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oubronco
12-22-2009, 08:02 AM
Paige: Moreno not in running to get job done for Broncos
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post


Perhaps the Broncos' rookie running back should be called No-Gain Moreno, or his name possibly should be written as Knwshn Mren.

Here are statistics the Broncos won't tell you, and you may not believe:

Of Knowshon Moreno's 224 runs this season, 36.6 percent have been stopped for 1, 0 or negative yards. A startling 23.7 percent of his rushes have produced a cumulative minus-39 yards.

Knowshon had no gain on five of his carries Sunday against the Raiders. He lost yardage on four attempts. He picked up 1 yard twice. His other eight runs resulted in 3, 8, 7, 5, 7, 8, 6 and 4 yards. Nineteen rushes for 42 yards, a 2.2-yard average.

No wonder the Broncos' offense is struggling, straggling, sprawling, straining, stressing. The running game is running aground with Moreno.

When will somebody admit it?

If Moreno, who has 879 yards with two games remaining, reaches 1,000 yards, he will have no honor among NFL runners.

Real rushers don't fail to surpass 100 yards once in a season. Real running backs have at least two runs in the 30-plus category in a season. Real members of the Broncos' 1,000-yard club don't have five games in which they net fewer than 50 yards, or 11 games in which they have negative plays, or five games in which their longest run is not in double digits.

Welcome to the NFL; this isn't the SEC.

And Knowshon held out for more or Moreno money.

Sure, he's a rookie, and he's getting his footing, and he doesn't have enough help in front of him, but he was the highest-drafted running back, and he was drafted at a spot where you expect to get a big- time player who makes an immediate impact. The Broncos have a long history of running backs who averaged more than 3.9 yards per carry their first season.

Even last year, when the Broncos were a dead team walking at season's end, and running backs were falling all over the field, seven different backs averaged more than 4 yards a carry. All except one were jettisoned. The leftover running back, Peyton Hillis, averaged 5.0 yards a carry last year and is averaging 4.5 in limited duty this year.

Hillis rushed for 129 yards in a road game last year. And, he did rush for 47 yards in one series at Kansas City this season.

But Josh McDaniels and his assistants act as if Hillis is The Invisible Man. "Why doesn't McDaniels like him?" is the most common question in Denver, and it's a reasonable question. McDaniels is not answering, except to say that he wants "my best players on the field."

Moreno, honestly, hasn't been that best player.

It has been documented that the Broncos have serious troubles on third-and-short and fourth-and-short, and near the goal. (They couldn't score a touchdown from the Raiders' 2-yard line with a chance to ice the game Sunday.)

But, every bit as important as their third-down problems are their first-down issues.

The Broncos' had 27 first- down situations (including: after kickoffs, at the beginning of the second half and after an interception) on Sunday.

Moreno was called upon to carry on first down left, right and up the middle 14 times. He got 23 yards on four first-quarter first-down runs, and 6 yards on 10 carries on first down the rest of the game.

As McDaniels has said, the blame can be spread around. The offensive line is not doing its job on the right, the left or in the middle. The screwy combination of old and new blocking schemes isn't succeeding. Because quarterback Kyle Orton doesn't stretch the field and isn't asked to defenses can pack the box with linebackers and safeties and cheat their cornerbacks up close.

And the play calling from McDaniels and his lieutenants notably Mike McCoy, in his first year as an offensive coordinator has been predictable, conservative and boring. If we know that Knowshon is running the ball on 50 percent of every first down, so do opponents. McDaniels promised to reveal offensive concepts never seen before. We've seen this type of attack over and over before.

Offensive line coach Rick Dennison and Bobby Turner, holdovers from the Mike Shanahan era, probably will be dismissed, but there was nothing wrong with their coaching of running backs and the offensive line in past years.

If McDaniels rigidly intends to stick with Moreno, the coach must call for the pass 50 times in Philadelphia to have a chance to win. The Eagles are 10th in the league against the rush. The Raiders are 28th.

Less Moreno, please.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14045600#ixzz0aQiJS6RS

broncofan7
12-22-2009, 08:07 AM
Ouch--and I had such high hopes for NO-Shaun too--I loved his productivity in the SEC--but a few guys on here noted his lack of speed--and that, along with some poor decision making is making Moreno look like not even the 2nd best RB on our team (Buckhalter then Hillis).... I was wrong about him.

ohiobronco2
12-22-2009, 08:16 AM
Should have drafted Wells.

The Joker
12-22-2009, 08:22 AM
For all the problems the O-Line has had, Moreno still has to be considered a disappointment this year.

He hasn't been bad by any means, despite what some people will say, just nowhere near as good as you'd expect a #12 overall pick to be.

He has looked jaded out there these last few games, I think he really needs another back splitting carries with him to be effective. When you leave him in there when he's not fresh it seems he loses his shiftiness, which is a massive part of his game.

Weird thing was that Jordan was actually running the ball pretty well against Oakland when we gave it to him.

He ran for gains of 6, 5, 13, 4 and -1 yards on his 5 respective carries.

So 3 solid runs, one very good run and one bad run.

Why not give him the ball more with Knowshon clearly struggling out there?

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:23 AM
I'm glad Woody wrote this. Not because it tears on Knowshon, which is slightly unfair this early in his career, but more because it puts the light on Peyton Hillis who McDaniels refuses to play, refuses to discuss in the most arrogant fashion. His stubborness was highlighted against Oakland and really the last few weeks in short yardage, as McDaniels has defaulted to calliing QB sneaks over and over on 3rd/4th and short. (PATHETIC)

More light is being shown in on McDaniels personality as a tiny Napoleanic figure who won't have ANYBODY telling him what to do. Connect the dots in the offseason with things like this and it makes a lot of sense why things have been as rigid as they have since Josh signed on to this outfit.

Josh is more willing to lose proving he's right, vs admitting he's wrong and winning.

Knowshon is a solid player but has obvious flaws which is why I didn't want him at #12. He was overvalued there. I like that he can run, catch and block but does he do any of those exceptionally well? Is he a difference maker? No. Not really. Maybe he grows into one and yes, with a better offensive line, it will help but i don't think he's too far off from where he will be with more seasoning. Too often he runs east and west, too often he goes down on first contact, too often he looks dinged up, too often his high gear is 4.59.

In the coming seasons, we'll need to pair him up with a backfield mate.

worm
12-22-2009, 08:23 AM
I really would have liked to have seen what the Broncos could have accomplished without tearing down the O this past year. Orton limiting the turnovers from Cutler and everybody else running last years O would have yielded a lot of success IMO.

There were things that needed to be worked on from the O last year...but the wholesale change of players, blocking schemes, and play calling was unwarranted.

I love watching the Dolphins adapt their schemes to their players talent (even now seeing them run less Wildcat due to Ronnie Brown being out) rather than what we seem to do. Trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 08:27 AM
Very good article...Mcd is costing the games due to his stupidity.
Atleast give a chance to Hillis to see if he can perform..
I understand Shanny having ego..What did Mcd achieve as a head coach to have so much ego.

Durango
12-22-2009, 08:30 AM
My sense in watching Knowshon is that he bears a striking resemblance to another Bronco favorite, Sammy Winder. Now, that's not a slam on Moreno. Winder was a productive, if less than sensational RB for Denver.But, it's also not the second coming of Terrell Davis either. Or even Bobby Humphrey (as a a RB, not the person), or Mike Anderson (6th round by the way), and maybe not even Olandis Gary. You have high hopes for a guy taken as high as Knowshon. In that context alone, he's a terrible disappointment. I have no doubt people will immediately scream "it's his rookie year", but sadly, it's the rookie years of the great backs that show glimpses of the greatness to come. It's lacking with Knowshon, and maybe not there at all. Then again, you could do worse than Sammy Winder.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 08:30 AM
On the five plays that Knowshon lost yards, the Oline got stuffed. No, let me put that another way, they got driven backwards. Woody is an ass. This is one of those columns where you stir up **** to sell papers. In other words, a Kizla column. When this Oline gets fixed next year, everybody will suddenly discover that Moreno is a great runner. Eureka! And there will be a hundred threads on the Mane of people saying, "See? I always knew he was going to be great." blah, blah, blah

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:33 AM
My sense in watching Knowshon is that he bears a striking resemblance to another Bronco favorite, Sammy Winder. Now, that's not a slam on Moreno. Winder was a productive, if less than sensational RB for Denver.But, it's also not the second coming of Terrell Davis either. Or even Bobby Humphrey (as a a RB, not the person), or Mike Anderson (6th round by the way), and maybe not even Olandis Gary. You have high hopes for a guy taken as high as Knowshon. In that context alone, he's a terrible disappointment. I have no doubt people will immediately scream "it's his rookie year", but sadly, it's the rookie years of the great backs that show glimpses of the greatness to come. It's lacking with Knowshon, and maybe not there at all. Then again, you could do worse than Sammy Winder.

Great comparison. Very good 3rd down player which is what I think the NE point of thinking was when drafting him. They don't underrate the ability to catch the football and block for pass plays on 3rd down.

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 08:34 AM
On the five plays that Knowshon lost yards, the Oline got stuffed. No, let me put that another way, they got driven backwards. Woody is an ass. This is one of those columns where you stir up **** to sell papers. In other words, a Kizla column. When this Oline gets fixed next year, everybody will suddenly discover that Moreno is a great runner. Eureka! And there will be a hundred threads on the Mane of people saying, "See? I always knew he was going to be great." blah, blah, blah

I still don't understand why Mcd is not giving a chance to Hillis..
He is much better option than QB sneak.
We have no chance against Philly if we can't convert short yardages.

I hope our coach understands this and gives a chance to Hillis.

SouthStndJunkie
12-22-2009, 08:35 AM
Knowshon needs to take some HGH like most everyone else in the NFL is doing.

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:35 AM
On the five plays that Knowshon lost yards, the Oline got stuffed. No, let me put that another way, they got driven backwards. Woody is an ass. This is one of those columns where you stir up **** to sell papers. In other words, a Kizla column. When this Oline gets fixed next year, everybody will suddenly discover that Moreno is a great runner. Eureka! And there will be a hundred threads on the Mane of people saying, "See? I always knew he was going to be great." blah, blah, blah

Hmmm, this didn't agree with your anti-Shanahan agenda, so of course you rip on it.

Sadly, you miss the point. There are a lot of Moreno runs that are self-inflicted. He runs side to side more than any HB we've seen in the past 10 years. Unfortunately this isn't the SEC and 4.6 speed doesn't buy you much time in that situation.

Buy a clue? Catch one? Wake up?

ant1999e
12-22-2009, 08:40 AM
Any other article Woody writes is garbage but this one will be crowned as the truth.
Some of you people are too much.:pity:

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 08:42 AM
How is it possible Woody is still giving his opinion on which players start? He got owned the week he posted his entire diatribe on how Chris Simms should be starting and Orton shouldn't be anywhere near the field. This dude is a joke.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 08:46 AM
Hmmm, this didn't agree with your anti-Shanahan agenda, so of course you rip on it.

Sadly, you miss the point. There are a lot of Moreno runs that are self-inflicted. He runs side to side more than any HB we've seen in the past 10 years. Unfortunately this isn't the SEC and 4.6 speed doesn't buy you much time in that situation.

Buy a clue? Catch one? Wake up?

Hey, I'm not going to argue with you. Your anti-Broncos force is too strong for me. I was never opposed to Shanahan until the debacle of last season. Then, I didn't hate him. I just knew it was time for a change. Too bad some of the Nintendo fans on this board can't understand it takes a couple of years for a new coach to put a team together, or a rookie RB to show his stuff. Must be tough for a RB to come into the pros and try to run behind an Oline that can't win its battles up front. And yet still, he leads rookie RBs. Whatta ya know? McD has done the best he can with what he had. Hell, he might just take us to the playoffs his first year! When's the last time Shanahan managed that? I'm sure we'll be better next year. I also think Knowshon will be a whole lot better next year.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 08:49 AM
I still don't understand why Mcd is not giving a chance to Hillis..
He is much better option than QB sneak.
We have no chance against Philly if we can't convert short yardages.

