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Popps
12-21-2009, 11:07 PM
After the Denver Broncos lost the most embarrassing game of the season to the Oakland Raiders at home on Sunday, I realized the team's biggest flaw was the interior of the offensive line...


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/312588-2010-denver-broncos-nfl-draft-
player-profile-idaho-g-mike-iupati


Now this was not new news, as many Bronco fans have already pointed out that Denver's true weaknesses offensively have a lot to do with lack of experience in the system and a totally non-existent interior offensive line.

Led by veterans Casey Wiegmann and Russ Hochstein, the interior of Denver's line has a ton of experience. What they boast in the experience category is outweighed immensely by their inability to help the Broncos' offense move the ball on a consistent basis, especially in short yardage situations.

Denver was unable to run the ball against Oakland, and it is not the first time they have been shut down on the ground this season. Knowshon Moreno looked absolutely lost when running the ball on Sunday, and Kyle Orton was sacked three times.

The solution to these woes?

Denver must draft Idaho guard Mike Iupati at any cost and actually, the guy could turn out to be quite the bargain.

Iupati stands at 6'5" and roughly 330 pounds. He is a mammoth on the interior line and he plays with a mean streak. For the second straight season, he was named first team All-WAC, and was selected as a first team Walter Camp All-American for the Vandals. Not to mention he was also one of three finalists for the Outland Trophy, given to the nation's top interior lineman.

The Broncos' first round pick is going to turn out to be a very high one, as Jay Cutler and the Chicago Bears currently project to send Denver the seventh pick in the 2010 NFL draft as the final piece to the blockbuster trade that occurred this past offseason.

Obviously, Denver is not going to go after Iupati that early in the first round. What appears to be the best option is to trade down with anyone who is willing, and take Iupati later in the first round if they can. The only problem is going to be finding a suitor for that pick.

The Broncos do not need to trade down, as their top pick could turn out to be an elite level player like Rolando McClain or dare I sayŚNdamukong Suh.

Either way, the Broncos' interior offensive line is absolutely dreadful, and picking up Iupati would be a step in the right direction. Denver has lost whatever edge it had offensively, and they are failing to cash in from inside the 20.

I have been all about bringing in Seth Olsen in the past, and I think that is a route the Broncos definitely will explore. If Olsen can transition to center, and Iupati can be brought in to start at left guard, the Broncos will dance with joy.

Speaking of interior linemen, how about the performance of Denver's run defense on Sunday? Another pitiful output. The Oakland Raiders racked up nearly 250 total rushing yards against Denver, a number that is utterly unacceptable.

One player who may be able to stop that bleeding is Alabama defensive tackle Terrence Cody, who is an absolute space vacuum in the middle of the defensive line. Cody demands two blockers on every play, and would give the Broncos a huge weapon defensively.

These are two players I have not been so high on early in the draft scouting process, but I think they are two players the Broncos need to look at acquiring come draft day, and they need to look hard.

baja
12-21-2009, 11:13 PM
I'm not as high on Orton as I was just a few weeks ago but I say sign him to a modest contract and draft line men O & D linemen as the best route to improvement.

Nice article Popps..

Popps
12-21-2009, 11:19 PM
Thought it was a good read. Only part I'm not sure about is whether or not to blame the run D problems on the D-line. I haven't had the guts to watch the Tivo yet. But, any time you have three runs that take a team 90 yards, there are problems behind those three guys with their hand on the ground.

I seem to recall the big runs being to the weak side. Those were inexcusable after pinning a team down there on their goal line like that.

PRBronco
12-21-2009, 11:21 PM
Good read. If they could somehow finagle two picks in the middle of the first and end up with Cody and Iupati or an equivalently awesome interior linemen (are there any top notch centers?) that would go a huge way towards fixing our two biggest problems.

Not sure about this Seth Olsen at center business though.

Broncoman13
12-21-2009, 11:34 PM
Thought it was a good read. Only part I'm not sure about is whether or not to blame the run D problems on the D-line. I haven't had the guts to watch the Tivo yet. But, any time you have three runs that take a team 90 yards, there are problems behind those three guys with their hand on the ground.

I seem to recall the big runs being to the weak side. Those were inexcusable after pinning a team down there on their goal line like that.

This was discussed quite a bit today throughout Denver. This biggest issue was not matching Ayers, Doom, or Haggan up over the TE. They played the exact same defense almost the entire game and never moved an OLB over the TE to take away the "J" block they were using to seal Dawkins off. One simple move would have forced the TE to block head up rather than instant 2nd level. The game plan has been described as Vanilla and not wanting to show too much. Why at this point are they concerned with what they may or may not show?

Sassy
12-21-2009, 11:37 PM
This was discussed quite a bit today throughout Denver. This biggest issue was not matching Ayers, Doom, or Haggan up over the TE. They played the exact same defense almost the entire game and never moved an OLB over the TE to take away the "J" block they were using to seal Dawkins off. One simple move would have forced the TE to block head up rather than instant 2nd level. The game plan has been described as Vanilla and not wanting to show too much. Why at this point are they concerned with what they may or may not show?

Maybe it's "the NE way" ;D

meangene
12-22-2009, 02:47 AM
We clearly need interior OL help but trading back out of the top 10 is becoming more and more difficult because of contract issues. Maybe if someone is real high on Clausen or Bradford. I think we are looking at someone like McClain or Austin, the DT from UNC in terms of value with the first pick. I do think we will have some free agency options on the interior OL or could pick up some players later in the draft as interior offensive linemen are typically undervalued.

bpc
12-22-2009, 03:06 AM
I watched Iupati. He's a good player. Not without his own flaws but very strong, and solid. He isn't the most fleet of foot which strictly makes him a guard and a late 1st round prospect at best. I'm open to taking one of the stronger tackle high in the first round, if they warrant it, have a thick, strong, body with good feet and can play on the inside, and the outside.

fontaine
12-22-2009, 03:21 AM
Yeah thats great, the interior is weak so keep running the ball up the middle. Coaching 101 for McDummies.

watermock
12-22-2009, 03:25 AM
Coughlin ran much more innovative schemes 1'st Q monday than we did all day against oakland.

Wasn't even close.

watermock
12-22-2009, 03:33 AM
We clearly need interior OL help but trading back out of the top 10 is becoming more and more difficult because of contract issues. Maybe if someone is real high on Clausen or Bradford. I think we are looking at someone like McClain or Austin, the DT from UNC in terms of value with the first pick. I do think we will have some free agency options on the interior OL or could pick up some players later in the draft as interior offensive linemen are typically undervalued.

Why wouldn't be we interested in Bradford or Clausen or Cody?

Orton has the pocket presence of a blind armadillo.

rastaman
12-22-2009, 04:11 AM
Why wouldn't be we interested in Bradford or Clausen or Cody?

Orton has the pocket presence of a blind armadillo.

You can't convice "Popp-goes-the-Weasel" that Orton shouldn't be the starter next year.:~ohyah!:

For some reason Poppy just can't quit Orton.;D

Popps will give up on Orton when Bowlen and McD tells him to do so.

meangene
12-22-2009, 05:27 AM
Why wouldn't be we interested in Bradford or Clausen or Cody?

Orton has the pocket presence of a blind armadillo.

I think Orton has done enough to warrant another season or two to show what he can do with some decent OL play. Besides, Clausen or Bradford would be running into the same OL issues and would command more money simply by virtue of being QB's. Cody is really a late first round prospect who has to be limited in snaps to be effective due to his weight. I would look at him if we are able to trade back though.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 05:53 AM
I think Orton has done enough to warrant another season or two to show what he can do with some decent OL play. Besides, Clausen or Bradford would be running into the same OL issues and would command more money simply by virtue of being QB's. Cody is really a late first round prospect who has to be limited in snaps to be effective due to his weight. I would look at him if we are able to trade back though.

Orton has played good ball this year. Not great, but good. I seriously doubt that McDaniels is thinking about replacing him, especially with a high pick.

I think the first rounder, and possibly the 2nd should be spent on the D-Line. Talented centers and guards can be had in the mid to later rounds.

Traveler
12-22-2009, 05:59 AM
McClain or Gerald McCoy should be the pick if we stay put in round one. No OL coming out that worth it in the top 10 except a couple of OT's, which we don't need.

jhns
12-22-2009, 06:08 AM
I think Orton has done enough to warrant another season or two to show what he can do with some decent OL play. Besides, Clausen or Bradford would be running into the same OL issues and would command more money simply by virtue of being QB's. Cody is really a late first round prospect who has to be limited in snaps to be effective due to his weight. I would look at him if we are able to trade back though.

Other QBs wouldn't have the same o-line issues. Our line is bad at run blocking, not pass blocking. Our QB makes our line bad at pass blocking. Look at the first sack. He had a perfect pocket and just refused to step into it. He hung out 15 yards behind the line so the tackles had no way to push the ends around him. We have breakdowns, but no more than any other line.

I do agree we need interior o-line but I do not agree with using firsts on that. I also am not sure about the QBs. If McDaniels thinks one is good, I would like to take one. I don't want them to throw away a pick just to draft a QB. We need a lot of stuff so I would just take the best player available at this point. Get an impact player in the top 10.

Gort
12-22-2009, 06:29 AM
Orton has played good ball this year. Not great, but good. I seriously doubt that McDaniels is thinking about replacing him, especially with a high pick.

I think the first rounder, and possibly the 2nd should be spent on the D-Line. Talented centers and guards can be had in the mid to later rounds.

the problem with Orton is McD's playcalling and very short leash. i think Orton is a team guy and willing to do exactly what the coach says. i think Cutler is not like that and that's probably what McD's initial reaction was when meeting Cutler. if McD would open up the damned playbook and let the offense do more than dink and dunk, i think Orton could be adequate for a couple of years until a better option comes along via the draft or free agency. Orton's strength is not being reckless. his weakness is mobility. otherwise he seems adequate to me. but the playcalling and overall offensive strategy this year has been lacking.

strafen
12-22-2009, 06:47 AM
I think Orton has done enough to warrant another season or two to show what he can do with some decent OL play. Besides, Clausen or Bradford would be running into the same OL issues and would command more money simply by virtue of being QB's. Cody is really a late first round prospect who has to be limited in snaps to be effective due to his weight. I would look at him if we are able to trade back though.

Please?!
Guys, I saw Orton play enough when he was in Chicago.
He was a mediocre, average QB then, and he's a mediocre, andaverage QB now, and he will be a mediocre and average QB next year, and the year after.
Come on. The guy sucks!

Beantown Bronco
12-22-2009, 06:53 AM
Please?!
Guys, I saw Orton play enough when he was in Chicago.
He was a mediocre, average QB then, and he's a mediocre, andaverage QB now, and he will be a mediocre and average QB next year, and the year after.
Come on. The guy sucks!

By definition, you can't be both "mediocre/average" and "suck" at the same time.

strafen
12-22-2009, 06:58 AM
By definition, you can't be both "mediocre/average" and "suck" at the same time.Orton can...

bpc
12-22-2009, 07:00 AM
I think Orton has done enough to warrant another season or two to show what he can do with some decent OL play. Besides, Clausen or Bradford would be running into the same OL issues and would command more money simply by virtue of being QB's. Cody is really a late first round prospect who has to be limited in snaps to be effective due to his weight. I would look at him if we are able to trade back though.

I guess we could agree in a way. Orton deserves a mid-level contract to hold onto the reigns while a much better pupil learns under him. I don't mind him as a place-holder while we groom a rookie, and definitely don't mind his starting experience eventually as a backup.

So yeah, Orton should be resigned if the financials make success.

I wouldn't be paying this guy anywhere near the 5-8 million per season range though.

Natedogg
12-22-2009, 07:00 AM
Thought it was a good read. Only part I'm not sure about is whether or not to blame the run D problems on the D-line. I haven't had the guts to watch the Tivo yet. But, any time you have three runs that take a team 90 yards, there are problems behind those three guys with their hand on the ground.

I seem to recall the big runs being to the weak side. Those were inexcusable after pinning a team down there on their goal line like that.

According to my eyes, the biggest runs were due to missed tackles by Davis and Hagan.

cmhargrove
12-22-2009, 07:01 AM
McClain or Gerald McCoy should be the pick if we stay put in round one. No OL coming out that worth it in the top 10 except a couple of OT's, which we don't need.

I watch big 12 football, and I love Gerald mcCoy as a player, but where would you put him in our 3-4 defense? Are you saying you want to spend a top ten pick on a guy, then change his natural position? I loke him, but i'd rather take Cody because he is what he is - a big space eating fatty.

bpc
12-22-2009, 07:03 AM
McClain or Gerald McCoy should be the pick if we stay put in round one. No OL coming out that worth it in the top 10 except a couple of OT's, which we don't need.

