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RhymesayersDU
12-13-2009, 01:20 PM
Look, I know it's fashionable to say the defense is bad, a work in progress, etc. I know we all want better defensive linemen, LB's, safeties, etc.

But we have got to draft offense, or hit the free agent pool. That offense squandered so many opportunities it's ridiculous. I don't know if it's Orton, I don't know if we need better guards or a new center, or what. We obviously don't need a WR. We're probably fine at RB. But our offense is what is limiting this football team, not the defense, at least at this point.

Defense failed to make a play late. I get that. But they handed the offense so many golden opportunities that were just thrown away.

spdirty
12-13-2009, 01:26 PM
interior offensive linemen should be priority number 1. Not so much first round pick, that should be where we get a stud defensive player, but put some money up in free agency and go after it the 2nd round on.

Those 3rd and 4th and shorts were pathetic.

RhymesayersDU
12-13-2009, 01:29 PM
Yeah I guess the bright side of this is that we can upgrade the interior line w/o spending a first or maybe even second round pick.

We also need to stop stepping on our own dicks with penalties. Our line outside of Clady just is not good and undisciplined.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 01:30 PM
The interior of the OL has been destroyed in all of our losses.

Taco John
12-13-2009, 01:32 PM
Are you talking about this season, or are you talking about next season?

If you're talking about this season, I think the only "fix" we have for this offense is getting Payton Hillis more invovled. Will that "fix" all of our problems? Probably not. But Payton adds an element to our offense, and as shown by the record breaking catches by Marshall while losing, our offense could use another element.

If I were Royal and Gaffney and Stokely, I wonder how I would be feeling right now?

The Joker
12-13-2009, 01:32 PM
The interior O-Line is a mess on short yardage.

Moreno didn't play well today, he looks hesitant, but some of those plays he didn't even have a chance.

razorwire77
12-13-2009, 01:32 PM
1.) Trade back (hopefully the bears pick is top 10).

2.) Draft the best available interior lineman in the low 20's/top of the 2nd. Maybe take a couple in the first 3 rounds.

3.) Take a scat back 4th or 5th rounds that runs well in space, stretches fast defenses (like Indy) and returns kickoffs.

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 01:33 PM
qb, wr, guard and center

LongDongJohnson
12-13-2009, 01:34 PM
weigman is old.

time for an upgrade.

RhymesayersDU
12-13-2009, 01:34 PM
Are you talking about this season, or are you talking about next season?

I'm talking next season for sure, via the draft or free agency. This year we have the team we have, we can't make any major changes.

fontaine
12-13-2009, 01:35 PM
1.) Trade back (hopefully the bears pick is top 10).

2.) Draft the best available interior lineman in the low 20's/top of the 2nd. Maybe take a couple in the first 3 rounds.

3.) Take a scat back 4th or 5th rounds that runs well in space, stretches fast defenses (like Indy) and returns kickoffs.

REP awesome post. I would only add that the bears high pick is thanks to Jay Cutler sucking a$$.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 01:37 PM
I think Orton is a dink and dunk QB at best. He'll get you 5yds here and 10yds there consistently. But he won't make any spectacular plays for you. You won't get many 40yd scoring strikes and he sucks in the red zone. He's boring = our offense is boring.

Our offensive line was built for ZBS. McDaniels keeps trying to push the power running game. We do not have the personnel on the inside for that syle of running game...so, why they hell doesn't he play more ZBS? You are not going to pound the ball up the middle with this group....you have to open up the cut back lanes. McDaniels is a damned idiot for continually trying to run it up the gut on 3rd and 1. It's like he trying to prove something. All I see is stupid call by a dumbass coach.

Garcia Bronco
12-13-2009, 01:37 PM
"We" don't do anything. :)

The Joker
12-13-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm talking next season for sure, via the draft or free agency. This year we have the team we have, we can't make any major changes.

No changes this year?!

Peyton Hillis will solve all.

He doesn't need blockers, in fact he considers it an insult if you try and have guys block for him. Did you see that carry he had today. He ripped off those 2 yards like a legit HOF'er.

Taco John
12-13-2009, 01:40 PM
No changes this year?!

Peyton Hillis will solve all.

He doesn't need blockers, in fact he considers it an insult if you try and have guys block for him. Did you see that carry he had today. He ripped off those 2 yards like a legit HOF'er.



Hillis needs at least 5 carries to warm up. Most runningbacks need at least that.

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 01:40 PM
I think Orton is a dink and dunk QB at best. He'll get you 5yds here and 10yds there consistently. But he won't make any spectacular plays for you. You won't get many 40yd scoring strikes and he sucks in the red zone. He's boring = our offense is boring.

Our offensive line was built for ZBS. McDaniels keeps trying to push the power running game. We do not have the personnel on the inside for that syle of running game...so, why they hell doesn't he play more ZBS? You are not going to pound the ball up the middle with this group....you have to open up the cut back lanes. McDaniels is a damned idiot for continually trying to run it up the gut on 3rd and 1. It's like he trying to prove something. All I see is stupid call by a dumbass coach.

agree. you need a 15 play perfect drive to score with him. A big reason why the running game sucks is because of the dink a dunk passing game. If we had a qb who teams can worry about beating them, it will help the running game out. I would like to see a qb drafted in round 1 or 2 and a guard or center in round 2 or 3.

wolverine
12-13-2009, 01:41 PM
If we try Moreno up the middle on 4th and short again this year, I'm gonna put a bullet in my head.

The Joker
12-13-2009, 01:43 PM
Hillis needs at least 5 carries to warm up. Most runningbacks need at least that.

Not Peyton Hillis.

He gets warmed up while he sleeps.

BigPlayShay
12-13-2009, 01:43 PM
I'd suggest that we both Offensively and Defensively gameplan for 2 halves of football.

bpc
12-13-2009, 01:47 PM
Anybody pointing anywhere BUT QB first on this list is a friggin tard.

1. Orton - Marshall accounted for 21 of the 29 completions Orton had, also 200 of his 277 yards. If you are a sane, knowledgeable fan, you understand that defenses try to stop what you're having success with... so in this case, Bmarsh is exploding, they are probably rolling coverage, matching up 2 or 3 guys to his area to hold him down. Reasonably, this would open up other WR's for one on one coverages and big plays... I think I remember Eddie Royal being a 100 catch WR last season? Right? Well, if that's the case, why didn't this offense have any big plays with those other guys especially considering how banged up the Colts secondary was? Well, it's quite simple. Orton sucks. The other 8 passes were screen plays. His arm is weak, he can't run, and he doesn't trust himself throwing to a WR's unless they are BMarsh or 5 yds open.

The correct answer to this thread is CHANGE THE QB. We need somebody who is dynamic and gives us a chance to succeed, no matter the odds. Ideally that QB would also have an NFL arm and could move a little. I don't think I'm asking too much if I required a little pocket awareness as well.

Orton is a gritty QB but largely average across the board. He's good enough when paired with a great defense to win games for you. Most NFL QB's can. He won't be winning many playoff games and won't get to the super bowl.

2. Play calling/game planning: I love the stretch play against a speed defense, combined with a slow HB. Awesome. Will work every time. This was one of the most poorly called offensive games this year. It's highlighted by the fact that Brandon had what, his first catch with 17 seconds left to go in the first quarter. How bout we get our best players going first and then work in the wrinkles. Football really isn't as hard as the playcalling made it look in the 1st quarter.

3. Interior line: We want to be physical but we're really finesse. It's not going to change overnight and there are many offensive linemen who can fit the mold of what we need. We just need to commit to drafting or signing a few of them each year. LG has been a blackhole in our offense. Hochstein had a Ben Hamilton like day today.

4. Help at HB: Knowshon is a solid player, not the solo answer. McDaniels used him like a workhorse and he did not respond. Yes, this ties into run blocking as well however, he just does not have the drive to push through 1st defenders. He would work much better with a player in the backfield with him. Buckhalter is serviceable but hardly the long term answer. We need to find somebody who has unique skills for this offense but also can do something different vs. Moreno. I would suggest a speed back although I like the kid from Mississippi State this year as well, i think his name is Dixon. He's a good player.

Mecklomaniac
12-13-2009, 01:48 PM
Picking up another mediocre qb, to compete with the current mediocre qb's while we wait to draft the next franchise qb....

Bronx33
12-13-2009, 01:49 PM
Give it a new playbook and a few OL.... problem solved.

dsmoot
12-13-2009, 01:50 PM
interior offensive linemen should be priority number 1. Not so much first round pick, that should be where we get a stud defensive player, but put some money up in free agency and go after it the 2nd round on.

Those 3rd and 4th and shorts were pathetic.

I have to agree. We just can't play consistently in all situations in the running game. We get no push. We do pass block well. When we ran the zone blocking scheme in the late 90's/early 00's, we had some exceptional linemen that not only were quick and agile but they could match up individually. It wasn't just some exceptional ability by Terrel Davis in between the tackles but our OL could move people. Not now.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-13-2009, 01:50 PM
Say it with me, folks.

Stop.

Running.

The.

Same.

Play.

On.

Short.

Yardage.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 01:51 PM
agree. you need a 15 play perfect drive to score with him. A big reason why the running game sucks is because of the dink a dunk passing game. If we had a qb who teams can worry about beating them, it will help the running game out. I would like to see a qb drafted in round 1 or 2 and a guard or center in round 2 or 3.Exactly. Teams can easily stack the box and use their LB's to run blitz on both 1st and 2nd downs. Against good teams, we don't even attempt to stretch the field.

I heard the announcers say again today that Josh McDaniels said that they wouldn't be able to throw deep because of the Colts 2-deep defense. Man have I heard that alot this year. I don't think I've ever heard that type of statement, until this year. I wonder why?

I think we need an up and coming Center in next years draft and a talented guard as well. I think Kuper has what it takes.

It's amazing how this line was the talk of the NFL both last year and through the first 6 games of this year and all of a sudden fans are saying our line sucks. Why?

1. Orton - Teams stack the line
2. ZBS - All but gone in McDaniel's offense
3. Power Running Game - This line is not built for it.

dsmoot
12-13-2009, 01:52 PM
Anybody pointing anywhere BUT QB first on this list is a friggin tard.

1. Orton - Marshall accounted for 21 of the 29 completions Orton had, also 200 of his 277 yards. If you are a sane, knowledgeable fan, you understand that defenses try to stop what you're having success with... so in this case, Bmarsh is exploding, they are probably rolling coverage, matching up 2 or 3 guys to his area to hold him down. Reasonably, this would open up other WR's for one on one coverages and big plays... I think I remember Eddie Royal being a 100 catch WR last season? Right? Well, if that's the case, why didn't this offense have any big plays with those other guys especially considering how banged up the Colts secondary was? Well, it's quite simple. Orton sucks. The other 8 passes were screen plays. His arm is weak, he can't run, and he doesn't trust himself throwing to a WR's unless they are BMarsh or 5 yds open.

The correct answer to this thread is CHANGE THE QB. We need somebody who is dynamic and gives us a chance to succeed, no matter the odds. Ideally that QB would also have an NFL arm and could move a little. I don't think I'm asking too much if I required a little pocket awareness as well.

Orton is a gritty QB but largely average across the board. He's good enough when paired with a great defense to win games for you. Most NFL QB's can. He won't be winning many playoff games and won't get to the super bowl.

2. Play calling/game planning: I love the stretch play against a speed defense, combined with a slow HB. Awesome. Will work every time. This was one of the most poorly called offensive games this year. It's highlighted by the fact that Brandon had what, his first catch with 17 seconds left to go in the first quarter. How bout we get our best players going first and then work in the wrinkles. Football really isn't as hard as the playcalling made it look in the 1st quarter.

3. Interior line: We want to be physical but we're really finesse. It's not going to change overnight and there are many offensive linemen who can fit the mold of what we need. We just need to commit to drafting or signing a few of them each year. LG has been a blackhole in our offense. Hochstein had a Ben Hamilton like day today.

4. Help at HB: Knowshon is a solid player, not the solo answer. McDaniels used him like a workhorse and he did not respond. Yes, this ties into run blocking as well however, he just does not have the drive to push through 1st defenders. He would work much better with a player in the backfield with him. Buckhalter is serviceable but hardly the long term answer. We need to find somebody who has unique skills for this offense but also can do something different vs. Moreno. I would suggest a speed back although I like the kid from Mississippi State this year as well, i think his name is Dixon. He's a good player.

I love the kid from Alabama who won the Heisman. He is a very tough runner.

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 01:52 PM
I agree bpc. I'm really hoping We pick ahead of the Redskins, Seahawks and Bills. Because if we do that would probably mean a qb would drop to us. The offense just feels crippled right now with Orton.

Doggcow
12-13-2009, 01:53 PM
Need to build the Interior Line.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-13-2009, 01:53 PM
HOW is Orton the problem? We try the same play every time on short yardage, and it never works. Ever.

We've got to mix it up.

broncolife
12-13-2009, 01:53 PM
x-defenders

..X
XOX...............XO....................O

Marshall............Shef.................Any Wr

I wonder which reciever Orton would have thrown to in this game?

Hercules Rockefeller
12-13-2009, 01:55 PM
1.) Trade back (hopefully the bears pick is top 10).

2.) Draft the best available interior lineman in the low 20's/top of the 2nd. Maybe take a couple in the first 3 rounds.


****. That.

Yeah, Denver's in a position to acquire an elite talent in a deep draft, picking much higher than their own record would allow, and they should trade back to take what's normally a non-1st round position.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 01:57 PM
x-defenders

..X
XOX...............XO....................O

Marshall............Shef.................Any Wr

I wonder which reciever Orton would have thrown to in this game?

The one that got open. And Marshal was open.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 01:59 PM
x-defenders

..X
XOX...............XO....................O

Marshall............Shef.................Any Wr

I wonder which reciever Orton would have thrown to in this game?
And completed the pass.

Popps
12-13-2009, 02:00 PM
interior offensive linemen should be priority number 1. Not so much first round pick, that should be where we get a stud defensive player, but put some money up in free agency and go after it the 2nd round on.

Those 3rd and 4th and shorts were pathetic.

That's it. 1st post, and you can pretty much wrap up the thread.


When you're not dominating on both interior lines, you're losing games.


We need more beef/power up front. Continue to build out the lines through next season.

Easy answer.

The Joker
12-13-2009, 02:00 PM
I'm not against taking a QB next year at all, but it's clearly not our main issue on offense right now.

Any time we run the ball and convert on 3rd/4th and 1, it's a surprise to me.

Any offense that can't pick up a yard on the ground when they need it more often than not is going to struggle, and that's on the interior O-Line the RB and FB.

I really hope Larsen is OK, Hillis more or less sucks as a lead blocker.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:01 PM
Anybody pointing anywhere BUT QB first on this list is a friggin tard.

1. Orton - Marshall accounted for 21 of the 29 completions Orton had, also 200 of his 277 yards. If you are a sane, knowledgeable fan, you understand that defenses try to stop what you're having success with... so in this case, Bmarsh is exploding, they are probably rolling coverage, matching up 2 or 3 guys to his area to hold him down. Reasonably, this would open up other WR's for one on one coverages and big plays... I think I remember Eddie Royal being a 100 catch WR last season? Right? Well, if that's the case, why didn't this offense have any big plays with those other guys especially considering how banged up the Colts secondary was? Well, it's quite simple. Orton sucks. The other 8 passes were screen plays. His arm is weak, he can't run, and he doesn't trust himself throwing to a WR's unless they are BMarsh or 5 yds open.

The correct answer to this thread is CHANGE THE QB. We need somebody who is dynamic and gives us a chance to succeed, no matter the odds. Ideally that QB would also have an NFL arm and could move a little. I don't think I'm asking too much if I required a little pocket awareness as well.

Orton is a gritty QB but largely average across the board. He's good enough when paired with a great defense to win games for you. Most NFL QB's can. He won't be winning many playoff games and won't get to the super bowl.

2. Play calling/game planning: I love the stretch play against a speed defense, combined with a slow HB. Awesome. Will work every time. This was one of the most poorly called offensive games this year. It's highlighted by the fact that Brandon had what, his first catch with 17 seconds left to go in the first quarter. How bout we get our best players going first and then work in the wrinkles. Football really isn't as hard as the playcalling made it look in the 1st quarter.

3. Interior line: We want to be physical but we're really finesse. It's not going to change overnight and there are many offensive linemen who can fit the mold of what we need. We just need to commit to drafting or signing a few of them each year. LG has been a blackhole in our offense. Hochstein had a Ben Hamilton like day today.

4. Help at HB: Knowshon is a solid player, not the solo answer. McDaniels used him like a workhorse and he did not respond. Yes, this ties into run blocking as well however, he just does not have the drive to push through 1st defenders. He would work much better with a player in the backfield with him. Buckhalter is serviceable but hardly the long term answer. We need to find somebody who has unique skills for this offense but also can do something different vs. Moreno. I would suggest a speed back although I like the kid from Mississippi State this year as well, i think his name is Dixon. He's a good player.Classic. In what world is 21-29 for 277 anything but a very good day?

Lolad
12-13-2009, 02:01 PM
If we try Moreno up the middle on 4th and short again this year, I'm gonna put a bullet in my head.

get that bullet ready because McDaniels is a stubborn son of a bitch :rofl:

RhymesayersDU
12-13-2009, 02:02 PM
****. That.

Yeah, Denver's in a position to acquire an elite talent in a deep draft, picking much higher than their own record would allow, and they should trade back to take what's normally a non-1st round position.

Yeah this board is obsessed with getting out of the top 10. Everybody it seems wants to trade down.

I can appreciate the economic issues of committing a ton of money to a Top-10 pick, you see players like JaMarcus Russell, etc, get paid boatloads of money and suck it up on the field... But at some point, whether we draft a QB or other position, we are going to have to roll the dice and try to acquire a top talent in the draft. We simply cannot trade back every year.

TonyR
12-13-2009, 02:03 PM
****. That.

Yeah, Denver's in a position to acquire an elite talent in a deep draft, picking much higher than their own record would allow, and they should trade back to take what's normally a non-1st round position.

Agree. You don't use your 1 on a G or C. Get those players in FA or later in the draft. Use the 1 to get a D front 7 unless a QB you love falls in your lap.

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:03 PM
x-defenders

..X
XOX...............XO....................O

Marshall............Shef.................Any Wr

I wonder which reciever Orton would have thrown to in this game?

F'N CLASSIC. Thank you for posting this. Unfortunately the art of x's and o's are lost on most stat readers that post on this forum.

RhymesayersDU
12-13-2009, 02:03 PM
Classic. In what world is 21-29 for 277 anything but a very good day?

Stat wise you're right, but don't you think the fact that we scored only 16 points, won the turnover battle, and still lost give you concern?

I'm not necessarily saying we need to get rid of Orton. Maybe we can improve around him. But simply looking at individual stats is also dangerous.

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 02:03 PM
I think Den needs no order

1. Upgrades at C and G
2. Need a real QB but, don't expect McD to address it next year.
3. Den needs more game breaking speed at skill positions (I'd like 3 but, settle for 2 more guys added with percy harvin type speed)

colonelbeef
12-13-2009, 02:05 PM
Obviously QB is the #1 weak spot, anybody with half a brain can see this.

Hopefully the Cassel talent overestimation/trade disaster was just a one time mistake, and McDaniels recovers with a good pick next year. 1st rounder has to be a QB, and he cannot afford to **** it up

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:05 PM
Classic. In what world is 21-29 for 277 anything but a very good day?

Don't you know? Orton is the anchor around this teams neck. He's single handedly keeping us from the end zone.

Man. If we get some monster blockers at center and left guard we are going to have a scary efficient offense next year. We ALWAYS get to 2nd and third and short. But we have a bitch of a time converting. We get that extra yard and we'll just be methodically moving the ball up and down the field.

RhymesayersDU
12-13-2009, 02:06 PM
I think Den needs no order

1. Upgrades at C and G
2. Need a real QB but, don't expect McD to address it next year.
3. Den needs more game breaking speed at skill positions (I'd like 3 but, settle for 2 guys with percy harvin type speed)

I don't know the 40 times or anything, but how much faster is Harvin than Royal? Royal should be close, maybe?

Lolad
12-13-2009, 02:06 PM
x-defenders

..X
XOX...............XO....................O

Marshall............Shef.................Any Wr

I wonder which reciever Orton would have thrown to in this game?

Well I've seen this play and defense. Royal wide open and Orton throws it behind him for a 3 and out to start the 2nd half

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:07 PM
Obviously QB is the #1 weak spot, anybody with half a brain can see this.

Hopefully the Cassel talent overestimation/trade disaster was just a one time mistake, and McDaniels recovers with a good pick next year. 1st rounder has to be a QB, and he cannot afford to **** it ip

Except it's not the biggest weak spot.

The interior offensive line is.

Popps bitched for years about the ****tiness of our defensive line and he was right wasn't he?

Why when the offensive line isn't up to the run blocking task we go and blame the QB? This isn't about teams stacking the line. Every team stacks the line on third and fourth and short no matter who the QB is. Until we start converting this offense won't be really dangerous no matter who the **** is the QB.

BroncoDoug
12-13-2009, 02:07 PM
"We" don't do anything. :)

yeah, i was thinking the same thing, unless they are going to sign some of us to play for them, "we" are all just going to continue sitting on our couches and support the team.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:08 PM
Stat wise you're right, but don't you think the fact that we scored only 16 points, won the turnover battle, and still lost give you concern?

I'm not necessarily saying we need to get rid of Orton. Maybe we can improve around him. But simply looking at individual stats is also dangerous.

It's absurd to say that Orton was the problem because he only completed passes to Marshall. Absurd. Along the lines of blaming a running back for running only to left when he's averaging 10yds/carry in that direction.

The issue today was trying to run the ball instead of throwing it to Marshall on every play.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:08 PM
Well I've seen this play and defense. Royal wide open and Orton throws it behind him for a 3 and out to start the 2nd half

Yeah. One of a couple bad throws in the game. God forbid the man isn't perfect. How dare he miss Eddie!

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:08 PM
Classic. In what world is 21-29 for 277 anything but a very good day?

Brandon had a great day. Not Orton. Orton was just like the other slugs on offense. They jumped on his back and let him almost carry the team to the finish line.

As long as Orton is the starting QB, we'll seldom win any playoff games and definitely not a super bowl.

Orton is Plummer-like... only more grittiness was substituted for athletic ability. Both suck as passing QB's and depend on the veil of the play action passing game to protect their obvious shortcomings in that area.

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 02:09 PM
I don't know the 40 times or anything, but how much faster is Harvin than Royal? Royal should be close, maybe?

I'll take 2 more royal's or harvin type speed and a felix jones sproles type back to spell buck and moreno.

Yes I agree QB upgrade would fix most issues but, I'd still like to upgrade overall speed on 0.

enjolras
12-13-2009, 02:10 PM
The line has regressed from last year, particularly Weigemann and Hamilton (who has been replaced).

Weigemann was a huge surprise last year, but he's been unable to sustain it. Teams have figured out that you can just rape the interior part of the line and they've been doing it. Having Harris miss almost the whole season certainly hasn't helped. Polumbus isn't an NFL starter.

Lolad
12-13-2009, 02:12 PM
Yeah. One of a couple bad throws in the game. God forbid the man isn't perfect. How dare he miss Eddie!

Yea just a couple of bad throws. That pick "One of a couple of bad throws in the game" RIGHHHTTT... It didn't effect the game in any way

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:12 PM
Obviously QB is the #1 weak spot, anybody with half a brain can see this.

Hopefully the Cassel talent overestimation/trade disaster was just a one time mistake, and McDaniels recovers with a good pick next year. 1st rounder has to be a QB, and he cannot afford to **** it up
Yes, Orton is the #1 problem if your only concern is showing up McDaniels and lamenting over the loss of Cutler and Shanahan.

However, when it somes to actually improving the team and winning more games, there are much higher priorities than improving QB play.

lex
12-13-2009, 02:13 PM
It's absurd to say that Orton was the problem because he only completed passes to Marshall. Absurd. Along the lines of blaming a running back for running only to left when he's averaging 10yds/carry in that direction.

The issue today was trying to run the ball instead of throwing it to Marshall on every play.

Its not really like saying that. The point that was made that a better QB would take advantage of the attention Marshall requires by exploiting other areas of the field, is a fair one.

TonyR
12-13-2009, 02:13 PM
The line has regressed from last year, particularly Weigemann and Hamilton (who has been replaced).


I somewhat agree, but red zone and short yardage struggles aren't a new thing for this team. It's been going on for a while.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:15 PM
Let's not forget: we just faced the #2 scoring defense in the entire league. They only give up 16 pts per game, literally. Orton, aside from his obviously good looking personal numbers, led the offense to, in theory, 20 pts if you take into account the missed field goal and the extra point that would normally be kicked after a TD.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:15 PM
Brandon had a great day. Not Orton. Orton was just like the other slugs on offense. They jumped on his back and let him almost carry the team to the finish line.

As long as Orton is the starting QB, we'll seldom win any playoff games and definitely not a super bowl.

Orton is Plummer-like... only more grittiness was substituted for athletic ability. Both suck as passing QB's and depend on the veil of the play action passing game to protect their obvious shortcomings in that area.

Did you even see some of the windows he hit to get the ball to Marshall?

Orton is fine. Handle the rush fine. Found guys open and put the ball where he had too. What else do you ****ing want? An 80% completion percentage?

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:15 PM
We can all complain about the OL, and I agree that the interior needs to improve but they're obviously miscast in this offense. So what do you do? Keep trying to jam that square peg into a round hole or do you sacrifice a little to do what this team needs to do to succeed this year?

Besides that the playcalling was stupid. I can't tell you how many stretch plays were ran to the sidelines on this speed defense and we only ran straight forward when it was completely obvious. We also didn't use our best runner in those situations.

A major aspect holding this offense back is McD's arrogance. He's slathered all over this unit. Hillis anybody? ZBS anybody?

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 02:15 PM
I'd prefer this as a minimum O upgrades in 2010

1. Real QB
2. Upgrade C G positions
3. 1 gamebreaker RB/WR

If no QB is taken

1. C G upgrades
2. 1 RB with speed
3. 2 WR's with speed

I hope McD see's O needs plenty of work.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:15 PM
Brandon had a great day. Not Orton. Orton was just like the other slugs on offense. They jumped on his back and let him almost carry the team to the finish line.

As long as Orton is the starting QB, we'll seldom win any playoff games and definitely not a super bowl.

Orton is Plummer-like... only more grittiness was substituted for athletic ability. Both suck as passing QB's and depend on the veil of the play action passing game to protect their obvious shortcomings in that area.That's like saying the Jockey on Secretariat had a great day in the Belmont, but the horse was merely average.:thumbsup:

razorwire77
12-13-2009, 02:15 PM
****. That.

Yeah, Denver's in a position to acquire an elite talent in a deep draft, picking much higher than their own record would allow, and they should trade back to take what's normally a non-1st round position.

Other side of the coin argument. I agree that it if you have a top five talent that slips to 10 or 11 then you would be hard pressed to pass it up. But you trade back, and you get multiple high round picks in a deeply talented draft.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:16 PM
Its not really like saying that. The point that was made that a better QB would take advantage of the attention Marshall requires by exploiting other areas of the field, is a fair one.

Not if they are not getting open. Doesn't matter to me if Marshall is being triple covered. If he's the one still getting open and getting YAC, then you keep going to him until he is no longer getting open.

It wasn't like anyone else was seemingly getting open consistently. I'm sure we would've seen that in replays if it was the case.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:16 PM
Its not really like saying that. The point that was made that a better QB would take advantage of the attention Marshall requires by exploiting other areas of the field, is a fair one.

Not really. Unless you could see guys on other side of the field running wide open with nobody around them. You're making the assumption that they were open and also making the assumption that Orton had a choice to throw to the other receivers which in a lot of those plays was not the case. A lot of those throws it was clear the goal was to get Marshall the ball and there was no other choice.

colonelbeef
12-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Except it's not the biggest weak spot.

The interior offensive line is.

Popps b****ed for years about the ****tiness of our defensive line and he was right wasn't he?

Why when the offensive line isn't up to the run blocking task we go and blame the QB? This isn't about teams stacking the line. Every team stacks the line on third and fourth and short no matter who the QB is. Until we start converting this offense won't be really dangerous no matter who the **** is the QB.

Why is this so hard for some of you numbskulls to understand?

Last year the very same personnel led by jay cutler ran an efficient offense that allowed the least sacks in the league and allowed for a successful running game even though the 7th string rb was starting due to injury after injury to the positon.

Exit cutler, a qb you have to defend the entire field against, and insert Kyle orton- suddenly the offense is worse than the bills and lions and is unable to sustain drives or score touchdowns- even with an upgrade at rb.

Same team. New 1st round rb. Offense is pane of the 3 worst in the league- it's not that hard to figure out what the problem is, and it's not the line.

Orton will dink and dunk the stats to respectability, but it's just fluff. No chances taken, no big play ability, cannot avoid ruahers, never feels the pressure- Kyle Orton is a marble statue when pressured, and this will never change.

QB needs to be upgraded. It's a shame that Nolan's defense is being wasted.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Its not really like saying that. The point that was made that a better QB would take advantage of the attention Marshall requires by exploiting other areas of the field, is a fair one.
That's operating on a GIANT ASSumption that anyone else was getting open. ASSUme away though, it's your fortay.

oubronco
12-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Did you even see some of the windows he hit to get the ball to Marshall?

Orton is fine. Handle the rush fine. Found guys open and put the ball where he had too. What else do you ****ing want? An 80% completion percentage?

that would rock :approve:

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:19 PM
Did you even see some of the windows he hit to get the ball to Marshall?

Orton is fine. Handle the rush fine. Found guys open and put the ball where he had too. What else do you ****ing want? An 80% completion percentage?

I just think it's funny how some of you look at a stat chart and throw up your hands and say, NOTHING WRONG here!

This offense completely wasted a good effort by our defense that held Indy scoreless from quarter 2-4 until the end. The only brightspot about this game was Marshall and even that was tainted when you consider his first catch came seconds before the start of the 2nd quarter.

Orton apologists will spin things to read whatever they want. If you can't understand how screwed up this offense is, and why that is the situation means you don't understand basic football 101.

No use in me preaching anymore. Great game by Marshall. Almost single-handedly won the game for us.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:19 PM
As long as Orton is the starting QB, we'll seldom win any playoff games and definitely not a super bowl.

You do realize that Orton is currently 4-2 this season against teams currently slated to be playing in the playoffs, don't you?

Broncos4tw
12-13-2009, 02:20 PM
Orton will probably not be winning a SB any time soon. So if you want your team to win a SB, you be wanting a new QB, simple as that.

Numbers don't mean crap unless some of them represent situations where we had to make a big play, and the QB did it. Failure on third repeatedly. Horrible passes into triple coverage. If not for Marshall's ability, it would have been much worse today.

I was actually stunned when he escaped from TWO potential sack situations. Unfortunately, that was the bulk of his "excellent" play.

He calls audibles how often? Never. Weak or non-existent scrambling, poor decisions, critical picks or fumbles, he locks into one receiver and that's that. You really think Royal just suddenly started sucking so badly?


We have other issues as well. And the continued running with Moreno was mind-boggling, in a bad sort of way. You can't put a fresh QB for ONE PLAY and then say "oh.. well he sucks."

Also agree play calling was weak.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-13-2009, 02:22 PM
Other side of the coin argument. I agree that it if you have a top five talent that slips to 10 or 11 then you would be hard pressed to pass it up. But you trade back, and you get multiple high round picks in a deeply talented draft.

I've got no problem with a tradeback. In fact at this point being 5 months away and not having everyone declare or stay in, I'd hope they trade back if G McCoy and McClain weren't there. My issue is using that 1st round pick on a guard. Take it was the 2nd or 3rd, but **** using a 1st round pick on a guard.

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:22 PM
Why is this so hard for some of you numbskulls to understand?

Last year the very same personnel led by jay cutler ran an efficient offense that allowed the least sacks in the league and allowed for a successful running game even though the 7th string rb was starting due to injury after injury to the positon.

Exit cutler, a qb you have to defend the entire field against, and insert Kyle orton- suddenly the offense is worse than the bills and lions and is unable to sustain drives or score touchdowns- even with an upgrade at rb.

Same team. New 1st round rb. Offense is pane of the 3 worst in the league- it's not that hard to figure out what the problem is, and it's not the line.

Orton will dink and dunk the stats to respectability, but it's just fluff. No chances taken, no big play ability, cannot avoid ruahers, never feels the pressure- Kyle Orton is a marble statue when pressured, and this will never change.

QB needs to be upgraded. It's a shame that Nolan's defense is being wasted.

No use bud, these are the same people that defended Griese with his sparkling QB rating. Yet we still were average at best and disappeared against the good teams.

Orton = Big hole in Denver offense

BTW, don't bring up the fact that the offensive line looked amazing last year. You'll get lynched around these parts.

cabronco
12-13-2009, 02:22 PM
Obviously QB is the #1 weak spot, anybody with half a brain can see this.

Hopefully the Cassel talent overestimation/trade disaster was just a one time mistake, and McDaniels recovers with a good pick next year. 1st rounder has to be a QB, and he cannot afford to **** it up

^^^^^^^
This Qb #1, Orton would make a serviceable back up if he chose to..

O-line & D-line w/ other picks.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:23 PM
Brandon had a great day. Not Orton. Orton was just like the other slugs on offense. They jumped on his back and let him almost carry the team to the finish line.

As long as Orton is the starting QB, we'll seldom win any playoff games and definitely not a super bowl.

Orton is Plummer-like... only more grittiness was substituted for athletic ability. Both suck as passing QB's and depend on the veil of the play action passing game to protect their obvious shortcomings in that area.I'd take Jake any day over Orton. Jake didn't have a cannon like Jay...but he could still get the ball deep and he could still make plays to beat teams. Orton is not in his league.

Orton = Greise

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:23 PM
Why is this so hard for some of you numbskulls to understand?

Last year the very same personnel led by jay cutler ran an efficient offense that allowed the least sacks in the league and allowed for a successful running game even though the 7th string rb was starting due to injury after injury to the positon.

Exit cutler, a qb you have to defend the entire field against, and insert Kyle orton- suddenly the offense is worse than the bills and lions and is unable to sustain drives or score touchdowns- even with an upgrade at rb.

Same team. New 1st round rb. Offense is pane of the 3 worst in the league- it's not that hard to figure out what the problem is, and it's not the line.

Orton will dink and dunk the stats to respectability, but it's just fluff. No chances taken, no big play ability, cannot avoid ruahers, never feels the pressure- Kyle Orton is a marble statue when pressured, and this will never change.

QB needs to be upgraded. It's a shame that Nolan's defense is being wasted.

Exit Cutler, and we're going to make the playoffs.:wave:

TonyR
12-13-2009, 02:23 PM
The only brightspot about this game was Marshall and even that was tainted when you consider his first catch came seconds before the start of the 2nd quarter.


How does that taint BM's accomplishment in any way? <confused>

outdoor_miner
12-13-2009, 02:25 PM
The only brightspot about this game was Marshall and even that was tainted when you consider his first catch came seconds before the start of the 2nd quarter.

:notworthy

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:25 PM
Last year the very same personnel led by jay cutler ran an efficient offense that allowed the least sacks in the league and allowed for a successful running game even though the 7th string rb was starting due to injury after injury to the positon.

Same team. New 1st round rb. Offense is pane of the 3 worst in the league- it's not that hard to figure out what the problem is, and it's not the line.

Injury at right tackle. New coach and new system. You are ignoring a lot of variables here.

And did you not watch the line today? How anyone could watch the line today and say they looked fine is either blind, insane, or doesn't know a thing about football.


Orton will dink and dunk the stats to respectability, but it's just fluff. No chances taken, no big play ability,

Someone missed the Washington game.

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:27 PM
You do realize that Orton is currently 4-2 this season against teams currently slated to be playing in the playoffs, don't you?

What's the defenses' records in those game? It sounds like Orton is playing games by himself, no?

Dallas win, Marshall 51 yd catch and RUN. How much did Orton do there? Oh yeah, he was a warm body trailing 15 yds on the play as Marshall made half the cowboys defense miss.

SD win, Eddie Royal, 2 special teams touchdowns keep us in it in the 1st half. If not, we're getting blown out going into the half.

NE win, defense holds Brady to 3 pts after halftime. Denver scrapes together enough points to put the game in OT.

Do you seriously want to give Orton all the credit for the Cincy hail mary too? Hell, he almost fugged that up, he underthrew the ball by 6 yards but a Bengals defender tipped it right to Stokely.

Misleading, stupid facts there that show nothing but the average of Orton. Defense has carried this team to a potential playoff appearance this season. Orton has done nothing but waste that... evidence by the Baltimore, Pittsburgh, SD, and Indy games.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:28 PM
You do realize that Orton is currently 4-2 this season against teams currently slated to be playing in the playoffs, don't you?He should kiss his defenses ass and thank his running game. That's the only way he wins (period).

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:30 PM
How does that taint BM's accomplishment in any way? <confused>

Do I really have to explain it to you?

Well if BMarsh had 21 catches over 3 quarters and 17 seconds, what does his game look like if he was thrown to in the 1st quarter?

Holy crap. The game passes some of you by, doesn't it?

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:30 PM
He should kiss his defenses ass and thank his running game. That's the only way he wins (period).

Just like Cutler is winning with that same bear's defense in Chcago? Yay, fanboy!

Bronx33
12-13-2009, 02:31 PM
This should help motivate the OL to block better.

http://www.stunguninformation.com/files/HistoryofStunGuns/Big%20New%20Cattle%20Prod.jpg

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:31 PM
Why is this so hard for some of you numbskulls to understand?

Last year the very same personnel led by jay cutler ran an efficient offense that allowed the least sacks in the league and allowed for a successful running game even though the 7th string rb was starting due to injury after injury to the positon.

And we couldn't do **** in the red zone. Orton moves the ball just fine between the 20's. Our running game was strictly the ZBS and also couldn't do **** in short yardage.

Exit cutler, a qb you have to defend the entire field against, and insert Kyle orton- suddenly the offense is worse than the bills and lions and is unable to sustain drives or score touchdowns- even with an upgrade at rb.

Same team. New 1st round rb. Offense is pane of the 3 worst in the league- it's not that hard to figure out what the problem is, and it's not the line.

We're not the worst in the league. We're right around the middle. Average. Just like last year as far as production goes. Against a much stronger schedule. Same team. Same problem. Can't run in the red zone. Can't get the short yardage.

Orton will dink and dunk the stats to respectability, but it's just fluff. No chances taken, no big play ability, cannot avoid ruahers, never feels the pressure- Kyle Orton is a marble statue when pressured, and this will never change.

Orton was fine under pressure today. Avoided sacks and left the pocket when he had to. You're just making stuff up here because it sounds good.

Dink and dunk works. Haven't you watched the last few weeks? Orton can throw deep and we have. Why didn't we today? Because the Colts have a fast defense and keep two guys deep. You can't go deep on them unless you have a huge fast WR to go up and get it. Marshall is big but he isn't fast.

QB needs to be upgraded. It's a shame that Nolan's defense is being wasted.

Sorry but it's the same thing as last year. Can't get the short running yardage. That's where drives are sustained and red zone touch downs are made. We can't do it very well. We'll struggle until we can. It's that simple.

We haven't been good at short yardage since Plummer was here. And surprise surprise the offense hasn't been above average since Plummer was here. Are you going to argue Plummer was a great passing QB that teams had to defend the entire field against?

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:31 PM
Exit Cutler, and we're going to make the playoffs.:wave:You know folks like you are idiots. The reason this team is going to the playoffs is because of the defense. Our offense is ranked in the 20's. Our offense last year was 2nd in the NFL.

Our success this season has very little to do with Kyle Orton.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Sorry but it's the same thing as last year. Can't get the short running yardage. That's where drives are sustained and red zone touch downs are made. We can't do it very well. We'll struggle until we can. It's that simple.

We haven't been good at short yardage since Plummer was here. And surprise surprise the offense hasn't been above average since Plummer was here. Are you going to argue Plummer was a great passing QB that teams had to defend the entire field against?If you don't think our offense was good last year....you're a pretty stupid son of a gun. Please tell me how this years offense is better than last years?

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:35 PM
Just like Cutler is winning with that same bear's defense in Chcago? Yay, fanboy!Is that all you can do...is try and compare Orton to Cutler's poor season?

Orton sucks. It's idiots like you who love medicoracy who debate that.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:35 PM
If you don't think our offense was good last year....you're a pretty stupid son of a gun. Please tell me how this years offense is better than last years?
Time of possession for one.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:37 PM
What's the defenses' records in those game? It sounds like Orton is playing games by himself, no?

Dallas win, Marshall 51 yd catch and RUN. How much did Orton do there? Oh yeah, he was a warm body trailing 15 yds on the play as Marshall made half the cowboys defense miss. .

What? The statement is made that we can't win in the playoffs with Orton, and I pointed out that we have already beaten 4 teams that will likely be opponents in the playoffs. What does the defense have to do with it? We would still have that very same defense to support Orton in the playoffs, right? So he'd still be able to lead us to victory again, right?

It's not like Orton is 0-6 against potential playoff teams. He's 4-2.

SD win, Eddie Royal, 2 special teams touchdowns keep us in it in the 1st half. If not, we're getting blown out going into the half.

SD also had a return. And the defense played bad that day. Still want to talk them up? You seem to be playing both sides of the fence now.

NE win, defense holds Brady to 3 pts after halftime. Denver scrapes together enough points to put the game in OT..

What about the first half? Funny how you don't mention that. And this was an INCREDIBLE game by Orton in crunch time. I can't believe you even brought it up.

Do you seriously want to give Orton all the credit on the hail mary too?


What hail mary? He's thrown one all year and it was his first INT of the season. All of the throws in Washington were good, planned deep passes but they were not hail mary's.

Misleading, stupid facts there that show nothing but the average of Orton. Defense has carried this team to a potential playoff appearance this season. Orton has done nothing but waste that... evidence by the Baltimore, Pittsburgh, SD, and Indy games.

Indy gives up 16 pts per game. Orton just led us to 20 pts in scoring opportunities (not counting the EZ pick drive). Seems to me he was above average today in a loss.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:37 PM
Time of possession for one.Time of possession? What....you're bragging about our ability to drive the ball 70yds to turn it over...This team isn't any better at scoring than last year's team and at least last year's offense was feared.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:39 PM
He should kiss his defenses ass and thank his running game. That's the only way he wins (period).

Go watch the Pats game in particular and tell me he can't lead this team to victory.

yerner
12-13-2009, 02:40 PM
I like orton. He's won me over with his leadership and steady play. still, he is not someone that teams have to worry about beating them. He rarely makes plays that change games. Today his accuracy smothered some drives. If anything needs to change I think its the passing game being more threating.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:41 PM
Go watch the Pats game in particular and tell me he can't lead this team to victory.I know you really don't believe that Kyle Orton can bring this team a championship...do you?

Peyton Manning threw 3int's today. This was the first time he has ever thrown 3 picks and won the game. Why is that?

Becasue Kyle Orton could not take advantage of those oppurtunities. He's a one dimensional dink or dunk QB.

This team will only go as far as our defense can take us.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:42 PM
Is that all you can do...is try and compare Orton to Cutler's poor season?

Orton sucks. It's idiots like you who love medicoracy who debate that.

You're the one who started the "this offense with Cutler theme", or does your memory not go back that far?

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:42 PM
What? The statement is made that we can't win in the playoffs with Orton, and I pointed out that we have already beaten 4 teams that will likely be opponents in the playoffs. What does the defense have to do with it? We would still have that very same defense to support Orton in the playoffs, right? So he'd still be able to lead us to victory again, right?

It's not like Orton is 0-6 against potential playoff teams. He's 4-2.



SD also had a return. And the defense played bad that day. Still want to talk them up? You seem to be playing both sides of the fence now.



What about the first half? Funny how you don't mention that. And this was an INCREDIBLE game by Orton in crunch time. I can't believe you even brought it up.



What hail mary? He's thrown one all year and it was his first INT of the season. All of the throws in Washington were good, planned deep passes but they were not hail mary's.



Indy gives up 16 pts per game. Orton just led us to 20 pts in scoring opportunities (not counting the EZ pick drive). Seems to me he was above average today in a loss.

I could give reasons for all your preposterous answers but you would just spin out 54 more. If you can't understand what you're watching, it's hard for me to educate you on anything.

BTW, how many DB's were out for today's game? Didn't Royal have 100 catches last season? What happened to him? Is he on the back of a milk carton or is Kyle Orton his QB?

dsmoot
12-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Sorry but it's the same thing as last year. Can't get the short running yardage. That's where drives are sustained and red zone touch downs are made. We can't do it very well. We'll struggle until we can. It's that simple.

We haven't been good at short yardage since Plummer was here. And surprise surprise the offense hasn't been above average since Plummer was here. Are you going to argue Plummer was a great passing QB that teams had to defend the entire field against?

We were somewhat better at short yardage with Plummer but nothing like the late 90's. With Plummer, defenses were stacking the box with 8 and daring Plummer to beat them. Our running game was very successful inside the 20's during the Plummer era. Our running game suffered greatly in the red zone.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Time of possession? What....you're bragging about our ability to drive the ball 70yds to turn it over...This team isn't any better at scoring than last year's team and at least last year's offense was feared.

No. I'm bragging about an ability to sustain drives, and manage an offense.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:43 PM
You're the one who started the "this offense with Cutler theme", or does your memory not go back that far?I din't mention a darn thing about Cutler...scitzo!

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:44 PM
If you don't think our offense was good last year....you're a pretty stupid son of a gun. Please tell me how this years offense is better than last years?

I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's the exact same.

And our offense last year wasn't good. If I recall our ranking in points scored was 16th. Cutler racked up big yardage between the 20's with his risky throws into coverage but it fell apart in the red zone when we couldn't run it and couldn't pass it because the field got smaller.

We fix the run game in short yardage and Orton will move the ball just as efficiently (something he's doing well at already between the 20's) and we'll score more touchdowns without the turnovers of Cutler.

I'll say it again. Our offense last year wasn't good. It was average at best. I could even argue it's worse than this years offense. This years offense doesn't turn the ball over 3 times a game.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:45 PM
No. I'm bragging about an ability to sustain drives, and manage an offense.O.K., I guess we win the award for most 3 and outs in the NFL. Way to manage a game.

Hey...we won't throw any int's or fumble the ball...we'll just give it right back to them...over and over and over again.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:46 PM
Time of possession? What....you're bragging about our ability to drive the ball 70yds to turn it over...This team isn't any better at scoring than last year's team and at least last year's offense was feared.

No it wasn't. Not after the first three games.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:46 PM
I know you really don't believe that Kyle Orton can bring this team a championship...do you?



I do. At least 4 rings in the last 10 years were by QBs that performed no better than Orton is capable of.

Brady's first.
Big Ben's two.
Eli.

Peyton Manning threw 3int's today. This was the first time he has ever thrown 3 picks and won the game. Why is that?

Becasue Kyle Orton could not take advantage of those oppurtunities. He's a one dimensional dink or dunk QB.

Couldn't have anything to do with facing the #2 ranked scoring defense, now could it? And how is it Orton's fault that the running game was terrible today?

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:47 PM
What's pathetic is...we'll win 2 of the next 3 games and be in the playoffs and all you smart guys will be rallying around Orton....waving your pom-poms and crying to have him back for more.

Man, I can't wait. So, how many picks does Orton throw in the playoffs?

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:47 PM
You know folks like you are idiots. The reason this team is going to the playoffs is because of the defense. Our offense is ranked in the 20's. Our offense last year was 2nd in the NFL.

I love how you are using the yardage rankings and not the points scored rankings. That's telling.

broncolife
12-13-2009, 02:47 PM
Time of possession? What....you're bragging about our ability to drive the ball 70yds to turn it over...This team isn't any better at scoring than last year's team and at least last year's offense was feared.

And they didnt have all these Defensive Opportunies that it gives to our current O

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:48 PM
We were somewhat better at short yardage with Plummer but nothing like the late 90's. With Plummer, defenses were stacking the box with 8 and daring Plummer to beat them. Our running game was very successful inside the 20's during the Plummer era. Our running game suffered greatly in the red zone.

I'm not certain which point you are trying to make. Your statement seems to contradict itself.

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:49 PM
No it wasn't. Not after the first three games.

is that when our HB's started getting hurt and the defense was hemorrhaging?

Cutler made the pro bowl last year.

Orton will never.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:50 PM
I do. At least 4 rings in the last 10 years were by QBs that performed no better than Orton is capable of.

Brady's first.
Big Ben's two.
Eli.



Couldn't have anything to do with facing the #2 ranked scoring defense, now could it? And how is it Orton's fault that the running game was terrible today?

Tom Brady
Big Ben
Eli Manning

Or

Kyle Orton?

Hmmm. Let me think about it for a while. Who would I take?

In regards to the running game. Let me say this one more time. With Kyle Orton at QB. Teams will stack the line, run blitz, take away the run and be in the QB's face all day. Why? Because they don't respect his abilities.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:50 PM
And didnt have all these Defensive Opportunies that it gives to our current O

Irrelevant. When last years offense got it's opportunities it turned the ball over or did nothing with it. It's not like they would have greatly benefited from more opportunities. The failures were the same whether we were in the lead, tied, or behind. March through the 20's. Score on the first drive. Do nothing the rest of the game but turn it over.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:51 PM
I could give reasons for all your preposterous answers but you would just spin out 54 more. If you can't understand what you're watching, it's hard for me to educate you on anything.

In other words, you really don't have rebuttals of merit.

BTW, how many DB's were out for today's game? Didn't Royal have 100 catches last season? What happened to him? Is he on the back of a milk carton or is Kyle Orton his QB?

First you claim to be able to educate me and then you go and blame the QB and the QB alone because one particular WR is not getting anything thrown his way. McD has come out after almost every game this season and has PRAISED Orton for going to his correct reads almost 100% of the time, so obviously Royal is either being doubled or he is not the primary target on the majority of passing plays. He could also just be having a sophomore slump. Orton has NO problems getting it to Gaffney and Marshall, so I am not as comfortable as you in blaming him and only him. Again, like with Hillis, it's not a conspiracy against your boy.

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:51 PM
I do. At least 4 rings in the last 10 years were by QBs that performed no better than Orton is capable of.

Brady's first.
Big Ben's two.
Eli.



Couldn't have anything to do with facing the #2 ranked scoring defense, now could it? And how is it Orton's fault that the running game was terrible today?

WOW. You really have lost it. Comparing Orton's skill set to any of those guys is simply lunacy.

Glad to know your knowledge of the game now at least.

WolfpackGuy
12-13-2009, 02:52 PM
Quit running the ball up the gut in obvious short yardage situations.

Getting stopped multiple times on 3rd and 4th and short absolutely lost this game.

"The Coach" needs to quit being so stubborn.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:52 PM
What's pathetic is...we'll win 2 of the next 3 games and be in the playoffs and all you smart guys will be rallying around Orton....waving your pom-poms and crying to have him back for more.

Man, I can't wait. So, how many picks does Orton throw in the playoffs?

Why would he throw picks? What has he done that makes you think he's an interception machine? You're just moving from one argument to the next until something sticks.

broncolife
12-13-2009, 02:52 PM
Irrelevant. When last years offense got it's opportunities it turned the ball over or did nothing with it. It's not like they would have greatly benefited from more opportunities. The failures were the same whether we were in the lead, tied, or behind. March through the 20's. Score on the first drive. Do nothing the rest of the game but turn it over.

Hows that irrelvant? look at how many of our points came off of turnovers this year.Our D last year probably had one of worst turnover performance ever by a Denver D.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:53 PM
I love how you are using the yardage rankings and not the points scored rankings. That's telling.Use any rankings you want. Last years offense was superior to this years. Will our offense be improved next year. I certainly expect it to be. But, Kyle Orton will never get us to a point where the 2006 Pats were...that's for sure.

We'll just wait ans see...whether McDaniels is willing to write a big check to keep Orton. Sure hasn't happened yet.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:53 PM
Tom Brady
Big Ben
Eli Manning

Or

Kyle Orton?

Hmmm. Let me think about it for a while. Who would I take?


In 2001, I'd take Orton every time. He is playing way better now than Brady was then. And Big Ben in his first SB had a worse game than Orton has ever had in his career. Eli? He was almost cut that year.

In regards to the running game. Let me say this one more time. With Kyle Orton at QB. Teams will stack the line, run blitz, take away the run and be in the QB's face all day. Why? Because they don't respect his abilities.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

I was hoping you'd say this. Didn't stop them the last two weeks.

bpc
12-13-2009, 02:54 PM
In other words, you really don't have rebuttals of merit.



First you claim to be able to educate me and then you go and blame the QB and the QB alone because one particular WR is not getting anything thrown his way. McD has come out after almost every game this season and has PRAISED Orton for going to his correct reads almost 100% of the time, so obviously Royal is either being doubled or he is not the primary target on the majority of passing plays. He could also just be having a sophomore slump. Orton has NO problems getting it to Gaffney and Marshall, so I am not as comfortable as you in blaming him and only him. Again, like with Hillis, it's not a conspiracy against your boy.

Not really. It's pointless to argue with an idiot and I choose not to waste my time.

Why don't you go ahead and compare Orton's skillset to Tom Brady, Ben Rothlisberger and Eli Manning so we can all understand the depths of your stupidity.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:54 PM
O.K., I guess we win the award for most 3 and outs in the NFL. Way to manage a game.


No, that was last year. Hit or miss on big play attempts. Either way, the defense is right back on the field. Zero ability to own the clock.

Dedhed
12-13-2009, 02:55 PM
Tom Brady
In regards to the running game. Let me say this one more time. With Kyle Orton at QB. Teams will stack the line, run blitz, take away the run and be in the QB's face all day. Why? Because they don't respect his abilities.

Is that so hard for you to understand?
So how do explain the last couple of weeks?

We got stuck in a poor game plan today. Get over it.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:55 PM
is that when our HB's started getting hurt and the defense was hemorrhaging?

Cutler made the pro bowl last year.

Orton will never.

Our defense was **** from the start and we still scored points. Oh yeah that was against equally ****ty defenses. Face it. Our offense wasn't good. Cutler went to the Pro Bowl because of his yardage and the expectation that he was an up and coming star. Derek Anderson went to the Pro Bowl too you know.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:55 PM
In 2001, I'd take Orton every time. He is playing way better now than Brady was then. And Big Ben in his first SB had a worse game than Orton has ever had in his career. Eli? He was almost cut that year.



I was hoping you'd say this. Didn't stop them the last two weeks.

That's becasue they were playing weak teams. You're the same one that will be waiving your banners for Orton next week when we play the lowly Chiefs.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:56 PM
WOW. You really have lost it. Comparing Orton's skill set to any of those guys is simply lunacy.

Glad to know your knowledge of the game now at least.

You're seriously telling me that if Orton was the QB of any of those teams that they wouldn't have probably made the SB? Really?

Glad to know YOUR knowledge of the game now at least.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 02:57 PM
That's becasue they were playing weak teams. You're the same one that will be waiving your banners for Orton next week when we play the lowly Chiefs.

I will waive my banner for Orton every week because he's a Bronco and he gives us the best chance to win at QB of anyone since pre-injury Griese.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:57 PM
So how do explain the last couple of weeks?

We got stuck in a poor game plan today. Get over it.Alright, here's the deal. We have one more tough game on the schedule. That's against he Eagles.

Will Kyle Orton get us a win in Phili?

elsid13
12-13-2009, 02:58 PM
Orton had a good game, but his lack of mobility hurt us on a number of plays today. I know the interior line needs to get better, but it would be nice if we had QB that could get to the edge once and awhile on a roll out to help. Add in the fact, that you need to the TE involved against a Tampa -2 team this very frustrating day. Add btw can we ditch the run out of the Shotgun that play doesn't work.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Hows that irrelvant? look at how many of our points came off of turnovers this year.Our D last year probably had one of worst turnover performance ever by a Denver D.

You look at what they did consistently. What they did was consistently turn the ball over. Everybody claiming we had a great offense last year only looks at the yards. The problem is that the source of the yards was also a major source of the turnovers and failures.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 02:59 PM
I will waive my banner for Orton every week because he's a Bronco and he gives us the best chance to win at QB of anyone since pre-injury Griese.I'll root for the geak myself. Just like I did Griese...but I won't kid myself about his abilities. I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best. But, I'll hope and pray we come up with a better plan at QB next year....than Kyle Orton.

Hamrob
12-13-2009, 03:02 PM
I've got to run. I respect that many of you really do like Orton as our QB. It's mystifying to me...but, I'll get over it.

And hopefully, we'll get a better signal caller soon.

Good night all!

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:03 PM
Not really. It's pointless to argue with an idiot and I choose not to waste my time.


If that were really true, by definition, you'd never post here. Only possible explanation is that you have no real rebuttal.

Why don't you go ahead and compare Orton's skillset to Tom Brady, Ben Rothlisberger and Eli Manning so we can all understand the depths of your stupidity.

2001 Tom Brady? Way different player than veteran Brady. He was the definition of dink and dunk and let the defense and special teams take over. And it worked. There were several reports that came out around that time about his limitations (and one detailed QB coach report that was particularly damning - reads defenses slow, slow in pocket, slow in decisions, etc. )

Big Ben? Did you watch him during that first SB run and particularly in that game? He was not the special player that he has shown the last few years.

And Eli? Where do I begin? Nothing special about his game at all. He can maybe go deeper with more consistency than Orton, but that's it.

Orton has already outplayed two of these guys in head to head battles this year. That's all I need.

Dagmar
12-13-2009, 03:04 PM
No, that was last year. Hit or miss on big play attempts. Either way, the defense is right back on the field. Zero ability to own the clock.

It's hilariouse how everyone else is an idiot but you are not. It seems when a reasonable argument is sent your way the poster is an idiot.

Well done.


Very well done.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 03:06 PM
If that were really true, by definition, you'd never post here. Only possible explanation is that you have no real rebuttal.



2001 Tom Brady? Way different player than veteran Brady. He was the definition of dink and dunk and let the defense and special teams take over. And it worked. There were several reports that came out around that time about his limitations (and one detailed QB coach report that was particularly damning - reads defenses slow, slow in pocket, slow in decisions, etc. )

Big Ben? Did you watch him during that first SB run and particularly in that game? He was not the special player that he has shown the last few years.

And Eli? Where do I begin? Nothing special about his game at all. He can maybe go deeper with more consistency than Orton, but that's it.

Orton has already outplayed two of these guys in head to head battles this year. That's all I need.

Works for me too.

But of course that's just not good enough for those who want a big flashy arm at QB. I guess we'll just have to go and blow it all up and draft another new QB. We'll replace a hard working, smart, well liked, and well respected QB who is also a team leader (and a winner) with some new kid with an arm. That should go over well. Really inspire the veteran troops. Worked like a charm last time didn't it?

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:07 PM
Orton had a good game, but his lack of mobility hurt us on a number of plays today. I know the interior line needs to get better, but it would be nice if we had QB that could get to the edge once and awhile on a roll out to help.

I agree with this. It is the one aspect of his game that bugs me and, unlike the deep passing game, there's really no way to improve it.

broncolife
12-13-2009, 03:09 PM
You look at what they did consistently. What they did was consistently turn the ball over. Everybody claiming we had a great offense last year only looks at the yards. The problem is that the source of the yards was also a major source of the turnovers and failures.

What if we could insert our current O into last years team. Do you think we even win half the games we did?

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:12 PM
What if we could insert our current O into last years team. Do you think we even win half the games we did?

They would maybe lose the first SD game and NO game but the second Oakland game and Bills game might turn into wins.

lex
12-13-2009, 03:15 PM
They would maybe lose the first SD game and NO game but the second Oakland game and Bills game might turn into wins.

Dont forget the Browns, Jets, and Falcons games.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 03:15 PM
I've got to run. I respect that many of you really do like Orton as our QB. It's mystifying to me...but, I'll get over it.

And hopefully, we'll get a better signal caller soon.

Good night all!

Don't kid yourself. We'd all love to have Manning or Brady at the helm. But we don't. Only a couple teams at any given time get to have guys like that.

We see Orton as a very capable and smart guy who wins football games.

We have a good defense and an average offense. We can improve both of those quite easily with picks along the offensive and defensive lines. A new QB won't do anything for us though. Not for a couple of years. I'd much rather have a developed defense and strong offensive line with a new QB in a few years than the other way around. And I don't want to go through another 2006 where the veterans mail it in because the coach went out and in their eyes inexplicably tried to replace a winning veteran QB who is well liked and respected. We pick a new QB and McDaniels is basically saying, sorry guys, it's going to be a few years.

Why do that when we can develop the defense and surrounding talent further and compete with the solid consistency of Orton and in a year or two Brandstater can take over or McDaniels can get a shiny rookie QB to play. A shiny rookie QB to play with a strong defense and strong offensive support around him. What sounds like a better recipe for success?

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 03:17 PM
What if we could insert our current O into last years team. Do you think we even win half the games we did?

Yes.

We wouldn't have turned the ball over so much to allow so many easy TD's.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:18 PM
Dont forget the Browns, Jets, and Falcons games.

Browns game reminded me a lot of this year's Pats game. I don't see why Orton couldn't have pulled that one out.

And the Jets game was 100% Hillis.

I honestly don't remember much about the Falcons game specifically. I could look at the stats and try to pretend, but that would be a cop-out.

Either way, saying we wouldn't win 4 games with Orton last year is just silly I think.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 03:24 PM
Browns game reminded me a lot of this year's Pats game. I don't see why Orton couldn't have pulled that one out.

And the Jets game was 100% Hillis.

I honestly don't remember much about the Falcons game specifically. I could look at the stats and try to pretend, but that would be a cop-out.

Either way, saying we wouldn't win 4 games with Orton last year is just silly I think.

I think we would have won the same number. The only difference would have been who we would have beat.

Would have swept Oakland and KC. Would have beaten the Bills. There's three more right there.

lex
12-13-2009, 03:29 PM
Browns game reminded me a lot of this year's Pats game. I don't see why Orton couldn't have pulled that one out.

Was this only about the QB? Because, theoretically, this offense should be better than last year with a lot of young talent having a year under its belt. Besides, we were required to score more than 30 points that game...just like we were in the Saints and Chargers games, which you also mentioned.

And the Jets game was 100% Hillis.

So? Are you saying they should be using Hillis more this year? A lot of people would agree with you.

I honestly don't remember much about the Falcons game specifically. I could look at the stats and try to pretend, but that would be a cop-out.

The Falcons were a nice well balanced team last year that we defeated on the road by scoring some points. Hillis was also prominant in that game. He made a really nice catch along the sidelines staying in bounds but then after the catch, he broke a tacke and got a first down. It was a great play. And then there was a 3rd and short where someone had a crack at taking Hillis down in the backfield only for him to break a tackle like it was nothing and get the first down.


Either way, saying we wouldn't win 4 games with Orton last year is just silly I think.

Is it Orton or more than that? Because, again, with fewer turnovers this year and getting more turnovers on defense, we're actually getting far fewer points on offense. And last year we had a lot of young talent on offense beyond Cutler. Theoretically, we should be a lot better this year--but we're not.



In bold

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 03:35 PM
The offense scored big in the first three weeks. After that it wasn't hard to shut us down. Anybody with half a defense could.

The offenses are pretty much the same. We're throwing less and running more than last year by a lot. That's why we don't move the ball as quickly. But scoring is pretty much the same.

Like many of us have been saying it's on the line. It doesn't matter how much experience our talented receivers have when the RB gets the ball and has nowhere to run. It doesn't matter who the QB is when the RB gets met in the backfield. We get near the red zone and suddenly guys can't get as open and we can't run the ball.

It's not hard. Until we can become a dominant running team and can run in the red zone we won't be above average in offensive scoring.

TonyR
12-13-2009, 03:36 PM
Do I really have to explain it to you?

Well if BMarsh had 21 catches over 3 quarters and 17 seconds, what does his game look like if he was thrown to in the 1st quarter?

Holy crap. The game passes some of you by, doesn't it?

21 catches or 50 he broke the record. I'm thinking you don't understand the meaning of the word "taint". You're just trying to find something to bitch about as usual. "Yes he did a great job but it could have been even better!" What a loser mentality.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 03:40 PM
And here's another thing. Everybody thinks we need an elite QB to run this offense and cite Cutler's ability to move the ball so well. Well that's just not going to happen.

For all of his failings Cutler was and is physically the best QB in the league. He could dominate between the 20's with his risky play but is too dumb and dangerous for the red zone.

You guys bashing Orton seem to be asking for a guy with Cutler's body and Orton's brain. The last guy who had that was Elway.

Sometimes you need to accept what you have. We have a tough, smart, and physically capable QB who wins games. Who honestly thinks it will be easier to find an upgrade for that compared to finding better guys for our offensive and defensive lines than what we already have?

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:41 PM
Was this only about the QB? Because, theoretically, this offense should be better than last year with a lot of young talent having a year under its belt. Besides, we were required to score more than 30 points that game...just like we were in the Saints and Chargers games, which you also mentioned.

lex:

I was simply responding to the "would we have one even half the games in 2008 if Orton was the QB?" post.

So? Are you saying they should be using Hillis more this year? A lot of people would agree with you.

By definition, it would be almost impossible to use him any less.

The Falcons were a nice well balanced team last year that we defeated on the road by scoring some points. Hillis was also prominant in that game. He made a really nice catch along the sidelines staying in bounds but then after the catch, he broke a tacke and got a first down. It was a great play. And then there was a 3rd and short where someone had a crack at taking Hillis down in the backfield only for him to break a tackle like it was nothing and get the first down.

Again, this was a response to the post about us not getting to even 4 wins with Orton instead of Cutler. I was saying that I don't remember Cutler doing anything that game that Orton couldn't be reasonably expected to do.

Is it Orton or more than that? Because, again, with fewer turnovers this year and getting more turnovers on defense, we're actually getting far fewer points on offense. And last year we had a lot of young talent on offense beyond Cutler. Theoretically, we should be a lot better this year--but we're not.


Too many variables with the new coaching, new system, etc.

bpc
12-13-2009, 03:41 PM
21 catches or 50 he broke the record. I'm thinking you don't understand the meaning of the word "taint". You're just trying to find something to b**** about as usual. "Yes he did a great job but it could have been even better!" What a loser mentality.

Yeah, I'm bitching about losing the game. See, we didn't do **** our first 3 drives, which coincided with Marshall not being schemed into the mix. Imagine that, we threw the ball to him and our offense started doing better. Unfortunately it came after Indy had already thrown up 21 pts.

God damn some of you guys are dumb. Did you just start watching football today?

This analysis is up there with Orton having the same talent as Big Ben, Tom Brady, and Eli Manning. ha ha.

lex
12-13-2009, 03:43 PM
The offense scored big in the first three weeks. After that it wasn't hard to shut us down. Anybody with half a defense could.

The offenses are pretty much the same. We're throwing less and running more than last year by a lot. That's why we don't move the ball as quickly. But scoring is pretty much the same.

Like many of us have been saying it's on the line. It doesn't matter how much experience our talented receivers have when the RB gets the ball and has nowhere to run. It doesn't matter who the QB is when the RB gets met in the backfield. We get near the red zone and suddenly guys can't get as open and we can't run the ball.

It's not hard. Until we can become a dominant running team and can run in the red zone we won't be above average in offensive scoring.

Not really but if you have to believe this to make yourself feel better about whats going on, feel free.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:46 PM
This analysis is up there with Orton having the same talent as Big Ben, Tom Brady, and Eli Manning. ha ha.

Reading Comp 101 is a pretty interesting class. I suggest you take it.

hambone13
12-13-2009, 03:46 PM
I think Orton is a dink and dunk QB at best. He'll get you 5yds here and 10yds there consistently. But he won't make any spectacular plays for you. You won't get many 40yd scoring strikes and he sucks in the red zone. He's boring = our offense is boring.

Our offensive line was built for ZBS. McDaniels keeps trying to push the power running game. We do not have the personnel on the inside for that syle of running game...so, why they hell doesn't he play more ZBS? You are not going to pound the ball up the middle with this group....you have to open up the cut back lanes. McDaniels is a damned idiot for continually trying to run it up the gut on 3rd and 1. It's like he trying to prove something. All I see is stupid call by a dumbass coach.

I couldn't agree more, over and over and over again. I'm f**cking tired of the lack of ZBS...how do you change the strongest most consistent aspect of the franchise in 15 years with no significant O-Line personnel changes? It would also help if we had a QB that ran better than me for a beer between his plays...

baja
12-13-2009, 03:47 PM
Are you talking about this season, or are you talking about next season?

If you're talking about this season, I think the only "fix" we have for this offense is getting Payton Hillis more invovled. Will that "fix" all of our problems? Probably not. But Payton adds an element to our offense, and as shown by the record breaking catches by Marshall while losing, our offense could use another element.

<b>If I were Royal and Gaffney and Stokely, I wonder how I would be feeling right now?


Huh! My guess would be they are very happy that Brandon tore it up.

lex
12-13-2009, 03:47 PM
lex:

I was simply responding to the "would we have one even half the games in 2008 if Orton was the QB?" post.



By definition, it would be almost impossible to use him any less.



Again, this was a response to the post about us not getting to even 4 wins with Orton instead of Cutler. I was saying that I don't remember Cutler doing anything that game that Orton couldn't be reasonably expected to do.



Too many variables with the new coaching, new system, etc.

The "new system" excuse is played. If not for the improved defense, one wonders what our record would be because of "the new system."

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 03:50 PM
The "new system" excuse is played. If not for the improved defense, one wonders what our record would be because of "the new system."

Part of the reason why the defense is improved is because of the new offensive ball control system employed by McDaniels. The other is the players that McD specifically brought in. We can't cherry pick here. It's all or nothing.

hambone13
12-13-2009, 03:53 PM
Anybody pointing anywhere BUT QB first on this list is a friggin tard.

1. Orton - Marshall accounted for 21 of the 29 completions Orton had, also 200 of his 277 yards. If you are a sane, knowledgeable fan, you understand that defenses try to stop what you're having success with... so in this case, Bmarsh is exploding, they are probably rolling coverage, matching up 2 or 3 guys to his area to hold him down. Reasonably, this would open up other WR's for one on one coverages and big plays... I think I remember Eddie Royal being a 100 catch WR last season? Right? Well, if that's the case, why didn't this offense have any big plays with those other guys especially considering how banged up the Colts secondary was? Well, it's quite simple. Orton sucks. The other 8 passes were screen plays. His arm is weak, he can't run, and he doesn't trust himself throwing to a WR's unless they are BMarsh or 5 yds open.

The correct answer to this thread is CHANGE THE QB. We need somebody who is dynamic and gives us a chance to succeed, no matter the odds. Ideally that QB would also have an NFL arm and could move a little. I don't think I'm asking too much if I required a little pocket awareness as well.

Orton is a gritty QB but largely average across the board. He's good enough when paired with a great defense to win games for you. Most NFL QB's can. He won't be winning many playoff games and won't get to the super bowl.

2. Play calling/game planning: I love the stretch play against a speed defense, combined with a slow HB. Awesome. Will work every time. This was one of the most poorly called offensive games this year. It's highlighted by the fact that Brandon had what, his first catch with 17 seconds left to go in the first quarter. How bout we get our best players going first and then work in the wrinkles. Football really isn't as hard as the playcalling made it look in the 1st quarter.

3. Interior line: We want to be physical but we're really finesse. It's not going to change overnight and there are many offensive linemen who can fit the mold of what we need. We just need to commit to drafting or signing a few of them each year. LG has been a blackhole in our offense. Hochstein had a Ben Hamilton like day today.

4. Help at HB: Knowshon is a solid player, not the solo answer. McDaniels used him like a workhorse and he did not respond. Yes, this ties into run blocking as well however, he just does not have the drive to push through 1st defenders. He would work much better with a player in the backfield with him. Buckhalter is serviceable but hardly the long term answer. We need to find somebody who has unique skills for this offense but also can do something different vs. Moreno. I would suggest a speed back although I like the kid from Mississippi State this year as well, i think his name is Dixon. He's a good player.

Well communicated and nearly spot on in my opinion. An even slight increase in QB dynamics and we win this game handily. The stats against Manning when he has 3 INT's were very much in our favor. We need to be able to score. Talent wise we have a top 5 receiving corps but lack the dynamic to get it to them. We're so built for throwing the rock it's ridiculous. Orton is a yes man to the system which is largely a solid thing but he's so "blah" that he doesn't make a difference and he doesn't have the personality to challenge Josh's play calling. He should be asking for the ball and doing something about it but I believe he recognizes his own limitations.

lex
12-13-2009, 03:56 PM
Part of the reason why the defense is improved is because of the new offensive ball control system employed by McDaniels. The other is the players that McD specifically brought in. We can't cherry pick here. It's all or nothing.

So, underperforming on offense is why the defense is better? Interesting argument.

Look, last year I was annoyed that they made the offense all about the pass. So, its not like dont appreciate the fact that a better running game helps the defense. But we have an upgrade at RB as well and still have Hillis on the roster, yet, the offense is still underperforming.

hambone13
12-13-2009, 03:57 PM
F'N CLASSIC. Thank you for posting this. Unfortunately the art of x's and o's are lost on most stat readers that post on this forum.

And that's a no ****ter to boot...

hambone13
12-13-2009, 04:02 PM
Yeah. One of a couple bad throws in the game. God forbid the man isn't perfect. How dare he miss Eddie!

How dare he look for Eddie? He doesn't have a quick enough release or the arm to get it to Eddie when Eddie is open, for the most part. Eddie almost can't be defended if he has a QB who can execute on the windows his speed creates. Orton is not that guy. If Eddie was on the Patriots, I can assure you, he would be another Steve Smith....

Bronx33
12-13-2009, 04:03 PM
MCD really has to rethink this teams ability to run the ball on 3rd down.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:03 PM
So, underperforming on offense is why the defense is better? Interesting argument.

Are you really this dense? Controlling and winning the time of possession battle and turning the ball over less are HUGE factors that helped out the defense during the 6-0 run. Points and yardage didn't matter as much when the defense wasn't out there very much.

That type of game plan would've won the Oakland game last year instead of that crazy heave it up and see what happens offense.

Look, last year I was annoyed that they made the offense all about the pass. So, its not like dont appreciate the fact that a better running game helps the defense. But we have an upgrade at RB as well and still have Hillis on the roster, yet, the offense is still underperforming.

True, but they HAVE been struggling against some top defenses here. It's not like they're not putting up pts against KC and TB type teams here. Cincy, Baltimore, Pitt and Indy are at the top of the league in the "pts scored against" rankings.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:07 PM
Not really but if you have to believe this to make yourself feel better about whats going on, feel free.

Sorry dude. But it is.

Look at last years schedule. There might be six respectable defenses on the entire schedule. Maybe one or two top 10 defenses. Maybe.

This year has at least half the games against teams with defenses in the top 15, numerous defenses in the top 10, and a couple that were in the top 5 either now or when we played them.

Against last years playoff teams we scored a whopping 113 points in five games for 22.6 points per game. Out of that 80 points came against the Chargers who were one of only a few teams that could claim they had a defense almost as bad as ours. Against real playoff teams with real defenses we put up a lovely 17 points per game. And that's not counting the blowout loss to the Pats. They were 11-5 but no playoffs (drops to 10ppg if they made the playoffs).

Last years offense was horrible inconsistent and got the benefit of playing a softer schedule to pad it's stats against. Not only that but they lost to a lot of sh*tty teams and tacked on a few extra PPG from garbage time after they were already being blown out.

This years offense is consistent and has easily taken care of inferior teams. They haven't really blown anybody out. There are few garbage time points. In seven games against playoff teams (counting the 7 most likely to make it) we put up 118 points. Average of just under 17. This is all with a new coach, QB, and scheme.

Again. The scoring is pretty much the same and the problems scoring are the same.

The one consistent thing between the two teams is the red zone problems. Until we can run in the red zone everything else is minor or irrelevant.

hambone13
12-13-2009, 04:10 PM
Why is this so hard for some of you numbskulls to understand?

Last year the very same personnel led by jay cutler ran an efficient offense that allowed the least sacks in the league and allowed for a successful running game even though the 7th string rb was starting due to injury after injury to the positon.

Exit cutler, a qb you have to defend the entire field against, and insert Kyle orton- suddenly the offense is worse than the bills and lions and is unable to sustain drives or score touchdowns- even with an upgrade at rb.

Same team. New 1st round rb. Offense is pane of the 3 worst in the league- it's not that hard to figure out what the problem is, and it's not the line.

Orton will dink and dunk the stats to respectability, but it's just fluff. No chances taken, no big play ability, cannot avoid ruahers, never feels the pressure- Kyle Orton is a marble statue when pressured, and this will never change.

QB needs to be upgraded. It's a shame that Nolan's defense is being wasted.

:thanku::thanku::thanku:

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:10 PM
Well communicated and nearly spot on in my opinion. An even slight increase in QB dynamics and we win this game handily. The stats against Manning when he has 3 INT's were very much in our favor. We need to be able to score. Talent wise we have a top 5 receiving corps but lack the dynamic to get it to them. We're so built for throwing the rock it's ridiculous. Orton is a yes man to the system which is largely a solid thing but he's so "blah" that he doesn't make a difference and he doesn't have the personality to challenge Josh's play calling. He should be asking for the ball and doing something about it but I believe he recognizes his own limitations.

How?

lex
12-13-2009, 04:14 PM
Are you really this dense? Controlling and winning the time of possession battle and turning the ball over less are HUGE factors that helped out the defense during the 6-0 run. Points and yardage didn't matter as much when the defense wasn't out there very much.

That type of game plan would've won the Oakland game last year instead of that crazy heave it up and see what happens offense.

Now youre getting into another area. Most of the criticism of last years team is that they would drive the ball and then turn the ball over inside the red zone. Doing this still keeps your defense on the sideline. Finishing with a score puts your defense at more of an advantage if it makes their offense more prefictable. But last year, in spite of the turnovers, we scored more even without the benefit of the turnovers our defense has provided this year...even with the turnovers we had last year, our offense scored more...and again, there have been upgrades on offense and with a year of experience, this offense should be a lot better.



True, but they HAVE been struggling against some top defenses here. It's not like they're not putting up pts against KC and TB type teams here. Cincy, Baltimore, Pitt and Indy are at the top of the league in the "pts scored against" rankings.

Exactly. Last year, when we played playoff caliber teams, I felt we had a chance on offense. This year, not so much. The offensive product this year has been rough.



in bold

Bronx33
12-13-2009, 04:14 PM
How?


Not throwing the ball up for grabs like a damn rookie would be pretty dynamic.;D

hambone13
12-13-2009, 04:16 PM
What's the defenses' records in those game? It sounds like Orton is playing games by himself, no?

Dallas win, Marshall 51 yd catch and RUN. How much did Orton do there? Oh yeah, he was a warm body trailing 15 yds on the play as Marshall made half the cowboys defense miss.

SD win, Eddie Royal, 2 special teams touchdowns keep us in it in the 1st half. If not, we're getting blown out going into the half.

NE win, defense holds Brady to 3 pts after halftime. Denver scrapes together enough points to put the game in OT.

Do you seriously want to give Orton all the credit for the Cincy hail mary too? Hell, he almost fugged that up, he underthrew the ball by 6 yards but a Bengals defender tipped it right to Stokely.

Misleading, stupid facts there that show nothing but the average of Orton. Defense has carried this team to a potential playoff appearance this season. Orton has done nothing but waste that... evidence by the Baltimore, Pittsburgh, SD, and Indy games.

I don't really see how anyone who watches with any attention to detail outside of the stats couldn't land somewhere in the realm of this conclusion either. It's baffling really.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:21 PM
Now youre getting into another area. Most of the criticism of last years team is that they would drive the ball and then turn the ball over inside the red zone. Doing this still keeps your defense on the sideline. Finishing with a score puts your defense at more of an advantage if it makes their offense more prefictable. But last year, in spite of the turnovers, we scored more even without the benefit of the turnovers our defense has provided this year...even with the turnovers we had last year, our offense scored more...and again, there have been upgrades on offense and with a year of experience, this offense should be a lot better.


All that crazy scoring that people are chirping about from last year's team was clustered into the first three games. Great. They were world beaters in those three games against statistically 3 of the worst defenses in the league (Oak, SD and NO). After that, they were worse than mediocre and within a point or two per game as this year's unit.

Last year, when we played playoff caliber teams, I felt we had a chance on offense. This year, not so much. The offensive product this year has been rough.


But they've actually been fine against them if you really look at the numbers. In their first game against SD, Dallas, New England, and even Indy, the Broncos have scored at or above the opposing defenses' average pts given up. Baltimore and Pitt probably won't make the playoffs.

lex
12-13-2009, 04:24 PM
Sorry dude. But it is.

Look at last years schedule. There might be six respectable defenses on the entire schedule. Maybe one or two top 10 defenses. Maybe.

This year has at least half the games against teams with defenses in the top 15, numerous defenses in the top 10, and a couple that were in the top 5 either now or when we played them.

Against last years playoff teams we scored a whopping 113 points in five games for 22.6 points per game. Out of that 80 points came against the Chargers who were one of only a few teams that could claim they had a defense almost as bad as ours. Against real playoff teams with real defenses we put up a lovely 17 points per game. And that's not counting the blowout loss to the Pats. They were 11-5 but no playoffs (drops to 10ppg if they made the playoffs).

Last years offense was horrible inconsistent and got the benefit of playing a softer schedule to pad it's stats against. Not only that but they lost to a lot of sh*tty teams and tacked on a few extra PPG from garbage time after they were already being blown out.

This years offense is consistent and has easily taken care of inferior teams. They haven't really blown anybody out. There are few garbage time points. In seven games against playoff teams (counting the 7 most likely to make it) we put up 118 points. Average of just under 17. This is all with a new coach, QB, and scheme.

Again. The scoring is pretty much the same and the problems scoring are the same.

The one consistent thing between the two teams is the red zone problems. Until we can run in the red zone everything else is minor or irrelevant.

Not really. In another thread we were discussing how our offense has performed in relation to Chicago's. Someone tried trotting out the strength of schedule and "we play better defenses" argument by pointing to Sagarins SOS ratings. When you drill into common opponents its indicative of the whole however.

Its poplular to parrot "a lot of our scoring last year was concentrated in the first three games" but one problem that exists with that argument is that those games actually do count. Another problem is that scoring wasnt a problem in the Browns, Jets, and Falcons games. Thats actually when we were at our overall best and scoring wasnt a problem in those games. Last year Hillis, Pittman, Wiegmann, Royal, and Clady all spent their first years in a "new system." Hamilton was coming off of a missed season. Kuper and Harris spent their first years as starters as well. Collectively, these guys should be better this year since a lot of those guys know the speed of the game now. But theyre not. The offense is underperforming.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:24 PM
I don't really see how anyone who watches with any attention to detail outside of the stats couldn't land somewhere in the realm of this conclusion either. It's baffling really.

Watching with any attention to detail and not pointing out the weaknesses of the OLine against top shelf defenses is baffling to me. They were all over us today and have been each time we've faced a decent defense. That is hardly the QBs fault.

Was it Tom Brady's fault that NY was all over him in the SB a few years ago and he didn't get it done, even though he had a top WR unit that looked unstoppable on paper?

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 04:25 PM
I don't really see how anyone who watches with any attention to detail outside of the stats couldn't land somewhere in the realm of this conclusion either. It's baffling really.

just hope to god we end up with locker, Bradford or Mallett. This offense is always going to suck with Orton

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:27 PM
Not throwing the ball up for grabs like a damn rookie would be pretty dynamic.;D

Well that will get fixed next year if McDaniels drafts a new QB...Oh wait...

bpc
12-13-2009, 04:28 PM
Watching with any attention to detail and not pointing out the weaknesses of the OLine against top shelf defenses is baffling to me. They were all over us today and have been each time we've faced a decent defense. That is hardly the QBs fault.

Was it Tom Brady's fault that NY was all over him in the SB a few years ago and he didn't get it done, even though he had a top WR unit that looked unstoppable on paper?

Oh god, are you still comparing Kyle Orton to Tom Brady? I was hoping you would have slept off such stupid thoughts after the game. Guess I was wrong.

Anyways, don't let me step in your way. Maybe tomorrow Orton will be Joe Montana in your eyes. One can only hope.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:30 PM
Oh god, are you still comparing Kyle Orton to Tom Brady?

That's incorrect and is a cop-out and you know it. Comparing players and comparing situations that players find themselves in are two very different things. Use your brain.

TonyR
12-13-2009, 04:36 PM
See, we didn't do **** our first 3 drives, which coincided with Marshall not being schemed into the mix. Imagine that, we threw the ball to him and our offense started doing better. Unfortunately it came after Indy had already thrown up 21 pts.


Here are the Broncos 1st qtr possessions:

Denver Broncos at 9:06
1st and 10 at DEN 11 K.Moreno left tackle to DEN 15 for 4 yards (P.Wheeler, J.Powers). DEN-T.Scheffler was injured during the play.
2nd and 6 at DEN 15 (Shotgun) K.Orton pass short left to K.Moreno pushed ob at DEN 19 for 4 yards (C.Session).
3rd and 2 at DEN 19 C.Buckhalter up the middle to DEN 18 for -1 yards (G.Brackett).
4th and 3 at DEN 18 M.Berger punts 50 yards to IND 32, Center-L.Paxton. T.Rushing to IND 44 for 12 yards (D.McBath, R.Quinn).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 0, IND 7, 3 plays, 7 yards, 1:26 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 5:04
1st and 10 at DEN 20 K.Orton pass short left to B.Marshall pushed ob at DEN 34 for 14 yards (A.Bethea).
1st and 10 at DEN 34 C.Buckhalter right end to DEN 40 for 6 yards (C.Session, P.Wheeler).
2nd and 4 at DEN 40 C.Buckhalter right tackle to 50 for 10 yards (M.Bullitt).
1st and 10 at 50 (Shotgun) C.Buckhalter up the middle to IND 46 for 4 yards (M.Bullitt, G.Brackett).
2nd and 6 at IND 46 K.Moreno up the middle to IND 44 for 2 yards (D.Muir).
3rd and 4 at IND 44 K.Orton pass short left to E.Royal to IND 41 for 3 yards (J.Lacey).
4th and 1 at IND 41 K.Moreno right tackle to IND 41 for no gain (G.Brackett).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 0, IND 14, 7 plays, 39 yards, 3:19 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 0:57
1st and 10 at DEN 13 (Run formation) K.Moreno right end to DEN 11 for -2 yards (C.Session).
2nd and 12 at DEN 11 (Shotgun) K.Orton pass short middle to B.Marshall to DEN 30 for 19 yards (G.Brackett, K.Hayden). IND-M.Bullitt was injured during the play.
End of Period

Looks to me like Marshall caught 2 passes in the first quarter and otherwise they tried to establish the run. The Broncos only had two full possessions because the Colts controlled the ball. And perhaps Marshall was a read in a couple other plays but was covered or Orton didn't have time to get him the ball. You're making assumptions.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:37 PM
Not really. In another thread we were discussing how our offense has performed in relation to Chicago's. Someone tried trotting out the strength of schedule and "we play better defenses" argument by pointing to Sagarins SOS ratings. When you drill into common opponents its indicative of the whole however.

Its poplular to parrot "a lot of our scoring last year was concentrated in the first three games" but one problem that exists with that argument is that those games actually do count. Another problem is that scoring wasnt a problem in the Browns, Jets, and Falcons games. Thats actually when we were at our overall best and scoring wasnt a problem in those games. Last year Hillis, Pittman, Wiegmann, Royal, and Clady all spent their first years in a "new system." Hamilton was coming off of a missed season. Kuper and Harris spent their first years as starters as well. Collectively, these guys should be better this year since a lot of those guys know the speed of the game now. But theyre not. The offense is underperforming.

And here's where your argument falls apart. First I wasn't comparing strength of schedule so much as strength of defenses played. Only an idiot would deny we played nearly as many defenses of a similar caliber last year.

Scoring wasn't a problem in those games you brought up. But many of those were also some of the weakest teams defensively in the league. This year against weak defensive teams we've easily handled them and scoring wasn't a problem either.

I'm not saying this years offense isn't under performing. It's performing at the same level as last years. Which also underperformed. But this years is more consistent. And the problem remains the same. Inability to run in the red zone. Replacing Orton won't do **** for this offense. Yeah if we had one of the top QB's in the game we'd probably have a few more blowouts under our belts against the likes of Oakland and Cleveland. Maybe a difference 1 or 2 points per game over the course of the season. But against the playoff defenses the results would have been very similar.

bpc
12-13-2009, 04:39 PM
Here are the Broncos 1st qtr possessions:

Denver Broncos at 9:06
1st and 10 at DEN 11 K.Moreno left tackle to DEN 15 for 4 yards (P.Wheeler, J.Powers). DEN-T.Scheffler was injured during the play.
2nd and 6 at DEN 15 (Shotgun) K.Orton pass short left to K.Moreno pushed ob at DEN 19 for 4 yards (C.Session).
3rd and 2 at DEN 19 C.Buckhalter up the middle to DEN 18 for -1 yards (G.Brackett).
4th and 3 at DEN 18 M.Berger punts 50 yards to IND 32, Center-L.Paxton. T.Rushing to IND 44 for 12 yards (D.McBath, R.Quinn).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 0, IND 7, 3 plays, 7 yards, 1:26 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 5:04
1st and 10 at DEN 20 K.Orton pass short left to B.Marshall pushed ob at DEN 34 for 14 yards (A.Bethea).
1st and 10 at DEN 34 C.Buckhalter right end to DEN 40 for 6 yards (C.Session, P.Wheeler).
2nd and 4 at DEN 40 C.Buckhalter right tackle to 50 for 10 yards (M.Bullitt).
1st and 10 at 50 (Shotgun) C.Buckhalter up the middle to IND 46 for 4 yards (M.Bullitt, G.Brackett).
2nd and 6 at IND 46 K.Moreno up the middle to IND 44 for 2 yards (D.Muir).
3rd and 4 at IND 44 K.Orton pass short left to E.Royal to IND 41 for 3 yards (J.Lacey).
4th and 1 at IND 41 K.Moreno right tackle to IND 41 for no gain (G.Brackett).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 0, IND 14, 7 plays, 39 yards, 3:19 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 0:57
1st and 10 at DEN 13 (Run formation) K.Moreno right end to DEN 11 for -2 yards (C.Session).
2nd and 12 at DEN 11 (Shotgun) K.Orton pass short middle to B.Marshall to DEN 30 for 19 yards (G.Brackett, K.Hayden). IND-M.Bullitt was injured during the play.
End of Period

Looks to me like Marshall caught 2 passes in the first quarter and otherwise they tried to establish the run. The Broncos only had two full possessions because the Colts controlled the ball. And perhaps Marshall was a read in a couple other plays but was covered or Orton didn't have time to get him the ball. You're making assumptions.

I must have missed that but as it is, he picks up 35 yds and you don't keep going to him?

Pathetic.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:40 PM
2, 2, 4, 6, 7, 10, 14, 15, 24, 26 and 29.

Three scrubs on the whole list and 6 games against top 10 units. Pretty tough to have a top offensive unit when you're going up against that kind of talent. Can they improve? Of course. Are there better QBs out there? Of course. Are any of them available today? Nope. Are any available in this coming draft? None that I would bank my career on, but we'll see what McD thinks.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:43 PM
I must have missed that but as it is, he picks up 35 yds and you don't keep going to him?

Pathetic.

What are you talking about? That's exactly what they did. He had 8 catches in the 2nd quarter and 11 in the second half. They couldn't have gone to him any more.

lex
12-13-2009, 04:43 PM
And here's where your argument falls apart. First I wasn't comparing strength of schedule so much as strength of defenses played. Only an idiot would deny we played nearly as many defenses of a similar caliber last year.

Scoring wasn't a problem in those games you brought up. But many of those were also some of the weakest teams defensively in the league. This year against weak defensive teams we've easily handled them and scoring wasn't a problem either.

I'm not saying this years offense isn't under performing. It's performing at the same level as last years. Which also underperformed. But this years is more consistent. And the problem remains the same. Inability to run in the red zone. Replacing Orton won't do **** for this offense. Yeah if we had one of the top QB's in the game we'd probably have a few more blowouts under our belts against the likes of Oakland and Cleveland. Maybe a difference 1 or 2 points per game over the course of the season. But against the playoff defenses the results would have been very similar.

You must have missed the part where I mentioned that we also have personnel upgrades at WR, RB, and OL, either by experience or acquisition. Plus, according to many, Orton is an upgrade at QB. So, with that in mind, the offense should be better equipped to play Pitt or Balt without averaging less than 10 points a game. This is one way your argument falls apart.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:43 PM
While were talking about those first three games of last year.

They were against ****ty defenses. But they still count.

But what about the first four games this year? You know, the ones where our starting QB was recovering from an open dislocation suffered two weeks from the start of the season?

You'd be a bold faced liar if you say you can't see a night and day improvement since then in Orton's play. Scoring remains similar though. Hmmmm. I wonder why?

lex
12-13-2009, 04:46 PM
While were talking about those first three games of last year.

They were against ****ty defenses. But they still count.

But what about the first four games this year? You know, the ones where our starting QB was recovering from an open dislocation suffered two weeks from the start of the season?

You'd be a bold faced liar if you say you can't see a night and day improvement since then in Orton's play. Scoring remains similar though. Hmmmm. I wonder why?

Like I said, our offense was probably at its best during a stretch of games where they played NYJ and Atl on the road. Scoring wasnt a problem in those games either. We played NY when they were coming off of a big win against Tennessee. At that point, NY was a formiddable team with a stout defense. Atlanta had a solid team too.

Lolad
12-13-2009, 04:47 PM
I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's the exact same.

And our offense last year wasn't good. If I recall our ranking in points scored was 16th. Cutler racked up big yardage between the 20's with his risky throws into coverage but it fell apart in the red zone when we couldn't run it and couldn't pass it because the field got smaller.

We fix the run game in short yardage and Orton will move the ball just as efficiently (something he's doing well at already between the 20's) and we'll score more touchdowns without the turnovers of Cutler.

I'll say it again. Our offense last year wasn't good. It was average at best. I could even argue it's worse than this years offense. This years offense doesn't turn the ball over 3 times a game.

yes.. as is evident this year Cutler is not good in the redzone. So lets take a QB with his ability and good and the redzone and what do you get?? a damn good offense that can move up and down the field and not throw INT's in the redzone.

This year we can't even drive 30 yards on 2 straight drives to get any points..

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:49 PM
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that we also have personnel upgrades at WR, RB, and OL, either by experience or acquisition. Plus, according to many, Orton is an upgrade at QB. So, with that in mind, the offense should be better equipped to play Pitt or Balt without averaging less than 10 points a game. This is one way your argument falls apart.

Our starting receivers are still the same. We have more depth but ultimately I would call it a wash. RB is better yes. But the OL isn't. That's the important one. It's the same. And it wasn't good enough last year either.

QB is an improvement in play if not physicality and that shows up in the defensive points allowed.

One more year experience yeah. But it's a new scheme this year. Guys are being asked to do different things. Also, one extra year of experience won't help our undersized LG and C block better against fat defenses.

The major upgrades came on defense and it shows. Offensively we are treading water. Until our line can block like a dominant OL we won't be above average on offense.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:49 PM
Like I said, our offense was probably at its best during a stretch of games where they played NYJ and Atl on the road. Scoring wasnt a problem in those games either. We played NY when they were coming off of a big win against Tennessee. At that point, NY was a formiddable team with a stout defense. Atlanta had a solid team too.

Atlanta gave up 20.3 pts per game last year. We scored 24. Good, but not something I'd hang my hat on as a top shelf scoring bonanza.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 04:50 PM
This year we can't even drive 30 yards on 2 straight drives to get any points..

I see you've missed a few games this season.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 04:50 PM
yes.. as is evident this year Cutler is not good in the redzone. So lets take a QB with his ability and good and the redzone and what do you get?? a damn good offense that can move up and down the field and not throw INT's in the redzone.

This year we can't even drive 30 yards on 2 straight drives to get any points..

Hell yeah! Let's go do that! Sign me up!

Know where we can find one?

I thought so.

And we couldn't even drive 30 yards on 2 straight drives last year to get points. So I don't know why you bring that up.

Wes Mantooth
12-13-2009, 04:52 PM
this thread is stupid.

lex
12-13-2009, 04:53 PM
Atlanta gave up 20.3 pts per game last year. We scored 24. Good, but not something I'd hang my hat on as a top shelf scoring bonanza.

Who said anything about a scoring bonanza? Actually, if this years team scored 24 points against a good team, Id be pleased. But again, we should actually be better on offense this year.

BTW, this year, Pitt is giving up over 18 points a game. The Ravens are just under 18. Big difference there. LOL

GeniusatWork
12-13-2009, 04:58 PM
Orton gets ragged on too much. He still has room for improvement but a handful of people will rag on him for every little thing and not give him credit for anything at all.

Lolad
12-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Our starting receivers are still the same. We have more depth but ultimately I would call it a wash. RB is better yes. But the OL isn't. That's the important one. It's the same. And it wasn't good enough last year either.

QB is an improvement in play if not physicality and that shows up in the defensive points allowed.

One more year experience yeah. But it's a new scheme this year. Guys are being asked to do different things. Also, one extra year of experience won't help our undersized LG and C block better against fat defenses.

The major upgrades came on defense and it shows. Offensively we are treading water. Until our line can block like a dominant OL we won't be above average on offense.

How is the same line from last year not good enough?? When we were lowest in sacks allowed and running the ball effectively. What has changed since then? Probably an immobile QB and an inability to stretch the field.

lex
12-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Our starting receivers are still the same. We have more depth but ultimately I would call it a wash. RB is better yes. But the OL isn't. That's the important one. It's the same. And it wasn't good enough last year either.

Not really. Last year the OLine had 3 first year starters and a center who was also new to the system.

QB is an improvement in play if not physicality and that shows up in the defensive points allowed.

But on the flip side, the defense is also turning over opposing offenses more and, yet, the offense is scoring fewer points...with a better QB, RB, OL, and WRs.

One more year experience yeah. But it's a new scheme this year. Guys are being asked to do different things. Also, one extra year of experience won't help our undersized LG and C block better against fat defenses.

As I mentioned before, last year a lot of starters were not only getting used to a new offense but were getting used to the speed of the NFL game. This year, the only rookie seeing time is Moreno. Again, the offense had also had turnover last year where a new offense was concerned but in a lot of cases they were also learning the speed of the NFL game. The "new system" excuse isnt much of one. Besides, its week 14.

The major upgrades came on defense and it shows. Offensively we are treading water. Until our line can block like a dominant OL we won't be above average on offense.

The biggest upgrade was probably at DC. But we're talkign about the offense. Last year we had Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Jackson, and Martinez. This year there is an upgrade through acquisition and experience. Last year our best RB was Hillis. He's not even good enough to see the field apparently. Moreno and Buckhalter are better than Young and Pittman. And then the QB position is subjective. According to many, Orton is an upgrade.



In bold

wandlc
12-13-2009, 05:13 PM
I find it amusing that after last season all you heard was the offense is good but fix the defense and the Broncos would go deep in the playoffs. Now the offense is the problem we need better WRs and a better Oline and a QB and one more RB to go deep in the playoffs.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 05:27 PM
How is the same line from last year not good enough?? When we were lowest in sacks allowed and running the ball effectively. What has changed since then? Probably an immobile QB and an inability to stretch the field.

Last year the line dominated in pass blocking to a level that is RARELY ever seen let alone repeated. Of course they aren't meeting that standard again. But they weren't good enough last year or this year in RUN blocking. Which is what is really holding this offense back. Passes get you chunks of yards but runs sustain the drive. The number of times we've punted or kicked a FG because we couldn't convert on 2nd or 3rd and short is far far too many to be a dominant offense. You have to convert on that and do it with ease.

The difference between our offense and a dominant offense isn't that they make big plays and we don't. It's that we don't make the plays that any offense should make. Short distance yardage. Dominant offenses give themselves more plays to make the end zone. We don't.

I guarantee you if we can run the ball and consistently convert 75% of our short yardage plays next year we'll see an uptick in points scored by 4 to 5 points AT LEAST and you'll see a lot more deep balls thrown.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 05:29 PM
I find it amusing that after last season all you heard was the offense is good but fix the defense and the Broncos would go deep in the playoffs. Now the offense is the problem we need better WRs and a better Oline and a QB and one more RB to go deep in the playoffs.

When your defense is that bad it makes any offense look good. Our offense just looked sexy in comparison. In reality they were just the best of two barely functional units.

Lolad
12-13-2009, 05:43 PM
When your defense is that bad it makes any offense look good. Our offense just looked sexy in comparison. In reality they were just the best of two barely functional units.

you're just making **** up for the hell of it. Our Offense was ranked 2nd in yards. Not so good in scoring because of Jay Cutler and No run game for a few weeks.

We don't have Cutler and we have a 2-3 legitimate RB's what the excuse?

hambone13
12-13-2009, 05:54 PM
How?

Just a few ideas:

-The ability to scramble and create plays after the intended play has unraveled.
-The physical ability to get the ball to a receiver like Eddie Royal as he is open for brief windows at the earlier parts of his routes on almost every play.
- The personality to challenge the coach when he's making ****ty calls because the QB makes the coach better, not the other way around.
- Don't fall down for no apparent reason on astro-turf...

oubronco
12-13-2009, 06:02 PM
switch Orton and Brees and who would win more games the Broncos or the Saints?

bpc
12-13-2009, 06:07 PM
switch Orton and Brees and who would win more games the Broncos or the Saints?

Damn you OU, you stole Beanpole Broncos thunder. He was about to compare Fail Orton's QB skills to Drew Brees any second!

oubronco
12-13-2009, 06:08 PM
Damn you OU, you stole Beanpole Broncos thunder. He was about to compare Fail Orton to Drew Brees any second!

and your answer and why

Atwater His Ass
12-13-2009, 06:14 PM
When your defense is that bad it makes any offense look good. Our offense just looked sexy in comparison. In reality they were just the best of two barely functional units.

:rofl:

wandlc
12-13-2009, 06:15 PM
When your defense is that bad it makes any offense look good. Our offense just looked sexy in comparison. In reality they were just the best of two barely functional units.

Another example of revisionist history. The offense was good the defense was bad. Even with the loss of RBs last year the offense was still good. You give last years offense decent starting field position and they would have scored more points. Also if the pressure wasn't on the offense to score on every possession the play calling and choices made are different.

bpc
12-13-2009, 06:18 PM
and your answer and why

The Broncos with Brees at the helm are contending for a super bowl and they definitely beat the Colts today. Royal has probably twice the number of catches he does now and the OL is still one of the best pass blocking units in the league. The line isn't worse outside of Harris being hurt, the pocket awareness by the QB's is causing the jump in sacks. Brees' ability to go downfield opens up huge running lanes and Moreno would be showing a lot better than he currently is, especially against quality opponents.

Orton's weak arm and poor ability to progress down the field would hurt the Saints offensive potential and expose the defense. I doubt the Saints would be a playoff team with Orton at the helm.

I do give Payton the nod over McD as a better offensive coach but I don't think it would make much difference. You can't turn chicken $hit into chicken salad.

ColoradoDarin
12-13-2009, 06:32 PM
From the 4th game onwards last year our offense looked about like it does this year. Also, our OL took a step back this season, Hamilton looked awful and Hochstein is only better by default. Weigmann looks like this will be his final year too.

Bronco Yoda
12-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Hopefully some lessons were learned to today.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 07:08 PM
Another example of revisionist history. The offense was good the defense was bad. Even with the loss of RBs last year the offense was still good. You give last years offense decent starting field position and they would have scored more points. Also if the pressure wasn't on the offense to score on every possession the play calling and choices made are different.

Not really. The offense was responsible for it's fair share of the defenses points given up.

It was a turnover machine. We'd start the game off great. Drive down for a score and then do nothing for a couple of quarters.

Last years offense was bad and predictable. **** it and chuck it three in a row and then punt. The only variation was a pick or a fumble.

Our problems on offense last year were in the red zone. That hasn't changed. Give last years offense more chances and of course they would have scored more points. But they also would have failed in the red zone even more times. They were a bad offense and no number of extra attempts would have changed that.

This years offense is better if only because it doesn't **** over the defense with a couple of turnovers a game. It still struggles with the same problem of can't get the tough yards in short yardage situations.

rastaman
12-13-2009, 07:27 PM
No changes this year?!

Peyton Hillis will solve all.

He doesn't need blockers, in fact he considers it an insult if you try and have guys block for him. Did you see that carry he had today. He ripped off those 2 yards like a legit HOF'er.

What! all Hillis had was one freaking carry for two yards! Incredible! I thought we all would at least wait to judge Ole' Hillis after he had 23 carries like your boy Moreno had!!! I guess I was wrong. But then no one ever accused you with being fair and open minded with your analysis.

Here's to Hillis!Hilarious!

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 07:40 PM
How is the same line from last year not good enough?? When we were lowest in sacks allowed and running the ball effectively. What has changed since then? Probably an immobile QB and an inability to stretch the field.

Injury to our outstanding right tackle.
Unreal difference in strength of schedule.

Archer81
12-13-2009, 07:40 PM
As I stated in another thread, the Colts were bound and determined to stop the Broncos from running the football. It wouldnt matter which back would have gotten 23 carries, the line was getting beat off the snap, and I am surprised we only allowed three sacks. That being said, we still outrushed Indi, and put up more yards and 1 fewer first down. RZ woes and 4th down conversions...that did the team in today.

:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 07:41 PM
Damn you OU, you stole Beanpole Broncos thunder. He was about to compare Fail Orton's QB skills to Drew Brees any second!

Not even close. But I like how badly I'm in your head.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 07:42 PM
switch Orton and Brees and who would win more games the Broncos or the Saints?

What point are you even trying to make here? That Orton isn't as good as the best QB in the league? Nobody here is arguing that.

broncolife
12-13-2009, 07:48 PM
Denvers 2009 Offensive Drives

Denver vs Cin

Punt
Punt
D forces fumble and give the O the ball at Den 44
Punt
Punt
D intercepts ball and gives the ball to the O at the 20
Punt
Field Goal
Punt
Punt
Field Goal
Punt
87 yard miracle tipped pass play failed 2pt conversion

Den 12 Cin 7 12-0=12


Denver vs Cle

Punt
D forces a fumble and give the O the ball at the 9 for an easy 7.
Field goal
Punt
Missed Field goal
D forces a fumble and O gets it at the 38. O does crap and gets a field goal.
Missed Field goal
4thQ first real td drive
Td
trying to run clock and stoped on 4th
D intercepts, Orton takes a Knee

Cle 6 Den 27
Basically give 10 points to the D. 27-10=17

Den vs Oak

Stopped on 4th and goal.
D intercepts ball and O gets it at the 23. TD
D intercepts ball and O gets it at the 34. O does crap and gets a field goal.
Field goal
Td
Fumble Oak gets ball at our 16
D forces Oak to fumble the ball back at the 6 which leads to a field goal.
O starts at 49 and ends up punting
O starts at 44 and ends up punting
O starts at 44 and runs clock out

Den 23 Oak 13
Basically give 13 points to the D. 23-13=10

Den vs Dal

punt
punt
punt
D forces fumble and gives the O the ball at the 9. Easy Td
punt
Fumbles ball away at own 27
D gets ball back at 6 with a int end up Punting
O stuffed on 4th and 1 on Dallas 30
punt
field goal
Td

Dal 10 Den 17
Basically give 7 points to the D 17-7=10

Den vs Ne

field goal
Fumble, Ne gets 3 points
punt
punt
90 yard Td drive
Halftime Hail mary int
field goal
punt
98 yard Td drive
punt
punt
OT field goal

Ne 17 Den 20
O gave Ne 3 points, but D had no turnovers = 20

Den vs SD

punt
Eddie Royal td return
field goal
Eddie Royal td return
Punt Sproles return
missed field goal
punt
TD
D Forces a fumble and O gets the ball at SD 47 field goal
punt
TD
Den 34 SD 23
Special team and D gave 17 points. 34-17=17

Den vs Balt

Punt
Punt
Moreno Fumble ball at Den 23. D holds Balt to field goal
Punt
Punt
Punt
TD 3 Balt penalties helped especially the 39 yarder
Punt
Punt
ran out of time

Balt 30 Den 7 7-0= 7


Pitts vs Den

Field goal
Punt
Orton with a pick 6
Punt
Punt
D forces a fumble and gets a 54 yard td return by Ayers
Punt
D intercept ball at 10 (Goodman)
Punt
Punt
Orton picked at Denvers 25 and Pitts scores a TD
Punt
Orton picked at Denvers 45

Pitt 28 Den 10 10-14= -4 for the O. pick 6 included and the Ds td.

Den vs Wash

TD wooohoooo
Buck Fumbles Wash punts
TD
Punt
Punt
Field goal
Simms in Punt
Punt
Simms picked at Wash 40. Wash gets TD
Stopped

Den 17 Wash 27 17-0=17

SD vs Den *Simms Starting

Simms fumbles at SD28. SD gets a TD on drive
Punt
Punt
Orton in and Moreno fumbles at 1.BULLS... They Punt
Orton picked at the SD 41. not enough time on the clock for SD
Field goal
Stopped
Punt
Stopped
Stopped

SD 32 Den 3 3-0=3

NYG vs Den

Punt
Field goal
Field goal
D forces fumble at Nyg 38. O scores a TD
Field goal. started at midfield
Ran the clock out with 1:41 remaning in the half
Orton pick at Nyg 16 returned to the 40.Giant get Field goal
Punt
TD
D forces fumble at NYG 31. O scores field goal
D intercept ball at Den 46 returned to NYG 48. O punts

Den 26 NYG 6 26-10=16

Den vs KC

Orton Picked in the endzone. Kc punts
TD
Punt
TD
Punt
Orton fumbles at Denver 50. Kc gets a field goal
Field goal. Get ball at KCs 27 because of failed fake punt
D intercepts ball at 29 returned to Kc 21. O scores TD
D intercepts ball at Kc 42. O gets field goal
Punt

Orton fumbles at Denver 3. Kc gets an easy TD
TD
Eddie Royal Big return to KC 41. Field goal
Hillis runs out the clock
D forces fumble and returns it for a Td

Den 44 KC 13 44-17= 27 not giving points for the fake field goal eventhough it set up our O with awesome field position.

Den vs Ind

Punt
Stopped
Punt
TD
Stopped.crap punt gave us great field position too.Den 46
D intercepts ball at IND 48. O gets nothing out of it.
Punt
Punt
D intercepts ball at IND 37. Orton Picked off at Ind 14. Indy punts
Missed field goal. Started with great field position at Den 43
D intercepts ball at IND 49 returned to the 24. O gets Field goal
TD

Den 16 Ind 28 16-3=13 sad with 3 turnover in Indy territory.


So our O averages about 12 points a game without the Defenses help.

lex
12-13-2009, 08:06 PM
Kudos broncolife. Thats a nice breakdown. But youre not understanding the whole objective is to run three plays, not turn it over and then punt (according to the way many here talk).

colonelbeef
12-13-2009, 08:08 PM
They would maybe lose the first SD game and NO game but the second Oakland game and Bills game might turn into wins.

Are you ****ing serious? Last years defense with this offense wins 2-3 games at best. The 2009 broncos have won 8 games because of the improved defense, not because of Kyle Dinkton and his 19 ppg. It's like you haven't seen a single game.

Conversely, put the 2008 offense with the 2009 defense and you have a real championship contender.

You're completely lost.

Archer81
12-13-2009, 08:13 PM
Are you ****ing serious? Last years defense with this offense wins 2-3 games at best. The 2009 broncos have won 8 games because of the improved defense, not because of Kyle Dinkton and his 19 ppg. It's like you haven't seen a single game.

Conversely, put the 2008 offense with the 2009 defense and you have a real championship contender.

You're completely lost.


I'd say you are. Last year's offense was not some record setting unit devoid of flaws. They turned it over too often and after week 4 averaged roughly 20 points a game, they also couldnt convert on 3rd and short or get tds in the redzone... the exact same as this season.

But considering some like to live in the land of fantasy, keep thinking last year's offense and this defense = championship.

:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 08:24 PM
Are you ****ing serious? Last years defense with this offense wins 2-3 games at best. The 2009 broncos have won 8 games because of the improved defense, not because of Kyle Dinkton and his 19 ppg. It's like you haven't seen a single game.

Conversely, put the 2008 offense with the 2009 defense and you have a real championship contender.

You're completely lost.

Please. Oakland opener, TB game, KC home game, would remain given wins. Cutler did nothing special in either game that couldn't easily be replicated by Orton.

Jacksonville could easily become a win. Cutler had two terrible turnovers that game that stopped drives and resulted in pts the other way.

Same for Miami. Close game that was hurt by his three INTs, one of which was a pick 6. How many pick 6s does Orton throw?

Entire game plan would've changed at home against Oakland with a much more conservative array of plays, just like we were begging for last year. Win.

That's 6 right there without even getting into some other games that I could see going another way. And none of those are crazy predictions by any stretch. All close games that the defense showed up and Cutler either played ok in or bad in.

Popps
12-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Wow, colon-beef is back!

A loss brings the roaches out of the closet, doesn't it?

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 08:28 PM
yeah if the offense was this bad last year they go 3-13. This team just can't score points against a decent defense without ton of help from our defense or special teams. The gameplan sucks and so does the qb and guards.

colonelbeef
12-13-2009, 08:31 PM
Wow, colon-beef is back!

A loss brings the roaches out of the closet, doesn't it?

I've been here the whole time Poops, now go be a good little cheerleader and pick up your cheer skirt at the drycleaners

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 08:32 PM
yeah if the offense was this bad last year they go 3-13. This team just can't score points against a decent defense without ton of help from our defense or special teams. The gameplan sucks and so does the qb and guards.

It's a good thing for the 2008 defense that they literally only faced TWO defenses that were ranked in the top 10. TWO. And here's what happened:

1. NE was ranked 8th. Gave up 19 pts per game. We scored 7.
2. TB was ranked 10th. Gave up 20 pts per game. We scored 16.

The ONLY two good defenses we faced and our AWESOME 2008 offenses folded like a lawn chair. They were the definition of overrated and padded their stats against scrubs.

Orton wouldn't have cost that unit anything.

colonelbeef
12-13-2009, 08:36 PM
I'd say you are. Last year's offense was not some record setting unit devoid of flaws. They turned it over too often and after week 4 averaged roughly 20 points a game, they also couldnt convert on 3rd and short or get tds in the redzone... the exact same as this season.

But considering some like to live in the land of fantasy, keep thinking last year's offense and this defense = championship.

:Broncos:

Last years' offense averaged 26 ppg with far more yards, first downs. This team averages less than 20 ppg- which is atrocious considering the era and skill position players in the team.

The difference is the QB- unless you want to say that Mcdaniwls is nowhere near the offensive mind that Shanahan is. Either way you cut it, the offense has regressed considerably while the defense has improved by 20 spots on the rankings.

Offense fail, QB fail.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 08:41 PM
yup, let's keep ignoring the schedule, the injuries and numerous other variables. The QB is the only thing that's changed.

lex
12-13-2009, 08:43 PM
It's a good thing for the 2008 defense that they literally only faced TWO defenses that were ranked in the top 10. TWO. And here's what happened:

1. NE was ranked 8th. Gave up 19 pts per game. We scored 7.
2. TB was ranked 10th. Gave up 20 pts per game. We scored 16.

The ONLY two good defenses we faced and our AWESOME 2008 offenses folded like a lawn chair. They were the definition of overrated and padded their stats against scrubs.

Orton wouldn't have cost that unit anything.

Atlanta was ranked 11th and we scored 24 against them. As you said, they gave up 20 pts a game last year but thats comparable to what Pitt and Baltimore are giving up this year. But again, it was a very young team. Its fairly common for young teams to be inconsistent. This year the only rookie seeing significant time on offense is Moreno.

Beantown Bronco
12-13-2009, 08:46 PM
Atlanta was ranked 11th and we scored 24 against them. As you said, they gave up 20 pts a game last year but thats comparable to what Pitt and Baltimore are giving up this year. But again, it was a very young team. Its fairly common for young teams to be inconsistent. This year the only rookie seeing significant time on offense is Moreno.

Pitt and Balt are giving up 16 and 18 pts per game this year.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 08:50 PM
Atlanta was ranked 11th and we scored 24 against them. As you said, they gave up 20 pts a game last year but thats comparable to what Pitt and Baltimore are giving up this year. But again, it was a very young team. Its fairly common for young teams to be inconsistent. This year the only rookie seeing significant time on offense is Moreno.

And this year we've played numerous top defenses and put up more points when given the opportunities. Last years offense struggled to even move the ball after the opening drive in the rare game against a good team.

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 08:51 PM
Last years' offense averaged 26 ppg with far more yards, first downs. This team averages less than 20 ppg- which is atrocious considering the era and skill position players in the team.

The difference is the QB- unless you want to say that Mcdaniwls is nowhere near the offensive mind that Shanahan is. Either way you cut it, the offense has regressed considerably while the defense has improved by 20 spots on the rankings.

Offense fail, QB fail.

As much as I think Orton sucks, Cutler isn't much better. Sure you may score more points with Cutler but you will give up more because of Cutler putting his defense in bad spots. Plus he's a cancer

lex
12-13-2009, 08:51 PM
Pitt and Balt are giving up 16 and 18 pts per game this year.

I computed Baltimores using their stats prior to today.

Popps
12-13-2009, 08:54 PM
I've been here the whole time Poops, now go be a good little cheerleader and pick up your cheer skirt at the drycleaners

Sure, you've been here... just laying in wait for a loss.

Congrats. Today is your day, colon-beef!

You and Bob should start threads together. Maybe share a user-name.

lex
12-13-2009, 08:55 PM
And this year we've played numerous top defenses and put up more points when given the opportunities. Last years offense struggled to even move the ball after the opening drive in the rare game against a good team.

Once again, last year there were several rookies and first year starters on the offense. With a year under their belt, the offense should have been able to step up their production this year. The talent and the experience should offset whatever perceived upgrade in defensive opponents.

Popps
12-13-2009, 08:57 PM
Once again, last year there were several rookies and first year starters on the offense. With a year under their belt, the offense should have been able to step up their production this year. The talent and the experience should offset whatever perceived upgrade in defensive opponents.

How did your Bears look today?

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 08:58 PM
And this year we've played numerous top defenses and put up more points when given the opportunities. Last years offense struggled to even move the ball after the opening drive in the rare game against a good team.

I don't agree. The offense has played terrible against most of the good defenses they played this year.

1. Cincinnati 12 points 6 came on fluke play
2. Dallas 14 points
3. Baltimore offense did nothing
4. Pittsburgh offense did nothing. only td was on a fumble return
5. Indianpollis 16 points even though defense gave them great field position with 3 turnovers
6. San Diego game 2 3 points

colonelbeef
12-13-2009, 09:00 PM
As much as I think Orton sucks, Cutler isn't much better. Sure you may score more points with Cutler but you will give up more because of Cutler putting his defense in bad spots. Plus he's a cancer

Bottom line, broncos once again need a QB. Orton will be a good enough stopgap but he certainly isn't the answer.

I hope mcdaniels and xanders decide to have more than 100 players on their draft board this year, the 1st rounder will go on a qb most likely

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 09:03 PM
Let me ask everyone

If Peyton Manning was a Bronco today would Shef Royal and Stokes been that invisable in this game?

Funny how avg QB's only throw to 1 or 2 guys and good and great QB's use all their weapons.

So either Stokes Shef and Royal can't get open or suck or Orton sucks

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 09:11 PM
Record: 9-7-0, Finished 2nd in NFC North Division
NFL Season Summary

Scored 375 points (23.4/g), 14th of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 350 points (21.9/g), 16th.
Differential of 25 points (1.6/g), 17th.
Expected W-L: 8.7-7.3.

Takeaway/Giveaway Differential +5 (0.3/g), 8th.

Simple Rating System: Total 2.1, Offense: 1.1, Defense: 1.0, SoS: 0.5, versus averages of 0.0.

Coached by Lovie Smith (9-7-0)

That's with Orton, no receivers, a competent running game, and an average defense.



Record: 5-7-0, Currently 3rd place in NFC North Division
NFL Season Summary

Scored 233 points (19.4/g), 22nd of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 270 points (22.5/g), 21st.
Differential of -37 points (-3.1/g), 21st.
Expected W-L: 5.0-7.0.

Takeaway/Giveaway Differential -4 (-0.3/g), 23rd.

Simple Rating System: Total -3.9, Offense: -2.4, Defense: -1.5, SoS: -0.8, versus averages of 0.0.

Coached by Lovie Smith (5-7-0)

That's with Cutler and the rest is mostly the same or had been considered improved to start the year. If you look at their turnover differential you'll notice that they actually have taken the ball away more consistently this year already because Cutler nearly doubled Orton's turnovers (in just 12 games) but the difference is a mere 9 in the turnover differential when comparing the years.

Now, who wants to bag on Orton some more? He took a team with an average defense, sh*tty receivers, a horrible offensive line, and a good running back (who has since gone on the missing persons list this season) to 23.4ppg.

Difference between Chicago last year and us this year? The ability to get the short yardage that could keep drives going and allow points to be scored. I've been like a broken record tonight. Until we can run in the end zone and short yardage we're spinning our tires if we try to fix anything else. This is the number one important thing that needs fixing.

Honestly. I want to have the second coming of John Elway as our QB as much as anybody. If McDaniels drafts a QB so be it. I'll be behind him 110%. I trust McDaniels' thoughts on QB completely.

But I honestly don't think we'll find a guy who is clearly better than him in this draft (certainly not without a year or two of development at least) and no a marginal upgrade isn't worth it. It's much better to stick with him and let him get an off season in this system to improve his knowledge of it.

The guys love Orton. We don't need to go and lose the locker room by drafting a brand new QB to replace the hard working and very well liked leader of the team. We're still recovering from the last time we did that.

MplsBronco
12-13-2009, 09:13 PM
Goddamn, Elway continues to taint many posters view of the QB position. As if once in a generation QB's just fall out of the sky or are sitting around waiting for work. The QB position is not the biggest problem with this team. Could it be better, sure. It could also be a hell of a lot worse. Orton is a QB this team can win with and I would even say win a SB with. But you have to build a TEAM!

Some of you fantasizing about drafting a QB next year as if it will automatically result in 6 SB victories are pathetic. You are the ones who don't have a clue about the game. You are also clearly still hurt by the loss of the almighty Cutler and his sexy arm. You build a champion through the front lines. Something that has been neglected for years under Shanny. We are still seeing the effects of this. It's not that hard.

Blaming Orton for the multiple short yardage failures is pathetic. Did anyone see the Colts last TD? A 3rd and goal from the 1? Yeah, they passed it. My main problem is with the playcallig today and I am a McD supporter, but he flat out sucked today. We extend those drives and we win the game.

Finally, how many SBs do the following starting QBs have?

Brees
Rivers
Palmer
McNabb
Romo
Marino
Kelly
Moon

Even the great Peyton Manning has just 1. Same with Favre! It's a pretty elusive accomplishment but some you expect it to be done every year.

Bronco Yoda
12-13-2009, 09:14 PM
Let me ask everyone

If Peyton Manning was a Bronco today would Shef Royal and Stokes been that invisable in this game?

Funny how avg QB's only throw to 1 or 2 guys and good and great QB's use all their weapons.

So either Stokes Shef and Royal can't get open or suck or Orton sucks

Our passing game was more than effective today. Look at our running game.

MplsBronco
12-13-2009, 09:16 PM
Let me ask everyone

If Peyton Manning was a Bronco today would Shef Royal and Stokes been that invisable in this game?

Funny how avg QB's only throw to 1 or 2 guys and good and great QB's use all their weapons.

So either Stokes Shef and Royal can't get open or suck or Orton sucks

Manning is a once in a generation player! ****, that's why there is only one and only Peyton Manning and he is friggen good. I hate him but I have to admit he is friggen good! It's stupid to sit there and ask what if we had Peyton today. Only one team does, get over it. And we were lucky have a guy like that but they don't come along all that often.

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 09:19 PM
we scored fewer than 20 points in a game 7 times already this year. That doesn't cut it. When was the last time a Manning or Brees lead team scored fewer than 20 points

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 09:23 PM
Manning is a once in a generation player! ****, that's why there is only one and only Peyton Manning and he is friggen good. I hate him but I have to admit he is friggen good! It's stupid to sit there and ask what if we had Peyton today. Only one team does, get over it. And we were lucky have a guy like that but they don't come along all that often.

I know but, my point was QB's that have above avg to great skillsets tend to use all their weapons all over the field. Where avg QB's tend to use 1 or 2 guys and field shrinks much easier for D's.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 09:24 PM
we scored fewer than 20 points in a game 7 times already this year. That doesn't cut it. When was the last time a Manning or Brees lead team scored fewer than 20 points

You're not helping your argument. Manning is a QB god and Brees has a running game that can get short yardage. Oh yeah. They're also two of only a handful of legitimate franchise QB's in the entire world. There's Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, and then there's everybody else.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 09:26 PM
I know but, my point was QB's that have above avg to great skillsets tend to use all their weapons vs avg QB tend to focus on 1 or 2 guys

I don't see Orton throwing into triple coverage, do you? If the man is open why does it matter if he's the same one guy? Maybe we should be considered blessed that we have a couple of guys that consistently get open when the play is called to their number?

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 09:29 PM
I can think of 18 starting qb's I'd rather have. 19 out of 32 isn't that great

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 09:30 PM
I don't see Orton throwing into triple coverage, do you? If the man is open why does it matter if he's the same one guy? Maybe we should be considered blessed that we have a couple of guys that consistently get open when the play is called to their number?

I don't get to see who's open or not watching on TV. I do know if you can throw the ball around to as different guys the tougher it is on D's. I blame everybody for that if they aren't using everybody enough but, as a fan I think biggest issue is Orton.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 09:37 PM
I don't get to see who's open or not watching on TV. I do know if you can throw the ball around to as different guys the tougher it is on D's. I blame everybody for that if they aren't using everybody enough but, as a fan I think biggest issue is Orton.

You're blaming him for hitting the open man in his progressions? Maybe it's the wording but that's what it sounds like.

snowspot66
12-13-2009, 09:38 PM
I can think of 18 starting qb's I'd rather have. 19 out of 32 isn't that great

Start naming them.

I can tell you now only a handful are true superstars that everybody seems to feel we NEED to win anything.

MplsBronco
12-13-2009, 09:38 PM
I don't get to see who's open or not watching on TV. I do know if you can throw the ball around to as different guys the tougher it is on D's. I blame everybody for that if they aren't using everybody enough but, as a fan I think biggest issue is Orton.

I will agree with you on this. I am wondering where the hell is Eddie, where is Schef? I watch the game tonight and I see D Jackson running wild. But it's Orton's first year with the team and I have to wonder about the playcalling. Most of the routes I see the recievers running are short routes. Why aren't we creating mismatches with Schef? Or are we and Orton isn't taking advantage? I don't know for sure but I still think Orton is fine. Are there other QB's I would like? Sure, there are other MLB sand DEs I would like as well. I just don't think Orton is the problem.

Finger Roll
12-13-2009, 09:55 PM
Start naming them.

I can tell you now only a handful are true superstars that everybody seems to feel we NEED to win anything.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Big Ben
5. Warner
6. Rivers
7.McNabb
8.Eli Manning
9. Brett Favre
10. Aaron Rodgers
11. Tony Romo
12. Joe Flacco
13. Matt Schaub
14. Matt Ryan
15. Carson Palmer
16. Matt Hasellbach
17. Jay Cutler
18. tie with David Garrard
19. Vince Young and Jason Campbell not far behind

Br0nc0Buster
12-13-2009, 09:56 PM
Blaming Kyle for what happened today is so freaking stupid

Kyle and Brandon Marshall played well, everyone else on offense took the day off
And and McD didnt help matters by running an injured Moreno up the gut over and over again

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 09:56 PM
I will agree with you on this. I am wondering where the hell is Eddie, where is Schef? I watch the game tonight and I see D Jackson running wild. But it's Orton's first year with the team and I have to wonder about the playcalling. Most of the routes I see the recievers running are short routes. Why aren't we creating mismatches with Schef? Or are we and Orton isn't taking advantage? I don't know for sure but I still think Orton is fine. Are there other QB's I would like? Sure, there are other MLB sand DEs I would like as well. I just don't think Orton is the problem.

Great points nice job.

NFLBRONCO
12-13-2009, 10:00 PM
You're blaming him for hitting the open man in his progressions? Maybe it's the wording but that's what it sounds like.

Not using Schef and Royal and Stokley more in gameplan is my issue. Either Orton is missing them or they aren't getting open. Our O would be alot tougher that way. With our running game isn't good either.

broncolife
12-13-2009, 10:52 PM
Denver Offensive Drives in 2008

DEN 41 Oak 14
TD
D forces a fumble at Den 17. Denver punts
Field Goal
TD
Punt
TD
Field Goal
TD
TD
Knee

41-0=41

Den 39 SD 38
Punt
TD
TD
TD great field position at the 48
Field goal
TD
Punt
Punt
Jay picked off at SDs 3. SD scores with a 66 yard td
TD and 2 point conversion to win game

39-0=39

Den 34 NO 32

TD
TD
Denver forces fumbler and returns it for a TD
Cutler picked at the 50 returned to the 36. TD NO
Field Goal
Saftey-D made a goaline stand at 1 and Hall got tackled in endzone with 27 seconds left in the half.
Punt
TD
Field Goal
Fumble Scheffler at the NO 8
Punt

34-9=25

Den 19 KC 33

Fumble! Royal at Den 26.Kc gets field goal
Punt
TD
Fumble! Marshall at Den 39 then returned to the 2. TD KC
Missed 28 yard field goal
Field Goal
Field Goal
Cutler picked at 50 than ran back to the 43.Kc fumbles at Den 45.
Cutler picked at kc 21 then returned to Den 47, Kc punts
Punt
Field Goal
Field Goal
Out of time

19-0=19

Den 16 TB 13

Punt
Punt
Field Goal
Punt
Field Goal
Punt
TD
Field Goal
D intercepts ball then fumbles it back
Punt
Runs out Clock

16-0=16

DEN 17 JAC 24

TD
D forces a fumble at Den 42. Cutler scrambles for 2 yards and fumbles it back.field goal jags
Cutlers long pass to Marshall picked off at Jags 6. Jags punt
Fumble! Marshall at the 6 then returned to jags 25.TD jags
Stopped on 4th and 1 on Jags 30.Pittman up the middle
D forces a fumble at Den 27. We punt
Field Goal
Punt
Punt
TD great return by shoebomber set us up at Jac 37
Punt

17-0=17

Den 7 Ne 41

Fumble! Andre Hall fumbles ball at NE 32.NE gets field goal
Fumble! Andre Hall fumbles ball at NE 38 they end up with at our 22 after return and penalties.NE gets field goal
Punt
Punt
Cutler picked off on a long pass intended for D. Jackson at Ne 16.TD for NE
Ramsey in
Fumble! Ramsey sacked at NE 44.Ball at 50. halftime
Cutler in
Punt
Cutler picked at NE 26.NE end up getting it at the 20 after penalites.TD NE
TD
Punt
Punt

7-0=7

Mia 26 Den 17

Cutler picked at Den 34. Miami Field goal
Punt
Cutler throws a pick 6 32 yards.
TD Royal with a great return to the 5
Punt
Punt
Punt
Field Goal
Missed 49 yard field goal
D intercepts ball at Den 29
77 yard td pass to Marshall nullified. offense pi
Cutler picked a few plays later at Den 44. Miami gets field goal
TD

17-7=10

Den 34 Cle 30

Missed 38 yard field goal
TD
Punt
Cutler picked off trying to pass to Marshall at the Den 33. TD Browns
Field Goal
halftime O was at Cle 45
Field Goal
TD 93 yards to Royal
D forces a fumble at Den 38. 28 yard td pass to Graham
TD

34-7=27

Den 24 Atl 20

TD
Punt
Missed 49 yard field goal
Punt
Punt
TD
D intercepts ball at Den 38. Den get Field goal
TD
Ran clock out

24-3=21

Oak 31 Den 10

Fumble! Bad handoff at Oak 7. Oak punts
Missed 47 yard field goal
Field goal.
Punt 89 yard td return by oak
Missed 43 yard field goal
TD
Punt
Cutler picked at Den 40. TD Oak
Stopped at Oak 38

10-0=10

Den 34 Nyj 17

Punt at the Nyj 39
D Forces a fumble and its returned 29 yards for a td by V.Fox. but of course next play Nyj get a 59 td.
TD Royal with a 59 yard td reception
Field goal
Punt
D Intercepts ball at Den 32. TD broncos
Field Goal
Punt
Hillis 14 yard Td nullified by holding.
Cutler picked in the endzone a few plays later.
Punt
TD pass to Stokley for 36 yards
Punt
Clock ran out

34-14=20

Den 24 KC 17

Punt
Cutler throws a 27 yard pick 6
TD Hillis with a 18 yard td
TD pass to Marshall
Field Goal
Missed 48 yard field goal
TD pass to Marshall
ran clock out

24-7=17

So our 2008 O averages about 20.5 points a game without the help of the D.

iforgotmypassword
12-13-2009, 11:02 PM
this is a good thread.... Although I would normally say stick with king neckbeard for anotehr year, this is definately the year of the QB in the draft... we have a top 10 pick, pull the trigger, Interior Line in round 2, Interior Line in round 3

Archer81
12-13-2009, 11:21 PM
Last years' offense averaged 26 ppg with far more yards, first downs. This team averages less than 20 ppg- which is atrocious considering the era and skill position players in the team.

The difference is the QB- unless you want to say that Mcdaniwls is nowhere near the offensive mind that Shanahan is. Either way you cut it, the offense has regressed considerably while the defense has improved by 20 spots on the rankings.

Offense fail, QB fail.


Last year's offense scored 23.1/pts a game. 16th in the NFL.

This year's offense scores 19.7/pts a game. 19th in the NFL.

Last year's offense gave the ball away 30 times. (TO ratio -17)

This year's offense has given the ball away 18 times. (TO ratio +2)

Neither offense are/was world beaters. So please stop pretending last year's offense was superbowl caliber. It wasnt.

:Broncos: