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Boltjolt
12-14-2009, 12:48 AM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Big Ben
5. Warner
6. Rivers
7.McNabb
8.Eli Manning
9. Brett Favre
10. Aaron Rodgers
11. Tony Romo
12. Joe Flacco
13. Matt Schaub
14. Matt Ryan
15. Carson Palmer
16. Matt Hasellbach
17. Jay Cutler
18. tie with David Garrard
19. Vince Young and Jason Campbell not far behind

Even i would rather have Orton than Cutler.

lex
12-14-2009, 12:51 AM
this is a good thread.... Although I would normally say stick with king neckbeard for anotehr year, this is definately the year of the QB in the draft... we have a top 10 pick, pull the trigger, Interior Line in round 2, Interior Line in round 3

We dont need defense?

Mile High Mojoe
12-14-2009, 01:10 AM
Look, I know it's fashionable to say the defense is bad, a work in progress, etc. I know we all want better defensive linemen, LB's, safeties, etc.

But we have got to draft offense, or hit the free agent pool. That offense squandered so many opportunities it's ridiculous. I don't know if it's Orton, I don't know if we need better guards or a new center, or what. We obviously don't need a WR. We're probably fine at RB. But our offense is what is limiting this football team, not the defense, at least at this point.

Defense failed to make a play late. I get that. But they handed the offense so many golden opportunities that were just thrown away.

Argeed on what you said about the D they blew the last series but they played a fine second half. The missed opportunities on offense killed us, not just in this game but all season. Terrible in the redzone,

This season start using Hillis on short yardage situations not Moreno, he's proven time again he's not a smash mouth RB between the tackles. Orton needs to stop looking for just Marshall to throw to. Orton needs to be able to get the ball deep.

Next season draft a QB more depth at OL and LB

misturanderson
12-14-2009, 01:24 AM
Argeed on what you said about the D they blew the last series but they played a fine second half. The missed opportunities on offense killed us, not just in this game but all season. Terrible in the redzone,

This season start using Hillis on short yardage situations not Moreno, he's proven time again he's not a smash mouth RB between the tackles. Orton needs to stop looking for just Marshall to throw to. Orton needs to be able to get the ball deep.

Next season draft a QB more depth at OL and LB

Dude, Hillis would have been gang tackled behind the line of scrimmage just like Moreno every time today. He isn't the greatest short yardage back in the history of the NFL like so many on here seem to think.

If the line falls down and lets 4 people into the backfield every 3rd or 4th and short, it doesn't matter who is back there unless maybe they are Barry Sanders.

iforgotmypassword
12-14-2009, 01:36 AM
We dont need defense?

Sure we need defense, but not a whole lot.... I say nab Richard Seymour, free agent, old Pats guy... great pick up, maybe another front 7 guy in free agency and a couple front 7's in the draft... but first three rounds I vote like I said, QB, Interior Oline, Interior Oline

fontaine
12-14-2009, 06:47 AM
There's plenty of like about this offense.

Orton is putting up a career season in his first year under a complicated offense even though he's had to work through multiple injuries to his ankle and thumb.

If we manage to shore up the interior of the OL with better players at C/RG then it would go a long way towards making this offense legit.

The biggest problems though are on 3rd down and in the red zone and I just think with another offseason in this system the players will just get better and more consistent in their execution which is basically what's required here.

barryr
12-14-2009, 06:52 AM
Broncos need help on both lines. That's what should be addressed first.

The DL just doesn't have any play makers. More depth at LB would be nice as well.

The guard play at LG needs improvement.

The playcalling at times hasn't been sharp, so hopefully McDaniels will improve in that area too.

Having a TE that can stretch the field would be nice since I'm not sold that Scheffler will ever be consistent enough. He drops or fumbles too often for my taste.

Lolad
12-14-2009, 08:24 AM
There's plenty of like about this offense.

Orton is putting up a career season in his first year under a complicated offense even though he's had to work through multiple injuries to his ankle and thumb.

If we manage to shore up the interior of the OL with better players at C/RG then it would go a long way towards making this offense legit.

The biggest problems though are on 3rd down and in the red zone and I just think with another offseason in this system the players will just get better and more consistent in their execution which is basically what's required here.

career season??? come on please stop crowning this guy! We need a QB that can stretch the field or at least has the threat of doing it. Brady could stretch the field at least thats why the pats were so good in this offense. We don't have that!

We need a QB with our 1st or 2nd pick. D in the rounds 2-4, O-line in 4-7. Throw in a

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 08:34 AM
career season??? come on please stop crowning this guy! We need a QB that can stretch the field or at least has the threat of doing it. Brady could stretch the field at least thats why the pats were so good in this offense. We don't have that!

We need a QB with our 1st or 2nd pick. D in the rounds 2-4, O-line in 4-7. Throw in a

Actually, we need the receivers to stretch the field. None of our guys really has that Randy Moss type ability to get downfield and simply outrun guys. The only time we showed we could stretch the field are on broken plays by the defense. None of our guys can just blow past the D when matched up one on one.

We can win with this guy. We already have.

Now if when we do get to the playoffs, he completely craps his pants and shows that he's not even close to being up to the challenge, I'll start to believe that we should look to the future. But I have seen NOTHING to this point to make me believe that this is the case. The guy has a winning record against the teams that are likely going to be in the playoffs. He's outplayed Brady, Romo and Eli Manning in head to head matches. He's played neck and neck with (or arguably outplayed) Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer in head to head matches. He's led us on 90+ yard scoring drives when we've been down late. He has NEVER cost us a game that we were winning in the 4th quarter.

All of this while playing with significant injuries.

Has he struggled in some games? Absolutely. Is he better than guys like Brady, Manning and Brees? No. I'm not saying that, despite what the reading challenged among you want to believe. Can he play with these guys when our defense shows up and does their job? You bet. And THAT is a winning formula.

TailgateNut
12-14-2009, 08:41 AM
career season??? come on please stop crowning this guy! We need a QB that can stretch the field or at least has the threat of doing it. Brady could stretch the field at least thats why the pats were so good in this offense. We don't have that!

We need a QB with our 1st or 2nd pick. D in the rounds 2-4, O-line in 4-7. Throw in a


:spit:


Yep:spit:looking at Cutler on the field tells me he's the biggest issue we have.:spit:

jhns
12-14-2009, 08:47 AM
Actually, we need the receivers to stretch the field. None of our guys really has that Randy Moss type ability to get downfield and simply outrun guys. The only time we showed we could stretch the field are on broken plays by the defense. None of our guys can just blow past the D when matched up one on one.

We can win with this guy. We already have.

Now if when we do get to the playoffs, he completely craps his pants and shows that he's not even close to being up to the challenge, I'll start to believe that we should look to the future. But I have seen NOTHING to this point to make me believe that this is the case. The guy has a winning record against the teams that are likely going to be in the playoffs. He's outplayed Brady, Romo and Eli Manning in head to head matches. He's played neck and neck with (or arguably outplayed) Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer in head to head matches. He's led us on 90+ yard scoring drives when we've been down late. He has NEVER cost us a game that we were winning in the 4th quarter.

All of this while playing with significant injuries.

Has he struggled in some games? Absolutely. Is he better than guys like Brady, Manning and Brees? No. I'm not saying that, despite what the reading challenged among you want to believe. Can he play with these guys when our defense shows up and does their job? You bet. And THAT is a winning formula.

"If the team carries Orton, he's golden!"

Yeah, and everyone elses job is much harder with the limited QB. The defense has a ton of pressure at all times and the run game doesn't get any help because everyone stacks the box. Who cares about building a complete team when you have a nice guy?

This team needs a QB, some interior o-line, and some depth on defense this offseason. Cutler is something special. He was special enough that he got a ton of Bronco fans to only care about personalities instead of production. In football of all things. Pretty crazy.

rastaman
12-14-2009, 09:02 AM
Dude, Hillis would have been gang tackled behind the line of scrimmage just like Moreno every time today. He isn't the greatest short yardage back in the history of the NFL like so many on here seem to think.

If the line falls down and lets 4 people into the backfield every 3rd or 4th and short, it doesn't matter who is back there unless maybe they are Barry Sanders.

So are you insinuating that had Hillis gotten the 23 carries instead of Moreno the out come would have been the same???? Where's your proof that Hillis would have been ganged tackled just b/c Moreno was ganged tackled. Who knows the OL would have been more inspired to block better for Hillis b/c they know Hillis is a smash mouth runner that runs with power and who can drag people around.

We all saw what Moreno did against the Colts b/c he has 23 carries and a couple of passes thrown his way. However, the fans don't know how Hillis would have performed b/c Hillis was never given the opportunity to contribute let alone perform.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 09:04 AM
"If the team carries Orton, he's golden!"

He hasn't had to be carried since the Oakland game.

Yeah, and everyone elses job is much harder with the limited QB. The defense has a ton of pressure at all times

Yup, being out there for significantly less plays and time of possession than the opposition is REALLY stressful.

and the run game doesn't get any help because everyone stacks the box.

This cannot be blamed solely on the QB. If receivers can get open deep with any consistency, this wouldn't be an issue.

Who cares about building a complete team when you have a nice guy?

Complete teams are built all the time with QBs with less production than Orton is providing.

This team needs a QB, some interior o-line, and some depth on defense this offseason. Cutler is something special. He was special enough that he got a ton of Bronco fans to only care about personalities instead of production. In football of all things. Pretty crazy.

Production? Orton's on pace for 3,600 yards, 20 TDs, 10 INTs, and a QB rating of about 90. That is plenty of production for a team (not to mention a team in transition and one with significant issues on the OLine) that wants balance in the run game and passing game.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 09:05 AM
Who knows the OL would have been more inspired to block better for Hillis b/c they know Hillis is a smash mouth runner that runs with power and who can drag people around.

This is a new low. And that's saying something.

TailgateNut
12-14-2009, 09:08 AM
He hasn't had to be carried since the Oakland game.



Yup, being out there for significantly less plays and time of possession than the opposition is REALLY stressful.



This cannot be blamed solely on the QB. If receivers can get open deep with any consistency, this wouldn't be an issue.



Complete teams are built all the time with QBs with less production than Orton is providing.



Production? Orton's on pace for 3,600 yards, 20 TDs, 10 INTs, and a QB rating of about 90. That is plenty of production for a team (not to mention a team in transition and one with significant issues on the OLine) that wants balance in the run game and passing game.


Here we go again.

Don't you know that jhns is always right.:giggle: He's the guru when it comes to football. All of the head coaches, staff, scouts and assistants play second fiddle to the "wonder BOY".

rastaman
12-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Actually, we need the receivers to stretch the field. None of our guys really has that Randy Moss type ability to get downfield and simply outrun guys. The only time we showed we could stretch the field are on broken plays by the defense. None of our guys can just blow past the D when matched up one on one.

The only question with that theory is can Orton accurately throw a deep ball let alone get the ball down the field deep period???

We can win with this guy. We already have.

Now if when we do get to the playoffs, he completely craps his pants and shows that he's not even close to being up to the challenge, I'll start to believe that we should look to the future. But I have seen NOTHING to this point to make me believe that this is the case. The guy has a winning record against the teams that are likely going to be in the playoffs. He's outplayed Brady, Romo and Eli Manning in head to head matches. He's played neck and neck with (or arguably outplayed) Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer in head to head matches. He's led us on 90+ yard scoring drives when we've been down late. He has NEVER cost us a game that we were winning in the 4th quarter.

Why do we need to wait and see what Orton does in the playoffs. When Kyle has faced playoff teams during the regular season, these teams were able to expose and exploit his limited capability as a QB.

All of this while playing with significant injuries.

Has he struggled in some games? Absolutely. Is he better than guys like Brady, Manning and Brees? No. I'm not saying that, despite what the reading challenged among you want to believe. Can he play with these guys when our defense shows up and does their job? You bet. And THAT is a winning formula.

Orton has proven his limited ability when he's tasked to throw 3 or 4 TD's during a game. The defense can't carry Orton forever. Orton barely won the games when the Defense held teams to 17-20 points. Face it man Orton is a high maintenance incubator QB that cannot win games on his limited talent alone. Had it not been for BMarsh spectacular performance with YAC brillance, Kyle's stats against the Colts would have been embarrasing to say the least.

jhns
12-14-2009, 09:24 AM
He hasn't had to be carried since the Oakland game.



Yup, being out there for significantly less plays and time of possession than the opposition is REALLY stressful.



This cannot be blamed solely on the QB. If receivers can get open deep with any consistency, this wouldn't be an issue.



Complete teams are built all the time with QBs with less production than Orton is providing.



Production? Orton's on pace for 3,600 yards, 20 TDs, 10 INTs, and a QB rating of about 90. That is plenty of production for a team (not to mention a team in transition and one with significant issues on the OLine) that wants balance in the run game and passing game.

If the defense and run game don't play great (not good but great) games, this team losses and looks bad doing it.

Significantly less time? Maybe against the bad teams. That's not real helpful when the goal is a SB.

Receivers are open deep all the time. Orton can't find open guys if they aren't within 10 feet of him. If he does find them, the throw is way behind or way in front of them. Luckily he only attempts throws beyond 10 feet when guys don't have defenders within 20 yards of them, otherwise he would have tons of picks.

No, complete teams are built with accurate QBs that make good decisions. Orton doesn't have accuracy. The ball hits the ground 3 feet in front of wide open receivers that are 5 feet from him. This is not the systems fault.

With what Orton is doing, I could get that production. Everything is thrown behind the line. He doesn't throw to routes beyond 10 yards. Just look at this last game. A rookie could do what he is doing with some legitimate hopes of getting better. No system is going to make Orton more accurate.

jhns
12-14-2009, 09:27 AM
Here we go again.

Don't you know that jhns is always right.:giggle: He's the guru when it comes to football. All of the head coaches, staff, scouts and assistants play second fiddle to the "wonder BOY".

See, tailgate has figured it out. I'm smarter than all of you. I can't do much about this fact other than say get over it.

rastaman
12-14-2009, 09:28 AM
I don't see Orton throwing into triple coverage, do you? If the man is open why does it matter if he's the same one guy? Maybe we should be considered blessed that we have a couple of guys that consistently get open when the play is called to their number?

Snow lets also be honest and admit that Orton has yet to show consistency with hitting his receivers in stride or putting the ball where the WR's can do the most damage.

Orton has shown over and over that his passes are inconsistent and in many cases he throws the ball too low, behind the WR, to high where the receivers must leave their to risk injury to catch the ball or risk injury going over the middle b/c Orton doesn't put the necessary velocity on the ball so the receiver can protect themselves.

Point is, Orton stats look decent b/c of the tallent our WR's have with the YAC. Orton is a double edge sword type of QB, whereas he can manage the game to a win. But Orton can also manage your team into loses as well. I have yet to see Orton get the blame for his performance.

Its either the OL's fault for not allowing Orton 8-10 seconds of protection, its the OL fault for not opening up holes for the RB, or its the RB's fault for not running the ball efficiently enough, or its the defences fault they can't hold every team to 17 points or less!

Sooner or later the reality must set in that Orton is a limited-stop gap QB who should and will be a career backup QB. You ask McD who would he rather have.....Cassel or Orton? McD would say Cassel hands down.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Why do we need to wait and see what Orton does in the playoffs. When Kyle has faced playoff teams during the regular season, these teams were able to expose and exploit his limited capability as a QB.

What? Dallas he was awesome. NE he was awesome. NY he was awesome. Indy he was very good. SD he was decent.

What games against playoff teams are you talking about? Neither Pitt nor Baltimore are making the playoffs.

Orton has proven his limited ability when he's tasked to throw 3 or 4 TD's during a game.

How many QBs average 3 or 4 TDs a game?

The defense can't carry Orton forever.

Aside from the Thanksgiving game, the defense hasn't exactly been top shelf for 4 quarters since week 3.

Orton barely won the games when the Defense held teams to 17-20 points. .

I hate it when my QB barely wins games.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 09:49 AM
If the defense and run game don't play great (not good but great) games, this team losses and looks bad doing it.

False. Pats game and 1st SD game come to mind immediately.


Receivers are open deep all the time. Orton can't find open guys if they aren't within 10 feet of him.

Proof please.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 09:58 AM
First you say this:

Snow lets also be honest and admit that Orton has yet to show consistency with hitting his receivers in stride or putting the ball where the WR's can do the most damage.

Orton has shown over and over that his passes are inconsistent and in many cases he throws the ball too low, behind the WR, to high where the receivers must leave their to risk injury to catch the ball or risk injury going over the middle b/c Orton doesn't put the necessary velocity on the ball so the receiver can protect themselves.

and then you say this:

Point is, Orton stats look decent b/c of the tallent our WR's have with the YAC.

Well, which is it? How can the guys have such high YAC if they are forced to slow down or dive to the ground to catch his ridiculously inaccurate passes?

Unreal.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 10:01 AM
You ask McD who would he rather have.....Cassel or Orton? McD would say Cassel hands down.

If he really wanted Cassel, he would've gotten him. The price was a freaking 2nd rounder for Cassel and Vrabel. Given the wheeling and dealing he engaged in on draft day, do you really think he was not willing to give up a 2nd rounder for his "dream QB" and Vrabel?

jhns
12-14-2009, 10:03 AM
False. Pats game and 1st SD game come to mind immediately.

Proof please.

The offense was good against the Pats. I shouldn't act like it is always. A few times this year, Orton has actually looked like an NFL QB. His inconsistency is my problem though (well, that and the lack of accuracy). I think the multiple non-offensive TDs are what gave us the edge in the SD game.

What games do you have recorded? I have all of them and will get you examples in any game you like. Will these examples make you stop acting like our receivers all just happened to get far worse when Orton came? Other than Marshall, who also gets open deep, they all look a lot worse this season.

Cito Pelon
12-14-2009, 10:29 AM
Goddamn, Elway continues to taint many posters view of the QB position. As if once in a generation QB's just fall out of the sky or are sitting around waiting for work. The QB position is not the biggest problem with this team. Could it be better, sure. It could also be a hell of a lot worse. Orton is a QB this team can win with and I would even say win a SB with. But you have to build a TEAM!

Some of you fantasizing about drafting a QB next year as if it will automatically result in 6 SB victories are pathetic. You are the ones who don't have a clue about the game. You are also clearly still hurt by the loss of the almighty Cutler and his sexy arm. You build a champion through the front lines. Something that has been neglected for years under Shanny. We are still seeing the effects of this. It's not that hard.

Blaming Orton for the multiple short yardage failures is pathetic. Did anyone see the Colts last TD? A 3rd and goal from the 1? Yeah, they passed it. My main problem is with the playcallig today and I am a McD supporter, but he flat out sucked today. We extend those drives and we win the game.

Finally, how many SBs do the following starting QBs have?

Brees
Rivers
Palmer
McNabb
Romo
Marino
Kelly
Moon

Even the great Peyton Manning has just 1. Same with Favre! It's a pretty elusive accomplishment but some you expect it to be done every year.

Yes, you have to build a TEAM.

Hell, this thread's negativity is the same bunch of posters that predicted Denver would be last place in the AFCW this season, predicted in no uncertain terms a disaster of a season followed by losing seasons for the next decade.

Their credibility is zero, they really don't count in NFL discussions.

They're pretty much just here, like flu and sewage. You lament their presence, but they're not going away.

TailgateNut
12-14-2009, 10:33 AM
Yes, you have to build a TEAM.

Hell, this thread's negativity is the same bunch of posters that predicted Denver would be last place in the AFCW this season, predicted in no uncertain terms a disaster of a season followed by losing seasons for the next decade.

Their credibility is zero, they really don't count in NFL discussions.

They're pretty much just here, like flu and sewage. You lament their presence, but they're not going away.

......regardless, jhns, colonelbeef and rasta will continue to act as if they know something about the game, and know more about personell decisions than those who are hired/ charged with making them in "real life".

jhns
12-14-2009, 10:38 AM
What will be funny is seeing the responses from some of you when McDaniels does bring in another QB this offseason. Orton is in his last year and there isn't even a rumor that we have talked about another contract. Some of you act like you know McDaniels loves Ortons play. You act like Orton is what is winning games for this team. I am curious to see what McDaniels really thinks of this and I am curious if you all are going to still think Orton is great when he gets replaced.

jhns
12-14-2009, 10:42 AM
......regardless, jhns, colonelbeef and rasta will continue to act as if they know something about the game, and know more about personall decisions than those who are hired/ charged with making them in "real life".

So in Order for the coaching staff to not think Orton is the future, they need to bench him now? Do you even think before posting? How do you know what they are thinking? This forum has some interesting logic.

rastaman
12-14-2009, 10:54 AM
First you say this:



and then you say this:



Well, which is it? How can the guys have such high YAC if they are forced to slow down or dive to the ground to catch his ridiculously inaccurate passes?

Unreal.

No it isn't unreal! On avg Orton seldom hits his WR's in stride! and has thrown horrible passes to his wideouts, it just that Kyles receivers have immense talents to make something out of nothing. Not to mention the weak passes he throws to his receivers over the middle possible setting up his receivers for injury. I'm still waiting for Orton to hit Royal with passes that aren't behind him or that Royal isn't required to jump around like a Jack Rabbit.

Makes you wonder what type of QB Brandon would rather play for over his career. Does Marshall want to play his entire career with a QB as limited and inaccurate as Orton? I doubt it. The only reason Brandon hasn't openly critizied Orton for his inconsistent passes is due to the fact Marshall is trying to get paid! And Orton for the most part must realize that the team will at some point lose confidence in him down the road if his inconsistent play continues

colonelbeef
12-14-2009, 10:54 AM
Yes, you have to build a TEAM.

Hell, this thread's negativity is the same bunch of posters that predicted Denver would be last place in the AFCW this season, predicted in no uncertain terms a disaster of a season followed by losing seasons for the next decade.

Their credibility is zero, they really don't count in NFL discussions.

They're pretty much just here, like flu and sewage. You lament their presence, but they're not going away.

Waaaaaaah.

Stop crying you pussy, it's getting tiresome.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 10:54 AM
What will be funny is seeing the responses from some of you when McDaniels does bring in another QB this offseason.

Depends on where he's picked. Using a 1st rounder on a QB will spark quite a different discussion than a 2nd day QB pick would.

Orton is in his last year and there isn't even a rumor that we have talked about another contract.

Same goes for all our RFA's. Does that mean we're not going to keep Marshall, Dumervil, Schef, or Kuper either? Of course not.

Some of you act like you know McDaniels loves Ortons play. You act like Orton is what is winning games for this team. I am curious to see what McDaniels really thinks of this

McD has gone out of his way to praise Orton specifically after several games this season.

and I am curious if you all are going to still think Orton is great when he gets replaced.

I will always appreciate what he has done this year both on and off the field. If he does get replaced next year, then my comments about him (not involving what he did here) will vary depending on whether he remains on the team as a backup or no longer dons the Broncos uniform.

rastaman
12-14-2009, 10:55 AM
......regardless, jhns, colonelbeef and rasta will continue to act as if they know something about the game, and know more about personell decisions than those who are hired/ charged with making them in "real life".

Naw Tailgate....secretly we know the Orton supporters are right.....they always are.

TailgateNut
12-14-2009, 10:59 AM
Waaaaaaah.

Stop crying you p***Y, it's getting tiresome.

^says the person who was crying about the Broncos being sent back to the stone age due to the ****ler trade.:spit:

TailgateNut
12-14-2009, 11:01 AM
Naw Tailgate....secretly we know the Orton supporters are right.....they always are.

WELL, we ARE/WERE. Orton wasn't a bad move. And, our "good ridance" comments re ****ler do make sense.

TonyR
12-14-2009, 11:25 AM
Is there perhaps a "middle ground" position in this discussion?

I think we can all agree that the offense isn't good enough right now. Perhaps we can also all agree that Orton isn't the whole problem. Where we're getting caught up is on how much of the problem is Kyle Orton.

We also probably all agree that the team could potentially upgrade the QB position via the draft, but again disagree on how important this need is and how high a pick they should spend.

But I fear what this argument really boils down to is whether or not we'd be better off with Jay Cutler. Personally I think it could go either way but we wouldn't be much better or worse. With Cutler we'd have more yards and probably more points, but because of the increased turnovers the defense would have allowed more points. So on paper the offense would look better but the defense would look worse and the end results would be very similar.

So at the end of the day, in the ideal scenario, we'd have a QB who was "better" than Kyle Orton but whose name would not be Jay Cutler. And we'd also have an O-line that was bigger and better at the G and C positions which would improve our run production and short yardage and red zone effectiveness.

rastaman
12-14-2009, 11:29 AM
Waaaaaaah.

Stop crying you p***Y, it's getting tiresome.

Maybe we need to start a thread where fans who deal in the reality can post and have another thread where fans who are homers and who are in denial can go and post. Both threads shoulld be open for all fans to visit and continue to post their comments. Point is each fan will know what type of thread they are entering and what to expect.

MplsBronco
12-14-2009, 11:32 AM
Maybe we need to start a thread where fans who deal in the reality can post and have another thread where fans who are homers and who are in denial can go and post. Both threads shoulld be open for all fans to visit and continue to post their comments. Point is each fan will know what type of thread they are entering and what to expect.

What was your stance on the Cutler trade?

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Is there perhaps a "middle ground" position in this discussion?

Without quoting the entire post, I'll say I agree with all of it.

colonelbeef
12-14-2009, 11:58 AM
Is there perhaps a "middle ground" position in this discussion?

I think we can all agree that the offense isn't good enough right now. Perhaps we can also all agree that Orton isn't the whole problem. Where we're getting caught up is on how much of the problem is Kyle Orton.

We also probably all agree that the team could potentially upgrade the QB position via the draft, but again disagree on how important this need is and how high a pick they should spend.

But I fear what this argument really boils down to is whether or not we'd be better off with Jay Cutler. Personally I think it could go either way but we wouldn't be much better or worse. With Cutler we'd have more yards and probably more points, but because of the increased turnovers the defense would have allowed more points. So on paper the offense would look better but the defense would look worse and the end results would be very similar.

So at the end of the day, in the ideal scenario, we'd have a QB who was "better" than Kyle Orton but whose name would not be Jay Cutler. And we'd also have an O-line that was bigger and better at the G and C positions which would improve our run production and short yardage and red zone effectiveness.

Orton is definitely not the whole problem, but I do think he limits what can be done offensively. Orton is immobile like Peyton Manning, with half the release speed and half the arm in general. He is tough and not afraid to take a hit, and commands the huddle, which is fantastic to see, makes him easy to root for. I think if you get someone to groom, he is probably ideal to hold down the fort while a draftee gets up to speed and the line is tinkered with.

jhns
12-14-2009, 12:09 PM
Is there perhaps a "middle ground" position in this discussion?

I think we can all agree that the offense isn't good enough right now. Perhaps we can also all agree that Orton isn't the whole problem. Where we're getting caught up is on how much of the problem is Kyle Orton.

We also probably all agree that the team could potentially upgrade the QB position via the draft, but again disagree on how important this need is and how high a pick they should spend.

But I fear what this argument really boils down to is whether or not we'd be better off with Jay Cutler. Personally I think it could go either way but we wouldn't be much better or worse. With Cutler we'd have more yards and probably more points, but because of the increased turnovers the defense would have allowed more points. So on paper the offense would look better but the defense would look worse and the end results would be very similar.

So at the end of the day, in the ideal scenario, we'd have a QB who was "better" than Kyle Orton but whose name would not be Jay Cutler. And we'd also have an O-line that was bigger and better at the G and C positions which would improve our run production and short yardage and red zone effectiveness.

I don't get your post. I agree with the top part and I have never claimed Orton is the only problem. The short yardage running game has been a problem for years. I don't agree that the pass blocking is horrible like others and simply counting the seconds each play will show we aren't bad at it.

What I don't get is the Cutler talk. What does Cutler have to do with improving the offense? We can't go get him back. What he could have/would have done here means nothing when discussing how to fix the offense that isn't producing. People need to move on from Cutler.

Atwater His Ass
12-14-2009, 03:27 PM
What will be funny is seeing the responses from some of you when McDaniels does bring in another QB this offseason. Orton is in his last year and there isn't even a rumor that we have talked about another contract. Some of you act like you know McDaniels loves Ortons play. You act like Orton is what is winning games for this team. I am curious to see what McDaniels really thinks of this and I am curious if you all are going to still think Orton is great when he gets replaced.

You already know how that song and dance goes. These are the same guys that loved Culter when he was here, and then did a completed 180 and turned on him when he left.

With such fickle fans, it's no wonder no one wants to play QB in Denver.

MplsBronco
12-14-2009, 03:32 PM
You already know how that song and dance goes. These are the same guys that loved Culter when he was here, and then did a completed 180 and turned on him when he left.

With such fickle fans, it's no wonder no one wants to play QB in Denver.

Damn right I turned on Cutler. He spit on this franchise and it's fans and any true fan would/should turn on that POS.

Orton on the other had is not a primadonna, but a blue-collar guy that knows his limitations and would never act the way Cutler has.

Atwater His Ass
12-14-2009, 03:39 PM
But I fear what this argument really boils down to is whether or not we'd be better off with Jay Cutler. Personally I think it could go either way but we wouldn't be much better or worse. With Cutler we'd have more yards and probably more points, but because of the increased turnovers the defense would have allowed more points. So on paper the offense would look better but the defense would look worse and the end results would be very similar.



The biggest problem I have with the Culter situation is that I firmly believe McD could have been a great coach and mentor to the guy and helped him turn the corner.

If nothing else, Mike Shanahan knows QB's. Shanahan thought Culter was the real deal and firmly believed he could be an elite QB. He ran a guy who just took us the AFCCG out of town in order to do it. That's how much he believed it.

I don't believe Cutler is in a very good situation at all in Chicago. With the endorsement of Shanahan and the proven ability of McD with QB's, Denver had a great opportunity to be an elite team NOW. Espcially considering the vast, unforseen improvement on the defensive side with Nolan. It's a travesty that this organization let that opportunity fall through the cracks because of an inexperienced new head coach and his inability to handle players.

Look at the difference between Matt Cassell with McD in NE and without McD in KC. Yeah, NE and KC are two very different teams. But, if all it took was a "system" guy in the right system with the right coach, Kyle Orton, according to most people here, should be tearing up the league right now. But he's not.

Hell, people are calling (in this very thread) a guy who's thrown for about 3000 yards and 16 TD's a "career" year (paced for 3500 and 20 TD's). While a guy that threw for 4500 yards and 25 TD's IN HIS SECOND YEAR AS A STARTER get's laughed out of town.

Atwater His Ass
12-14-2009, 03:40 PM
Damn right I turned on Cutler. He spit on this franchise and it's fans and any true fan would/should turn on that POS.

Orton on the other had is not a primadonna, but a blue-collar guy that knows his limitations and would never act the way Cutler has.

ahh, the infamous "im a better fan than you" card.

so original.

Paladin
12-14-2009, 03:46 PM
.....While a guy that threw for 4500 yards and 25 TD's IN HIS SECOND YEAR AS A STARTER get's laughed out of town.

He whined his way out of town, and he refused to talk with Bowlen.

Guess you weren't paying attention, eh?

MplsBronco
12-14-2009, 03:47 PM
ahh, the infamous "im a better fan than you" card.

so original.

If that's how you want to take it, too bad for you.

Paladin
12-14-2009, 03:48 PM
ahh, the infamous "im a better fan than you" card.

so original.

Jeez. You got a loose screw. Hyperventilate very much, do you?

MplsBronco
12-14-2009, 03:48 PM
He whined his way out of town, and he refused to talk with Bowlen.

Guess you weren't paying attention, eh?

No shiat, is this guy serious?

Cito Pelon
12-14-2009, 03:49 PM
we scored fewer than 20 points in a game 7 times already this year. That doesn't cut it. When was the last time a Manning or Brees lead team scored fewer than 20 points

We can discuss this say about March 2010. Its inappropriate right now. We're in the stretch run.

Cito Pelon
12-14-2009, 03:52 PM
I know but, my point was QB's that have above avg to great skillsets tend to use all their weapons all over the field. Where avg QB's tend to use 1 or 2 guys and field shrinks much easier for D's.

Let's see how it pans out.

Mr.Meanie
12-14-2009, 04:09 PM
You already know how that song and dance goes. These are the same guys that loved Culter when he was here, and then did a completed 180 and turned on him when he left.

With such fickle fans, it's no wonder no one wants to play QB in Denver.

Wait a second... you mean Broncos fans were supportive of the starting QB, and then when he left turned on him and started supporting the new Broncos starting QB?

Yeah that's really fickle. Terrible Broncos fans, them. ::)

rastaman
12-14-2009, 04:31 PM
What was your stance on the Cutler trade?

My stance is Bowlen and McD conspired together to try and trade Cutler for Cassel behind Cutlers back and attempted to lie about it until they found out the lies wouldn't stand up to the test of scrutiny.

Mile High Mojoe
12-14-2009, 05:09 PM
Snow lets also be honest and admit that Orton has yet to show consistency with hitting his receivers in stride or putting the ball where the WR's can do the most damage.

Orton has shown over and over that his passes are inconsistent and in many cases he throws the ball too low, behind the WR, to high where the receivers must leave their to risk injury to catch the ball or risk injury going over the middle b/c Orton doesn't put the necessary velocity on the ball so the receiver can protect themselves.

Point is, Orton stats look decent b/c of the tallent our WR's have with the YAC. Orton is a double edge sword type of QB, whereas he can manage the game to a win. But Orton can also manage your team into loses as well. I have yet to see Orton get the blame for his performance.

Its either the OL's fault for not allowing Orton 8-10 seconds of protection, its the OL fault for not opening up holes for the RB, or its the RB's fault for not running the ball efficiently enough, or its the defences fault they can't hold every team to 17 points or less!

Sooner or later the reality must set in that Orton is a limited-stop gap QB who should and will be a career backup QB. You ask McD who would he rather have.....Cassel or Orton? McD would say Cassel hands down.This post is spot on. I've been saying the same things all season.^5

misturanderson
12-14-2009, 05:16 PM
This post is spot on. I've been saying the same things all season.^5

Agreeing with rastamn isn't something you should be excited about.

Mile High Mojoe
12-14-2009, 05:18 PM
Agreeing with rastamn isn't something you should be excited about.I do agree with all of it except the part about Cassell, he's totally flamed out. I was never in favor of signing him thank god we didn't.

lex
12-14-2009, 06:05 PM
Agreeing with rastamn isn't something you should be excited about.

Ad hominem

TonyR
12-14-2009, 07:08 PM
...it's no wonder no one wants to play QB in Denver.

No one wants to play QB in Denver?

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 07:13 PM
Hell, people are calling (in this very thread) a guy who's thrown for about 3000 yards and 16 TD's a "career" year (paced for 3500 and 20 TD's). While a guy that threw for 4500 yards and 25 TD's IN HIS SECOND YEAR AS A STARTER get's laughed out of town.

You have a problem with this because your definition of "career year" is incorrect. It is not in any way a comparison of one guy to another.

When one says that someone is having a "career year", they are saying that statistically they are having the best year of their career. By definition, this IS a career year for Orton to this point. It's far and away the best season he's ever had.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2009, 07:15 PM
My stance is Bowlen and McD conspired together to try and trade Cutler for Cassel behind Cutlers back and attempted to lie about it until they found out the lies wouldn't stand up to the test of scrutiny.

If this were true, then Cassel would be a Bronco today. For FAR less than they gave up for Alphonso Smith, they could've had Cassel AND Vrabel. There's no way they wouldn't have offered more than KC did.

Archer81
12-14-2009, 07:22 PM
My stance is Bowlen and McD conspired together to try and trade Cutler for Cassel behind Cutlers back and attempted to lie about it until they found out the lies wouldn't stand up to the test of scrutiny.


Wow.

You must enjoy being wrong alot.


:Broncos:

Cito Pelon
12-14-2009, 07:29 PM
This post is spot on. I've been saying the same things all season.^5

Get giddy about your Orton bashing when the season is over, eh?

Cito Pelon
12-14-2009, 07:38 PM
If this were true, then Cassel would be a Bronco today. For FAR less than they gave up for Alphonso Smith, they could've had Cassel AND Vrabel. There's no way they wouldn't have offered more than KC did.

You're attempting to reason with a poseur. Don't bother . . . .

colonelbeef
12-14-2009, 10:09 PM
He whined his way out of town, and he refused to talk with Bowlen.

Guess you weren't paying attention, eh?

Elway did the same thing to the Colts.

How do you feel about that whiny bastard John Elway?

bowtown
12-14-2009, 10:13 PM
Elway did the same thing to the Colts.

How do you feel about that whiny bastard John Elway?

Last time I checked Elway never threw 20 ints for the Chicago Bears while missing the playoffs and calling Denver fans sub par, and thus garnering us a higher draft pick... hey on second thought, I guess I do like the Frown Cannon nearly as much.

Dagmar
12-14-2009, 10:18 PM
Last time I checked Elway never threw 20 ints for the Chicago Bears while missing the playoffs and calling Denver fans sub par, and thus garnering us a higher draft pick... hey on second thought, I guess I do like the Frown Cannon nearly as much.

22 ints.

bowtown
12-14-2009, 10:20 PM
22 ints.

My bad. Sorry Colonbeef!

colonelbeef
12-14-2009, 10:25 PM
My bad. Sorry Colonbeef!

elway had his share of crappy years statistically, but that isn't the point here.

If we are going to have a grown up conversation, at least read the posts before you stick your moronic nose into them

Paladin
12-14-2009, 10:27 PM
My stance is Bowlen and McD conspired together to try and trade Cutler for Cassel behind Cutlers back and attempted to lie about it until they found out the lies wouldn't stand up to the test of scrutiny.

What d'ya got on the JFK thing? The Trilateral Commission? What's your take on the UFO stuff? Did the US really land a man on the moon"?


Freaking puke......

iforgotmypassword
12-14-2009, 10:29 PM
Back to fixing the offense.... hows this for an idea

Gerhart in the 2nd, Armani Edwards in the 4th.... Run a Wing T Wildcat, Knoshown and Buckhalter as the Ends/RB's Gerhart five yards back as a Running Fullback, Armani runnin/passin...... I think it's a pretty F'n legit wildcat

Paladin
12-14-2009, 10:32 PM
Elway did the same thing to the Colts.

How do you feel about that whiny bastard John Elway?

Elway didn't whine, He said he had an option to play for the Yankees, and he would do that rather than go to Cleveland IF DRAFTED BY THEM.

Big difference, but the explanation would just go over your pointy little head......

Paladin
12-14-2009, 10:35 PM
After the Broncos win next week all these sad sacks will leave for a while......

watermock
12-14-2009, 10:40 PM
This team isn't going anywhere for awile.

We won't draft a QB, Marshall will get tndered and bought, and we will wind up with an old secondary and weaker offense.

We will sill be contenders in the west, just not real.

Sorry.

We should of hired Saben or Kelley.

watermock
12-14-2009, 10:43 PM
After the Broncos win next week all these sad sacks will leave for a while......

yeah yeah, we ink out a wildcard ater a 6-0 start.


Get your tickets now!

watermock
12-14-2009, 10:46 PM
BTW, if we lose to anyone, an Balt runs the table, we are out.

Mr.Meanie
12-14-2009, 10:48 PM
BTW, if we lose to anyone, an Balt runs the table, we are out.

True story... only 1 wildcard makes it in this year.

colonelbeef
12-14-2009, 10:53 PM
Elway didn't whine, He said he had an option to play for the Yankees, and he would do that rather than go to Cleveland IF DRAFTED BY THEM.

Big difference, but the explanation would just go over your pointy little head......

LOL. Your total misconception regarding what and why, not to mention who, is adorable. You obviously do not understand 1 iota about why Elway refused to play for the Colts, so let me explain it as simply as I can for your doltish mind-

1. It was the Baltimore Colts, moron. Not the Browns.

2. Elway used playing for the Yankees as his leverage to refuse playing for the Colts as he didn't like their management and ownership. In other words, he "whined and cried his way out" (to use Cutler haters' terminology) of playing for the team that would otherwise have drafted him.

The situation is actually quite analogous to what transpired between new Broncos management and Cutler. Cutler didn't want to play for him, so he used his leverage to gtfo. Elway did the same thing. So I ask you Cutler bashers this again-

How do you feel about John Elway, who was known as a spoiled prettyboy crybaby primadonna coming out of college (and well into his pro career as well to be factual)

Do you hate him because he was known as a whiner who couldn't win the big one, or do you love him because of what he became? You think Colts fans think differently about him?

Point is, the current perception of Cutler by Broncos fans, as well as much of the league, is not necessarily the way things will end up, as much as Poops and sallydin wish they would.

Atwater His Ass
12-14-2009, 11:17 PM
You have a problem with this because your definition of "career year" is incorrect. It is not in any way a comparison of one guy to another.

When one says that someone is having a "career year", they are saying that statistically they are having the best year of their career. By definition, this IS a career year for Orton to this point. It's far and away the best season he's ever had.

awesome. does that interrpratation somehow make Orton an above average QB? Does he get to play inside his own little bubble where W's and L's can be decided? Or does he still have to play against other real life players in the NFL?

Popps
12-14-2009, 11:39 PM
Orton is having a nice year, and is integral to our success at this point. When we have a better option, I'm certain McDaniels will look into it.

But for now, you folks hoping for a winning QB to be benched are in for disappointment. Orton will likely be our QB next season. I can think of very few scenarios that will change that.

So, looks like we'll be stuck with a QB that wins games for a while. A lot of people around here don't like that, but so be it.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 07:37 AM
awesome. does that interrpratation somehow make Orton an above average QB? Does he get to play inside his own little bubble where W's and L's can be decided? Or does he still have to play against other real life players in the NFL?

By definition, he IS an above average QB.

orangemonkey
12-15-2009, 08:09 AM
As another NFL coach said, ""He knows how to manage a game; he knows how to not screw things up." Sadly, if he was progressing week after week, Josh would be taking more shots with him. The play calling has been pretty suspect the last few weeks as most people on this board seem to agree and I think it has a lot to do with Orton's limitations. Break him out of "game manager" mode and his arm and legs will hurt us.

Is he our best option right now, yep.

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:16 AM
As another NFL coach said, ""He knows how to manage a game; he knows how to not screw things up." Sadly, if he was progressing week after week, Josh would be taking more shots with him. The play calling has been pretty suspect the last few weeks as most people on this board seem to agree and I think it has a lot to do with Orton's limitations. Break him out of "game manager" mode and his arm and legs will hurt us.

Is he our best option right now, yep.

Yup. I have had people argue that he is getting better. I don't see it. His game management has been horrible the past couple weeks. 3 turnovers in KC and a pick in the red zone last game? That is not managing the games. What happened to the no turnover Orton? His accuracy also has not gotten any better. I hoped he just needed to get in sync with the receivers but it hasn't happened. Watch the last game and you will see that only half of his passes beyond the line of scrimmage were even close to receivers. He whiffs pretty bad on wide open guys.

bowtown
12-15-2009, 08:21 AM
Yup. I have had people argue that he is getting better. I don't see it. His game management has been horrible the past couple weeks. 3 turnovers in KC and a pick in the red zone last game? That is not managing the games. What happened to the no turnover Orton? His accuracy also has not gotten any better. I hoped he just needed to get in sync with the receivers but it hasn't happened. Watch the last game and you will see that only half of his passes beyond the line of scrimmage were even close to receivers. He whiffs pretty bad on wide open guys.

Well considering he had a 70% completion rate, it's hard for me to see how half his balls are nowhere near the recievers or how he is whiffing on open recievers all the time. In fact, for a wr to catch 21 balls while being double covered the entire game, the QB has to be able to throw some balls into places where only he can get them. Brandon's day was not entirely due to Brandon.

I also rememebr another QB who used to force feed the ball to Marshall, but he ended up with a lot more ints.

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:27 AM
Well considering he had a 70% completion rate, it's hard for me to see how half his balls are nowhere near the recievers or how he is whiffing on open recievers all the time. In fact, for a wr to catch 21 balls while being double covered the entire game, the QB has to be able to throw some balls into places where only he can get them. Brandon's day was not entirely due to Brandon.

I also rememebr another QB who used to force feed the ball to Marshall, but he ended up with a lot more ints.

Well for one, I said "beyond the line of scrimmage". Shoot, he has even whiffed bad on a few throws to receivers 5 feet away and still behind the line. Did you not see the past two games when that happened to Marshall? The half may be an exageration but it is close.

As for Cutler. Who cares? Did I say last years offense was perfect? Is he an option to fix the current offense? Why does that matter then?

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 08:32 AM
Yup. I have had people argue that he is getting better. I don't see it. His game management has been horrible the past couple weeks. 3 turnovers in KC and a pick in the red zone last game? That is not managing the games. What happened to the no turnover Orton? His accuracy also has not gotten any better. I hoped he just needed to get in sync with the receivers but it hasn't happened. Watch the last game and you will see that only half of his passes beyond the line of scrimmage were even close to receivers. He whiffs pretty bad on wide open guys.

As was just noted, his completion percentage kills this argument. Add in the fact that the OLine was struggling and he found himself down by 21 pts before the offense could even get warmed up and you sometimes find yourself having to alter your usual gameplan, wouldn't you agree? Despite all the adversity, he still managed to get us back into the game in the 4th quarter against the #2 defense in the entire league. Let's not overlook that.

He's throwing twice as many TDs as picks, he's not losing us any games with his play, and he's bringing us back against one of the best defenses in the league when we're down by 21 and have no run game or blocking to speak of. Seems like a pretty solid performer to me.

TailgateNut
12-15-2009, 08:36 AM
As was just noted, his completion percentage kills this argument. Add in the fact that the OLine was struggling and he found himself down by 21 pts before the offense could even get warmed up and you sometimes find yourself having to alter your usual gameplan, wouldn't you agree? Despite all the adversity, he still managed to get us back into the game in the 4th quarter against the #2 defense in the entire league. Let's not overlook that.

He's throwing twice as many TDs as picks, he's not losing us any games with his play, and he's bringing us back against one of the best defenses in the league when we're down by 21 and have no run game or blocking to speak of. Seems like a pretty solid performer to me.


Save your breath. jhns only agrees with himself, and does that 24/7. He is incapable of taking facts and processing them if they in any way, discredit his tainted views.

bowtown
12-15-2009, 08:37 AM
Well for one, I said "beyond the line of scrimmage". Shoot, he has even whiffed bad on a few throws to receivers 5 feet away and still behind the line. Did you not see the past two games when that happened to Marshall? The half may be an exageration but it is close.

As for Cutler. Who cares? Did I say last years offense was perfect? Is he an option to fix the current offense? Why does that matter then?

Oh, I forgot that myth, Orton only throws screen passes. Sorry. Uhh

Yes I saw where Orton missed his recievers a couple times. I also saw where Manning missed his a lot of times too in that game. QBs sometimes miss their WRs for may different reasons.

As for Cutler, you care. You would take him back in a heartbeat and it's where much of your blind hatred for Orton comes from. And I'm saying that as much as Cutler used to try to force the ball his results were often worse. Orton threw a ton of very good balls on Sunday whether you want to admit it or not.

KevinJames
12-15-2009, 08:43 AM
Interior O-line
Backup change of pace RB w/ lightning speed
#2 WR who can get off jams, so that we can place Royal in a role I feel will have him contributing more and thats in that slot he can be our Welker.

oubronco
12-15-2009, 08:45 AM
Interior O-line
Backup change of pace RB w/ lightning speed
#2 WR who can get off jams, so that we can place Royal in a role I feel will have him contributing more and thats in that slot he can be our Welker.

well then why not just put him there and have Gaffney split wide maybe Royal could make an impact in the remaining games

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:46 AM
Oh, I forgot that myth, Orton only throws screen passes. Sorry. Uhh

.

Did you not watch this past game? You are saying the majority of the passes weren't at or behind the line? If you throw in the 5 yard slants, you get about 70 percent of his passes this last game.

Bottom line, this offense isn't producing. The strengths of this offense are in the passing game. Now, those are considered weaknesses. I like how it isn't Orton. All of these players, other than Marshall, just suddenly got worse....

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:49 AM
Save your breath. jhns only agrees with himself, and does that 24/7. He is incapable of taking facts and processing them if they in any way, discredit his tainted views.

Aww, tail is still on my nuts. How cute. He claims I'm on ignore as he constantly claims to know what I post. Riiiight.

jhns
12-15-2009, 08:53 AM
As was just noted, his completion percentage kills this argument. Add in the fact that the OLine was struggling and he found himself down by 21 pts before the offense could even get warmed up and you sometimes find yourself having to alter your usual gameplan, wouldn't you agree? Despite all the adversity, he still managed to get us back into the game in the 4th quarter against the #2 defense in the entire league. Let's not overlook that.

He's throwing twice as many TDs as picks, he's not losing us any games with his play, and he's bringing us back against one of the best defenses in the league when we're down by 21 and have no run game or blocking to speak of. Seems like a pretty solid performer to me.

Our defense and special teams put this team in position to come back. This guy that isn't producing and is supposed to be a great game manager, threw a pick in the red zone. If he isn't going to be productive, can't you at least admit that can't happen? This team has scored the 8th fewest offensive TDs. You guys say we are golden, I say stuff needs fixed. We will see what Josh thinks at the end of the year.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 08:55 AM
Bottom line, this offense isn't producing. The strengths of this offense are in the passing game. Now, those are considered weaknesses. I like how it isn't Orton. All of these players, other than Marshall, just suddenly got worse....

Hamilton is worse than last year.
Weigmann is worse than last year.
Harris' injury hurts.
Stokley? The guy is no spring chicken and seems to have really slowed down.
Royal isn't playing up to the unreal level he did last year on offense (though he has improved in special teams IMO)

Add in a much more difficult schedule and it's easy to see why the passing offense is struggling more this year in racking up those big yards you seem to like so much. And, as was pointed out yesterday, the points would and will come if they can get some better short yardage blocking.

Look, I'll admit that "good Orton" will never be as accurate in the 15-25 yard passes as "good Cutler" was and is, as well as about 10 other guys in this league are; and he'll never be as mobile. Those are his weaknesses and I'm not blind. Every QB has limitations and IMO he's better than a lot of guys at what he does and he doesn't do the stupid things that cost you games. And I never feel completely out of any game that we're down early (unlike with some other guys out there). And I just plain like him and like rooting for him as my team's QB.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 09:01 AM
Our defense and special teams put this team in position to come back.

The same special teams that missed a field goal? And the same defense that gave up 21 pts in the first 20 minutes of the game? Look, I loved the turnovers, but to not acknowledge that they were the primary reason why we needed to come back that far in the first place is a little odd.

This guy that isn't producing and is supposed to be a great game manager, threw a pick in the red zone. If he isn't going to be productive, can't you at least admit that can't happen? This team has scored the 8th fewest offensive TDs. You guys say we are golden, I say stuff needs fixed. We will see what Josh thinks at the end of the year.

1. He IS producing. Outside of the first few games, he's been putting up numbers on par with all of the top QBs in this league outside of the elite guys at the very top.
2. I'll be the first to admit that the redzone picks can't happen. They just can't. But occasionally they do happen to everyone. It was LITERALLY the one really bad decision he made all game and came under extreme pressure. Nobody is perfect when you throw it as much as he had to and he made up for it with the other 2 TD passes he had.
3. NOBODY is saying we are golden and don't need to improve on offense. NOBODY. All we are doing is giving our opinions about how much certain factors are to blame for the offense's struggles. You want to put them all at Orton's front door. I want to dig deeper and point out all the variables that are at play.

bowtown
12-15-2009, 09:04 AM
Did you not watch this past game? You are saying the majority of the passes weren't at or behind the line? If you throw in the 5 yard slants, you get about 70 percent of his passes this last game.

Bottom line, this offense isn't producing. The strengths of this offense are in the passing game. Now, those are considered weaknesses. I like how it isn't Orton. All of these players, other than Marshall, just suddenly got worse....

No, a majority of his passes were not at or behind the line of scrimmage. That is absolutely what I'm saying.

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fontaine
12-15-2009, 09:04 AM
Bottom line, this offense isn't producing. The strengths of this offense are in the passing game. Now, those are considered weaknesses. I like how it isn't Orton. All of these players, other than Marshall, just suddenly got worse....

This is just getting stupid. I understand Orton isn't a flashy QB but can we all just stop with mangling the facts?

2008 Offense:
Passing 25 TDs, 18 Ints
Rushing 15 TDs, 8 Fumbles

2009 Offense:
Passing 16 TDs, 9 Ints
Rushing 7 TDs, 6 Fumbles

Yes, the Passing offense isn't producing as much, but with three games left to go we should get close to 20 TDs with hella less ints.

Whereas our running game is miles behind and this is with two talented RBs, plus Hillis. The interior of our line is just awful and we've had too many games where they were man handled.

Right now, I would say BOTH the passing and running game aren't great but the running game is the weakest I've ever seen in Denver in a long long time.

jhns
12-15-2009, 09:11 AM
3. NOBODY is saying we are golden and don't need to improve on offense. NOBODY. All we are doing is giving our opinions about how much certain factors are to blame for the offense's struggles. You want to put them all at Orton's front door. I want to dig deeper and point out all the variables that are at play.

Since when did I put it all on Orton? I have always said our running game has been bad for years in short yardage situations. I have claimed many times we need some interior o-line to help with this. I just put it on Orton as well as them and that part of my analysis is what is being challenged by all of you.

jhns
12-15-2009, 09:16 AM
This is just getting stupid. I understand Orton isn't a flashy QB but can we all just stop with mangling the facts?

2008 Offense:
Passing 25 TDs, 18 Ints
Rushing 15 TDs, 8 Fumbles

2009 Offense:
Passing 16 TDs, 9 Ints
Rushing 7 TDs, 6 Fumbles

Yes, the Passing offense isn't producing as much, but with three games left to go we should get close to 20 TDs with hella less ints.

Whereas our running game is miles behind and this is with two talented RBs, plus Hillis. The interior of our line is just awful and we've had too many games where they were man handled.

Right now, I would say BOTH the passing and running game aren't great but the running game is the weakest I've ever seen in Denver in a long long time.

My response to this is the same as the one I just posted. I agree there is a problem with the run game. McDaniels needs to bring in o-linemen that fit his scheme. The ones we have are not cut out for this powe blocking crap and they have always struggled in short yardage situations. They have also struggled with big defenses for years.

I watch Orton and I just don't see why he is being defended so much. I do not see what is so special that he should be irreplacable. I am very curious what McDaniels thinks and we will see this offseason. I doubt he is as set on Orton as many here are. I could be wrong about that though.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 09:22 AM
Since when did I put it all on Orton? I have always said our running game has been bad for years in short yardage situations. I have claimed many times we need some interior o-line to help with this. I just put it on Orton as well as them and that part of my analysis is what is being challenged by all of you.

You pay quick lip service to these other areas, but you never focus your true wrath on anything besides Orton. See Exhibit A below:

If the defense and run game don't play great (not good but great) games, this team losses and looks bad doing it.

Significantly less time? Maybe against the bad teams. That's not real helpful when the goal is a SB.

Receivers are open deep all the time. Orton can't find open guys if they aren't within 10 feet of him. If he does find them, the throw is way behind or way in front of them. Luckily he only attempts throws beyond 10 feet when guys don't have defenders within 20 yards of them, otherwise he would have tons of picks.

No, complete teams are built with accurate QBs that make good decisions. Orton doesn't have accuracy. The ball hits the ground 3 feet in front of wide open receivers that are 5 feet from him. This is not the systems fault.

With what Orton is doing, I could get that production. Everything is thrown behind the line. He doesn't throw to routes beyond 10 yards. Just look at this last game. A rookie could do what he is doing with some legitimate hopes of getting better. No system is going to make Orton more accurate.

jhns
12-15-2009, 09:29 AM
You pay quick lip service to these other areas, but you never focus your true wrath on anything besides Orton. See Exhibit A below:

Well, then debate about the run game. I will argue about it the same. No one has disputed anything I have said about it. You all just are going on about how Orton is untouchable. I am disputing that claim.

fontaine
12-15-2009, 09:30 AM
My response to this is the same as the one I just posted. I agree there is a problem with the run game. McDaniels needs to bring in o-linemen that fit his scheme. The ones we have are not cut out for this powe blocking crap and they have always struggled in short yardage situations. They have also struggled with big defenses for years.

I watch Orton and I just don't see why he is being defended so much. I do not see what is so special that he should be irreplacable. I am very curious what McDaniels thinks and we will see this offseason. I doubt he is as set on Orton as many here are. I could be wrong about that though.

Then why did you isolate the offense as a weakeness in the previous posts?

I think we definitely need to see improvement from the passing offense but I expected the burden to be on the running game as we kept on Turner, with an intact OL, a first round RB and a great run blocking TE.

Compared to the passing game which has a new passing offense, and a new QB. It's not just me saying that, Orton/Dawkins and other players have repeatedly said that they are a team that wants to run the football first and that should be their identity.

No doubt, that next year the expectations will rise from the passing game as Orton will be in his 2nd year as will the rest of the WRs etc in McDaniels offense.

fontaine
12-15-2009, 09:32 AM
Well, then debate about the run game. I will argue about it the same. No one has disputed anything I have said about it. You all just are going on about how Orton is untouchable. I am disputing that claim.

Show me where someone said Orton is untouchable like you claim.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 09:34 AM
Well, then debate about the run game. I will argue about it the same. No one has disputed anything I have said about it. You all just are going on about how Orton is untouchable. I am disputing that claim.

Untouchable is a strong word. Nobody is untouchable IMO.

I just don't believe QB is our #1 (or #2 or #3) weakness and should be the focus in the first and second round of this upcoming draft like some seem to believe. That's all.

2KBack
12-15-2009, 09:37 AM
The human mind is a funny thing. When you really irrationally hate a guy, all you can see are the incompletions.

jhns
12-15-2009, 09:40 AM
Then why did you isolate the offense as a weakeness in the previous posts?

I think we definitely need to see improvement from the passing offense but I expected the burden to be on the running game as we kept on Turner, with an intact OL, a first round RB and a great run blocking TE.
.

Again, I am talking about the passing game because that is what was disputed in my analysis. The back and forth of "the running game sucks", "yes, the running game sucks, "I agree, the running game sucks" can only go on for so long. No one talked about that when I have said it, so I'm not going to continually respond and talk about it.

Well we have had the same rushing struggles for years. We can run in the open field if it isn't a big physical team. The new power rushing game has hurt it a little more. I know people thought the RB would make a difference (as I did) but it has been the small interior line all along. Our strengths are, and have been, in the passing game. Even a new scheme shouldn't make all of these guys look this bad. Royal was considered one of the smartest players on the team. He got Shanahans extremely complex playbook down early. He also was considered one of the best route runners on the team. What happened to all of that? This is just one example of a passing weapon falling off. We have tons of those examples, including on the line. Unless the system sucks, which I doubt is the case, I think this all can be attributed to Ortons limitations.

jhns
12-15-2009, 09:44 AM
Show me where someone said Orton is untouchable like you claim.

Well, I have only claimed I would like to see legitimate competition brought in for Orton this offseason. That has people going insane. I never even said he needs replaced right away. When you all argue so vehemently againt that, what are you saying?

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2009, 09:54 AM
Well, I have only claimed I would like to see legitimate competition brought in for Orton this offseason. That has people going insane. I never even said he needs replaced right away. When you all argue so vehemently againt that, what are you saying?

No. Nobody is above competition. Obviously Simms isn't going to be here next year, so somebody needs to be brought in to at least compete at QB.....even if Brandstater shows them something in the next few months.

What has people going insane are your posts like the one I quoted above, where you essentially say that Orton is one of the worst QBs in the league and that he's killing this supposed high powered offense.

jhns
12-15-2009, 10:02 AM
What has people going insane are your posts like the one I quoted above, where you essentially say that Orton is one of the worst QBs in the league and that he's killing this supposed high powered offense.

I feel he is one of the big problems. That is why I want real competition brought in. If he doesn't get better than he has played so far, he gets replaced. I don't claim people doing their jobs need competition brought in.

TonyR
12-15-2009, 10:02 AM
We should of hired Saben or Kelley.

You absolutely cannot be serious.

fontaine
12-16-2009, 05:44 AM
Well, I have only claimed I would like to see legitimate competition brought in for Orton this offseason. That has people going insane. I never even said he needs replaced right away. When you all argue so vehemently againt that, what are you saying?

I have no problem with bringing in ANY kind of competition of any kind of player. Never have.

I disagree though, with your focus on the passing game being the bigger weakeness or problem. There's a much bigger dropoff in the run game this year and I showed that in my previous post regarding the number of TDs or lack of it from the running game.

jhns
12-16-2009, 07:29 AM
I have no problem with bringing in ANY kind of competition of any kind of player. Never have.

I disagree though, with your focus on the passing game being the bigger weakeness or problem. There's a much bigger dropoff in the run game this year and I showed that in my previous post regarding the number of TDs or lack of it from the running game.

Well, I feel our weapons are in the passing game. Those weapons aren't being taken advantage of. We have had a problem running. What do you define as a dropoff though? We weren't exactly great at running last year. Most teams also have more passing TDs than rushing TDs.

Anyways, I am discussing what is needed to fix the offense. For that, I think we need a QB, C, and LG. You guys are the ones focusing on the QB argument. I agree that the run game needs fixed. I don't agree that the passing game is doing good or that Orton looks like the future.

Beantown Bronco
12-16-2009, 07:49 AM
We have had a problem running. What do you define as a dropoff though? We weren't exactly great at running last year. Most teams also have more passing TDs than rushing TDs.

Did you miss Fontaine's post on the prior page? We had 15 rushing TDs last year. This year, we are on pace for 8. If that's not a significant dropoff, I don't know what is.

jhns
12-16-2009, 07:59 AM
Did you miss Fontaine's post on the prior page? We had 15 rushing TDs last year. This year, we are on pace for 8. If that's not a significant dropoff, I don't know what is.

So just rushing TDs define a dropoff? It doesn't matter that it was our passing game that moved us down the field to setup those rushing TDs and this year that isn't happening?

Beantown Bronco
12-16-2009, 08:03 AM
So just rushing TDs define a dropoff? It doesn't matter that it was our passing game that moved us down the field to setup those rushing TDs and this year that isn't happening?

If you didn't want to discuss rushing TDs than you probably shouldn't have said "Most teams also have more passing TDs than rushing TDs" in your prior post.

jhns
12-16-2009, 08:10 AM
If you didn't want to discuss rushing TDs than you probably shouldn't have said "Most teams also have more passing TDs than rushing TDs" in your prior post.

I just added that because his post sounded like we should have a comparable number of rushing and passing TDs. You want to discuss those TDs? Let's go over that. We are only a couple off from where we were this time last year. Especially when you take out Cutlers rushing TDs, which were not from the running game.

Also, we would have a 5 dropoff on both TD totals if we hit 20 passing and get two more rushing. How is one bigger?