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oubronco
12-10-2009, 07:09 AM
Kyle Orton tackles the term "franchise quarterback"

Posted by Mike Florio on December 10, 2009 7:18 AM ET

As Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton nudges toward the completion of his current contract in his first season with his current team after four in Chicago, one of the big questions facing his current team is whether Orton will be locked up for the long haul.

And that reality apparently prompted a member of the media to ask Orton on Wednesday to talk about the term "franchise quarterback."

Apparently, Orton believes that the term "franchise quarterback" arises only when the "franchise" feels a certain way about its "quarterback."

"That's all on the franchise," Orton said in comments distributed by the team. "That's all on the organization. That's probably the only way you can decide that is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one. I guess we'll just wait and see."

In other words, Orton believes that if a team makes a long-term commitment to a quarterback by paying him a huge amount of money, then he's a "franchise quarterback."

We might not be able to come up with an accurate description of what a "franchise quarterback" clearly is, but in the present context we only need to focus on what a "franchise quarterback" clearly isn't.

Orton clearly isn't.

Exhibit A, he has a career passer rating of 76.0.

Exhibit B, his passer rating for the current season is 88.2.

Exhibit C, he was a free-rope-when-you-buy-a-Christmas-tree afterthought in the trade that sent the true "franchise quarterback" (who might not be one, after all) to Chicago in exchange for two first-round draft picks.

And if Orton is looking for a big contract that would make him a "franchise quarterback," he likely will continue to wait. Absent a new Collective Bargaining Agreement, he'll be a restricted free agent in March 2010, and the Broncos will be able to retain his rights with a one-year contract offer in the range of $3 million.

And that would be Exhibit D.

_Oro_
12-10-2009, 07:12 AM
Ouch, harsh and douchey. Trying to make Orton of all people look like
a guy whose just out to get paid. Some nice spin there.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 07:19 AM
Meh. I like his definition for "Franchise Quarterback." Of all the definitions I've heard, it makes the most sense.

As for Kyle, he'll probably sign a 2-3 year deal, at roughly 2 million a year, with performance incentives on top of that.

Killericon
12-10-2009, 07:19 AM
"That's all on the franchise," Orton said in comments distributed by the team. "That's all on the organization. That's probably the only way you can decide that is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one. I guess we'll just wait and see."

In other words, Orton believes that if a team makes a long-term commitment to a quarterback by paying him a huge amount of money, then he's a "franchise quarterback."

Man, Florio is SUCH a douchebag.

Meh. I like his definition for "Franchise Quarterback." Of all the definitions I've heard, it makes the most sense.

As for Kyle, he'll probably sign a 2-3 year deal, at roughly 2 million a year, with performance incentives on top of that.

Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

That's pretty much the deal Chris Simms has.

Garcia Bronco
12-10-2009, 07:21 AM
I just don't care what these guys get paid.

bowtown
12-10-2009, 07:21 AM
Nice balanced article there Mike "my middle name is douchnozzel" Florio. Glad to see he's back to his Bronco hating ways. Never mind that Orton was the reason that we dealt with the Bears and not the Bucs or Redskins... but yeah "free rope," good point.

jhns and colonbeef will be in here any second to talk about the merits of this shiney turd.

oubronco
12-10-2009, 07:21 AM
If Simms is worth 3 mil a yr then Orton should get more for sure

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 07:23 AM
That's pretty much the deal Chris Simms has.

True, but what's the point? Orton is a known quantity, and while he can improve (Simms can't), there's absolutely no reason to give him a 5 year deal.

He's fine, and he wins games. He'll continue to win games for probably another season and then we'll either trade him elsewhere or he'll leave.

/shrug

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 07:23 AM
If Simms is worth 3 mil a yr then Orton should get more for sure

Simms ISN'T worth 3 mil a year. Not on this or any planet. That was a reach, and was the one move this off season that I did NOT like.

fontaine
12-10-2009, 07:26 AM
so does this mean Orton isn't a FA if there's no CBA? Wow.

I guess the Broncos have all the leverage here. Orton should sign a Simms type deal for three years at low cost. If you doesn't then he'll just have to play out his $3million tender and deal with it.

bowtown
12-10-2009, 07:26 AM
Simms ISN'T worth 3 mil a year. Not on this or any planet. That was a reach, and was the one move this off season that I did NOT like.

This is true, but you live in dreamland if you think Orton's next deal is going to be for 2 mil a year.

NYBronco
12-10-2009, 07:26 AM
Well, it doesn't appear that Chris Simms has secured a seat on the franchise QB labeling merry-go round and he is "earning" 3 times more. So who will it be?
McD has Denver winning and on the verge of a playoff spot with Orton?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 07:27 AM
This is true, but you live in dreamland if you think Orton's next deal is going to be for 2 mil a year.

Ah yes, an Orange Mane classic: Attacking someone's stance on something and then not offering any sort of stance of your own. Gorgeous.

Okay, so how much does Orton get?

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 07:28 AM
orton should probably get a raise and thats about it.....

oubronco
12-10-2009, 07:29 AM
Simms ISN'T worth 3 mil a year. Not on this or any planet. That was a reach, and was the one move this off season that I did NOT like.

No doubt what were McD and co. smoking to think he was worth more than a peanut butter sandwich the dude sucks worse than Ryan Leaf :~ohyah!:

bowtown
12-10-2009, 07:32 AM
Ah yes, an Orange Mane classic: Attacking someone's stance on something and then not offering any sort of stance of your own. Gorgeous.

