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View Full Version : We Need A New QB, Right?


RhymesayersDU
12-27-2009, 05:23 PM
I know Orton is liked. I know that he's a good leader. I know that he has a good record. I know that he protects the ball for the most part.

But how long can we continue to try and live off slants to BMarsh and bubble screens? We need to get the ball down the field. It'd also help the running game.

Discuss.

Requiem
12-27-2009, 05:25 PM
We need a lot of new things. QB is just the tip of the iceberg.

Baba Booey
12-27-2009, 05:25 PM
I agree.

ZONA
12-27-2009, 05:32 PM
Umm, I don't think NEW is the right answer because I think we have a good QB in the making in Brandstater and he is already on the roster. A new STARTER, yes. Orton cannot be the starter next year. He cannot be signed for anything other then as a backup long term or a very very short term bigger deal. It's going to be interesting to see how this unfolds. Josh is very competitive and I don't know that he is going to stay with Orton. He will defend him to the death right now because it's the guy he has leading the team right now.

RhymesayersDU
12-27-2009, 05:37 PM
Open QB competition would be very interesting next year.

This board would implode with Brandstater hype though. It'd be epic.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 05:41 PM
I agree while at the same time thinking that Orton isn't even remotely the whole, and perhaps not largest, problem. I'd start with improvements to both lines. With a running game and better protection Orton would be better.

Vegas_Bronco
12-27-2009, 05:41 PM
Something tells me we'll be using one of our first 3 picks to make the QB situation much more solid next season. Either through trade or draft.

I hope we draft all offensive line and a pickup a few more quality FA's like last offseason.

Crushaholic
12-27-2009, 06:40 PM
I'm not sure what happened after the bye. When we started 6-0, Orton was good about spreading the ball out to different receivers. I'm wondering more and more about the playcalling...:kiddingme

ZONA
12-27-2009, 06:50 PM
I'm not sure what happened after the bye. When we started 6-0, Orton was good about spreading the ball out to different receivers. I'm wondering more and more about the playcalling...:kiddingme

There is a fine line between winning and losing sometimes. It's not like we were exactly tearing up teams during our 6-0 run, especially when you figure in that was the easiest part of the schedule and we were totally healthy. I don't think McD drew up a whole new set of plays after that. I think it was more of the schedule, injuries and player mistakes. Yeah, McD has made some mistakes also but too many people here are laying too much blame on him, as if he was the one who blew an assignment on a fake FG in Washington, or missing a block which allowed a defender to sack Orton and cause a fumble, etc.

elsid13
12-27-2009, 06:56 PM
I'm not sure what happened after the bye. When we started 6-0, Orton was good about spreading the ball out to different receivers. I'm wondering more and more about the playcalling...:kiddingme

Teams got film on the offense, figured out what Orton can do it and what he can not. Then they forced him to make those plays that he struggles with.

Ratboy
12-27-2009, 06:56 PM
Kellen Clemens is a free agent, I think. He does not have tons of experience in the pro level, but still young enough to be coached up.

Although in ability, he may be in the same boat as Kyle Orton, can he take this team and win?

ZONA
12-27-2009, 07:04 PM
The main problem with Orton is this. Unless you're a Manning or Brady type of QB where your understanding of defenses is top notch and your accuracy and timing is impeccable, you need another dimension to your game. Somebody like Big Ben, his dimension is that he is a master in the pocket and can complete passes almost at will with defenders hanging on him. He turns busted plays into big plays. Rivers, well he throws a mean deep ball with great accuracy. Orton doesn't really have anything he can do extremely well since he isn't deadly accurate like a Manning. He doesn't have great pocket movement, he doesn't throw a great deep ball (even though we don't do it much, maybe this is a reason why), he doesn't have any wheels what so ever so he cannot even rush for a 1st down if there is room to run. Defenses don't have to spy him and they don't really have to play for the long ball. They can focus on stopping the run and the short passes.

Cmac821
12-27-2009, 07:37 PM
Orton frustrates me with his lack of athleticism, why can't he run 2 yards (6 effing feet) for a first down?

Denver724
12-27-2009, 07:38 PM
I know Orton is liked. I know that he's a good leader. I know that he has a good record. I know that he protects the ball for the most part.

But how long can we continue to try and live off slants to BMarsh and bubble screens? We need to get the ball down the field. It'd also help the running game.

Discuss.

Yes, we need a QB. And yes the Broncos need to tell Orton to pack his **** and leave the day after the season is over.

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2009, 08:05 PM
Orton is not a difference maker.

The Broncos need someone who can get the ball more than 10 yards down the field to more than one receiver.

Draft Sam Bradford.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 08:10 PM
I know Orton is liked. I know that he's a good leader. I know that he has a good record. I know that he protects the ball for the most part.

But how long can we continue to try and live off slants to BMarsh and bubble screens? We need to get the ball down the field. It'd also help the running game.

Discuss.

There were at least 6 or 7 nice plays where they pushed the ball 15-20 yards down the field today. Almost all their scoring drives were the result of methodical drives with lots of the safe, boring plays of 10 yards or less. It wasn't until they tried to push the ball deep down the field that something bad (the INT) happened, so take that for what it's worth.

go_broncos
12-27-2009, 08:16 PM
We need a QB that is better than Simms, Cutler and Orton.
I am sick of having QB's that are liable..

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 08:26 PM
Open QB competition would be very interesting next year.

This board would implode with Brandstater hype though. It'd be epic.

I can hardly wait for the Brandstarter hype train to leave the station. This board gets behind the weirdest players.

ward63
12-27-2009, 08:36 PM
Orton frustrates me with his lack of athleticism, why can't he run 2 yards (6 effing feet) for a first down?

I was yelling at the bar about that....

Los Broncos
12-27-2009, 08:56 PM
We need one at some point but the o-line needs fixing.

We are getting killed, players are just getting ran over and man handled up front.

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 09:00 PM
I know Orton is liked. I know that he's a good leader. I know that he has a good record. I know that he protects the ball for the most part.

But how long can we continue to try and live off slants to BMarsh and bubble screens? We need to get the ball down the field. It'd also help the running game.

Discuss.

Word!

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 09:05 PM
The main problem with Orton is this. Unless you're a Manning or Brady type of QB where your understanding of defenses is top notch and your accuracy and timing is impeccable, you need another dimension to your game. Somebody like Big Ben, his dimension is that he is a master in the pocket and can complete passes almost at will with defenders hanging on him. He turns busted plays into big plays. Rivers, well he throws a mean deep ball with great accuracy. Orton doesn't really have anything he can do extremely well since he isn't deadly accurate like a Manning. He doesn't have great pocket movement, he doesn't throw a great deep ball (even though we don't do it much, maybe this is a reason why), he doesn't have any wheels what so ever so he cannot even rush for a 1st down if there is room to run. Defenses don't have to spy him and they don't really have to play for the long ball. They can focus on stopping the run and the short passes.

Tell me something I don't know or opposing defenses don't know. I've been behind him all year till the last few games. He does protect the ball but I've seen many times where he throws the ball to someone either behind him or into coverage when he has someone else wide open. He is bad at avoiding the sack and his pocket presence sucks. He should be at the point right now where he should be progressing in this offense(considering that the playcalling and OL sucks)better than what he has. I'm ready to move on.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 09:06 PM
Let me get this straight:

We just scored 27 pts with no run game, terrible Oline play, nothing out of Marshall, terrible coaching and a liability at QB, against a defense that gives up 20 pts per game on average. How can all of the above be true? It can't.

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 09:10 PM
Let me get this straight:

We just scored 27 pts with no run game, terrible Oline play, nothing out of Marshall, terrible coaching and a liability at QB, against a defense that gives up 20 pts per game on average. How can all of the above be true? It can't.

We should have won given our field position in the second half. Even thought we did score we should have gotten many more points instead of the 3 and outs. There is enough blame to go around but the most goes to the offense.

Beantown Bronco
12-27-2009, 09:15 PM
We should have won given our field position in the second half. Even thought we did score we should have gotten many more points instead of the 3 and outs. There is enough blame to go around but the most goes to the offense.

No way. Some blame? Sure. But no way should the defense get less blame than the offense when they gave up 30 pts (probably 34 if Philly actually pressed the issue on the last drive), 400+ yards of Philly offense, etc.

orange 4 life
12-27-2009, 09:36 PM
"We Need A New QB, Right?"

No. Next thread.

2KBack
12-27-2009, 09:39 PM
We should have won given our field position in the second half. Even thought we did score we should have gotten many more points instead of the 3 and outs. There is enough blame to go around but the most goes to the offense.

oh that is bull****. That would be like blaming Philly's offense for the loss if Denver pulled it out, which they were a crappy punter and one 26 yard scramble from doing.

Circle Orange
12-27-2009, 09:40 PM
Very frustrating loss, especially after the team was down early and fought back. I hate to say this, but Orton is Orton...you'll get good mid range plays, but no explosive plays. His downfield accuracy is still erratic as ever. I dunno if this result is encouraging or not. THe only ray of light is that it's an out of conference loss.

2KBack
12-27-2009, 09:44 PM
Very frustrating loss, especially after the team was down early and fought back. I hate to say this, but Orton is Orton...you'll get good mid range plays, but no explosive plays. His downfield accuracy is still erratic as ever. I dunno if this result is encouraging or not. THe only ray of light is that it's an out of conference loss.

I'd say the ray of light was that Denver scored 20 points in one half against a very good defense.

The tale of two teams thing is the problem, and it's called growing pains. The offense tends to play about 30 minutes of solid/good football, the defense plays about 30 minutes of really good D. The other 30 minutes on both sides of the ball are very painful. What's nice is that is a good start in actuality. Better to start from inconsistant, that plain old ****ty. Consistancy comes with familiarity and repetition, something that may take more than one season to attain.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 09:47 PM
I'd say the ray of light was that Denver scored 20 points in one half against a very good defense.

The tale of two teams thing is the problem, and it's called growing pains. The offense tends to play about 30 minutes of solid/good football, the defense plays about 30 minutes of really good D. The other 30 minutes on both sides of the ball are very painful. What's nice is that is a good start in actuality. Better to start from inconsistant, that plain old ****ty. Consistancy comes with familiarity and repetition, something that may take more than one season to attain.

This is my biggest criticism. We don't have a 60 minute team. The new age Broncos seem to come out flat, and don't kick it in until the game starts to look like it could get out of hand - then something clicks and they start making things happen. Unfortunately, it sometimes happens too little, too late.

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 09:49 PM
I'd say the ray of light was that Denver scored 20 points in one half against a very good defense.

The tale of two teams thing is the problem, and it's called growing pains. The offense tends to play about 30 minutes of solid/good football, the defense plays about 30 minutes of really good D. The other 30 minutes on both sides of the ball are very painful. What's nice is that is a good start in actuality. Better to start from inconsistant, that plain old ****ty. Consistancy comes with familiarity and repetition, something that may take more than one season to attain.

Forget the ray of lights. Its been shining for years w/ no results. I wan't wins and consistent football. Mediocrity sucks.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 09:50 PM
For all the criticism of Orton, he did manage 3 TDs tonight.

go_broncos
12-27-2009, 09:53 PM
we need a new QB..With orton we can go 8-8,9-7 or at most 10-6.
He just manages the game. We need a QB that makes plays like Rogers, Flaco etc

broncolife
12-27-2009, 09:53 PM
For all the criticism of Orton, he did manage 3 TDs tonight.

yep and on 2 of those our O started and the Phi 16 and 25

bpc
12-27-2009, 10:40 PM
Kellen Clemens is a free agent, I think. He does not have tons of experience in the pro level, but still young enough to be coached up.

Although in ability, he may be in the same boat as Kyle Orton, can he take this team and win?

Great take. I'd bring Orton back if it is a reasonable contract. I would also draft QB high. Logically we would foray into the FA market and try to pick up a guy with some starting experience and upside to compete with Orton.

Jason Campbell fits that bill... Kellen Clemens fits that bill. I'd be fine with either as they have a pulse, unlike Chris Simms.

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 10:47 PM
I want a new coach and new QB .. Cowher...

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 10:50 PM
oh and a New GM...

skmoser
12-27-2009, 10:51 PM
we need a qb that can throw the ball more than 10 yards down field. The play calling has sucked hard, but it is masking the inabilities of orton. McD has to call all these screens and quick outs cause orton cant do anything. The defenses we play now know that and stack the box regardless of pass or run cause they know they can stuff it either way. This ends our run game from the start. The play action doesnt even matter. How many times do we run a play action on orton dumps it to a TE 4 yards down field? Orton is a horrible qb and is messing up the entire offense. His stats really disguise how inept he is at playing his position

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 10:51 PM
just what has NE done since they were busted cheating ?

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 10:53 PM
I want a steelers Prodigy ..

~Crash~
12-27-2009, 10:55 PM
The patsiee suck I hate all that is them including there mini me they shipped this way .

tsiguy96
12-27-2009, 10:58 PM
i hope we re-sign orton, he played pretty well this year, not great not horrible. i hope that brandstater pushes him in TC as well, and i hope simms gets cut. possibly draft a rookie but sit him for a year.

BroncoMan4ever
12-27-2009, 11:10 PM
people need to quit sucking Brandstaters dick. the guy has as much chance of becoming our QBOTF as i do of waking up tomorrow receiving a hummer from Marissa Miller.

strafen
12-27-2009, 11:12 PM
I was advocating for Brandstater to be our starter this season.
We needed to break him in like this season, and not trying to start next season over with yet a new QB.
Now, could we have had a 6-0 start with TB?
I don't know. Perhaps we couldn't.
Perhaps we couldn't have a 6-0 start but an overall record better than 8-7?
I think so. But again, nobody could say it with certainty.

Now, think about this, if we fail to make the play-offs, how many of you would be agreeing with me right now?
See my point?
Yes, I want the Broncos to make the play-offs, but I also wanted to find out if TB is the QB we need going forward, and not to have to wait yet another year to find out.
This is a position we needed to be more aggressive in getting a head start this year.
The risk was worth it. I knew what we've had in Orton, and the results are not surprising me a bit.

Next year, if we start again with Orton, it will take a few years for the Broncos to be back to respectability in the NFL.
McDaniels wanted to win now. Most of us wanted to as well, but in reality, McDaniels could've had a honeymoon period to get this team where we wanted it to be. He didn't have to do it all in one year.
He raised the bar too high, and next year the expectation will be there and perhaps higher, the pressure on him to win will be greater.

He learned a valuable lesson. He got rid of a promising punter, and replaced him with a re-thread old one. He made some FA acquisitions that made our team older. Yes, we needed some leadership infusion, some experience, and what have you, but this would've been good if we would've been a better team than we're now regardless or whether we make the play-offs or not.

A young hotshot 33 years old first time headcoach in the NFL got a taste of humility.
It's a marathon and not a sprint.
You can't build a winning team in one year without having prior experience in building teams. You cannot follow someone else's recipe and trying to use it as your own.
You can't assemble a winning team with veteran players; not for the long run anyway...

I liked McDaniels. I was pulling for him to be our head coach from the pool of candidates we had to choose from, but the guy scares me.
His stubborness, ego and impatience are disturbing traits of his personality.

Not having a real GM with real GM duties could be his undoing.
He needs somebody to advise him and guide him thru his journey as a head coach in the NFL...

Step back Mcdaniels and think what approachh suits you the best. Cut that Belicheck umbilical cord now!

strafen
12-27-2009, 11:14 PM
people need to quit sucking Brandstaters dick. the guy has as much chance of becoming our QBOTF as i do of waking up tomorrow receiving a hummer from Marissa Miller.


Is that the best you've got to make an intelligent argument, moron?!

BroncoMan4ever
12-27-2009, 11:15 PM
For all the criticism of Orton, he did manage 3 TDs tonight.

damn right. so many are bringing up that he lacks tremedous athletic ability, but had we still had our athletic freak of a QB from last season for this game, we lose this game with a score more in the range of 44-10.

we would have fallen behind and Cutler would have tossed 2-3 INTs and ****ed the defense over. there is no chance we even come close to winning this game without Orton.

Broncos4tw
12-28-2009, 12:11 AM
Our TDs were on very short fields folks. This was not the result of a resurgent Orton. Name one amazing throw of his during our comeback. C'mon.. just one. No? Yea.. no.

He threw safe passes, and a TON of screens. YAC doesn't mean Orton is a franchise QB. Imo, he threw a crapton of bad passes. Too fast, behind the receivers, that sort of thing. He had a couple I was moderately pleased with, and none made me stand up in suprise and spill my beer.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 01:23 AM
Forget the ray of lights. Its been shining for years w/ no results. I wan't wins and consistent football. Mediocrity sucks.

damn dude, gotta have patience. I think most of us knew it with all the changes there were going to be a few growing pains.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 01:29 AM
Our TDs were on very short fields folks. This was not the result of a resurgent Orton. Name one amazing throw of his during our comeback. C'mon.. just one. No? Yea.. no.

He threw safe passes, and a TON of screens. YAC doesn't mean Orton is a franchise QB. Imo, he threw a crapton of bad passes. Too fast, behind the receivers, that sort of thing. He had a couple I was moderately pleased with, and none made me stand up in suprise and spill my beer.

That's because you and your like don't notice the good passes, you focus on the incompletions. BTW, there were a bunch of great throws during the comeback, a couple strikes to Gaffney and Loyd on 3rd down come to mind. The dropped TD to Scheff was on the money too.

It's funny, all QB's miss passes, throw low or behind sometimes, but Orton gets an exrodinary amount of flack for it. When McNabb went 2 for 10 at one stretch during the second half, was anyone here thinking, wow what a ****ty QB?

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 07:56 AM
I know Orton is liked. I know that he's a good leader. I know that he has a good record. I know that he protects the ball for the most part.

But how long can we continue to try and live off slants to BMarsh and bubble screens? We need to get the ball down the field. It'd also help the running game.

Discuss.

Orton is not near as bad or limited as some people make him out to be. He's not a show-stopper like some people try to make him out to be. I realize he doesn't do some things as well as the all-time greats, but he's a pretty good NFL starter.

Career Stats more
Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2009 Denver Broncos 15 14 304 485 62.7 3,371 7.0 20 9 27 156 89.3 22 55 2.5 0 4 2
2008 Chicago Bears 15 15 272 465 58.5 2,972 6.4 18 12 27 160 79.6 24 49 2.0 3 6 5


38 TD's/21 INT's the past two years. That's pretty good.

Rabb
12-28-2009, 08:01 AM
how can you blame the bubble screens and slants on Orton?

I am not saying he is the guy, but seriously...he is not calling this crap

my God you people, I will be the first to admit that he could have run for that 3rd and 2 but Orton was not our problem yesterday

oubronco
12-28-2009, 08:01 AM
I know Orton is liked. I know that he's a good leader. I know that he has a good record. I know that he protects the ball for the most part.

But how long can we continue to try and live off slants to BMarsh and bubble screens? We need to get the ball down the field. It'd also help the running game.

Discuss.

people will say it's the New England offense but in it's really not. They throw the ball in the 10-15 yd range alot more than McD does which opens up the running lanes and the screens

jhns
12-28-2009, 08:09 AM
but he's a pretty good NFL starter.


Every offense he has ever led has been bad. He does not take over games. He does not elevate the play of those around him. He makes their jobs harder. Why do you think every offensive player we have has regressed from last year other than Marshall? Why do you think the coach calls 30 screens and slants a game? This is not the type of offense he called in New England.

Yes, we need a new QB if this team is ever going to be one of the elite teams. I do not understand this crazy amount of love he is getting here. As I have been saying, at least the Cutler drama took away Elways shaddow in Denver. Bronco fans have never been so in love with such bad QB play. We are horrible in every impotant offensive category. 3rd down, red zone, points, and about anything else you can think of. Even the turnovers that were avoided to start the year have been showing up now.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 08:18 AM
Why do you think every offensive player we have has regressed from last year other than Marshall?

I love how you keep trying to bring this up, like 10 guys from last year's offense are still on this team. Three guys have regressed: Stokley, Royal and Scheffler. And I'm willing to bet that even if Cutler (or any other QB) was here this year, that at least two of those three (if not all 3) would've seen their numbers decrease significantly regardless. That's what happens when you bring in a guy like Gaffney. He is taking some catches away, as are age (Stokley) and injury/sophomore slump (Royal).

go_broncos
12-28-2009, 08:24 AM
We need a new QB(like Rogers, Flacco, Rivers).
With Orton, our team will be average(9-7,8-8,10-6).

If Orton is the QB next year, we may reach playoff's..But, we can't win playoff games.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 08:27 AM
We need a new QB(like Rogers, Flacco, Rivers).
With Orton, our team will be average(9-7,8-8,10-6).

Name the available QB (either through FA or the draft) that is a sure-fire talent like one of those three. I'll be waiting.

If Orton is the QB next year, we may reach playoff's..But, we can't win playoff games.

Why? Cause you say so?

He has a winning record against the teams in this year's playoffs.

jhns
12-28-2009, 08:33 AM
I love how you keep trying to bring this up, like 10 guys from last year's offense are still on this team. Three guys have regressed: Stokley, Royal and Scheffler. And I'm willing to bet that even if Cutler (or any other QB) was here this year, that at least two of those three (if not all 3) would've seen their numbers decrease significantly regardless. That's what happens when you bring in a guy like Gaffney. He is taking some catches away, as are age (Stokley) and injury/sophomore slump (Royal).

Yeah right. We have tons from last year and all of them have regressed other than Marshall. Clady, Weigman, Kuper, Hillis, Stokley, Royal, Graham and Sheffler have all seen big dropoffs. That is just off the top of my head. None of them are near as good as they were. It is funny that you think they all have some individual excuses. It can all be explained by the system and limited QB. These guys all didn't hit a wall with youth and age at the same time.

Also, before you even start, the o-linemen have been getting beat in pass blocking a lot more. They are losing one on one battles that they dominated last year. The switch from zone blocking does not mess with the pass blocking. A QB that has no idea how to work a pocket is the problem.

gtown
12-28-2009, 08:40 AM
Well its settled then. We need a new "franchise" QB. Let me just hop in the car, drive down to Wal-Mart and buy one for us.

Fact of the matter is, Orton has played pretty well considering a number of factors. He completed nearly 75% of his passes yesterday with 3 TDs and a pick. What more do you want? A reacharound? When Cutler was here, that kind of day would be roundly celebrated.

Any idiot can heap the blame for losses on the QB, but football is a team sport. Did Orton force the Oline to hold during key parts of the game? No. Did he allow penetration on basically every running play whether between the tackles or off tackle? No. Did he force Stokely to touch the ref? No. Did he allow 30 points to a very good Eagles offense? No.

People need to wake up and see that this guy is part of the solution right now. If a franchise signal caller is available in FA or at our spot in the draft, I have no doubt that McD will pick him up if he thinks he will bring this club to the next level. But if that doesn't happen, Orton is our best option.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 08:41 AM
jhns:

This is a different OLine. New guard and new right tackle. So your comparisons have to take into account that the chemistry hasn't been there. This has nothing to do with the system or Orton. It's not their fault that Harris got hurt and Hamilton has been regressing for years.

Clady? Yup, it's clear he's regressed. You can blame some of that on Orton's lack of mobility, but not all. He's getting beat right off the line, which didn't happen last year. Sophomore slump perhaps? Weigmann is obviously not taking to the new system for whatever reason. Maybe he's just happy that he got that last payday that he cried about all offseason and he's mailing it in a little. Who knows?

go_broncos
12-28-2009, 08:51 AM
Orton can't handle the pressure..When i look at other QB's, they complete the pass when the defenders are hitting him.
In case of Orton, he ducks and gets sacked or just throws the incomplete pass.

We need to cut simms after this season. He is horrible..Not sure, why we are paying that much for a backup QB.

We can't just say that Orton is the QB next year.We need to try to get a QB in the earlier rounds(if Tom is not the answer).

Unfortunately, we are stuck with Orton if Tom is not developing.
If he starts, i will not have any expectations as we might be 8-8 or 9-7 AGAIN.

Pony Boy
12-28-2009, 09:32 AM
Name the available QB (either through FA or the draft) that is a sure-fire talent like one of those three. I'll be waiting.

I for one think Bradford is a sure-fire talent and he should be there when we draft. Yes the shoulder is a question but that will be answered at the combine and no reason to think the surgery wasn't a success. The kid is still growing and has shown he can make all the big-time NFL throws.

I remember when Brees was written off because of his shoulder injury and we know the rest of that story.

Traveler
12-28-2009, 09:40 AM
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Our QBOTF is not currently on this team. No slight to Orton since he's playing with limited support from the OL.

Having said that, we need a QB that can quickly read defenses, has mobility, is accurate, makes the players around him better, threatens a defense with the long ball, and can single-handedly take over a game himself.

No such QB currently on this team fits this description.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 09:46 AM
I for one think Bradford is a sure-fire talent and he should be there when we draft.

I guess it depends on where our pick ends up falling, but I'd be shocked if he fell to the Broncos. A bunch of teams currently slated to pick between 5-11 could use him and I could easily see a team like the Seahawks or Bills grabbing him ahead of us.

lostknight
12-28-2009, 09:46 AM
I don't think the problem is with Orton. Bear in mind, I started the year as one of his biggest critics. I think the problem that the Offense had was the inability to find a rythem all season long. That could be due to the QB, but it also could be due to the offensive play calling.

More then a new QB, I think we need a new offensive playcaller.

RhymesayersDU
12-28-2009, 09:57 AM
I am not saying he is the guy, but seriously...he is not calling this crap

Which proves my point. McD obviously doesn't trust Orton just like Shanny didn't trust Jake.

Orton completed 27 passes yesterday for less than 200 yards. We can't live like that.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 09:59 AM
Teams got film on the offense, figured out what Orton can do it and what he can not. Then they forced him to make those plays that he struggles with.

This is true. When the Broncs have had success offensively is when Orton has made the plays he generally has problems with, i.e., delivering the long ball on time and sliding around to buy a little time.

However, that doesn't mean Orton can't improve in the areas he's struggling with right now. I think Orton still has some upside, he's had his moments and he's still a young guy.

Orton is just a little bit short of being real good right now. With some more coaching he can possibly get above the plateau. He has good physical skills, good leadership skills. I see people say he's slow, brick feet, but that's not true.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 10:01 AM
Which proves my point. McD obviously doesn't trust Orton just like Shanny didn't trust Jake.

Orton completed 27 passes yesterday for less than 200 yards. We can't live like that.

Trust had nothing to do with yesterday's play calls. It had everything to do with the fact that Philly blitzes about 75% of the time, so the gameplan obviously called for a heavy dose of quick hitter plays that are designed solely to exploit heavy blitz schemes.

Philly, however, didn't blitz all that much (they didn't have to with the way the OLine was "playing") so the quick hitters were stopped after minimal YAC.

Pony Boy
12-28-2009, 10:02 AM
I don't think the problem is with Orton. Bear in mind, I started the year as one of his biggest critics. I think the problem that the Offense had was the inability to find a rythem all season long. That could be due to the QB, but it also could be due to the offensive play calling.

More then a new QB, I think we need a new offensive playcaller.

I'm going to pretented you really didn't say that .........:oyvey:

DBroncos4life
12-28-2009, 10:02 AM
I love how you keep trying to bring this up, like 10 guys from last year's offense are still on this team. Three guys have regressed: Stokley, Royal and Scheffler. And I'm willing to bet that even if Cutler (or any other QB) was here this year, that at least two of those three (if not all 3) would've seen their numbers decrease significantly regardless. That's what happens when you bring in a guy like Gaffney. He is taking some catches away, as are age (Stokley) and injury/sophomore slump (Royal).

You don't think Clady, Hamilton, Weigman, and Kuper have regressed then?

Dukes
12-28-2009, 10:04 AM
We need a QB that is better than Simms, Cutler and Orton.
I am sick of having QB's that are liable..

Along with 25 other teams in the NFL

Rabb
12-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Which proves my point. McD obviously doesn't trust Orton just like Shanny didn't trust Jake.

Orton completed 27 passes yesterday for less than 200 yards. We can't live like that.

I honestly don't think that is why he is calling the plays he calls...my personal opinion is that this all starts with McD (and I am a supporter)

I feel like McD is not calling the game like an aggressive OC, I think he is calling it like a HC that is looking at all sides and that is a mistake

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 10:09 AM
You don't think Clady, Hamilton, Weigman, and Kuper have regressed then?

Did you miss my follow up post about this? It's further up this page.

Clady? Yes. It happens. He had nowhere to go but down after his ridiculous season last year. Guys have film on him and he seems to be having a bit of a sophomore slump. Again, it happens. Does he look a little worse because Orton isn't as mobile as Cutler? Yes. But there are several times that he's just simply getting beat off the ball. Mobility at QB or not, he's getting beat more. Period.

Hamilton? He's been regressing for the last few years regardless of QB.

Weigman? See what I wrote above. His age and lack of motivation and not to mention size are all bad fits right now.

Kuper? He looks fine for the most part. He has had a few struggles, but he has been playing with a significant injury for most of the season.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 10:11 AM
You don't think Clady, Hamilton, Weigman, and Kuper have regressed then?

Clady hasn't regressed, he is dealing with guys learning how to attack him. That happenes when you aren't a rookie anymore. Hamilton has had problems for years, and tiny Weigman is too old and too small now to make up for the defeciencies to his left. As for Kuper, he has struggled because he doesn't trust Polumbus (neither do I). The Offensive line is a unit, when you lose a major talent it effects the guys around him. Kuper is facing more heat without Ryan Harris next to him.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 10:14 AM
Kellen Clemens is a free agent, I think. He does not have tons of experience in the pro level, but still young enough to be coached up.

Although in ability, he may be in the same boat as Kyle Orton, can he take this team and win?

Please, Jebus . . . . that's just plain goofy.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 10:17 AM
This is true. When the Broncs have had success offensively is when Orton has made the plays he generally has problems with, i.e., delivering the long ball on time and sliding around to buy a little time.

However, that doesn't mean Orton can't improve in the areas he's struggling with right now. I think Orton still has some upside, he's had his moments and he's still a young guy.

Orton is just a little bit short of being real good right now. With some more coaching he can possibly get above the plateau. He has good physical skills, good leadership skills. I see people say he's slow, brick feet, but that's not true.

I think some people will be very surprised at how much can improve next season as well (thought I think he's played pretty damn well). The decisions will be 1-2 seconds faster next season, familiarity with the protection should add a touch of time in the pocket. The QB and recievers will have better situational awareness, and trust. We see flashes of this all the time, it's just been inconsistant, and understandably so.

DBroncos4life
12-28-2009, 10:17 AM
Did you miss my follow up post about this? It's further up this page.

Clady? Yes. It happens. He had nowhere to go but down after his ridiculous season last year. Guys have film on him and he seems to be having a bit of a sophomore slump. Again, it happens. Does he look a little worse because Orton isn't as mobile as Cutler? Yes. But there are several times that he's just simply getting beat off the ball. Mobility at QB or not, he's getting beat more. Period.

Hamilton? He's been regressing for the last few years regardless of QB.

Weigman? See what I wrote above. His age and lack of motivation and not to mention size are all bad fits right now.

Kuper? He looks fine for the most part. He has had a few struggles, but he has been playing with a significant injury for most of the season.

Well then you also believe that players other then Royal, Sheff, and Stokes have regressed.

oubronco
12-28-2009, 10:22 AM
Which proves my point. McD obviously doesn't trust Orton just like Shanny didn't trust Jake.

Orton completed 27 passes yesterday for less than 200 yards. We can't live like that.

an average of 7 yds a pass

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 10:24 AM
Well then you also believe that players other then Royal, Sheff, and Stokes have regressed.

Yes, but I thought this was a separate discussion. In a separate thread, I was going back and forth with jhns about just the skill position guys. He kept bringing up the WRs and TEs alone in the analysis. I thought that was what was happening here, which is why I limited my initial response to just those individuals. The debate has now clearly changed.

Requiem
12-28-2009, 10:25 AM
Orton has thrown for less than 250 yards in 11 games this season. Pretty bad.

DBroncos4life
12-28-2009, 10:26 AM
Yes, but I thought this was a separate discussion. In a separate thread, I was going back and forth with jhns about just the skill position guys. He kept bringing up the WRs and TEs alone in the analysis. I thought that was what was happening here, which is why I limited my initial response to just those individuals. The debate has now clearly changed.

It is the mane :)

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 10:33 AM
The main problem with Orton is this. Unless you're a Manning or Brady type of QB where your understanding of defenses is top notch and your accuracy and timing is impeccable, you need another dimension to your game. Somebody like Big Ben, his dimension is that he is a master in the pocket and can complete passes almost at will with defenders hanging on him. He turns busted plays into big plays. Rivers, well he throws a mean deep ball with great accuracy. Orton doesn't really have anything he can do extremely well since he isn't deadly accurate like a Manning. He doesn't have great pocket movement, he doesn't throw a great deep ball (even though we don't do it much, maybe this is a reason why), he doesn't have any wheels what so ever so he cannot even rush for a 1st down if there is room to run. Defenses don't have to spy him and they don't really have to play for the long ball. They can focus on stopping the run and the short passes.

Absolutely Orton has to add a dimension to his game.

The question is - can he? With more coaching - can he add a dimension? Can he even make some incremental improvements?

I think it's possible. He's still a young guy. I disagree that Orton "has no wheels". He's actually fairly quick, he just doesn't use the wheels. Something he can be coached up to do to as a dimension to his game. Orton isn't some wobbly-legged knock-kneed slowcoach, he just doesn't use his wheels to his advantage. Dude could have got a lot of first downs this year but he still has problems deciding what he wants to do with the ball.

I still think Orton has some upside. He delivers the ball too late constantly, that's a problem, lot of big plays went undone because of that, but that can be coached out. Orton doesn't use his legs to get positive yards, that can be coached out.

The question is - can Orton still be coached up some? I'll say he can.

Rabb
12-28-2009, 10:41 AM
Orton has thrown for less than 250 yards in 11 games this season. Pretty bad.

yes horrible

Cincy - 243, 1 TD 0 Int - Win
Faid - 157, 1 TD 0 Int - Win
Dallas - 243, 2 TD, 0 Int - Win
Chuggers - 229, 2 TD, 0 Int - Win
Baltimore - 152, 0 TD 0 Int - Loss
Pittsburgh - 221, 0 TD 3 Int - Loss
Washington* - 193, 2 TD 0 Int - Loss
Chuggers - 171, 0 TD 1 Int - Loss
Giants - 245 yards, 1 TD 1 Int - Win
Chefs - 180, 2 TD 1 Int - Win
Eagles - 189, 3 TD 1 Int - Loss

so the team is 6-5 when he is under 250, and I would argue that the 2nd San Diego Game and the Washington games had nothing to do with him...I actually can only think of pinning 2 of those losses (Pitt and Baltimore) on him in any way

14 TDs and 7 picks over that stretch also

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why "under 250" is even a bad thing. If a QB averages 250 yds each week, that's 4,000 for the season. Only 10 QBs are going to hit that mark this season.

Is every QB that throws for less than 4,000 yds somehow sucky?

Even if you lower it to 200 yds per week, that's 3,200 yards for the season. About half the QBs in the league aren't going to hit that mark this season.

What a weird criteria for judging a guy.....even if you are a "stats guy".

2KBack
12-28-2009, 10:58 AM
Orton has thrown for less than 250 yards in 11 games this season. Pretty bad.

Statements like this really make me wonder what sort of perspective people have of the NFL and it's players. Orton is averaging 225 passing yards per game, here's some perspective on those numbers...

Joe Montana- 211.2 yards per game career
Aikman- 199.6 career, 229.5 highest season
Elway- in 1997 227.2, 1998 215.8
Brady- 189.5 yards (1st superbowl), 230.8 (2nd), 256.9 (3rd)

That's 12 championships right there all QB's that more oftne than not threw for less than 250 yards per game. Brady finally did it in his 6th season. Montana did it a whole 3 times in his career, Elway twice, and Aikman never.

Let's make up another stat to justify Orton hate, because 250 yards games is a silly one.

rmsanger
12-28-2009, 11:06 AM
QB is not our problem, it's our inability to run the ball or sustain drives/possession due to penalties and poor 3rd down performance.

Orton isn't great but he's no turnover machine. The offense is still caught in limbo searching for an identity with the change in HC. McD brought in a new playbook but the O line and most skill players are from Shanny's system. Guys like Royal, Scheff, and Hillis become obsolete going forward. I would expect they ask Moreno to gain a few pounds to make him a stronger runner. I would expect they bring in maybe 2 new OGs and a new Center. I would expect they make a run for another possession WR (Boldin in available). I would expect a significant trade from our D side of the ball (Bailey, D Williams) in place of more youth/depth on the D side.

RhymesayersDU
12-28-2009, 11:07 AM
Yeah randomly picking 250 seems odd to me.

What concerns me, particulay yesterday, is the amount of passes completed to gain that yardage. I don't care if he throws for 100 yards or 400. But completing 27 passes for 189 yards isn't good, IMO.

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:10 AM
Yes, but I thought this was a separate discussion. In a separate thread, I was going back and forth with jhns about just the skill position guys. He kept bringing up the WRs and TEs alone in the analysis. I thought that was what was happening here, which is why I limited my initial response to just those individuals. The debate has now clearly changed.

That last debate also included the o-line. Nothing I am saying is any different from what I said last week. I find it funny that you have an individual excuse for everyone falling off other than Marshall. You are pretty much arguing that we have no coaching. There is no way every player on this offense hit some random different walls all at the same time. I like how you defend this like it is better that everyone other than Orton is just bad or regressing.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Yeah randomly picking 250 seems odd to me.

What concerns me, particulay yesterday, is the amount of passes completed to gain that yardage. I don't care if he throws for 100 yards or 400. But completing 27 passes for 189 yards isn't good, IMO.

Failed screen passes will do that. Yesterday was a great example of sticking to a failed gameplan. Orton had success when he threw downfield, but then they'd call more screen passes. All those negative pass plays take their toll. I kept waiting for a fake screen, seeing as how Philly was all over them, but it never happened.

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:14 AM
Yeah randomly picking 250 seems odd to me.

What concerns me, particulay yesterday, is the amount of passes completed to gain that yardage. I don't care if he throws for 100 yards or 400. But completing 27 passes for 189 yards isn't good, IMO.

I don't get how people can watch the games and not see that even McDaniels doesn't trust Orton. These game plans are far more simplified than the ones Plummer used to get from Shanahan.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 11:16 AM
I find it funny that you have an individual excuse for everyone falling off other than Marshall.

OK. Prove me (and the others who have also provided reasons outside of Orton) wrong. These are not excuses. They are legit explanations for why certain players don't look as good this year as they did last.

You are pretty much arguing that we have no coaching.

Not even close. What do age and injury (Hamilton, Weigmann, and Harris) have to do with coaching? You are just lost.

There is no way every player on this offense hit some random different walls all at the same time.

There's a little something called learning a new system that tends to factor in as well. If there was no such thing as "growing pains" then we wouldn't have an actual term for it.

I like how you defend this like it is better that everyone other than Orton is just bad or regressing.

Ummmm, ok. Not sure where I came close to saying that, but enjoy.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 11:17 AM
I don't get how people can watch the games and not see that even McDaniels doesn't trust Orton. These game plans are far more simplified than the ones Plummer used to get from Shanahan.

That's seriously flawed logic right there. Short passing game does not equal simplified passing game.

RhymesayersDU
12-28-2009, 11:21 AM
I don't get how people can watch the games and not see that even McDaniels doesn't trust Orton. These game plans are far more simplified than the ones Plummer used to get from Shanahan.

I tend to believe this as well. I don't think McD trusts Orton. I mean, I don't want it to seem like I want us to chuck the ball 50 yards down field every play, because I certainly do not... But we need better balance in the passing game.

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:24 AM
I get it bean. You like bad QBs and have to defend them to the death. Your excuses and explanations make me laugh more than anything. I don't get the love for Orton other than it proves you guys really are some jilted lovers now that Cutler is gone. Crap QBs that seem like nice guys are now good enough for you just because they won't say mean things....

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 11:29 AM
I can't debate the points you make with anything tangible, so I'll sit here and laugh nervously to myself

well hot damn, why didn't you just say so before?

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:31 AM
That's seriously flawed logic right there. Short passing game does not equal simplified passing game.

I never said one thing about the short passing game. I said watch the games and you can see it. You obviously don't watch the games and your arguments are what make this fact obvious. Start watching them and maybe I will argue with you about this stuff again at another time. Your responses here are so rediculous that I'm pretty sure I won't be responding to your lame defense of mediocrity again.

skmoser
12-28-2009, 11:31 AM
ryan mallett ryan mallett ryan mallett

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:38 AM
QBs that don't know how to work a pocket, have no accuracy beyond 5 yards, suck on 3rd down, suck on fourth down, suck in the red zone, and generally lead offenses ranked in the 20s are exactly what this team needs to win SBs!

Well, why didn't you say that in the first place...

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 11:39 AM
I never said one thing about the short passing game. I said watch the games and you can see it. You obviously don't watch the games and that is pretty obvious by your arguments. Start watching them and maybe I will argue with you about this stuff again at another time. Your responses here are so rediculous that I'm pretty sure I won't be responding to your lame defense of mediocrity again.

Yup, I don't watch the games. I'm just guessing what's happening when I post in the game threads as the games are happening.

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:43 AM
Yup, I don't watch the games. I'm just guessing what's happening when I post in the game threads as the games are happening.

Watching a game thread isn't even close to watching the game.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 11:45 AM
Watching a game thread isn't even close to watching the game.

Where did I say I was watching a game thread?

jhns
12-28-2009, 11:49 AM
Where did I say I was watching a game thread?

What does that have to do with anything?

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 11:57 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why "under 250" is even a bad thing. If a QB averages 250 yds each week, that's 4,000 for the season. Only 10 QBs are going to hit that mark this season.

Is every QB that throws for less than 4,000 yds somehow sucky?

Even if you lower it to 200 yds per week, that's 3,200 yards for the season. About half the QBs in the league aren't going to hit that mark this season.

What a weird criteria for judging a guy.....even if you are a "stats guy".

Well, just trying to be a jerk, something I'm good at, Orton often has a hard time making key drive-sustaining passes. Sometimes he does make them, sometimes he doesn't. Dude makes some beautiful passes sometimes, sometimes he's shaky.

But he's still a young guy and with some coaching I like his possibilities. It's not like there's a ton of prospects out there that are an improvement. If Orton works hard . . . . .

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 12:01 PM
What does that have to do with anything?

I was DIRECTLY quoting you.

Do you have yourself on ignore? (Not that I'd blame you)

Watching a game thread isn't even close to watching the game.

jhns
12-28-2009, 12:18 PM
I was DIRECTLY quoting you.

Do you have yourself on ignore? (Not that I'd blame you)

I know what I typed. My response is the same.

bronco610
12-28-2009, 12:39 PM
i was directly quoting you.

Do you have yourself on ignore? (not that i'd blame you)

Hilarious!

KevinJames
12-28-2009, 12:59 PM
I think we need to upgrade the QB positions but we have no better options than Orton via Free Agency although Troy Smith does intrigue me but I don't know if that would be a good move and it be dumb to draft a rookie QB and start him especially when there really isn't a hit or miss QB in the draft they all have question marks.

I would be in favor of giving Orton a 2 or 3 year deal see how he does in his second year, observe Brandstater in training camp see how hes coming a long.

ultimately I think we will have Orton as our starter next year but we def need to bring in a vet to back him up via Free Agency cause Chris Simms is trash I know Chris Redman is a free agent he didn't seem to do too bad as a backup in Atlanta.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 01:20 PM
Well, just trying to be a jerk, something I'm good at, Orton often has a hard time making key drive-sustaining passes. Sometimes he does make them, sometimes he doesn't. Dude makes some beautiful passes sometimes, sometimes he's shaky.

But he's still a young guy and with some coaching I like his possibilities. It's not like there's a ton of prospects out there that are an improvement. If Orton works hard . . . . .

Oddly enough, I feel differently. I've been more confidant at 3rd and 5 this season, where they'll allow Orton to throw, than 3rd and short. Sadly those are also the down and distances where he gets the most pass rush heat, but if the rush doesn't get to him, he is good at finding the open man. No one will make every read and pass, but Orton makes far more than he misses in my opinion.

WolfpackGuy
12-28-2009, 01:25 PM
He's just been a taller Brian Griese.

Maybe they ought to shop him around and get into a situation where he won't return Bowlen's calls to force his way out of Denver.

It worked once, right?

BroncoMan4ever
12-28-2009, 01:25 PM
Is that the best you've got to make an intelligent argument, moron?!

so sad that you must resort to immature name calling simply because someone doesn't agree with your take on this subject. also, just so you are aware, the use of name calling is a sign of stupidity amongst people who not intelligent enough to give a good response towards someone elses opinion.

but since you asked the question i will give you the answers why Brandstater will never be our QBOTF.

1) for a rookie he is already at an advanced age. Almost as old as Orton who is in his 5th year as an NFL QB.

2) he is incredibly raw, and at his age as a rookie it makes no sense to draft an incredibly raw QB that will need at least 3 years before he is capable of being a viable option as an NFL QB. just because he looked decent in preseason competing against guys who were no better than 3rd and 4th stringers, practice squad players or no longer in the NFL, doesn't mean he has the necessary ability to look decent against NFL starters.

3) he was a 6th round pick. and yes while it is true New England has had success with 6th round picks, Brady and Cassell, neither of them were drafted with the intentions of becoming starters. Both were drafted to be nothing more than backups and then were thrust into the starting role when injury struck. Brandstater was drafted with the same intention, to be a backup who rides the pine that knows the system inside and out and can step in if an emergency happens, and at that he is still the number 3 option. Meaning that even as badly as Simms has performed for us, he is still a more viable and better option for the team as an emergency starter than Brandstater is.

4) McDaniels entire sales pitch to guys like Dawkins and the rest of the older vets he brought in, was that he would have this team competing for a super bowl title very quickly. By turning the team over to a very raw QB, basically turns that sales pitch into a flat out lie and is a slap in the face to these vets who came to Denver under false pretense, when there were other potential suitors for their services. How do you tell a guy like Dawkins, thanks, for coming to Denver, but i am going to turn the team over to this 6th round draft pick that is nowhere near NFL ready, and by the time he ever becomes a viable option, if he ever does, your career will be over, and you will have wasted the last few years you had left in the NFL playing for a loser instead of a competitor.

5) while it is true that it was only a 5th round draft pick that McDaniels sent over to Chicago for Orton, that is still a very high vote of confidence in Orton. in todays NFL teams don't just toss around draft picks even later round picks for guys they only plan to rent for a single season. also, when looking at the Cutler trade, there were many viable options available, that could have possibly gotten us, Campbell, Anderson, Quinn, (Cassell, not sure but i believe we could have gotten him) Jackson, any of the Tampa Bay QBs, or Sanchez, of all options he chose Orton. meaning he sees the guy as more than just a 1 year stop gap. he could have gotten the Jets draft pick which was Sanchez and had a 1st round rookie talent to build into a star. Campbell and Quinn are both talented former 1st rounders who have shown flashes of talent but are in ****ty situations.

all of these signs point towards Brandstater never being anything more than a backup and Orton being our QB for the forseable future.

BroncoMan4ever
12-28-2009, 01:29 PM
Oddly enough, I feel differently. I've been more confidant at 3rd and 5 this season, where they'll allow Orton to throw, than 3rd and short. Sadly those are also the down and distances where he gets the most pass rush heat, but if the rush doesn't get to him, he is good at finding the open man. No one will make every read and pass, but Orton makes far more than he misses in my opinion.

i agree. when 3rd down comes and it is 3rd and short i am actually hoping for a penalty to push us back a few yards and make it a passing situation or that we just bypass the run and let Orton thrown, because i am more comfortable with Orton throwing for a potential 1st down than i am with our running game getting the necessary short yardage.

kupesdad
12-28-2009, 01:57 PM
You don't think Clady, Hamilton, Weigman, and Kuper have regressed then?

It's very easy to say the OL has regressed. Since we have no vertical threat, teams get to line up with 8 or 9 guys in the box and pound away. This, Ryan Harris getting hurt and our schedule have made it look like these guys aren't the same group as last year. In addition, a very complicated scheme has players thinking instead of playing hard. It isn't a lack of ability that has kept Hillis on the sidelines and put others in the doghouse early in the season. There are a lot of armchair QB's on this website that have no ****ing clue on how an NFL offense is run (myself included). The only advantage I have is the ability to discuss the game with people who have actually played in the league. It really has shown me that even though I have been a coach for almost 30 years there is a ton of things I have to learn.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 02:01 PM
It's very easy to say the OL has regressed. Since we have no vertical threat, teams get to line up with 8 or 9 guys in the box and pound away. This, Ryan Harris getting hurt and our schedule have made it look like these guys aren't the same group as last year. In addition, a very complicated scheme has players thinking instead of playing hard. It isn't a lack of ability that has kept Hillis on the sidelines and put others in the doghouse early in the season. There are a lot of armchair QB's on this website that have no ****ing clue on how an NFL offense is run (myself included). The only advantage I have is the ability to discuss the game with people who have actually played in the league. It really has shown me that even though I have been a coach for almost 30 years there is a ton of things I have to learn.

So from what you know, do you feel that most of the problems are things that will be ironed simply by playing in the system longer and getting more and more comfortable? That has been my stance on the subject

kupesdad
12-28-2009, 02:09 PM
So from what you know, do you feel that most of the problems are things that will be ironed simply by playing in the system longer and getting more and more comfortable? That has been my stance on the subject

It will take a combination of roster moves and getting more comfortable with the scheme. As far as whether my son fits in this plan... I'm very sure if it doesn't work out with Denver he will have a number of opportunities in the league. Looking around the league there are a ton of guard and tackle's that Chris could replace. He loves the Broncos but understands that it is a business.

2KBack
12-28-2009, 02:11 PM
It will take a combination of roster moves and getting more comfortable with the scheme. As far as whether my son fits in this plan... I'm very sure if it doesn't work out with Denver he will have a number of opportunities in the league. Looking around the league there are a ton of guard and tackle's that Chris could replace. He loves the Broncos but understands that it is a business.

I'd say that Kuper is fine, it's the guys around him that are crumbling. Wiegmann isn't ideal in the system, and losing Harris made things doubley difficult on that side of the line.

Requiem
12-28-2009, 02:12 PM
Well Mr. Kuper,

I hope your son can stay in Denver. He has been pretty solid for us this year. Gotta support a UND player, even if I go to NDSU. Gettin' pro guys out of this state is always wonderful!

jhns
12-28-2009, 02:29 PM
It will take a combination of roster moves and getting more comfortable with the scheme.

I agree. Get a center, left guard, and QB. Then give them time and they can develope into a top offense again. Every offensive player we had last year did not suddenly hit a wall due to age or any other rediculous theory. The scheme is killing them against the run and the QB is killing the o-line and WRs in the passing game.

Also, Kuper is one of the better young guards in the league. He should be a Bronco for a long time unless he wants paid a lot more than we can afford.

elsid13
12-28-2009, 02:55 PM
It will take a combination of roster moves and getting more comfortable with the scheme. As far as whether my son fits in this plan... I'm very sure if it doesn't work out with Denver he will have a number of opportunities in the league. Looking around the league there are a ton of guard and tackle's that Chris could replace. He loves the Broncos but understands that it is a business.

Don't worry DC/NOVA is great town and Snyder always overpays.

strafen
12-28-2009, 05:58 PM
so sad that you must resort to immature name calling simply because someone doesn't agree with your take on this subject. also, just so you are aware, the use of name calling is a sign of stupidity amongst people who not intelligent enough to give a good response towards someone elses opinion.

What the hell are you talking about...

This is what you've said:


people need to quit sucking Brandstaters dick. the guy has as much chance of becoming our QBOTF as i do of waking up tomorrow receiving a hummer from Marissa Miller.

This was my response:
Is that the best you've got to make an intelligent argument, moron?!

So you're saying my response is far worse than your vulgar response?
And you calling me immature because I didn't agree with it?
Are you kiddin' me? ROFL!

also, just so you are aware, the use of name calling is a sign of stupidity amongst people who not intelligent enough to give a good response towards someone elses opinion.Yeah, you sure were expecting a good response to that, weren't you?

bloodsunday
12-28-2009, 06:03 PM
Something tells me we'll be using one of our first 3 picks to make the QB situation much more solid next season.

Something tells me you are wrong. The only QB in jeopardy on this roster is Simms.

bloodsunday
12-28-2009, 06:07 PM
The notion of going after a third QB in three seasons is laughable to me. Orton did most everything he was asked to do this year. Did it occur to anyone that maybe we don't throw the ball downfield because we can't hold blocks long enough? Am I the only one that witnessed Eagle d-lineman getting to Orton in under 3 seconds with a 3 man rush?

If I am disappointed in anything, I am surprised we didn't exploit the middle of the field more this season with Scheffler.

Ratboy
12-28-2009, 06:37 PM
It's very easy to say the OL has regressed. Since we have no vertical threat, teams get to line up with 8 or 9 guys in the box and pound away. This, Ryan Harris getting hurt and our schedule have made it look like these guys aren't the same group as last year. In addition, a very complicated scheme has players thinking instead of playing hard. It isn't a lack of ability that has kept Hillis on the sidelines and put others in the doghouse early in the season. There are a lot of armchair QB's on this website that have no ****ing clue on how an NFL offense is run (myself included). The only advantage I have is the ability to discuss the game with people who have actually played in the league. It really has shown me that even though I have been a coach for almost 30 years there is a ton of things I have to learn.

Awesome ****ing post!

Ratboy
12-28-2009, 06:45 PM
Am I the only one that witnessed Eagle d-lineman getting to Orton in under 3 seconds with a 3 man rush?

No, everyone can see that, but look at our linemen? They are all banged up and we've been starting 2nd and 3rd string players.

However, Orton has NEVER been able to throw down field on a consistant basis. I am not saying we need to replace him now, but we should look at replacement options.

Kyle Orton would be a kickass backup in case a starter went down.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 06:49 PM
Kyle Orton would be a kickass backup in case a starter went down.

So would any other guy that's better than half the starters in the league at his position.

Ratboy
12-28-2009, 07:09 PM
So would any other guy that's better than half the starters in the league at his position.

Half? I wish.

Debatable, I suppose.

Beantown Bronco
12-28-2009, 07:36 PM
Half? I wish.

Debatable, I suppose.

I'd take Orton over any of these guys straight up:

Jason Campbell
Jay Cutler
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Henne
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Mark Sanchez
Matthew Stafford
Alex Smith
Jake Delhomme
Vince Young
Josh Freeman
Marc Bulger
Brady Quinn
Kerry Collins
JaMarcus Russell

rastaman
12-28-2009, 07:49 PM
I'd take Orton over any of these guys straight up:

Jason Campbell
Jay Cutler
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Henne
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Mark Sanchez
Matthew Stafford
Alex Smith
Jake Delhomme
Vince Young
Josh Freeman
Marc Bulger
Brady Quinn
Kerry Collins
JaMarcus Russell

Jason Campbell throws the better deep and intermediate ball.

Finger Roll
12-28-2009, 07:51 PM
I'd take Orton over any of these guys straight up:

Jason Campbell
Jay Cutler
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Henne
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Mark Sanchez
Matthew Stafford
Alex Smith
Jake Delhomme
Vince Young
Josh Freeman
Marc Bulger
Brady Quinn
Kerry Collins
JaMarcus Russell

you would take him over Ryan? I wouldn't take him over Ryan, Young, Cutler or Hasselback. I would also rather have Sanchez, Henne, freeman and Stafford because of upside

~Crash~
12-28-2009, 08:11 PM
It's very easy to say the OL has regressed. Since we have no vertical threat, teams get to line up with 8 or 9 guys in the box and pound away. This, Ryan Harris getting hurt and our schedule have made it look like these guys aren't the same group as last year. In addition, a very complicated scheme has players thinking instead of playing hard. It isn't a lack of ability that has kept Hillis on the sidelines and put others in the doghouse early in the season. There are a lot of armchair QB's on this website that have no ****ing clue on how an NFL offense is run (myself included). The only advantage I have is the ability to discuss the game with people who have actually played in the league. It really has shown me that even though I have been a coach for almost 30 years there is a ton of things I have to learn.

very good take . I have no problem with any of this but our coach made sure we had no vertical threat I am taking it you think that cutler and hills was not able to grasp what was going on.

PaintballCLE
12-28-2009, 08:21 PM
the question to ask yourself is would you rather have peyton manning with our bad pass protecting offensive line, or Kyle Orton with Indy's top pass protecting line.


If you would rather have manning then we should get a new Qb, I on the other hand would rather have the indy line. Time can make any QB be great. defenders get through our line way to fast to have any competent offense.

mr007
12-28-2009, 08:34 PM
It isn't a lack of ability that has kept Hillis on the sidelines and put others in the doghouse early in the season.

So what is it, out of curiosity? Some tout that our best players are on the field at all times, so this statement makes me think otherwise and that it may be ego based.

kupesdad
12-28-2009, 08:34 PM
very good take . I have no problem with any of this but our coach made sure we had no vertical threat I am taking it you think that cutler and hills was not able to grasp what was going on.

I think that game management is important in this scheme and a gunslinger mentality doesn't fit. As far as hillis is concerned, I think if physically he is able to do the job it's the coaches responsibility to "dumb down" the play book if they want to utilize his abilities orfind someone to do the job that can understand what is required. This is my opinion and does not reflect anything my son has shared with me.

phillybroncosnut
12-28-2009, 09:10 PM
Just some "inside scoop".... Cheer for the Egirls to get eliminated very early in the playoffs. there are leaks that if he doesnt at the very least have a good to great game in the NFC Championship game, the Egirls will not give him an extension. No extension means, hes as good as gone from Philly. I think McNabb would look very good in Orange and would do wonders to our Offense with his ability to throw the vertical ball.
Cheer hard against the Egirls!

RhymesayersDU
12-28-2009, 09:33 PM
the question to ask yourself is would you rather have peyton manning with our bad pass protecting offensive line, or Kyle Orton with Indy's top pass protecting line.


If you would rather have manning then we should get a new Qb, I on the other hand would rather have the indy line. Time can make any QB be great. defenders get through our line way to fast to have any competent offense.

While I believe I understand what you're saying (we need a better o-line) and I agree with that, it also sounds like you're saying a guy like Peyton Manning is purely a product of his offensive line, which is absurd.

Lolad
12-28-2009, 09:36 PM
I'd take Orton over any of these guys straight up:

Jason Campbell
Jay Cutler
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Henne
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Mark Sanchez
Matthew Stafford
Alex Smith
Jake Delhomme
Vince Young
Josh Freeman
Marc Bulger
Brady Quinn
Kerry Collins
JaMarcus Russell

Umm.. I will take Matt Ryan for sure over Orton, and give us Cutler back and see if McDaniels can coach him to make better decisions, Mark Sanchez I would take him, Matthew Stafford I would take him, Even matt Cassel if he can improve upon what he did last year. The rest of the guys are in Ortons league, which is average/bottom feeders

RhymesayersDU
12-28-2009, 09:41 PM
Jason Campbell is an interesting player. The debate rages over him. I've heard a lot of people say he's actually got all the tools, but his idiot GM/owner has given him 5 different OC's over 5 years and that even Peyton Manning couldn't excel like that. Given some stability JC might be OK.

Also Young may have finally pulled his head out of his ass.

Finger Roll
12-28-2009, 09:43 PM
I would rather have Vince Young now than Kyle Orton to be honest

RhymesayersDU
12-28-2009, 09:47 PM
Yeah VY is interesting. I want to see him play next season for the full year, and see what progress he's made. He might not be bad.

PaintballCLE
12-28-2009, 09:53 PM
While I believe I understand what you're saying (we need a better o-line) and I agree with that, it also sounds like you're saying a guy like Peyton Manning is purely a product of his offensive line, which is absurd.

im not saying he is a product of the oline.........but what im saying is if he has our oline.............hes not the greatest qb in the league like he is now.

jhns
12-29-2009, 06:07 AM
the question to ask yourself is would you rather have peyton manning with our bad pass protecting offensive line, or Kyle Orton with Indy's top pass protecting line.


If you would rather have manning then we should get a new Qb, I on the other hand would rather have the indy line. Time can make any QB be great. defenders get through our line way to fast to have any competent offense.

I would rather they try to fix and improve everything on the team. Why is it either, or?

cdabroncofan
12-29-2009, 06:19 AM
I was in Phily this past weekend and there are alot of fans don't like McNabb. My thinking is that these fans are the same ones that wanted them to draft R. Williams and will never forget them for it. My point is all the fans in Denver that want Orton out are the ones that never wanted him to begin with. Both McNabb and Orton always give you a chance to win, as a fan that's all l want.

elsid13
12-29-2009, 06:26 AM
Jason Campbell is an interesting player. The debate rages over him. I've heard a lot of people say he's actually got all the tools, but his idiot GM/owner has given him 5 different OC's over 5 years and that even Peyton Manning couldn't excel like that. Given some stability JC might be OK.

Also Young may have finally pulled his head out of his ass.

There more to the story then that. Campbell while he appears to be a good guy, isn't the leader like a QB needs to be. In interviews, his offense teammates have stated that center is the leader of the huddle not Campbell. That never good sign. Plus he really fit of the short passing game, he needs to in place like Oakland were he goes deep first then check down to the backs.

jhns
12-29-2009, 06:30 AM
I was in Phily this past weekend and there are alot of fans don't like McNabb. My thinking is that these fans are the same ones that wanted them to draft R. Williams and will never forget them for it. My point is all the fans in Denver that want Orton out are the ones that never wanted him to begin with. Both McNabb and Orton always give you a chance to win, as a fan that's all l want.

What a rediculous post. Did you really just compare McNabb to Orton?

You are correct that many didn't want Orton. The difference is he had been in the NFL 4 years already and people knew what we were getting. How is it that he helps us win games exactly? You do realize we have one of the best defenses in the league and can only get 9 wins now, right? You do realize he is leading a bottom third of the league offense, right? Even if it is just a bunch of other stuff wrong with the team that is working against him, there is still no way you can claim Orton does anything. This claim that he does something for the team should probably wait until the offense shows up once or twice.

McNabb has led many productive offenses. Orton has never led a productive offense. McNabb has won playoff games. Orton has not. I could go on forever. Horrible comparison.

cdabroncofan
12-29-2009, 06:44 AM
What a rediculous post. Did you really just compare McNabb to Orton?

You are correct that many didn't want Orton. The difference is he had been in the NFL 4 years already and people knew what we were getting. How is it that he helps us win games exactly? You do realize we have one of the best defenses in the league and can only get 9 wins now, right? You do realize he is leading a bottom third of the league offense, right? Even if it is just a bunch of other stuff wrong with the team that is working against him, there is still no way you can claim Orton does anything. This claim that he does something for the team should probably wait until the offense shows up once or twice.

McNabb has led many productive offenses. Orton has never led a productive offense. McNabb has won playoff games. Orton has not. I could go on forever. Horrible comparison.

No l didn't compare these two QB's what l'm trying to say is the only fans that want these two QB's out are the fans that didn't want them to begin with

cdabroncofan
12-29-2009, 06:48 AM
l personally know Donovan and ya these two QB's don't compare.

oubronco
12-29-2009, 06:50 AM
I'd take Orton over any of these guys straight up:

Jason Campbell
Jay Cutler
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Henne
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Mark Sanchez
Matthew Stafford
Alex Smith
Jake Delhomme
Vince Young
Josh Freeman
Marc Bulger
Brady Quinn
Kerry Collins
JaMarcus Russell

I'd take Henne, Ryan, Sanchez, or Stafford over Orton

oubronco
12-29-2009, 07:00 AM
defenders get through our line way to fast to have any competent offense.

Since the Baltimore game teams know we won't be throwing the deep ball so they are just stacking the line and sitting on the short stuff. With no respect for the passing game they are just eating our inside line up

PaintballCLE
12-29-2009, 07:37 AM
Since the Baltimore game teams know we won't be throwing the deep ball so they are just stacking the line and sitting on the short stuff. With no respect for the passing game they are just eating our inside line up

very true, but they also know they can get through the line without blitzing......a very bad combination.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 08:45 AM
...there are leaks that if he doesnt at the very least have a good to great game in the NFC Championship game, the Egirls will not give him an extension. No extension means, hes as good as gone from Philly.

I've heard this but don't buy it. No way they turn this offense over to Kolb. And it probably doesn't matter because the Eagles will probably go at least to the NFC Championshiop Game. Vikings peaked too soon, Saints have come back to earth, and nobody else (Packers? Cardinals?) is likely to beat the Eagles unless the Cowboys do what they haven't done in a long time.

misturanderson
12-29-2009, 08:55 AM
very true, but they also know they can get through the line without blitzing......a very bad combination.

And with that being the case, it's pretty damn hard to let any long routes develop, let alone set your feet and get off a good downfield pass.

Dagmar
12-29-2009, 09:29 AM
Since the Baltimore game teams know we won't be throwing the deep ball so they are just stacking the line and sitting on the short stuff. With no respect for the passing game they are just eating our inside line up

Didn't we go deep 3 times early against Washington?

misturanderson
12-29-2009, 09:31 AM
Didn't we go deep 3 times early against Washington?

Those were blown coverages, so they don't count as far as us going deep or Orton throwing an accurate deep ball. Or so I've been told.

jhns
12-29-2009, 09:34 AM
Those were blown coverages, so they don't count as far as us going deep or Orton throwing an accurate deep ball. Or so I've been told.

Count them all you want. Then let us know how 3 passes against a horrible team help force all the other defenses we have played to back off the line. Maybe you can explain how teams have to fear the deep ball now.

Dagmar
12-29-2009, 09:38 AM
Those were blown coverages, so they don't count as far as us going deep or Orton throwing an accurate deep ball. Or so I've been told.

Oh, I didn't know they didn't count. Likr the first 6 wins don't count cause our preseason was 10 games. Cool cool.

Los Broncos
12-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Those were blown coverages, so they don't count as far as us going deep or Orton throwing an accurate deep ball. Or so I've been told.

I think it was the first TD pass wasn't blown, CB bit on Marshalls fake.

rastaman
12-29-2009, 01:02 PM
I've heard this but don't buy it. No way they turn this offense over to Kolb. And it probably doesn't matter because the Eagles will probably go at least to the NFC Championshiop Game. Vikings peaked too soon, Saints have come back to earth, and nobody else (Packers? Cardinals?) is likely to beat the Eagles unless the Cowboys do what they haven't done in a long time.

Kolb has a big upside and has an NFL arm. I'd like to see McD make a run at him when he becomes a FA! McNab has at least 5-6 years left, why should Kolb wait that long before he gets a chance to start.

Seriously, I'd give the Eagles a 1st and 2nd to sign Kolb.

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2009, 01:05 PM
Seriously, I'd give the Eagles a 1st and 2nd to sign Kolb.

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Dukes
12-29-2009, 01:14 PM
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He's fried enough brain cells

rastaman
12-29-2009, 04:02 PM
Spoken like two Orton Butt Snorkelers. Way to go fellas.