Logan Mankins was an OT at Fresno, who was picked in the first round by the Patriots and eventually took a starting spot as a guard.

I think this is a legitimate option with some of the OT's on the board, but I do favor a stronger class at the defensive line position. Right now, McCoy (if we're lucky) or Derrick Morgan would be my selection barring Clausen sliding to us potentially.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 07:04 AM
You can't convice "Popp-goes-the-Weasel" that Orton shouldn't be the starter next year.:~ohyah!:

For some reason Poppy just can't quit Orton.;D

Popps will give up on Orton when Bowlen and McD tells him to do so.

So you'd rather start a rookie without a single minute of NFL experience over a guy with a career winning record?

And you wonder why people find you moronic.

bpc
12-22-2009, 07:10 AM
I watch big 12 football, and I love Gerald mcCoy as a player, but where would you put him in our 3-4 defense? Are you saying you want to spend a top ten pick on a guy, then change his natural position? I loke him, but i'd rather take Cody because he is what he is - a big space eating fatty.

In reality, i've seen OU run a 4-3/3-4 defense at various times the last two years and McCoy has played all across the LOS. He has experience playing 0-5 technique. I don't think a transition to a primarily 3-4 defense would be tough at all.

gtown
12-22-2009, 07:22 AM
Wouldn't it be great having two Pro-Bowl caliber lineman drafted from Idaho schools? Last place I would think would grow OL talent.

Orton has been pretty good, but not great. Why is there no middle ground on this guy, where he clearly belongs? All QBs need a good OL and we clearly don't have one. How effective can you be when you are pretty immobile as a QB and the interior line is being pushed right into your face. It's a wonder that he hasn't thrown more picks this year.

Blaming the QB for his ineptitude is just a symptom of deeper underlying issues, like the inability to protect the QB or even give him a credible threat through the run game.

strafen
12-22-2009, 07:23 AM
So you'd rather start a rookie without a single minute of NFL experience over a guy with a career winning record?

And you wonder why people find you moronic.I'd start a rookie over Orton any day.
The guy flat out sucks.
A winner?
Why people give this freakin' sloth too much credit when he wins?
He's yet to rally us from behind against a good team
He's yet to will this team to a win.
He's just not that guy. Period!

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 07:39 AM
So you'd rather start a rookie without a single minute of NFL experience over a guy with a career winning record?

And you wonder why people find you moronic.

Rookies are magical. During the draft they are given their magical powers.

Florida_Bronco
12-22-2009, 07:43 AM
the problem with Orton is McD's playcalling and very short leash. i think Orton is a team guy and willing to do exactly what the coach says. i think Cutler is not like that and that's probably what McD's initial reaction was when meeting Cutler. if McD would open up the damned playbook and let the offense do more than dink and dunk, i think Orton could be adequate for a couple of years until a better option comes along via the draft or free agency. Orton's strength is not being reckless. his weakness is mobility. otherwise he seems adequate to me. but the playcalling and overall offensive strategy this year has been lacking.

The play calling is going to be handicapped by the lack of inside running game (directly related to the play at LG and C) and the team still adjusting to the new system. I don't think Orton is much of the problem at all.

Ambiguous
12-22-2009, 07:47 AM
Orton can...

*sigh*

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:06 AM
Other QBs wouldn't have the same o-line issues. Our line is bad at run blocking, not pass blocking. Our QB makes our line bad at pass blocking. Look at the first sack. He had a perfect pocket and just refused to step into it. He hung out 15 yards behind the line so the tackles had no way to push the ends around him. We have breakdowns, but no more than any other line.

I do agree we need interior o-line but I do not agree with using firsts on that. I also am not sure about the QBs. If McDaniels thinks one is good, I would like to take one. I don't want them to throw away a pick just to draft a QB. We need a lot of stuff so I would just take the best player available at this point. Get an impact player in the top 10.

No, our OL is poor at pass blocking as well - particularly at C and LG (and RT with Harris out). The thing is Orton can't step up most of the time and has no lanes to step into because the defense is pushing our interior OL straight back on virtually every play. Thus, Orton has to set up deep which makes it tougher on the tackles. Like they were saying on the broadcast - given time, Orton will put the ball where it needs to be. We bought an extra year out of Hamilton and Weigman last year and the line was pretty healthy as well. Hamilton and Weigman became liabilities this year at the same time we had injury issues with Kuper and Harris. Give Orton a chance behind a decent OL with some good coaching and I think you will be surprised at the result.

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:12 AM
I guess we could agree in a way. Orton deserves a mid-level contract to hold onto the reigns while a much better pupil learns under him. I don't mind him as a place-holder while we groom a rookie, and definitely don't mind his starting experience eventually as a backup.

So yeah, Orton should be resigned if the financials make success.

I wouldn't be paying this guy anywhere near the 5-8 million per season range though.

I think he deserves a mid-level contract to see what he can do with a better offensive line and another year in the system. I agree he is a mid-level QB with what he has to work with right now. If we improve the porous OL and he does not perform at an accordingly higher level, then, yes, I think we begin grooming a replacement. But, for now, I think our priority needs to be improving in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 08:14 AM
I'd start a rookie over Orton any day.
The guy flat out sucks.
A winner?
Why people give this freakin' sloth too much credit when he wins?
He's yet to rally us from behind against a good team
He's yet to will this team to a win.
He's just not that guy. Period!

Oh, so I dreamed the comeback against New England?

And the comeback against Dallas?

Weird. Seemed so REAL. :rofl:

You're a moron dragster. Really. Plain and simple.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 08:15 AM
Rookies are magical. During the draft they are given their magical powers.

Well I thought so, but I wasn't sure.

What kind of magic is it? Black magic?

What kind of magic did JaFatass get? Hamburger magic? Pizza magic?

jhns
12-22-2009, 08:18 AM
No, our OL is poor at pass blocking as well - particularly at C and LG (and RT with Harris out). The thing is Orton can't step up most of the time and has no lanes to step into because the defense is pushing our interior OL straight back on virtually every play. Thus, Orton has to set up deep which makes it tougher on the tackles. Like they were saying on the broadcast - given time, Orton will put the ball where it needs to be. We bought an extra year out of Hamilton and Weigman last year and the line was pretty healthy as well. Hamilton and Weigman became liabilities this year at the same time we had injury issues with Kuper and Harris. Give Orton a chance behind a decent OL with some good coaching and I think you will be surprised at the result.

That is simply not true though. Look at his first sack this past game. The middle held perfect and Orton didn't step into the perfect pocket. You know the sack. He barely was touched with one hand from the defender and went down. The announces even pointed out the clean pocket on the replay.

Orton simply does not know how to work a pocket. He also doesn't manipulate it at all. If a defender is getting through easily, a QB can move to put the blocker back between him and the defender. All good QBs do this. They also all have a clock in their heads(this is how they "feel" a rush) that tells them when they need to step up and when they need to just release the ball. That clock should work even if you are getting 2 seconds. Orton can't feel the rush at all. We also have given him a lot of time, most of the time. He just takes forever to release a lot of times.

You guys are saying everyone else needs to play perfect in order to cover Ortons weaknesses. I say a better QB would make everyone else look a lot better. These same guys were considered the best last season. Now every single one of them has dropped off and looked far worse. The pass blocking should not be that different. Zone blocking is only a rushing scheme. It is pretty easy to see what the difference is.

bpc
12-22-2009, 08:18 AM
I think he deserves a mid-level contract to see what he can do with a better offensive line and another year in the system. I agree he is a mid-level QB with what he has to work with right now. If we improve the porous OL and he does not perform at an accordingly higher level, then, yes, I think we begin grooming a replacement. But, for now, I think our priority needs to be improving in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

The reality is, Orton hasn't won any championships and most likely will not ever. Increased talent around him or not, he won't ever out-duel a Peyton Manning in the playoffs... or even a Jamarcus Russell for that matter.

I agree, we have to develop the OL and DL. Both areas need more talent. Unfortunately if you have a crappy QB which is a harder position to find talent, it won't ever matter. Just look at Carolina this year. Last year. Their last 10 years. They've had some great defenses and good offenses. 0 championships. All because of the zero they have under center.

As for this Broncos team... we're more talent deprived in a lot of areas than it seems with a 8-6 record. Best we can do is take the BPA available this April and keep chipping away. It will be a process to totally remake a defense towards a 3-4, and adjust offensive schemes.

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:18 AM
I watch big 12 football, and I love Gerald mcCoy as a player, but where would you put him in our 3-4 defense? Are you saying you want to spend a top ten pick on a guy, then change his natural position? I loke him, but i'd rather take Cody because he is what he is - a big space eating fatty.

Virtually no one in college football runs a true 3-4 so you are most likely looking at somewhat of a projection when drafting 3-4 DE's. I think McCoy has the perfect skill set for that but I don't think he is available when we pick. Austin is similar and could be available. I think Fields and Thomas have done alright at NT this year and I would like to see if Baker can develop. I can't see spending an early first round pick on Cody - he is going to be a part-time player. Maybe if we trade back.

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:24 AM
The reality is, Orton hasn't won any championships and most likely will not ever. Increased talent around him or not, he won't ever out-duel a Peyton Manning in the playoffs... or even a Jamarcus Russell for that matter.

I agree, we have to develop the OL and DL. Both areas need more talent. Unfortunately if you have a crappy QB which is a harder position to find talent, it won't ever matter. Just look at Carolina this year. Last year. Their last 10 years. They've had some great defenses and good offenses. 0 championships. All because of the zero they have under center.

As for this Broncos team... we're more talent deprived in a lot of areas than it seems with a 8-6 record. Best we can do is take the BPA available this April and keep chipping away. It will be a process to totally remake a defense towards a 3-4, and adjust offensive schemes.

Alot of great QB's have never won championships and not many are going to outduel Manning. But, it is a team game and Orton is a proven winner on teams lacking in great talent. Surrounded by the right personnel, I believe he can win a championship. Delhomme took Carolina to a Super Bowl and almost won it. It was when he started trying to do too much and started turning the ball over that they faultered. I think we have some nice talent on this football team. Problem is we are weakest along the lines which is, ultimately, where championships are won and lost.

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:30 AM
That is simply not true though. Look at his first sack this past game. The middle held perfect and Orton didn't step into the perfect pocket. You know the sack. He barely was touched with one hand from the defender and went down. The announces even pointed out the clean pocket on the replay.

Orton simply does not know how to work a pocket. He also doesn't manipulate it at all. If a defender is getting through easily, a QB can move to put the blocker back between him and the defender. All good QBs do this. They also all have a clock in their heads(this is how they "feel" a rush) that tells them when they need to step up and when they need to just release the ball. That clock should work even if you are getting 2 seconds. Orton can't feel the rush at all. We also have given him a lot of time, most of the time. He just takes forever to release a lot of times.

You guys are saying everyone else needs to play perfect in order to cover Ortons weaknesses. I say a better QB would make everyone else look a lot better. These same guys were considered the best last season. Now every single one of them has dropped off and looked far worse. The pass blocking should not be that different. Zone blocking is only a rushing scheme. It is pretty easy to see what the difference is.

Orton is playing on a bad ankle and will be the rest of the season. No, he is not Mr. Nimble to start with but it is definitely affecting his play. Plus, we have zero (Simms and a rookie) behind him and he knows we need him to be on the field. Most of the time, he has had little or no time in the pocket and no lanes to step up into. It's not like one defender eventually beats his blocker - it's more like defenders coming in untouched followed by a jailbreak up the middle.

jhns
12-22-2009, 08:41 AM
Orton is playing on a bad ankle and will be the rest of the season. No, he is not Mr. Nimble to start with but it is definitely affecting his play. Plus, we have zero (Simms and a rookie) behind him and he knows we need him to be on the field. Most of the time, he has had little or no time in the pocket and no lanes to step up into. It's not like one defender eventually beats his blocker - it's more like defenders coming in untouched followed by a jailbreak up the middle.

This was a problem before he hurt his ankle. If it is just injury holding him back, McDaniels will know and can decide if he is good without that limitation.

Other than that, I do not agree with your analysis of the pass blocking. I think you are remembering a few bad plays and discrediting a ton of good play.

Pony Boy
12-22-2009, 08:49 AM
You hear it time antime again "It's a Quarterback driven league". It starts and ends with QB play. The Vikings are proof of that, a great team all around except at QB until they got Favre and now they are in the hunt.
I had that sick feeling in my gut when Stokley came up short of the endzone..... Orton was not going to get the job done.....

barryr
12-22-2009, 08:51 AM
If you really want to improve the o-line the most, dump Rick Dennison once and for all. That would make improvement right there.

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:52 AM
This was a problem before he hurt his ankle. If it is just injury holding him back, McDaniels will know and can decide if he is good without that limitation.

Other than that, I do not agree with your analysis of the pass blocking. I think you are remembering a few bad plays and discrediting a ton of good play.

I guess we will just have to disagree about the pass blocking. I think you are remembering a few bad plays on Orton's part and giving the OL too much credit. If we address the OL in the offseason, then we will have to see what transpires with not only the passing game, but the offense as a whole.

meangene
12-22-2009, 08:54 AM
If you really want to improve the o-line the most, dump Rick Dennison once and for all. That would make improvement right there.

Yep. I never understood how he got the job to start with. I remember him being a lousy special teams coach and then, suddenly, his coaching the offensive linemen.

Taco John
12-22-2009, 09:07 AM
So you'd rather start a rookie without a single minute of NFL experience over a guy with a career winning record?

And you wonder why people find you moronic.

Hmmmm... I wonder if Drew Bledsoe had a career winning record when Tom Brady was put into the mix. Not that I'm saying I want a rookie starting. I'm just wondering how valid the premise of the argument you're making actually is.

bpc
12-22-2009, 09:12 AM
Alot of great QB's have never won championships and not many are going to outduel Manning. But, it is a team game and Orton is a proven winner on teams lacking in great talent. Surrounded by the right personnel, I believe he can win a championship. Delhomme took Carolina to a Super Bowl and almost won it. It was when he started trying to do too much and started turning the ball over that they faultered. I think we have some nice talent on this football team. Problem is we are weakest along the lines which is, ultimately, where championships are won and lost.

While I agree on the importance of players in the trenches, we agree to disagree on QB play.

There are a few anomalies in history. Guys like Trend Dilfer and Brad Johnson's are the exception based on historical defenses, not the rule with their talent or ability to win clutch games.

chex
12-22-2009, 09:13 AM
Hmmmm... I wonder if Drew Bledsoe had a career winning record when Tom Brady was put into the mix. Not that I'm saying I want a rookie starting. I'm just wondering how valid the premise of the argument you're making actually is.

TJ, Brady was inserted into the lineup because of injury. If he was wowing the coaches in practice with visions of what he would eventually become, he would've been starting over Bledsoe. The way things turned out for him as far getting the chance was pure luck.

Everyone thinks a QB taken high in the first round is a cure all, but how many of those guys busted out instead of becoming even serviceable? It's no sure thing just because you take a QB top 5 you're set for the next 15 years.

Crushaholic
12-22-2009, 09:13 AM
So you'd rather start a rookie without a single minute of NFL experience over a guy with a career winning record?

And you wonder why people find you moronic.

Which is what we essentially did when we replaced Plummer with Cutler...OOPS...:)

Taco John
12-22-2009, 09:17 AM
He's yet to rally us from behind against a good team
He's yet to will this team to a win.
He's just not that guy. Period!


You're wrong. Orton has had some very nice key drives. No, he isn't lighting up the scoreboard, but he's not costing us games either.

I can remember more than a couple of times this season where I personally said, "alright Kyle, if you're that guy this is the drive you need to make it happen." Every single time that I've said that, the guy has managed to either drive the field, or show promise of doing so before the coaches screw things up with a couple of stuffed runs.

Who are you going to replace Orton with anyway? Not a rookie. This team is looking for the playoffs, and has Nolan maybe one more year if all goes well with the defensive side of the ball. McDaniels needs to win now. His best chance for doing that is probably Kyle Orton.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 09:18 AM
Hmmmm... I wonder if Drew Bledsoe had a career winning record when Tom Brady was put into the mix. Not that I'm saying I want a rookie starting. I'm just wondering how valid the premise of the argument you're making actually is.

Tom Brady was not a rookie.

Go fish.

TailgateNut
12-22-2009, 09:18 AM
I'd start a rookie over Orton any day.
The guy flat out sucks.
A winner?
Why people give this freakin' sloth too much credit when he wins?
He's yet to rally us from behind against a good team
He's yet to will this team to a win.
He's just not that guy. Period!


:spit:


Some people are just plain ignorant of the facts.

TailgateNut
12-22-2009, 09:20 AM
You hear it time antime again "It's a Quarterback driven league". It starts and ends with QB play. The Vikings are proof of that, a great team all around except at QB until they got Favre and now they are in the hunt.
I had that sick feeling in my gut when Stokley came up short of the endzone..... Orton was not going to get the job done.....


Are you talking about Orton the RB, or Orton The QB???

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-22-2009, 09:21 AM
orton got the job done. He threw a perfect pass to Scheffler, who was being tackled in the end zone, though there was no call. I could not believe it.

Then, of course, we went to the run game with our sub-par O-line.

orinjkrush
12-22-2009, 09:26 AM
didn't Saint Shanahan say the qb needs 3 years in a system to really "get" it?

bpc
12-22-2009, 10:22 AM
Yes. Cutler in his 3rd year in the league made the pro bowl and things were pointing up.

Orton in his 5th or 6th year in the league still looks wet behind the ears. We need a QB.

Popps
12-22-2009, 10:27 AM
Yes. Cutler in his 3rd year in the league made the pro bowl and things were pointing up.

Orton in his 5th or 6th year in the league still looks wet behind the ears. We need a QB.

The biggest Pro Bowl fraud in history. He threw for 4000K yards out of necessity because the team was behind every week, and he was 2nd in the league in interceptions. Meanwhile, the real winner (Rivers) sat at home on Pro Bowl day. Total joke.

But, we've all figured out who the winner is between Rivers/Cutler by now. No need to have that discussion. Actually, we've all figured out that Orton offers a team more at QB than Cutler does.

Beyond that, this very interesting and accurate thread is talking about the TEAM, not a single player.

It's an excellent comparison that won't be refuted with anything factual.

Popps
12-22-2009, 10:29 AM
Tom Brady was not a rookie.

Go fish.

Brady also got into the action because of an injury, not because of a coaches decision to bench a QB with a winning record.

bpc
12-22-2009, 10:31 AM
The biggest Pro Bowl fraud in history. He threw for 4000K yards out of necessity because the team was behind every week, and he was 2nd in the league in interceptions. Meanwhile, the real winner (Rivers) sat at home on Pro Bowl day. Total joke.

But, we've all figured out who the winner is between Rivers/Cutler by now. No need to have that discussion. Actually, we've all figured out that Orton offers a team more at QB than Cutler does.

Beyond that, this very interesting and accurate thread is talking about the TEAM, not a single player.

It's an excellent comparison that won't be refuted with anything factual.

You're but a mere fan, just speculating. Like the rest of us. Somebody voted him in. 3 pts to that equation... fans, coaches, players. Majority rules.

TailgateNut
12-22-2009, 10:36 AM
Yes. Cutler in his 3rd year in the league made the pro bowl and things were pointing up.

Orton in his 5th or 6th year in the league still looks wet behind the ears. We need a QB.


......you forgot to mention: Cutler in his fourth year looks like a high school QB playing in the NFL. He's setting records. Do they send QB's to Hawaii for the "most interceptions" in the NFL?

He's ****ing REAL wet behind the ears!

Popps
12-22-2009, 10:39 AM
You're but a mere fan, just speculating. Like the rest of us. Somebody voted him in. 3 pts to that equation... fans, coaches, players. Majority rules.

Again, at the end of the season... you wouldn't have found one voter that would have voted him in over Rivers. He got in because they vote too early, and he had yardage stats in a fantasy football era.

How many votes did he get this year.. I hadn't heard?

bpc
12-22-2009, 10:44 AM
How's his team/coaching compare to SD's?

To say Cutler had near the ammunition Phillip has had, at any point of their careers is crazy talk and just shows you've totally gone off the deepend.

For the record I think Rivers is developing into a very good/great QB. Lets not forget, not many QB's can win without the supporting cast though. Cutler never had a great cast until just last year and even that was spotty because of the lack of consistent running threat. However, going back to the point..... he made the pro bowl, with less talent around him vs Rivers. Who knows what he could have done this season with another year in the system, with Brandon, Royal, Scheffler, and the OL. Doesn't really matter but normal progression says it would have been better.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 10:45 AM
Well I thought so, but I wasn't sure.

What kind of magic is it? Black magic?

What kind of magic did JaFatass get? Hamburger magic? Pizza magic?

Well, usually the football fairy blesses them with magical powers at the combine. Then, during the draft, she sprinkles fairy dust in the eyes of all the fans and they believe the new rookies will be better than every other veteran on their team.

Unfortunately, by the time the draftee gets to training camp, the magic has worn off and they discover the reality of the Not For Long League. The football fairy is sitting in the stands yelling, "You're a ****ing bust!" Then, by week 12, they almost all have that "WTF" look on their faces.

After Sunday, I don't want to talk about Jabba the Marcus.

Popps
12-22-2009, 10:48 AM
To say Cutler had near the ammunition Phillip has had, at any point of their careers is crazy talk and just shows you've totally gone off the deepend.

:rofl:

Holy ****.

Dude, you should just close your account and stop posting. You have to be ****ing kidding.

Rivers was down there throwing to an injured Gates and slobs like Floyd, with an injured and aging Tomlinson. You're comparing that to the tools Cutler had in 07?

You can't even possibly be serious.


Chris, save your pity-praise and atta-boy Rives stuff. It's a joke. Cutler isn't even on the same planet as Rivers. He never will be. Rivers is a winner and a true Pro Bowl QB... Cutler is garbage.

You're the only one left in the universe that doesn't see that obvious fact.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 10:49 AM
Orton is playing on a bad ankle and will be the rest of the season. No, he is not Mr. Nimble to start with but it is definitely affecting his play. Plus, we have zero (Simms and a rookie) behind him and he knows we need him to be on the field. Most of the time, he has had little or no time in the pocket and no lanes to step up into. It's not like one defender eventually beats his blocker - it's more like defenders coming in untouched followed by a jailbreak up the middle.

Keep posting these reasonable takes here and you'll get banned. ;D

chex
12-22-2009, 10:49 AM
How's his team/coaching compare to SD's?

To say Cutler had near the ammunition Phillip has had, at any point of their careers is crazy talk and just shows you've totally gone off the deepend.

For the record I think Rivers is developing into a very good/great QB. Lets not forget, not many QB's can win without the supporting cast though. Cutler never had a great cast until just last year and even that was spotty because of the lack of consistent running threat. However, going back to the point..... he made the pro bowl, with less talent around him vs Rivers. Who knows what he could have done this season with another year in the system, with Brandon, Royal, Scheffler, and the OL. Doesn't really matter but normal progression says it would have been better.

So which is it, did we have a juggernaut offense with Cutler or didn't we?

You argue that Orton has all of these weapons at his disposal, then go on to say that Cutler had nowhere near the ammunition as Rivers? Hell, I just left a thread where someone has CLady and Marshall in the Hall of Fame already.

Or does the talent level of the offense increase/decrease based on the QB you're speaking of at the moment?

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 10:52 AM
Yep. I never understood how he got the job to start with. I remember him being a lousy special teams coach and then, suddenly, his coaching the offensive linemen.

I'm starting to wonder about Dennison too. I always went along with the decision because he schooled under Gibbs. Is he the right coach for a changing scheme? I'm not so sure.

Requiem
12-22-2009, 10:56 AM
Mankins and Evans are the only OG available in FA that would be a significant upgrade over we have. Either would be fantastic.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 10:57 AM
You're wrong. Orton has had some very nice key drives. No, he isn't lighting up the scoreboard, but he's not costing us games either.

I can remember more than a couple of times this season where I personally said, "alright Kyle, if you're that guy this is the drive you need to make it happen." Every single time that I've said that, the guy has managed to either drive the field, or show promise of doing so before the coaches screw things up with a couple of stuffed runs.

Who are you going to replace Orton with anyway? Not a rookie. This team is looking for the playoffs, and has Nolan maybe one more year if all goes well with the defensive side of the ball. McDaniels needs to win now. His best chance for doing that is probably Kyle Orton.

Excellent post. My feelings exactly about Orton. He's fine for where this team is at now. He's a vet. He doesn't get ruffled. He's not going to make the stupid mistake that costs you a game. He supplies some leadership in the huddle and he doesn't second guess himself. Stability. That's a nice luxury to have right now. Especially if we can get into the playoffs. Is he the long term answer? I doubt it. We probably want a higher skill sit and more mobility. But for right now, he's perfect for the role.

snowspot66
12-22-2009, 02:04 PM
That is simply not true though. Look at his first sack this past game. The middle held perfect and Orton didn't step into the perfect pocket. You know the sack. He barely was touched with one hand from the defender and went down. The announces even pointed out the clean pocket on the replay.

Orton simply does not know how to work a pocket. He also doesn't manipulate it at all. If a defender is getting through easily, a QB can move to put the blocker back between him and the defender. All good QBs do this. They also all have a clock in their heads(this is how they "feel" a rush) that tells them when they need to step up and when they need to just release the ball. That clock should work even if you are getting 2 seconds. Orton can't feel the rush at all. We also have given him a lot of time, most of the time. He just takes forever to release a lot of times.

You guys are saying everyone else needs to play perfect in order to cover Ortons weaknesses. I say a better QB would make everyone else look a lot better. These same guys were considered the best last season. Now every single one of them has dropped off and looked far worse. The pass blocking should not be that different. Zone blocking is only a rushing scheme. It is pretty easy to see what the difference is.

You have to quote one specific example to prove yourself right because there isn't enough evidence across the board to prove your point. Yeah Orton isn't mobile. But our line has severely regressed. Two of them are getting pretty old and they are way too small. The middle of the line has caused us countless problems this year. They are too small. Feel free to keep blaming Orton though. If we don't draft or sign offensive linemen then we won't be able to run next year either.

outdoor_miner
12-22-2009, 02:15 PM
You have to quote one specific example to prove yourself right because there isn't enough evidence across the board to prove your point. Yeah Orton isn't mobile. But our line has severely regressed. Two of them are getting pretty old and they are way too small. The middle of the line has caused us countless problems this year. They are too small. Feel free to keep blaming Orton though. If we don't draft or sign offensive linemen then we won't be able to run next year either.

Dude - a "rocket arm" quarterback will completely open up the run game next year. Just ask Chicago fans.

jhns
12-22-2009, 02:15 PM
You have to quote one specific example to prove yourself right because there isn't enough evidence across the board to prove your point. Yeah Orton isn't mobile. But our line has severely regressed. Two of them are getting pretty old and they are way too small. The middle of the line has caused us countless problems this year. They are too small. Feel free to keep blaming Orton though. If we don't draft or sign offensive linemen then we won't be able to run next year either.

You want me to go over every play or what? I cited an example of what I am saying that was easy for everyone to remember.

Also, I am with you that the interior o-line needs fixed. I said that in this thread. That is because they haven't blocked well for the run. They do not fit the new rushing scheme. Changing the interior line will not make Orton better in the pocket though. This line is still pass blocking pretty well. Orton just has no idea how to work a pocket. This won't change with a new line. Orton needs to fix that.

Popps
12-22-2009, 02:16 PM
You're wrong. Orton has had some very nice key drives. No, he isn't lighting up the scoreboard, but he's not costing us games either.

I can remember more than a couple of times this season where I personally said, "alright Kyle, if you're that guy this is the drive you need to make it happen." Every single time that I've said that, the guy has managed to either drive the field, or show promise of doing so before the coaches screw things up with a couple of stuffed runs.

Who are you going to replace Orton with anyway? Not a rookie. This team is looking for the playoffs, and has Nolan maybe one more year if all goes well with the defensive side of the ball. McDaniels needs to win now. His best chance for doing that is probably Kyle Orton.

Wow. That's two very good posts in two days!


Mark the dates! Is Taco turning the corner!?

Taco John
12-22-2009, 02:19 PM
This is the same stuff I've said about Orton since training camp.

oubronco
12-22-2009, 02:22 PM
:rofl:

Holy ****.

Dude, you should just close your account and stop posting. You have to be ****ing kidding.

Rivers was down there throwing to an injured Gates and slobs like Floyd, with an injured and aging Tomlinson. You're comparing that to the tools Cutler had in 07?

You can't even possibly be serious.


Chris, save your pity-praise and atta-boy Rives stuff. It's a joke. Cutler isn't even on the same planet as Rivers. He never will be. Rivers is a winner and a true Pro Bowl QB... Cutler is garbage.

You're the only one left in the universe that doesn't see that obvious fact.

I think that everyone on the Mane will be lining up to give you shyt if Cutler turns it around

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 02:30 PM
Yes. Cutler in his 3rd year in the league made the pro bowl and things were pointing up.

Orton in his 5th or 6th year in the league still looks wet behind the ears. We need a QB.

Oh, except Orton wins and Cutler loses. That's kinda important, don't you think?

Eh, probably not...

DBroncos4life
12-22-2009, 02:36 PM
Mankins and Evans are the only OG available in FA that would be a significant upgrade over we have. Either would be fantastic. Deuce Lutui, David Baas, and Chris Snee wouldn't be? Snee has been to the pro bowl. Bass has been a starter for the last two years and Gore seems to do ok with him in the line up. Deuce has lots of size something that our guards lack.

Tombstone RJ
12-22-2009, 02:37 PM
How's his team/coaching compare to SD's?

To say Cutler had near the ammunition Phillip has had, at any point of their careers is crazy talk and just shows you've totally gone off the deepend.

For the record I think Rivers is developing into a very good/great QB. Lets not forget, not many QB's can win without the supporting cast though. Cutler never had a great cast until just last year and even that was spotty because of the lack of consistent running threat. However, going back to the point..... he made the pro bowl, with less talent around him vs Rivers. Who knows what he could have done this season with another year in the system, with Brandon, Royal, Scheffler, and the OL. Doesn't really matter but normal progression says it would have been better.

Just more excuses for baby jay, nothing more.

"Cutler doesn't have the talent around him that QB xyz does!! Boohoo!!"

You sound like a broken record. Cutler didn't win with Bmarsh and Royal and Scheffler and Stokely and Graham and whatever else "no talent" players you can think of from the 2008 roster...

jhns
12-22-2009, 02:41 PM
Dude - a "rocket arm" quarterback will completely open up the run game next year. Just ask Chicago fans.

This is exactly what I was saying. Just look for yourself. Here is my first post, a response to someone that said we shouldn't get a QB because they would get killed behind this line.

Other QBs wouldn't have the same o-line issues. Our line is bad at run blocking, not pass blocking. Our QB makes our line bad at pass blocking. Look at the first sack. He had a perfect pocket and just refused to step into it. He hung out 15 yards behind the line so the tackles had no way to push the ends around him. We have breakdowns, but no more than any other line.

I do agree we need interior o-line but I do not agree with using firsts on that. I also am not sure about the QBs. If McDaniels thinks one is good, I would like to take one. I don't want them to throw away a pick just to draft a QB. We need a lot of stuff so I would just take the best player available at this point. Get an impact player in the top 10.