I hope our coach understands this and gives a chance to Hillis.

My guess is that the coaches, including Bobby Turner, see something in practice that we're not seeing. Since I consider BT the best RBs coach in the NFL, I'll go with his decision on who's ready to play.

Smiling Assassin27
12-22-2009, 08:50 AM
And we should've started Chris Simms.


Shut up, Woodrow.

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:52 AM
Gotta love hypocrisy, like when people use a argument in their favor one moment and flip it around when it benefits them to argue a different side.

This year Orton is struggling and the offense is struggling because the offense can't get the running game going.

Last year you all contended Cutler was a failure, but he was without a running game to support him as he tried to carry the whole team (offense/defense/ST's) on his back and had to deal with 6 or 7 different starters. Yet that didn't stop any of you guys from bashing him, DESPITE making the pro bowl!

Now that same lack of running game is your saving grace for McD, Orton and their failure of an offense.

Hilarious. Hypocritical. Yet, so typical.

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:54 AM
My guess is that the coaches, including Bobby Turner, see something in practice that we're not seeing. Since I consider BT the best RBs coach in the NFL, I'll go with his decision on who's ready to play.

This is blind stupidity and the bane of McD so far. How will we know until he's given a shot? He looked good last week against KC. Looked good last time when he was given a shot to run.

McD won't give him a shot now because people are telling him he should and we all know when you challenge power-mad Napolean, he stomps around and does things his own way anyhow.

Inkana7
12-22-2009, 08:54 AM
Should have drafted Wells.

I thought fumbling was a negative thing?

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 08:56 AM
Gotta love hypocrisy, like when people use a argument in their favor one moment and flip it around when it benefits them to argue a different side.

This year Orton is struggling and the offense is struggling because the offense can't get the running game going.

Last year Cutler was a failure, without a running game to support him and had to feature what, 6 or 7 different starters, yet that didn't stop any of you guys from bashing him.

Now that same lack of running game is your saving grace for McD and Orton.

Hilarious. Hypocritical. Yet, so typical.

Cutler seems to have lived up to the bashing. Clue: He sucks. ;D

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 08:59 AM
This is blind stupidity and the bane of McD so far. How will we know until he's given a shot? He looked terrible last week against KC. Looked terrible last time when he was given a shot to run.

McD won't give him a shot now because people are telling him he should and we all know when you challenge power-mad Napolean, he stomps around and does things his own way anyhow.

I hate to break it to you, but the Broncos coaches don't care what you think. You assume it is McD's decision not to run Hillis. Is it? I haven't heard anything to support that. I realize that those who are filled with hatred for Josh and desperately want Shanahan back are willing to "fill in the blanks." But I don't see it. McD says he's going to play the best players he has. My "guess" is (and it's just a guess) is that he sits down with Bobby Turner and Dennison and asks their opinions when he's filling out his card.

Inkana7
12-22-2009, 09:00 AM
How very courageous of bpc to only post after a loss.

bpc
12-22-2009, 09:04 AM
Hilarious.

Dagmar
12-22-2009, 09:06 AM
How is it possible Woody is still giving his opinion on which players start? He got owned the week he posted his entire diatribe on how Chris Simms should be starting and Orton shouldn't be anywhere near the field. This dude is a joke.

It's great, these same posters that ripped him are now slobbering all over his "excellent argument"!

Beanie Wells is 26th in the league.
Knowshon is 13th.

Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng 1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
1 Chris Johnson TEN RB 301 21.5 1,730 5.7 123.6 11 91T 63 20.9 20 7 2
2 Steven Jackson STL RB 304 21.7 1,353 4.5 96.6 4 58 59 19.4 10 2 2
3 Maurice Jones-Drew JAC RB 278 19.9 1,246 4.5 89.0 15 80T 62 22.3 7 3 1
4 Adrian Peterson MIN RB 281 20.1 1,235 4.4 88.2 15 64T 64 22.8 11 3 6
5 Thomas Jones NYJ RB 281 20.1 1,219 4.3 87.1 11 71T 53 18.9 7 2 2
6 Ray Rice BAL RB 210 15.0 1,128 5.4 80.6 7 59T 45 21.4 10 3 1
7 Cedric Benson CIN RB 272 22.7 1,118 4.1 93.2 6 42 50 18.4 8 1 1
8 DeAngelo Williams CAR RB 216 16.6 1,117 5.2 85.9 7 77 51 23.6 7 3 3
9 Ryan Grant GB RB 255 18.2 1,105 4.3 78.9 8 62T 54 21.2 7 1 0
10 Ricky Williams MIA RB 219 15.6 1,055 4.8 75.4 11 68T 51 23.3 4 2 4
11 Rashard Mendenhall PIT RB 205 14.6 978 4.8 69.9 6 60 43 21.0 8 1 2
12 Frank Gore SF RB 178 14.8 942 5.3 78.5 7 80T 39 21.9 10 4 3
13 Knowshon Moreno DEN RB 224 16.0 879 3.9 62.8 5 36 47 21.0 2 0 2
14 Michael Turner ATL RB 178 16.2 871 4.9 79.2 10 58T 43 24.2 9 2 4
15 Brandon Jacobs NYG RB 218 15.6 834 3.8 59.6 5 31 43 19.7 2 0 2
16 Fred Jackson BUF RB 191 13.6 811 4.2 57.9 2 43 31 16.2 2 1 1
17 Jonathan Stewart CAR RB 177 12.6 802 4.5 57.3 8 45T 42 23.7 6 1 3
18 Joseph Addai IND RB 213 15.2 788 3.7 56.3 9 21 43 20.2 1 0 1
19 Marion Barber DAL RB 183 14.1 778 4.3 59.8 6 35 52 28.4 4 0 1
20 Jamaal Charles KC RB 141 10.8 759 5.4 58.4 5 76T 37 26.2 5 3 2
21 Matt Forte CHI RB 221 15.8 754 3.4 53.9 4 61 34 15.4 2 1 5
22 Kevin Smith DET RB 217 16.7 747 3.4 57.5 4 31 36 16.6 2 0 3
23 Laurence Maroney NE RB 189 13.5 735 3.9 52.5 9 45T 42 22.2 2 1 2
24 Pierre Thomas NO RB 141 10.8 733 5.2 56.4 5 34T 32 22.7 6 0 1
25 Ahmad Bradshaw NYG RB 145 11.2 712 4.9 54.8 7 38 41 28.3 6 0 3
26 Beanie Wells ARI RB 153 10.9 706 4.6 50.4 6 34 34 22.2 4 0 4
27 LaDainian Tomlinson SD RB 205 17.1 670 3.3 55.8 10 36 34 16.6 3 0 1
28 Cadillac Williams TB RB 167 11.9 652 3.9 46.6 3 35 34 20.4 6 0 0
29 Ronnie Brown MIA RB 147 16.3 648 4.4 72.0 8 45 32 21.8 3 1 1
30 Mike Bell NO RB 148 13.5 606 4.1 55.1 5 35 31 20.9 4 0 2

Dagmar
12-22-2009, 09:11 AM
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ns4ytv.png

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 09:20 AM
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ns4ytv.png

Yeah, I mean how much complaining can someone do when we have the top rookie rusher in the league?

jhns
12-22-2009, 09:31 AM
I think it is a combination of our line not adjusting to the new rushing scheme and Moreno being banged up. He took injuried early and has had noticable limps in some recent games.

I think he will be pretty good in this league. He follows blockers well, hits the hole hard, can break tackles, and is an extremely patient runner as a rookie. The only thing lacking in his game is the top end speed. I don't see that holding him back. I am excited to see what he does next year.

Now, with all that said, I would like to see others get more carries over the next two games if Moreno struggles. I don't get why he is left in no matter what, even when a different back is getting more out of their carries.

outdoor_miner
12-22-2009, 09:34 AM
More light is being shown in on McDaniels personality as a tiny Napoleanic figure who won't have ANYBODY telling him what to do. Connect the dots in the offseason with things like this and it makes a lot of sense why things have been as rigid as they have since Josh signed on to this outfit.

Josh is more willing to lose proving he's right, vs admitting he's wrong and winning.

This is so rich coming from such a big fan of Shanahan, "The Mastermind". I like Shanahan, but he had as big an ego as anybody in football.

Face it - you have no clue why McDaniels is sitting Hillis. I guarantee you he has a reason. I would like to see Hillis get some chances, but I also understand that we have about 1/100th of the information that the coach has. You don't think Mike Shanahan would get pissed off if the media was constantly asking about a player he didn't think deserved playing time?

chex
12-22-2009, 09:36 AM
Yeah, I mean how much complaining can someone do when we have the top rookie rusher in the league?

Depends on who drafts them.

bpc
12-22-2009, 09:37 AM
I don't think Beanie has started a game this year yet has a higher YPC, 70 less carries, slightly behind in yds, and has more TD's. Plus, he's shown that he is completely capable of breaking tackles upon contact and has the speed to get up the field for long runs.

I like Beanie Wells, think he definitely has flaws as well, but he's look more impressive as a ballcarrier vs. Knowshon.

Knowshon sort of turned the corner against the Giants with a solid game and played great against a terrible KC team, and then he stunk vs. Indy and in our loss to Oakland.

That's not being biased, it's just the facts.

DBroncos4life
12-22-2009, 09:40 AM
Yeah, I mean how much complaining can someone do when we have the top rookie rusher in the league?

It isn't to hard to understand that Moreno has had 224 carries for 3.9 ypc average and Wells has had 153 carries for 4.6 ypc average. Wells would be out rushing him if he had a extra 70 carries like Moreno does. Neither one is a bust and they both have things to work on, but to claim Moreno is better then Wells because he has more yards is not true because he has way more touches.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 09:44 AM
My sense in watching Knowshon is that he bears a striking resemblance to another Bronco favorite, Sammy Winder. Now, that's not a slam on Moreno. Winder was a productive, if less than sensational RB for Denver.But, it's also not the second coming of Terrell Davis either. Or even Bobby Humphrey (as a a RB, not the person), or Mike Anderson (6th round by the way), and maybe not even Olandis Gary. You have high hopes for a guy taken as high as Knowshon. In that context alone, he's a terrible disappointment. I have no doubt people will immediately scream "it's his rookie year", but sadly, it's the rookie years of the great backs that show glimpses of the greatness to come. It's lacking with Knowshon, and maybe not there at all. Then again, you could do worse than Sammy Winder.

You so wrong it's sad. Moreno has 10 times the talent of Winder.

It's the scheme, not the running back that is losing.

This is a coaching problem, not a talent problem.

go_broncos
12-22-2009, 09:44 AM
Slowshon is a rookie..Typically, they wear out in December..Mcd has to understand and atleast give chance to Hillis..If not Hillis, atleast give more carries to Jordon.

I am really frustrated with the way we choke in the end..It's really depressing.
We need to wait till Aug(8 more months) for the season to start..

Mcd..do something..We need to be in Playoff's this year.Can't lose this opportunity after starting 6-0.

barryr
12-22-2009, 09:46 AM
People are really stupid. Moreno is just fine. He makes poor reads at times with blockers, but geez, he's a ROOKIE! Wow, a rookie making mistakes, first time that has ever happened. He has enough speed and should be used even more in the passing game since he has great hands. Comparing him to Sammy Winder is about as stupid a thing I have seen.

The real problem is the o-line. It's is not run blocking consistently enough and the pass blocking isn't as strong either, especially with the failure to pick up blitzes. I have never been a fan of Rick Dennison and would like to finally see him gone. I have asked for his dismissal for years.

Dagmar
12-22-2009, 09:46 AM
Knowshon sort of turned the corner against the Giants with a solid game and played great against a terrible KC team, and then he stunk vs. Indy and in our loss to Oakland.




An inconsistent rookie running back? Who would have thunk it!

Taco John
12-22-2009, 09:49 AM
When everything is perfect, and the lane is cleared, Moreno runs like a beast. When it's not, Moreno is indecisive and the field seems to shrink on him. The reason this concerns me is that runningbacks don't suddenly develop field vision in the NFL. They either come in with it, or they don't. Shaun Alexander is a good example of a runningback who I don't believe had great field vision, but managed to carve out a great career behind a stellar run blocking line - except on the days they were not stellar.

And this idea that we're going to be able to magically produce an entire new offensive line in one season - I'm a little skeptical of.

Frankly, I think Woody is off the mark here. This article might have been worth writing in November during our four game skid - back when I was making the observations Woody is finally making now. Instead, Woody should be focusing on why we're abandoning the ZBS when we know it works, we've got all the personnel and infrastructure not only to run it, but to accel with it, and still have a lot of needs on defense before we can expect it to last for a playoff run. We're not going to have Nolan forever. We need to get him players now. And I only hope we can hold onto Dennison and Turner forever. But without a ZBS, I think their days are numbered.

It's a mistake to abandon the ZBS. One that could cost us playoffs this year, and maybe next.

bpc
12-22-2009, 09:54 AM
An inconsistent rookie running back? Who would have thunk it!

Inconsistent isn't his problem, it's his makeup. He's just an average player with average tools that we overdrafted.

We reached hardcore with the 12th pick for a HB in a down year for HB's. We could have drafted a guy like Shonn Greene in round 2 or 3 and got the exact same value back but at less cost and more effectiveness. At least he has a 100 yd game this season.

chex
12-22-2009, 09:56 AM
So it's settled, Moreno sucks and drafting him has set the franchise back an additional 10 years on top of the 10 years we lost trading Cutler.

cabronco
12-22-2009, 11:05 AM
Moreno will be fine. Whatever the reason Hillis crossed , stepped on, embarrassed, lack of fire in practice ( which I find hard to believe), whatever reason McD has on Hillis , ticks me off that its there. Why cant a coach swallow his pride for a few plays a game and run the best option we have at picking up first downs in short yardage, because we suck at it. Moreno struggles, Orton sneaks arent the answer, Clady passes are absurd. I believe we would of won an extra game or two with involving hillis, unless he is hurt too bad, and I dont see it. Jordan is washed up older guy w/ bad back and also ineffective.

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 11:11 AM
Is db.com suddenly down or something? Somehow the mass stupidity over there is finding it's way here.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:18 AM
Hmmm, this didn't agree with your anti-Shanahan agenda, so of course you rip on it.
?

Dude, it's just hysterical to hear YOU accuse ANYONE ELSE of having "an agenda."

Especially a solid poster like Rohirrim with a history of seeing the bigger picture around here.

NaptownChief
12-22-2009, 11:21 AM
I think Donald Brown that the Colts snatched will turn out to be the best back in the draft. Unfortunatley he has been knicked up the last few weeks but you could tell when he was getting a few carries in the begining of the year that he is a real playmaker.

I wasn't that impressed with Moreno at UGA and then when he rolled up that 4.6 40 at the combine I didn't think he was more than a late 2nd rounder at best. But who knows, plenty of football yet to be played before the book gets closed.

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 11:22 AM
Inconsistent isn't his problem, it's his makeup. He's just an average player with average tools that we overdrafted.

We reached hardcore with the 12th pick for a HB in a down year for HB's. We could have drafted a guy like Shonn Greene in round 2 or 3 and got the exact same value back but at less cost and more effectiveness. At least he has a 100 yd game this season.

We also could have drafted Tom Brady in the 6th round instead of Deltha Oneal in the 1st. MUCH more value there.

See how I did that?

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:23 AM
Moreno will be fine. Whatever the reason Hillis crossed , stepped on, embarrassed, lack of fire in practice ( which I find hard to believe), whatever reason McD has on Hillis , ticks me off that its there. Why cant a coach swallow his pride for a few plays a game and run the best option we have at picking up first downs in short yardage.

Not to revamp this offense, but I highly doubt "pride" has anything to do with why Hillis isn't seeing more touches, and we don't have any tangible proof that he'd be better in these situations.

We've got to block better. I'd love to see Hillis out there as much as anyone, but we've got to open up holes for our RBs.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:27 AM
We also could have drafted Tom Brady in the 6th round instead of Deltha Oneal in the 1st. MUCH more value there.

See how I did that?

Not the same. CB's and QB's have the career expectancy 2 or 3 times what HB's have in this league, making their 1st round status much more solid IMO.

Also, every team in the draft missed picking Tom Brady, 5 rounds in a row. 6 other QB's went before Tom Terrific.

Finally, Deltha, while hit or miss as a CB, made the pro bowl twice and intercepted Brady 3 or 4 times in one game.

Shonn Greene won't be going H2H in the coming years with Knowshon but when Greene takes over for Thomas Jones and has a Larry Johnson like explosion on their offense, we're going to circle the two and they'll probably be synonimous with each other.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:29 AM
Not to revamp this offense, but I highly doubt "pride" has anything to do with why Hillis isn't seeing more touches, and we don't have any tangible proof that he'd be better in these situations.

We've got to block better. I'd love to see Hillis out there as much as anyone, but we've got to open up holes for our RBs.

McD's arrogance has been spilling over since he got here. It's slathered all over the Cutler trade, and the current way he's calling plays and playing players.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:31 AM
McD's arrogance has been spilling over since he got here. It's slathered all over the Cutler trade, and the current way he's calling plays and playing players.

Arrogance?

The Cutler trade was fantastic. What was arrogant about that? We got a winning QB, dumped a major head-case/****-bag QB and got a boatload of stuff in return.

Arrogance? Give me that arrogance 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.


As for play-calling, he's probably a bit conservative, if anything.

Arrogant? That's just a scorned widow talking.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:38 AM
Arrogance?

The Cutler trade was fantastic. What was arrogant about that? We got a winning QB, dumped a major head-case/****-bag QB and got a boatload of stuff in return.

Arrogance? Give me that arrogance 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.


As for play-calling, he's probably a bit conservative, if anything.

Arrogant? That's just a scorned widow talking.

Wow, you call a offensive tackle screen pass when we need just one touchdown in the redzone, conservative? I'd hate to see what think you think the run and shoot is!

That play was one of a handful that cost us the game because of McD's arrogance. 3 ways to fail on that play/drive.

1. Failure to get a TD. (Achieved)
2. Injury to our young franchise LT (close... Asomugha put his best shoulder through his knee...)
3. Turnover the ball. (Could have happened considering we're throwing to a guy that has what, zero career catches?)

You've gone off the deepend. Your reality is so jaded, you can't even speak of ways to improve this current staff because you have to protect ya boyz!

While I think the trading of Cutler was wrong, what can we do to improve this team, NOW?

If it was up to you, going back over the weeks... you've found a way to blame everybody but Orton, Knowshon and McD. You've blamed Marshall, Royal, Hillis for not playing for whatever reason (darn, another Shanny guy bites the dust!), and now you've turned your back on the OL more recently.

In just one season you've burned all your Shanahan scapegoats. If we fail again next year, you might have to start throwing some of McD's boys under the bus...

OH NOS!!!!

yavoon
12-22-2009, 11:38 AM
slowshon nogaino

who's w/ me?

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Wow, you call a offensive tackle screen pass when we need just one touchdown in the redzone, conservative? !

It was one gadget play. People are getting their panties all wet over it. It was one play. The rest of the game was called conservatively. Probably too conservatively, in most people's opinion.


You've gone off the deepend. Your reality is so jaded, you can't even speak of ways to improve. !\

Again, for a psyco-hater-troll like yourself, calling anyone else "jaded" is just fodder for comedy, Chris. No one is as silly as you are about this stuff. You hate this team, it's obvious and you can't wait for us to fail.


If we fail again next year, you might have to start throwing some of McD's boys under the bus...
!

Like I said, you're just a hater, praying this team fails.

By the way, we haven't "failed" this season. We're already a better team than last year if you discount Ed H's help. I suspect we'll have a better record and in the first year of transition, that's anything BUT failure.

But, I know you need us to fail, Chris. Keep your fingers crossed.

Hey, maybe Dawkins or Bailey will get injured. Get your voodoo dolls out.

Requiem
12-22-2009, 11:45 AM
BPC can keep bitching while Knowshon Moreno is dancing with the stars, stepping on blow and doin' toe taps. I haven't been around here a lot, but I can tell had I been I'd of probably ignored BPC a long time ago. I cannot believe an individual can be so snake-bitten by a series of personnel decisions to the point where their mind is so clouded that they accuse others of the same bias and narrow-mindedness they consistently show with post after post.

Moreno has plenty of faults and can be criticized for several things this year, such as lack of vision hitting the whole and occasional flaws in pass blocking. He's dropped some catchable balls too. He's a rookie and I expect that. What I didn't expect, and what most reasonable football fans can conclude based on observation -- is that our line isn't as effective as last year. Our interior players are being beaten off the ball on a consistent basis and we lack a push up the middle to get our ground game going. We can't even run to the right end with Polumbus in the game because he is just terrible, even Clady, arguably our best player on offense -- is struggling with the switch.

Moreno should break 1,000 on the ground this year, which I would consider to be a success when you couple in his touchdowns and receptions. I will expect more out of him as he continues to grow and adapt to the NFL. I'll take the coaches side with this and say it isn't about the player we have (Moreno) and his talent, it is about who we have ahead of him.

That is why significant upgrades and player personnel moves are going to happen in the way of the line this off-season. It is guaranteed. Anyone still talking about the Cutler trade needs to find something else better to do. It is done and over. Water under the bridge. Talking about it more doesn't change the fact he is gone, it just makes you look extremely bitter.

Time to move on folks. Really.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:49 AM
It was one gadget play. People are getting their panties all wet over it. It was one play. The rest of the game was called conservatively. Probably too conservatively, in most people's opinion.

\

Again, for a psyco-hater-troll like yourself, calling anyone else "jaded" is just fodder for comedy, Chris. No one is as silly as you are about this stuff. You hate this team, it's obvious and you can't wait for us to fail.



Like I said, you're just a hater, praying this team fails.

By the way, we haven't "failed" this season. We're already a better team than last year if you discount Ed H's help. I suspect we'll have a better record and in the first year of transition, that's anything BUT failure.

But, I know you need us to fail, Chris. Keep your fingers crossed.

Hey, maybe Dawkins or Bailey will get injured. Get your voodoo dolls out.

BTW, clarified, that's a text of failure ON offense. I think that defense has done it's part to put us in the playoffs. The only reason we aren't guaranteed a spot is because of our guru's work on the other side of the ball.

There is no hate of my team, there's hate of stupidity and ignorance which is what we've been seeing on the offensive side of the ball. There is no real reason why Hillis hasn't gotten a chance on 3rd/4th and short. We've reduced our offense to QB sneaking it, just so McD doesn't have to play him and prove he potentially was wrong on the issue all along.

It's much more satisfying for McD to say "i told you so" vs. "Hey, i'm a pig headed, sadistic bastard and i'm going to prove to you how smart a 32 year old i am, at all costs... even if we miss the playoffs."

Arrogance. That's the reason we might miss the playoffs and the longterm reason McD might not be a success in Denver. He needs to have a slice of humble pie. As do you.

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:53 AM
BPC can keep b****ing while Knowshon Moreno is dancing with the stars, stepping on blow and doin' toe taps. I haven't been around here a lot, but I can tell had I been I'd of probably ignored BPC a long time ago. I cannot believe an individual can be so snake-bitten by a series of personnel decisions to the point where their mind is so clouded that they accuse others of the same bias and narrow-mindedness they consistently show with post after post.

Moreno has plenty of faults and can be criticized for several things this year, such as lack of vision hitting the whole and occasional flaws in pass blocking. He's dropped some catchable balls too. He's a rookie and I expect that. What I didn't expect, and what most reasonable football fans can conclude based on observation -- is that our line isn't as effective as last year. Our interior players are being beaten off the ball on a consistent basis and we lack a push up the middle to get our ground game going. We can't even run to the right end with Polumbus in the game because he is just terrible, even Clady, arguably our best player on offense -- is struggling with the switch.

Moreno should break 1,000 on the ground this year, which I would consider to be a success when you couple in his touchdowns and receptions. I will expect more out of him as he continues to grow and adapt to the NFL. I'll take the coaches side with this and say it isn't about the player we have (Moreno) and his talent, it is about who we have ahead of him.

That is why significant upgrades and player personnel moves are going to happen in the way of the line this off-season. It is guaranteed. Anyone still talking about the Cutler trade needs to find something else better to do. It is done and over. Water under the bridge. Talking about it more doesn't change the fact he is gone, it just makes you look extremely bitter.

Time to move on folks. Really.

Weren't you nuthugging me on IM a few years back, asking me for scouting breakdowns on players and such when I worked in the AFL???

Ha ha.

Ok boywonder, good luck with your new MO.

There is no bias at all with these projections. You either argue facts or real questions, "WHY ISN'T HILLIS GETTING SHORT YARDAGE CARRIES WHEN OUR TEAM SUCKS AT IT?" or you cover it up and apologize to the great McD about doubting his work and we're quite sure that Orton will pick up those next few QB sneaks when everybody knows its coming.

chex
12-22-2009, 11:54 AM
Arrogance. That's the reason we might miss the playoffs and the longterm reason McD might not be a success in Denver. He needs to have a slice of humble pie. As do you.

What was Shanahan's reason for missing the playoffs his last three years, and having modest success the past decade?

bpc
12-22-2009, 11:59 AM
What was Shanahan's reason for missing the playoffs his last three years, and having modest success the past decade?

Winning DESPITE Jake Plummer, with a talented running game and a defense that peaked during the 2005 season.

He learned you actually need talent at the QB position if you're going to beat the best QB's out there like Peyton, Big Ben and Brady.

He had us on the right track on offense. The defense needed more work but I feel like the offense would have produced on that same level with those other guys within a year... maybe two.

I think Shanahan's model was one very similar to Peyton Manning. You put a rock in place at QB, give them a few weapons and build up the defense. The QB eventually is good enough to break in lower draft players and keep them producing in the system.

We had the offense. We needed health at HB and it would have been much better.

The part where I disagree with Shanahan was on the 3-4 and keeping Slowik around.

Water under the bridge now though... we were smart enough to hire Nolan who has saved our season and McD has caused our offense to sink like a rock in water. We can't do anything right, not even passes out of the backfield. Our best playmakers are phased out of the game by poor playcalling. Marshall has the opportunity to do what he did against the Colts most weeks... we would just rather screen opposing teams to death passing to our HB's.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 12:03 PM
BTW, anybody remember that nice catch Moreno made down the sidelines for a first down? Sweet. :~ohyah!:

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 12:04 PM
Winning DESPITE Jake Plummer, with a talented running game and a defense that peaked during the 2005 season.

He learned you actually need talent at the QB position if you're going to beat the best QB's out there like Peyton, Big Ben and Brady.

He had us on the right track on offense. The defense needed more work but I feel like the offense would have produced on that same level with those other guys within a year... maybe two.

I think Shanahan's model was one very similar to Peyton Manning. You put a rock in place at QB, give them a few weapons and build up the defense. The QB eventually is good enough to break in lower draft players and keep them producing in the system.

We had the offense. We needed health at HB and it would have been much better.

The part where I disagree with Shanahan was on the 3-4 and keeping Slowik around.

Water under the bridge now though... we were smart enough to hire Nolan who has saved our season and McD has caused our offense to sink like a rock in water. We can't do anything right, not even passes out of the backfield. Our best playmakers are phased out of the game by poor playcalling. Marshall has the opportunity to do what he did against the Colts most weeks... we would just rather screen opposing teams to death passing to our HB's.

You mean McD was smart enough to hire Nolan. He was also smart enough to bring in Dawkins, Holliday, Goodman, and every other FA that helped the defense overachieve.

Requiem
12-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Weren't you nuthugging me on IM a few years back, asking me for scouting breakdowns on players and such when I worked in the AFL?

I guess this is where the bitter part would come in play. I'm not sure where I addressed any of this or brought up anything personally in what I stated above. Always appreciated your views on prospects, but I guess the way you are going about things in this thread and how I've seen some arguments go regarding some of this topics just seem to not be the norm for you.

I think it is amazing how someone can approach such discussions with a lack of candor because the decisions a coach made personnel wise (and all things wise) did not line up with their wants and views.


Ok boywonder, good luck with your new MO.
Graduate in the Spring and am excited. I succeed at whatever I do. I'll be fine. Thanks though!

There is no bias at all with these projections. You either argue facts or real questions, "WHY ISN'T HILLIS GETTING SHORT YARDAGE CARRIES WHEN OUR TEAM SUCKS AT IT?" or you cover it up and apologize to the great McD about doubting his work and we're quite sure that Orton will pick up those next few QB sneaks when everybody knows its coming.

Wondering why Hillis is not being used in short yardage when we have had woes in that area is a fair question to ask. I think the Coach has provided us with some anwers (whether you choose to believe them or not is your prerogative, reality is subjective) in this regard. If you feel that they are bull****, more power to you.

Despite Hillis' skillset and perhaps toughness as a runner, I'm not sure he overcomes our woes given our horrible run blocking. I guess we really can't answer it honestly since he wasn't given the chance. Absolutely fair to ask questions, and it is also fair for any answer to be given.

What you may see as stubborness on behalf of McDaniels and a blatant refusal to play Hillis as arrogance another may view it as simply: "Hillis isn't doing enough in practice and through the week to be given a chance on Sunday."

Perhaps it is a combination of the both. Who knows? All I know is that this team exceeded my expectations this year and I'm quite pleased. I have many of the same concerns you do. QB, running game, etc. -- I guess I just don't seem to make it an issue of contention or reliving the past at every God given opportunity.

Nice talking to you again though, I'm sorry you had to get so negative and get personal about it, but well -- we all know how that goes.

Requiem
12-22-2009, 12:24 PM
We can't do anything right, not even passes out of the backfield.

Questionable play-calling and personnel decisions have a lot to do with this, but it is also execution. Can't blame that on the Coach unless you want to dig deeper that he and the other coaches aren't putting in enough time preparing our players in the best manners conducive to them producing on Sunday.

broncosteven
12-22-2009, 12:33 PM
... McDaniels promised to reveal offensive concepts never seen before. We've seen this type of attack over and over before.
...
Less Moreno, please.

...[/url]

We did get to see offensive concepts never before seen, the boot/sprint-right-LT pass to Clady. maybe this works at the goal-line but I have never seen it done that far from the goalline.

Less passing to biggest/slowest guy on the field and more Hillis.

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 12:40 PM
We did get to see offensive concepts never before seen, the boot/sprint-right-LT pass to Clady. maybe this works at the goal-line but I have never seen it done that far from the goalline.

Less passing to biggest/slowest guy on the field and more Hillis.

How dare you? More Clady!

http://www.ssportsman.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cowbell.jpg

Dagmar
12-22-2009, 12:40 PM
No one has answered this. Why is Woody making personel calls? He called for Simms. He played. Horribly. Even Gruden mentioned on MNF last night the Redskins only beat us because Orton came out of the game.

Popps
12-22-2009, 12:42 PM
Weren't you nuthugging me on IM a few years back, asking me for scouting breakdowns on players and such when I worked in the AFL??? g.

That's probably back when you actually had football takes, and not scorned girlfriend rants all day.

Dagmar
12-22-2009, 12:47 PM
That's probably back when you actually had football takes, and not scorned girlfriend rants all day.

:rofl:

PRBronco
12-22-2009, 12:49 PM
Sweet article. If we still had Mike Bell he would be able to run through the backs of Wiegmann and Hochstein, which are right in his face. Woody's ****ing retarded.

Beantown Bronco
12-22-2009, 01:00 PM
Less passing to biggest/slowest guy on the field and more Hillis.

Did Orton pass to himself and I somehow missed it?

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 01:01 PM
Did Orton pass to himself and I somehow missed it?

Orton's not the biggest.

BroncoMan4ever
12-22-2009, 01:16 PM
Paige is a moron and those bashing Moreno are retards too.

how can the guy be expected to be awesome breaking long runs and breaking out 100 yard games in his situation?

the no gain, short gain, loss of yardage runs are problems that fall squarely on the shoulders of the line. no RB, can be expected tpo rush for great yardage if on almost every single carry he has to dodge a defender or 2 in the backfield just to get the ball back to the line of scrimmage.

his lack of stats are not the cause of him not being any good, or that he isn't running hard, because if you watch him when he has protection he looks great, and he runs hard every single play, looking to hit a defender before he goes down, keeps the legs churning for extra yardage until he is brought to the turf.

as this line gets better, Moreno's individual stats will go up, and all those who bash him now, will swing from his nuts.

Beantown Bronco
12-22-2009, 01:21 PM
Orton's not the biggest.

You obviously don't talk to the numerous skanks he's sworded.

rastaman
12-22-2009, 01:22 PM
Paige: Moreno not in running to get job done for Broncos
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post


Perhaps the Broncos' rookie running back should be called No-Gain Moreno, or his name possibly should be written as Knwshn Mren.

Here are statistics the Broncos won't tell you, and you may not believe:

Of Knowshon Moreno's 224 runs this season, 36.6 percent have been stopped for 1, 0 or negative yards. A startling 23.7 percent of his rushes have produced a cumulative minus-39 yards.

Knowshon had no gain on five of his carries Sunday against the Raiders. He lost yardage on four attempts. He picked up 1 yard twice. His other eight runs resulted in 3, 8, 7, 5, 7, 8, 6 and 4 yards. Nineteen rushes for 42 yards, a 2.2-yard average.

No wonder the Broncos' offense is struggling, straggling, sprawling, straining, stressing. The running game is running aground with Moreno.

When will somebody admit it?

If Moreno, who has 879 yards with two games remaining, reaches 1,000 yards, he will have no honor among NFL runners.

Real rushers don't fail to surpass 100 yards once in a season. Real running backs have at least two runs in the 30-plus category in a season. Real members of the Broncos' 1,000-yard club don't have five games in which they net fewer than 50 yards, or 11 games in which they have negative plays, or five games in which their longest run is not in double digits.

Welcome to the NFL; this isn't the SEC.

And Knowshon held out for more or Moreno money.

Sure, he's a rookie, and he's getting his footing, and he doesn't have enough help in front of him, but he was the highest-drafted running back, and he was drafted at a spot where you expect to get a big- time player who makes an immediate impact. The Broncos have a long history of running backs who averaged more than 3.9 yards per carry their first season.

Even last year, when the Broncos were a dead team walking at season's end, and running backs were falling all over the field, seven different backs averaged more than 4 yards a carry. All except one were jettisoned. The leftover running back, Peyton Hillis, averaged 5.0 yards a carry last year and is averaging 4.5 in limited duty this year.

Hillis rushed for 129 yards in a road game last year. And, he did rush for 47 yards in one series at Kansas City this season.

But Josh McDaniels and his assistants act as if Hillis is The Invisible Man. "Why doesn't McDaniels like him?" is the most common question in Denver, and it's a reasonable question. McDaniels is not answering, except to say that he wants "my best players on the field."

Moreno, honestly, hasn't been that best player.

It has been documented that the Broncos have serious troubles on third-and-short and fourth-and-short, and near the goal. (They couldn't score a touchdown from the Raiders' 2-yard line with a chance to ice the game Sunday.)

But, every bit as important as their third-down problems are their first-down issues.

The Broncos' had 27 first- down situations (including: after kickoffs, at the beginning of the second half and after an interception) on Sunday.

Moreno was called upon to carry on first down left, right and up the middle 14 times. He got 23 yards on four first-quarter first-down runs, and 6 yards on 10 carries on first down the rest of the game.

As McDaniels has said, the blame can be spread around. The offensive line is not doing its job on the right, the left or in the middle. The screwy combination of old and new blocking schemes isn't succeeding. Because quarterback Kyle Orton doesn't stretch the field and isn't asked to defenses can pack the box with linebackers and safeties and cheat their cornerbacks up close.

And the play calling from McDaniels and his lieutenants notably Mike McCoy, in his first year as an offensive coordinator has been predictable, conservative and boring. If we know that Knowshon is running the ball on 50 percent of every first down, so do opponents. McDaniels promised to reveal offensive concepts never seen before. We've seen this type of attack over and over before.

Offensive line coach Rick Dennison and Bobby Turner, holdovers from the Mike Shanahan era, probably will be dismissed, but there was nothing wrong with their coaching of running backs and the offensive line in past years.

If McDaniels rigidly intends to stick with Moreno, the coach must call for the pass 50 times in Philadelphia to have a chance to win. The Eagles are 10th in the league against the rush. The Raiders are 28th.

Less Moreno, please.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14045600#ixzz0aQiJS6RS

Meh! McD "The Mad Scientist" will start "MORENO" on Special Teams next year as revenge for embarrashing McD with his sub-bad rookie performance in 2009! :wiggle:

rastaman
12-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Did Orton pass to himself and I somehow missed it?

Orton has mentally talked himself out of success so many occassions during the 2009 season....."where-to-begin"!

Bronx33
12-22-2009, 01:29 PM
To be fair Moreno is basically out there by himself after he gets the ball from orton he could try moving more lateral vs running into the nearest blocker giving time for the D too tackle him, he really needs to start making his own space cause the OL isn't doing him any favors and hes peeing in a fan if he thinks the OL is going to change overnight.

rastaman
12-22-2009, 01:33 PM
This is so rich coming from such a big fan of Shanahan, "The Mastermind". I like Shanahan, but he had as big an ego as anybody in football.

Face it - you have no clue why McDaniels is sitting Hillis. I guarantee you he has a reason. I would like to see Hillis get some chances, but I also understand that we have about 1/100th of the information that the coach has. You don't think Mike Shanahan would get pissed off if the media was constantly asking about a player he didn't think deserved playing time?

The reality here is that from a players perspective Hillis does not trust McDaniels. And from McD's perspective he doesn't trust Hillis.

What this all boils down to is neither player or coach were not meant to play together! There appears to be a Battle of Wills going on btwn the Hillis and McD. As a result, its in the best interest for the team and Hillis that he seeks employment with another NFL team.

I think both McD and Hillis for the sake of team continuity are handling this situation very well. Hopefully, McD won't enforce his will and grant the under achieving lowly 7th round draft pick his release in 2010 in time for Hillis to try and hookup Shanahan in DC for a 6th round pick or for nothing at all.

WolfpackGuy
12-22-2009, 01:37 PM
I heard Hillis isn't returning Bowlen's calls...

yavoon
12-22-2009, 01:51 PM
for all the people convinced it's everyone else but moreno's fault. how does buckhalters success work in your blame others theory?

5.3 ypc for the buck

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 01:54 PM
for all the people convinced it's everyone else but moreno's fault. how does buckhalters success work in your blame others theory?

5.3 ypc for the buck

Off the top of my head I would guess that Buckhalter's years of game experiences give him an edge.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 01:56 PM
Off the top of my head I would guess that Buckhalter's years of game experiences give him an edge.

Plus, Buckhalter has better field vision and hits the hole quicker.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 01:58 PM
Paige is a moron and those bashing Moreno are retards too.

how can the guy be expected to be awesome breaking long runs and breaking out 100 yard games in his situation?



This is where McDaniels criticism should be the loudest. It used to be that Denver runningbacks would "break 2k in this system." Now people are complaining "how can anyone be expected to break 1k in this system?"

This is weak.

Bronx33
12-22-2009, 01:58 PM
I heard Hillis isn't returning Bowlen's calls...

I heard cutlers dad offered to mediate or return any items.

yavoon
12-22-2009, 02:00 PM
Off the top of my head I would guess that Buckhalter's years of game experiences give him an edge.

funny the meme I'm getting is it's all the offensive line's fault. so slowshon nogaino is bad, but he's only bad because he's a rookie?

brother love
12-22-2009, 02:03 PM
I guess that its Adrian Petersons fault that he hasn't rushed for over 100 yards in 5 games. He must be the problem according to Woody Paige, if he is going to blast Moreno.

Bronx33
12-22-2009, 02:06 PM
I guess that its Adrian Petersons fault that he hasn't rushed for over 100 yards in 5 games. He must be the problem according to Woody Paige, if he is going to blast Moreno.


It's woodys job to write articals nowhere in his contract does it say they have to make sense. :sunshine:

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Plus, Buckhalter has better field vision and hits the hole quicker.

Knowshon is learning. He's gotten better at it. He's running with a lot more authority than he did when he started. He was much more tentative, and did more lateral dancing, at the beginning of the season than he does now. Bobby's got him taking his medicine. ;D

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 02:08 PM
funny the meme I'm getting is it's all the offensive line's fault. so slowshon nogaino is bad, but he's only bad because he's a rookie?

He's not "bad," so I don't get the point.

yavoon
12-22-2009, 02:11 PM
He's not "bad," so I don't get the point.

perhaps we can reach a political compromise on the wording then, how about:

"significantly less effective than the only other person to get enough carries"

if you can agree to this I will be expecting your vote on health care reform.

Beantown Bronco
12-22-2009, 02:18 PM
perhaps we can reach a political compromise on the wording then, how about:

"significantly less effective than the only other person to get enough carries"

if you can agree to this I will be expecting your vote on health care reform.

yards per carry is hardly an accurate measure of effectiveness.

yavoon
12-22-2009, 02:21 PM
yards per carry is hardly an accurate measure of effectiveness.


it's hardly the ONLY measure of effectiveness. if you dissent from this view of buck pwning slowshon nogaino then please step to plate with argument, you can use numbers too!

brother love
12-22-2009, 02:24 PM
Statistically speaking Tatum Bell is a better running back than Moreno!

That article like everything else Woody Paige writes is dog****!

Taco John
12-22-2009, 02:27 PM
yards per carry is hardly an accurate measure of effectiveness.


How is it not "THE" measure of effectiveness? Particularly if you're talking about a three down back.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 02:30 PM
Statistically speaking Tatum Bell is a better running back than Moreno!

That article like everything else Woody Paige writes is dog****!


You're playing with a double edged sword with that argument.

Mr.Meanie
12-22-2009, 02:49 PM
it's hardly the ONLY measure of effectiveness. if you dissent from this view of buck pwning slowshon nogaino then please step to plate with argument, you can use numbers too!

oh i see what you did there

Beantown Bronco
12-22-2009, 02:52 PM
How is it not "THE" measure of effectiveness? Particularly if you're talking about a three down back.

Context. Moreno has probably had twice the amount of short yardage carries as Buck, at a minimum. Those obviously bring down the numbers. Also, Buck has had FAR fewer carries post Harris injury when (not coincidentally) the running game really started tanking IMO.

It's not a coincidence that CBuck has run for less than 3 yards a carry against Pitt, Baltimore and the Giants, while padding his numbers against Cleveland and KC.

yavoon
12-22-2009, 02:53 PM
oh i see what you did there

I know, pretty clever eh:)))

NYBronco
12-22-2009, 02:58 PM
"Welcome to the NFL; this isn't the SEC."

This statement may be some of the issues with Moreno as a rookie RB in the NFL.

oubronco
12-22-2009, 02:59 PM
Knowshon is learning. He's gotten better at it. He's running with a lot more authority than he did when he started. He was much more tentative, and did more lateral dancing, at the beginning of the season than he does now. Bobby's got him taking his medicine. ;D

funny thats pretty much all he does

oubronco
12-22-2009, 03:02 PM
How is it not "THE" measure of effectiveness? Particularly if you're talking about a three down back.

I agree with this

watermock
12-22-2009, 03:05 PM
Moreno is about as good as I thought. The change to man blocking, while familiar to him, isn't what denver's OL is used to.

Hes good at everthing but ot great at anything, he's a Sammy Winder with recieving skill, I guess altho we haven't seen it much.

Regardless...Jordan instead?

How does his numbskull keep getting passes for offensive game plans out of high school?

MaloCS
12-22-2009, 03:15 PM
What was Shanahan's reason for missing the playoffs his last three years, and having modest success the past decade?

Despite what NFL coaches and owners want the fans to believe there are bonafied rebuilding years in every NFL franchise. For Denver, the rebuilding process started when Cutler replaced Plummer whether the organization admitted it or not.

I think all rational NFL fans will allow 2 to 3 years for the rebuilding process to develop and results to be seen. Shanny and the Broncos were basically 2 years into the rebuilding process with much success on the offensive side of the ball and poised to be very prolific in the upcoming years. All that was left was to work on the defense and special teams and you're looking at Super Bowls runs in the 2010 and up seasons. Why Bowlen fired Shanny in year 2 of the rebuilding process is a mystery when a good portion of that process was completed.

It's been speculated that Bowlen canned Shanny because Shanny refused to make major changes on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe years of revolving door defensive coordinators and the ineffectiveness they exhibited made Shanny realize that the stop gaps were not working and that the current DC needed time to develop the defensive unit. Maybe this is why Shanny decided to not overhaul the defensive coaching staff and instead elected to retain the staff.

As far as No-Show is concerned I do not see him as a top flight NFL running back. His yards are empty yards, his presence doesn't command respect from the defense, he doesn't control the tempo of the game, and he fails to make people miss when he get's into the secondary.

It's been said in this thread that we should give him a break because he's a rookie but I beg to differ. When TD was a rookie he did everything No-Show hasn't. TD's yards controlled the tempo of the game, TD's presence on the field made defenses respect the run and TD made defenders miss when he got into the secondary. The point is that everything TD did was meaningful and had a positive outcome on the game whereas Moreno's productivity is not directly correlated with the success of the team. There's nothing special about Moreno.

Additionally, many members have brought up the ineffectiveness of the offensive line in their defense of Moreno. I agree with these sentiments but one has to ask themselves why this is taking place. I think the problem lies in the fact that we have an OL that is built to excel at the zone blocking scheme but is expected to execute a straight up, power blocking scheme which they aren't suited for. This philosophy and it's failure is not the fault of the OL but rather the fault of the head coach.

All we heard in the off season was how intelligent the head coach was and how he believed in adapting the system to fit the skill set of the players which resulted in maximum efficiency. To date, I have failed to see this type of adaption and instead, have seen a coach beat his head against a brick wall while trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. It's painfully obvious that the power running game scheme is not working so why not utilize the zone blocking scheme instead? Not only do we have the personnel to run the ZBS effectively but we have coaches that excel at teaching it. The running game could be much more effective if the head coach was willing to adapt.

I feel the head coach will never commit to the ZBS because it smells of Shanny and arguably represents the best rushing team in the last 15 years of the NFL. If the new coach comes in, retains the ZBS and has success the credit will still fall on Shanny rather then the new coach and what he brought with him.

As fans of the Broncos we were lucky to watch very successful running attacks year after year. As a result we became accustomed to success in the running game and expected nothing less then excellence. We've also become very astute at watching and understanding what makes an NFL team successful in the running game so our opinions are very informed and intelligent. When fans criticize the new coach for not utilizing Peyton Hillis in the running game it's because we've seen first hand the impact this particular player has made. Not only did he step in and not hurt the team but his presence on the field can arguably be the reason for the offense's success in the games he played. The Broncos' fans are smart fans when it comes to running backs and our opinions are valid which is why we are dumbfounded as to why the new coach is not utilizing Peyton Hillis.

This coach and Bowlen's decision to trash the Shanny rebuilding process after 2 years has set the organization back at least 2 years. Instead of having a solid foundation on offense with work to be done on defense and special teams we now need to fix all three phases of the game. This offense has taken a step back and is a few years out from success on any level. The defense, despite it's early success still needs a major overhaul. There are just to many senior citizens on the unit and young talent needs to be developed.

The Broncos are in another rebuilding process.

DBroncos4life
12-22-2009, 03:21 PM
I guess that its Adrian Petersons fault that he hasn't rushed for over 100 yards in 5 games. He must be the problem according to Woody Paige, if he is going to blast Moreno.

The 15 rushing TDs (career high) he has this year is softening the blow for Vikings fans.

brother love
12-22-2009, 03:25 PM
You're playing with a double edged sword with that argument.

What I was getting at is that statistics are misleading sometimes. In no way is Tatum Bell even close to the running back that Moreno is now.

ohiobronco2
12-22-2009, 03:35 PM
I thought fumbling was a negative thing?

Adrian Peterson has 6 fumbles this year, I guess Moreno is better than him as well. Good call.

Arkie
12-22-2009, 03:52 PM
Obviously, McD is full of BS. I thought Hillis was going to see an expanded role against the Raiders with Buck out. That's what McD said last week. He also said Hillis is doing everything they expected him to do. ::) You know that's a lie because he said he would expand his role this year. Maybe it's Hillis's fault that he's not the same as last year, but why does McD have to lie and say he's doing everything as expected? I take this to mean that Hillis is still as good as he was last year, maybe even better.

Arkie
12-22-2009, 04:10 PM
<--- The Jets were 3rd.


If McDaniels rigidly intends to stick with Moreno, the coach must call for the pass 50 times in Philadelphia to have a chance to win. The Eagles are 10th in the league against the rush. The Raiders are 28th.

Less Moreno, please.



The last time a Broncos back rushed for 129 yards was against the Jets. He was on pace to top that in the next game before he got hurt. The argument isn't whether he's good enough. It's more about McD's stubborn pride and dishosesty when he's called out.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 04:29 PM
Despite what NFL coaches and owners want the fans to believe there are bonafied rebuilding years in every NFL franchise. For Denver, the rebuilding process started when Cutler replaced Plummer whether the organization admitted it or not..

Shanny always preached that he did not rebuild. Take that however you want. It's your opinion that the team started to rebuild when Cutler was promoted to starting QB. It's my opinion that Shanny felt he the offense was limited by Plummer and so he inserted Cutler.

That ain't rebuilding, sorry. And, Shanny would agree with me

I think all rational NFL fans will allow 2 to 3 years for the rebuilding process to develop and results to be seen. Shanny and the Broncos were basically 2 years into the rebuilding process with much success on the offensive side of the ball and poised to be very prolific in the upcoming years. All that was left was to work on the defense and special teams and you're looking at Super Bowls runs in the 2010 and up seasons. Why Bowlen fired Shanny in year 2 of the rebuilding process is a mystery when a good portion of that process was completed.

According to Shanny, the Broncos were not rebuilding. Why do you rebuild a 13-3 team? You don't.

As for fixing the defense, this was Shanny's ultimate demise. He dumped Coyer who is actually a good defensive coordinator and replaced him with Bates and then dumped Bates and replaced him with Slowick.

If you want to say the Broncos started rebuilding when Cutler was promoted, I'm gonna call BS on you and say the Broncos defense collapsed when Al Wilson went down with his injury.

That's what happened.


It's been speculated that Bowlen canned Shanny because Shanny refused to make major changes on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe years of revolving door defensive coordinators and the ineffectiveness they exhibited made Shanny realize that the stop gaps were not working and that the current DC needed time to develop the defensive unit. Maybe this is why Shanny decided to not overhaul the defensive coaching staff and instead elected to retain the staff.

Maybe Shanny just thought he was smarter than eveyone else and Bowlen had enough of his mediocrity. Yah, maybe that's it.

As far as No-Show is concerned I do not see him as a top flight NFL running back. His yards are empty yards, his presence doesn't command respect from the defense, he doesn't control the tempo of the game, and he fails to make people miss when he get's into the secondary.

Completely your opinion and nothing more.

It's been said in this thread that we should give him a break because he's a rookie but I beg to differ. When TD was a rookie he did everything No-Show hasn't. TD's yards controlled the tempo of the game, TD's presence on the field made defenses respect the run and TD made defenders miss when he got into the secondary. The point is that everything TD did was meaningful and had a positive outcome on the game whereas Moreno's productivity is not directly correlated with the success of the team. There's nothing special about Moreno.

TD was a special running back, no doubt. He was also a 6th round pick and he was hungry as hell to impress the coaching staff. Now, whether you like Moreno or not, he was a highly touted first round pick and considered by many draft experts to be the best RB in the draft. In other words, perhaps Moreno is taking his position for granted. But that is a far cry from what you are suggesting, that is, that he is overrated.

Additionally, many members have brought up the ineffectiveness of the offensive line in their defense of Moreno. I agree with these sentiments but one has to ask themselves why this is taking place. I think the problem lies in the fact that we have an OL that is built to excel at the zone blocking scheme but is expected to execute a straight up, power blocking scheme which they aren't suited for. This philosophy and it's failure is not the fault of the OL but rather the fault of the head coach.

I completely agree.

All we heard in the off season was how intelligent the head coach was and how he believed in adapting the system to fit the skill set of the players which resulted in maximum efficiency. To date, I have failed to see this type of adaption and instead, have seen a coach beat his head against a brick wall while trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. It's painfully obvious that the power running game scheme is not working so why not utilize the zone blocking scheme instead? Not only do we have the personnel to run the ZBS effectively but we have coaches that excel at teaching it. The running game could be much more effective if the head coach was willing to adapt.

Yep.

I feel the head coach will never commit to the ZBS because it smells of Shanny and arguably represents the best rushing team in the last 15 years of the NFL. If the new coach comes in, retains the ZBS and has success the credit will still fall on Shanny rather then the new coach and what he brought with him.

Perhaps your right and if this is the case, shame on McD.

As fans of the Broncos we were lucky to watch very successful running attacks year after year. As a result we became accustomed to success in the running game and expected nothing less then excellence. We've also become very astute at watching and understanding what makes an NFL team successful in the running game so our opinions are very informed and intelligent. When fans criticize the new coach for not utilizing Peyton Hillis in the running game it's because we've seen first hand the impact this particular player has made. Not only did he step in and not hurt the team but his presence on the field can arguably be the reason for the offense's success in the games he played. The Broncos' fans are smart fans when it comes to running backs and our opinions are valid which is why we are dumbfounded as to why the new coach is not utilizing Peyton Hillis.

Jury is still out on Hillis. He may be his own worst enemy or McD may simply just want to give Moreno as many chances as possible.

This coach and Bowlen's decision to trash the Shanny rebuilding process after 2 years has set the organization back at least 2 years. Instead of having a solid foundation on offense with work to be done on defense and special teams we now need to fix all three phases of the game. This offense has taken a step back and is a few years out from success on any level. The defense, despite it's early success still needs a major overhaul. There are just to many senior citizens on the unit and young talent needs to be developed.

Shanny was not rebuilding, just ask Shanny and Bowlen. If you understand this then you understand why Shanny had to go.

The Broncos are in another rebuilding process.

Thanks to Shanahan and his "We don't rebuild" philosophy, the McD coaching staff was force to make some big choices. The Defense is already better but still a work in progress. The offense and special teams are still a work in progress. Offense will take the longest to gell.

rastaman
12-22-2009, 04:30 PM
What I was getting at is that statistics are misleading sometimes. In no way is Tatum Bell even close to the running back that Moreno is now.

Maybe Moreno can bounce back next season and have an impact the Baltimore's Ray Rice has delivered this year.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 04:32 PM
Shanny was not rebuilding, just ask Shanny and Bowlen. If you understand this then you understand why Shanny had to go.





Of course we were rebuilding. Who couldn't look at the roster and see that for themselves without needing to get the Broncos spin on it?

rastaman
12-22-2009, 04:40 PM
Obviously, McD is full of BS. I thought Hillis was going to see an expanded role against the Raiders with Buck out. That's what McD said last week. He also said Hillis is doing everything they expected him to do. ::) You know that's a lie because he said he would expand his role this year. Maybe it's Hillis's fault that he's not the same as last year, but why does McD have to lie and say he's doing everything as expected? I take this to mean that Hillis is still as good as he was last year, maybe even better.

Arkie....one can only imagine the endless multitude of lies and head games McD has put Hillis thru in the 2009 season. At this stage if Hillis was to secretly say that McD has integrity issues and he can't be trusted, no one would argue with him.

McD started "Mind-F*$king" Hillis the moment he told Hillis he's demoting him down to special teams as a "FULL-TIME" starter and giving Hillis few reps with the the first team offense to even learn McD's new offensive scheme.

Hillis endured and bought into McD's Rah-Rah BS with the understanding that he'd get opportunities rush and pass catch with 10-15 opportunities, which he was never given. All McD did was mostly lie to Hillis this season and that's insult enough.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 04:48 PM
Of course we were rebuilding. Who couldn't look at the roster and see that for themselves without needing to get the Broncos spin on it?

So, you rebuild a 13-3 team?

Hmmmm, ok.

Fact is, Shanahan repeated stated to the press that he did not believe in "rebuilding" and that the Broncos did not rebuild.

He thought Griese could step in for Elway and the Broncos would still compete. He was wrong.

He thought Cutler could step in for Plummer and the Broncos would be back in the playoffs. He was wrong.

Shanny thought a lot of things, and he was wrong about a lot of things. It happens.

Popps
12-22-2009, 05:04 PM
And we should've started Chris Simms.


Shut up, Woodrow.


Lock it up.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 05:18 PM
So, you rebuild a 13-3 team?

Hmmmm, ok.

Fact is, Shanahan repeated stated to the press that he did not believe in "rebuilding" and that the Broncos did not rebuild.

He thought Griese could step in for Elway and the Broncos would still compete. He was wrong.

He thought Cutler could step in for Plummer and the Broncos would be back in the playoffs. He was wrong.

Shanny thought a lot of things, and he was wrong about a lot of things. It happens.


I think you mistake rhetoric for reality. Anyone could see we were going through a rebuilding stage. We had new defensive coaches, new offensive draftees, and a cycle of stop gap defenders.

Baba Booey
12-22-2009, 05:21 PM
Woody is a ****ing moron. It's as though he didn't even watch Sunday's game. Doesn't he realize that when a running back loses yardage it's almost always because he has two guys staring him in the face when he gets the football? Yeah, well, that was Moreno's experience on Sunday. He had Raiders all over him once he got the football and even if he didn't, there was no push and no holes to run through.

Our run blocking was horrid on Sunday and has been all season in short-yardage situations. We get absolutely no push and Knowshon is suffering from that.

cutthemdown
12-22-2009, 05:41 PM
The blocking in Denver is at an all time low as far as the run game goes.

To be this bad IMO it's probably some Moreno not being good enough, and oline not blocking well.

If both get better in offseason its fixable. To do it though it may mean trying to find a big guard in FA, and then also drafting a big guard that can play early in his career.

Not sure about center or what will happen there. Not really to thrilled with anyone on the roster for that spot. Couple young players we haven't seen much of but looks like we could use help there also.

cutthemdown
12-22-2009, 05:43 PM
I think you mistake rhetoric for reality. Anyone could see we were going through a rebuilding stage. We had new defensive coaches, new offensive draftees, and a cycle of stop gap defenders.

Exactly people started talking like Andre Davis, Hill, Goodman, Haggan and even Dawkins are solutions to the Broncos woes. All it did was make this yr not suck as bad as it would have with the scrubs we had yr earlier.

Mcbean and Peterson decent, but really we need a stud DE also.

Still going to be a process that could get worst before it gets better. Now would that mean less wins next yr? Maybe not because a worst team can get more wins just with an easier schedule. Who knows though when you cant even beat Raiders.

Popps
12-22-2009, 07:14 PM
Of course we were rebuilding. Who couldn't look at the roster and see that for themselves without needing to get the Broncos spin on it?

Right. We were rebuilding by signing...

-Niko Whothe****amI
-Boss Bailey
-Marlon McCree

as the solution to our defensive woes.

Keeping John Engelberger as an NFL starter must have been part of the rebuilding process.

I guess the rebuilding started when we dumped Pryce and let Warren go to the Raiders.

Or, maybe it was the decision to hire Bates, fire him... then hire Slowick, watch him destroy the defense... and then claim that he was coming back.

It's hard to say what part of the "rebuild" was the most exciting.

I guess at least we hit on a couple of good wide receivers and an OT in the draft, or we may as well have been an expansion team.

Rebuild.

Ha!

wandlc
12-22-2009, 07:15 PM
The worst part about the last game is an inferior O-line gashed the Broncos D for 239 rushing yds using the ZBS that was abandoned by our brilliant coach.

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:00 PM
So, you rebuild a 13-3 team?

Hmmmm, ok.

Fact is, Shanahan repeated stated to the press that he did not believe in "rebuilding" and that the Broncos did not rebuild.

He thought Griese could step in for Elway and the Broncos would still compete. He was wrong.

He thought Cutler could step in for Plummer and the Broncos would be back in the playoffs. He was wrong.

Shanny thought a lot of things, and he was wrong about a lot of things. It happens.

Offense was drastically better though. Defense is what fell apart.

The worst part about Shanahan is that he would never admit rebuilding is what was needed. That and he wouldn't adopt the 3-4/ditching Slowik.

lex
12-22-2009, 08:29 PM
I'm glad Woody wrote this. Not because it tears on Knowshon, which is slightly unfair this early in his career, but more because it puts the light on Peyton Hillis who McDaniels refuses to play, refuses to discuss in the most arrogant fashion. His stubborness was highlighted against Oakland and really the last few weeks in short yardage, as McDaniels has defaulted to calliing QB sneaks over and over on 3rd/4th and short. (PATHETIC)

More light is being shown in on McDaniels personality as a tiny Napoleanic figure who won't have ANYBODY telling him what to do. Connect the dots in the offseason with things like this and it makes a lot of sense why things have been as rigid as they have since Josh signed on to this outfit.

Josh is more willing to lose proving he's right, vs admitting he's wrong and winning.

Knowshon is a solid player but has obvious flaws which is why I didn't want him at #12. He was overvalued there. I like that he can run, catch and block but does he do any of those exceptionally well? Is he a difference maker? No. Not really. Maybe he grows into one and yes, with a better offensive line, it will help but i don't think he's too far off from where he will be with more seasoning. Too often he runs east and west, too often he goes down on first contact, too often he looks dinged up, too often his high gear is 4.59.

In the coming seasons, we'll need to pair him up with a backfield mate.

Overvalued? You could be right about that. But one other thing is that people made so much out of how he could pass block. Sorry, but he plays running back, not left tackle. It seems like so many have lost sight of the fact that a RBs primary function is to run the football.

Another issue is that it seemed from the outset that Moreno had put on weight/muscle. One can only guess why. If he did it because McDaniels designated him to run inside, this only underscores how Hillis has been ignored. If Moreno put on the weight for this reason, it should nudge the speculation away from the idea that Hillis' lack of playing time was because he fumbled. It would suggest that Hillis was never in the picture. But it would also, in a way, reveal how Moreno is kind of getting a raw deal since a lot of his runs go at our weak link in our offensive line...over and over. Buckhalter has a higher percentage of his runs to the outside...at least it seems that way...yet, Moreno is often compared to Buckhalter.

The jury is still out on Moreno. He is still unproven.

Ambiguous
12-22-2009, 09:11 PM
Right. We were rebuilding by signing...

-Niko Whothe****amI
-Boss Bailey
-Marlon McCree

as the solution to our defensive woes.

Keeping John Engelberger as an NFL starter must have been part of the rebuilding process.

I guess the rebuilding started when we dumped Pryce and let Warren go to the Raiders.

Or, maybe it was the decision to hire Bates, fire him... then hire Slowick, watch him destroy the defense... and then claim that he was coming back.

It's hard to say what part of the "rebuild" was the most exciting.

I guess at least we hit on a couple of good wide receivers and an OT in the draft, or we may as well have been an expansion team.

Rebuild.

Ha!

I was kinda sad when he got cut because I knew I would miss your rants about him. They were a staple of 2008.

In the end I guess the Denver defense not being horrific outweighed the importance of those little gems, but I'll always have a soft spot for them.

MaloCS
12-22-2009, 09:41 PM
Right. We were rebuilding by signing...

-Niko Whothe****amI
-Boss Bailey
-Marlon McCree

as the solution to our defensive woes.

Keeping John Engelberger as an NFL starter must have been part of the rebuilding process.

I guess the rebuilding started when we dumped Pryce and let Warren go to the Raiders.

Or, maybe it was the decision to hire Bates, fire him... then hire Slowick, watch him destroy the defense... and then claim that he was coming back.

It's hard to say what part of the "rebuild" was the most exciting.

I guess at least we hit on a couple of good wide receivers and an OT in the draft, or we may as well have been an expansion team.

Rebuild.

Ha!

Most of the problem with the Broncos defense of years past was the revolving door of defensive coordinators and their differing philosophies and systems. This leads to a talent pool that doesn't fit the scheme of the current coordinator and a dependency of stop gap free agents. Ultimately, this revolving door loses it's steam and the efficiency and productivity of the unit falters.

For years, Shanny focused on building the offense while trying to plug the defense with free agent stop gaps. Not only was this the prevailing philosophy but hiring new defensive coordinators with different philosophies only added to the dilemma. When coordinator A comes in and acquires a specific set of players to execute his scheme those players will more then likely not fit the scheme of coordinator B the following year. This enigma is magnified when coordinator C comes in the year after B.

Since this is the case what does the coach and coordinator do? They scour the market for free agent hopefuls that they believe can come in with minimal coaching and be productive. This philosophy may work in the short term but only at the expense of the long term. I feel Shanny came to realize this which is why he refused to overhaul the defensive staff and allow them the necessary time to acquire the talent to execute their scheme. I also believe that Shanny felt his offense was completed, minus a few tweaks here and there and therefore, was ready to take on the task of building the defense, minus the stop gap free agents. Unfortunately this opportunity was not allowed to transpire.

So what does this mean in the overall scheme of things? It means that NFL owners and coaches are drinking their own Kool-Aid when they refuse to acknowledge that their team is rebuilding. Any astute businessman understands that it takes a fair amount of time to build a quality organization and the NFL is no different. Unfortunately, the new coach is exhibiting the same traits as the old coach by releasing young players with potential for aging veterans (i.e. Ty Law). Unfortunately, these moves only hurt the long term success of the team.

By not using Hillis in the offense the new coach is sacrificing the long term success of the team. In Hillis, the Broncos have a very talented back that can attack the defense on various levels. Is Hillis the next TD? Hell no, but Hillis can be the next Howard Griffith. If I remember correctly Griffith was a huge factor in the success of the running game as well as the short passing game during the Super Bowl years. Having a dynamic player like Hillis on the roster is a huge asset and should be utilized. Why the new coach is overlooking a quality young back for the likes of Lamont Jordan is perplexing. Lamont Jordan is not a long term solution while Hillis can be exactly that. The new coach needs to adapt his scheme to take advantage of the dynamic that Hillis presents.

strafen
12-22-2009, 09:45 PM
Any other article Woody writes is garbage but this one will be crowned as the truth.
Some of you people are too much.:pity:Even when numbers and stats to educate the stupid fans like you, you still manage to ignore it altogether, numbers don't lie.
Why is it garbage?
Don't open your mouth unless you have something intelligent to say, moron!

strafen
12-22-2009, 09:48 PM
Woody is a ****ing moron. It's as though he didn't even watch Sunday's game. Doesn't he realize that when a running back loses yardage it's almost always because he has two guys staring him in the face when he gets the football? Yeah, well, that was Moreno's experience on Sunday. He had Raiders all over him once he got the football and even if he didn't, there was no push and no holes to run through.

Our run blocking was horrid on Sunday and has been all season in short-yardage situations. We get absolutely no push and Knowshon is suffering from that.He's not talking about Sunday dude, though he did mention the Raiders are 28th against the rush.
He just showed you the tendencies of Moreno backed-up by numbers.
That's hard to dispute and accuse somebody of being a ****ing moron when the numbers he's showing YOU he didn't make up...

strafen
12-22-2009, 09:55 PM
An inconsistent rookie running back? Who would have thunk it!

Actually, he's been consistent.
Steady 63 ypg, no 100-yard game in 14 games, that's pretty consistent to me...

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:00 PM
Right. We were rebuilding by signing...

-Niko Whothe****amI
-Boss Bailey
-Marlon McCree

as the solution to our defensive woes.

Keeping John Engelberger as an NFL starter must have been part of the rebuilding process.

I guess the rebuilding started when we dumped Pryce and let Warren go to the Raiders.

Or, maybe it was the decision to hire Bates, fire him... then hire Slowick, watch him destroy the defense... and then claim that he was coming back.

It's hard to say what part of the "rebuild" was the most exciting.

I guess at least we hit on a couple of good wide receivers and an OT in the draft, or we may as well have been an expansion team.

Rebuild.

Ha!

You are mistaking the stop-gaps with the scaffolding. Not suprising. When the wind blows, you'll change your opinion - just like you've given up on the idea that we should focus on defense for the idea that offensive line is the source of our woes.

The wind blows and you change your opinion, despite the fact that our defense is still in a state of flux.

It's a mistake to abandon the ZBS. But the wind is blowing that way so I'm sure that's the way you'll argue.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 10:01 PM
By the way. I know what part of the rebuild was most exciting. The offense. It was one of the rising young offenses in the game. You said so yourself. But the wind changed direction, and now you're making arguments that the entire team was doomed.

Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

Popps
12-22-2009, 10:03 PM
You are mistaking the stop-gaps with the scaffolding. Not suprising. When the wind blows, you'll change your opinion - just like you've given up on the idea that we should focus on defense for the idea that offensive line is the source of our woes..

Really? I gave up improving the defense?

First I've heard of that.

Of course, we made massive improvements on defense, so now we have the luxury of being able to address several team needs instead of just one.

Abandon the defense?

Please. You know better than that, and so does anyone who's paying attention.

watermock
12-22-2009, 10:09 PM
The worst part about the last game is an inferior O-line gashed the Broncos D for 239 rushing yds using the ZBS that was abandoned by our brilliant coach.

Go figure!

ZONA
12-22-2009, 10:09 PM
On the five plays that Knowshon lost yards, the Oline got stuffed. No, let me put that another way, they got driven backwards. Woody is an ass. This is one of those columns where you stir up **** to sell papers. In other words, a Kizla column. When this Oline gets fixed next year, everybody will suddenly discover that Moreno is a great runner. Eureka! And there will be a hundred threads on the Mane of people saying, "See? I always knew he was going to be great." blah, blah, blah

I agree there were some runs where he had no chance but Moreno is making enough mistakes on his own also. On that short and goal on the wide sweep to the right, he was wrong to settle for trying to cut up around the hash. Buckhalter I guarantee you would have dashed to the pylon and got in. That TD was there to be had and I think he just made a bad judgment on that play. He could have also made that pylon with probably a diving stretch. It's stuff like that we hoped the #12 pick could make.

bpc
12-22-2009, 10:10 PM
By the way. I know what part of the rebuild was most exciting. The offense. It was one of the rising young offenses in the game. You said so yourself. But the wind changed direction, and now you're making arguments that the entire team was doomed.

Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

HAHA!

Popps loves to quote the old posts but deflects when his are called into question. Love it.

watermock
12-22-2009, 10:21 PM
Moreno is slow and tenative. His burst is AFTER he hits the hole, not THRU it. And even then, he doesn't have a second gear.

Nowhere near a confident runner.

Can't slash/create his own seam.

Not instinctive/doesn't see the play developing.

Just saying. Love the guy, but he's just not elite. Sammy Winder 2.0.

SJ Bronco
12-22-2009, 10:26 PM
http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/images/map-nap-war1812.gif

comparisons to napoleon show a lack of historical knowledge...... I beg you to stop it

MaloCS
12-22-2009, 10:29 PM
Actually, he's been consistent.
Steady 63 ypg, no 100-yard game in 14 games, that's pretty consistent to me...

Very true. Moreno is not a special NFL running back. He's average at best and mediocre at worst.

For the last 10+ years we watched Shanny field running backs that were dynamic and game breakers. With all due respect to the current regime their choice of backs lack the play making ability we've come to expect from the Denver Broncos in the running game. Buckhalter and Jordan are stop gaps and Moreno lacks the "it" factor that previous Broncos' running backs had.

Even if we try and give Moreno the benefit of the doubt for an offensive line that seems to be struggling with the change in blocking schemes he should be showing glimpses of greatness when he reaches the secondary. Unfortunately, when Moreno does reach the secondary he falls down at first contact, he fails to make defenders miss, he lacks break away speed and he often trips over his own feet. The point is that if Moreno was a diamond in the rough he would not be exhibiting these tendencies week in and week out. He would, at some point, show some sort of talent that convinced the current coach to draft him at the twelve spot.

As fans of the Broncos we know what quality running backs look like. We know what it means for a running back to take control of the ball game. We know what it looks like for a back to make defenders miss. We know these things because we've seen it time and time again and unfortunately, Moreno is not exhibiting any of these factors that would make me or any other rational fan hopeful for the next TD. Even though Moreno is a rookie and running behind a confused and inefficient offensive line he should still be showing glimpses of greatness.

KipCorrington25
12-22-2009, 10:33 PM
Undersized, slow, fumbles, not exactly what you expect from the 12th pick, that should be a franchise type back that can carry the load... Knowshow is not even close to that, if he was a 4th round pick I'd think that was about right from what I've seen. Bust

Fusionfrontman
12-22-2009, 10:45 PM
I love Moreno and I do think with a much stronger OL he will/can be a 1500 yard back... but as someone else said he is the NE 3rd down RB. Catch, block, run for 1st downs(we're still waiting for this one) etc. Kevin Faulk-ish.

However, and this had nothign to do with me being a Rutgers Alum.... we should have taken Ray Rice last year. Man he is a beast.

Popps
12-22-2009, 11:03 PM
HAHA!

Popps loves to quote the old posts but deflects when his are called into question. Love it.

Umm... I called for defensive improvements. We made them.

We're all happy.

(Except you, of course... who prays for our failure so your Jay Cutler is our Savior posts look less like the drivel they were.)

BroncoMan4ever
12-22-2009, 11:55 PM
It's a mistake to abandon the ZBS. But the wind is blowing that way so I'm sure that's the way you'll argue.

i don't think it is a mistake to abandon the ZBS, teams are becoming more adept at stopping it in recent years with many teams adopting it as their running style. the mistake with the change is doing it, when we don't have the correct type of linemen necessary to change the scheme.

the problem with our running game is that, outside of Clady, Harris(when healthy) and possibly Kuper, we don't have linemen strong enough to do anything other than the ZBS, which is causing our running game to look like garbage.

KipCorrington25
12-23-2009, 01:11 AM
The Raiders O-Line with Carlise, Cornell Green, and Pears in for a few playes, all guys we ran out of here had no problem running the ball but hey, their backs are all head and shoulders above Knowshow so the excuses about the O Line hold no water.

watermock
12-23-2009, 02:08 AM
The Raiders O-Line with Carlise, Cornell Green, and Pears in for a few playes, all guys we ran out of here had no problem running the ball but hey, their backs are all head and shoulders above Knowshow so the excuses about the O Line hold no water.


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extralife
12-23-2009, 02:45 AM
Moreno is not a special NFL running back. He's average at best and mediocre at worst.

I'm just going to jump in here and say people are stupid. Do you know what mediocre means? It means average. I am sick of 90% of the people in this universe using it as a synonym for terrible.

brother love
12-23-2009, 03:35 AM
The worst part about the last game is an inferior O-line gashed the Broncos D for 239 rushing yds using the ZBS that was abandoned by our brilliant coach.

Every long run was the same play. a cut back to the weak side of the field. Just like in the Pittsburgh game. over and over again. Someone on the defense isn't doing their job staying at home.

WolfpackGuy
12-23-2009, 07:20 AM
Who needs a running game when they have a left tackle with track star speed, cat like quickness, and hands of glue?

DB Doom
12-23-2009, 07:26 AM
Woody wasn't writing this to show what a know it all he is..he's hoping McD sees what everyone is saying and maybe makes a change so Denver can squeak in the playoffs..and regardless of what happens then, the year was a success..NOBODY expects..expected or wants Denver to make the playoffs cuz then everyone would be wrong.

Broncoman13
12-23-2009, 07:37 AM
My guess is that the coaches, including Bobby Turner, see something in practice that we're not seeing. Since I consider BT the best RBs coach in the NFL, I'll go with his decision on who's ready to play.

Actually it has everything to do with Josh McD. There have been SEVERAL reports that he has stated that he will not play Hillis regardless. Certainly his option as the coach, but sad as well. The truth of the matter is that McD will not put him in the game b/c he is fearful that he will be successful. If Hillis runs well then McD has to acknowledge that he was wrong. For McD it is more beneficial to look right then to unleash a new potential weapon for an offense that is really struggling. Kind of sad and it reminds me of how stubborn he was when he first came to Denver. You know, granting interviews to ESPN and NFL Network but snubbing the local guys. Making players like Champ Bailey sit out for failing conditioning tests. It was bad enough that the owner had to step in at the very beginning and let his young coach know that there were some things that wouldn't fly in "this old cow town".

Broncoman13
12-23-2009, 07:43 AM
Really? I gave up improving the defense?

First I've heard of that.

Of course, we made massive improvements on defense, so now we have the luxury of being able to address several team needs instead of just one.

Abandon the defense?

Please. You know better than that, and so does anyone who's paying attention.

Did Coach McD allow you to have this thought? You better hope to dear god that he doesn't make an unexpected turn, your head is so far up his ass he'd snap your neck in a heartbeat...

Do you realize that you won't even disagree with the coach, even when he is clearly wrong. It's like an unsafe love affair. You may need to see someone about this...freak.

~Crash~
12-23-2009, 08:04 AM
On the five plays that Knowshon lost yards, the Oline got stuffed. No, let me put that another way, they got driven backwards. Woody is an ass. This is one of those columns where you stir up **** to sell papers. In other words, a Kizla column. When this Oline gets fixed next year, everybody will suddenly discover that Moreno is a great runner. Eureka! And there will be a hundred threads on the Mane of people saying, "See? I always knew he was going to be great." blah, blah, blah

daaaaaaaaaaaaaa should be your name on here:giggle:

~Crash~
12-23-2009, 08:07 AM
power is the right Idea . I love Power football but if you are struggling with power it is time to run with zone until you can make changes in personnel

elsid13
12-23-2009, 08:09 AM
So I read somewhere that Logan stated McDaniels told him that Denver ran zone all game against the Raiders. Did anyone hear that?

~Crash~
12-23-2009, 08:10 AM
the raiders beat us with two basic plays sad really....

~Crash~
12-23-2009, 08:11 AM
So I read somewhere that Logan stated McDaniels told him that Denver ran zone all game against the Raiders. Did anyone hear that?no way

Beantown Bronco
12-23-2009, 08:16 AM
So I read somewhere that Logan stated McDaniels told him that Denver ran zone all game against the Raiders. Did anyone hear that?

I read that after the Indy game last week. Supposedly that's what they were running at least part of the time in Indy. I'm not about to re-watch to verify.

Didn't see any mention of it this week though.

elsid13
12-23-2009, 08:18 AM
no way

It was over on Broncostalk, that why I am asking.

As for Moreno. He strength is following his blocks and making a move when he one on one with LB. He doesn't have great feet in the hole and I don't think he very good at the cut back. Last season in the draft section I stated that I didn't see what the hype was about since he neither power or speed screamed 1st round back. He's not bad, but he needs to work on his game in off season - more lower body strength - to become a Chris Brown type of player for Denver

Rohirrim
12-23-2009, 08:45 AM
daaaaaaaaaaaaaa should be your name on here:giggle:

Sorry, I don't speak troglodyte. Try English. You'll like it.

TonyR
12-23-2009, 10:03 AM
The Raiders O-Line with Carlise, Cornell Green, and Pears in for a few playes, all guys we ran out of here had no problem running the ball but hey, their backs are all head and shoulders above Knowshow so the excuses about the O Line hold no water.

People keep making such comments without any acknowledgement that Oakland's defensive front played a lot better than ours.

Broncos4tw
12-23-2009, 10:52 AM
Our offense hasn't gone south. It's been south all year. The games we have won, our defense has dominated. The ones we have lost, they have not. We have had very few dominant games on offense. Our scoring is pathetically low.

So, our line is awesome for years.. we are a top running team every year in the league, until now? Now, it magically sucks? No, not really. Moreno has a few issues. He is a rookie though, he'll eventually learn to run north and south. In the meantime, especially in short yardage situations, it's completely STUPID to not run Hillis. He and the coaches have "seen" something in practice? Who gives a crap? He plays like a monster on gameday, that's all that matters.

Running your QB on 3rd and 4 instead of someone like Hillis is simply idiotic coaching at best. Between than, and the stupid toss to Clady, there went two drives in the redzone... which ended up as 6 points instead of 14, and ultimately cost us the game.

Poor playcalling, poor coaching, stubborness which is going to hurt our team more than help it, and an average, mediocre QB who teams are not the least bit frightened of, is the reason our offense looks pathetic.

lex
12-23-2009, 11:25 AM
for all the people convinced it's everyone else but moreno's fault. how does buckhalters success work in your blame others theory?

5.3 ypc for the buck

More of Buckhalters plays go outside and not into the teeth of the defense, where the weak link of the offensive line happens to be. Dont get me wrong, there is flaw to be found with Moreno as well. But its not all him and comparing him to Buckhalter is also somewhat flawed.