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Popps
12-27-2009, 06:08 PM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.

go_broncos
12-27-2009, 06:11 PM
POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even OAK has more wins in that span.
I feel frustrasted..Losing to Raiders is unacceptable.
I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

Our QB sucks, O-line is not great, old defense..not sure why you are excited.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-27-2009, 06:12 PM
In the NFL , there's no margin for error. A loss is a loss. This team blew it

SonOfLe-loLang
12-27-2009, 06:13 PM
I'd be more with you if i saw any reason to get excited about this team, but i dont see them on the road to improvement. Too many holes at important positions.

yerner
12-27-2009, 06:15 PM
fag

lex
12-27-2009, 06:15 PM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.

Who's the troll? You knew you would get flamed yet you made the post anyway.

Just STFU and go away.

azbroncfan
12-27-2009, 06:16 PM
I like the way this team has shown the ability to get back into games that in the past would of been blowouts under the Shanny regime. The Oakland loss will haunt this team. In fact losing to Oakland at home last two years cost this franchise play off berths.

Popps
12-27-2009, 06:17 PM
I'd be more with you if i saw any reason to get excited about this team, but i dont see them on the road to improvement. Too many holes at important positions.

That's fine. People weren't with me in the offseason when I thought we were making the right moves, either. I was told we'd be a disaster for years. We're about to finish with a winning record and played tough games against Philly and Indy down the stretch.


Now, don't mistake that for not thinking we need to address problem areas.


Of course we have problem areas.

Did anyone think we WOULDN'T have problem areas the first season of a (true) rebuild?


I've been saying for weeks that we don't have the horses. We don't. Period.

All that said, today showed me promise and a great effort. This wasn't a lay-down job like last season. This team played the asses off.

I'm deflated, but I loved that we clawed back into this game.

This team has a solid core... and a soul.

troya900
12-27-2009, 06:17 PM
To me the only positive out of this is that the Broncos were expected to be a complete failure with maybe 3 or 4 wins and they did better than that. Other than that there is a lot wrong with this team that needs to be fixed and imo McDaniels draft isn't looking so hot. I absolutely hate Moreno (maybe its unwarranted) but I'm sick of seeing him get stuffed and look slow as hell, and then see Buckhalter come in and look a ton better with the same sh1tty offensive line.

OBF1
12-27-2009, 06:17 PM
At the end of the game when we had what.... 4th and 2 and we chose to punt, Right then I knew we lost the game. Berger was kicking like my mother and I knew that after the return Philly would only need 8-10 yards for a legit field goal attempt for the win. IF our punter was kicking good I could have accepted the call to punt but everyone in the world except for McDaniels must have known that Berger would not get it past the mid field stripe.

There are so many areas that this team needs to improve in to be a true contender, I just hope our off season goes well to address our glaring needs.

***Vent mode off***

Broncos123
12-27-2009, 06:18 PM
[QUOTE=go_broncos;2691209]POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

I see a team with alot more fight in it. Last years team quit in the last game. This team always battles

Popps
12-27-2009, 06:19 PM
I like the way this team has shown the ability to get back into games that in the past would of been blowouts under the Shanny regime. The Oakland loss will haunt this team. In fact losing to Oakland at home last two years cost this franchise play off berths.

Yep. This team has a soul. It's just different.

That said, you can't make mistakes against a team like Oakland that's playing their Superbowl. That team had one thing left to play for, and that was to beat us.

Look at the Saints today. It's almost harder being the favorite in some of these games late in the season. Teams are gunning for you... trying to get something out of the season.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 06:19 PM
POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even OAK has more wins in that span.
I feel frustrasted..Losing to Raiders is unacceptable.
I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

Our QB sucks, O-line is not great, old defense..not sure why you are excited.

bingo! THIS SAME MORON (POOPS) WOULD BE CALLING FOR SHANNY'S HEAD AGAIN THIS YEAR IF THE SAME COLLAPSE WAS HAPPENING UNDER MIKE'S WATCH--HIS HYPOCRISY KNOWS NO BOUNDS!

ScottXray
12-27-2009, 06:20 PM
POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even OAK has more wins in that span.
I feel frustrasted..Losing to Raiders is unacceptable.
I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

Our QB sucks, O-line is not great, old defense..not sure why you are excited.


There is a reason that this is not as bad as last year. We were in every game except one over the last nine weeks, and we gave every team we played pretty much all they could handle, even with no short yardage run game and several of our O-line starters out. I also am proud of the way they came back in the second half today to take it to the final minute, despite some pretty horrible calls killing our drives or extending Phillys.

We still can have a 9-7 record....better than last year, and in the first year McD is with the team. Hopefully the O-line, D-line will get a fix next year and we will continue to improve.

It will probably be another turbulent off-season around here.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 06:20 PM
[QUOTE=go_broncos;2691209]POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

I see a team with alot more fight in it. Last years team quit in the last game. This team always battles

THEY DIDN'T QUIT AGAINST BUFFALO LAST YEAR.....

Popps
12-27-2009, 06:20 PM
At the end of the game when we had what.... 4th and 2 and we chose to punt, Right then I knew we lost the game. Berger was kicking like my mother and I knew that after the return Philly would only need 8-10 yards for a legit field goal attempt for the win. IF our punter was kicking good I could have accepted the call to punt but everyone in the world except for McDaniels must have known that Berger would not get it past the mid field stripe.

There are so many areas that this team needs to improve in to be a true contender, I just hope our off season goes well to address our glaring needs.

***Vent mode of****

The only part I'll disagree with is "so" many.

You put two quality interior offensive linemen on this team today, and we ****ing win.

Our O-line played AGAINST us all day long. Brutal penalties at crucial times, and just horrible blocking and "protection" all day.

Requiem
12-27-2009, 06:20 PM
And if we would have won the game, BF7? Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Greatspirits
12-27-2009, 06:21 PM
I like the way this team fought back, but they had their chances, I blame this on Orton, He has to make plays in the 4th quarter!

troya900
12-27-2009, 06:22 PM
bingo! THIS SAME MORON (POOPS) WOULD BE CALLING FOR SHANNY'S HEAD AGAIN THIS YEAR IF THE SAME COLLAPSE WAS HAPPENING UNDER MIKE'S WATCH--HIS HYPOCRISY KNOWS NO BOUNDS!

The difference is moron that Shanny had 10 mediocre years and 1 playoff win, yes count it ONE playoff win in that 10 year span. This is McD's first year so give him a little bit of a break he installed a new system etc. and appears we will have a winning record at 9-7. The two situations aren't even comparable.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 06:22 PM
and if we would have won the game, bf7? Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

you are more mentally handicapped than i ever imagined........

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 06:22 PM
This was the best game we have played in awhile. If we played like this last week we wouldn't have to worry about other teams winning or losing. McD HAS to do better next year in not letting us play down to teams we should clown stomp. Oakland is fighting hard but we can't drop that game or the game to the Skins. I was very very impressed today even if we didn't pull it out in the end.

Popps
12-27-2009, 06:23 PM
[QUOTE=Broncos123;2691256]

THEY DIDN'T QUIT AGAINST BUFFALO LAST YEAR.....

Buffalo was trash.

Philly is a playoff team.

Check out our effort against San Diego last season if you want to know what quitting is all about. DJ Williams literally jogging around... guys just mailing it in.

It's a different mindset, and long-time fans recognize it.

HEAV
12-27-2009, 06:23 PM
Damn proud of the second half effort. The heart this team showed...HUGE!

Last year this game would have been a blowout loss. This year they worked and fought to come back from 17 down.

I love the direction this franchise is going!

lex
12-27-2009, 06:24 PM
The difference is moron that Shanny had 10 mediocre years and 1 playoff win, yes count it ONE playoff win in that 10 year span. This is McD's first year so give him a little bit of a break he installed a new system etc. and appears we will have a winning record at 9-7. The two situations aren't even comparable.

STFU. You dont even know what youre talking about. Actually, Denver had a top 10 winning % during the time after Elway retired.

HEAV
12-27-2009, 06:24 PM
This message is hidden because broncofan7 is on your ignore list.


Just do it...it will make all your posting lives better. This guy is a sh*t stain.

frerottenextelway
12-27-2009, 06:25 PM
Impressed with the effort, but the bottom line is this was still the worst collapse in NFL history after starting 6-0.

lex
12-27-2009, 06:25 PM
Damn proud of the second half effort. The heart this team showed...HUGE!

Last year this game would have been a blowout loss. This year they worked and fought to come back from 17 down.

I love the direction this franchise is going!

They lost. And they've gone 2-7 since starting 6-0. So much for your theory that theyre bowing up when they need to. And, btw, they lost.

Requiem
12-27-2009, 06:26 PM
you are more mentally handicapped than i ever imagined........

Man, if that is the case -- I don't even want to know how stupid you are! :egbgb:

DB_champ24
12-27-2009, 06:26 PM
The difference is moron that Shanny had 10 mediocre years and 1 playoff win, yes count it ONE playoff win in that 10 year span. This is McD's first year so give him a little bit of a break he installed a new system etc. and appears we will have a winning record at 9-7. The two situations aren't even comparable.

WOW, someone with some common sense on this board????? I'm shocked!

Broncomutt
12-27-2009, 06:26 PM
I respect your point of view Popps, I usually see things the same way as you. But this team looks very poorly coached and so undisciplined.

This team started the season with a chip on its shoulder. Baltimore knocked it off and we have plummeted ever since. The lone 'hiccup of success' came after a player only meeting if I'm not mistaken. The only coaching I've seen is profanity laced temper-tantrums.

I'm not calling for McDaniels to be fired, he should get another year. Nor does he deserve 100% of the blame. But if he deserves credit for 6-0, he deserves credit for this EPIC collapse. This team is a Hindenberg.

Another historic collapse :-[

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 06:27 PM
I don't know what to think. I'm too disappointed about another late season collapse. Here are my (random) thoughts:

1) This is why I want to make the playoffs and don't care how bad we lose. Psychologically it will differentiate this team from the teams of the last few years. Otherwise we are grasping for straws to compare McD to Shanny, Orton to Cutler, Zone blocking versus power football, etc... It makes for a tiresome argument.

2) In general I am happy with this season CONSIDERING the turbulent off season. BUT, in general, I am disappointed with the loss to the Raiders and blowing a 6 - 0 start. See point #1.

3) I hate the idea of rebuilding for hundreds of reasons. First of all, this uncapped year crap is crazy. Secondly, it screws with how you view FAs. IF we are rebuilding, then can you justify 70M to dumerville? And finally, it's hard to motivate anyone (fans, players, etc...) to support a team in that situation.

4) we don't have a real answer at QB more than a decade after Elway (and no it wasn't Cutler either). I love the effort and grit of Orton, much the same I felt about Plummer, but we are just overmatched against Rivers, Flaco, Big Gen, McNabb, etc...

5) I am absolutely stunned at how much our OL has gone backward this year. It might be to take a step forward next year, but it's brutal watching Orton run for his life against a 3 man rush. It's brutal watching or OL get stalmated/pushed back on 3rd and 2. I thought that was the unit to hang our hat on this year.

6) If I never see another WR screen play, it will be too soon.

NYBronco
12-27-2009, 06:27 PM
It was a difficult game to watch but turned into a great game in the second half.

Stokely getting himself removed was senseless. Orton could have used him during the second half comeback. Too many dropped balls by our receivers and again the weekly offensive line breakdown allowing too many QB sacks and nonexistent rushing game.

The team could still end up 9 and 7 and as I have mentioned before so much better then my preseason expectations.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-27-2009, 06:27 PM
Yep. This team has a soul. It's just different.

That said, you can't make mistakes against a team like Oakland that's playing their Superbowl. That team had one thing left to play for, and that was to beat us.

Look at the Saints today. It's almost harder being the favorite in some of these games late in the season. Teams are gunning for you... trying to get something out of the season.

I'd buy the soul argument if we didn't lose to teams like Oakland when we needed it more than anything.

Trust me, i want to see improvement and a reason to get excited, i just dont.

Play2win
12-27-2009, 06:28 PM
Just one of the most painful games I have watched as a Bronco Fan, that I can remember.

There have been a few this year.

The good news is, with a whole offseason with our new complete coaching staff, system and players, the Broncos are only going to get better.

So, this excruciating losses, and the accompanying pain, will turn into "Cardiac Kids" invigorating last second wins in the coming years. And that is something to definitely look forward to.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 06:31 PM
Man, if that is the case -- I don't even want to know how stupid you are! :egbgb:

not stupid enough to think that McD has us going in the right direction!

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 06:32 PM
Just one of the most painful games I have watched as a Bronco Fan, that I can remember.

There have been a few this year.

The good news is, with a whole offseason with our new complete coaching staff, system and players, the Broncos are only going to get better.

So, this excruciating losses, and the accompanying pain, will turn into "Cardiac Kids" invigorating last second wins in the coming years. And that is something to definitely look forward to.

not with Kyle Orton(talent) or without Dawkins(age/injuries)

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 06:32 PM
Buffalo was trash.

Oakland lost to Cleveland today. If we are being honest, that was a horrrible loss last week -- the kind of loss that led to Mike Shanahan getting fired. I think the team played hard, but you have to beat a 4 win team at home. You just have to.

Merlin
12-27-2009, 06:32 PM
If they fail to make the playoffs they will be the first team in history to not make the playoffs after a 6-0 start. They are already the first team in history to not win the division after a 6-0 start and a 3.5 game lead. I still think McD can learn to improve, but he certainly has shown little in the second half of the season. At the time I thought his draft decision were poor, and it appears to be the case (incredibly stupid to get rid of the GM after the past few drafts, I wish his ego were not so large). However, I still would like to see what he can do next season, because unlike the other rotten fruit from Bellicheat's tree, I think his arrogance will not prevent him from learning and making better decisions in the future (he has shown some nice flashes here and there).

snowspot66
12-27-2009, 06:33 PM
STFU. You dont even know what youre talking about. Actually, Denver had a top 10 winning % during the time after Elway retired.

Yes. And nothing to show for it. It was like watching the same season over and over and over again. Props to Shanahan for keeping the team competitive but ten years is more than enough time to build a damned defense and develop an elite offense. We never really accomplished any of that.

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 06:35 PM
I respect your point of view Popps, I usually see things the same way as you. But this team looks very poorly coached and so undisciplined.

See I think this is gratuitous. To me they looked like a team that is undermanned and lucky to hang in against Indy and Philly (mostly because of turnovers). They also look like a team in transition (defensive personnel, offensive blocking scheme, etc...).

That said, until the result change, I can't really say any of that makes me feel better.

troya900
12-27-2009, 06:36 PM
STFU. You dont even know what youre talking about. Actually, Denver had a top 10 winning % during the time after Elway retired.

With 1 playoff win. Call it want you want, it got old year after year after year with mediocre play and a few playoff appearances, but never having a playoff contender.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 06:37 PM
If I never see another WR screen play, it will be too soon.

I understand the sentiment but they actually had some success with it today. The reason they run it so much is that they can't run the football and it's basically a replacement for a running play.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 06:38 PM
See I think this is gratuitous. To me they looked like a team that is undermanned and lucky to hang in against Indy and Philly (mostly because of turnovers). They also look like a team in transition (defensive personnel, offensive blocking scheme, etc...).

That said, until the result change, I can't really say any of that makes me feel better.

Good post, I think you're right no the money. This "collapse" is more about the lack of overall talent catching up with them.

Merlin
12-27-2009, 06:40 PM
I am absolutely stunned at how much our OL has gone backward this year. It might be to take a step forward next year, but it's brutal watching Orton run for his life against a 3 man rush. It's brutal watching or OL get stalmated/pushed back on 3rd and 2. I thought that was the unit to hang our hat on this year.
This was easily predictable, in fact some of us brought it up at the beginning of the season. Cutler has many issues, but he also brings some very good strengths. This line looked good because it worked very well with Cutler's mobility, and Cutler's arm, legs and mobility helped hide its weaknesses. This OL was not designed for a statute. Orton needs the KC line of the Green yrs, not this OL. To be honest, I would rather find a QB that fits this OL than find an OL that fits Orton. However, judging from McD's approach, it is far more likely the dismantling will continue. I hope it can be addressed quickly, because I don't want to see another season of this offense.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 06:46 PM
To be honest, I would rather find a QB that fits this OL than find an OL that fits Orton.

Sounds more than reasonable until you consider that this O-line run blocks worse than it pass protects. We can't move forward with the same O-line, particularly on the interior. Hard to win consistently in the NFL while getting physically whipped on the LOS.

lex
12-27-2009, 06:46 PM
With 1 playoff win. Call it want you want, it got old year after year after year with mediocre play and a few playoff appearances, but never having a playoff contender.

Top 10 over 10 or so years isnt mediocre, dude.

broncosteven
12-27-2009, 06:52 PM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.

Was this from the Eagles or Indy loss? I am not sure anyone was proud of the Oakland loss at home.

broncosteven
12-27-2009, 06:54 PM
Just one of the most painful games I have watched as a Bronco Fan, that I can remember.

There have been a few this year.

The good news is, with a whole offseason with our new complete coaching staff, system and players, the Broncos are only going to get better.

So, this excruciating losses, and the accompanying pain, will turn into "Cardiac Kids" invigorating last second wins in the coming years. And that is something to definitely look forward to.

I dunno a 3 game losing streak to end the season with a loss to a 5-9 divisional opponet does not seem like we are in the right direction.

MplsBronco
12-27-2009, 06:56 PM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.

I feel if this team can find away to get in to the playoffs they can win a game. It's not like we haven't been competitive, even in the losses (sans maybe bmore and SD).

Merlin
12-27-2009, 06:57 PM
Sounds more than reasonable until you consider that this O-line run blocks worse than it pass protects.
Because it is schizophrenic. It was designed as a mobile ZB OL, but they are being required to behave as a Power OL. With mediocre RBs last yr it did far better with rushing. It has to do with coaching decisions, not the line. If the line were to be used in the manner it was designed it would easily be one of the better OLs in the league.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 07:00 PM
2-7 down the stretch with no QB on the roster worth a damn and the secondary all in their 30s is not exciting or encouraging, it's mediocrity, pure and simple.

Broncos need a QB, and that in and or itself is a failure on McDaniels' part. Nolan turned out to be a good hire, and Dumervil became a monster. The offense is shot because of the lack of ability coming from the QB, which has been, of course, my point since the debacle last March.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:02 PM
2-7 down the stretch with no QB on the roster worth a damn and the secondary all in their 30s is not exciting or encouraging, it's mediocrity, pure and simple.

Broncos need a QB, and that in and or itself is a failure on McDaniels' part. Nolan turned out to be a good hire, and Dumervil became a monster. The offense is shot because of the lack of ability coming from the QB.

Orton has limitations, for sure... but you can't blame today or last week on him.

We scored 27 points today. We left a lot of points on the field between Marshall dropping easy catches and the O-line stepping on their dicks every other play.

I'm fine with upgrading the QB spot if a better option is available, but it's not fair to say he's our biggest problem, either. He played well today.

We need to run the ball better. Our line is junk.

MplsBronco
12-27-2009, 07:04 PM
If they fail to make the playoffs they will be the first team in history to not make the playoffs after a 6-0 start. They are already the first team in history to not win the division after a 6-0 start and a 3.5 game lead. I still think McD can learn to improve, but he certainly has shown little in the second half of the season. At the time I thought his draft decision were poor, and it appears to be the case (incredibly stupid to get rid of the GM after the past few drafts, I wish his ego were not so large). However, I still would like to see what he can do next season, because unlike the other rotten fruit from Bellicheat's tree, I think his arrogance will not prevent him from learning and making better decisions in the future (he has shown some nice flashes here and there).

Pretty sure this is false. Vikes were 6-0 in 2003, maybe? Nice try though. Still not a very nice achievement.

Tombstone RJ
12-27-2009, 07:04 PM
Seriously, how many rushing yards did the Broncos have today? Anyone know?

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 07:04 PM
I understand the sentiment but they actually had some success with it today. The reason they run it so much is that they can't run the football and it's basically a replacement for a running play.

Yes but it goes for negative yardage WAY too often.

MplsBronco
12-27-2009, 07:05 PM
Impressed with the effort, but the bottom line is this was still the worst collapse in NFL history after starting 6-0.

Again, a tad dramatic and false.

broncocalijohn
12-27-2009, 07:05 PM
yes we played tough to the end. Same with the Colts game. We need to be able to start games and finish them. Everything in the middle seems to be working ok. We lost to probably a top 5 (or 6) team in the NFL on the road. We needed that win. We are the Broncos and we expect wins when it comes down to the end. Moral victories are for teams rebuilding. I dont think we are exactly at that point. Just blow the **** out of KC next week for a 9-7 record and see where it lands us.

Bronco LB52
12-27-2009, 07:06 PM
Popps

I was proud of this team today too, but I wish you would have felt the same about some of Denver's hard fought losses late in Shanahan's career.

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 07:07 PM
Orton has limitations, for sure... but you can't blame today or last week on him.

I'm fine with upgrading the QB spot if a better option is available, but it's not fair to say he's our biggest problem, either. He played well today.


I don't think Orton is our biggest problem. But I do think that we are at a disadvantage in terms of talent at that spot against at least 10 team -- mostly the playoff teams. I don't believe that #1 draft pick is a sure fire thing, in fact I don't think its a good idea. If we cannot find a late round guy or a FA that can change our situation, then we'll just have to live with Orton.

There are situations to be explored, for example, would Philly trade either McNabb or Kolb at some point?

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:07 PM
Seriously, how many rushing yards did the Broncos have today? Anyone know?

Something like 65.

Pathetic, and we STILL scored 27 points.

People want to rip Orton today, but c'mon... 27 points with no run support?



Look, the staff knows what's up. McDaniels has already implied that O-line changes are coming.

Orton will be our starter next season and we'll have at least two new O-line starters, probably one high draft pick. You can bank on that.

People may not like it, but that's the truth.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:10 PM
I don't think Orton is our biggest problem. But I do think that we are at a disadvantage in terms of talent at that spot against at least 10 team -- mostly the playoff teams. I don't believe that #1 draft pick is a sure fire thing, in fact I don't think its a good idea. If we cannot find a late round guy or a FA that can change our situation, then we'll just have to live with Orton.

There are situations to be explored, for example, would Philly trade either McNabb or Kolb at some point?

Oh, ****... well, McNabb is a top 7 QB... if not better. Of course you take a guy like that.

I'm just saying that of the things we probably CAN fix right now, the QB spot is the toughest... considering the statistical production from the position has actually been very good.

We need better blockers up front, and another play-maker on both sides of the ball.

That's the type of thing you CAN do in one off-season.

I also wonder if Brandstater is a potential option down the road.

Either way, I think if Orton is our guy... we still have a chance. It's not that we couldn't improve, but I do believe we can be successful with him at QB until a better option presents itself.

MplsBronco
12-27-2009, 07:12 PM
Popps

I was proud of this team today too, but I wish you would have felt the same about some of Denver's hard fought losses late in Shanahan's career.

Such as?

ZONA
12-27-2009, 07:13 PM
The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.


Not sure about you but saying (if they even manage to beat KC next week) 9-7 is "way past our expectations" is not truthful in my eyes. With some of the pieces we had in place I thought 9-7 or 10-6 would be totally achievable. The great start was nice, maybe we had some luck but we also had one hell of a mutha schedule this year. Losing so many at the end is indeed painful but I'd have to say so far the rebuild is on average pace. Hopefully next year we get closer by adding some more key pieces and we get a break in terms of scheduling. Playing so many teams coming off their bye week totally blew chunks and I still have no idea what the F the schedule makers were thinking when they made it, but hopefully they fire those gents and get somebody who knows what the F they are doing.

ScottXray
12-27-2009, 07:13 PM
Well, take a look at the playoff seedings threads guys.

Win next week and we are in...doesn't matter what anyone else does...
at the #5 seed also.. So the not making the playoffs thing is not a truth unless we blow the game next week. That WOULD hurt as much as last year, and I will be really pissed THEN.

Not proud to sort of back in....but it just means that we are about even with
6 other teams that started the year with playoff hopes....and hardly anyone
thought that we would be where we are at. Miami, Balt ,and Pitt will be out of it, if we and the Jets win.

So hold off on the projections and negativvity for a week.

Merlin
12-27-2009, 07:15 PM
Pretty sure this is false. Vikes were 6-0 in 2003, maybe? Nice try though. Still not a very nice achievement.
That sixth win was against Denver so it didn't count Uhh

You are right, it has not happened in the conference that counts, the AFC.

BTW, that Vikes team finished 9-7, so the Broncos need a win to ensure they are not owners of the worst collapse in NFL history.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 07:16 PM
Orton has limitations, for sure... but you can't blame today or last week on him.

We scored 27 points today. We left a lot of points on the field between Marshall dropping easy catches and the O-line stepping on their ***** every other play.

I'm fine with upgrading the QB spot if a better option is available, but it's not fair to say he's our biggest problem, either. He played well today.

We need to run the ball better. Our line is junk.

You could put Kyle Orton behind the 89 49ers line and he would still suck.

Look dude, I'm not like you. I won't attack your fandom for calling a spade a spade. Kyle Orton is not the answer at QB. He never was. I am scared to death that McDaniels cannot see this or allow himself to admit this and this type of offense will continue.

Hopefully he swallows his pride and grabs another QB.

Ratboy
12-27-2009, 07:18 PM
LOL proud.

So if we were 0-16, but fought till the end on every game, you would be proud?

I love how everyone talks about the heart of the team. This game is not won by how much heart you have, it's called production.

Move along, folks.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:20 PM
You could put Kyle Orton behind the 89 49ers line and he would still suck.

Look dude, I'm not like you. I won't attack your fandom for calling a spade a spade. Kyle Orton is not the answer at QB. He never was. I am scared to death that McDaniels cannot see this or allow himself to admit this and this type of offense will continue.

Hopefully he swallows his pride and grabs another QB.

It's not about pride... and you're not calling a spade a spade.

You have a radical opinion that the rest of the world doesn't share. You're welcome to that opinion, but don't confuse it with common thinking.

Orton has been an above average QB this year in every measurable way. So, when you say "he'd suck behind a great line," you're just not making any sense. He's been decent behind a pretty bad line.

I get it... you don't like him. That's fine. I think he's a nice option right now. We'll see how far we go with him.

But, he'll be our starter next year, and we WILL be addressing the line. You can pull this post up and ridicule me if either of those don't happen.... but I'm not worried.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:22 PM
Popps

I was proud of this team today too, but I wish you would have felt the same about some of Denver's hard fought losses late in Shanahan's career.

We didn't have many. That's the problem.

Last year's collapse featured two losses against terrible teams, and then a blowout against a decent team.

No one was a bigger Shanahan fan than me, around here. Don't go down that road. I just agreed with Bowlen that it was time to move on.

I'd imagine that with perspective, even Shanahan probably would agree that it was a logical move. Both parties will have future success.

broncosteven
12-27-2009, 07:23 PM
Seriously, how many rushing yards did the Broncos have today? Anyone know?

70 total.

C.Buckhalter 5 42 8.4 33 0
K.Moreno 9 18 2.0 6 0
K.Orton 1 7 7.0 7 0
B.Marshall 2 3 1.5 7 0
P.Hillis 1 0 0.0 0 0

Plus we had a grand total of 189 passing yards. Marshall had a 4.9 yard avg which means the routes were extremely short. It would be nice to see Moreno run for 4.9 avg not our top WR.

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 07:24 PM
Oh, ****... well, McNabb is a top 7 QB... if not better. Of course you take a guy like that.

I'm just saying that of the things we probably CAN fix right now, the QB spot is the toughest... considering the statistical production from the position has actually been very good.

We need better blockers up front, and another play-maker on both sides of the ball.

That's the type of thing you CAN do in one off-season.

I also wonder if Brandstater is a potential option down the road.

Either way, I think if Orton is our guy... we still have a chance. It's not that we couldn't improve, but I do believe we can be successful with him at QB until a better option presents itself.

I agree 100% with this. QB and DL are the hardest positions in football to improve. Orton doesn't beat us. I said on another post that unless we find a guy that gives us a better chance to win NEXT YEAR, then we shouldn't make a move. I view that scenario as about 1/25. There aren't that many good QBs on the market every year, and 1st round QBs are a crap shoot.

Bronx33
12-27-2009, 07:25 PM
70 total.

C.Buckhalter 5 42 8.4 33 0
K.Moreno 9 18 2.0 6 0
K.Orton 1 7 7.0 7 0
B.Marshall 2 3 1.5 7 0
P.Hillis 1 0 0.0 0 0


Piss poor play calls they were with absolutley zero blocking.

misturanderson
12-27-2009, 07:26 PM
Because it is schizophrenic. It was designed as a mobile ZB OL, but they are being required to behave as a Power OL. With mediocre RBs last yr it did far better with rushing. It has to do with coaching decisions, not the line. If the line were to be used in the manner it was designed it would easily be one of the better OLs in the league.

We have always struggled with short yardage running with these 6th round pick lines, particularly in the red zone (its seems you may not rememeber last year too well) because small, mobile linemen suck at driving defenders off of the line and opening holes in a short field.

bloodsunday
12-27-2009, 07:26 PM
You could put Kyle Orton behind the 89 49ers line and he would still suck.

Look dude, I'm not like you. I won't attack your fandom for calling a spade a spade. Kyle Orton is not the answer at QB. He never was. I am scared to death that McDaniels cannot see this or allow himself to admit this and this type of offense will continue.

Hopefully he swallows his pride and grabs another QB.

You are making some horrible comparisons here. The 89 49ers were not built during the salary cap era. Secondly, I don't think it's fair to say how Orton would have faired in that era, the game has changed a lot in 20 years. Orton may have limitations, but he is a winner. In that way, he's the anti-Cutler.

Merlin
12-27-2009, 07:27 PM
Orton has been an above average QB this year in every measurable way. So, when you say "he'd suck behind a great line," you're just not making any sense. He's been decent behind a pretty bad line.
Actually this is a very good line. With the right QB it is an excellent line, and they have proven it in the past. Your knee-jerk need to defend Orton's weaknesses leads you to some very bizare conclusions. Orton needs a great line the likes of the KC line under Green to become a truly successful QB. It is not the line that makes him look VERY mediocre at times, it his serious limitations that make the line look mediocre at times. That being said, it is obvious that Orton has more in common with McD's view of the football world that this OL; therefore it is the OL that needs to change.

ZONA
12-27-2009, 07:28 PM
You could put Kyle Orton behind the 89 49ers line and he would still suck.

Look dude, I'm not like you. I won't attack your fandom for calling a spade a spade. Kyle Orton is not the answer at QB. He never was. I am scared to death that McDaniels cannot see this or allow himself to admit this and this type of offense will continue.

Hopefully he swallows his pride and grabs another QB.

It has nothing to do with McD swallowing his pride. Take it from the beginning. Cutler was traded away. There goes your previous starting QB. We asked for 2 first round picks and we got them and Orton was a throw in on the deal. He only had 1 year on his contract so it was virtually risk free for the Broncos to accept Orton in that deal. We gave Orton a chance to see what he could do and it just wasn't/isn't enough. Nobody can say that McD thinks Orton is the long term answer otherwise we would have already signed him to a longer contract. McD drafted a "project" QB in Brandstater and that's it for this year. There was much to rebuild, starting with maybe one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL and a special teams unit that was almost as bad. Nobody can say our defense wasn't better then last year, because it clearly is much improved over last year. Special teams, well, just a little better. And with a new QB and new offensive system, the offense had some good moments and bad moments, as to be expected during it's first year. There is nothing that I see which says to me that McD loves Orton and wants him here long term. I don't think Orton has proved he deserves to be here long term, so we shall wait and see. But the truth is that Orton was a throw in, playing on a 1 year deal so the Broncos had no risk at all there and now moving forward we can see what the QB position holds for the Broncos. I for one don't think McD is just going to grind it out with Orton. At the least I expect the starter QB to be open for competition next year. By Orton, if we sign him to any deal at all, Brandstater, maybe another FA brought in or even another drafted QB, either later in the draft or early.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 07:30 PM
...small, mobile linemen suck at driving defenders off of the line and opening holes in a short field.

Yep, and they also get worn down and can't always protect the QB adequately on obvious passing downs. We need to get bigger and better up front.

Merlin
12-27-2009, 07:30 PM
(its seems you may not rememeber last year too well).
I'm sorry, are you actually going to use last yr as a reference? The 7 IR RB yr? Although I can see your point, I don't necessarily agree with it. And that is not what is troubling the running game this yr. It compares poorly to last yr, and when you consider the RB talent both yrs. then there is little point in debating.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:31 PM
Actually this is a very good line. With the right QB it is an excellent line, and they have proven it in the past. Your knee-jerk need to defend Orton's weaknesses.

What "weaknesses of Orton's" have I defended?

Are you even reading the posts?

I'll say it again... I think he DOES have limitations. Obviously. I'm just not sure we have a better option right now, and he's been an above average QB this year.

That's vastly different than being "quick to defend his flaws." He's got flaws.
They're pretty self-evident. He also does some things well.

As for the line, you're also incorrect. First off, this isn't even the same line as last year. We have a different starter at G an RT, and our center looks like he got old in a hurry. We're also running a different system.

So, we need guys that can hold blocks. This isn't last year's line or last year's scheme.

crawdad
12-27-2009, 07:31 PM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.

Well put, Brian, I could not agree with you more!

TonyR
12-27-2009, 07:32 PM
It has nothing to do with McD swallowing his pride.

Agree, I don't understand this line of thinking either. McD hasn't tied himself to Orton because he didn't trade Cutler for Orton. And who do people think we're going to get in the offseason that's better? Jason Campbell?

titan
12-27-2009, 07:35 PM
"Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team. "

I'm proud the way the broncos bounced back today, too. No way this loss is as brutal as last week's in my book. Losing at home as a big favorite in the last seconds to the hated Raiders was the worse home loss since the AFC Championship loss to the Steelers. This one today was frustrating, yes, but the Broncos weren't expected to win and almost pulled it off.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:42 PM
"Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team. "

I'm proud the way the broncos bounced back today, too. No way this loss is as brutal as last week's in my book. Losing at home as a big favorite in the last seconds to the hated Raiders was the worse home loss since the AFC Championship loss to the Steelers. This one today was frustrating, yes, but the Broncos weren't expected to win and almost pulled it off.

I'm not sure why this week almost felt worse than last for me. Maybe just because we came so close and aside from some idiotic penalties, played gritty ball in the comeback. I felt like last week we made more mistakes against a division rival playing their SB. This game was just such a tease. Looked like a blowout, and then looked like we had momentum for the win.

Ugh.

I still think this game is showing us a light at the end of the tunnel, though. We shall see.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:44 PM
Agree, I don't understand this line of thinking either. McD hasn't tied himself to Orton because he didn't trade Cutler for Orton. And who do people think we're going to get in the offseason that's better? Jason Campbell?

Orton is far and away the best QB option in free agency. So, if people want to sign the best QB out there, that's the guy... like it or not.

Now, what we could do is draft a middle round guy and develop him over a couple of years, somewhat like Aaron Rogers situation in Green Bay. (I realize he was drafted higher.)

But, there WILL BE NO quick QB fix that I can see next year, and with a few aging but crucial vets on the squad, McDaniels will go with the guy that gives him the best chance to win right now. Clearly, Orton is that guy.

Gort
12-27-2009, 07:46 PM
"Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team. "

I'm proud the way the broncos bounced back today, too. No way this loss is as brutal as last week's in my book. Losing at home as a big favorite in the last seconds to the hated Raiders was the worse home loss since the AFC Championship loss to the Steelers. This one today was frustrating, yes, but the Broncos weren't expected to win and almost pulled it off.

a loss is still a loss. there's no column in the standings for moral victories.

i'm glad they played themselves back in the game, but the fact remains...

they've lost 7 of 9. after starting 6-0, this is a terrible finish for the year. Popps is wrong to feel good about this season. 8-7 would be ok if this was a .500 team from the get-go. but you win in this league when you have the chance. a 6-0 start is like somebody giving you $20K. you can go and waste it on wine, women, and song and when it's all gone rationalize it away as not ever really having been your money anyway, since it was a gift. or you can use that $20K to earn more money, and eventually come up with a down payment on a house or something. it's much better to put that gift to good use. wasting a 6-0 start really bugs me.

Popps
12-27-2009, 07:53 PM
Popps is wrong to feel good about this season. 8-7 would be ok if this was a .500 team from the get-go. but you win in this league when you have the chance. a 6-0 start .

So, if we would have started off 3-3, you'd be fine?

We caught a few breaks early on... we played a couple games without our starting QB and we hit a tough stretch of the schedule.

I'm not "wrong" about believing we're on the right track. It's just an opinion.

We're improved over last year, and considering how much turnover we've had, that's a major achievement, even if we got more W's in the first half of the year.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 08:00 PM
I was very proud of the fight in this team today. I was despondant when we were down 17 points, and angry about it. But listening to them fighting back (I was on the road driving home from Christmas with the in-laws), I couldn't help but be proud of how this team always seems to find itself in position to win the game at the end.

I'm not proud of what may be the worst collapse in team history. That part is very disturbing to me. But that's a different subject. What makes me proud is that this team doesn't have any quit in it, regardless of what happened the last week.

There are aspects of the big picture that I'm a little disappointed about, but that's more front office stuff. The guys on the field and the sidelines should be congratulated for their fire and determination, even if the wins aren't showing up right now.

Gort
12-27-2009, 08:05 PM
So, if we would have started off 3-3, you'd be fine?

We caught a few breaks early on... we played a couple games without our starting QB and we hit a tough stretch of the schedule.

I'm not "wrong" about believing we're on the right track. It's just an opinion.

We're improved over last year, and considering how much turnover we've had, that's a major achievement, even if we got more W's in the first half of the year.

if we started 3-3 and ended 8-8 or 9-7, i'd wouldn't feel like we wasted a golden opportunity. i think it's wrong to feel good about the squandering a 6-0 start. whether we have the right coach or right QB or Hillis breaks off 2K in our system are all different questions. we got a gift this year. the football gods said... "here you go McD, 6 wins to start the season, now go and make a name for yourself". and McD responded by saying, "thanks, but no thanks". not trying to blame McD. don't misunderstand my point. it's just that McD shouldn't have expected that 6-0 start to lead to an automatic AFC West crown. for a couple of games there, it was like watching a guy who refused to see that what he was doing wasn't working. he just tried the same thing over and over and over again with poor results (BAL, PIT). i would have liked to have seen this team respond better to their 6-0 start than with a 2-7 slide. i blame that on coaching. even if the talent is not all in place, you have to find a way to win @ WAS and against OAK.

Broncoman13
12-27-2009, 08:13 PM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.


I had to check the date of this post...TWICE. This game was nothing in the heartbreak category when you compare it to last week's loss to the Faid... at home. A chance to be a game in front of everyone this week with a game advantage in conf record (two games ahead of the Steelers and Texans). You're becoming a friggin moron with your head shoved so far up McD's ass that he decides what you get to eat.

This loss was nothing in comparison. NOTHING when compared to last week's loss.

On the road. Against a team with a 10-4 record and playing some of the best football in the entire league. And then you have the Faid. Guess what phucko, they just got flat out whoooped by the Browns. CLEVELAND.

You've become unbearable this year. Sad, b/c you used to be a breath of fresh air with your takes. Now, you're a spin master that cannot look at things objectively for fear of looking like you're going back or having to admit you're wrong or something. Congratulations, you just became Lex but on the pro-McD side of the fence... and both of your "camps" are wrong. There have been a ton of mistakes by McD and Co. But there have been a ton of positives which gives me and several other "grounded" fans a lot of hope for the future.

Tell the good Popps to come back, I miss reading his intelligent takes.

baja
12-27-2009, 08:19 PM
bingo! THIS SAME MORON (POOPS) WOULD BE CALLING FOR SHANNY'S HEAD AGAIN THIS YEAR IF THE SAME COLLAPSE WAS HAPPENING UNDER MIKE'S WATCH--HIS HYPOCRISY KNOWS NO BOUNDS!

I've been posting here for 9 years and have made over 30,000 posts (some good some not so much) and this is the first time I've said this;

For the good of this board you should be banned.

Broncoman13
12-27-2009, 08:19 PM
a loss is still a loss. there's no column in the standings for moral victories.

i'm glad they played themselves back in the game, but the fact remains...

they've lost 7 of 9. after starting 6-0, this is a terrible finish for the year. Popps is wrong to feel good about this season. 8-7 would be ok if this was a .500 team from the get-go. but you win in this league when you have the chance. a 6-0 start is like somebody giving you $20K. you can go and waste it on wine, women, and song and when it's all gone rationalize it away as not ever really having been your money anyway, since it was a gift. or you can use that $20K to earn more money, and eventually come up with a down payment on a house or something. it's much better to put that gift to good use. wasting a 6-0 start really bugs me.


This is a good point and good analogy. I'd say that we were lucky to be 6-0 and were more the .500 team we have shown to be.

Should have lost the Bengals game and the Pats game and Cowboys game could have very easily went either way. But then, we could have just as easily won the Faid game last week and the Iggle came today. I think we are what our record shows, a slightly above average team... but a team with a lot of hope going forward and a staff that has really got a good look at what they have on the roster. They will make the moves necessary to make the offense more productive and the defense more stingy. If we get into the playoffs, GREAT. If we don't, it will be disappointing b/c we really only had to win one game in the past 3 weeks and couldn't get it done... again, why the Faid loss hurts so bad.

Broncoman13
12-27-2009, 08:23 PM
I've been posting here for 7 years and have made over 30,000 posts (some good some not so much) and this is the first time I've said this;

For the good of this board you should be banned.

I agree... start the poll.

Secondly, there is a big difference from a first year head coach having a collapse and a coach that has done the same thing consistently for the past several years. Shanny will be my favorite coach for a long time, not sure anybody will ever replace him there... but his message had grown stale and it was time for him to move on and for us to move on. Calling Popps out on that one doesn't make much sense to me. Is he right, sure... but a lot of us, even the Shanny lovers would be calling him out for another collapse. 60% roster turnover, McD gets a pass from me and most fans. If it wasn't for the Cutler debacle and the Marshall mess he'd be even more popular. Some "fans" (if you want to call them that) won't soon forgive him for those thigns.

Broncoman13
12-27-2009, 08:24 PM
What "weaknesses of Orton's" have I defended?

Are you even reading the posts?

I'll say it again... I think he DOES have limitations. Obviously. I'm just not sure we have a better option right now, and he's been an above average QB this year.

That's vastly different than being "quick to defend his flaws." He's got flaws.
They're pretty self-evident. He also does some things well.

As for the line, you're also incorrect. First off, this isn't even the same line as last year. We have a different starter at G an RT, and our center looks like he got old in a hurry. We're also running a different system.

So, we need guys that can hold blocks. This isn't last year's line or last year's scheme.

I'll bet you a Broncos jersey we'll end up with a new QB next year. You on?

rastaman
12-27-2009, 08:28 PM
I'd be more with you if i saw any reason to get excited about this team, but i dont see them on the road to improvement. Too many holes at important positions.

I see reason for hope and further improvement on the Defensive side of ball so long a Nolan is the DC for the next 4 years. In the 2010 & 2011 drafts McD should concentrate Denver's picks on the Defensive side of the ball where we need the most help. Then use FA to address the needs on the offensive side of the ball.

As for Orton future, McD needs to find a veteran QB in FA that has been in the league for 4 years plus already. Even it means giving up a draft picks in 010 or 011. We have all seen that Orton can only get you so far.

Broncomutt
12-27-2009, 08:31 PM
This team has too many Kenny McKinleys and not enough Brian Dawkins.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Agree, I don't understand this line of thinking either. McD hasn't tied himself to Orton because he didn't trade Cutler for Orton. And who do people think we're going to get in the offseason that's better? Jason Campbell?

Jeff Garcia--a free agent.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 08:34 PM
I've been posting here for 9 years and have made over 30,000 posts (some good some not so much) and this is the first time I've said this;

For the good of this board you should be banned.

Some on this board do not run from FACTS....but the majority are fanboys like you............FACE IT--we are collapsing again--and the strength of the core of this TEAM is OLD...OLDER than DIRT.

broncocalijohn
12-27-2009, 08:35 PM
I've been posting here for 9 years and have made over 30,000 posts (some good some not so much) and this is the first time I've said this;

For the good of this board you should be banned.

I am sure we can find a few lurkers with under 40 posts that can make this same request. Baja, do you know what time it is?

It is POLL TIME!!!!
(bells, whistles, etc sounds here)

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 08:36 PM
I agree... start the poll.

Secondly, there is a big difference from a first year head coach having a collapse and a coach that has done the same thing consistently for the past several years. Shanny will be my favorite coach for a long time, not sure anybody will ever replace him there... but his message had grown stale and it was time for him to move on and for us to move on. Calling Popps out on that one doesn't make much sense to me. Is he right, sure... but a lot of us, even the Shanny lovers would be calling him out for another collapse. 60% roster turnover, McD gets a pass from me and most fans. If it wasn't for the Cutler debacle and the Marshall mess he'd be even more popular. Some "fans" (if you want to call them that) won't soon forgive him for those thigns.

2 and 7 in his last nine--likely 2 for 8--that is RAMS, CHIEFS, BROWNS territory---if you are pkay with that type of mediocrity--GO BECOME A FAN OF THOSE TEAMS. I realize that my Broncos have been led astray--it will only take one more season for Bowlen to realize it too.......

Popps
12-27-2009, 08:58 PM
I've been posting here for 9 years and have made over 30,000 posts (some good some not so much) and this is the first time I've said this;

For the good of this board you should be banned.

He's been banned once. It'll happen again. Taco is pretty tolerant of trash, but this guy even has Taco fed up.

Popps
12-27-2009, 08:59 PM
This team has too many Kenny McKinleys and not enough Brian Dawkins.

Man, I like McKinley's ability but dude... how do you just freeze and stand there on a return. No wonder he got hurt.

We haven't heard the last of him, though. Just have a feeling.

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2009, 09:00 PM
There was no dignity in that loss. After losing at home to the Raiders, this team has proven to be a failure. there will be no playoffs. Epic failure.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:04 PM
There was no dignity in that loss. After losing at home to the Raiders, this team has proven to be a failure. there will be no playoffs. Epic failure.

6-0 and home for the playoffs. Well PLAYED GUTLESS DRUNK, WELL PLAYED...........FIRE McGenius 1 YEAR EARLIER THAN YOU WILL ANYWAY. Too many name coaches out there to not jump in...........going to be 2 for our last 10--that is raheem morris , eric mangini territory--and MCFAILURE had MUCH MORE TALENT TO WORK WITH.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 09:08 PM
6-0 and home for the playoffs. Well PLAYED GUTLESS DRUNK, WELL PLAYED...........FIRE McGenius 1 YEAR EARLIER THAN YOU WILL ANYWAY. Too many name coaches out there to not jump in...........going to be 2 for our last 10--that is raheem morris , eric mangini territory--and MCFAILURE had MUCH MORE TALENT TO WORK WITH.

Eh you never know. Might beat KC and squeak in anyway.

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 09:09 PM
I really wish McD would throw the ball up the field. How does a QB throw the ball 41 times and finish with 189 yards? Marshall gets 8 catches for only 39 yards? That pass on second down that went for minus three yards hurt. Yeah we made the FG to tie the game but we had them on the ropes. A TD would have ended that game and we come out throwing screen passes.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:09 PM
Eh you never know. Might beat KC and squeak in anyway.

IF we get in I will be ecstatic--but we won't.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:10 PM
I really wish McD would throw the ball up the field. How does a QB throw the ball 41 times and finish with 189 yards? Marshall gets 8 catches for only 39 yards? That pass on second down that went for minus three yards hurt. Yeah we made the FG to tie the game but we had them on the ropes. A TD would have ended that game and we come out throwing screen passes.

41 times and 189 yards? YUCK.

baja
12-27-2009, 09:12 PM
He's been banned once. It'll happen again. Taco is pretty tolerant of trash, but this guy even has Taco fed up.

Well I don't come here that much anymore and it's posters like him that keep me away.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 09:12 PM
Jeff Garcia--a free agent.

You're going to have to do better than that.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:13 PM
Well I don't come here that much anymore and it's posters like him that keep me away.

I promise to log in daily--now stay away--permanently.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:14 PM
You're going to have to do better than that.

Kyle Orton isn't better than Jeff Garcia.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 09:14 PM
I really wish McD would throw the ball up the field. How does a QB throw the ball 41 times and finish with 189 yards? Marshall gets 8 catches for only 39 yards? That pass on second down that went for minus three yards hurt. Yeah we made the FG to tie the game but we had them on the ropes. A TD would have ended that game and we come out throwing screen passes.

I'm sure he would like to. He can't, plain and simple. Completely handcuffed himself with a QB who can't make those throws with any kind of regularity. He did the best with what he had. Total shame that Royal was completely lost in the mix, utter waste of talent.

Need to bring in a sharp kid with a gun, I bet we'd all be amazed at how awesome Sheffler and Royal and the run game look again when they have someone throwing the ball that the defenses have to honor down the field.

TonyR
12-27-2009, 09:15 PM
41 times and 189 yards? YUCK.

I agree, not good, but the low average is made worse by the fact that we throw short passes in lieu of runs because we can't run the football. We had one decent running gain all day, Buckhalter's 33 yarder. Take that away and we had 17 carries for 37 yards. With numbers like that it's a miracle we were even in the game.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 09:16 PM
Kyle Orton isn't better than Jeff Garcia.

Maybe not, but Garcia is really old.

I'd like to see Gradkowski get a shot with a decent team, he is a fighter, has an arm, can move around, has a knack for making big plays, and is sitting behind JaMonstrosity Russell.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:17 PM
I agree, not good, but the low average is made worse by the fact that we throw short passes in lieu of runs because we can't run the football. We had one decent running gain all day, Buckhalter's 33 yarder. Take that away and we had 17 carries for 37 yards. With numbers like that it's a miracle we were even in the game.

Turner and dennison will more than likely not be back--sad thing is--I wish McD would take his PATS running system and leave instead--that ZBS has been effective in Denver for 14 seasons........I am shocked at how bad Moreno has looked--SHOCKED.

baja
12-27-2009, 09:17 PM
I promise to log in daily--now stay away--permanently.

I'm thinking about it, you and like minded posters make this little life pleasure not so pleasurable.

broncofan7
12-27-2009, 09:19 PM
I'm thinking about it, you and like minded posters make this little life pleasure not so pleasurable.

but before you go--give me the location of your magical beans so I can feed my family when the USA collapses.........

Popps
12-27-2009, 09:20 PM
I'm thinking about it, you and like minded posters make this little life pleasure not so pleasurable.

Yea, but you should post more. People enjoy your posts.

If you let the roaches take over, it'll just be the roaches, eventually.

This place does tend to run off its better posters, but some have stuck it out. You're one of them.

Some people use ignore. I just prefer to step on the bugs and squish them, myself.

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 09:20 PM
I'm sure he would like to. He can't, plain and simple. Completely handcuffed himself with a QB who can't make those throws with any kind of regularity. He did the best with what he had. Total shame that Royal was completely lost in the mix, utter waste of talent.

Need to bring in a sharp kid with a gun, I bet we'd all be amazed at how awesome Sheffler and Royal and the run game look again when they have someone throwing the ball that the defenses have to honor down the field.

LOL man get off it. He isn't the greatest QB but he has made throws down field before.

strafen
12-27-2009, 09:22 PM
Who's the troll? You knew you would get flamed yet you made the post anyway.

Just STFU and go away.I thought for a change popps was going to post something intelligent, until I read the last sentence.
That just says everything we need to know about this moron!

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 09:22 PM
Kyle Orton isn't better than Jeff Garcia.

Garcia was cut twice this year.

colonelbeef
12-27-2009, 09:26 PM
LOL man get off it. He isn't the greatest QB but he has made throws down field before.

When he has tons of time and plants his feet, he can get it 45-50 yards, sure. But then so can pretty much any college QB, as well as many high school kids.

I don't think he is the worst in the league either, and I really have come to appreciate the guy in a way, but I do think that his abilities (or lack thereof) were completely exploited by defenses this year, and the run game suffered as a result.

DBroncos4life
12-27-2009, 09:31 PM
When he has tons of time and plants his feet, he can get it 45-50 yards, sure. But then so can pretty much any college QB, as well as many high school kids.

I don't think he is the worst in the league either, and I really have come to appreciate the guy in a way, but I do think that his abilities (or lack thereof) were completely exploited by defenses this year, and the run game suffered as a result.

The problem was they didn't blitz us this game. I think we game planned for the blitz and we didn't adjust to them not sending them. By that point in the game we could have passed the ball 7 yards down field instead of at the line of scrimmage.

broncobum6162
12-27-2009, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=go_broncos;2691209]POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

I see a team with alot more fight in it. Last years team quit in the last game. This team always battles

So true, we have battled (as in the Indy and todays game) but we haven't come to the point to where we can make the crucial plays both offensively and defensively to win the game. Example: Offense(whole season) Defense(Last drive of the game)

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:19 PM
I thought for a change popps was going to post something intelligent, until I read the last sentence.
That just says everything we need to know about this moron!

Wow drag-queen. Siding with the guy attacking little kids, huh?

But, I guess you're having a pretty bad day. Your boyfriend got in a game and couldn't pick up 2 ****ing inches on third down.

Luckily, Moreno was there to show him how to do it on the next play.

Pathetic.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 10:22 PM
Wow drag-queen. Siding with the guy attacking little kids, huh?

But, I guess you're having a pretty bad day. Your boyfriend got in a game and couldn't pick up 2 ****ing inches on third down.

Luckily, Moreno was there to show him how to do it on the next play.

Pathetic.



Moreno got a block from Hillis on that play.

bronco militia
12-27-2009, 10:24 PM
handing off to the upback in short yardage is stupid...how many times have you ever seen that work? he was hit in the backfield (again) for crying out loud

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:26 PM
Moreno got a block from Hillis on that play.

Well, at least he did that right.

Good for him.

hambone13
12-27-2009, 10:32 PM
Well, at least he did that right.

Good for him.

Hilarious!Hilarious! I guess "Run it up the gut" was the right play to call on Hillis' only carry of the night. Like that wasn't obvious to a defense.

strafen
12-27-2009, 10:34 PM
Wow drag-queen. Siding with the guy attacking little kids, huh?

But, I guess you're having a pretty bad day. Your boyfriend got in a game and couldn't pick up 2 ****ing inches on third down.

Luckily, Moreno was there to show him how to do it on the next play.

Pathetic.He's not attacking kids. He just brought to your attention the fact that you rather be posting garbage out of your rear end while neglecting your kid.
That's what he said. You just put a different spin on the actual statement and now you want to pass it as a fact.
No surprise there, knowing that that's exactly how you roll

BTW. Your 12th pick overall wonderboy got 18 freakin and pathetic yards in 9 carries. His avg now is at 3.8 ypc
Nuff said!

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:36 PM
Your 12th pick overall wonderboy got 18 freakin and pathetic yards in 9 carries. His avg now is at 3.8 ypc
Nuff said!

Oh, wait... we're changing the subject now?

Gosh, I thought were were talking about how awesome Hillis was?

Remember all of those promises you made me about how he'd carry 11 guys 3 yards for a first down?

Turns out, he couldn't gain an inch when we needed it.

But, Moreno could.

Then again, we already knew that Moreno was the better short-yardage runner. So, it wasn't much of a surprise.

Keep changing topics, though. You'll settle on a new campaign eventually.

go_broncos
12-27-2009, 10:37 PM
As i said, there is nothing to be excited with this team.
Our QB is a game manager, o-line and d-line needs to be upgrated.
Defense is old. Moreno sucks. Buck is always injured. we need to get a RB that consistently convert short yardages.
Also, Mcd playcalling sucks..

WE WON 2 OUT OF 9 GAMES..I don't know how you are excited about it.

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:39 PM
He's not attacking kids. He just brought to your attention the fact that you rather be posting garbage out of your rear end while neglecting your kid.

:rofl:

Riiiight.

She's sitting on my lap right now laughing, watching Kipper the Dog.

Either that, or she's laughing at your ****ty posts.


Anyway, you've embarrassed yourself enough here. Best move onto your next forum.

Taco John
12-27-2009, 10:44 PM
Oh, wait... we're changing the subject now?

Gosh, I thought were were talking about how awesome Hillis was?

Remember all of those promises you made me about how he'd carry 11 guys 3 yards for a first down?

Turns out, he couldn't gain an inch when we needed it.

But, Moreno could.

Then again, we already knew that Moreno was the better short-yardage runner. So, it wasn't much of a surprise.

Keep changing topics, though. You'll settle on a new campaign eventually.

That was the last play I watched before I had to get on the road, and I think your analysis (if you can call it that) is about as shallow as a bird bath.

You're right that Hillis wasn't able to get the yard we needed on that play, but the fact that he was in on the next play keyed people on him. He ended up blowing open a hole for Moreno while drawing attention from him at the same time.

Hillis's contribution in that set was a large part of why Moreno was able to score there. We should have been using him like this all season long - only actually getting him more carries and allowing him to warm up to the contact - instead of just sending him in for a solo shot at it.

But I don't expect you to be fair here. The wind isn't blowing in Hillis's direction right now. But when it is, you'll be Hillis's biggest fan who told us all so all along.

strafen
12-27-2009, 10:50 PM
:rofl:

Riiiight.

She's sitting on my lap right now laughing, watching Kipper the Dog.

Either that, or she's laughing at your ****ty posts.


Anyway, you've embarrassed yourself enough here. Best move onto your next forum.Admit you tried to discredit what the guy wanted to tell you, and that you spun it around to tell everybody here that what we've read from the guy is not what he said, but it's what you say he said.
Typical. Haven't we've heard this crap from you all the time?
You're the one that should be embarrassed by trying to insult the intelligence of posters here.
You should be embarrassed for showing that the only thing you care about is not presenting facts or intelligent arguments, but to create multi-pages threads to feed your ego.
You should be embarrassed by the fact I continue to call you on your BS, put you in your place and you still won't admit the kind of jackass you really are, instead you continue to ramble on with the crap you spewing endlessly to create multi-page threads that nobody cares about and most importantly the crap that makes as much sense as boobies on a warhog.

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:51 PM
But I don't expect you to be fair here. The wind isn't blowing in Hillis's direction right now. But when it is, you'll be Hillis's biggest fan who told us all so all along.

First off, Hillis was likely blocking today because Larsen was out.

Second, he failed to push the pile an inch.

I'm just waiting for any of the geniuses who claimed we were ****ing up by running (the better short yardage back) Moreno on 3rd and short to show up and admit that it's not the back, it's the line.

You should know me well enough to know that I'm goofing with all of this, a bit.

I like Hillis. I like his skill-set. I wish he could earn more chances to contribute.

But, this comical uprising of Hillis supporters around here was just too much. This notion that he was going to save this team's running game is just nonsense.

He couldn't gain an inch when we needed it. Moreno could.

You think that's going to go unmentioned after weeks of guarantees by Dragqueen and yourself that he was the answer to our short-yardage woes?

Maybe McDaniels knows what he's doing.

Maybe giving the ball to the better short-yardage back on short yardage is the right call, after all.

Popps
12-27-2009, 10:59 PM
Admit you tried to discredit what the guy wanted to tell you, and that you spun it around to tell everybody here that what we've read from the guy is not what he said, but it's what you say he said..

He's banned for breaking the terms of service... again. He's a sad little person.

End of story.


You should be embarrassed by the fact I continue to call you on your BS,.

You promised us Hillis would save this team, and he failed when given the chance.

Outside of your Hillis love affair, you've offered nothing else, here.

create multi-page threads

Says the dude with 1200 posts about Hillis in one thread.

Actually, the response to this thread has been pretty pleasant. Some nice rep and some nice replies.

Sorry a little positivity hurts you so bad, kid.

Anyway... you're pretty much done here, right?

strafen
12-27-2009, 11:11 PM
End of story.



You promised us Hillis would save this team, and he failed when given the chance.





Says the dude with 1200 posts about Hillis in one thread.



Be careful, people may actual believe that I have 1200 posts, and that I actually promised Hillis will save this team. Or that the guy has been banned
Just another spin by popps to try to win arguments he can't win.
Nice try. Your credibility aproval must be in the low single digit by now...

And to respond to your reverse child psychology, yes, I'm done here.
I feel dumber now by arguing with you and not being able to get the time I spent doing it back...though it was somewhat worthy to put you in your place once again.
See ya'! :thumbsup:

Popps
12-27-2009, 11:22 PM
I feel dumber now by arguing with you and not being able to get the time I spent doing it back:

You should just feel dumb about your posts, in general. That's plenty.

broncocalijohn
12-27-2009, 11:25 PM
handing off to the upback in short yardage is stupid...how many times have you ever seen that work? he was hit in the backfield (again) for crying out loud

and got back to the line of scrimmage (and maybe a little more). If he doesnt keep turning his feet, he loses at least a yard and we kick the field goal. Hillis did everything he could with that small of a space to work with.

TomServo
12-28-2009, 12:36 AM
ok, for everyone who is happy with our 9-7 or 8-8 season? ask your self, spot the broncos a 6-0 start and ask yourself again.
we lost to the raiders at home. beating the chiefs isnt exactly a sure thing.
p.s. watching knowshon celebrate his td after his 2.? per carry the last two weeks even made my kids say WTH? what an a ss

Popps
12-28-2009, 12:42 AM
ok, for everyone who is happy with our 9-7 or 8-8 season? ask your self, spot the broncos a 6-0 start and ask yourself again.
we lost to the raiders at home. beating the chiefs isnt exactly a sure thing.
p.s. watching knowshon celebrate his td after his 2.? per carry the last two weeks even made my kids say WTH? what an a ss

Moreno ran to the sidelines and slapped hands with a teammate. He didn't showboat in the endzone or taunt the fans. I don't see how that makes him an "ass."

Agree that his production should be better. We've simply got to block better, and we need a healthy Buck out there. With this line, we simply have to have a back that hits the hole more quickly. They're a nice combo, but Buck can't stay on the field.

Anyway, it is what it is. We'll be addressing the line this off-season, for sure. Hopefully we'll be able to stop the man-handling we're seeing of our guys up front.

Jason in LA
12-28-2009, 12:43 AM
:kiddingme :notthissh

houghtam
12-28-2009, 12:55 AM
This message is hidden because broncofan7 is on your ignore list.


Just do it...it will make all your posting lives better. This guy is a sh*t stain.

Rep. This board is so much better without broncofan7.

TomServo
12-28-2009, 01:02 AM
knowshon looked to have a pre-meditated dance-routine to me, i was kinda disgusted and already deleted the game from my DVR. the kid just doesnt have the performance to match his attitude.
like i said 9-7 or even 8-8 sounded good back in august. but not when we were spotted(spotted ourselves)a 6-0 start.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 01:14 AM
First off, Hillis was likely blocking today because Larsen was out.

Second, he failed to push the pile an inch.

I'm just waiting for any of the geniuses who claimed we were ****ing up by running (the better short yardage back) Moreno on 3rd and short to show up and admit that it's not the back, it's the line.

You should know me well enough to know that I'm goofing with all of this, a bit.

I like Hillis. I like his skill-set. I wish he could earn more chances to contribute.

But, this comical uprising of Hillis supporters around here was just too much. This notion that he was going to save this team's running game is just nonsense.

He couldn't gain an inch when we needed it. Moreno could.

You think that's going to go unmentioned after weeks of guarantees by Dragqueen and yourself that he was the answer to our short-yardage woes?

Maybe McDaniels knows what he's doing.

Maybe giving the ball to the better short-yardage back on short yardage is the right call, after all.



Your takes on Hillis show that you're more interested in being right than you are about winning. When Hillis makes a difference on a touchdown drive, you're more interested in blasting him for what he didn't do, than what he did do to contribute to that touchdown. You just want to be right, and no matter what the guy does right, you're looking for what he does wrong.

Nobody should be giving your analysis on Hillis any creedence. It's tainted by your desire to protect Josh from criticism and your personal burning desire to be right.

Hillis was instrumental on that touchdown, even with being stuffed on his solo opportunity.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 01:18 AM
Popps prove me wrong. Show me the single criticsm you've made on Moreno's decision making dance behind the line of scrimmage. You know - the one that neither Buckhalter or Hillis have.

Don't even bother. Everybody knows that it doesn't exist. Your interest is in protecting Josh from mean people and proving yourself right, not doing any sort of balanced analysis.

Popps
12-28-2009, 01:23 AM
Your takes on Hillis show that you're more interested in being right than you are about winning.

Again, Taco... you're brighter than that.

My cracks about Hillis are simply to drive home what should have been an obvious point, in that Hillis wasn't the answer to our short-yardage problems. Moreno is a better short yardage back. All today represented was another example. We need to block better, period.

As for McDaniels, there's nothing to "deflect" from him. Clearly, he's made the right call on who to hand the ball to in those situations. Again, I suppose that's why he's making those calls and not you.

I'm happy Hillis made a block. That's what he's paid to do. I'm not sure he would have had the chance if Larsen was healthy, but at least he made the best of his blocking chances, if not his running chance.

I like Hills. I hope he contributes more in the future. But, today was just more proof that you Hillis Conspiracy-types are just talking some silly ****.

Popps
12-28-2009, 01:24 AM
. Your interest is in protecting Josh from mean people

No, just doofs who claim that starting inferior players will make the team better.

You spent weeks telling us Hillis was the short-yardage savior.

He failed.

Moreno cleaned up his mess.

Anything else?

TomServo
12-28-2009, 01:27 AM
when my 12 year old boys see number 27 in the backfield and say "o No" thats a problem. like i said. his little sideline celebration even made them say What?
i dont hate the guy and i want him to pound first downs,(regardless if i think he was a big waste as a #1) hes just a MCd blown #1

Taco John
12-28-2009, 01:48 AM
No, just doofs who claim that starting inferior players will make the team better.

You spent weeks telling us Hillis was the short-yardage savior.

He failed.

Moreno cleaned up his mess.

Anything else?


You're giving Hillis one solo carry to judge? That's just weak. And then when that carry turns out to key defenders on him on the very next run and springs Moreno for a touchdown you use it against him!?

Dude, please. Just shut up and save me from being embarassed for you. Quit pretending to be some sort of football knowledge god with such weak stuff.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 01:50 AM
and again...

Popps prove me wrong. Show me the single criticsm you've made on Moreno's decision making dance behind the line of scrimmage. You know - the one that neither Buckhalter or Hillis have.

Don't even bother. Everybody knows that it doesn't exist. Your interest is in protecting Josh from mean people and proving yourself right, not doing any sort of balanced analysis.

You have no credibility in this discussion Popps. You really don't.

Or maybe you do. Show us a single post criticizing the decision making dance. Just one and I'll shut up about it.

There you go Popps. A real chance to shut me up.

Otherwise, maybe you should.

Popps
12-28-2009, 01:53 AM
You're giving Hillis one solo carry to judge?

Quit pretending to be some sort of football knowledge god.

Actually, we can just go with their career short-yardage on 3rd down numbers.
Moreno is better, on a larger sample size, which usually hurts and average.

Today was just another example of a well-established statistical fact.

Knowledge god? Not at all. I can just look at a simple situation and see it for what it is. Hillis isn't carrying the ball more for a reason. One of those reasons is that he's not as good as Moreno on short-yardage.

The other reasons are easy to speculate on, given his inability to win a starting gig, and multiple benching/inactive.

There's no rocket-science needed here, boss.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 01:56 AM
I take it that's a "no, I haven't found an opportunity to even field a single criticism of Moreno, let alone bring up the decision making dance behind the line of scrimmage, but I do have some empty platitudes that I've been trying to shovel out for the last month and a half that I'm hoping people will buy."

That's pretty much what I thought.

Popps
12-28-2009, 01:58 AM
Show us a single post criticizing the decision making dance. Just one and I'll shut up about it.
.

I believe I've said Moreo could run with more authority at times.

Even better, I'll just agree with you. How's that? I definitely think he's still learning how to run in this offense. I think there are times when he could pick a hole and go with it.

Sure. No prob.

How's that?

Still doesn't change the fact that he's a better short-yardage back than Hillis, and it still doesn't mean that our blocking isn't a bigger issue than the back we have handling the ball.

For the record, Hillis didn't have anywhere to run. His line gave him no push. There were guys in his ass before he got to the line of scrimmage.

In other words, he ran into what Moreno runs into on almost every play... with the same results or worse.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 02:02 AM
I believe I've said Moreo could run with more authority at times.

Even better, I'll just agree with you. How's that? I definitely think he's still learning how to run in this offense. I think there are times when he could pick a hole and go with it.

Sure. No prob.

How's that?

Still doesn't change the fact that he's a better short-yardage back than Hillis, and it still doesn't mean that our blocking isn't a bigger issue than the back we have handling the ball.

For the record, Hillis didn't have anywhere to run. His line gave him no push. There were guys in his ass before he got to the line of scrimmage.

In other words, he ran into what Moreno runs into on almost every play... with the same results or worse.


And all I'm saying is that when you give Hillis opportunities to carry the ball and get some contact, he gets stronger on every carry.

Or I can do you one better and post you saying the exact same thing from last season... Ha!:wiggle:

Gort
12-28-2009, 02:04 AM
Actually, we can just go with their career short-yardage on 3rd down numbers.
Moreno is better, on a larger sample size, which usually hurts and average.

Today was just another example of a well-established statistical fact.

Knowledge god? Not at all. I can just look at a simple situation and see it for what it is. Hillis isn't carrying the ball more for a reason. One of those reasons is that he's not as good as Moreno on short-yardage.

The other reasons are easy to speculate on, given his inability to win a starting gig, and multiple benching/inactive.

There's no rocket-science needed here, boss.

i don't want to redirect your fire since you and TJ are currently engaged in battle, but there are 3 things i must correct.

1) nobody said Hillis should be the starter over Moreno. all anybody was suggesting was that Hillis needs to get the ball in his hands a few times a game because he has big play potential.

2) furthering 1) above, the KIND of play McD uses to get the ball in Hillis' hands matters as much as anything. that single handoff today was a joke. who in the league can possibly do anything other than what Hillis did on that play. even Phil Simms felt compelled to wonder why anyone in the NFL runs that play believing in any way that it could pick up a single yard. bad playcalling and not a fair chance for Hillis.

3) you call the people who want Hillis to get more touches a bunch of conspiracy types (and some of them are bit kooky, like rasta who claims to have mimd-melded with McD and know his inner thoughts), but at the same time, you created almost by yourself the idea that Hillis is too dumb to play because you found some pre draft document somewhere on the web. why is that not a conspiracy theory too? you can have pro-Hillis conspiracies, so why can't you have anti-Hillis conspiracies. i have a problem with the idea that Hillis isn't playing because the coaches think he's too dumb. if so, why keep him on the roster. doesn't make sense to me.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 02:07 AM
i don't want to redirect your fire since you and TJ are currently engaged in battle, but there are 3 things i must correct.

1) nobody said Hillis should be the starter over Moreno. all anybody was suggesting was that Hillis needs to get the ball in his hands a few times a game because he has big play potential.

2) furthering 1) above, the KIND of play McD uses to get the ball in Hillis' hands matters as much as anything. that single handoff today was a joke. who in the league can possibly do anything other than what Hillis did on that play. even Phil Simms felt compelled to wonder why anyone in the NFL runs that play believing in any way that it could pick up a single yard. bad playcalling and not a fair chance for Hillis.

3) you call the people who want Hillis to get more touches a bunch of conspiracy types (and some of them are bit kooky, like rasta who claims to have mimd-melded with McD and know his inner thoughts), but at the same time, you created almost by yourself the idea that Hillis is too dumb to play because you found some pre draft document somewhere on the web. why is that not a conspiracy theory too? you can have pro-Hillis conspiracies, so why can't you have anti-Hillis conspiracies. i have a problem with the idea that Hillis isn't playing because the coaches think he's too dumb. if so, why keep him on the roster. doesn't make sense to me.

Bing. Bing. Bing.

A great post all around.

TomServo
12-28-2009, 02:11 AM
lets run hillis up the middle ONE TIME, didnt work? Hillis, sit down while i run Knowsown for 2.5 ypc the rest of the game hes my guy, that knowshon. Im a genius you know after 6-0

Popps
12-28-2009, 02:12 AM
i i have a problem with the idea that Hillis isn't playing because the coaches think he's too dumb. if so, why keep him on the roster. doesn't make sense to me.

Well, for a second year in a row... they either think he's too dumb, or not talented enough. Take your pick.

He's a physically talented, versatile guy. That's probably worth a roster spot.

Terrell Owens is a total ****-up and teams can't sign him fast enough.

The thing is, there has to be a reason. You tell me what it is. I'm just going with normal football rationale.

Taco John
12-28-2009, 02:17 AM
Well, for a second year in a row... they either think he's too dumb, or not talented enough. Take your pick.

He's a physically talented, versatile guy. That's probably worth a roster spot.

Terrell Owens is a total ****-up and teams can't sign him fast enough.

The thing is, there has to be a reason. You tell me what it is. I'm just going with normal football rationale.

The whole "second year in a row" thing only works on very simple minds who think that Shanahan drafted Hillis in the 7th round to compete with Mike Bell and Ryan Torain as a starting half back. I'm embarassed for you every time that you use it.

TomServo
12-28-2009, 02:17 AM
hell i dunno what? Hillis helped us win games last year . he ran for what like 160 yards in one game?

TomServo
12-28-2009, 02:18 AM
Well, for a second year in a row... they either think he's too dumb, or not talented enough. Take your pick.

so say John Riggins was a genius?

Gort
12-28-2009, 02:18 AM
Well, for a second year in a row... they either think he's too dumb, or not talented enough. Take your pick.

He's a physically talented, versatile guy. That's probably worth a roster spot.

Terrell Owens is a total ****-up and teams can't sign him fast enough.

The thing is, there has to be a reason. You tell me what it is. I'm just going with normal football rationale.

i think there is a reason. i don't know what it is. i don't think even McD has been 100% honest in public discussing why. can we both agree to this without jumping to a conclusion that somehow Hillis is too dumb? that's a lazy conclusion that undermines the seriousness of any discussion about him. if Terry Bradshaw could get into the HOF and still not be able to spell CAT if you gave him the C and the T, then clearly there's room in the league for so-called dummies to excel on the field. ;)

colonelbeef
12-28-2009, 06:38 AM
Well, for a second year in a row... they either think he's too dumb, or not talented enough. Take your pick.

He's a physically talented, versatile guy. That's probably worth a roster spot.

Terrell Owens is a total ****-up and teams can't sign him fast enough.

The thing is, there has to be a reason. You tell me what it is. I'm just going with normal football rationale.

People make mistakes, humans make errors in judgment. McDaniels tried to trade for an inferior talent in Matt Cassel, who then sucked to the point where he was benched by the Chiefs despite his huge contract. Bill Belichick went for it on 4th down on his side of the field with Peyton Manning waiting to take the game away from him.

In this case, you are the one making an error in judgment in placing Josh McDaniels beyond reproach and not allowing for the idea that he might simply be making a mistake in inexplicably not using a player who demonstrated ability last year.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 07:43 AM
POOPS..we won 2 games out of 9 and even OAK has more wins in that span.
I feel frustrasted..Losing to Raiders is unacceptable.
I don't see any difference between 08 and 09 team.

Our QB sucks, O-line is not great, old defense..not sure why you are excited.

This is where some people lose credibility. Please, Orton doesn't suck, I know you've seen many, many worse NFL starters I sure have. And the D is not old, and the team is much different than the '08 team.

The rest I agree with.

As for the OP, yes it was really nice to see the heart, something that I haven't seen for a long time.

Old Dude
12-28-2009, 09:57 AM
I think the team has struggled ever since it lost Ryan Harris. Since he went down, we've allowed an average of one additional sack per game, substantially more "hurries", and the average gain per running play has dropped considerably. I've seen worse rookies than Polumbus, but that doesn't change the fact that we went from a guy who was knocking on the door of all pro-status at that spot, to a guy who is basically learning on the job. That hurt. A lot. And it would hurt any NFL team.

The interior line wasn't built as a power blocking unit. That was a big problem in short yardage situations in the past and it's even a bigger problem now that he team uses less zone blocking.

Say all the bad things you want about Cutler (and he has plenty of negatives) but he did have a much better pocket sense than Orton. Orton has contributed to several sacks by stepping out of his protection. It's not one of his strengths. At least he hasn't been throwing it up for grabs. But like any other QB, he's going to be more effective when he has more time to throw.

We can argue all day about Moreno and Hillis and whatnot, but most of the time the holes aren't there, because we are getting outmuscled on the LOS.

All things considered, this offense has succeeded in limiting turnovers and there are times when they can break out with big plays, but it's not consistent and not capable of winning a game against any kind of quality opponent without a great effort by the defense.

The defense has, on the whole, played far better than I expected, going into the season. But the dip in the offense has taken its toll on them as well because the more the O sputters the more pressure we put on the D.

Gimmicks only get you so far. The team needs to get bigger and stronger up front. Everyone knows that and everyone has known that for a long time.

Requiem
12-28-2009, 10:23 AM
Moreno and Hillis would both have much more success if our offensive line was in-tact and not filled with aged ragdolls who cannot block in the new scheme. As the guy above said, losing Harris hurt. Hamilton played like garbage, and was replaced by Hochstein who is an absolute joke. Casey takes at least one **** every week, Kuper has been getting beat consistently and even Clady has had struggles. Our line is just treacherous.

I expected Moreno to have a lot more success than he did this season, but given our line troubles, I can see as to why not. Yes, he has danced in the backfield, but the holes are not opening for him. Moreno not getting tough yards is the same reason why Hillis hasn't been able to. Look at the line. We know these guys can get tough yards, but the line has been abysmal.

I side with Popps thinking that Moreno is the better option in all of this. I don't blame McDaniels and stubborness for Hillis not getting on the field. I blame it on Hillis, and the likelihood that he isn't doing what is necessary week by week to have an increased role on the team. Either way, I really don't care. Hillis has been overhyped for a while now. He was a good fit for what Mike wanted to do, but I'm not sure if he is the "guy" we need at either position, be it FB or HB here.

Hillis can continue to sit on the sidelines looking disinterested in what is going on. He has griped and pouted before. See his past with the Razorbacks. Hopefully he'll be someone Shanahan might be interested in trading for wherever he lands up. That, or he somehow shows up to play and earns a bigger role on our team and can produce. I'll take either, but prefer the former.

Popps
12-28-2009, 10:30 AM
In this case, you are the one making an error in judgment in placing Josh McDaniels beyond reproach and not allowing for the idea that he might simply be making a mistake in inexplicably not using a player who demonstrated ability last year.

Again, Mike Shanahan didn't use him until he was forced to, despite clearly knowing what he did in college. (Running the ball.)

Now, McDaniels has followed suit.

McDaniels isn't remotely "beyond reproach." Not sure how you concocted that.

I'm simply asking for proof that starting an inferior player would make this team better.

We've got clear data that shows Moreno to be a better short-yardage runner.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 10:32 AM
I'd be more with you if i saw any reason to get excited about this team, but i dont see them on the road to improvement. Too many holes at important positions.

What? This Bronco team has a bright future. People always get depressed after tough losses.

Popps
12-28-2009, 10:34 AM
I think the team has struggled ever since it lost Ryan Harris. Since he went down, we've allowed an average of one additional sack per game, substantially more "hurries", and the average gain per running play has dropped considerably. I've seen worse rookies than Polumbus, but that doesn't change the fact that we went from a guy who was knocking on the door of all pro-status at that spot, to a guy who is basically learning on the job. That hurt. A lot. And it would hurt any NFL team.

Gimmicks only get you so far. The team needs to get bigger and stronger up front. Everyone knows that and everyone has known that for a long time.

This.


M
I expected Moreno to have a lot more success than he did this season, but given our line troubles, I can see as to why not. Yes, he has danced in the backfield, but the holes are not opening for him. Moreno not getting tough yards is the same reason why Hillis hasn't been able to. Look at the line. We know these guys can get tough yards, but the line has been abysmal.
.

.... and this.

go_broncos
12-28-2009, 10:37 AM
Again, I don't know how you guys are happy..After bye week, we are playing horrible.
We won 2 out of 9 games.On top of that, we lost to OAK at home.

Mcd's playcalling sucks.he doesn't trust Orton..All we do is dink and dunk.
It works sometimes..But, we need to throw the ball downfield.

Please get a real QB who can stretch the field.

If Mcd keeps sticking with Orton, he will be fired(just like shanny).

missingnumber7
12-28-2009, 11:07 AM
I didn't get to watch the whole game. To be honest after watching the Bmore/Pitt game I was hoping we could just come out and have a good start and play strong. And the incomplete pass on 3rd down that could've gone either way for fumble or inc made me want to shut the TV off. It brought back memories of Plummer. Then we get the call reversed and Berger kicks worse than my 2 yr old...yes kicking away from jackson, but really...30 yards? Fine...the first 4 plays made me think that the team that pissed away the Oakland game was back at it again. But I have to say that I think we showed some heart and some killer instinct. I didn't get to watch any of the second half because of a family obligation and am planning on watching it later this week on replay.

But a few things that stuck out to me was how much Dawkins kept taking himself out of plays by guessing and trying to make hits. I know this is a tag that has been on him from the beginning but this is the first time I think I have actually seen this be the case.

I can see that we have changed from a running team, to a passing team. It was pointed out that teams don't run the sweep much but throw that short 'wr screen' pass to run a sweep and it works well to Marshall. Unfortunately everyone knows how to game plan for it and covers it very well. And in all actuality it only gains as much as an average run play most times anyway.

We don't look down the field. Not even a throw one down there just to keep them honest type throw.

They made fun of Orton for throwing a 5 step drop saying he needed oxygen...not a 7 a 5. We depend on the 3 step crap for a lot...and it does get us somewhere. But it is a huge statement on how little trust there is for or Offensive Line.

Just some observations.

cabronco
12-28-2009, 11:10 AM
Again, I don't know how you guys are happy..After bye week, we are playing horrible.
We won 2 out of 9 games.On top of that, we lost to OAK at home.

Mcd's playcalling sucks.he doesn't trust Orton..All we do is dink and dunk.
It works sometimes..But, we need to throw the ball downfield.

Please get a real QB who can stretch the field.

If Mcd keeps sticking with Orton, he will be fired(just like shanny).


Well they did let Hillis run the ball in short yardage situation, so there's that people will exploit.

Although it didnt give Hillis much of a chance besides running straight forward, prolly like he's coached. Wasnt he like 4' from the line and Moreno was lined up in the back field. It wasnt hard for a defense to read a FB dive play right then. What they should of done is line Hillis in the backfield w/ Moreno on the sidelines, then the back would have the option to hit it up inside or bounce outside. But again questionable playcalling, not that I dont enjoy the up the gut stuffs, or bubble screens, or dink & dunk, because thats what we see majority of the time. The masterminds playbook is apearing as long as his draft list.

Popps
12-28-2009, 02:06 PM
can we both agree to this without jumping to a conclusion that somehow Hillis is too dumb? that's a lazy conclusion that undermines the seriousness of any discussion about him.

I never used the phrase dumb unless it was just goofing around or responding to someone else who used it. So, I agree... I don't think it's an issue of being dumb.

Conversely, the pre-draft scouting report I posted in the other thread does indeed speculate (pre-Broncos/pre-Shanny/McD) that he had issues with the mental side of the game, and issues working with coaches.

That's not to say he's dumb, but you've got a guy who's a real physical specimen who just can't seem to earn a regular gig with two different coaches. (Including both coaches benching or deactivating him.)

So, I'm not saying I know what it is, either. But, clearly... whether its talent or other issues, something is keeping him back, and we have zero evidence that our coach would bench him for non-football reasons. In fact, we've got a mountain of evidence that McDaniels will start the best player, whether a Shanahan guy or a guy he brought in. (Deactivating his own high draft picks, etc.)

The thing I took exception with was the silly uprising that blamed our woes on his lack of carries. It was a silly movement that has since died down.

Build up our O-line, and ALL of our backs will run more efficiently.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 02:25 PM
Moreno and Hillis would both have much more success if our offensive line was in-tact and not filled with aged ragdolls who cannot block in the new scheme. As the guy above said, losing Harris hurt. Hamilton played like garbage, and was replaced by Hochstein who is an absolute joke. Casey takes at least one **** every week, Kuper has been getting beat consistently and even Clady has had struggles. Our line is just treacherous.

I expected Moreno to have a lot more success than he did this season, but given our line troubles, I can see as to why not. Yes, he has danced in the backfield, but the holes are not opening for him. Moreno not getting tough yards is the same reason why Hillis hasn't been able to. Look at the line. We know these guys can get tough yards, but the line has been abysmal.

I side with Popps thinking that Moreno is the better option in all of this. I don't blame McDaniels and stubborness for Hillis not getting on the field. I blame it on Hillis, and the likelihood that he isn't doing what is necessary week by week to have an increased role on the team. Either way, I really don't care. Hillis has been overhyped for a while now. He was a good fit for what Mike wanted to do, but I'm not sure if he is the "guy" we need at either position, be it FB or HB here.

Hillis can continue to sit on the sidelines looking disinterested in what is going on. He has griped and pouted before. See his past with the Razorbacks. Hopefully he'll be someone Shanahan might be interested in trading for wherever he lands up. That, or he somehow shows up to play and earns a bigger role on our team and can produce. I'll take either, but prefer the former.

So if this is the case about Hillis in terms of how McD and the fans see Hillis, then should Hillis ask for his outright release next year in the hopes to going with a team who can better utilize his skills; McD shouldn't have any problem granting Hillis his wish and shaking hands and say "Sorry It Didn't Work Out" hopefully you'll have better luck with another team.

Can anyone see that scenario happening in the offseason?;)

Requiem
12-28-2009, 02:35 PM
Troy Smith already informed the Ravens he'd like to be traded (or released). I'm sure Hillis could do the same!

rastaman
12-28-2009, 02:52 PM
Troy Smith already informed the Ravens he'd like to be traded (or released). I'm sure Hillis could do the same!

Then thats what he should do. He needs a fresh start and has no future in Denver.

24champ
12-28-2009, 02:58 PM
Moreno and Hillis would both have much more success if our offensive line was in-tact and not filled with aged ragdolls who cannot block in the new scheme. As the guy above said, losing Harris hurt. Hamilton played like garbage, and was replaced by Hochstein who is an absolute joke. Casey takes at least one **** every week, Kuper has been getting beat consistently and even Clady has had struggles. Our line is just treacherous.

I expected Moreno to have a lot more success than he did this season, but given our line troubles, I can see as to why not. Yes, he has danced in the backfield, but the holes are not opening for him. Moreno not getting tough yards is the same reason why Hillis hasn't been able to. Look at the line. We know these guys can get tough yards, but the line has been abysmal.

I side with Popps thinking that Moreno is the better option in all of this. I don't blame McDaniels and stubborness for Hillis not getting on the field. I blame it on Hillis, and the likelihood that he isn't doing what is necessary week by week to have an increased role on the team. Either way, I really don't care. Hillis has been overhyped for a while now. He was a good fit for what Mike wanted to do, but I'm not sure if he is the "guy" we need at either position, be it FB or HB here.

Hillis can continue to sit on the sidelines looking disinterested in what is going on. He has griped and pouted before. See his past with the Razorbacks. Hopefully he'll be someone Shanahan might be interested in trading for wherever he lands up. That, or he somehow shows up to play and earns a bigger role on our team and can produce. I'll take either, but prefer the former.

Hillis is going bye bye this offseason. We'll probably cut him, since I don't see him having much value on the trade market. It's pretty clear the O-lines production has went down, along with injuries. We'll need some better talent suited for the system and more depth at that position.

MplsBronco
12-28-2009, 02:59 PM
Then thats what he should do. He needs a fresh start and has no future in Denver.

Yeah, because that is what 7th round FB's do, demand trades. Get real.

watermock
12-28-2009, 03:31 PM
Hillis wodn't be an issue if Moreno did,n't suck along with NcBeavis idiotic blocking <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8JvUKS0RJlc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8JvUKS0RJlc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>schemes.

David Wooderson
12-28-2009, 03:40 PM
Denver is flyin smoothly under the radar. Nobody is expecting much from Hillis. It's all part of the grand scheme, man.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2009, 04:00 PM
I like this team. They have balls.

Popps
12-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Then thats what he should do. He needs a fresh start and has no future in Denver.

Well, teams are beating down the door for him... that's obvious.

Mr.Meanie
12-28-2009, 05:38 PM
Yeah, because that is what 7th round FB's do, demand trades. Get real.

:rofl:

rastaman
12-28-2009, 05:42 PM
Yeah, because that is what 7th round FB's do, demand trades. Get real.

Yeah more so than 1st day draft picks. They have no value to the team anyway and the team doesn't really use him effectively, so why shouldn't a lowly 7th round pick ask for his outright release and seek a jump start in their career?

Besides Hillis is too stupid to learn the offense in the first place. Why waste a uniform and roster spot on this SLUG.

rastaman
12-28-2009, 05:47 PM
Well, teams are beating down the door for him... that's obvious.

Well McD is breaking his neck to keep Hillis on the sidelines thats for sure. And doesn't mind Hillis is risking career ending injuries playing special teams.

WTF.....Hillis knows he has no future offensive wise under McD so why stay a Bronco?

I wonder what type of draft pick McD will demand for his seldom used utility special team player?

How much can we get for Peyton? Can we get a 5th, 6th, or 7th round pick for the mentally challenged turnover plagued FB?

Hamrob
12-28-2009, 07:49 PM
The only part I'll disagree with is "so" many.

You put two quality interior offensive linemen on this team today, and we ****ing win.

Our O-line played AGAINST us all day long. Brutal penalties at crucial times, and just horrible blocking and "protection" all day.If we had a QB that could move his friken feet...our oline would be just fine.

Popps
12-28-2009, 08:07 PM
If we had a QB that could move his friken feet...our oline would be just fine.

We're discussing the running game.

Popps
12-28-2009, 08:09 PM
How much can we get for Peyton? Can we get a 5th, 6th, or 7th round pick for the mentally challenged turnover plagued FB?

No one is trading anything for him. Beyond that, who friggin' cares. He's irrelevant.

Your Peyton Hilis Jihad has grown tiresome. It used to be funny... now it's just old.

Borks147
12-28-2009, 09:09 PM
This message is hidden because broncofan7 is on your ignore list.


Just do it...it will make all your posting lives better. This guy is a sh*t stain.

as one of the few people I still take seriously around here, I'll listen.

55CrushEm
12-29-2009, 09:17 AM
The difference is moron that Shanny had 10 mediocre years and 1 playoff win, yes count it ONE playoff win in that 10 year span. This is McD's first year so give him a little bit of a break he installed a new system etc. and appears we will have a winning record at 9-7. The two situations aren't even comparable.

Exactly.....what bronco(non)fan7 thinks is that in one year McD should have us in Superbowl contention.....that's just stupid....but coming from him, not surprising.....

I guess he thought Shanny should have been fired after his rookie season in 1995 after going 8-8, huh? Or that Bill Belichick should've been fired after his rookie season in 2000 after going 5-11, huh?

And he has the balls to call other people here hypocrites.....

broncofan7
12-29-2009, 09:57 AM
Exactly.....what bronco(non)fan7 thinks is that in one year McD should have us in Superbowl contention.....that's just stupid....but coming from him, not surprising.....

I guess he thought Shanny should have been fired after his rookie season in 1995 after going 8-8, huh? Or that Bill Belichick should've been fired after his rookie season in 2000 after going 5-11, huh?

And he has the balls to call other people here hypocrites.....

2 wins in his last nine games---Our Broncos are REGRESSING under McGenius's stewardship----with the installation of a new system-the typical explanation is that it takes time for the team to get acclimated to it--well as this season goes on--GUESS WHAT? We are getting WORSE!!! Even Raheem Morris's team is improving!! Raheem MORRIS!!!!

Some people look both ways before crossing the road--others just skip along mindlessly until they are squashed by that oncoming truck----OPEN YOUR EYES....because that truck is coming.

Dagmar
12-29-2009, 10:30 AM
as one of the few people I still take seriously around here, I'll listen.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7023

This plugin for firefox erases those on your ignore list from existence. It is a thing of beauty.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Talking about the running game has me thinking. I've seen glimpses of good lead blocking from Larsen, enough to give me at least a little confidence in him going forward. Moreno and Buckhalter are better than average RBs. I do think we need somebody that can move the pile and pick up one yard...EVEN WHEN A HOLE IS NOT THERE. Many can probably remember Zach Crockett doing just that for the Raiders, even when their OL wasn't much of anything. Not sure who that is in this draft class, but if there is a big banger around in the 4th or 5th round, then maybe you pick him up for those three or four carries per game. More than anything else, our 3rd down conversion pct. needs to improve 10-15% for us to be elite. Convert three 3rd downs more per game and this team is probably 11-4 right now.

Now for the OL. Its tough with our draft slotting to really rebuild our OL. OGs don't go in the top 10-12 picks (which is where we'll likely be picking). And the best OGs don't last until the 52nd or so pick etiher. The #10-12 pick would be pretty nice if we needed a Tackle, but I'm not so sure we aren't set there. Harris has had a lot of injuries, but you can't just throw him to the curb either. Maybe the best solution is to draft one of the better tackles at #10(-12) and play him at OG and that also gives us insurance for Harris' recurring injuries. There have been A LOT of good tackle prospects that have moved inside and found outstanding results.

But there is an even larger problem and that is the QB position. McDaniels' play calling is a result of his QB. I believe the rumors that I've heard that Denver really doesn't know if Orton is the future here. I fully expect we'll know soon enough though as I believe he will receive a tender but not a "good" contract offer. The simple fact is, with Orton behind center it is very easy to cram the box. Even with just seven players teams have been able to cram the box and still establish good pass coverage. So you have 7 guys ready to kill the run and then an interior OL that is struggling. Wouldn't be that big of an issue except Orton can't move. I've heard some blame it on injured ankles... This guy is a 5.5 40 guy. You could give him John Elway's ankles and it wouldn't make a difference. If Bradford some how falls to you at #10-12 then you pull the trigger. He is as close to a franchise QB as we're going to find. Pretty sure he won't slip that far though. So you look to round 2. Colt McCoy may slip and he has a nice blend of passing ability and mobility. But a guy that has been brought up a bit recently (mainly by Cecil L.) is Dan LeFevour. VERY similar to Jay Cutler in stature at 6'3 235 and has a lot of starting experience as a 4 year starter at Central Michigan. His speed may be questionable, but his mobility is not. So far this year he has completed 71% of his passes and thrown for 3000 yards, 27 TDs and only 6 INTs. He has been sacked only 15 times and also has 14 rushing TDs. He has right around 700 yards rushing on the season and has played well in some pretty big games, i.e. Michigan St. (328 yds, 3 TDs, 1 Int... for a 29-27 win). He could very well be a guy that could come in and start from day one. If you want to catch him play, CMich's bowl game is on January 6th.

Here is a little scouting report on him:

Dan Lefevour, QB, Central Michigan
Dan LeFevour has done a lot of things during his career with Central Michigan. The 6-3 quarterback won the conference's Freshman of the Year honors in 2006 and was an honorable mention Freshman All-American by multiple media outlets. Not only did LeFevour throw for over 3,000 yards as a freshman, but he also proved to be a great rusher and reached the end zone seven times on the ground. In 2007 he became just the second player in NCAA history to pass for 3,000 yards and run for 1,000 in the same season. His company in that elite group is Vince Young. That season he also joined Tim Tebow as the only player to pass for at least 20 touchdowns and score 20 touchdowns. In all, LeFevour accounted for an amazing 47 touchdowns in 2007.
LeFevour's numbers dipped in 2008, but he still proved to be an efficient passer and did lead the team in rushing with 592 yards; more important than the touchdowns and rushing is the passing efficiency. Through 11 games in the 2009 season, LeFevour has completed an impressive 71.7 percent of his passes and has thrown just five interceptions.

At 6-3 and 238 pounds, LeFevour has the size NFL teams will be looking for in a signal caller. He does not exactly have experience in a pro style offense, but he should be able to prove any doubters wrong during senior week when he can take a few more snaps under center.

Prediction: 3rd Round
Poor man's Jake Locker athletically, but is more accurate. Average arm strength but can make basically every NFL throw. I think he will be one of the bigger steals in the draft.

bpc
12-29-2009, 10:56 AM
I don't think i've ever seen a McD led offense draft a mobile QB. They all are the stilt like figure of Matt Cassel, Kyle Orton, and Tom Brandstater. The SDSU QB a few years ago might be the only exception.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 10:59 AM
I don't think i've ever seen a McD led offense draft a mobile QB. They all are the stilt like figure of Matt Cassel, Kyle Orton, and Tom Brandstater. The SDSU QB a few years ago might be the only exception.

Matt Cassel and Tom Brady each have excellent mobility. Tom Brady is one of the best in the league at buying himself that extra second and hanging in there to make the throw right as the pressure is getting to him. Brett Favre last night was the perfect example of hanging in the pocket and making the throw at the last second. Kyle Orton wouldn't have pulled the trigger and he wouldn't have folded before the pressure even got close.

elsid13
12-29-2009, 11:02 AM
Talking about the running game has me thinking. I've seen glimpses of good lead blocking from Larsen, enough to give me at least a little confidence in him going forward. Moreno and Buckhalter are better than average RBs. I do think we need somebody that can move the pile and pick up one yard...EVEN WHEN A HOLE IS NOT THERE. Many can probably remember Zach Crockett doing just that for the Raiders, even when their OL wasn't much of anything. Not sure who that is in this draft class, but if there is a big banger around in the 4th or 5th round, then maybe you pick him up for those three or four carries per game. More than anything else, our 3rd down conversion pct. needs to improve 10-15% for us to be elite. Convert three 3rd downs more per game and this team is probably 11-4 right now.

Now for the OL. Its tough with our draft slotting to really rebuild our OL. OGs don't go in the top 10-12 picks (which is where we'll likely be picking). And the best OGs don't last until the 52nd or so pick etiher. The #10-12 pick would be pretty nice if we needed a Tackle, but I'm not so sure we aren't set there. Harris has had a lot of injuries, but you can't just throw him to the curb either. Maybe the best solution is to draft one of the better tackles at #10(-12) and play him at OG and that also gives us insurance for Harris' recurring injuries. There have been A LOT of good tackle prospects that have moved inside and found outstanding results.

But there is an even larger problem and that is the QB position. McDaniels' play calling is a result of his QB. I believe the rumors that I've heard that Denver really doesn't know if Orton is the future here. I fully expect we'll know soon enough though as I believe he will receive a tender but not a "good" contract offer. The simple fact is, with Orton behind center it is very easy to cram the box. Even with just seven players teams have been able to cram the box and still establish good pass coverage. So you have 7 guys ready to kill the run and then an interior OL that is struggling. Wouldn't be that big of an issue except Orton can't move. I've heard some blame it on injured ankles... This guy is a 5.5 40 guy. You could give him John Elway's ankles and it wouldn't make a difference. If Bradford some how falls to you at #10-12 then you pull the trigger. He is as close to a franchise QB as we're going to find. Pretty sure he won't slip that far though. So you look to round 2. Colt McCoy may slip and he has a nice blend of passing ability and mobility. But a guy that has been brought up a bit recently (mainly by Cecil L.) is Dan LeFevour. VERY similar to Jay Cutler in stature at 6'3 235 and has a lot of starting experience as a 4 year starter at Central Michigan. His speed may be questionable, but his mobility is not. So far this year he has completed 71% of his passes and thrown for 3000 yards, 27 TDs and only 6 INTs. He has been sacked only 15 times and also has 14 rushing TDs. He has right around 700 yards rushing on the season and has played well in some pretty big games, i.e. Michigan St. (328 yds, 3 TDs, 1 Int... for a 29-27 win). He could very well be a guy that could come in and start from day one. If you want to catch him play, CMich's bowl game is on January 6th.

Here is a little scouting report on him:

Dan Lefevour, QB, Central Michigan
Dan LeFevour has done a lot of things during his career with Central Michigan. The 6-3 quarterback won the conference's Freshman of the Year honors in 2006 and was an honorable mention Freshman All-American by multiple media outlets. Not only did LeFevour throw for over 3,000 yards as a freshman, but he also proved to be a great rusher and reached the end zone seven times on the ground. In 2007 he became just the second player in NCAA history to pass for 3,000 yards and run for 1,000 in the same season. His company in that elite group is Vince Young. That season he also joined Tim Tebow as the only player to pass for at least 20 touchdowns and score 20 touchdowns. In all, LeFevour accounted for an amazing 47 touchdowns in 2007.
LeFevour's numbers dipped in 2008, but he still proved to be an efficient passer and did lead the team in rushing with 592 yards; more important than the touchdowns and rushing is the passing efficiency. Through 11 games in the 2009 season, LeFevour has completed an impressive 71.7 percent of his passes and has thrown just five interceptions.

At 6-3 and 238 pounds, LeFevour has the size NFL teams will be looking for in a signal caller. He does not exactly have experience in a pro style offense, but he should be able to prove any doubters wrong during senior week when he can take a few more snaps under center.

Prediction: 3rd Round
Poor man's Jake Locker athletically, but is more accurate. Average arm strength but can make basically every NFL throw. I think he will be one of the bigger steals in the draft.

I like LeVevour, but he doesn't not have the arm to be NFL starting QB. If you watch his games you will see a winner, but he had topped out on his talent. Think BVP without an arm. This draft has a bunch of OK QBs but nothing special.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 11:04 AM
What will suck is when Colt McCoy gets drafted by the Seahawks with the Broncos pick. He would be a perfect fit for us, but I don't see us drafting a QB in the first round.

bpc
12-29-2009, 11:06 AM
Matt Cassel and Tom Brady each have excellent mobility. Tom Brady is one of the best in the league at buying himself that extra second and hanging in there to make the throw right as the pressure is getting to him. Brett Favre last night was the perfect example of hanging in the pocket and making the throw at the last second. Kyle Orton wouldn't have pulled the trigger and he wouldn't have folded before the pressure even got close.

Both are average athletically. Brady has great POCKET AWARENESS and he's a playmaker, so yes, he occasionally runs for yds. Not often though. I have only watched Cassel last year against us and I did not consider him a great athlete.

They both look like Michael Vick when compared to Orton. Kyle has set the mobile QB impression in Denver back decades.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 11:06 AM
I like LeVevour, but he doesn't not have the arm to be NFL starting QB. If you watch his games you will see a winner, but he had topped out on his talent. Think BVP without an arm. This draft has a bunch of OK QBs but nothing special.

BVP in terms of running the ball, but a shiat load more accurate as a passer. His arm isn't going to make anyone forget about John Elway, you're right about that... but a lot of QBs in the NFL have done very well with limited arm strength. He can make it through his progessions and has experience in a spread offense. He can throw like Chad Pennington for all I care if he makes the reads he'll be effective. If he had a cannon for an arm, we wouldn't be tlaking about him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick! lol

elsid13
12-29-2009, 11:08 AM
BVP in terms of running the ball, but a shiat load more accurate as a passer. His arm isn't going to make anyone forget about John Elway, you're right about that... but a lot of QBs in the NFL have done very well with limited arm strength. He can make it through his progessions and has experience in a spread offense. He can throw like Chad Pennington for all I care if he makes the reads he'll be effective. If he had a cannon for an arm, we wouldn't be tlaking about him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick! lol

I like him, but like Hiller out WMU, he is late rounder (5th to 6th) that need to hope he stick as back-up in the league.

Tombstone RJ
12-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Talking about the running game has me thinking. I've seen glimpses of good lead blocking from Larsen, enough to give me at least a little confidence in him going forward. Moreno and Buckhalter are better than average RBs. I do think we need somebody that can move the pile and pick up one yard...EVEN WHEN A HOLE IS NOT THERE. Many can probably remember Zach Crockett doing just that for the Raiders, even when their OL wasn't much of anything. Not sure who that is in this draft class, but if there is a big banger around in the 4th or 5th round, then maybe you pick him up for those three or four carries per game. More than anything else, our 3rd down conversion pct. needs to improve 10-15% for us to be elite. Convert three 3rd downs more per game and this team is probably 11-4 right now.

Now for the OL. Its tough with our draft slotting to really rebuild our OL. OGs don't go in the top 10-12 picks (which is where we'll likely be picking). And the best OGs don't last until the 52nd or so pick etiher. The #10-12 pick would be pretty nice if we needed a Tackle, but I'm not so sure we aren't set there. Harris has had a lot of injuries, but you can't just throw him to the curb either. Maybe the best solution is to draft one of the better tackles at #10(-12) and play him at OG and that also gives us insurance for Harris' recurring injuries. There have been A LOT of good tackle prospects that have moved inside and found outstanding results.

But there is an even larger problem and that is the QB position. McDaniels' play calling is a result of his QB. I believe the rumors that I've heard that Denver really doesn't know if Orton is the future here. I fully expect we'll know soon enough though as I believe he will receive a tender but not a "good" contract offer. The simple fact is, with Orton behind center it is very easy to cram the box. Even with just seven players teams have been able to cram the box and still establish good pass coverage. So you have 7 guys ready to kill the run and then an interior OL that is struggling. Wouldn't be that big of an issue except Orton can't move. I've heard some blame it on injured ankles... This guy is a 5.5 40 guy. You could give him John Elway's ankles and it wouldn't make a difference. If Bradford some how falls to you at #10-12 then you pull the trigger. He is as close to a franchise QB as we're going to find. Pretty sure he won't slip that far though. So you look to round 2. Colt McCoy may slip and he has a nice blend of passing ability and mobility. But a guy that has been brought up a bit recently (mainly by Cecil L.) is Dan LeFevour. VERY similar to Jay Cutler in stature at 6'3 235 and has a lot of starting experience as a 4 year starter at Central Michigan. His speed may be questionable, but his mobility is not. So far this year he has completed 71% of his passes and thrown for 3000 yards, 27 TDs and only 6 INTs. He has been sacked only 15 times and also has 14 rushing TDs. He has right around 700 yards rushing on the season and has played well in some pretty big games, i.e. Michigan St. (328 yds, 3 TDs, 1 Int... for a 29-27 win). He could very well be a guy that could come in and start from day one. If you want to catch him play, CMich's bowl game is on January 6th.

Here is a little scouting report on him:

Dan Lefevour, QB, Central Michigan
Dan LeFevour has done a lot of things during his career with Central Michigan. The 6-3 quarterback won the conference's Freshman of the Year honors in 2006 and was an honorable mention Freshman All-American by multiple media outlets. Not only did LeFevour throw for over 3,000 yards as a freshman, but he also proved to be a great rusher and reached the end zone seven times on the ground. In 2007 he became just the second player in NCAA history to pass for 3,000 yards and run for 1,000 in the same season. His company in that elite group is Vince Young. That season he also joined Tim Tebow as the only player to pass for at least 20 touchdowns and score 20 touchdowns. In all, LeFevour accounted for an amazing 47 touchdowns in 2007.
LeFevour's numbers dipped in 2008, but he still proved to be an efficient passer and did lead the team in rushing with 592 yards; more important than the touchdowns and rushing is the passing efficiency. Through 11 games in the 2009 season, LeFevour has completed an impressive 71.7 percent of his passes and has thrown just five interceptions.

At 6-3 and 238 pounds, LeFevour has the size NFL teams will be looking for in a signal caller. He does not exactly have experience in a pro style offense, but he should be able to prove any doubters wrong during senior week when he can take a few more snaps under center.

Prediction: 3rd Round
Poor man's Jake Locker athletically, but is more accurate. Average arm strength but can make basically every NFL throw. I think he will be one of the bigger steals in the draft.

I have no problem with LeFevour in the third round. Fact is, as much as I like Orton, he's got some real liabilities. I'd prefer to draft a QB on the second day but in reality, if a guy like LeFevour falls to the Broncos, you have to take a flyer on him.

You can never be too deep at QB. Orton+Brandstatter+Draft Pick+FA? Then, basically give Orton the job because he deserves to the job (I know Orton haters are gonna hate, but give the guy some credit, he's a great leader) and see where the team is next year. Start grooming the best of the rest and IF the Broncos start to tank next year due to subpar QB play, then you have options to replace Orton. However, it's on Orton's shoulders to get this offense rolling and if he can't get it done AND the running game is producing AND the defense is playing solid then you pull the plug.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 11:24 AM
The problem with keeping Orton is that you have to make a complete and dedicated decision to keeping him. IF Orton is your QB for the future then you completely remake the OL. You fill them with big nasty dudes in the middle and you get away from the RB Screens as it will be difficult for the guys we'll need to get out and lead block.

If you go a different direction at QB it opens up your offense tremendously. A QB that can make plays in the pocket and outside the pocket is exactly what we need unless we want to revamp the OL. It's not exactly a secret that our OL is struggling this year b/c what they do well, Orton cannot. Trust me, if they could they would roll Orton out and slide the pocket using Hamilton, Weigmann, and Kuper's strengths similar to what we did with the ZBS. Problem is, Orton cannot execute this style of offense. I don't hate the guy, it's just we are so limited with him that by sticking with him you have to completely rebuild the OL and get away from some of the things that McD would like to do. The writing is on the walls, I'd be very surprised if he was our starting QB beyond 2010.

55CrushEm
12-29-2009, 11:28 AM
2 wins in his last nine games---Our Broncos are REGRESSING under McGenius's stewardship----with the installation of a new system-the typical explanation is that it takes time for the team to get acclimated to it--well as this season goes on--GUESS WHAT? We are getting WORSE!!! Even Raheem Morris's team is improving!! Raheem MORRIS!!!!

Some people look both ways before crossing the road--others just skip along mindlessly until they are squashed by that oncoming truck----OPEN YOUR EYES....because that truck is coming.

Open MY eyes? Open YOURS!!! WE WERE GETTING WORSE UNDER SHANAHAN TOO!!!!!! But was that ok, in your mind??

Why the personal hatred toward McD? Why the free pass for Shanny? Would you have fired Belichick after he went 5-11 in HIS first season? Get a ****ing clue you dip****....a guy can't implement his system and the players he needs in ONE offseason.

And don't give me any **** about Caldwell in Indianapolis.....that was an INTERNAL hire, and he didn't change systems....and Peyton runs that team, anyway.

You're a complete imbecile. So anyway, who should be coaching our team??

Bronco Yoda
12-29-2009, 11:32 AM
I'm proud of the way this team fought today. This was one of the most brutal losses in the past decade, as far as I'm concerned... but it wasn't for a lack of guts and effort on the field. We're a few horses short, and we sure didn't catch any breaks today, but props to this team for fighting their hearts out today.

The result was painful, but the effort and quality of what we saw is extremely encouraging. We'll have a chance to play for a winning season next week, and maybe a back-door playoff spot. Not how I hoped it would end after a big start, but WAY past most of our pre-season expectations.

Today was as painful as it gets, but I think we'll look back at this game later as one where we really saw this team turning the corner to being a playoff caliber team.

No one said ride would be without turbulence.




Flame away, trolls.


I second that as well. The Eagles are one of the hottest teams right now and we hung with them. I still wish that McD wouldn't have gone conservative when we got close but it is what it is.

But I'm still mad about the Raider game. Now THAT was a big time screw up!

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 11:34 AM
The more I think about it the more I hope Bradford falls in our lap.

David Wooderson
12-29-2009, 11:50 AM
If we had a QB that could move his friken feet...our oline would be just fine.

Everybody was talkin bout how good Clady was at not giving up sacks last year, but that's because Cutler moved around a little more.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 11:56 AM
The Eagles are one of the hottest teams right now and we hung with them.

Yep, and with the Vikings and Saints starting to look very beatable they are even becoming a dark horse NFC favorite. Which goes to show how mediocre the league is when I think the Eagles are nothing particularly special, particularly on defense.

Popps
12-29-2009, 01:04 PM
The problem with keeping Orton is that you have to make a complete and dedicated decision to keeping him. IF Orton is your QB for the future then you completely remake the OL. You fill them with big nasty dudes in the middle and you get away from the RB Screens as it will be difficult for the guys we'll need to get out and lead block. .

See, I disagree to a point, here. I think no matter who is behind center... we've got to do just that. (Get bigger and nastier up front.) We need to be able to control games on the ground.

Think about late in Sunday's game. We're in the redzone with a chance to go up, and have to settle for a FG. We just can't run the ball when teams know we're going to run.

Now, if you've got Peyton Manning back there, certainly it affords you more respect from defensive fronts. But, those guys are few and far between. We've got to build up a dominant O-line like we had in the late 90s. (Remember Brister coming in and looking like a Superstar? Thank the O-line for that.)

The other issue is... I think Orton is fantastic when he's got time in the pocket. He CAN get the ball downfield and his deep ball is plenty accurate. He's got a great mid-range arm. But, the reason we throw all of these screens is that we've got guys up in our **** before our receivers can even get out of their breaks. We can't push in the run-game, and we barely protect in the passing game.

Take the other angle, though... if you want to replace Orton. Fine... with who? Any QB in free agency or the draft this year will need big-time protection. So, we're back at square one. Unless San Diego is going to donate Philip Rivers to us... we'll need to build a line that can protect ANY QB.

T
If you go a different direction at QB it opens up your offense tremendously. A QB that can make plays in the pocket and outside the pocket is exactly what we need unless we want to revamp the OL. .

Who? How many QBs make plays "outside the pocket" that we could bring in? Cutler makes plays outside the pocket. Problem is, most of those plays are for the other team. VERY FEW QBs who operate "outside of the pocket" are successful in the NFL.

In fact, name one? You've got a couple guys like Brees who can slip away and make a nice play on the run. But, most of these guys like Mannin/Brees/Rivers do their best work from the pocket.

Jake Plummer made more plays outside of the pocket than most QBs and all people did was bitch because he wasn't a better pocket passer.

We need to build up a dominant line that can allow a QB of any skillset to be successful.

Trying to find a QB and THEN patch-working a line together around him is ass-backwards, imo. We have a scheme we want to run. Find the right guys to run it. Dominate up front, and give ANY QB a chance to be successful.

The writing is on the walls, I'd be very surprised if he was our starting QB beyond 2010.

Oh, you could be right about that. I'm not sure Orton is a long-term answer. But, we might be able to make some post-season noise with him if we put a real line together and continue to build the defense.

Again, either way... you build up your lines until they dominate teams. That's the only way to be successful in this league... unless you're lucky enough to land a Rivers/Manning, which we can continue to look for as we build our lines up.

Popps
12-29-2009, 01:07 PM
The more I think about it the more I hope Bradford falls in our lap.

I have to admit, that would be tempting.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 01:09 PM
Everybody was talkin bout how good Clady was at not giving up sacks last year, but that's because Cutler moved around a little more.

Well that is certainly part of it, the other factor (and the one that has more to do with his "decline") is teams are figuring him out. His rookie year we were able to protect him a bit with Cutler's feet, that is true. But he was also very good at setting his feet. This year teams have figured out how to prevent him from setting his feet. Dwight Freeney called it on the button, he struggles with quick change of direction. Look at what guys like Tamba Hali have done to Clady and it is easy to see. A sudden move inside or out and then a "cross-over" with any quick burst will beat him. This isn't atypical for a 2nd year OL though. Even with Clady's struggles, he is out performing guys like Roos, Long, Thomas, and even the famed Michael Oher. Think back to Thomas' rookie year. He looked like he was the best OL to come out since Walter Jones or Orlando Pace. In year two he wasn't top 15 in the league. This year he's had a better year though not up to his rookie year level. Teams simply are too good at identifying weaknesses... Still, 6 sacks on the year for a 2nd year OL is remarkable and further shows that Ryan Clady is one of the best in the game. A mobile QB would reduce that number, but Clady is going to have some significant work to do to improve and become a true technician that can shut down whatever moves an OLB or DE decide to throw his way.

Ray Finkle
12-29-2009, 01:14 PM
The more I think about it the more I hope Bradford falls in our lap.

he and his noodle arm scare the crap out of me.

Popps
12-29-2009, 01:17 PM
Well that is certainly part of it, the other factor (and the one that has more to do with his "decline") is teams are figuring him out. His rookie year we were able to protect him a bit with Cutler's feet, that is true. But he was also very good at setting his feet. This year teams have figured out how to prevent him from setting his feet. Dwight Freeney called it on the button, he struggles with quick change of direction. Look at what guys like Tamba Hali have done to Clady and it is easy to see. A sudden move inside or out and then a "cross-over" with any quick burst will beat him. This isn't atypical for a 2nd year OL though. Even with Clady's struggles, he is out performing guys like Roos, Long, Thomas, and even the famed Michael Oher. Think back to Thomas' rookie year. He looked like he was the best OL to come out since Walter Jones or Orlando Pace. In year two he wasn't top 15 in the league. This year he's had a better year though not up to his rookie year level. Teams simply are too good at identifying weaknesses... Still, 6 sacks on the year for a 2nd year OL is remarkable and further shows that Ryan Clady is one of the best in the game. A mobile QB would reduce that number, but Clady is going to have some significant work to do to improve and become a true technician that can shut down whatever moves an OLB or DE decide to throw his way.


BTW, don't agree with all... but your posts have been great reading. High quality stuff.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 01:35 PM
See, I disagree to a point, here. I think no matter who is behind center... we've got to do just that. (Get bigger and nastier up front.) We need to be able to control games on the ground.

