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View Full Version : Shahanan went 8-8 1st year as Bronco coach and he even had Elway


barryr
12-22-2009, 10:28 AM
Plus, Phillips' teams went 9-7 and 8-8, so Shahanan hardly improved the record of the team that first year.

Let's get to reality. The bozos calling for McDaniels' head are mostly the ones who called for it last summer, all the while predicting 4 wins and Orton leading the NFL in interceptions and things like that. Little did they know their boy hero Cutler would be the one doing that.

Shanahan also inherited a bad defense, as did McDaniels, but an offense that had been improving with Fassell as the OC under Phillips. But the Broncos had to win their last game at Oakland to just finish at 8-8 in Shahanan's first season. Were people calling for his head? Not that I remember.

It would help if someone people started thinking with their heads.

Oh no, Orton can't throw and has a weak arm. Yeah, and Drew Brees has a cannon doesn't he. Please, like that is the most important thing in a QB. For an amateur, unemployed scout I guess it would.

Ph no, Alphonso Smith can't play. Yeah, rookie CB's who get sporadic playing time all year struggle. What a newsflash, that's just never happens. Give up on a guy already. Pathetic!

Oh, give Hillis more carries. Yeah, a guy who does good remembering what day of the week it is. Whatever. Would be a nice weapon to have at FB if he can remember what he's supposed to do.

You want o-line improvement, finally get rid of Dennison. Never been a fan of his, going back to his days as special teams coach and the lousy job he did there.

The DL needs more help, that's very clear. If not going to get to the QB very often, then at least need to be stout run stuffers.

This team obviously needs more talent, but since Shahanan got more than a year(and he even had previous head coaching experience) then how about giving McDaniels more time as well. I know the irrational types won't since have been disgustingly reveling in every defeat this season, but I'd like to think there are more rational, level-headed people around who can think and have watched the game enough to know the deal.

Dagmar
12-22-2009, 10:29 AM
Had the internet been as prevalent back then...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 10:30 AM
We should have fired him.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:34 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:34 AM
For what it's worth, I think it would be stupid to fire McDaniels right now. And I think people who start threads like this are addressing probably less than 5% of fans who think this would be a good idea. This thread is just as silly, IMO, as one calling for McDaniel's head at this point.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 10:37 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

On the way up? I'd say, at best, we were treading water.

Our defense was not going to get better with Slowick at the helm, and with all that dead weight on that side of the ball. It just wasn't going to happen. And with Shanahan's insistence that he build the offense and ignore the defense, and his propensity for boneheaded drafting on the defensive side of the ball, movin' on up wasn't actually on the agenda.

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 10:39 AM
Did you see any improvement in this team?..I don't see anything..
Mcd's playcalling is horrible since bye week.
We won 2 out of 8 games and might miss playoff's again..
We lost to Frye, Jruss and Tom cable.
I would be OK with loses if atleast there is some improvement..
Mcd keeps calling ****ty plays like QB draw.

I am really frustrated with the way we always choke.
Look at Titans..atleast they look forward to next year.
i don't see any positives as we keep regressing.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 10:41 AM
Did you see any improvement in this team?..I don't see anything..
Mcd's playcalling is horrible since bye week.
We won 2 out of 8 games and might miss playoff's again..
We lost to Frye, Jruss and Tom cable.
I would be OK with loses if atleast there is some improvement..
Mcd keeps calling ****ty plays like QB draw.

I am really frustrated with the way we always choke.
Look at Titans..atleast they look forward to next year.
i don't see any positives as we keep regressing.

You should definitely cry about it.

Can't read the title of the thread, huh? Shanahan followed Fatboy Phillips' 8-8 season with his own 8-8 season. Building a team takes time, and if we were just going to do the same thing over and over again, we wouldn't have fired Shanahan.

You don't see ANY positives? Good god, Chicken Little. The sky ain't falling.

supermanhr9
12-22-2009, 10:42 AM
First of all, our team wasn't on the way up,, we were stagnant, level, no movement. McDaniels shook this team up and re-built it in just one off season and still has produced at minimum a 500 season. Pretty impressive considering. Usually re-building teams finish the season well under that 500 mark. Has he made mistakes? absolutely, but he's a rookie coach.

55CrushEm
12-22-2009, 10:42 AM
Did you see any improvement in this team?..I don't see anything..
Mcd's playcalling is horrible since bye week.
We won 2 out of 8 games and might miss playoff's again..
We lost to Frye, Jruss and Tom cable.
I would be OK with loses if atleast there is some improvement..
Mcd keeps calling ****ty plays like QB draw.

I am really frustrated with the way we always choke.
Look at Titans..atleast they look forward to next year.
i don't see any positives as we keep regressing.

Shanahan lost to Tom Cable and Russell in Denver, too. But I'm sure you have a good excuse for him.....

TonyR
12-22-2009, 10:43 AM
Mcd's playcalling is horrible since bye week.


Sure there have been questionable play calls, but the funny thing about play calling is that if plays are executed correctly and work they're good calls, and when they aren't and don't they're called bad calls.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:43 AM
On the way up? I'd say, at best, we were treading water.

I think we were treading water on defense for those two seasons. But we had our offense set, and the pendulum was swinging towards the defense.

I think we were heading into year three of a 5 year run cycle. My tantrum towards Bowlen was my belief that he reset the clock back to year zero. I believe we had a Superbowl calibre offense in the making, and that with the right defensive personnel, could have quickly put together a defense to compliment it.

But you have your opinion, and I have mine. I doubt either of us will change the other's mind. We believe what we believe about where the team was headed and that's that.

The Joker
12-22-2009, 10:45 AM
We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Yes, cos just magically assembling a defense from nowhere is easy.

We had:

- A promising, yet very erratic, young offense.

- One of the worst defenses the league has ever seen.

- A poor ST's unit.

You make it sound like Shanahan actually had this team going somewhere other than towards another Slowik-driven season of failure.

We're closer to being a contender now than we were this time last year, and it's not even that close.

McDaniels still has plenty to improve on, but how anyone can look at his first year here as a whole as anything but encouraging is beyond me.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:47 AM
Yes, cos just magically assembling a defense from nowhere is easy.



If what Nolan has done in one season is any indication, it seems that it can be done.

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 10:49 AM
Shanahan lost to Tom Cable and Russell in Denver, too. But I'm sure you have a good excuse for him.....

No excuses..Glad Shanny and Cutler are gone..
I loved when Bowlen fired Shanny as we keep losing games to inferior teams(SF,BUF,OAK).

Regarding cutler, he sucks and has no brain.

I want the new coach to break the tradition of losing games to inferior teams(especially in Nov/Dec when we are trying for a playoff spot).

Unfortunately, nothing has changed.
That's the reason some of the experts didn't believe us even when we started 6-0 and i don't blame them.

I want this losing tradition to go..it's really frustrating when we start fast and fade in the end.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:51 AM
McDaniels still has plenty to improve on, but how anyone can look at his first year here as a whole as anything but encouraging is beyond me.


I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone could look at dropping 6 of our last 8 games and being boggled that people are holding their heads in disbelief over the offense we threw down the pipes (and seem to continue to want to with the disbandment of the offensive line scheme that produced thousand yard back after thousand yard back for over a decade).

We dropped 6 of our last 8 games, and both our offense and our defense is struggling right now. There's plenty to be encouraged about. But there's also plenty to be concerned about. Just like last year. That's how it works when your team is a .500 team. Plenty of positive and negative to focus on.

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 10:51 AM
If what Nolan has done in one season is any indication, it seems that it can be done.

The problem is shanny is not ready to fire slowik and i am glad shanny is fired.
One playoff win in 10 years is not acceptable.

Dukes
12-22-2009, 10:52 AM
If what Nolan has done in one season is any indication, it seems that it can be done.

Not with Slowik in charge.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 10:53 AM
If what Nolan has done in one season is any indication, it seems that it can be done.

Except that Shanny was going to stick with his boyfriend Slowik.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:58 AM
I just have to laugh at the hypocrisy of people taking offense to McDaniels being criticized in his first season while they're still hammering nails into Slowiks wrists for the job he did in his first season - while at the same time bad mouthing the talent that he had to work with.

There's no argument that I can use to address this level of hypocrisy. People will believe what they will believe and only be fair to the point that they want to be.

Which drives to my point: people are going to believe what they want to believe about where our last 8-8 team was headed, and where the current (seeming) 8-8 team is headed. I'd like to think that we're on our way up. But our offense has a long ways to go to be a playoff calibre offense.

bpc
12-22-2009, 10:58 AM
I think people calling for McDaniels to be fired are foolish. This is only his first year, he should probably be given three unless there are more controversial outbreaks which impede his ability to help this team improve.

I think what people are saying or asking, is that we're 2-6 over our last 8, trending our way out of the playoffs, they want him to pull his head out of his ass with some of the ridiculous playcalling and biasness when making personnel decisions.

If Hillis shouldn't be playing, carefully let us know why. If he's constantly late, doesn't show the ability to hold information like the playbook (all speculation by the way), just say that and we'll get off his back.

I think those spending thousands of dollars on tickets to games, season tickets, planefare and apparel deserve to understand what's going on with this team.

You all say "Well Shanahan was arrogant, he didn't have to answer about players, why should McD?". Well that's absurd to start off with. While vague with his answers, Shanahan would shoot straight about players. I remember Chris Howard when he was a rookie here, and how impressive he was but he couldn't hold the ball. When he got in the doghouse Mike was asked about how come he wasn't playing and he said straight up, "he can't hold the football, and until he can, he's not playing." I think he was cut that offseason.

Man up McD, why is Hillis not playing? The question needs to be asked and if McD was a man, and more than just a Napoleanic tyrant running his first show, he would spill the beans.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 11:01 AM
I just have to laugh at the hypocrisy of people taking offense to McDaniels being criticized in his first season while they're still hammering nails into Slowiks wrists for the job he did in his first season - while at the same time bad mouthing the talent that he had to work with.

There's no argument that I can use to address this level of hypocrisy. People will believe what they will believe and only be fair to the point that they want to be.

Because there is no hypocrisy in it. Slowik actually ran the defense from week 6 or so of 2007 and managed to make the 2008 defense all that much worse. He's also been a failure EVERYWHERE he's been.

There is no comparison to him and McDaniels.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:02 AM
I just have to laugh at the hypocrisy of people taking offense to McDaniels being criticized in his first season while they're still hammering nails into Slowiks wrists for the job he did in his first season - while at the same time bad mouthing the talent that he had to work with.

There's no argument that I can use to address this level of hypocrisy. People will believe what they will believe and only be fair to the point that they want to be.

GREAT POINT! Don't point out hypocrisy to these folks though, it will get them madder than a hornets nest!

McD's status as a offensive guru is more of a failure to me, within what our offense was, vs. Slowik's defensive failure last year.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:03 AM
Because there is no hypocrisy in it. Slowik actually ran the defense from week 6 or so of 2007 and managed to make the 2008 defense all that much worse. He's also been a failure EVERYWHERE he's been.

There is no comparison to him and McDaniels.

Sure there is... neither have won super bowls as a coordinator or head coach.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 11:03 AM
Sure there is... neither have won super bowls as a coordinator or head coach.

That's it? That's the best link you can find between the two of them?

Sad.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:04 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up,

Prove it.

All opinions aside.

Just simply prove that statement.

Or, save yourself the time and use it better elsewhere, because you can't.


We had the worst defense in football last year, which was somehow even worse than the prior year... and the 16th ranked scoring offense.

An 8-8 finish (which was really 7-9) was actually worse than the prior year, and certainly way worse than a couple years earlier when we went to the AFCCG.

Show me proof that the team was on the upswing.

Pony Boy
12-22-2009, 11:04 AM
There wouldn't be a problem if the win/loss were flip-flopped... Had we lost games early and won the last six we would be dancing in the street.... I can swallow the 8-8 for a first year coach, it's just the way he did it that sucks....

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:05 AM
Because there is no hypocrisy in it. Slowik actually ran the defense from week 6 or so of 2007 and managed to make the 2008 defense all that much worse. He's also been a failure EVERYWHERE he's been.

There is no comparison to him and McDaniels.


You are misinformed. Slowik ran Bates scheme in 2007. He installed his own scheme in 2008. It was a new scheme with new terminology installed from the ground up that offseason. In August, Slowik told the media straight up that the personnel to run the scheme wasn't there, but they've got some veterans in place to lay the informational foundation and build from there.

Whatever you want to say about the job he did on other teams doesn't interest me. I believe coaches have the capacity to learn just like everywhere else, and deserve a chance to prove it once they're in a new job.

I don't know if Slowik was going to succeed here or not. I just know he didn't really get the chance to.

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 11:05 AM
The team Shanahan inherited was a shambles outside of the offense.

Old AND horrible defense.

No draft pick until the 4th round.

Undecided at RB until the eve of the first game.

Totally different situation in 1995 versus 2009.

Thank God he didn't trade Elway for Erik Kramer or whoever was the Bears QB.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:08 AM
Prove it.

All opinions aside.

Just simply prove that statement.

Or, save yourself the time and use it better elsewhere, because you can't.


We had the worst defense in football last year, which was somehow even worse than the prior year... and the 16th ranked scoring offense.

An 8-8 finish (which was really 7-9) was actually worse than the prior year, and certainly way worse than a couple years earlier when we went to the AFCCG.

Show me proof that the team was on the upswing.


You know what I can prove? I can prove that you thought our offense was set, and that all we needed to do was plug a defense onto it. I can prove that you were saying different things about Cutler then than you are saying now.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 11:09 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Not sure where your getting this from. The Broncos were NOT going anywhere. In fact, I'd say they were wallowing in mediocrity which is not good and certainly not "on the way up."

This is nothing more than your opinion and it's not based on any concrete evidence.

DenverBrit
12-22-2009, 11:09 AM
I think people calling for McDaniels to be fired are foolish. This is only his first year, he should probably be given three unless there are more controversial outbreaks which impede his ability to help this team improve.

I think what people are saying or asking, is that we're 2-6 over our last 8, trending our way out of the playoffs, they want him to pull his head out of his ass with some of the ridiculous playcalling and biasness when making personnel decisions.

If Hillis shouldn't be playing, carefully let us know why. If he's constantly late, doesn't show the ability to hold information like the playbook (all speculation by the way), just say that and we'll get off his back.

I think those spending thousands of dollars on tickets to games, season tickets, planefare and apparel deserve to understand what's going on with this team.

You all say "Well Shanahan was arrogant, he didn't have to answer about players, why should McD?". Well that's absurd to start off with. While vague with his answers, Shanahan would shoot straight about players. I remember Chris Howard when he was a rookie here, and how impressive he was but he couldn't hold the ball. When he got in the doghouse Mike was asked about how come he wasn't playing and he said straight up, "he can't hold the football, and until he can, he's not playing." I think he was cut that offseason.

Man up McD, why is Hillis not playing? The question needs to be asked and if McD was a man, and more than just a Napoleanic tyrant running his first show, he would spill the beans.

What do you expect McD to say? "Hillis is as dumb as a box of rocks"?

Hillis was 7th string when Shanny had him, it was only when he was the last RB standing that he got his chance.

Why all the focus on why Hillis isn't playing? Do you think maybe Bobby Turner has some say in which RB plays?

Or is he now also a tyrant??

BigPlayShay
12-22-2009, 11:10 AM
Slowick:

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24champ
12-22-2009, 11:11 AM
McDaniels earned himself another 2-3 years. Folks, we are in transition on offense because McDaniels inherited a west coast offense and are currently moving to the "Erhardt-Perkins" offense. Terminology is different, the required players are different and more difficult to grasp than the WCO.

I understand why McDaniels doesn't want to adjust the offense to the players he has. The reason he doesn't adjust, those players he is adjusting for, aren't going to be here after this season is over. So it's full steam ahead as far as McDaniels is concerned. The players that do fit the offense need the full experience of it since this is the offense we will operate under.

It's why I believe theres going to be another overhaul on the offense across the board, including coaches. I think Weis would be an upgrade as OC since he knows this current system so well.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:12 AM
I'd like to think that we're on our way up. But our offense has a long ways to go to be a playoff calibre offense.

Aw c'mon TJ, stop being so dramatic.

You just said we were well on our way of building a Super Bowl caliber offense, then two seconds later say we have a long ways to go to be a playoff calibre offense.

The offense this year shares the same struggles with the Shanahan/Cutler offense: short yardage and redzone offense. The only difference this year is that the offense isn't as dazzling between the 20's, so there's no loser stat to point to that gives people comfort. We were 16th in scoring last year. Do you consider that a Super Bowl calibre offense?

It's the first year for the coach, QB, and scheme. You conveniently like to leave out that the offense last year had the benefit of a few year's worth of learning and fine-tuning to draw on. This is year 1 for all involved. If by year 3in this offense we still cant score in the redzone and get the tough yardage, then the criticism will be swift and warranted. If we are to go into this offseason 8-8, i'll still be more optimisitc going into next year then I was last year at this time.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:13 AM
common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Not common belief. Everyone has opinions, and we certainly DID "plug in" a defense (whatever that means) and we certainly DID become more competitive, immediately.

But, please provide the factual information that we were a team on the upswing.

Apparently, Mr. Bowlen disagreed with you.

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 11:14 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Srsly?

jhns
12-22-2009, 11:15 AM
I am not one that says he needs fires now but if you are going to compare, you are missing some points. McD had 5 picks in the first two rounds. This alone makes the rebuild far easier for McD than it was for Shanny. Can you tell me how many early picks we had in Shanahans first year?

Other than that, I would watch trying this comparison. Shanahan had this team turned into one of the best ever in no time. They won the most games ever in a 3 season span and also won back to back SBs. If McD can get half of that done, he will get the same respect Shanahan gets from most(I don't get how it isn't all) fans. Until then, people will question what he is doing.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:16 AM
Do you think maybe Bobby Turner has some say in which RB plays?



I don't think that there's any particularly strong reason to believe that he does.

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 11:17 AM
IIf Hillis shouldn't be playing, carefully let us know why. If he's constantly late, doesn't show the ability to hold information like the playbook (all speculation by the way), just say that and we'll get off his back.

Man up McD, why is Hillis not playing? The question needs to be asked and if McD was a man, and more than just a Napoleanic tyrant running his first show, he would spill the beans.

:rofl:

Like McD cares what idiot internet fanboys think. Some of you guys have serious delusions of granduer. hahaha

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 11:17 AM
What does Bobby Turner care?

Him and Dennison are on a flight to DC in the near future.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:18 AM
I am not one that says he needs fires now but if you are going to compare, you are missing some points. McD had 5 picks in the first two rounds. This alone makes the rebuild far easier for McD than it was for Shanny. Can you tell me how many early picks we had in Shanahans first year?

Other than that, I would watch trying this comparison. Shanahan had this team turned into one of the best ever in no time. They won the most games ever in a 3 season span and also won back to back SBs. If McD can get half of that done, he will get the same respect Shanahan gets from most(I don't get how it isn't all) fans. Until then, people will question what he is doing.

You're right.

If only McDaniels had inherited John Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, and Gary Zimmerman type players like Shanahan did, he might've turned it around the same way as well.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:18 AM
Aw c'mon TJ, stop being so dramatic.

You just said we were well on our way of building a Super Bowl caliber offense, then two seconds later say we have a long ways to go to be a playoff calibre offense.



We lost our quarterback. We're losing our offensive line. We might as well have lost Scheffler, Stokley, and Royal for what they're producing in this offense right now. And for all we know, we're going to lose Brandon Marshall.

Stop being so dramatic? There's a lot of drama going on with our offense. Hadn't you noticed?

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:19 AM
You're right.

If only McDaniels had inherited John Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, and Gary Zimmerman type players like Shanahan did, he might've turned it around the same way as well.

Shanahan brought Zimmerman in from Minnesota.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
I don't think that there's any particularly strong reason to believe that he does.

I've felt for some time that both Turner and Dennison are lameduck coaches. No doubt in my mind they are gone after the season and that was before Shanahan decided he was going to make his return, most likely in Washington.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
I just have to laugh at the hypocrisy of people taking offense to McDaniels being criticized in his first season while they're still hammering nails into Slowiks wrists for the job he did in his first season - while at the same time bad mouthing the talent that he had to work with.

There's no argument that I can use to address this level of hypocrisy. People will believe what they will believe and only be fair to the point that they want to be.

Which drives to my point: people are going to believe what they want to believe about where our last 8-8 team was headed, and where the current (seeming) 8-8 team is headed. I'd like to think that we're on our way up. But our offense has a long ways to go to be a playoff calibre offense.

Wait a minute cowboy. Slowick ruined two defenses before he ever came to Denver. There was a trend there.

it's not like Bates who was fired after one season after showing -- in two stops -- that his defenses made huge strides from year one to year two.

BigPlayShay
12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
Shanahan brought Zimmerman in from Minnesota.

Wade Phillips brought Zim in from Minnesota in 1993. Wade also put Rod Smith and Tom Nalen on the Practice Squad in 94.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
We lost our quarterback. We're losing our offensive line. We might as well have lost Scheffler, Stokley, and Royal for what they're producing in this offense right now. And for all we know, we're going to lose Brandon Marshall.

Stop being so dramatic? There's a lot of drama going on with our offense. Hadn't you noticed?

Did you notice the rest of my post that you decided to ignore, or did cherrypicking the first few lines suffice for you?

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
I am not one that says he needs fires now but if you are going to compare, you are missing some points. McD had 5 picks in the first two rounds. This alone makes the rebuild far easier for McD than it was for Shanny. Can you tell me how many early picks we had in Shanahans first year?

Other than that, I would watch trying this comparison. Shanahan had this team turned into one of the best ever in no time. They won the most games ever in a 3 season span and also won back to back SBs. If McD can get half of that done, he will get the same respect Shanahan gets from most(I don't get how it isn't all) fans. Until then, people will question what he is doing.


Let me help you out jhns because you seem like a good poster, but you very often miss key things about the Broncos:

Shanny built the team through FA, period. When he took over the team, the NFL was in it's first few years of free agency. Shanny took advantage of this and Bowlen opened up the checkbook.

That's how Shanny's teams went from blah to fantastic. That and a few key draft picks like TD.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Shanahan brought Zimmerman in from Minnesota.

Wrong.

24champ
12-22-2009, 11:22 AM
What does Bobby Turner care?

Him and Dennison are on a flight to DC in the near future.

That's my thought as well. Weis is available, we can move McCoy to some other coaching slot.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:22 AM
Wait a minute cowboy. Slowick ruined two defenses before he ever came to Denver. There was a trend there.

I understand that, and I don't blame anyone for having doubts about the guy. Hell, I had doubts about the guy. I just think that he deserved an honest shot to turn it around, and don't believe he was given that honest shot. That's all.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:23 AM
Did you notice the rest of my post that you decided to ignore, or did cherrypicking the first few lines suffice for you?

Why bother with the entire post when the first line is tragically flawed to the point of being obliterated?

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 11:24 AM
You're right.

If only McDaniels had inherited John Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, and Gary Zimmerman type players like Shanahan did, he might've turned it around the same way as well.

Excellent point.

Steve Atwater anyone?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 11:25 AM
I understand that, and I don't blame anyone for having doubts about the guy. Hell, I had doubts about the guy. I just think that he deserved an honest shot to turn it around, and don't believe he was given that honest shot. That's all.

Perhaps. I don't think he earned an honest shot, whereas I think Bates did. But Shanahan canned Bates (who had a track record of success) and was going to keep Slowick... that's just astounding.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:26 AM
Why bother with the entire post when the first line is tragically flawed to the point of being obliterated?

Yep, typical response from you TJ.

Why don't you patronize me anyway and tell me how the rest is tragically flawed as well.

24champ
12-22-2009, 11:28 AM
We lost our quarterback. We're losing our offensive line. We might as well have lost Scheffler, Stokley, and Royal for what they're producing in this offense right now. And for all we know, we're going to lose Brandon Marshall.

Stop being so dramatic? There's a lot of drama going on with our offense. Hadn't you noticed?

It's an offense in transition, specifically with the offensive line.

McDaniels will get the players that fit this offense in the upcoming offseason. Anyone that thought this transition was going to be smooth going, was kidding themselves.

BigPlayShay
12-22-2009, 11:28 AM
Wade Phillips brought Zim in from Minnesota in 1993. Wade also put Rod Smith and Tom Nalen on the Practice Squad in 94.

I am quoting myself because I forgot to mention that Wade was also responsible for bringing in Ray Crockett and Brian Habib.

It is also interesting to note the parallels with 1995 in that Shanny changed both Offensive and Defensive systems.

DenverBrit
12-22-2009, 11:30 AM
I don't think that there's any particularly strong reason to believe that he does.

You just haven't got over Shanny being fired, have you. :peace:

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 11:30 AM
Shanahan never did give Bates a fair shot.

However, he also gave him DJ Williams at MLB and total garbage at DT.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:31 AM
Perhaps. I don't think he earned an honest shot, whereas I think Bates did. But Shanahan canned Bates (who had a track record of success) and was going to keep Slowick... that's just astounding.

Well, I voiced the opinion that Shanahan was making a tragic mistake when he fired Coyer, and I think that history proved that take to be right. I don't think either Bates or Slowik were given a chance to work. I thought the arrangement they had was pretty awkward to begin with.

I don't know what Shanahan saw in Slowik, except that he seemed to me to be a Greg Robinson clone (who I hated) and he won two Superbowls with Greg Robinson.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 11:32 AM
I am quoting myself because I forgot to mention that Wade was also responsible for bringing in Ray Crockett and Brian Habib.

The Broncos were not devoid of talent, they just needed the right coach at the right time and that coach was Mike Shanahan.

Also, there was a sense of urgency to win because of Elway's age. The team brought in some great FAs, and built around the talent that was already there. They had the best QB in the game and they were focused.

What happened? Wins happened and championships happened. It was the Golden Age of the Denver Broncos.

DenverBrit
12-22-2009, 11:32 AM
I understand that, and I don't blame anyone for having doubts about the guy. Hell, I had doubts about the guy. I just think that he deserved an honest shot to turn it around, and don't believe he was given that honest shot. That's all.


Don't you think the same consideration be given the new regime??

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 11:33 AM
Well, I voiced the opinion that Shanahan was making a tragic mistake when he fired Coyer, and I think that history proved that take to be right. I don't think either Bates or Slowik were given a chance to work. I thought the arrangement they had was pretty awkward to begin with.

I don't know what Shanahan saw in Slowik, except that he seemed to me to be a Greg Robinson clone (who I hated) and he won two Superbowls with Greg Robinson.

Absolutely on Coyer. Had I been a member of this site at that time, I would have strongly agreed with you. Shanahan seemed to make decisions based on very poor or limited information (see the firing of Coyer, the drafting of Moss and Middlebrooks and O'Neal, the drafting of Cutler), and that, in my opinion, is why he needed to go.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:33 AM
You just haven't got over Shanny being fired, have you. :peace:


No my friend. I really haven't. And probably never will. I honestly believed we were going to win another one with the guy and still do to this day.

DBroncos4life
12-22-2009, 11:34 AM
What about the people that claimed we didn't NEED Marshall because we already had a number one WR in Royal? Most of the people backing Marshall backed Cutler and posters claiming Marshall wasn't the best WR on the team didn't care for Cutler. Truth of the matter is without Marshall we are a sub .500 team and Royal doesn't even look like a number three WR in this new awesome so complicated offense that took two of the best parts of our O (O-line and WR) and turned it to crap.

As pointed out already our O is down in EVERY phase of the game. RZ scoring, points per game, yards, points per play, 3rd down % etc, etc. True Int's are down for 18 last year to 8 so far this year but that is the only improvement we have to show for this season on O. Lets not over look the fact that we maybe getting a new OC, line coach and RB coach this off-season so the change at coaching still continues.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 11:34 AM
No my friend. I really haven't. And probably never will. I honestly believed we were going to win another one with the guy and still do to this day.

Really? On what timeline?

I know we've had our disagreements, but I've always seen you as a pretty smart dude... and this just astounds me.

colonelbeef
12-22-2009, 11:34 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Exactly. The situations are not analogous whatsoever. That was an old team with a total lack of talent and no picks or money to spend. This was a young team with lots of picks, lots of money, and lots of young talent.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:35 AM
Don't you think the same consideration be given the new regime??

Yes. And I'm giving them that same consideration. But I'm also trying to give those who are skeptical a moderate voice. I think their skepticism is founded - just like I think the skepticism on Slowik was founded.

jhns
12-22-2009, 11:35 AM
You're right.

If only McDaniels had inherited John Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, and Gary Zimmerman type players like Shanahan did, he might've turned it around the same way as well.

Riiiight. Clady and Marshall are better than Smith and Zimmerman. The only thing they need to do now is have a long career and it won't be a question. Royal, Sheffler, Graham, Stokley, Harris, and Kuper also make it a far better core of offensive players than Shanny got. The only thing not comparable is Elway. I have tried to say we should look for a top flight QB. Every time I do, you all cry about it. I'm not sure what I can even say to that.

MplsBronco
12-22-2009, 11:36 AM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Good god, that is such a load of crap that you continue to spew. Again, what was the score of Shanny's last game? On the way up?

Bronco LB52
12-22-2009, 11:37 AM
Shanahan swept the Raiders in his first year. McDaniels went 1-1 against those turds.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:37 AM
Really? On what timeline?

I know we've had our disagreements, but I've always seen you as a pretty smart dude... and this just astounds me.


I think we were headed into year three of a five year arc.

DenverBrit
12-22-2009, 11:40 AM
Yes. And I'm giving them that same consideration. But I'm also trying to give those who are skeptical a moderate voice. I think their skepticism is founded - just like I think the skepticism on Slowik was founded.

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out.

There has been a lot of change and upheaval this year, it will take time for all the pieces to be in the right place.

In the meantime, Jay is doing wonders for our first round pick.

McPoopyPants called that one correctly. ;D

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:40 AM
I hope people will go back through and read my posts and understand that I'm not in favor of firing Josh McDaniels. Just the opposite. My intentions in this thread is merely to provide a moderate voice to balance the many crazed ones that get the most attention.

Firing McDaniels shouldn't even be on the table. However discussing where the shortcomings are most definitely should.

24champ
12-22-2009, 11:41 AM
I have tried to say we should look for a top flight QB. Every time I do, you all cry about it.

Top-flight QB's don't exactly grow on trees jhns.


I'm ok with Orton for another year (Franchise tag), which means we will have to bite the bullet on money, but I can live with that. Last thing you want to do is pull a Brian Griese and get stuck with a big contract for 4-5 years.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:41 AM
Riiiight. Clady and Marshall are better than Smith and Zimmerman. The only thing they need to do now is have a long career and it won't be a question. Royal, Sheffler, Graham, Stokley, Harris, and Kuper also make it a far better core of offensive players than Shanny got. The only thing not comparable is Elway. I have tried to say we should look for a top flight QB. Every time I do, you all cry about it. I'm not sure what I can even say to that.

Wow, I didn't realize that Clady and Marshall were already better than a certified Hall of Famer, and one who should be.

I guess those offenses weren't that good then since you're more than favorably comparing this offense to those. And how convenient to put Elway there as a throw in, as if he was just another cog in the machine.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:42 AM
I also understand that my outburst against Bowlen while I was in shock over the Shanahan firing didn't help my image as a moderate voice. But all I can do is shrug and move forward step by step.

MplsBronco
12-22-2009, 11:42 AM
The team Shanahan inherited was a shambles outside of the offense.

Old AND horrible defense.

No draft pick until the 4th round.

Undecided at RB until the eve of the first game.

Totally different situation in 1995 versus 2009.

Thank God he didn't trade Elway for Erik Kramer or whoever was the Bears QB.

Oh so now Cutler=Elway? Got it.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:45 AM
Oh so now Cutler=Elway? Got it.

:rofl:

MplsBronco
12-22-2009, 11:49 AM
I hope people will go back through and read my posts and understand that I'm not in favor of firing Josh McDaniels. Just the opposite. My intentions in this thread is merely to provide a moderate voice to balance the many crazed ones that get the most attention.

Firing McDaniels shouldn't even be on the table. However discussing where the shortcomings are most definitely should.

No, your point is simply that McD should never have been hired in the first place.

jhns
12-22-2009, 11:49 AM
Top-flight QB's don't exactly grow on trees jhns.


I'm ok with Orton for another year (Franchise tag), which means we will have to bite the bullet on money, but I can live with that. Last thing you want to do is pull a Brian Griese and get stuck with a big contract for 4-5 years.

I get that. You don't exactly find them by not looking though...

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 11:50 AM
Broncos 1994 roster had 4 Probowlers:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1994_roster.htm


Broncos 2008 roster had 3 Probowlers, all on offense:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008_roster.htm

So, to say Shanny didn't inherit talent and McD did, is total revisionist history.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:51 AM
Broncos 1994 roster had 4 Probowlers:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1994_roster.htm


Broncos 2008 roster had 3 Probowlers, all on offense:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008_roster.htm

So, to say Shanny didn't inherit talent and McD did, is total revisionist history.




Oops.

Crap, we fired Wade when the team was "on the upswing!!"

Hilarious!

chex
12-22-2009, 11:51 AM
I get that. You don't exactly find them by not looking though...

Who says we aren't looking? Did you expect McDaniels to find Peyton Manning under his Christmas tree? I guess half the teams in the league aren't looking either.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 11:53 AM
No, your point is simply that McD should never have been hired in the first place.

It is?

MplsBronco
12-22-2009, 11:54 AM
It is?

Shanny should never have been fired, hence McD should never have been hired. Follow?

jhns
12-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Wow, I didn't realize that Clady and Marshall were already better than a certified Hall of Famer, and one who should be.

I guess those offenses weren't that good then since you're more than favorably comparing this offense to those. And how convenient to put Elway there as a throw in, as if he was just another cog in the machine.

Are you serious? Smith was never what Marshall is now. These two do not have better careers(which is what you are saying) as they haven't been around very long. They are better and play better though. I don't know what to tell you if you don't agree with that. I would suggest watching them.

As for Elway, I didn't say he was a throw in. You act as though QB is something important here but get pissed when I say we need to replace Orton. So which is it? How can you get mad at people saying we should look for a better QB and then have the nerve to say we don't have a good one and that a good one is the difference in our SBs?

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 11:59 AM
Oh so now Cutler=Elway? Got it.

Didn't say that.

LOL

jhns
12-22-2009, 12:05 PM
Who says we aren't looking? Did you expect McDaniels to find Peyton Manning under his Christmas tree? I guess half the teams in the league aren't looking either.

Do you even read what you are replying to? Try to make some sense. When did I say anything about the team not looking? This is talk about the future. You can really tell christmas break is here.

chex
12-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Are you serious? Smith was never what Marshall is now. These two do not have better careers(which is what you are saying) as they haven't been around very long. They are better and play better though. I don't know what to tell you if you don't agree with that. I would suggest watching them.

As for Elway, I didn't say he was a throw in. You act as though QB is something important here but get pissed when I say we need to replace Orton. So which is it? How can you get mad at people saying we should look for a better QB and then have the nerve to say we don't have a good one and that a good one is the difference in our SBs?

Smith was never the most talented receiver of his day, just the hardest working, which gave him a HOF career. Plenty of WR's who came and went during his playing days had more talent. Just because Marshall is more talented, doesn't make him a better WR. When Marshall plays at a high level for the number of years Smith did, when he becomes the vocal leader that Smith was, then yeah, he'll be better. By your own admission, you know comparing the two now is ill-conceived.

And as for Orton, I never said he was the greatest and should never be replaced. What I did say, and continue to say is, he's the best QB for this team right now, as in, who will you find to be a marked improvement yoy? You're running around here like 1. we traded God's gift to the NFL, and 2. we've been letting franchise QB's whiz by us like cars on a freeway. You think just throwing a top 10 pick at a QB will make us instantly better? You better be damn well sure if you do that he's the one, because THAT is what sets franchises back a decade.

MplsBronco
12-22-2009, 12:08 PM
Didn't say that.

LOL

It was implied.

chex
12-22-2009, 12:08 PM
Do you even read what you are replying to? Try to make some sense. When did I say anything about the team not looking? This is talk about the future. You can really tell christmas break is here.

Hmmm.. you wrote in response that it doesn't help when a team doesn't look for a QB, which implies that we aren't, based on your incessant whining year to date, so yeah, I'd say my response to you was inline.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 12:10 PM
Shanny should never have been fired, hence McD should never have been hired. Follow?

Yeah, but Shanahan was fired. And at that point, someone had to be hired, regardless of what I thought of the Shanahan firing.

I think you're stretching logic a little to make whatever point you're trying to make.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 12:11 PM
Yeah, but Shanahan was fired. And at that point, someone had to be hired, regardless of what I thought of the Shanahan firing.

I think you're stretching logic a little to make whatever point you're trying to make.

i'm not certain he/she/it has a point.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 12:13 PM
1995 roster, Shanny brought in Schlereth, McCaffrey and drafted TD. Two great FAs and one great draft pick:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1995_roster.htm

Maa Tunavasa was also added to the defense.

jhns
12-22-2009, 12:14 PM
Hmmm.. you wrote in response that it doesn't help when a team doesn't look for a QB, which implies that we aren't, based on your incessant whining year to date, so yeah, I'd say my response to you was inline.

It was a conversation about what people here are saying, not what the franchise is doing. Try again.

rastaman
12-22-2009, 12:15 PM
What do you expect McD to say? "Hillis is as dumb as a box of rocks"?

Hillis was 7th string when Shanny had him, it was only when he was the last RB standing that he got his chance.

Why all the focus on why Hillis isn't playing? Do you think maybe Bobby Turner has some say in which RB plays?

Or is he now also a tyrant??

So how much of a fuss or fight or compensation should McD insist upon should:

A.) Hillis in the offseason ask for his outright release from the Bronco?

B.) What is his trade value-compensation for a non-starting player drafted in the 7th round?

C. Screw It!.....Just cut Hillis outright?

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 12:15 PM
1996 roster, Shanahan added through FA Bill Romanowski and Alfred Williams:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1996_roster.htm

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 12:19 PM
1997 roster Shanny brought in through FA, Howard Griffith and Neil Smith:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1997_roster.htm

rastaman
12-22-2009, 12:19 PM
:rofl:

Orton = ?

:wiggle:

What successful QB in the NFL OVER the last 15 years does Orton remind you of:

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 12:22 PM
The rest is history.

Point being, Shanny built the team through some great FA acquisitions and a few solid draft picks.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 12:24 PM
You are misinformed. Slowik ran Bates scheme in 2007. He installed his own scheme in 2008. It was a new scheme with new terminology installed from the ground up that offseason. In August, Slowik told the media straight up that the personnel to run the scheme wasn't there, but they've got some veterans in place to lay the informational foundation and build from there. You call what we trotted out last year a "scheme"? How many flippin' fronts did we run, including that atrocious 4-4 defense that we used against Carolina?

That wasn't a scheme. It was the most inept DC in the league throwing anything he could against the wall.

Whatever you want to say about the job he did on other teams doesn't interest me. I believe coaches have the capacity to learn just like everywhere else, and deserve a chance to prove it once they're in a new job.

I don't know if Slowik was going to succeed here or not. I just know he didn't really get the chance to. I agree with that, but Slowik failed in Chicago, Cleveland and Green Bay. How many chances does he get before you admit he just flat out sucks as a coordinator?

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 12:25 PM
So how much of a fuss or fight or compensation should McD insist upon should:

A.) Hillis in the offseason ask for his outright release from the Bronco?

B.) What is his trade value-compensation for a non-starting player drafted in the 7th round?

C. Screw It!.....Just cut Hillis outright?

He's going to try to trade Hillis for that 2010 first rounder he gave away to Seattle.

chex
12-22-2009, 12:25 PM
It was a conversation about what people here are saying, not what the franchise is doing. Try again.

You said:

I have tried to say we should look for a top flight QB.


Top-flight QB's don't exactly grow on trees jhns.


I'm ok with Orton for another year (Franchise tag), which means we will have to bite the bullet on money, but I can live with that. Last thing you want to do is pull a Brian Griese and get stuck with a big contract for 4-5 years.

You responded:

I get that. You don't exactly find them by not looking though...

So you say we should look for top flight QB's, someone responds to you that they don't grow on trees, and you answer that you don't find them by not looking for them. You were talking about the Broncos directly, when you say "we" in your original statement, so tell me how I got your generalization of the comment wrong.

I tried again.

jhns
12-22-2009, 12:26 PM
Smith was never the most talented receiver of his day, just the hardest working, which gave him a HOF career. Plenty of WR's who came and went during his playing days had more talent. Just because Marshall is more talented, doesn't make him a better WR. When Marshall plays at a high level for the number of years Smith did, when he becomes the vocal leader that Smith was, then yeah, he'll be better. By your own admission, you know comparing the two now is ill-conceived.

And as for Orton, I never said he was the greatest and should never be replaced. What I did say, and continue to say is, he's the best QB for this team right now, as in, who will you find to be a marked improvement yoy? You're running around here like 1. we traded God's gift to the NFL, and 2. we've been letting franchise QB's whiz by us like cars on a freeway. You think just throwing a top 10 pick at a QB will make us instantly better? You better be damn well sure if you do that he's the one, because THAT is what sets franchises back a decade.

1) I never said those guys had better careers, I said they are better. There is a huge difference here and I'm not sure how you can get it confused in the first place. It is no comparison. Marshall is doing things Smith never did and he is still extremely young. Clady isn't a lot better than Zimmerman and may not be better with the new scheme. I can tell you that I don't remember ever watching a tackle only give up half a sack in his rookie year though. It isn't like that team came with a LT and this one had nothing.

2) Try finding me the last good thing I said about Cutler or bad thing I said about that trade. Shoot, try finding the last thing I said about Cutler period, other than to say you all need to move on at this point.

3) Now would be the time for you to show a single time I have said we should replace Orton before the season. You can also try showing when I have claimed we needed to use a first on a QB. Maybe this will validate your admitted trolling of my posts. Then again, you will probably just realize that you don't know how to read.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 12:28 PM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

After that "NFL record setting" collapse last year, I don't know how you can argue that the Broncos were "on the way up." Slowik wasn't going anywhere, which means no defense was going to be "plugged in." It was blatantly obvious that the players were no longer buying into Shanahan's schtick. Bowlen might be a gutless drunk, but he was sober enough to make the only decision he could reasonably make. I still believe he first contemplated the decision after the collapse against the Raiders. The Charger ass-kicking just sealed the deal. Bowlen is a businessman. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses, even when you don't have something else lined up yet.

BTW, it looks very likely that we will make the playoffs. So you could say (perhaps not realistically, but you could say) we are "contenders" now.

jhns
12-22-2009, 12:30 PM
You said:






You responded:



So you say we should look for top flight QB's, someone responds to you that they don't grow on trees, and you answer that you don't find them by not looking for them. You were talking about the Broncos directly, when you say "we" in your original statement, so tell me how I got your generalization of the comment wrong.

I tried again.

So now what part of that even hints that I think the team isn't looking for a QB?

rastaman
12-22-2009, 12:38 PM
Plus, Phillips' teams went 9-7 and 8-8, so Shahanan hardly improved the record of the team that first year.

Let's get to reality. The bozos calling for McDaniels' head are mostly the ones who called for it last summer, all the while predicting 4 wins and Orton leading the NFL in interceptions and things like that. Little did they know their boy hero Cutler would be the one doing that.

Shanahan also inherited a bad defense, as did McDaniels, but an offense that had been improving with Fassell as the OC under Phillips. But the Broncos had to win their last game at Oakland to just finish at 8-8 in Shahanan's first season. Were people calling for his head? Not that I remember.

It would help if someone people started thinking with their heads.

Oh no, Orton can't throw and has a weak arm. Yeah, and Drew Brees has a cannon doesn't he. Please, like that is the most important thing in a QB. For an amateur, unemployed scout I guess it would.

Ph no, Alphonso Smith can't play. Yeah, rookie CB's who get sporadic playing time all year struggle. What a newsflash, that's just never happens. Give up on a guy already. Pathetic!

Oh, give Hillis more carries. Yeah, a guy who does good remembering what day of the week it is. Whatever. Would be a nice weapon to have at FB if he can remember what he's supposed to do.

You want o-line improvement, finally get rid of Dennison. Never been a fan of his, going back to his days as special teams coach and the lousy job he did there.

The DL needs more help, that's very clear. If not going to get to the QB very often, then at least need to be stout run stuffers.

This team obviously needs more talent, but since Shahanan got more than a year(and he even had previous head coaching experience) then how about giving McDaniels more time as well. I know the irrational types won't since have been disgustingly reveling in every defeat this season, but I'd like to think there are more rational, level-headed people around who can think and have watched the game enough to know the deal.

Nice dodging around the reality. Point is when do the excuses and finger pointing end?

One thing is for sure McD has shown he arrogance, stubborness, ignorance, and egotism most 30 something year old HC's in the NFL have historicaly displayed. Its nothing new.

I expect the same behavior and questionable decision making by McD for the next few seasons when it comes to learning how to become an NFL HC. The 2009 season has shown that McD was in over his head. We still have the sophmore jinx for Ole McD to tread his way thru. His post game interviews aren't very convincing ethier. It takes time to master becoming a professional liar.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 12:40 PM
Nice dodging around the reality. Point is when do the excuses and finger pointing end?

One thing is for sure McD has shown he arrogance, stubborness, ignorance, and egotism most 30 something year old HC's in the NFL have historicaly displayed. Its nothing new.

I expect the same behavior and questionable decision making by McD for the next few seasons when it comes to learning how to become an NFL HC. The 2009 season has shown that McD was in over his head. We still have the sophmore jinx for Ole McD to tread his way thru. His post game interviews aren't very convincing ethier. It takes time to master becoming a professional liar.

You're in deep water. Need to swim back to shore.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Nice dodging around the reality. Point is when do the excuses and finger pointing end?

One thing is for sure McD has shown he arrogance, stubborness, ignorance, and egotism most 30 something year old HC's in the NFL have historicaly displayed. Its nothing new.

I expect the same behavior and questionable decision making by McD for the next few seasons when it comes to learning how to become an NFL HC. The 2009 season has shown that McD was in over his head. We still have the sophmore jinx for Ole McD to tread his way thru. His post game interviews aren't very convincing ethier. It takes time to master becoming a professional liar.

So, is McD the coaching version of your beloved Obama?

It's ok for a young President to be arrogant and self assured (because, yah know, in rasta's world the most powerful man in the world can do this) but when it comes to a young NFL HC, it's just total crap?

I see how you think, and I totally think your priorities are screwed up, but that's just me.

Sorry to point out these peculiarities in your opinions, but I had to do it. :wave:

2KBack
12-22-2009, 12:59 PM
I surprised anyone keeps talking about the supposed up and coming offense of last season. The 2008 Broncos scored a whooping 20.8 points a game over their last seven games. Currently in the last 7 games Denver scored 18.8, not good, either of them, but 2008 is not significantly better than 2009. Lest we forget, Denver managed a scoreboard burning 10 points against an inferior Oakland team in Mile High last season.

As for the comparison to Shanahan in 1995. It's a pretty good one in my opinion. Shanahan had more talent to work with, and was already familiar with many players, but the team was terribly inconsistent. Much like our own currently.

DenverBrit
12-22-2009, 01:04 PM
So how much of a fuss or fight or compensation should McD insist upon should:

A.) Hillis in the offseason ask for his outright release from the Bronco?

B.) What is his trade value-compensation for a non-starting player drafted in the 7th round?

C. Screw It!.....Just cut Hillis outright?

Just trade Hillis for a couple of first round picks.......or just franchise him. ;)

Taco John
12-22-2009, 01:05 PM
I agree with that, but Slowik failed in Chicago, Cleveland and Green Bay. How many chances does he get before you admit he just flat out sucks as a coordinator?

As far as I'm concerned, everyone gets one chance once they sign on in Denver. I think Slowik should have been given time to implement his system. Guys like you weren't willing to give him that. And now guys like you are thrashing around when other guys like you aren't willing to give Josh McDaniels the same opportunity.

My point is, you're battling guys like you here.

Popps
12-22-2009, 01:07 PM
Nice dodging around the reality. Point is when do the excuses and finger pointing end?.

What excuses do we need for an improved football team?

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 01:08 PM
As far as I'm concerned, everyone gets one chance once they sign on in Denver. I think Slowik should have been given time to implement his system. Guys like you weren't willing to give him that. And now guys like you are thrashing around when other guys like you aren't willing to give Josh McDaniels the same opportunity.

My point is, you're battling guys like you here.

I learned all I needed to know about Slowik when I saw him playing Champ Bailey and Dre Bly ten yards off the WR. :oyvey:

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 01:13 PM
As far as I'm concerned, everyone gets one chance once they sign on in Denver. I think Slowik should have been given time to implement his system. Guys like you weren't willing to give him that. And now guys like you are thrashing around when other guys like you aren't willing to give Josh McDaniels the same opportunity.

My point is, you're battling guys like you here.

Didn't Slowick have 2 full seasons as DC? Nolan has turned the defense around in less than one full season. Now of course, Nolan does not have Mike Shanahan as his boss/GM/HC and king of all that is Broncos.

Funny how good the defense got with the removal of Shanny and Slowick.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 02:04 PM
As far as I'm concerned, everyone gets one chance once they sign on in Denver. I think Slowik should have been given time to implement his system. Guys like you weren't willing to give him that. And now guys like you are thrashing around when other guys like you aren't willing to give Josh McDaniels the same opportunity.

My point is, you're battling guys like you here.

He was given time. A year and a half and things only got worse. Also how can you say he deserved time to implement his scheme when he didn't even begin that last year? Every week we were playing different style defenses with the only common denominator being the epic level of suck.

Comparing him to McDaniels? McDaniels was a successful position coach, coordinated the greatest offense in the history of the game and thus far has looked pretty good as a head coach. Slowik, on the other hand was a very good position coach who repeatedly failed as a coordinator and will almost certainly never get a shot at a head coaching gig.

So again, where is the comparison?

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 02:06 PM
Didn't Slowick have 2 full seasons as DC? Nolan has turned the defense around in less than one full season. Now of course, Nolan does not have Mike Shanahan as his boss/GM/HC and king of all that is Broncos.

Funny how good the defense got with the removal of Shanny and Slowick.

Exactly. The reason for that is not only Mike Nolan a great defensive coordinator, but he and McDaniels decided on a scheme to run, did the best job they could have getting the personnel for that scheme and then implemented it for better or worse.

Slowik made wholesale changes to his defenses week in and week out in desperation to find something that would work, and that's not the way you do things.

snowspot66
12-22-2009, 02:58 PM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Fully disagree with this. The defense was completely bottoming out and was set for another year of Slowik. The offense was in it's third year with Cutler and the younger guys playing and it wasn't any better than the previous two years. Put up lots of yards, turned the ball over more. It was treading water at best. Just like the entire team for the past decade.

Shanahan would not have fixed the defense. He never showed any ability towards doing that and keeping Slowik was proof that it would suck horribly for at least another year. If Shanahan had stuck around for another year we would already be eliminated from the playoffs.

OBF1
12-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Except that Shanny was going to stick with his boyfriend Slowik.

I thought Bronco Buff and bpc were shanny's love toys???

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 03:21 PM
If anyone think last year team is few pieces away from SB, please watch SD game last year.
I also think we lost to OAK by more than 2 touchdowns..
Last year's team is horrible.

Inkana7
12-22-2009, 07:17 PM
The problem is that McDaniels inherited a team on the way up, not the way down. I know that some people will probably balk at this, but just as many will agree with it.

Bowlen did McDaniels no favors with the way he split with Shanahan. We were in year two of a rebuild, and the common belief among Broncos fans was "all we need to do is plug a defense onto this offense, and we'll be contenders."

Are you ****ing kidding me? The 2008 Broncos were an abortion.

Popps
12-22-2009, 07:19 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me? The 2008 Broncos were an abortion.

Dude, didn't you catch the last game of 2008 in San Diego?


All part of the "rebuild."

Mr
12-22-2009, 07:28 PM
You can pull the 4 banger out of out of a K car and "rebuild" it.
Throw it back in and start her up.
Its still an effin K car.

El Minion
12-22-2009, 07:39 PM
Orton = ?

:wiggle:

What successful QB in the NFL OVER the last 15 years does Orton remind you of:

Jay Fiedler (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FiedJa00.htm)

Bronx33
12-22-2009, 07:46 PM
Dude, didn't you catch the last game of 2008 in San Diego?


All part of the "rebuild."




So it has some glitches...... Hilarious!

ZONA
12-22-2009, 11:02 PM
The problem is shanny is not ready to fire slowik and i am glad shanny is fired.
One playoff win in 10 years is not acceptable.

Regardless of how anybody spins it, the reason why Shanny was let go was just that. 1 playoff win in 10 years and the icing on the cake was losing 3 games at the end with a 3 game lead and missing the playoffs again. Shanny had his chances and didn't come through. It was time for change. Here we go again.

TonyR
12-23-2009, 09:17 AM
After that "NFL record setting" collapse last year, I don't know how you can argue that the Broncos were "on the way up."

Yep, I love the clowns who cling to this "on the way up" and "elite offense" garbage. Last year's team quit and got routed at home in a must win game at home to the Chargers in the regular season finale. As much as I don't want to remember that game it happened. Revisionist History 101.

TonyR
12-23-2009, 09:19 AM
I thought Bronco Buff and bpc were shanny's love toys???

Whatever happened to that Bronco Buff dude?

jhns
12-23-2009, 09:25 AM
Yep, I love the clowns who cling to this "on the way up" and "elite offense" garbage. Last year's team quit and got routed at home in a must win game at home to the Chargers in the regular season finale. As much as I don't want to remember that game it happened. Revisionist History 101.

Then we must not be on the way up still. 4 straight games of getting blown out by an average of 20 points and a loss to the Raiders... What, they played their hearts out to do that? No quit at all? Riiiight.

At least last years team had over half the starters injured by the time it starting giving up. Just because you lose bad doesn't mean the team quit or that you can't be on the way up.

WolfpackGuy
12-23-2009, 09:27 AM
Apparently, very few saw or choose to remember the 93 and 94 seasons.

BroncoSojia
12-23-2009, 09:28 AM
Yep, I love the clowns who cling to this "on the way up" and "elite offense" garbage. Last year's team quit and got routed at home in a must win game at home to the Chargers in the regular season finale. As much as I don't want to remember that game it happened. Revisionist History 101.

Didn't the same thing happen this year?

We quit and got routed at home in a must win game against the Chargers.

This year it was by 29 points, last year by 30.

We also lost a 3 game lead in our division, only this time the choke was earlier in the season.

McDman
12-23-2009, 09:34 AM
I just have to laugh at the hypocrisy of people taking offense to McDaniels being criticized in his first season while they're still hammering nails into Slowiks wrists for the job he did in his first season - while at the same time bad mouthing the talent that he had to work with.

There's no argument that I can use to address this level of hypocrisy. People will believe what they will believe and only be fair to the point that they want to be.

Which drives to my point: people are going to believe what they want to believe about where our last 8-8 team was headed, and where the current (seeming) 8-8 team is headed. I'd like to think that we're on our way up. But our offense has a long ways to go to be a playoff calibre offense.

Go look at Slowik's stats from other teams, they're just as bad as they were in Denver. The guy is absolutely miserable. The only way he'll succeed is if he goes to a team with tons of defensive talent.

TonyR
12-23-2009, 09:35 AM
Didn't the same thing happen this year?


Perhaps, but that doesn't change my point that last year's team wasn't some rising juggernaut like many of you want to believe. And remember that this year's team has two more games to perhaps do better.

barryr
12-23-2009, 10:09 AM
For what it's worth, I think it would be stupid to fire McDaniels right now. And I think people who start threads like this are addressing probably less than 5% of fans who think this would be a good idea. This thread is just as silly, IMO, as one calling for McDaniel's head at this point.

This from someone who actually believes this team was "on the way up" having one of the worst defenses not only in Bronco history, but league history and having just completed its 3rd season of not making the playoffs. On the way up? Yikes.

jhns
12-23-2009, 10:12 AM
This from someone who actually believes this team was "on the way up" having one of the worst defenses not only in Bronco history, but league history and having just completed its 3rd season of not making the playoffs. On the way up? Yikes.

It couldn't be the worst in league history. There were worse defenses last year.

DBroncos4life
12-23-2009, 10:20 AM
Apparently, very few saw or choose to remember the 93 and 94 seasons.

Wade's last year the O was 10th, Mike's first year the O finished 9. Mike apparantly didnt understand that the only way to build a team is the way McD is doing it.

barryr
12-23-2009, 10:25 AM
Looks like some have their Bronco history down well while others need a refresher course. Shanahan's moves to begin his Bronco coaching career were not all hits, plenty of mistakes were made, so putting McDaniels in a position where all of his moves are supposed to be great seems stupid to say the least.

Shanahan inherited a bad defense, but some could argue an offense that was "on the way up" considering Elway's numbers with Fassell and Phillips than with Reeves. But Shanahan's defense didn't start making major improvements until his 2nd year as coach, unlike McDaniels whose defense did it his 1st season.

I'm not saying McDaniels has been perfect, but nobody is, and seems some are expecting more from him than they even did Shanahan and that's plain ridiculous and irrational and there are some around that are simply so out of touch with reality it's rather sad since have to distort if not lie about things.

barryr
12-23-2009, 10:29 AM
It couldn't be the worst in league history. There were worse defenses last year.

Would be hard to believe since the Broncos had a defense that couldn't stop the run at all, had no pass rush to speak of(even Dumervil was MIA) couldn't stop 3rd down conversions, couldn't create any turnovers, (which the Broncos hadn't for quite a few years before last either)and spent at least half the game in confusion in not knowing if it's man or zone and who is covering who like was happening last season. Hard to imagine a worse defense than theirs and with the defenders let go from last season, most aren't even in the NFL anymore, much less playing for a team and making some kind of significant impact on their teams.

WolfpackGuy
12-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Wade's last year the O was 10th, Mike's first year the O finished 9. Mike apparantly didnt understand that the only way to build a team is the way McD is doing it.

Shanahan knew he had the talent on offense in place.

It took him two seasons to fix the defense.

broncofan7
12-23-2009, 12:44 PM
Perhaps, but that doesn't change my point that last year's team wasn't some rising juggernaut like many of you want to believe. And remember that this year's team has two more games to perhaps do better.

It's simple really, last year our best unit(QB/WR's) was YOUNG. This year--it's OLD (defensive secondary).....hence it is not rising.