So, this is saying exactly what you two are going on about, right?

Oh wait, I guess you guys forgot that reading helps your responses not look so dumb.

outdoor_miner
12-22-2009, 02:52 PM
This is exactly what I was saying. Just look for yourself. Here is my first post, a response to someone that said we shouldn't get a QB because they would get killed behind this line.



So, this is saying exactly what you two are going on about, right?

Oh wait, I guess you guys forgot that reading helps your responses not look so dumb.

I wasn't even responding to you... I responded to a comment made by snowspot, and it was directed at other people who have blamed Orton for the woes of the running game (a common theme from today and throughout the season).

Popps
12-22-2009, 03:18 PM
I think that everyone on the Mane will be lining up to give you shyt if Cutler turns it around


Wow. Scary.

You mean all 4 of the losers aroun here still hanging on Jays nuts are going to chase me down when Jay learns to play the game?

PRBronco
12-22-2009, 03:40 PM
Deuce Lutui, David Baas, and Chris Snee wouldn't be? Snee has been to the pro bowl. Bass has been a starter for the last two years and Gore seems to do ok with him in the line up. Deuce has lots of size something that our guards lack.

I think Deuce and Baas are pretty brutal, but Chris Snee is excellent, didn't he sign an extension recently though?

I've been thinking about this thread though, I forgot we have so much cap space, I think it might be worth giving Mankins whatever he wants so they aren't depending so much on a rookie next year.

DBroncos4life
12-22-2009, 03:50 PM
I think Deuce and Baas are pretty brutal, but Chris Snee is excellent, didn't he sign an extension recently though?

I've been thinking about this thread though, I forgot we have so much cap space, I think it might be worth giving Mankins whatever he wants so they aren't depending so much on a rookie next year.

Snee did, I just looked it up. For some reason he was listed on two sites as a FA

Mr
12-22-2009, 04:11 PM
I haven't been in here in The Mane in years, after that debacle on Sunday I started thinking, and pulling out hair, and thinking more. Once I started to see parts of my head I haven't seen since Griese took his first snap, I remembered coming here for peace of mind after similar mind blowing losses, knowing that others are feeling my pain.

So I log in and this thread is the very first thing I read...
And it makes sense.
And I know already, that Ive come to the right place.
You have no idea the relief I'm feeling right now.
I'm actually looking foreword to next week.
I must be nuckin futz.

Rohirrim
12-22-2009, 04:17 PM
I haven't been in here in The Mane in years, after that debacle on Sunday I started thinking, and pulling out hair, and thinking more. Once I started to see parts of my head I haven't seen since Griese took his first snap, I remembered coming here for peace of mind after similar mind blowing losses, knowing that others are feeling my pain.

So I log in and this thread is the very first thing I read...
And it makes sense.
And I know already, that Ive come to the right place.
You have no idea the relief I'm feeling right now.
I'm actually looking foreword to next week.
I must be nuckin futz.

Abandon hope, all who enter here. ;D

cabronco
12-22-2009, 04:48 PM
Yeah thats great, the interior is weak so keep running the ball up the middle. Coaching 101 for McDummies.

Oh snap. Just use Moreno the human battering ram..

meangene
12-22-2009, 04:55 PM
I think Deuce and Baas are pretty brutal, but Chris Snee is excellent, didn't he sign an extension recently though?

I've been thinking about this thread though, I forgot we have so much cap space, I think it might be worth giving Mankins whatever he wants so they aren't depending so much on a rookie next year.

One of the best things we did this offseason was take the hit this year on alot of dead money and overpaid players to put us in a good position financially for the next few years. And, we did that while still making some excellent bargain free agent signings. Much as I am still pissed about the Raiders loss, this team is very much heading in the right direction long term. If we make good decisions on the use of that money (with guys like Mankins) now that the staff has had a chance to integrate their system and see exactly what we have and don't have in terms of talent, we should be building a consistent playoff team.

Popps
12-22-2009, 06:04 PM
I haven't been in here in The Mane in years, after that debacle on Sunday I started thinking, and pulling out hair, and thinking more. Once I started to see parts of my head I haven't seen since Griese took his first snap, I remembered coming here for peace of mind after similar mind blowing losses, knowing that others are feeling my pain.

So I log in and this thread is the very first thing I read...
And it makes sense.
And I know already, that Ive come to the right place.
You have no idea the relief I'm feeling right now.
I'm actually looking foreword to next week.
I must be nuckin futz.

If you don't have hope, you're not a fan.

I'm with you... Sunday was as painful as it gets. But, we're 5 days away from glory, or further disaster.

Either way, this franchise is doing things right. We weren't going to win the SB this year. Finishing around .500 and making progress on defense like we have is extremely encouraging. A couple of key O-line moves, and maybe one more impact defensive player, and this team could grow into a major threat... as soon as next season.

Mr
12-22-2009, 06:45 PM
If you don't have hope, you're not a fan.

I'm with you... Sunday was as painful as it gets. But, we're 5 days away from glory, or further disaster.

Either way, this franchise is doing things right. We weren't going to win the SB this year. Finishing around .500 and making progress on defense like we have is extremely encouraging. A couple of key O-line moves, and maybe one more impact defensive player, and this team could grow into a major threat... as soon as next season.

After the off season, I never DREAMED of finishing .500
I see things looking up, and it IS encouraging.

ZONA
12-22-2009, 10:48 PM
Getting off Orton and back to the point of the thread, I would definitely look to find a larger Center in the later rounds. I think Olsen could do just fine as the LG.

watermock
12-23-2009, 01:19 AM
Umm, we traded Mt Cody for a midget, remember? Or maybe McCoy?

It's funny how we could take the same line with 7 different backs and average better YPC.

ow we have a midget 1st that has been replaced by not one but 2 free agents and gave up a TD against Jabba the Hutt.

Mr.Meanie
12-23-2009, 07:52 AM
One of the best things we did this offseason was take the hit this year on alot of dead money and overpaid players to put us in a good position financially for the next few years. And, we did that while still making some excellent bargain free agent signings. Much as I am still pissed about the Raiders loss, this team is very much heading in the right direction long term. If we make good decisions on the use of that money (with guys like Mankins) now that the staff has had a chance to integrate their system and see exactly what we have and don't have in terms of talent, we should be building a consistent playoff team.

Exactly.