Think about late in Sunday's game. We're in the redzone with a chance to go up, and have to settle for a FG. We just can't run the ball when teams know we're going to run.

Now, if you've got Peyton Manning back there, certainly it affords you more respect from defensive fronts. But, those guys are few and far between. We've got to build up a dominant O-line like we had in the late 90s. (Remember Brister coming in and looking like a Superstar? Thank the O-line for that.)

The other issue is... I think Orton is fantastic when he's got time in the pocket. He CAN get the ball downfield and his deep ball is plenty accurate. He's got a great mid-range arm. But, the reason we throw all of these screens is that we've got guys up in our **** before our receivers can even get out of their breaks. We can't push in the run-game, and we barely protect in the passing game.

Take the other angle, though... if you want to replace Orton. Fine... with who? Any QB in free agency or the draft this year will need big-time protection. So, we're back at square one. Unless San Diego is going to donate Philip Rivers to us... we'll need to build a line that can protect ANY QB.



Who? How many QBs make plays "outside the pocket" that we could bring in? Cutler makes plays outside the pocket. Problem is, most of those plays are for the other team. VERY FEW QBs who operate "outside of the pocket" are successful in the NFL.

In fact, name one? You've got a couple guys like Brees who can slip away and make a nice play on the run. But, most of these guys like Mannin/Brees/Rivers do their best work from the pocket.

Jake Plummer made more plays outside of the pocket than most QBs and all people did was b**** because he wasn't a better pocket passer.

We need to build up a dominant line that can allow a QB of any skillset to be successful.

Trying to find a QB and THEN patch-working a line together around him is ass-backwards, imo. We have a scheme we want to run. Find the right guys to run it. Dominate up front, and give ANY QB a chance to be successful.



Oh, you could be right about that. I'm not sure Orton is a long-term answer. But, we might be able to make some post-season noise with him if we put a real line together and continue to build the defense.

Again, either way... you build up your lines until they dominate teams. That's the only way to be successful in this league... unless you're lucky enough to land a Rivers/Manning, which we can continue to look for as we build our lines up.


All good points, but I'll ask you this one question. If Orton was able to move do you think the Broncos OL would not be better in protection, and the same can be said for the run blocking. It all comes down to the QB. Teams can put 7 guys and have them crashing down against the run (which is what we've seen in the last 6 or 7 weeks) without giving up much in pass pro and with no fear of the QB escaping the pocket and getting yards on his own. Seriously Popps, were you not yelling at your TV when it was 3 and 2 and Orton broke free and instead of running for an easy two yards he thru the ball as hard as he could 4 feet behind Brandon Lloyd. THREE MORE FIRST DOWNS PER GAME and this team is not only challenging the Chargers for the Division, they are a major playoff contender! Three more first downs per game, that's it and we increase our 3rd down efficiency by 15%. We've missed out on how many 3rd and shorts b/c teams don't have to respect the QB. They simply don't have to account for him.

As to your question of "who then". I can list a dozen QBs that would be more mobile and offer flexibility, but what is the point? Think about it this way, the Houston Texans saw the inability in David Carr and traded for Matt Schaub. He isn't a world beater, but in comparison he's capbable of taking that team to the playoffs. The Broncos could trade for Brodie Croyle and have more success (for a game or two until he went down with injury). The point is, if you want to completely revamp the offense b/c you have a QB that cannot move you're setting yourself up for failure. Peyton Manning and Drew Bledsoe can move like Steve Young compared to Kyle Orton.

BTW, there is a damn good chance that Matt Hasselback is done in Seattle. He's pretty much given in to getting beat down every play. It would be well worth it to bring him in as a stop gap while you draft a QB for the future... holding out hope that Sam Bradford (6'4" 215) falls to us in the draft.

Sam Bradford Scouting Report
By Matt McGuire


Strengths:
Good size with room to add some bulk
Peyton Manning-like accuracy
Outstanding job of anticipating routes
Solid arm strength
Capable of making all the throws
Smooth, consistent spiral
Textbook footwork and can drop back if asked
Great decision-maker since freshman year
Understands timing
Well versed in progression reads
Experienced
Very quick release
Ridiculous level of production
Sells play action
Places ball in stride of receiver
Will step up in pocket
Decent athleticism
Throws pro routes and has been under center more than given credit for in career
Strong leader and good character





Weaknesses:
Toughness really hasn't been tested at this point in his career; never seen pass rush
Arm strength is good, but he will struggle to fit ball in tight windows if he doesn't make very quick decisions
We really do not know if he can make throws on the run yet
Doesn't make any jaw-dropping throws
Doesn't have Stafford/Sanchez level of upside
Is never really forced out of pocket

Summary: The statistics are there and he has operated in a pro-style offense as a freshman. He does throw pro routes, however, he WILL get nitpicked. Matt Leinart was nitpicked. Aaron Rodgers was nitpicked. Brady Quinn was nitpicked. Bradford won't have any challenges this season, so scouts and draftniks will find the flaws. Bradford is a top-20 pick, but don't be shocked if he doesn't go as high as we expect (Top 5) next April.

Player Comparison: Eli Manning. Like Eli, Bradford lacks the elite arm, but he is a superb decision-maker with great accuracy and decision-making. Both have limited upside.


Here are a few other QBs that I think would do better than Orton. Who knows if they are available or not, Matt Schaub and Matt Hassleback were once upon a time "Not available" for Atlanta and Green Bay respectively.

Jason Campbell
Chad Pennington
Brodie Croyle
Matt Moore
Jeff Garcia
Sage Rosenfels
Kevin Kolb
Matt Cassel
Matt Hasselback

I'd even think about guys like Troy Smith, Tavaris Jackson, and Jake Delhomme.

The point is, even if you revamp the OL and put in some big nasty road graters in front of Orton, you don't limit teams from stacking 7 or 8 in the box for the run, Orton cannot get out of the pocket and teams know that... it kills the run game regardless.

Broncoman13
12-29-2009, 01:45 PM
he and his noodle arm scare the crap out of me.

he and his noodle arm scare the crap out of me.

I've watched that kid throw 20 yard crossing routes time after time. The ball gets there on time and rarely, if ever does the receiver break stride. He is the most accurate QB in college football right now. Clausen is the only QB in the draft that has that dynamic combo of accuracy, brains, and arm strength. We may have to settle for avg. arm strength and great accuracy/brains instead. It's been done plenty. Peyton Manning's arm is a lot stronger than it was during his college days. Same thing with Brees. If you're looking for a strong arm then go with Brodie Croyle or Jason Campbell, but can rocket the ball!

Hulamau
12-29-2009, 02:35 PM
That's fine. People weren't with me in the offseason when I thought we were making the right moves, either. I was told we'd be a disaster for years. We're about to finish with a winning record and played tough games against Philly and Indy down the stretch.


Now, don't mistake that for not thinking we need to address problem areas.


Of course we have problem areas.

Did anyone think we WOULDN'T have problem areas the first season of a (true) rebuild?


I've been saying for weeks that we don't have the horses. We don't. Period.

All that said, today showed me promise and a great effort. This wasn't a lay-down job like last season. This team played the asses off.

I'm deflated, but I loved that we clawed back into this game.

This team has a solid core... and a soul.

100% agree... We do have a lot of work ahead but at least the right core is there and it starts with attitude particularly when you don't have the horses it take to win it all.

The slow starts killed us but the many battles back even those that came up short was a far cry from grabbing an early lead and then coasting to loss as was the Shanny-team hallmark the last few years.

Maybe we still sneak in a steal a game in the playoffs.

But if not, I'm still proud of what they did accomplish with all the changes. Close to what I had hoped in the summer and better than 95% expected.

Go Broncos!

Popps
12-29-2009, 03:11 PM
The point is, even if you revamp the OL and put in some big nasty road graters in front of Orton, you don't limit teams from stacking 7 or 8 in the box for the run, Orton cannot get out of the pocket and teams know that... it kills the run game regardless.

Kurt Warner has never run the ball in his life, and he's won a SB and played in a couple others.

Orton is a discount version of Warner. That's exactly what he is. There have been plenty of successful QBs in the league that can't run.

Now, I agree... I'd like to have him more mobile. I also agree that it's frustrating to see a first down there for the taking, and he looks to throw instead of run.

But, here's where I think you (and many others) fall short on evaluation...

For all the complaints about what he doesn't do, the things that Orton DOES do right are largely ignored. He makes a ton of plays, and a ton of smart decisions on a game that keep his team competitive. A lot of those things just aren't that flashy.

Now, running 25 yards for a first down is very flashy. But, McNabb has been criticized over his career for making bone-headed plays at big times. (I actually like him as a QB, but just to make a point.) Jeff Garcia can look fantastic moving around in the pocket and then scrambling for a first down... and then just pitch the game away on a stupid INT the next series. That's why he can't keep a gig as a starter.

Orton is compiling a nice W/L record with two teams that simply aren't elite.
That says something about the intangibles and plays the guy makes. It's just not always pretty.

You're clearly a smart enough guy to understand what I'm saying... and what I'm not. Most mouth-breathers around here will read this post and assume that I "think Orton is awesome." That's not what I'm saying. But, I do think he does an awful lot people don't give him credit for... instead, focusing on a few plays a game that his skill-set doesn't lend to.

Again, you give me a better QB option and I'm thrilled. But, I'm telling you... Garcia and Campbell aren't better options. I'm fine drafting someone to groom, though not thrilled about taking a guy high.


Yes, there are some things that Orton simply can't do. But, he's our best option for AT LEAST the next season, and who knows after that. Protect him, run the ball and give him a chance to do something similar to what Warner did in STL and AZ.

As I said, you build up the line... and any QB benefits and clearly right now, we have big-time problems up front.

It's somewhat of a moot argument because we'll have no choice but to replace AT LEAST our C and one starting G.

We will be addressing the line this off-season, and it's going to help immensely.

TonyR
12-29-2009, 03:21 PM
...we'll have no choice but to replace AT LEAST our C...

Interesting with hindsight that Wiegmann wasn't immediately re-signed. Perhaps the FO was sniffing around other possibilities and when nothing better was available they decided to go ahead and re-up him for one more year?

Old Dude
12-29-2009, 04:30 PM
It's not so much a matter of Orton running. The issue is his pocket awareness. A step or two in the right direction can often buy the valuable time to get off the pass.

Orton has a tendency to step up just a little too early or a little too late and in the wrong direction.

If you saw the Philly game, there was a classic example. He was being pressured from his right side. Clady, over on his left had his man stonewalled. Orton had at least three three ways to move and he stepped into the one area where Clady's guy was able to get him.

Now Orton is not a dumbass. He didn't do that just so he could get sacked. But his attention was downfield, and so his choice was dictated by instinct, peripheral vision and his general experience with his line.

Some QBs have great instincts. Some have great vision or footwork. Some are good multi-taskers. Some are strong enough to break away from an initial grab. Some are very comfortable with their O-Line and just know which way their strongest move will be. Some are just lucky once in awhile.

The point is that you don't necessarily have to be a great scrambler to help out your pass protection.

It would also help a lot if we weren't giving up so much ground in the middle. (Interior size & strength issues again)

Houshyamama
12-29-2009, 04:37 PM
For me... I knew we were going to lose this game. At least I had that 'hunch' and my hunches as far as the Broncos go are pretty accurate (more or less ;D ). I'm just glad we kept it close.

Look, expectations (including mine) went through the roof after starting 6-0 but let's face it, we got A LOT of breaks within that first 6 game span. The next 4 games sent us crashing back down to Earth and while I think we definitely underperformed, we looked much more like the product of a rookie coach than we had earlier in the season. The great thing (if there is such a thing) about the Eagles game is that we didn't get blown out. Last year, at this point in the season, we would have gotten raped.

Not this year. This year we still have a shot at the playoffs and to make some noise once we get in. We can beat anybody. We can beat the Colts. We can beat the Chargers.

And next year? Next year gives Nolan another round of FA to shore up holes in the front 7 and add depth to an aging secondary. Next year McDaniels will have his offense with a year under their belt as far as installing the offensive system is concerned.

Next year... there's ALWAYS next year, but I'm quite certain ;D that we'll have at least 10 wins.

So hang in there Broncos fans. It's not over till it's over and when it's over... there's always next year. And next year looks very good to me.

Popps
12-29-2009, 04:47 PM
It's not so much a matter of Orton running. The issue is his pocket awareness. A step or two in the right direction can often buy the valuable time to get off the pass.

Orton has a tendency to step up just a little too early or a little too late and in the wrong direction.

If you saw the Philly game, there was a classic example. He was being pressured from his right side. Clady, over on his left had his man stonewalled. Orton had at least three three ways to move and he stepped into the one area where Clady's guy was able to get him.

Now Orton is not a dumbass. He didn't do that just so he could get sacked. But his attention was downfield, and so his choice was dictated by instinct, peripheral vision and his general experience with his line.

Some QBs have great instincts. Some have great vision or footwork. Some are good multi-taskers. Some are strong enough to break away from an initial grab. Some are very comfortable with their O-Line and just know which way their strongest move will be. Some are just lucky once in awhile.

The point is that you don't necessarily have to be a great scrambler to help out your pass protection.

It would also help a lot if we weren't giving up so much ground in the middle. (Interior size & strength issues again)

I can't totally argue with that, though I still think his pocket awareness is not so much the problem as just being sort of lumbering and slow.

Honestly, people might laugh... but I think Orton is a guy who could really benefit from an off-season conditioning program that focuses on toning up and increasing quickness. He's a big dude, but he looks like he's carrying too much happy-fat.

Seriously, he needs to hook up with Jerry Rice in the off-season and really try to get more intense about his conditioning. He's tough, smart and has a better arm than people give him credit for. I think better conditioning could actually really help his game.

Popps
12-29-2009, 04:50 PM
Interesting with hindsight that Wiegmann wasn't immediately re-signed. Perhaps the FO was sniffing around other possibilities and when nothing better was available they decided to go ahead and re-up him for one more year?

Yep. They also could have just wanted to see how he looked in camp for a bit, too.

Like Old Guy said... you just can't be dealing with interior pressure on every play.

Ask any offensive coach what they fear most, and I'll guarantee you the answer is disruption in the middle of the line. We face that on a regular basis.

orange 4 life
12-29-2009, 05:15 PM
The danger with going for the "franchise" qb is that you often get burned. Have we already forgotten the difference between Jake Plummer teams (solid but not spectacular qb but great leader. Sound like anyone we know?) and Jay Cutler teams?

We took a 13-3 team and mortgaged its future for the HOPE of a top five in the league "franchise" qb........and we got burned.

Once again, we're in a similar situation. Is Orton a top 5 qb? Nope. Is he top ten? Probably not, but it's ALOT more of a debate than people think.

What ISN'T being discussed here is his toughness and ability to play through injuries. Look, the man isn't Tarkenton, Young, or Elway with his legs even when healthy, but he's also not Marino or Warner.
The guy has played with BADLY sprained ankles two years in a row. Does anyone think he might be a tad better with his feet than these last couple seasons show? Me thinks yes. He CAN run, but he knows his limitations, and he knows the status of his ankles.

Bottom line is this town has been obsessed with finding the next "franchise" qb since #7 retired, all the while ignoring the fact that we've had two VERY good players in Plummer and Orton.
We ran one out of town. Let's not make the mistake again. This is CLEARLY a qb we can win with. He can make all the throws, he's not a whiner, he's tough under pressure, and he's a gritty leader.

Build around him and he IS our franchise qb. He's no Manning or Brady and he never will be, but he CAN be our franchise qb in the sense that we keep him long term, play to his strengths, use his leadership and toughness to get others around him playing harder, and use the draft and free agency to put players around him (on both sides of the ball) that will get us to the next level. We can win with this guy, and we can win ALOT.
No more gambles for the REMOTE possibility of getting a truly ELITE player. Accept that we have a very GOOD player at qb and put a team around him.

Jake

Taco John
12-29-2009, 08:02 PM
I love how all the same arguments that I made about the o-line and Griese are being made today about Orton. Worse, Orton hasn't even scratched Griese's best season here.

I hope we don't commit too much to the guy. I already know how this story ends.

Popps
12-29-2009, 08:07 PM
Problem is, Griese had a knack for pitching games away... making the worst throw at the worst moment.

He was wasn't respected as a team leader, and had basically no intangibles.

So, Griese has nothing to do with the conversation other than, yes... any QB needs an O-line.

You can put an O-line in front of me. Doesn't mean I can play QB for the Denver Broncos.


Perpendicular reasoning only goes so far... and no one cares about some wash-out, crap-can QB we had 7 years ago.

Ray Finkle
12-29-2009, 08:24 PM
I love how all the same arguments that I made about the o-line and Griese are being made today about Orton. Worse, Orton hasn't even scratched Griese's best season here.

I hope we don't commit too much to the guy. I already know how this story ends.

True but weren't one of the biggest Griese homers? I remember you calling for them to throw $$$ to Flozell Adams to be the LT because he was a stud.

Griese was an excellent QB if the play went as designed. When it crapped out, so did he.