Okay, so how much does Orton get?

If he gets us to the playoffs, it would not shock me to see him get a deal close to 5 years 40 mil with at least 15 mil guaranteed. That's a bargain for a young playoff calibur QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 07:32 AM
No doubt what were McD and co. smoking to think he was worth more than a peanut butter sandwich the dude sucks worse than Ryan Leaf :~ohyah!:

He's pretty awful. I think this is his last stop. He'll probably go have a wankathon with his dad in the broadcast booth now, or just buy the Bigelow Tea Co.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 07:33 AM
If he gets us to the playoffs, it would not shock me to see him get a deal close to 5 years 40 mil with at least 15 mil guaranteed.

Wow. I would be truly shocked by that. Truly.

I guess we'll see.

Just for ****s (and to see the overreaction), what if we don't make the playoffs?

oubronco
12-10-2009, 07:33 AM
I hear they need cellphone salesmen at the mall

oubronco
12-10-2009, 07:35 AM
Wow. I would be truly shocked by that. Truly.

I guess we'll see.

Just for ****s (and to see the overreaction), what if we don't make the playoffs?

please don't jinx it I don't know if I could handle another epic letdown at the end of the season again

Lolad
12-10-2009, 07:41 AM
All you damn homers read It and weep the guy is not a franchise QB. He's not even a top 15 QB... He's 16-20 range... AVERAGE! but he's our QB for now so I'll cheer him till we find a better one

baja
12-10-2009, 07:50 AM
I just don't care what these guys get paid.

this

bowtown
12-10-2009, 07:54 AM
Wow. I would be truly shocked by that. Truly.

I guess we'll see.

Just for ****s (and to see the overreaction), what if we don't make the playoffs?

Probably not a lot less. It may not be for 5 years, depending on who gives him the contract, but the guy is going to be worth easily between 6 and 8 mil a year. Take a look around at what other starting QBs in this league make. 6-8mil is barely middle of the pack.

baja
12-10-2009, 07:55 AM
Simms ISN'T worth 3 mil a year. Not on this or any planet. That was a reach, and was the one move this off season that I did NOT like.

I had high hopes for Simms - I was wrong

2KBack
12-10-2009, 08:00 AM
All you damn homers read It and weep the guy is not a franchise QB. He's not even a top 15 QB... He's 16-20 range... AVERAGE! but he's our QB for now so I'll cheer him till we find a better one

keep to the facts please, which standard of measurements are you using to make this claim?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 08:05 AM
Probably not a lot less. It may not be for 5 years, depending on who gives him the contract, but the guy is going to be worth easily between 6 and 8 mil a year. Take a look around at what other starting QBs in this league make. 6-8mil is barely middle of the pack.

Fair enough. I don't see him making that. 4-5 mil maybe on the open market, unless someone really drastically overpays for him.

I think he knows that McD is able to get the best out of him. I think he likes the city, likes the team, likes the style we play. I think he'd stick for less in order to try and win games.

And I think if he signs a 2-3 year deal, he STILL has time to go out on the open market and get his huge payday from another team. He'll only be around 30 years old.

TailgateNut
12-10-2009, 08:09 AM
Meh. I like his definition for "Franchise Quarterback." Of all the definitions I've heard, it makes the most sense.

As for Kyle, he'll probably sign a 2-3 year deal, at roughly 2 million a year, with performance incentives on top of that.

....and I thought it was someone who has a STRONG ARM and NO BRAIN.;)

TailgateNut
12-10-2009, 08:11 AM
Simms ISN'T worth 3 mil a year. Not on this or any planet. That was a reach, and was the one move this off season that I did NOT like.

He'd be worth 3mil in Chi-town, considering the salary of the Interception Queen.

jhns
12-10-2009, 08:19 AM
....and I thought it was someone who has a STRONG ARM and NO BRAIN.;)

You do realise that his definition fits Cutler, right?

The Joker
12-10-2009, 08:21 AM
I'd say he managed the term rather than tackled it...

Seriously though, barring Orton going wild in January and winning us some games then he'll be hit with the RFA tag.

Nobody is giving us a 1st and 3rd for him, give him a second audition next year and draft another young QB to develop alongside Brandstater. If Orton makes the leap next year, then get him signed long term. If not, let the two new guys battle it out to start in 2011.

crawdad
12-10-2009, 08:23 AM
Speaking of losers, did you guys see this:

5. Oakland WR Javon Walker

The injury-plagued Walker became one of the most overpaid free agents in NFL history after signing a six-year, $55 million contract with an $11 million signing bonus in 2008. Walker reworked the deal in 2009 to stay with the Raiders after a poor 2008 campaign, but it's still wasted money. Walker, who is collecting $4.6 million guaranteed through the end of next season, has played in three games and doesn't have a catch.

bowtown
12-10-2009, 08:25 AM
I'd say he managed the term rather than tackled it...

Seriously though, barring Orton going wild in January and winning us some games then he'll be hit with the RFA tag.

Nobody is giving us a 1st and 3rd for him, give him a second audition next year and draft another young QB to develop alongside Brandstater. If Orton makes the leap next year, then get him signed long term. If not, let the two new guys battle it out to start in 2011.

I think this is exactly what they'll do.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 08:27 AM
keep to the facts please, which standard of measurements are you using to make this claim?

OK... lets take a look at teams in playoff contention and see if Orton is better then anyone of them.

