Kill the Bill?

[Rohirrim]

Howard Dean says, yes, kill it. As it stands now, the Lieberman remnant of health care reform does nothing to control costs but fines those who don't buy in. In other words, as Lieberman (the Senator from Aetna) ensured, this bill is a gravy train for the insurance companies and a massive failure for the uninsured. Labor is holding meetings on whether to come out against it as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/kill-the-bill-some-progre_n_392436.html

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something for the rest of America.

[Garcia Bronco]

The democrats do not need one republican vote to pass this bill.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Howard Dean says, yes, kill it. As it stands now, the Lieberman remnant of health care reform does nothing to control costs but fines those who don't buy in. In other words, as Lieberman (the Senator from Aetna) ensured, this bill is a gravy train for the insurance companies and a massive failure for the uninsured. Labor is holding meetings on whether to come out against it as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/kill-the-bill-some-progre_n_392436.html

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something for the rest of America.

And suffer the consequences of election day. Yup, just the way the democratic process is supposed to work. See, the problem isn't 'Lieberman and the Republicans', it's the moderate Dems whose constituents are telling them to oppose this and likely every bill that comes through with a public option and/or Medicare cuts. Pointing the finger at Repubs and Lieberman is a ruse designed to cover up the in-fighting of Dems, many of whom are opposed to a Dean-approved bill.

Oh, and here's another newsflash--Lieberman and Repubs are not the only 'rich' ones, but there are many on the Democratic side of the aisle as well who don't want this bill, let alone a government option with such a massive structural change.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Not to mention a President that will flip flop like a pancake on Boxing Day. He's another barrier to Dean-like reform, as he rashly enters into agreements and then reneges when the heat gets turned up on him:

President Obama writes a new health reform prescription

By Dana Milbank
Wednesday, December 16, 2009; A02



On the campaign trail, Barack Obama vowed to take on the drug industry by allowing Americans to import cheaper prescription medicine. "We'll tell the pharmaceutical companies 'thanks, but no, thanks' for the overpriced drugs -- drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada," he said back then.

On Tuesday, the matter came to the Senate floor -- and President Obama forgot the "no, thanks" part. Siding with the pharmaceutical lobby, the administration successfully fought against the very idea Obama had championed.

"It's got to be a little awkward," said Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.).

It's even more awkward for millions of Americans who are forced to pay up to 10 times the prices Canadians and Europeans pay for identical medication, often produced in the same facilities by the same manufacturers, simply because the U.S. government refuses to rein in drug prices.

Those favoring cheaper prescriptions amassed an impressive ideological coalition, from socialist Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) to conservative Sen. David Vitter (R-La.). But they were no match for industry-friendly senators backed by the administration, who on Tuesday night easily voted down "reimportation," as it is called.

No surprise here: Lawmakers, and the White House, are addicted to drug money. The industry has pumped upwards of $130 million into federal elections over the past decade and is now among the top 10 donors, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. At the same time, the White House needed the industry to spend its millions of dollars in advertising money on support of the health-care legislation, not against it.

The drug-money addiction could explain why the administration struck a sweetheart deal with the industry, which offered to give up $80 billion in revenue in exchange for an understanding that the government would not push for deeper concessions. The White House was determined not to go back on the deal -- even though the industry had demonstrated bad faith by raising prescription prices nearly 10 percent this year. So when Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-N.D.) brought his reimportation proposal to the floor, the administration pushed back with a letter from Food and Drug Administration chief Margaret Hamburg warning of "significant safety concerns."

One after the other, the drug industry's friends from pharmaceutical-manufacturing states New Jersey, Delaware and North Carolina went to the floor Tuesday to cite the FDA letter.

Sen. Robert Menendez (D-Bristol-Myers Squibb) warned that "you may have a heart attack" because of counterfeit medicine from abroad.

"This is a matter of life or death," agreed Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-Merck).

Carper (D-AstraZeneca) cited "remaining safety and soundness and health concerns," while Sen. Kay Hagan (D-GlaxoSmithKline) voiced "serious doubts that we can adequately ensure the safety of the drug supply."

These arguments don't hold up well, considering that 40 percent of the active ingredients in American prescription drugs come from India and China, and that the latter slipped tainted heparin past the FDA. But fright was about the best argument opponents could use to defeat a popular proposal that would save the federal government $19 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Consumers would save many times that.

That's why the drug industry has been fighting for a decade against congressional efforts to allow reimportation. Obama co-sponsored one such proposal in the Senate. He also said during his presidential campaign that he wanted to "let Medicare negotiate for lower prices" for drugs. White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, when he was in Congress, also championed reimportation. Yet now, after their successful battle against it, the two are expected to fight off a similar legislative effort to allow Medicare to negotiate for lower drug prices.

Even before the vote came, it had become clear that President Obama's aides had the votes to kill the proposal Senator Obama once co-sponsored. This, said Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), "contributes to the enormous cynicism on the part of the American people about the way we do business here." To Dorgan, he pledged: "I will be by his side as we go back and back and back again on this issue until justice and fairness is done and we defeat the special interests of the pharmaceutical industry which have taken over the White House and will take over this vote."

Dorgan, on the verge of losing another reimportation battle, raised his voice as he pleaded with colleagues. "The pharmaceutical industry has a lot of clout. I know that," he said. "I hope the American people have the ability to expect some clout on their behalf in the chamber of the United States Senate."

Tuesday's final clout tally wasn't even close. The drug companies won with nine votes to spare.

[Rohirrim]

And suffer the consequences of election day. Yup, just the way the democratic process is supposed to work. See, the problem isn't 'Lieberman and the Republicans', it's the moderate Dems whose constituents are telling them to oppose this and likely every bill that comes through with a public option and/or Medicare cuts. Pointing the finger at Repubs and Lieberman is a ruse designed to cover up the in-fighting of Dems, many of whom are opposed to a Dean-approved bill.

Oh, and here's another newsflash--Lieberman and Repubs are not the only 'rich' ones, but there are many on the Democratic side of the aisle as well who don't want this bill, let alone a government option with such a massive structural change.

If by "constituents" you mean the insurance industry, I guess you have a point.

[cutthemdown]

So let's get this all sorted out.

1- Obama backtracked, made backroom deal with big pharmacy
2- No public option to drive down prices
3- No limits on premiums
4- Everyone has to go purchase insurance

so am I wrong on any of that? Because how could that be reform? Hell it's easy to just tell everyone to go buy insurance, problem solved!!!! Wow that's some reform. No wonder real liberals are crying foul.

What a joke this bill is. It's to the point they just want to pass anything to claim victory.

[rastaman]

The democrats do not need one republican vote to pass this bill.

The Democrat party has been infiltrated by Dem-Repubs who won't vote with them.

Looks like Democratic voters need to replace all those Dem-Repubs with REAL Democrats!!!! If they want the will of the people's work done.

[cutthemdown]

The Democrat party has been infiltrated by Dem-Repubs who won't vote with them.

Looks like Democratic voters need to replace all those Dem-Repubs with REAL Democrats!!!! If they want the will of the people's work done.

It won't happen. The DNC took a strategy of supporting moderate/conservative dems in historically Republican areas. By doing so they gained a majority, but it's not a strong majority because they don't agree on everything.

The result won't be more liberal democrats in those areas. The result will be the republicans winning back those seats.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It won't happen. The DNC took a strategy of supporting moderate/conservative dems in historically Republican areas. By doing so they gained a majority, but it's not a strong majority because they don't agree on everything.

The result won't be more liberal democrats in those areas. The result will be the republicans winning back those seats.

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

I hope you're not suggesting that those "moderate/conservative dems in historically Republican areas" wouldn't have won anyway, given the alternative.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Howard Dean says, yes, kill it. As it stands now, the Lieberman remnant of health care reform does nothing to control costs but fines those who don't buy in. In other words, as Lieberman (the Senator from Aetna) ensured, this bill is a gravy train for the insurance companies and a massive failure for the uninsured. Labor is holding meetings on whether to come out against it as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/kill-the-bill-some-progre_n_392436.html

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something for the rest of America.

Co-sign.

http://www.bartcop.com/cons-in-con-gress.jpg
http://www.bartcop.com/kissyface-no-morals.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/gop-medicare4.gif
</center>

[rastaman]

so let's get this all sorted out.

1- obama backtracked, made backroom deal with big pharmacy

Yep! Big corporate pharma are so powerful and influential....they can destroy a presidency should that sitting president not play ball. Looks like those reagan tax cuts for corporations over the last 28 years has allowed big pharma to keep so much wealth....they have become powerful enough to blackmail a sitting president!!

2- no public option to drive down prices

Again, the democratic voters have allowed 4 conservative dem senators and one independent senator to kill the public option. The dem. Voters have got to get rid of 5 senators w/i their party that stole x-mass. But this doesn't say the "door has been left open" for the barbarian republicans to return to power anytime soon!

3- no limits on premiums

Again, we are talking here how powerful corporations have become, the amount of money in politics and how much congress must sell their souls inorder to get millions of dollars from these corporations to run for re-election.

4- everyone has to go purchase insurance.

There's no free lunches out there. Point is can price insurance to where everyone can afford it? Can't use the emergency rooms b/c it ends up increasing the insurance premiums for everyone.

so am i wrong on any of that? Because how could that be reform? Hell it's easy to just tell everyone to go buy insurance, problem solved!!!! Wow that's some reform. No wonder real liberals are crying foul.

Nope you're not wrong! Real liberals had better find a way to come together in solidarity to kick out of congress dino's and recruit, finance and elect real liberals to congress, especially in the senate!

what a joke this bill is. It's to the point they just want to pass anything to claim victory.

Kill the bill and start over!!

[rastaman]

It won't happen. The DNC took a strategy of supporting moderate/conservative dems in historically Republican areas. By doing so they gained a majority, but it's not a strong majority because they don't agree on everything.

The result won't be more liberal democrats in those areas. The result will be the republicans winning back those seats.

And the vicious cycle continues. The only question is which of the two parties demand 24 hour BJ's from their voters and which parties enjoy bung hole raping their voters.

[Rohirrim]

What people have to wake up to is that Lieberman is working for Obama. They are hand in glove on this. As many on the Left are starting to wake up to, this is the bill that Obama wanted in the first place. Remember, when Obama came to the Senate, his mentor was Lieberman. This whole thing has been orchestrated to come out just like it has - a gravy train for the insurance industry. 68% of Americans wanted the Medicare buy in. Tough ****, says their representative government. Ha!

[Garcia Bronco]

The Democrat party has been infiltrated by Dem-Repubs who won't vote with them.

Looks like Democratic voters need to replace all those Dem-Repubs with REAL Democrats!!!! If they want the will of the people's work done.

LOL....infiltrated?...LMAO....

It's called compromise. It's what our nation was founded on among other things.

[rastaman]

And suffer the consequences of election day. Yup, just the way the democratic process is supposed to work. See, the problem isn't 'Lieberman and the Republicans', it's the moderate Dems whose constituents are telling them to oppose this and likely every bill that comes through with a public option and/or Medicare cuts. Pointing the finger at Repubs and Lieberman is a ruse designed to cover up the in-fighting of Dems, many of whom are opposed to a Dean-approved bill.

Oh, and here's another newsflash--Lieberman and Repubs are not the only 'rich' ones, but there are many on the Democratic side of the aisle as well who don't want this bill, let alone a government option with such a massive structural change.

Makes ya wonder which CONGRESSIONAL PIMPS do the voters want to vote for!

[rastaman]

LOL....infiltrated?...LMAO....

It's called compromise. It's what our nation was founded on among other things.

Nope its called a dumbed down voter electorate! Who do not understand how Congress operates b/c back in the 80's Civics was no longer a required elective!

And the elective officials/incumbents realized long ago they only need the votes of the voter to make an election look democratic, however, these incumbents know what keeps them getting re-elected is the Corporate Money!!!

Take the money need to get elected and re-elected and you cut the COMPROMISE!!!!

[Garcia Bronco]

Nope its called a dumbed down voter electorate! Who do not understand how Congress operates b/c back in the 80's Civics was no longer a required elective!

And the elective officials/incumbents realized long ago they only need the votes of the voter to make an election look democratic, however, these incumbents know what keeps them getting re-elected is the Corporate Money!!!

Take the money need to get elected and re-elected and you cut the COMPROMISE!!!!

I had to take a Civics course in 1988.

Compromise is very much a part...still to this day...in our federal legislature. The problem is the Feds have their nose too often where it doesn't belong.

[Bronx33]

Not to mention a President that will flip flop like a pancake on Boxing Day. He's another barrier to Dean-like reform, as he rashly enters into agreements and then reneges when the heat gets turned up on him:


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1:45

[Smiling Assassin27]

And you guys are whining about the Republicans and Lieberman? The unions are meeting today to decide if they should officially oppose this bill! It's about time you folks pin responsibility for this debacle to its rightful owners:

1. Obama. No leadership, no communication, and no backbone. This is already well known and well covered. He's a failure and has once again voted 'present' on this issue.

2. Reid and Pelosi. Ramrodding stuff, locking dissenters out of meetins, pulling late night amendment switches, and not providing transparency has resulted in lack of trust and confidence in rank and file Dems. Hell, just today, we got an amendment on the floor for a public option, after the Senate has already made it clear that a public option cannot be part of the final bill. Are these Dems stupid or just didn't get the memo?

3. Democratic infighting. This party is splintering with every passing day, like rats fighting each other for a plank in the ocean after the boat they got fat on sank. There is no solidarity in the Dem ranks, and that is why this reform cannot get done. Weiner's saying essentially what Roh has said--steamroll ths through, to hell with the congressional seats lost because of it. Libs are pissed at moderates, libs are pissed at the president, the president is pissed at moderates, and moderates are not willing to commit political suicide for a president and liberal leaders they do not admire or trust. Getcha popcorn ready.

Labor Holds Emergency Meetings To Discuss Senate Bill, May Formally Oppose
digg Huffpost - Labor Holds Emergency Meetings To Discuss Senate Bill, May Formally Oppose stumble reddit del.ico.us
Posted: 12-16-09 10:46 AM


Two of the country's largest labor groups, the SEIU and the AFL-CIO, are each holding emergency executive meetings today to discuss whether they should support the latest round of health care compromises made by Senate Democrats.

Though there's no official word yet, early indications based on talks with various officials are that the groups will either formally oppose the legislation or, less dramatically, just not fight very hard to ensure its passage.

Labor leaders are fuming at the concessions that Democratic leadership made in the last few days to win the support of the caucus's most conservative members, notably Sen. Joseph Lieberman (I-Conn.). A bill that already included one highly objectionable provision (a tax on so-called Cadillac insurance plans) was stripped of a provision beloved by labor: a public alternative to private insurance coverage. Frustration boiled over even further after the leadership succumbed to Lieberman's demand to jettison even the compromise to the public option -- a proposal to expand Medicare to those as young as 55.

Together, the changes have spurred emotional internal debates about the approach labor should take to the Senate bill. Dennis Rivera, the Health Care Chair at the SEIU, was slated to appear at a Capitol Hill press conference on Wednesday to push for senators not to filibuster reform. He pulled out from the event, which was sponsored by the pro-reform group Families USA, because of uncertainty about the union's position.

"We just couldn't do it," said an SEIU official. "We haven't even seen the manager's amendment... At this point, we have to make the final decision about how to proceed. There is an emergency meeting tonight to figure that out."

The AFL-CIO, likewise, is hosting an executive council meeting to discuss the legislation. Richard Trumka, the president of the union conglomerate, has been one of the foremost champions of a public plan. And on Tuesday, one of his close allies, Leo Gerard, the president United Steelworkers Union, hinted that opposition to the bill is in the offing.

"I believe that the House [of Representatives] has got a good bill," Gerard told MSNBC's Ed Schultz. "Hopefully it is going to have to go to committee, we're going to fight like crazy to make sure that we get a good bill. I'm not prepared to give up. I want to fight and get a good bill out of this. The American people deserve this and President Obama, whose values are right, he deserves this."

Labor's stance could have big ramifications. Progressive Senate Democrats held their noses as the legislation was watered down at the behest of Lieberman and others. Off the Hill, however, former Democratic National Committee chair Howard Dean called for the current Senate proposal to be "killed" -- and others echoed his concerns.

The labor community has already poured massive resources into the health care debate. Now there is a growing concern that the money and time may have not been well spent. As one high-ranking labor official emailed the Huffington Post:

"What is really frustrating folks here is that it's impossible to make and implement plans to pressure senators when the White House and Reid keep undermining the efforts no one from the outside can put any credible pressure on Senators because they know the White House will back that Senator up whatever they do. If the White House is going to cave to a Senator who spent the entire election campaigning with McCain and calling Obama a traitor how are we supposed to have any leverage over anyone?

"If Lieberman -- who has done so many horrible things directly to Obama -- can get away with this on Obama's signature issue it makes it infinitely harder for us to pressure senators, on issues in the future, because there is no fear of retribution or coercion from the White House. They only pressure progressives, not anyone in the middle."

[Smiling Assassin27]

Makes ya wonder which CONGRESSIONAL PIMPS do the voters want to vote for!

a pimp is a pimp and a whore is a whore, whether they have a D, R, or I after their name. it makes for bad legislation and good daytime TV, but if you're looking for integrity in the hallowed halls of congress, bring a microscope.

[Broncojef]

And you guys are whining about the Republicans and Lieberman? The unions are meeting today to decide if they should officially oppose this bill! It's about time you folks pin responsibility for this debacle to its rightful owners:

1. Obama. No leadership, no communication, and no backbone. This is already well known and well covered. He's a failure and has once again voted 'present' on this issue.

2. Reid and Pelosi. Ramrodding stuff, locking dissenters out of meetins, pulling late night amendment switches, and not providing transparency has resulted in lack of trust and confidence in rank and file Dems. Hell, just today, we got an amendment on the floor for a public option, after the Senate has already made it clear that a public option cannot be part of the final bill. Are these Dems stupid or just didn't get the memo?

3. Democratic infighting. This party is splintering with every passing day, like rats fighting each other for a plank in the ocean after the boat they got fat on sank. There is no solidarity in the Dem ranks, and that is why this reform cannot get done. Weiner's saying essentially what Roh has said--steamroll ths through, to hell with the congressional seats lost because of it. Libs are pissed at moderates, libs are pissed at the president, the president is pissed at moderates, and moderates are not willing to commit political suicide for a president and liberal leaders they do not admire or trust. Getcha popcorn ready.

Good hope they continue to wage civil war against one another until we can vote them out. You better pass it while you can libs once the country gets a chance to can your ass you won't be holding a majority. 2010 will be a bloodbath for the far left quacks, Americans have seen their crap and are tired of it. ^5

[cutthemdown]

And the vicious cycle continues. The only question is which of the two parties demand 24 hour BJ's from their voters and which parties enjoy bung hole raping their voters.

and the answer is...........Both parties are equally adept at securing power, money, and screwing the voters. I guess maybe I can see your point that dems more for the little guy. If they are though it's not by much. In the end they use things like abortion this, or terrorist going to jihad your sons and daughters, to polarize us away from the core issues.

Even global warming IMO a big cluster**** they will use to screw us. It's probably true Earth is warming. It's probably not true we can reverse it. but whatever they will do what they can to make money of it.

I'm no expert rasta, but what about the health bill compromise currently being put forth do you like? I sort of agree with every American should have to purchase major medical. I agree with that. You should protect yourself against long illness, catastrophic accident etc.

But if the bill only makes buying insurance mandatory, does that really reform how it all works? Or really change anything? Americans already broke, the ones without insurance probably can't afford the fine for not having it either.

Just seems like a lame bill to me. Either get the public option in the thing or forget about it.

[Rohirrim]

The big problem we have now is that a minority can determine what passes and what doesn't. All the polls say that Americans were very favorable toward expanding Medicare to those from 55 to 64. A majority of the Senate were ready to vote for it. But basically, four people in the Senate can block it and kill it. That's ludicrous. The insurance industry only has to buy off those four Senators. And they have.

[barryr]

Bozos continue to show their inability to think. It's conservative democrats who are the "problem" with this idiotic healthcare plan since no republicans are needed to get it passed.

