the right players that can help Orton win 12 plus games, the organization and fans are in for some long growing pains!

Hence this is why I have said its going to take 6 years for Joshua to turn the Broncos into HIS TEAM!

I'm advocating PATIENTS from all my esteemed Homer Bronco Fans while we watch a 30 something year old HC blossom into a possible winner. Rome wasn't built in one day....neither will returning the Broncos back to the top of the AFC west and returning to the SB over night be achieved.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:38 AM
You just described every QB in the league, except PERHAPS Manning and Brady. Though I'd even make that argument, and I think successfully, about them.

Name the last QB that was successful according to the criteria above and didn't have a ridiculous defense, special teams or a very talented supporting cast around them on offense?

How many starting QB's in the league have as many limited talents of Orton?

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 07:39 AM
So basically Orton is guaranteed to only win 7-10 games for this team.

Why? Cause you say so?

I'm advocating PATIENTS from all my esteemed Homer Bronco Fans while we watch a 30 something year old HC blossom into a possible winner.

If you're going to capitalize a word, at least try to spell it right.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 07:41 AM
How many starting QB's in the league have as many limited talents of Orton?

At least half.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:42 AM
you do realize that the powerhouse steelers are going to be a whole 9-7 at best this year right, coming off a championship season? Yeah those guys know how to keep a great thing going, they aren't coasting on talent at all.

Where would this years Steeler's record be right now if they had Orton as their QB vs Ben Rothlesburger?:peace:

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:46 AM
Why? Cause you say so?

Why b/c you disagree?



If you're going to capitalize a word, at least try to spell it right.

The homers in the OM are going to need to humble themselves and learn PATIENTS b/c we have 30 something year old HC that is going to go thru some growing pains and may not win consistently until he's in his 40's! There how's that HOMER!

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:48 AM
At least half.

I doubt that very seriously.:sunshine:

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 07:51 AM
The homers in the OM are going to need to humble themselves and learn PATIENTS b/c we have 30 something year old HC that is going to go thru some growing pains and may not win consistently until he's in his 40's! There how's that HOMER!

Ummm, it's "patience"; not PATIENTS....dumbass. THAT'S what I was talking about.

oubronco
12-28-2009, 07:58 AM
As I watched the game yesterday I kept saying to myself, why do they only throw the ball within 5-8 yds of the line of scrimmage so much? Then they threw it long and my question was answered Orton does not throw the ball downfield like an NFL qb should. He should've led his reciever to the middle with his throw away from the defender, instead he threw it to where the defender had better position than the reciever thus it was intercepted. But why are they not throwing more of the 10-15 yd stuff like New England does?<!-- / message -->

gunns
12-28-2009, 08:25 AM
Howdy, SoCal --

When I look at Orton's actual stats for the year, in my opinion he doesn't look as awful as everyone makes him out to be. Just for my own amusement, I did a little comparison of Orton's stats for the year so far with Elway's stats over the first 12 years of his career. I considered only the first 12 years to remove the "Shanahan factor." Orton never worked with Shanahan, so I thought it fair to also consider Elway's performance without Shanahan.

* In the first 12 years of his career, only once did Elway's completion percentage match or beat Orton for this year. Orton is at 62.7; Elway had a 63.2 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, only two times did Elway throw more TDs than Orton has for this year. Elway had 22 in 1985 and 25 in 1993. Orton has 20 with one more game to go.

* In the first 12 years, Elway's QB rating matched or beat Orton's for this year just once. Orton is currently at 89.3; Elway had a 92.8 in 1993.

* In the first 12 years, Elway threw more INTs every year but one than Orton has this year. In John's rookie year, 1983, he threw 7 INTs while playing 11 games. Orton so far has 9 through 15 games.

I'M NOT ARGUING THAT ORTON IS ELWAY'S EQUAL OR BETTER. I'm pointing out these numbers as a way of highlighting that, even 11 years later, I think that Bronco fans tend to view Elway's whole careeer through the orange-colored glasses of his last three or four years.

I think there's one more factor, too, that makes a difference in how we as Bronco fans view Orton: he's not flashy. He doesn't have the running and scrambling skills of an Elway or a Plummer, and he doesn't have Elway's or Cutler's cannon arm. He looks so much like one of the guys sitting in the seats, or watching the game from home, that the guys think "Oh, I could have gotten away from that rush! Why didn't Orton see <whatever>?" It's an illusion because Orton doesn't have the flashy abilities that set him apart from Joe Street.

Even without the flash, it's my opinion that Orton is doing well enough this year that I'd like to see what more he can do now that he's learning the system in "live fire" conditions. With another off-season to study and learn, turning theory into game experience on film, and with McDaniels (I trust) addressing the clear problems on the offensive line, I don't think we've seen yet just where the ceiling is for Kyle Orton's abilities.

(But then, I'm one of the cheerleaders who really thought that Quentin Griffith would be something special. So my thoughts on this subject too are probably just about worth what you paid for them. :smile: )


Again, stats never tell the whole story.

I was at the store yesterday with my Broncos jacket on. A guy with a Bears sweatshirt on walked by and told me I need to get into a Bears jacket. Told him hell no, he laughed. I told him sorry about that Cutler thing, he said they'd like to give him back. I said no way we didn't want him, we'll keep Orton. He said hell, we don't want him back either.

Garcia Bronco
12-28-2009, 08:33 AM
Orton doesn't do much very well. But he does enough things good enough.

gunns
12-28-2009, 08:33 AM
I'm confused. Are you saying they sucked?

I don't know that they sucked but they were average, far away from pro bowl talent. But we accepted them because Elway made them look good. When we got players like Rod Smith, Eddie Mac, and TD we realized how bad Elway really had it, which made him all the more amazing.

bronco610
12-28-2009, 08:38 AM
As I watched the game yesterday I kept saying to myself, why do they only throw the ball within 5-8 yds of the line of scrimmage so much? Then they threw it long and my question was answered Orton does not throw the ball downfield like an NFL qb should. He should've led his reciever to the middle with his throw away from the defender, instead he threw it to where the defender had better position than the reciever thus it was intercepted. But why are they not throwing more of the 10-15 yd stuff like New England does?<!-- / message -->

Same problem with those throws.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 08:54 AM
As Popps pointed out on another thread, Orton is pretty much the cream of the crop for free-agent QBs anyhow this year. For all that he goes down too easily at times, and has the approximate footspeed of a brick, I was impressed today to see Orton getting full extension and follow-through on his throws. It looks to me like some things are coming together for him so he can just play and attack the defense instead of thinking about everything that he's supposed to do.

I think Orton's going to be the Bronco starter again next year. I'll be real curious to see how much improvement there may be from his first year with McDaniels to the second year.

I agree with this for the most part. What I disagree with is that Orton has brick feet. He actually has fair foot speed when he decides to actually use his feet.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 09:19 AM
Ummm, it's "patience"; not PATIENTS....dumbass. THAT'S what I was talking about.

I could give a flying F*#k.....if you want to be my personal "Editing-Hoe-Biatch" go for it! I only pay minimum wage Dong Face.;)

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 09:20 AM
That might be true, but it's still not a good enough reason to commit to him long term. That he's the best of a sorry bunch doesn't solve the problem. I'd agree with elsid's evaluation. Look, he's a fine stopgap, but that's all he is. If he'd like a short term deal while Denver evaluates how they will acquire their next long term starter, that's fine, he's earned that...he can and will serve as a fine bridge to someone else. I know Herc pointed out a few days back that there's alot of other average QBs getting paid big money when I argued against a long term deal for Orton. I'm not quite sure what he was trying to prove. So what that other mediocre talents got large deals? Are we now somehow compelled to do the same? No. If he doesn't want a short term deal and is offered a long term deal by someone else, by all means he should take that other deal and I will wish him well, as he undoubtedly gave it his best here.

Denver can do better and has done better. Hopefully Josh will find someone he likes in the draft. I was hoping for Locker because he has nasty skills that just need some seasoning, but unfortunately he wont be in the draft. If Josh doesnt like this year's crop, then I'd rather have them just get another journeyman (like Orton) and try to ride out 2010 until a more promising batch of FA's or college players comes along, rather than commit to someone with so many obvious physical limitations. Josh has already made chicken salad out of chicken****, so we know Josh will be able to squeeze every bit of talent out of whoever starts next year. It might not be pretty, but it might be adequate...at least for now.

I guess the key question is - does Orton have upside?

I say Orton does have some upside in him. And, with all due respect, your opinions are lacking credibility right now. Sorry, but I think I have to point that out.

I know as well as anybody else that Orton isn't the GOAT, but I think he gets bagged on way, way too much when all is considered.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 10:03 AM
As I watched the game yesterday I kept saying to myself, why do they only throw the ball within 5-8 yds of the line of scrimmage so much? Then they threw it long and my question was answered Orton does not throw the ball downfield like an NFL qb should. He should've led his reciever to the middle with his throw away from the defender, instead he threw it to where the defender had better position than the reciever thus it was intercepted. But why are they not throwing more of the 10-15 yd stuff like New England does?<!-- / message -->

You're talking about the pick to Scheffler? That was a jump ball to a reciever with a severe size mismatch, why do you think they had a tight end on a corner? In that situation you are expecting your reciever to use the size advantage and make the play on the ball. 5' 10" Asante Samuel jumped up to the ball, 6'6" Scheffler just watched him do it without so much as putting up his hands.

Broncos4tw
12-28-2009, 10:17 AM
Orton is average, nothing more and nothing less. Half of the QBs are equal or less than Orton? Yea.. that would be the half of the NFL that won't be winning a SB anytime soon.

In the grand scheme of things, teams need two things to win a SB. A good team, and a franchise QB. Not one.. BOTH of those things. A good QB alone can't do it (see Elway). A good team alone with a crappy QB can't do it (unless they have an anomaly such as, one of the best defenses in years).

Can you see Orton doing the helicopter spin to keep a drive alive? I can't. I see him getting touched and collapsing in a heap. I can't picture him throwing with a guy hanging off of him, nor running for key first downs, nor making pinpoint accurate throws 18 yards down the field when we need it most.

He is average. Serviceable for regular season, perhaps even a playoff game. But I don't think he has the goods to win us a SB. Nor does Plummer, Griese, or many other middling QBs. Like those QBs before that people defended, Orton is much the same. And no matter how long he is here, we'll get the same results.

If you are happy with a few winning seasons but missing or losing in the first round of the playoffs, sure.. we've found our QB! If you want a real chance at actually winning the SB, this is not the guy you want on our team.

I'm looking at the big picture... I don't think everyone is.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 10:26 AM
In the grand scheme of things, teams need two things to win a SB. A good team, and a franchise QB. Not one.. BOTH of those things.

False.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Orton is average, nothing more and nothing less. Half of the QBs are equal or less than Orton? Yea.. that would be the half of the NFL that won't be winning a SB anytime soon.

In the grand scheme of things, teams need two things to win a SB. A good team, and a franchise QB. Not one.. BOTH of those things. A good QB alone can't do it (see Elway). A good team alone with a crappy QB can't do it (unless they have an anomaly such as, one of the best defenses in years).

Can you see Orton doing the helicopter spin to keep a drive alive? I can't. I see him getting touched and collapsing in a heap. I can't picture him throwing with a guy hanging off of him, nor running for key first downs, nor making pinpoint accurate throws 18 yards down the field when we need it most.

He is average. Serviceable for regular season, perhaps even a playoff game. But I don't think he has the goods to win us a SB. Nor does Plummer, Griese, or many other middling QBs. Like those QBs before that people defended, Orton is much the same. And no matter how long he is here, we'll get the same results.

If you are happy with a few winning seasons but missing or losing in the first round of the playoffs, sure.. we've found our QB! If you want a real chance at actually winning the SB, this is not the guy you want on our team.

I'm looking at the big picture... I don't think everyone is.

Looking at the big picture is exactly the opposite of what you are doing, which is assuming that players exist in some sort of linear time vacuum throughout their career. QB's rarely start as "Franchise" Players (I still think that idiom is absurd). Looking at the big picture isn't evaluating a player based on today, but what he can be tomorrow (even though I personally think your evaluations of the current performances are way off). Every good QB that was then given the arbitrary Franchise label had to be given a chance to grow into a great QB. As far as I'm concerned, when Orton got to Denver. He might as well have been a rookie, and looking at what Chicago has done to Cutler, I'm even more secure in saying that. As a psuedo-rookie he is performing fantastic. I don't think I need to go over the list of "franchise" QB's that started just as unhearalded as Orton do I?

That my friend is looking at the big picture. As Doc Brown would put it, "Thinking 4th demensionally."

oubronco
12-28-2009, 10:32 AM
You're talking about the pick to Scheffler? That was a jump ball to a reciever with a severe size mismatch, why do you think they had a tight end on a corner? In that situation you are expecting your reciever to use the size advantage and make the play on the ball. 5' 10" Asante Samuel jumped up to the ball, 6'6" Scheffler just watched him do it without so much as putting up his hands.

No I believe the one to the other side i believe it was to Marshall

2KBack
12-28-2009, 10:38 AM
No I believe the one to the other side i believe it was to Marshall

Okay, that one. I personally think that one was more of a great play by Brown. Kind of like that diving deflection by Champ later in the game, not as asweome, but equally effective. Marshall could have tried for that ball better as well, but Orton did put a bit too much air under it. That ball was certainly no reason to think Orton can't go deep though, the ball was on the receiver. If Brown doesn't make a diving deflection it's 6, if that exact same pass was instead caught, would you have then deemed Orton a great downfield passer? Something tell me it wouldn't have mattered in a lot of peoples evaluations.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 10:39 AM
It's a fact? Why? Because you say so? Ok there, sport.



The Broncos were doing that long before he showed up.

These guys like bpc, jhns, they have no balance, no credibility.

oubronco
12-28-2009, 10:50 AM
Okay, that one. I personally think that one was more of a great play by Brown. Kind of like that diving deflection by Champ later in the game, not as asweome, but equally effective. Marshall could have tried for that ball better as well, but Orton did put a bit too much air under it. That ball was certainly no reason to think Orton can't go deep though, the ball was on the receiver. If Brown doesn't make a diving deflection it's 6, if that exact same pass was instead caught, would you have then deemed Orton a great downfield passer? Something tell me it wouldn't have mattered in a lot of peoples evaluations.

If he would've led him to the middle of the field away from the defender then it would've been alot harder for the defender to make a play on it

2KBack
12-28-2009, 11:03 AM
If he would've led him to the middle of the field away from the defender then it would've been alot harder for the defender to make a play on it

I don't think that's true at all, considering the positions of the players that would have given Brown an opportunity to undercut the pass since I think he had inside position.

elsid13
12-28-2009, 12:44 PM
I don't think that's true at all, considering the positions of the players that would have given Brown an opportunity to undercut the pass since I think he had inside position.

The CB was in trailing position, there is no way he undercut Marshall for INT. It was bad throw. The Scheffer throw was just as bad, because he threw behind that ball where it need to be.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 12:54 PM
You're talking about the pick to Scheffler? That was a jump ball to a reciever with a severe size mismatch, why do you think they had a tight end on a corner? In that situation you are expecting your reciever to use the size advantage and make the play on the ball. 5' 10" Asante Samuel jumped up to the ball, 6'6" Scheffler just watched him do it without so much as putting up his hands.

WRONG! That was Orton fault. Orton threw up another typical inaccurate pass plain and simple. You guys have got to stop lowering the bar of expectations and endless excuses for Orton.

The two deep balls he threw to BMarsh and Scheffler were under thrown....period. You don't under throw a 6'4 WR and a 6'6 receiver you either hit them in stride or you put the ball only where your receivers can catch it. How does a 5-10 corner out jump your WR's who are over 6-4 for an interception....its b/c the QB didn't get the ball up high enough for your 6-4 plus Wr's to use their height advantage. Its unfair and unreasonable to expect your Receivers to make the miracle catches all the DAM time to bailout Ortons screw ups.

Sorry man.....ya gotta call it right. Those two deep ball incompletion's to Bmarsh and Scheff. were under thrown by Orton.

Even Orton's hail marry pass against Cincy the first game of the season was under thrown and the ball just so happened to be tipped to Stokely and he was in the right-place-at-the-right time and he took it in for an 80yd plus score with time running out.

How many circus catches has Brandon had to catch this season b/c of the inaccurate passes Orton has thrown? Kyle's passes are either off the mark, he can't hit WR's in stride, he throws the ball too low or too high, i.e. Orton is not consistent nor accurate after having been in the league for 6 years.

No more excuses for Orton now or in 2010......plz.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 01:03 PM
Okay, that one. I personally think that one was more of a great play by Brown. Kind of like that diving deflection by Champ later in the game, not as asweome, but equally effective. Marshall could have tried for that ball better as well, but Orton did put a bit too much air under it. That ball was certainly no reason to think Orton can't go deep though, the ball was on the receiver. If Brown doesn't make a diving deflection it's 6, if that exact same pass was instead caught, would you have then deemed Orton a great downfield passer? Something tell me it wouldn't have mattered in a lot of peoples evaluations.

Something tells me that Orton needs to get with a QB guru this off season and throw nothing but deep balls until he feels like ihis arm is going to fall off. Then Ice his arm down for 48 hours.....then get his ass back out there and start all over again! Orton's inability after 6 years in the league to throw an accurate deep ball is down right PATHETIC!

What good does it make to have WR's here in Denver that have Height and athleticism if Orton can't take advantage of these receivers skill set! Hell why not just provide Orton with some SMURFs who are 5-8 to 6-0!:~ohyah!: