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Bronco Rob
12-15-2009, 05:03 AM
Inefficient offense plagues Broncos


Posted Dec. 14, 2009 @ 5:19 p.m.
By Dan Parr


The Broncos were unable to become the first team to beat the Colts this season despite outgaining them 357-312 in total yards and picking off QB Peyton Manning three times, which is the most interceptions he has thrown in a game this season. Brandon Marshall had one of the most impressive performances by a receiver in history, setting an NFL record by making 21 catches, yet Denver lost 28-16 thanks in large part to a failure to convert in crucial situations.

Josh McDaniels' offense was just 6-for-17 on third downs and 0-for-3 on fourth downs. PK Matt Prater missed a 42-yard field goal and QB Kyle Orton had a pass picked off at Indianapolis' 1-yard line in the third quarter. The Broncos twice committed penalties in 3rd-and-1 situations in the third quarter and converted two of their four red-zone trips into touchdowns while the Colts scored a TD on all four of their trips into the red zone.

Denver is still leading in the hunt for a wild-card spot in the playoffs and will face a Raiders team that could be starting JaMarcus Russell at quarterback next week.


The PFW spin

On a day when Manning threw three picks and Marshall had 21 catches, it would seem that scoring more than 16 points wouldn't be too much of a challenge for the Broncos, but they just couldn't take advantage of the Colts' mistakes and had too many errors of their own.

Denver scored just three points off of Manning's three turnovers and the team is averaging 19.7 points this season. Only seven teams have scored fewer touchdowns not counting defensive or special-teams scores than the Broncos, who have scored 23 TDs by running or throwing into the endzone.

The Broncos have surpassed many observers' expectations already by getting eight wins, but Sunday's performance was significant because it suggests that the offense isn't making some necessary strides or becoming more efficient even at this late juncture of the season.

Yes, the Broncos scored 44 points the previous week, but those came against the Chiefs, who will not be awaiting Denver in the playoffs. This team has a very good shot at getting 10 wins with two of its final three games against Oakland and Kansas City, and it's likely headed to the postseason, but it's hard to see Denver making much noise when it gets there with an offense that failed to convert great opportunities into points as often as it did Sunday.



http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/12/14/inefficient-offense-plagues-broncos-2

fontaine
12-15-2009, 06:02 AM
As questionable as it was for McDaniels to continue pounding Moreno up the middle with Larsen out, Moreno gimpy and the OL coming up short, I can't fault him too much for the offensive problems.

He's made it clear time and time again to the team that penalties in the red zone are unaccepteable. He called a few screens which were snuffed out by their fast front 7. I suppose he could have called a few draw plays also but in the end Buckhalter being out, Scheff hurting his back and the interior just getting man handled really screwed up any creative play calling options.

supermanhr9
12-15-2009, 07:02 AM
Well All I know dsometimes offensive touchdowns aren't all what their cracked up to be. I know the bears went to the superbowl (a season where Orton played a siginifciant part early on) entirely because their special teams and defense put up scores. Personally I don't care how we put points up, just as long as we do.

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:03 AM
8th fewest TDs? Well that means the offense is golden. Try telling people here that something needs fixed. An unproductive offense is the formula for SBs according to the orange mane experts.

For real though, this team has a few things to work on this offseason. Bringing in a new QB that can at least provide real competition would be my first priority. Then I would use FA and some mid round picks to get a new LG and C. I would then spend the rest of my resources on defense. There is some season left so this could change by the offseason.

misturanderson
12-15-2009, 08:28 AM
8th fewest TDs? Well that means the offense is golden. Try telling people here that something needs fixed. An unproductive offense is the formula for SBs according to the orange mane experts.

For real though, this team has a few things to work on this offseason. Bringing in a new QB that can at least provide real competition would be my first priority. Then I would use FA and some mid round picks to get a new LG and C. I would then spend the rest of my resources on defense. There is some season left so this could change by the offseason.

Aren't the colts the #2 scoring defense in the NFL? It's not as if they have never held anyone to under 20 points before. In fact 9 of the 13 teams they have played have failed to score 20 points and they aren't all terrible teams either.

I also like how the article goes on to act like the Broncos can't compete with playoff teams because they can't score boat loads of points against the colts. Last time I checked, we have already beaten 4 teams that will be in the playoffs this year and another 2 that still have a shot.

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:38 AM
Aren't the colts the #2 scoring defense in the NFL? It's not as if they have never held anyone to under 20 points before. In fact 9 of the 13 teams they have played have failed to score 20 points and they aren't all terrible teams either.

I also like how the article goes on to act like the Broncos can't compete with playoff teams because they can't score boat loads of points against the colts. Last time I checked, we have already beaten 4 teams that will be in the playoffs this year and another 2 that still have a shot.

The lack of offense is a season problem, not a single game problem. You don't think the defense would enjoy a lot less pressure every game? I know you guys have something against complete teams but the ones that stay competitive are good in all 3 phases, not 2. At least early this season we didn't have as many turnovers. Now they are starting to turn it over, which eliminates the ball control offense defense.

Inkana7
12-15-2009, 10:49 AM
What's interesting is that we're tied with Gay Cutler's Bears with 27 Touchdowns.

loborugger
12-15-2009, 10:57 AM
I would agree absolutely that the offense is inefficient. But here is the thing... the offense was inefficient last year, too. They were what, #2 in total offense last year and only #16 in points scored. Drives that sputter, settling for field goals, etc, has been an ongoing problem with our offense for a couple of years now.

broncocalijohn
12-15-2009, 11:31 AM
I would agree absolutely that the offense is inefficient. But here is the thing... the offense was inefficient last year, too. They were what, #2 in total offense last year and only #16 in points scored. Drives that sputter, settling for field goals, etc, has been an ongoing problem with our offense for a couple of years now.

It is still no excuse. Sounding like jhns, if it wasnt for this defense, we wouldnt be in the position we currently are enjoying. This offense is looking more and more like last year where this one at least gets a little slip due to the less frequent interception mistakes that Cutler made. You can be mad at this offense and not put the entire blame on Orton. Penalties and not converting on 3rd/4th and short has killed drives this year. Last game playing the mighty Colts shouldnt be an excuse for the inept offense. Even though we were down 21-0, we had all the opps to get back in that game to win it and blew it. I am not pissed that we lost to a great team, I am just disappointed how it came about on both sides of the ball. If this team wants to win a playoff game on the road, it will need to score more points than the average now. At Cinci or At Pats will be tough scoring less than 20 points.

Tom G
12-15-2009, 11:53 AM
I would agree absolutely that the offense is inefficient. But here is the thing... the offense was inefficient last year, too. They were what, #2 in total offense last year and only #16 in points scored. Drives that sputter, settling for field goals, etc, has been an ongoing problem with our offense for a couple of years now.

I've explained this earlier but I'll do it again.

Yards gained is a pure offense statistic. It is a measure of offense proficiency.

Total points is a composite team statistic. It includes points scored by the defense (Denver next to last in '08), points scored by special teams (Denver next to last), field goal percentage (Denver dead last). Also, starting field position is a major factor in scoring (Denver dead last) as are takeaways inside the 40 (Denver dead last).

As far as red zone efficiency is concerned, Denvers TD RZ percentage in '08was 56 percent, upper half NFL and better than McDs '08 New England Patriots (52percent) and far better than this years Bronco numbers.

Sorry to disagree, but when normalized for the offense having the handicap of the NFLs worst overall defense, worst STs, worst FG percentage and worst field position, the offense based on points was as efficient as the offense based on total yards.

And wouldn't you love to have last years offense with this years defense.

colonelbeef
12-15-2009, 11:56 AM
I've explained this earlier but I'll do it again.

Yards gained is a pure offense statistic. It is a measure of offense proficiency.

Total points is a composite team statistic. It includes points scored by the defense (Denver next to last in '08), points scored by special teams (Denver next to last), field goal percentage (Denver dead last). Also, starting field position is a major factor in scoring (Denver dead last) as are takeaways inside the 40 (Denver dead last).

As far as red zone efficiency is concerned, Denvers TD RZ percentage in '08was 56 percent, upper half NFL and better than McDs '08 New England Patriots (52percent) and far better than this years Bronco numbers.

Sorry to disagree, but when normalized for the offense having the handicap of the NFLs worst overall defense, worst STs, worst FG percentage and worst field position, the offense based on points was as efficient as the offense based on total yards.

And wouldn't you love to have last years offense with this years defense.

Please keep posting this until people understand it.

missingnumber7
12-15-2009, 12:05 PM
When you leave points on the field, Marshall not getting out of bounds before the half so you don't even get an attempt, Orton throwing an INT in the red zone, and a missed FG, you are going to have to work harder to win. When you do that against Payton Manning you are going to lose. We had them beat flat out, but their D stepped up and did what they needed to do. We are back to the same problem we had last year. This team and its coaching staff does not have the killer instinct. They are a completely different team since the bye week and the team before the bye had the killer instinct. It showed against NE and SD. Its not there any more. The two wins since then were get up big and coast to the end. This team needs to play a complete game and they struggle to do that.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 12:10 PM
And wouldn't you love to have last years offense with this years defense.

Actually, I'd love to have this year's offense with last year's schedule.

jhns
12-15-2009, 12:11 PM
I've explained this earlier but I'll do it again.

Yards gained is a pure offense statistic. It is a measure of offense proficiency.

Total points is a composite team statistic. It includes points scored by the defense (Denver next to last in '08), points scored by special teams (Denver next to last), field goal percentage (Denver dead last). Also, starting field position is a major factor in scoring (Denver dead last) as are takeaways inside the 40 (Denver dead last).

As far as red zone efficiency is concerned, Denvers TD RZ percentage in '08was 56 percent, upper half NFL and better than McDs '08 New England Patriots (52percent) and far better than this years Bronco numbers.

Sorry to disagree, but when normalized for the offense having the handicap of the NFLs worst overall defense, worst STs, worst FG percentage and worst field position, the offense based on points was as efficient as the offense based on total yards.

And wouldn't you love to have last years offense with this years defense.

This will probably be my only post on this as this subject makes people go crazy here but you are correct. If you take out defensive and special teams TDs(leaving FGs and allowing the bad kicking to stay in the equation), this offense was 11th in scoring(9th with 2 more FGs made). Those same numbers would be a much higher rank this year. It drove further than any offense in the league, per drive. It had the efficiency in the red zone you quoted. They punted the fewest times per drive in the league. They also took their 32nd ranked field position, while working with crap special teams, and gave the defense the 16th best starting field position. Our defense saw something like the 7th fewest drives in the league and still was one of the worst denver has ever had. The only thing they were bad at was turnovers, which didn't help the bad defense.

They were also all rookie-third year guys and we had 7 RBs on IR. The o-line was considered one of the best in the league and the receivers were a top unit. Now the line is suddenly a weakness and the all but Marshall have dropped off bad. This is exactly why I complain about the offense looking so bad. According to this place, we had the worst QB in the world on this team last season. Why can't this team produce then and why did everyone get worse? I highly doubt the scheme is to complex for guys like Royal, who ran exact routes and mastered Shanahans playbook in his rookie offseason.

gunns
12-15-2009, 12:30 PM
Aren't the colts the #2 scoring defense in the NFL? It's not as if they have never held anyone to under 20 points before. In fact 9 of the 13 teams they have played have failed to score 20 points and they aren't all terrible teams either.

I also like how the article goes on to act like the Broncos can't compete with playoff teams because they can't score boat loads of points against the colts. Last time I checked, we have already beaten 4 teams that will be in the playoffs this year and another 2 that still have a shot.

I think our defense has gone above and beyond this year in limiting the opposing teams scores. There have been exceptions but often it's because the offense isn't producing and the defense is just plain worn out. No, we don't need to score boat loads of points and that's primarily because the defense have kept the other team from scoring boat loads of points. But our offense does need to score more points than the opposing team. That's kindergarten stuff, and the losses can be blamed on that and stupid ass mistakes. Last year it was primarily the D, this year it's primarily the O and yes, Orton can take a chunk of the blame. I hate seeing the Griese mentality of blaming everyone BUT Orton.

WolfpackGuy
12-15-2009, 12:33 PM
I think our defense has gone above and beyond this year in limiting the opposing teams scores. There have been exceptions but often it's because the offense isn't producing and the defense is just plain worn out.


Very true.

The Ravens and Steelers losses were a direct result of the offense doing NOTHING to help the defense.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 12:35 PM
I think our defense has gone above and beyond this year in limiting the opposing teams scores. There have been exceptions but often it's because the offense isn't producing and the defense is just plain worn out. No, we don't need to score boat loads of points and that's primarily because the defense have kept the other team from scoring boat loads of points. But our offense does need to score more points than the opposing team. That's kindergarten stuff, and the losses can be blamed on that and stupid ass mistakes. Last year it was primarily the D, this year it's primarily the O and yes, Orton can take a chunk of the blame. I hate seeing the Griese mentality of blaming everyone BUT Orton.

I understand what you're saying but, to be fair, it's not like the Broncos have lost any 6-9 or 7-10 type games here. The defense has given up 29 pts on average in their losses.

loborugger
12-15-2009, 12:52 PM
It is still no excuse. Sounding like jhns, if it wasnt for this defense, we wouldnt be in the position we currently are enjoying. This offense is looking more and more like last year where this one at least gets a little slip due to the less frequent interception mistakes that Cutler made. You can be mad at this offense and not put the entire blame on Orton. Penalties and not converting on 3rd/4th and short has killed drives this year. Last game playing the mighty Colts shouldnt be an excuse for the inept offense. Even though we were down 21-0, we had all the opps to get back in that game to win it and blew it. I am not pissed that we lost to a great team, I am just disappointed how it came about on both sides of the ball. If this team wants to win a playoff game on the road, it will need to score more points than the average now. At Cinci or At Pats will be tough scoring less than 20 points.

I agree 100 percent.

Popps
12-15-2009, 12:59 PM
The good news is, we don't seem to be running a ton of 3 and outs. We're moving the ball. The bad news is, we've got to be more efficient in the red zone.

Again, first-year offense... this isn't a total shock. We'll get guys like Royal more involved as we move forward. I really think McD wants to bash people in the mouth, so that philosophy is going to take time to install, coming from a finesse offensive mindset.

Merlin
12-15-2009, 01:30 PM
I would agree absolutely that the offense is inefficient. But here is the thing... the offense was inefficient last year, too. They were what, #2 in total offense last year and only #16 in points scored. .
When you did not include points by the defense and STs, which is a more accurate measure of points scored by the offense, Denver was top 10.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 01:36 PM
When you did not include points by the defense and STs, which is a more accurate measure of points scored by the offense, Denver was top 10.

This year's might be there as well if they played last year's schedule.

lex
12-15-2009, 01:43 PM
The good news is, we don't seem to be running a ton of 3 and outs. We're moving the ball. The bad news is, we've got to be more efficient in the red zone.

Again, first-year offense... this isn't a total shock. We'll get guys like Royal more involved as we move forward. I really think McD wants to bash people in the mouth, so that philosophy is going to take time to install, coming from a finesse offensive mindset.

Translation, McDaniels is willing to waste a good season on defense because of some fixation. Good to know youre ok with that.

broncocalijohn
12-15-2009, 02:16 PM
Translation, McDaniels is willing to waste a good season on defense because of some fixation. Good to know youre ok with that.

monkeyboy, what was the "waste"? Please extend this thread to 7 pages or more and come back to say it was getting rid of Cutler. I beg that is not what you meant, but I have this feeling it is. Fixation? So, McDaniels needed to keep Shanahan as co-head coach so he can keep working with the offense, correct?

jhns
12-15-2009, 02:21 PM
So, McDaniels needed to keep Shanahan as co-head coach so he can keep working with the offense, correct?

If only that was a possibility. I loved what Shanahan and the Goodmans were building on offense. To bad they forgot you need a defense to play football.

loborugger
12-15-2009, 03:27 PM
When you did not include points by the defense and STs, which is a more accurate measure of points scored by the offense, Denver was top 10.

My bad... However, I do remember the team racking up 35 to 45 points in the first month of the season and towards the end having a tough time getting into the 20s. I am too lazy to do it, but I bet if adjusted for that first month of the season (as in threw it out), you would see that we are back in the middle of the pack.

Atwater His Ass
12-15-2009, 03:36 PM
I've explained this earlier but I'll do it again.

Yards gained is a pure offense statistic. It is a measure of offense proficiency.

Total points is a composite team statistic. It includes points scored by the defense (Denver next to last in '08), points scored by special teams (Denver next to last), field goal percentage (Denver dead last). Also, starting field position is a major factor in scoring (Denver dead last) as are takeaways inside the 40 (Denver dead last).

As far as red zone efficiency is concerned, Denvers TD RZ percentage in '08was 56 percent, upper half NFL and better than McDs '08 New England Patriots (52percent) and far better than this years Bronco numbers.

Sorry to disagree, but when normalized for the offense having the handicap of the NFLs worst overall defense, worst STs, worst FG percentage and worst field position, the offense based on points was as efficient as the offense based on total yards.

And wouldn't you love to have last years offense with this years defense.

Finally some more people with some sense and understanding why last year's offense was light years ahead of this years.

People are so butt-hurt over Cutler leaving that they absolutely refuse to acknowledge his success while he was here.

Popps
12-15-2009, 03:42 PM
Translation, McDaniels is willing to waste a good season on defense because of some fixation. Good to know youre ok with that.

Huh?

You're a slow guy, but I'd expect even you to be able to understand the concept of scheme/philosophy shift.

Guess this stuff is just over your head. Resume your poo-poo-face name calling.

Popps
12-15-2009, 03:44 PM
Finally some more people with some sense and understanding why last year's offense was light years ahead of this years.
.

We're averaging 3 points less per game... and turning the ball over SIGNIFICANTLY less than last season.

Light years?

Funny.

Inkana7
12-15-2009, 03:44 PM
Finally some more people with some sense and understanding why last year's offense was light years ahead of this years.

People are so butt-hurt over Cutler leaving that they absolutely refuse to acknowledge his success while he was here.

And...what success was that?

Popps
12-15-2009, 03:47 PM
And...what success was that?

Dude, he was 2nd in INTs. You can't finish in 1st place every year.

lex
12-15-2009, 03:57 PM
Huh?

You're a slow guy, but I'd expect even you to be able to understand the concept of scheme/philosophy shift.

Guess this stuff is just over your head. Resume your poo-poo-face name calling.

The scheme is no longer new and its now an old excuse. Also some of the short yardage calls evoke the definition of insanity.

Popps
12-15-2009, 04:08 PM
The scheme is no longer new and its now an old excuse. Also some of the short yardage calls evoke the definition of insanity.

A scheme is new in its first year.


However, I won't disagree that some of the short yardage calls are questionable. I'm not a fan of slow developing short yardage plays without the hogs up front to maul people off of the ball.