Plus, the will of the people says they don't want this bill or anything that has been put out to the public. More people are against these plans than for it, so some need to stop the BS already. If the majority really wanted it, it would have been passed by now, but politicians, especially on the democrat side are getting that message from their voters, so not too eager to say yes.

Again, if they just helped those who wanted insurance to get it, allowed insurances to compete from state to state, and no pre-existing injury, and left those alone who are happy with their insurance, then there wouldn't be much problem.

But since that makes too mach sense, then one easily sees this isn't about healthcare or insurance either. It's all about power and telling others what they have to do and this is what liberals have such a bad habit of doing, especially since they rarely practice what they preach.

[Bronx33]

Kill this disaster and start over.

[rastaman]

Good hope they continue to wage civil war against one another until we can vote them out. You better pass it while you can libs once the country gets a chance to can your ass you won't be holding a majority. 2010 will be a bloodbath for the far left quacks, Americans have seen their crap and are tired of it. ^5

Great I can't wait for the Republican'ts and their merry bands of Corporate greedy thieves to regain power! Afterall, since Ronnie RayGun came to power...he taught us DEBT and DEFICITS don't matter!!! Only TAX CUTS and the FREE MARKETS ONLY MATTER! Lets allow the GOP to return to power so they can take another "Contract Out" ON AMERICA......like GOP Newt Gingrich was able to do back in the 90's.

Can't wait to have the party back in power who spend like drunken sailors, who want to continue to make the Filthy Rich even richer, who use our young men and women in the armed services to go give thier lives, brains, and limbs to make trans global companies richer..etc!

Why waste any time bringing the Rethuglicans party back into power (McCain & Pain-Land should have been elected anyway----RIGHT).....maybe this time the GOP can get it right and usher the U.S. and the entire world back into the 2nd Republican Caused Great Depression!

The Corporate owned Congress Is The Problem......The Republican Indorsed-Funded and Supported Corporations, Banks, The Free Markets, The Reagan Tax Cuts, The Military Industrilized Complex, Drug Companies, Private Health Insurers, Wall Street, and the Wealthiest 2% THAT ARE THE FREAKIN PROBLEM!

Liberals and Conservatives in the income brackets btwn minimum wage and 150K can take their country back! But unfortunately we are too busy fighting among ourselves! While the Congress, the WH, Corporations, Banks, The Free Markets, The Reagan Tax Cuts, The Military Industrilized Complex, Drug Companies, Private Health Insurers, Wall Street, and the Wealthiest 2%; laugh and shake their heads at how stupid and gullible the avg voter are in this country.

Isn't that Right..............Broncojef! See Ya At the next Party.

[spdirty]

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something to the rest of America.

Trying to get a more Ro approved more pure bill, no way in hell they would get the 60 votes necessary to pass it. And one thing we can agree on, Lieberman is a ****ing douche. He wants this crap but first he needs to get his 2 pounds of flesh out of the dems. Its doing nothing more than playing a ****ing game with 300 million peoples lives.

But man I hope thats what your boys do.:pray:

[spdirty]

Great I can't wait for the Republican'ts and their merry bands of Corporate greedy thieves to regain power! Afterall, since Ronnie RayGun came to power...he taught us DEBT and DEFICITS don't matter!!!

And your people are doing a bang up job reducing our DEBT and DEFICITS right?

[Garcia Bronco]

Again...this bill does not require one republican vote. Take their stupid party out of your mouth.

[bpc]

Howard Dean says, yes, kill it. As it stands now, the Lieberman remnant of health care reform does nothing to control costs but fines those who don't buy in. In other words, as Lieberman (the Senator from Aetna) ensured, this bill is a gravy train for the insurance companies and a massive failure for the uninsured. Labor is holding meetings on whether to come out against it as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/kill-the-bill-some-progre_n_392436.html

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something for the rest of America.

Why can't America do something for itself? Why must we enslave the country to more taxes and sacrificed government money so we can help those not willing to help themselves?

We're turning this country into a place of government handouts instead of cultivating a culture where you have to work to succeed in life, and achieve things.

[Rohirrim]

Why can't America do something for itself? Why must we enslave the country to more taxes and sacrificed government money so we can help those not willing to help themselves?

We're turning this country into a place of government handouts instead of cultivating a culture where you have to work to succeed in life, and achieve things.

You are so mind-numbingly wrong on this I can't bother to straighten you out. There's not enough band-width. I work in this exact field, helping the uninsured in a hospital. 95% of the people I see have been working hard their whole lives and are getting massively ****ed by the bs system we have in this country. You should just STFU when you don't know what you're talking about. The mofo running United Health Care makes $51,000 PER HOUR! Wake the **** up.

[Rohirrim]

Keith Olberman had a great idea the other night: If they pass the health care bill, Americans should boycott the insurance companies. Everybody stop paying in. Let the government try to collect their fines. The people of this country have never understood the power they have, but the truth is, they hold all the cards. That's the last thing the oligarchs want us to realize. As long as our minds stay locked in the lord/serf paradigm we'll be treated like farm animals. If everybody in America cancelled their insurance and refused to pay Congress would write an excellent health care bill in about a week. And the Republicans would sign on too.

[Bronx33]

Keith Olberman had a great idea the other night: If they pass the health care bill, Americans should boycott the insurance companies. Everybody stop paying in. Let the government try to collect their fines. The people of this country have never understood the power they have, but the truth is, they hold all the cards. That's the last thing the oligarchs want us to realize. As long as our minds stay locked in the lord/serf paradigm we'll be treated like farm animals. If everybody in America cancelled their insurance and refused to pay Congress would write an excellent health care bill in about a week. And the Republicans would sign on too.


I quit reading after this....

[Garcia Bronco]

Keith Olberman had a great idea the other night: If they pass the health care bill, Americans should boycott the insurance companies. Everybody stop paying in. Let the government try to collect their fines. The people of this country have never understood the power they have, but the truth is, they hold all the cards. That's the last thing the oligarchs want us to realize. As long as our minds stay locked in the lord/serf paradigm we'll be treated like farm animals. If everybody in America cancelled their insurance and refused to pay Congress would write an excellent health care bill in about a week. And the Republicans would sign on too.

This.

Just take a look at the Birmingham Bus Boycotts. Those ****ers passed a law saying people HAD to ride the bus.

[rastaman]

And your people are doing a bang up job reducing our DEBT and DEFICITS right?

OUR! Are you referring to the Debt and Deficts that Reagan and Bush I ran up or are you talking about the Debt and Deficits that Bush II ran up?

Which massive Republican Debt and Deficits incurred over the last 29 years are you referring to?

[rastaman]

It won't happen. The DNC took a strategy of supporting moderate/conservative dems in historically Republican areas. By doing so they gained a majority, but it's not a strong majority because they don't agree on everything.

Moderate/conservative Dems were elected due to low voter turn out in those areas. So again, those voters in those areas must get involved to recruit candidates that are pro healthcare for single-payer or public choice.

The result won't be more liberal democrats in those areas. The result will be the republicans winning back those seats.

Again, Republicans only win back those seats if the voters don't come out in mass to vote out the corporate-conservative Dems.

[cutthemdown]

Again, Republicans only win back those seats if the voters don't come out in mass to vote out the corporate-conservative Dems.

My point is the areas you want more liberal democrats, to replace conservative ones like Ben Nelson in Nebraska just won't go more liberal.

If the Dems that are conservative get backlashed by Obama, Ried, Pelosi etc it weakens them for re-election. The result isn't that a liberal win, it would be a moderate republican like Snow more then likely.

Also IMO voter turnout for repubs probably be really high this time around. Just a guess.

[rastaman]

My point is the areas you want more liberal democrats, to replace conservative ones like Ben Nelson in Nebraska just won't go more liberal.

If the Dems that are conservative get backlashed by Obama, Ried, Pelosi etc it weakens them for re-election. The result isn't that a liberal win, it would be a moderate republican like Snow more then likely.

Also IMO voter turnout for repubs probably be really high this time around. Just a guess.

Point well taken. Its obvious to us progressive voters out there it is not enough to elect a progressive president, Liberals did not do a good job to elect more liberals and progressives in congress as well.

I don't think bipartisanship is the way forward. This is a war Libs and progressives find themselves in with conservatives. Dems-Libs need to elect more Graysons and more Kuciniches.

Never mind. I'm dreaming.

[ghwk]

Bozos continue to show their inability to think. It's conservative democrats who are the "problem" with this idiotic healthcare plan since no republicans are needed to get it passed.

Plus, the will of the people says they don't want this bill or anything that has been put out to the public. More people are against these plans than for it, so some need to stop the BS already. If the majority really wanted it, it would have been passed by now, but politicians, especially on the democrat side are getting that message from their voters, so not too eager to say yes.

Again, if they just helped those who wanted insurance to get it, allowed insurances to compete from state to state, and no pre-existing injury, and left those alone who are happy with their insurance, then there wouldn't be much problem.

But since that makes too mach sense, then one easily sees this isn't about healthcare or insurance either. It's all about power and telling others what they have to do and this is what liberals have such a bad habit of doing, especially since they rarely practice what they preach.

Jeezus H. Christmas, just how far up your butt is your head??? Do you have any memory of the Bush years at all? Heellooo McFly.. :welcome:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The mofo running United Health Care makes $51,000 PER HOUR! Wake the **** up.

And he is EXACTLY who the rightards, the GOP, and the DINOs are protecting.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

3. Democratic infighting...

That should be nothing new to anyone who follows politics.

Dems have seldom marched in lockstep like the GOP.

[JJJ]

Howard Dean says, yes, kill it. As it stands now, the Lieberman remnant of health care reform does nothing to control costs but fines those who don't buy in. In other words, as Lieberman (the Senator from Aetna) ensured, this bill is a gravy train for the insurance companies and a massive failure for the uninsured. Labor is holding meetings on whether to come out against it as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/kill-the-bill-some-progre_n_392436.html

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something for the rest of America.

Fully agree. Bring it on.

Round 1 you got your nose bloodied. Spit in the bucket and come out again.

Support for medical reform is massively waning.

Round 2 this shame will be knocked out cold and sit next to Hillary's debacle in the history books.

[Rohirrim]

Fully agree. Bring it on.

Round 1 you got your nose bloodied. Spit in the bucket and come out again.

Support for medical reform is massively waning.

Round 2 this shame will be knocked out cold and sit next to Hillary's debacle in the history books.

I don't know what polls you are reading (Faux Noise?) but you're wrong. Part of the pressure on the crooks in Washington are the polls of Americans who want a public option and expanded Medicare. Sure, the majority are opposed to the current bill, and if all you listen to is Fox then you think Americans are opposed to health care insurance reform in toto. But you don't have all the info:

Meanwhile, if the public option and Medicare buy-in are added, 58 percent of people support the idea. The number of Republican supporters drops to 22 percent, but independent support rises to 57 percent and Democratic support to a whopping 88 percent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/18/poll-health-care-reform-w_n_396990.html

Americans are fed up with the watered down crap the Senate is coming up with. It looks to me like the insurance industry will simply raise their rates to make up for whatever the Senate bill does. I don't hear of any price or cost controls. Sounds to me like the Senate is sending the insurance industry 30 million new customers and forcing them to buy at whatever prices the industry wants to set.

Trust me, after the insurance industry continues raping the American public for another few years, we are going to get some "real" reform, and even rightards will be begging for it. Right now we're averaging about 8% of the average income toward health care. If things continue as they are going, it will be 17% pretty soon. Won't that be nice? Keep in mind, the Canadians pay half of what we pay and everybody is covered for life. No bankruptcies. No destruction of your retirement years. Go ahead and drink the koolaid. Meanwhile, the health industry ceos love that $51,000 per hour we are putting in their pockets. :~ohyah!:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Go ahead and drink the koolaid. Meanwhile, the health industry ceos love that $51,000 per hour we are putting in their pockets. :~ohyah!:

Amazing how hard the right-wing mouth breathers fight to "save the CEOs," isn't it?

[peacepipe]

this is part of what I posted on another thread but thought it also applied to this one.


This is only the 1st step,medicare & social security were very weak when they were first passed. Through the adding of amendments year after year medicare became better & stronger. We may have only gotten a half loaf today but we'll eventually get the whole loaf as this moves along over the years.


I support opening up medicare to all,but unfortunately with the likes of Nelson,landreiu,lincoln & lieberman we couldn't acheive that. There are some very good things in it, such as on individual & small plans 80% needs to be spent on medical & on large plans 85%. We may not get everything we want on the 1st shot but the important thing is to get the ball rolling.

[Rohirrim]

this is part of what I posted on another thread but thought it also applied to this one.



I support opening up medicare to all,but unfortunately with the likes of Nelson,landreiu,lincoln & lieberman we couldn't acheive that. There are some very good things in it, such as on individual & small plans 80% needs to be spent on medical & on large plans 85%. We may not get everything we want on the 1st shot but the important thing is to get the ball rolling.

Without cost controls, the industry will simply raise rates to make up for any shortfall the new bill imposes on them. It's basically another AIG bailout for the insurance industry.

BTW, it might be too late, but I suggest buying insurance company stock. It's going through the roof.

[cutthemdown]

I don't think conservatives should be to unhappy with the bill, nor liberals happy. I mean all the really big stuff got defeated. All this will do is make premiums go up and more money for big insurance companies.

No cheaper drugs, no subsidies for abortions, no medicare early buy in, and the big kicker NO PUBLIC OPTION.

IMO it seems more like what would have been the republican counter proposal. If repubs were smart they would have played it more that way. IMO though the RNC and the republican leadership not really that on the ball right now.

[cutthemdown]

Without cost controls, the industry will simply raise rates to make up for any shortfall the new bill imposes on them. It's basically another AIG bailout for the insurance industry.

BTW, it might be too late, but I suggest buying insurance company stock. It's going through the roof.

I can't believe liberals supporting this. It's a total washout of what they wanted. Not to mention no reforms for what 3-4 yrs? in that time Insurance companies will be raising rates raping people and cutting off people who are expensive. Then in the end they will make even more when young people who don't use insurance are forced to buy in.

[Rohirrim]

I don't think conservatives should be to unhappy with the bill, nor liberals happy. I mean all the really big stuff got defeated. All this will do is make premiums go up and more money for big insurance companies.

No cheaper drugs, no subsidies for abortions, no medicare early buy in, and the big kicker NO PUBLIC OPTION.

IMO it seems more like what would have been the republican counter proposal. If repubs were smart they would have played it more that way. IMO though the RNC and the republican leadership not really that on the ball right now.

It's pretty funny, when you think about it. All the Republicans did was sit on the sidelines saying "No, no, no, no" and they got the bill they would have wrote themselves. Ha!

And people ask me why I'm not a democrat. Democrats are chicken ****s. :rofl:

[cutthemdown]

That should be nothing new to anyone who follows politics.

Dems have seldom marched in lockstep like the GOP.

Anyone who follows politics should know this. For sometime, and even some now some democrats from conservative states more republican then some republicans from more liberal areas like california etc.

Dems appeal to a way wider base, but also sometimes have trouble consolidating the power. I think they are doing pretty well right now though, but if jobs don't pick up they may get smashed in the midterm elections.

[The Lone Bolt]

It amazes me how many "experts" in health care we have here. How about giving the reforms a chance before declaring them a failure? ???

[cutthemdown]

It amazes me how many "experts" in health care we have here. How about giving the reforms a chance before declaring them a failure? ???

Well its just every major point Obama proposed got washed out. Politically I find it amusing Repubs feel like they got beat. IMO they won. No public option, no abortion, no medicare buy in. Sure it will add some tax and govt subsidies but no way they could avoid losing on those.

I actually like the not being able to cancel people, not being able to deny people who want insurance, it's just I also know that its going to make it more expensive for everyone.

It's good for sick people who are poor though I guess.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Obama hails 60th Senate vote for health care


(http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/brand/SIG=br2v03/*http://www.ap.org)
<!-- end .primary-media --> http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20091219/capt.7f110297a5cf4f0282eb748cb1891260.obama_health _care_whgh115.jpg?x=213&y=152&xc=2&yc=1&wc=408&hc=291&q=85&sig=zhZX1qMb4PBMGlDgCrqEog-- (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/President-Barack-Obama/photo//091219/480/7f110297a5cf4f0282eb748cb1891260//s:/ap/20091220/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul) <cite class="caption">AP – President Barack Obama speaks on climate change and healthcare reform in the Diplomatic Reception Room …</cite>

<!-- end .secondary-media -->
<!-- end .related-media --> <cite class="vcard"> By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent David Espo, Ap Special Correspondent </cite> – <abbr title="2009-12-19T16:48:48-0800" class="recenttimedate">

11 mins ago</abbr>
<!-- end .byline -->

WASHINGTON – Jubilant Democrats locked in Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson as the 60th and decisive vote for historic health care legislation Saturday, putting President Barack Obama's signature issue firmly on a path for Christmas Eve passage.
At the White House, Obama swiftly welcomed the breakthrough, saying, "After a nearly century-long struggle, we are on the cusp of making health care reform a reality in the United States of America."


In the Capitol, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid smiled broadly when asked if Nelson's decision gave him the 60-vote majority necessary to overcome solid Republican opposition. "Seems that way," he said. The Nevada Democrat agreed to a series of concessions on abortion and other issues demanded by Nelson in daylong talks on Friday, then informed Obama of the agreement in a late night phone call as the president flew home from climate talks in Copenhagen.


The Congressional Budget Office said the Senate bill would extend coverage to more than 30 million Americans who lack it. It also imposes new regulations to curb abuses of the insurance industry, and the president noted one last-minute addition would impose penalties on companies that "arbitrarily jack up prices" in advance of the legislation taking effect.


CBO analysts also said the legislation would cut federal deficits by $132 billion over 10 years and possibly much more in the subsequent decade.


The developments unfolded on a day of improbables — a snowstorm enveloped the Capitol, creating whiteout conditions outside; while inside senators staged dueling news conferences as if their presence on the Saturday before Christmas was the rule rather than the rarest of exceptions.


At its core, the legislation would create a new insurance exchange where consumers could shop for affordable coverage that complied with new federal guidelines. Most Americans would be required to purchase insurance, with federal subsidies available to help defray the cost for lower and middle income individuals and families.


In a concession to Nelson and other moderates, the bill lacks a government-run insurance option of the type that House Democrats inserted into theirs. In a final defeat for liberals, a proposed Medicare expansion was also jettisoned in the past several days as Reid and the White House maneuvered for 60 votes.


Outnumbered Republicans unleashed a new series of attacks against the legislation and vowed to delay its passage as long as possible. The next — and most critical — test vote was set for about 1 a.m. Monday.


To secure passage, Democrats will need to show 60 votes on two additional occasions, and in the meantime, Reid made sure Republicans would have no additional chances to seek changes to the measure.


"This bill is a legislative train wreck of historic proportions," the party's leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, said at a news conference. He pointed to cuts to Medicare that CBO said totaled more than $470 billion over a decade, with reductions in planned payments to home health care agencies and hospices. He also said the bill includes "massive tax increases" at a time of double-digit unemployment.


Republicans also noted that CBO concluded that under the bill, "federal outlays for health care would increase during the 2010-2019 period, as would the federal budgetary commitment to health care."


True to their word, Republicans objected when Reid sought permission for Nelson to announce his decision in a speech on the Senate floor, then insisted clerks read aloud 383 pages of last-minute changes the majority leader unveiled.
Many of Reid's revisions were designed to secure the 60 votes needed to steer the bill past the GOP filibuster.


Those drafted at Nelson's behest drew the most attention, and included further restrictions on abortion coverage in policies sold inside the exchanges.
States would be permitted to ban insurance coverage of abortions in policies sold in the exchange, except in cases of rape, incest or when the life of the mother is in jeopardy. In states where such coverage is permitted, consumers must notify their insurance company they want it, and pay for it separately.


The Nebraskan also won increased federal funds to cover his state's cost of covering an expanded Medicaid population at a cost that one Democratic official put at $45 million over a decade, and took credit for easing the bill's impact as well as other, smaller changes.


When he finally announced his decision, Nelson did so at a news conference in a Capitol corridor, rather than from his Senate desk as Democrats had preferred. Noting the bruising negotiations over abortion, he said, "I know this is hard for some of my colleagues to accept and I appreciate their right to disagree. But I would not have voted for this bill without these provisions."


Senators who support abortion rights accepted the changes reluctantly. But conservative Republicans and the National Right to Life Committee criticized them as a step backward from the equivalent part of the House bill, and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops also opposed them.


Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., who pushed through the restrictions in the House-passed bill, also rejected Nelson's deal. He called it "not acceptable" because it "would allow the federal government to subsidize insurance policies with abortion coverage." He said he intends to keep working to find a solution that would allow him to ultimately vote for the health care bill.


Nelson, Nebraska's former state insurance commissioner, wasn't the only squeaky senatorial wheel within the 60-member Democratic caucus.
Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., claimed credit for a last-minute, $10 billion increase in funding for community health centers nationwide, which he said would create new or expanded facilities in 10,000 areas and provide primary care for 25 million more Americans.


Sanders made an impassioned speech on the Senate floor earlier in the week on behalf of a doomed proposal for government-run health care. In an interview, he said he only agreed to vote for the legislation on Friday, when Reid told him additional billions for the health centers would be included.


Another provision in Reid's changes provides additional federal funding for hospitals in Montana, North Dakota, Wyoming and the Dakotas, although no cost estimate was available.


The House passed its version of the bill in November, and final compromise talks are expected to begin after a brief break for the holidays. Numerous issues must be resolved — including the role of government in the new insurance market and abortion restrictions. But Democrats have made a point all year of compromising on difficult issues in the name of the most far-reaching changes in the nation's health care system in generations, and hope to have a bill for Obama to sign before next month's State of the Union address to Congress.


In place of a government-run insurance option, the estimated 30 million Americans purchasing coverage through new insurance exchanges would have the option of signing up for national plans overseen by the same office that manages health coverage for federal employees and members of Congress. Those plans would be privately owned, but operated on a nonprofit basis, as many Blue Cross Blue Shield plans are now.


Insurance companies would be barred immediately from denying coverage to children because of a pre-existing health condition. The prohibition on denial of coverage for adults would not take effect in the Senate bill until 2014, a disappointment for consumer advocates.


Among the changes Reid incorporated was dropping a proposed tax on cosmetic surgical procedures, including Botox injections. Instead, Senate Democrats are proposing a 10 percent sales tax on tanning salons, to be paid by the person soaking up the rays. The Food and Drug Administration says ultraviolet radiation from tanning can increase the risk of skin cancer.


The revised bill also calls for a .9 percent increase in the Medicare payroll tax on incomes over $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for couples. Reid's earlier bill had a smaller hike, .5 percent.


The bill also taxes high-cost insurance plans as part of a plan to put downward pressure on health care use.
___
Associated Press writers Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Andrew Taylor, Donna Cassata and Erica Werner contributed to this story.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091220/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

[cutthemdown]

It's pretty funny, when you think about it. All the Republicans did was sit on the sidelines saying "No, no, no, no" and they got the bill they would have wrote themselves. Ha!

And people ask me why I'm not a democrat. Democrats are chicken ****s. :rofl:

I was wondering if anyone else saw it like I did. Repubs should just now say we will vote for the bill LOL!!!!!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's good for sick people who are poor though I guess.

That's one of the victories here (and why the repigs hate it.)

[JJJ]

It amazes me how many "experts" in health care we have here. How about giving the reforms a chance before declaring them a failure? ???

Yeah, let's just try out a $2.5T experiment shall we? You know, just to see if it works.

San Diego is supposed to be the only place in California with some common sense.

Your argument is the reason some smaller incremental steps should be tried first. Given the economy let's try an evolutionary set of changes that are more inclined to work rather than a revolutionary one that is more inclined to fail.

[bpc]

Go murder babies on your own dime you ****ing immoral bastards.

[Rohirrim]

Yeah, let's just try out a $2.5T experiment shall we? You know, just to see if it works.

San Diego is supposed to be the only place in California with some common sense.

Your argument is the reason some smaller incremental steps should be tried first. Given the economy let's try an evolutionary set of changes that are more inclined to work rather than a revolutionary one that is more inclined to fail.

I would think that somebody who claims to be from "Confederation Helvetica" would support a subsidized, non-profit health care system.

[JJJ]

I would think that somebody who claims to be from "Confederation Helvetica" would support a subsidized, non-profit health care system.

Why?

The Swiss system is a private-company based health care system provided by for-profit companies. Swiss employers provide basically no health care assistance and the citizens have to buy at least the minimum coverage typically around 4,000 CHF per year themselves (about $4000 at today's exchange rates). Out of pocket expense are high to encourage people to only use what they need and are another 1.2k per year on average. So it is not cheap (over $5k per year) and the individual takes on the costs directly.

Most people with jobs in the US are paying far less than that with their employer paying for on average 75% of the costs of the US plans.

The government will only subsidize a person if they spend more than 8% of their income on health care. The companies are not allowed to make a profit on the basic coverage, but they make quite a bit on extended coverages for private room hospitalization and such.

I think the Swiss model is the kind of system the US should be considering employing if they want to extend coverage. It is not perfect, quite expensive for the individuals, squeezes the doctor's earninings, but has some redeeming features such as getting everyone covered.

It is a small step to go from the employer-provided care now in the US to the Swiss system. Certainly no single payer system needed to replicate it.

As we know there is not a perfect system out there. You have to choose the lesser of the evils that works in that country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/health/policy/01swiss.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

[BroncoBuff]

Dean is right. Go back to the House, write a new bill, and shove it through with reconciliation. Tell Lieberman and the Republicans to go **** themselves. The rich are rich enough. Time to do something for the rest of America.

There must be some reason why they don't use reconciliation ... what is their stated reason? Isn't health care important enough for such drastic measures?

[BroncoBuff]

Dems have seldom marched in lockstep like the GOP.
Therein lies the problem.

[UberBroncoMan]

Yeah, let's just try out a $2.5T experiment shall we? You know, just to see if it works.

San Diego is supposed to be the only place in California with some common sense.

Your argument is the reason some smaller incremental steps should be tried first. Given the economy let's try an evolutionary set of changes that are more inclined to work rather than a revolutionary one that is more inclined to fail.

On top of this I wonder how many of the supporters here have been under Government health care... I have?

The military and their families are under this type of health care... it sucked, I would know.

So are the Native Americans, it blows.

We aren't SWEDEN... we don't have a population as a nation of a little over 9 million people. They can do this type of health care pretty well since they're so small and they make enough to cover it through their own means such as getting their own oil via offshore drilling (which again works especially well since they have such a tiny population).

I'm in literal amazement that so many people want to put their trust in the government running more ****... it's like asking a kid with downs syndrome to run a Fortune 500 company. Sure he might try hard but he's going to fail miserably.

The less **** our government touches the better off we all are. Again... still in complete amazement that people actually want our pathetically inefficient government to run things like Health Care so we rely even more on the government in our daily lives rather than ourselves.

Sometimes I think these people would go with assigned marriages from the government to ensure a more genetically fair and healthy future. Yeah it's stupid as ****, but so is what's going on right now.

Yuck.

[JJJ]

On top of this I wonder how many of the supporters here have been under Government health care... I have?

The military and their families are under this type of health care... it sucked, I would know.

So are the Native Americans, it blows.

We aren't SWEDEN... we don't have a population as a nation of a little over 9 million people. They can do this type of health care pretty well since they're so small and they make enough to cover it through their own means such as getting their own oil via offshore drilling (which again works especially well since they have such a tiny population).

I'm in literal amazement that so many people want to put their trust in the government running more ****... it's like asking a kid with downs syndrome to run a Fortune 500 company. Sure he might try hard but he's going to fail miserably.

The less **** our government touches the better off we all are. Again... still in complete amazement that people actually want our pathetically inefficient government to run things like Health Care so we rely even more on the government in our daily lives rather than ourselves.

Sometimes I think these people would go with assigned marriages from the government to ensure a more genetically fair and healthy future. Yeah it's stupid as ****, but so is what's going on right now.

Yuck.

Yes indeed. The government role should be limited to setting rules an regs and cutting checks as these are the only things they know how to effectively do outside of the military.

[bpc]

On top of this I wonder how many of the supporters here have been under Government health care... I have?

The military and their families are under this type of health care... it sucked, I would know.

So are the Native Americans, it blows.

We aren't SWEDEN... we don't have a population as a nation of a little over 9 million people. They can do this type of health care pretty well since they're so small and they make enough to cover it through their own means such as getting their own oil via offshore drilling (which again works especially well since they have such a tiny population).

I'm in literal amazement that so many people want to put their trust in the government running more ****... it's like asking a kid with downs syndrome to run a Fortune 500 company. Sure he might try hard but he's going to fail miserably.

The less **** our government touches the better off we all are. Again... still in complete amazement that people actually want our pathetically inefficient government to run things like Health Care so we rely even more on the government in our daily lives rather than ourselves.

Sometimes I think these people would go with assigned marriages from the government to ensure a more genetically fair and healthy future. Yeah it's stupid as ****, but so is what's going on right now.

Yuck.

Military dependent of my parents.... It's GOD AWFUL. It's even worse now as I watch my parents have to go to the VA. Seriously, you couldn't pack more people in the front lobby waiting for service unless it was a can of tuna.

[bpc]

That should be nothing new to anyone who follows politics.

Dems have seldom marched in lockstep like the GOP.

Isn't that why they are called progressives, and repubs called conservatives?

Conservatives have a knowledge of the constitution, the foundation of morals and rules which govern it. They acknowledge that great sacrifice came about to make this country great and actively try to preserve it.

Progressives fall in love with whatever radical ideas are being mongered across the globe and embrace that as the change which is required to make America better?

The only thing that smites the strength of the liberal numbers is their overall stupidity and direction... which is, they have only one. "WE MUST OVERTHROW THE MAN! THE MAN IS KEEPING US DOWN!"

In this case, the man must be the constitution by the way they keep trying to radicalize it, like themselves.

[peacepipe]

Military dependent of my parents.... It's GOD AWFUL. It's even worse now as I watch my parents have to go to the VA. Seriously, you couldn't pack more people in the front lobby waiting for service unless it was a can of tuna.So more VAs need to be built, There's a difference between health care coverage & the capacity a VA can handle. I'm a military dependent as well & never had any problems, My mom is disabled & has no problems other than sometimes as you say it's busy but that is a separate issue from coverage.

[bpc]

So more VAs need to be built, There's a difference between health care coverage & the capacity a VA can handle. I'm a military dependent as well & never had any problems, My mom is disabled & has no problems other than sometimes as you say it's busy but that is a separate issue from coverage.

I wish that were the case. VA hospitals are treated like the plague by doctors and officials... they are often underpaid (the future for HC workers in a government based, controlled expense healthcare system despite MASSIVE amounts of debt to get the schooling necessary to produce in the field) for the volume of work that is required. The turnover is greater there than any other hospital i've ever seen. My dad had his primary care doctor switch 4 times within a 6 month period. INEFFICIENT. Generally the care is lacking as well and the answers are always different between one doctor to the next.

For instance, my dad has adult onset diabetes, blood levels that were constantly running high, and has to be on cumiden(sp) for blood clots that he suffers from injuries related to two stints in Vietnam. At the beginning of this 6 month period is when all the symptoms started appearing with an intense burning in his his chest. Despite alarming warning signs, it took MONTHS to get any sort of straight answers and when doctors switched, they started batteries of tests all over. After 6 months, the VA decided removal of his gallbladder was the way to proceed.

After surgery, my dad still has issues with the burning sensations and the doctors had to keep him in the hospitals because of how high his blood sugar was reading yet they sent him home without prescribing insulin. They often didn't interpret his blood sugar problem being as bad as it was and what should have been a 2 day hospital visit according to doctors turned into nearly a week long ordeal as they didn't anticipate his problem being as bad as it was. To boot, they didn't pass along the info that my dad had diabetes to the dietician and he was given carb/desert heavy meals which he couldn't eat and wasn't changed until his third day in the IC.

To boot, VA has never fully given my dad 100% disability despite his issues stemming from over 20 years of service for this country in the Navy and the fact that he can't work, hell he can hardly move. That's just the cherry on top though on the healthcare government officials provide.

What you see in this situation is a screwed up, precarious situation on a much smaller level of government led HEALTHCARE. We all assume that the government is going to throw their weight behind SOCIAL healthcare and it's going to be great but look at how incapable they are of even taking care of our veterans. I mean, who deserves better healthcare than them for their services rendered to this great country of ours?

VA medical service is highlighted by long waits, generally poor, inaccurate care by subpar practitioners and haggling over care which should be assumed. That is what we as nation, have to look forward to.

I have very little faith in what comes next for us, forced into government run healthcare and my parents feel very bad for us that we are going to be subjected to what they have to go through against our will.

[The Lone Bolt]

Yeah, let's just try out a $2.5T experiment shall we? You know, just to see if it works.

San Diego is supposed to be the only place in California with some common sense.

Your argument is the reason some smaller incremental steps should be tried first. Given the economy let's try an evolutionary set of changes that are more inclined to work rather than a revolutionary one that is more inclined to fail.

I don't think the coming reforms are the shot-in-the-dark you make them out to be. They're based on recommendations of many experts in the field. I also tend to prefer incremental change but the current system is such a disaster that tweaking it isn't going to do squat. It's like suggesting that the Titanic should have altered course a few inches at a time while the iceberg approached.