1. Peyton Manning -
2. Drew Brees -
3. Brett Favre -
4. Phillip Rivers -
5. Carson Palmer -
6. Tom Brady
7. Donavan Mcnabb
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Kurt Warner
11. Big Ben
12. Matt Ryan
13. Joe Flacco
14. Eli Manning
15. Matt Schaub
16. Jay Cutler
17. Kyle Orton

Try and Discredit this

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 08:33 AM
OK... lets take a look at teams in playoff contention and see if Orton is better then anyone of them.

1. Peyton Manning -
2. Drew Brees -
3. Brett Favre -
4. Phillip Rivers -
5. Carson Palmer -
6. Tom Brady
7. Donavan Mcnabb
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Kurt Warner
11. Big Ben
12. Matt Ryan
13. Joe Flacco
14. Eli Manning
15. Matt Schaub
16. Jay Cutler
17. Kyle Orton

Try and Discredit this

Great, but that's not a standard of measurement. Some of those guys I'd rather have, sure. Some of those guys, not so much.

Some of them have bigger arms. Some of them are more mobile. Doesn't mean I'd necessarily take them.

Fact is, we're winning games, so "better" qb's is just going to lead to (yet another) childish argument about who is better than who.

jhns
12-10-2009, 08:36 AM
Meh. I like his definition for "Franchise Quarterback." Of all the definitions I've heard, it makes the most sense.

As for Kyle, he'll probably sign a 2-3 year deal, at roughly 2 million a year, with performance incentives on top of that.

The reason this is the best you have heard is that it is the real one. I have told people this since Cutler was traded. People have constantly cried and acted upset that he is called a franchise QB. According to 0rton, he is one. I hope this link goes to the right spot as I have never had to copy/paste a link on my phone. Here is what you said when I gave you this exact definition:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2660063&postcount=261

This is why it is impossible to have real conversations on this site. It isn't that there are negative views. It is that you guys get your feelings hurt by players, coaches, or other posters and have no ability to be objective or rationale when talking to or about them. Well, that and the kiddy insults that constantly fly and people actually get upset about.

_Oro_
12-10-2009, 08:40 AM
OK... lets take a look at teams in playoff contention and see if Orton is better then anyone of them.

Best qb ever in the history of the world. Jay Cutler

1. Peyton Manning -
2. Drew Brees -
3. Brett Favre -
4. Phillip Rivers -
5. Carson Palmer -
6. Tom Brady
7. Donavan Mcnabb
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Kurt Warner
11. Big Ben
12. Matt Ryan
13. Joe Flacco
14. Eli Manning
15. Matt Schaub
16. Kyle Orton

Try and Discredit this

Fixed

bpc
12-10-2009, 08:43 AM
Orton would be smart to resign for 3 or 4 million per year, and ready to mentor his eventual replacement. That would be ideal.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 08:47 AM
orton would be smart to resign for 3 or 4 million per year, and ready to mentor his eventual replacement. That would be ideal.

+1

Lolad
12-10-2009, 08:54 AM
Great, but that's not a standard of measurement. Some of those guys I'd rather have, sure. Some of those guys, not so much.

Some of them have bigger arms. Some of them are more mobile. Doesn't mean I'd necessarily take them.

Fact is, we're winning games, so "better" qb's is just going to lead to (yet another) childish argument about who is better than who.

No doubt he's our QB for right now so in that respect im behind him. But to think you pass up a future QB because you think Orton is the creme of the crop is stupid

bowtown
12-10-2009, 08:56 AM
Orton would be smart to resign for 3 or 4 million per year, and ready to mentor his eventual replacement. That would be ideal.

3-4 million/year is the going rate for a backup QB. Do people really think he hasn't shown at least enough this year to be paid more than a backup? If you are going to keep him as your starter, even if it's only for a couple of years, then you should pay him like he is a starter.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 08:57 AM
No doubt he's our QB for right now so in that respect im behind him. But to think you pass up a future QB because you think Orton is the creme of the crop is stupid

I don't think that Orton is the creme of the crop, but I also think we have more pressing needs, namely, along the defensive line and offensive line. I think we can wait a year to use a high pick on a QB.

oubronco
12-10-2009, 08:59 AM
I don't think that Orton is the creme of the crop, but I also think we have more pressing needs, namely, along the defensive line and offensive line. I think we can wait a year to use a high pick on a QB.

on who will there be a good one I believe most of the good ones are coming out this year

The Joker
12-10-2009, 09:02 AM
Orton would be smart to resign for 3 or 4 million per year, and ready to mentor his eventual replacement. That would be ideal.

That's not really realistic in all honesty.

You're asking him to take about one third of what Matt Cassel got, and about half of what Jake Delhomme got.

Kyle has proved he can win games in this league, and is a more than capable NFL starter. If we aren't gonna pay him like a starter, some other team out there will.

To expect him to sign for the same sort of money per year that Chris Simms got just so we can have a caretaker until our new QB is ready to go is just not gonna happen.

We're looking at upwards of 6-7 million a year if we want to sign him longterm. RFA tag is a no-brainer at this point, barring some sort of Brady-esque performance for the rest of the year from Kyle.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 09:06 AM
on who will there be a good one I believe most of the good ones are coming out this year

True, but there's always a good QB in the draft. Always. Every year.

We're winning with good defense and Kyle Orton. We're developing Brandstater. We can continue to win with Orton and a good defense, especially if we IMPROVE that defense.

oubronco
12-10-2009, 09:11 AM
True, but there's always a good QB in the draft. Always. Every year.

We're winning with good defense and Kyle Orton. We're developing Brandstater. We can continue to win with Orton and a good defense, especially if we IMPROVE that defense.

which is exactly what I hope they do an elite DT would be great

Mr.Meanie
12-10-2009, 09:12 AM
If he gets us to the playoffs, it would not shock me to see him get a deal close to 5 years 40 mil with at least 15 mil guaranteed. That's a bargain for a young playoff calibur QB.

That's about what we would pay if we took a top 10 1st round QB... I would not at all be surprised to see Orton get this. Actually I would be surprised if he didn't.

Mr.Meanie
12-10-2009, 09:14 AM
OK... lets take a look at teams in playoff contention and see if Orton is better then anyone of them.

1. Peyton Manning -
2. Drew Brees -
3. Brett Favre -
4. Phillip Rivers -
5. Carson Palmer -
6. Tom Brady
7. Donavan Mcnabb
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Kurt Warner
11. Big Ben
12. Matt Ryan
13. Joe Flacco
14. Eli Manning
15. Matt Schaub
16. Jay Cutler
17. Kyle Orton

Try and Discredit this

Teams in playoff contention? Why is Cutler in there? You just discredited your own post.

DrFate
12-10-2009, 09:16 AM
Orton should be resigned, but he shouldn't be looking at a big payday.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 09:17 AM
3-4 million/year is the going rate for a backup QB. Do people really think he hasn't shown at least enough this year to be paid more than a backup? If you are going to keep him as your starter, even if it's only for a couple of years, then you should pay him like he is a starter.

he's a restricted free agent, he has no say right now

bowtown
12-10-2009, 09:24 AM
he's a restricted free agent, he has no say right now

Well he does have a say not to sign a 3-4 million dollar contract extension. He would be stupid to do so. I agree that he will probably be tendered and will play for under his value next year, but if we do decide to extend him, or if another team eventually signs him to be a starter, it's unrealistic to think it's going to be for less than 6 mil/year.

bombquixote
12-10-2009, 09:26 AM
Nice balanced article there Mike "my middle name is douchnozzel" Florio. Glad to see he's back to his Bronco hating ways. Never mind that Orton was the reason that we dealt with the Bears and not the Bucs or Redskins... but yeah "free rope," good point.

jhns and colonbeef will be in here any second to talk about the merits of this shiney turd.

Hehehe..."douchnozzel."

snowspot66
12-10-2009, 09:26 AM
Like it matters what he gets payed next year. No salary cap.

Br0nc0Buster
12-10-2009, 09:35 AM
I doubt he gets a new deal
My guess is they will put a tender on him and give him another year to see if he improves and what his ceiling is

I have no problem with this

I hope they give Doom and Marshall new deals though instead

Popps
12-10-2009, 09:41 AM
Again, if we can extend Orton to a club-friendly contract right now, you ABSOLUTELY do it. He's the best QB in the free agent crop next year. (By a wide margin.) He's skilled in our system and guys seem to respect him. Extend him to a reasonable deal, and we've got a QB that can at least keep us competitive while we develop a younger QB. (Or 2.)

But like I said in another thread, it's too early for this. We have to see how he finishes and how far this team can go with him. (Given, it's not remotely all on him.)
There's too much missing information about this season to know just what we have with Orton. (Despite the "experts" weighing in from every corner.)

Mountain Bronco
12-10-2009, 09:44 AM
3 million is pretty standard backup QB stuff. Dan Orlovsky (ran out of the back of the endzone guy) gets paid more than 3 million a year to be the Texans backup. Orton will make around 6 million a year. The lenght and guaranteed money is what he won't get.

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 09:48 AM
Orton is really in a tough position from a contract perspective. He's a RFA in the last year of the old collective bargaining agreement, going into the 2010 season with no salary cap. I mean, really, he's not in a good position to negotiate a big contract.

McD, he's a freak'n genius.

Pony Boy
12-10-2009, 09:52 AM
Teams in playoff contention? Why is Cutler in there? You just discredited your own post.

I guess that's why they call you Mr. Meanie...... :rofl:

vancejohnson82
12-10-2009, 10:00 AM
Ok....here's what I would offer if we had to sit down at a table right now....

I'm offering 3 years for $13 mil ...with some performance incentives on top of that that can cap off at about $16 mil

5 years is too long....3 years is perfect and especially at that price...that gives us time to draft a QB NEXT YEAR..i dont like this years class....we bring in a young guy and he gets to learn the system for 2 years with Kyle at the helm...it also gives us 1 more year to see if Brandstater can catch on as the next QB

~Crash~
12-10-2009, 10:00 AM
Meh. I like his definition for "Franchise Quarterback." Of all the definitions I've heard, it makes the most sense.

As for Kyle, he'll probably sign a 2-3 year deal, at roughly 2 million a year, with performance incentives on top of that.
'
our back up gets that much ... bump it up some...

~Crash~
12-10-2009, 10:02 AM
Ok....here's what I would offer if we had to sit down at a table right now....

I'm offering 3 years for $13 mil ...with some performance incentives on top of that that can cap off at about $16 mil

5 years is too long....3 years is perfect and especially at that price...that gives us time to draft a QB NEXT YEAR..i dont like this years class....we bring in a young guy and he gets to learn the system for 2 years with Kyle at the helm...it also gives us 1 more year to see if Brandstater can catch on as the next QB

not bad ...

HEAV
12-10-2009, 10:05 AM
I've said it over and over...franchise quarterback = Wins.

29 Wins 16 loses in 45 starts.

Popcorn Sutton
12-10-2009, 10:13 AM
I'd say he managed the term rather than tackled it...

Seriously though, barring Orton going wild in January and winning us some games then he'll be hit with the RFA tag.

Nobody is giving us a 1st and 3rd for him, give him a second audition next year and draft another young QB to develop alongside Brandstater. If Orton makes the leap next year, then get him signed long term. If not, let the two new guys battle it out to start in 2011.

Sounds good to me.

jhns
12-10-2009, 10:15 AM
I've said it over and over...franchise quarterback = Wins.

29 Wins 16 loses in 45 starts.

Yeah, that one man team argument is a good one.

Rigs11
12-10-2009, 10:22 AM
I've said it over and over...franchise quarterback = Wins.

29 Wins 16 loses in 45 starts.but..but.. it's all the defenses that win his games;D

HEAV
12-10-2009, 10:32 AM
Yeah, that one man team argument is a good one.

Cutler fans used it alot...

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 10:36 AM
Meh. I like his definition for "Franchise Quarterback." Of all the definitions I've heard, it makes the most sense.

As for Kyle, he'll probably sign a 2-3 year deal, at roughly 2 million a year, with performance incentives on top of that.

Derek Anderson, Matt Cassel, Matt Schaub, all backups at one point who had a good year and then cashed in with deals paying them around 7-10 million a year. of them all Schaub is the only one that can be possibly be worth the investment, but it is hard to tell with the constant injuries

Orton, a proven vet with 45 games of experience, a proven winner, a guy who doesn't make a lot of mistakes and put his team into ****ty positions is a great leader and team player, will get a deal for what those guys got.

so many here believe we can lowball the guy just because he is having a great year here, and we all want to believe he will turn his back on a much higher deal to remain in Denver.

the truth is, if he hits the open market, there will be a bidding war for the guy, and he will get paid.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 10:36 AM
Teams in playoff contention? Why is Cutler in there? You just discredited your own post.

they have not been pushed out yet.

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 10:39 AM
Ok....here's what I would offer if we had to sit down at a table right now....

I'm offering 3 years for $13 mil ...with some performance incentives on top of that that can cap off at about $16 mil

5 years is too long....3 years is perfect and especially at that price...that gives us time to draft a QB NEXT YEAR..i dont like this years class....we bring in a young guy and he gets to learn the system for 2 years with Kyle at the helm...it also gives us 1 more year to see if Brandstater can catch on as the next QB

and he and his agent will laugh their asses off and walk out of the room.

Cassel set the market for QBs who had 1 good year. 6 years and 63 million.

if we want to keep Orton it is going to cost in the range of 8-10 million a year.

Smiling Assassin27
12-10-2009, 10:39 AM
Bowlen has a history. If you perform, he pays you commensurate with that performance. Rarely have I seen the Broncos lowball people they want to keep. If Orton gets us into the playoffs, he's earned a pay raise with some amount of security. The more the team wins, the more Orton gets offered, since the qb gets that silly won-loss as a starter stat pinned to 'em.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 10:41 AM
We give him a 3 year deal. I don't care for how much.. And get another QB in here to replace him after next year

vancejohnson82
12-10-2009, 10:42 AM
and he and his agent will laugh their asses off and walk out of the room.

Cassel set the market for QBs who had 1 good year. 6 years and 63 million.

if we want to keep Orton it is going to cost in the range of 8-10 million a year.

Sure...he can take $8 milion a year...and I'll sign him for 2 years...draft a QB or grab a FA QB and push him out the door when the contract expires....then he will be an "older" QB on the market with "marginal" ability...

the years are what would matter to him...and my $16-$17 mil for 3 years would look a little bit better to him and not MUCH off of the mark you just set

we've seen that McD doesnt care who is behind center...he is confident in his system

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 10:49 AM
Sure...he can take $8 milion a year...and I'll sign him for 2 years...draft a QB or grab a FA QB and push him out the door when the contract expires....then he will be an "older" QB on the market with "marginal" ability...

the years are what would matter to him...and my $16-$17 mil for 3 years would look a little bit better to him and not MUCH off of the mark you just set

we've seen that McD doesnt care who is behind center...he is confident in his system

McD does care who is behind center. Quinn, Anderson, Campbell, Cutler, all were legit candidates to become our starting QB, but he chose Orton. in fact in the Cutler trade he made sure he received Orton back as compensation by also throwing in a 5th round pick.

he is confident his system can make certain types of QBs into stars, but he is not confident that just any QB can play in the system, if he were, Cutler would still be here.

vancejohnson82
12-10-2009, 10:53 AM
McD does care who is behind center. Quinn, Anderson, Campbell, Cutler, all were legit candidates to become our starting QB, but he chose Orton. in fact in the Cutler trade he made sure he received Orton back as compensation by also throwing in a 5th round pick.

he is confident his system can make certain types of QBs into stars, but he is not confident that just any QB can play in the system, if he were, Cutler would still be here.

yea, i agree with you...he likes HIS type of guys. But if orton comes to the table playing hardball, i feel like McD would say OK, who else can we grab out there for less money (Campbell and Quinn being candidates still).

i like Orton but should he be making more than, lets say, a McNabb (isnt McNabb's number around $7 per year?)

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 10:56 AM
We give him a 3 year deal. I don't care for how much.. And get another QB in here to replace him after next year

that is completely stupid. so many are ready to toss aside a QB who has done more for the team in less than a year than the supposed Franchise QB did in 3 years.

look around the league, how many of the top flight QBs in this league have incredible athletic ability?

Brady (whose skill set is very comparable to Orton) Manning, Rodgers, Warner, Brees, Rivers, none of them are great athletes, but they are all intelligent.

we Broncos fans were spoiled with greatness for so long, that we believe a QB needs incredible athletic ability to succeed in the NFL, but in the current NFL, a QB needs to be intelligent more than he needs to be an incredibly gifted athlete. Orton is the best QB for this team and unless there is a Peyton Manning coming out of the college ranks in the next few years, i say roll with Orton.

WolfpackGuy
12-10-2009, 10:58 AM
He needs to tackle the term "get rid of the damn ball"

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 11:00 AM
yea, i agree with you...he likes HIS type of guys. But if orton comes to the table playing hardball, i feel like McD would say OK, who else can we grab out there for less money (Campbell and Quinn being candidates still).

i like Orton but should he be making more than, lets say, a McNabb (isnt McNabb's number around $7 per year?)

Orton should be making something in line with McNabb in that 7 million a year range, but Cassel set the market incredibly high for what can be perceived as moderately skilled QBs with only 1 good year of experience. Orton is seen as better than Cassel in this league, and there will be suitors out there willing to give him that kind of money.

and had McD actually felt that Campbell or Quinn were strong candidates of the type of QB McD wanted, they would be here right now.

i don't think Orton is going to come in and play hardball and making demands that are outrageous, but there is no way he is going to come in and get screwed over on a new deal.

jhns
12-10-2009, 11:00 AM
Cutler fans used it alot...

I never saw one use it. In fact, I saw them say the oppposite as Cutler has a losing record and the defense was blamed for losses. How is that saying Cutler carries the team on his own? What are you even talking about?

Anyways, it doesn't matter who said it. Saying this sport is won or lost by a single player is pretty dumb.

vancejohnson82
12-10-2009, 11:01 AM
that is completely stupid. so many are ready to toss aside a QB who has done more for the team in less than a year than the supposed Franchise QB did in 3 years.

look around the league, how many of the top flight QBs in this league have incredible athletic ability?

Brady (whose skill set is very comparable to Orton) Manning, Rodgers, Warner, Brees, Rivers, none of them are great athletes, but they are all intelligent.

we Broncos fans were spoiled with greatness for so long, that we believe a QB needs incredible athletic ability to succeed in the NFL, but in the current NFL, a QB needs to be intelligent more than he needs to be an incredibly gifted athlete. Orton is the best QB for this team and unless there is a Peyton Manning coming out of the college ranks in the next few years, i say roll with Orton.

Once again....I completely agree with your assessment of the QB position both in Denver lore and around the league...

however, we've also witnessed teams that have grossly overpaid their QBs and were stuck with the contract:

D. Anderson - Browns
Cassel - Chiefs (remains to be seen but I think they overpaid)
Kitna - Lions
Bulger - Rams

Guys that basically lit it up or showed flashes of being a reliable guy and scored a big contract...

I would love to keep Orton here but at what price?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 11:02 AM
Derek Anderson, Matt Cassel, Matt Schaub, all backups at one point who had a good year and then cashed in with deals paying them around 7-10 million a year. of them all Schaub is the only one that can be possibly be worth the investment, but it is hard to tell with the constant injuries

Orton, a proven vet with 45 games of experience, a proven winner, a guy who doesn't make a lot of mistakes and put his team into ****ty positions is a great leader and team player, will get a deal for what those guys got.

so many here believe we can lowball the guy just because he is having a great year here, and we all want to believe he will turn his back on a much higher deal to remain in Denver.

the truth is, if he hits the open market, there will be a bidding war for the guy, and he will get paid.

That's a really good post, and a good point. Rep.

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 11:03 AM
He needs to tackle the term "get rid of the damn ball"

what would you prefer. a loss of up to 10 yards and keeping the ball being able to punt or take another shot on a later down and not give the opposition advantages in the game that comes with a sack, or the Cutler mentality to throw the ball anywhere and allow a **** load of INTs that bite the team in the ass?

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 11:09 AM
Once again....I completely agree with your assessment of the QB position both in Denver lore and around the league...

however, we've also witnessed teams that have grossly overpaid their QBs and were stuck with the contract:

D. Anderson - Browns
Cassel - Chiefs (remains to be seen but I think they overpaid)
Kitna - Lions
Bulger - Rams

Guys that basically lit it up or showed flashes of being a reliable guy and scored a big contract...

I would love to keep Orton here but at what price?

i agree with you about the risk of signing any QB to a long term deal, but i don't see Orton in that group at all. unlike them he came to denver with multiple seasons of starting experience and a record or 21-12. he was a winner before he got to Denver. those guys had a 1 and done season in a contract year that got them paid.

i just think that Orton will be the best of the NFL FA QBs available next season, and of the QBs coming out in the draft, none of them just scream sure thing.

right now not only is Orton the best fit for the team, but he is the safest bet of all possible options for the team.

jhns
12-10-2009, 11:17 AM
what would you prefer. a loss of up to 10 yards and keeping the ball being able to punt or take another shot on a later down and not give the opposition advantages in the game that comes with a sack, or the Cutler mentality to throw the ball anywhere and allow a **** load of INTs that bite the team in the ass?

I would like to have a guy that can see and hit open receivers. I actually don't care who it is or how they look. If they produce, they are good. Right now, this offense has not been near its potential and you guys want it to stay that way because it is good enough... With the good to great players we have at every offensive position, this should be a productive offense. We are wasting a ton of talent because we have such a limited QB.

By the way... Can you name me a single team that has ever consistently won with a ball control QB? I know there are a few that have won a SB, but it is pretty hard to find a team with a mediocre QB that made it deep in the playoffs consistently. Every good team that is good for more than a year or two has a very good QB. Orton needs to get a lot better than he is now or we need to at least bring in competition.

I have no idea what happened to Bronco fans. Did you all get your feelings hurt that bad that you have to defend Orton no matter what? Have you watched his play at all this season? How about his last game? 3 turnovers is him helping the team win? Him throwing to a receiver 5 feet away and hitting him in the shoes is him being a great QB to you?

vancejohnson82
12-10-2009, 11:24 AM
I would like to have a guy that can see and hit open receivers. I actually don't care who it is or how they look. If they produce, they are good. Right now, this offense has not been near its potential and you guys want it to stay that way because it is good enough... With the good to great players we have at every offensive position, this should be a productive offense. We are wasting a ton of talent because we have such a limited QB.

By the way... Can you name me a single team that has ever consistently won with a ball control QB? I know there are a few that have won a SB, but it is pretty hard to find a team with a mediocre QB that made it deep in the playoffs consistently. Every good team that is good for more than a year or two has a very good QB. Orton needs to get a lot better than he is now or we need to at least bring in competition.

I have no idea what happened to Bronco fans. Did you all get your feelings hurt that bad that you have to defend Orton no matter what? Have you watched his play at all this season? How about his last game? 3 turnovers is him helping the team win? Him throwing to a receiver 5 feet away and hitting him in the shoes is him being a great QB to you?

I knew that an intelligent football conversation could only last so long on this board....

(yawn)

Mr.Meanie
12-10-2009, 11:31 AM
The bottom line is there are teams that will pay Orton, and pay him well.

I see the top team who would love Orton would be Carolina, as they have no 1st round pick and Delhomme is likely done there. With their running game and defense they would absoutely love to have a ball-control game manager as a QB.

The Rams may be another one, unless they go with a top 3 QB pick and pay him a guaranteed $40M.

The Skins might want to go for Bradford, but they could be another likely bidder if they want to groom their draft pick behind an established leader.

The Bills and Phins are also in the mix.

And believe it or not, the Broncos have no one behind Orton ready to lead a team to the playoffs. Simms is gone, and their 3rd string rookie is obviously not quite ready. The Broncos would be looking at paying more $ to an unproven rookie who would be backed up by another unproven (basically) rookie.

Orton will get a Cassel type deal.

HEAV
12-10-2009, 11:34 AM
I would like to have a guy that can see and hit open receivers. I actually don't care who it is or how they look. If they produce, they are good. Right now, this offense has not been near its potential and you guys want it to stay that way because it is good enough... With the good to great players we have at every offensive position, this should be a productive offense. We are wasting a ton of talent because we have such a limited QB.

By the way... Can you name me a single team that has ever consistently won with a ball control QB? I know there are a few that have won a SB, but it is pretty hard to find a team with a mediocre QB that made it deep in the playoffs consistently. Every good team that is good for more than a year or two has a very good QB. Orton needs to get a lot better than he is now or we need to at least bring in competition.

I have no idea what happened to Bronco fans. Did you all get your feelings hurt that bad that you have to defend Orton no matter what? Have you watched his play at all this season? How about his last game? 3 turnovers is him helping the team win? Him throwing to a receiver 5 feet away and hitting him in the shoes is him being a great QB to you?

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2624050&postcount=1

jhns
12-10-2009, 11:37 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2624050&postcount=1

Yeah, that was from a bet. Although, I will give him props for doing better than I thought. That doesn't mean I think he is the future...

vancejohnson82
12-10-2009, 11:40 AM
The bottom line is there are teams that will pay Orton, and pay him well.

I see the top team who would love Orton would be Carolina, as they have no 1st round pick and Delhomme is likely done there. With their running game and defense they would absoutely love to have a ball-control game manager as a QB.

The Rams may be another one, unless they go with a top 3 QB pick and pay him a guaranteed $40M.

The Skins might want to go for Bradford, but they could be another likely bidder if they want to groom their draft pick behind an established leader.

The Bills and Phins are also in the mix.

And believe it or not, the Broncos have no one behind Orton ready to lead a team to the playoffs. Simms is gone, and their 3rd string rookie is obviously not quite ready. The Broncos would be looking at paying more $ to an unproven rookie who would be backed up by another unproven (basically) rookie.

Orton will get a Cassel type deal.


I think the Phins like what they've seen from Henne this year and wouldn't be in the mix...arent the Rams stuck with Bulger for a few more years (3?)...so I would suspect they draft a QB...Skins may be in there but why would they give Campbell up adn basically pay Orton for the same type of QB for more money...

Carolina could give him a shot because I'm pretty sure they are done with the turnovers and bonehead mistakes

jhns
12-10-2009, 11:43 AM
I knew that an intelligent football conversation could only last so long on this board....

(yawn)

Yeah, that happens when all of the posters had their feelings hurt this offseason and can no longer be objective or rational. It happens...

The intelligent conversation ends when you claim Orton to be the future. He could be, but not from what we have seen so far. He needs to get a lot better before he gets paid big money and is considered the great QB people here are trying to hype him as.

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 11:43 AM
I would like to have a guy that can see and hit open receivers. I actually don't care who it is or how they look. If they produce, they are good. Right now, this offense has not been near its potential and you guys want it to stay that way because it is good enough... With the good to great players we have at every offensive position, this should be a productive offense. We are wasting a ton of talent because we have such a limited QB.

By the way... Can you name me a single team that has ever consistently won with a ball control QB? I know there are a few that have won a SB, but it is pretty hard to find a team with a mediocre QB that made it deep in the playoffs consistently. Every good team that is good for more than a year or two has a very good QB. Orton needs to get a lot better than he is now or we need to at least bring in competition.

I have no idea what happened to Bronco fans. Did you all get your feelings hurt that bad that you have to defend Orton no matter what? Have you watched his play at all this season? How about his last game? 3 turnovers is him helping the team win? Him throwing to a receiver 5 feet away and hitting him in the shoes is him being a great QB to you?

Terry Bradshaw was not the most talented QB to ever play, but he had fantastic teams with a lot of talent around him and he did well in the post season. But check this out:

The two touchdowns Bradshaw threw in what would be the final NFL game played at Shea Stadium (and the last NFL game in New York City to date) allowed him to finish his career with two more touchdowns (212) than interceptions (210) for his career. In his 14-season career, Bradshaw completed 2,025 of 3,901 passes for 27,989 yards and 212 touchdowns.

Bradshaw may not have been a ball control QB, but he was certainly erratic and inconsistent at times. That being said, he did win 4 SBs with the Steel Curtain and Franco Harris, Lyn Swann and John Stallworth.

jhns
12-10-2009, 11:52 AM
Terry Bradshaw was not the most talented QB to ever play, but he had fantastic teams with a lot of talent around him and he did well in the post season. But check this out:

The two touchdowns Bradshaw threw in what would be the final NFL game played at Shea Stadium (and the last NFL game in New York City to date) allowed him to finish his career with two more touchdowns (212) than interceptions (210) for his career. In his 14-season career, Bradshaw completed 2,025 of 3,901 passes for 27,989 yards and 212 touchdowns.

Bradshaw may not have been a ball control QB, but he was certainly erratic and inconsistent at times. That being said, he did win 4 SBs with the Steel Curtain and Franco Harris, Lyn Swann and John Stallworth.

Bradshae was a very good QB and he played in a far different era. Anyways, his offenses produced still. He also wasn't much of a ball control guy with the same number of picks as TDs.

2KBack
12-10-2009, 11:57 AM
Terry Bradshaw was not the most talented QB to ever play, but he had fantastic teams with a lot of talent around him and he did well in the post season. But check this out:

The two touchdowns Bradshaw threw in what would be the final NFL game played at Shea Stadium (and the last NFL game in New York City to date) allowed him to finish his career with two more touchdowns (212) than interceptions (210) for his career. In his 14-season career, Bradshaw completed 2,025 of 3,901 passes for 27,989 yards and 212 touchdowns.

Bradshaw may not have been a ball control QB, but he was certainly erratic and inconsistent at times. That being said, he did win 4 SBs with the Steel Curtain and Franco Harris, Lyn Swann and John Stallworth.

Man, NFL history is littered with guys that were ball control focused. That's how Tom Brady won his first Superbowl, That's how Rothlesburger won his first SB, **** Joe Montana spent the first half his career as a ball control short safe pass type of QB.

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 12:00 PM
Bradshae was a very good QB and he played in a far different era. Anyways, his offenses produced still. He also wasn't much of a ball control guy with the same number of picks as TDs.

I gave you an example of a team that won consistently with a what many consider a subpar QB. My point is that he still won with a talented team.

It can be argued that Bradshaw was a "very good" QB. I personally think that Bradshaw got by on a strong arm, a strong personality and a fantastic team with a great coach.

However, if I had to pick a QB out of history for my all time NFL team, no way on God's Green Earth do I pick Bradshaw.

Hamrob
12-10-2009, 12:22 PM
OK... lets take a look at teams in playoff contention and see if Orton is better then anyone of them.

1. Peyton Manning -
2. Drew Brees -
3. Brett Favre -
4. Phillip Rivers -
5. Carson Palmer -
6. Tom Brady
7. Donavan Mcnabb
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Kurt Warner
11. Big Ben
12. Matt Ryan
13. Joe Flacco
14. Eli Manning
15. Matt Schaub
16. Jay Cutler
17. Kyle Orton

Try and Discredit thisGreat Post! Obviously, Jay doesn't belong there. We're not discussion potential. In terms of the other 15....I don't see us choosing Orton over any of them (Maybe Romo?).

This is my point exactly...Orton is an average QB. He's good to have...if there's nothing better available...but if we ever have the chance to get someone with more potential...I think we jump on it.

bowtown
12-10-2009, 12:24 PM
I gave you an example of a team that won consistently with a what many consider a subpar QB. My point is that he still won with a talented team.

It can be argued that Bradshaw was a "very good" QB. I personally think that Bradshaw got by on a strong arm, a strong personality and a fantastic team with a great coach.

However, if I had to pick a QB out of history for my all time NFL team, no way on God's Green Earth do I pick Bradshaw.

Right but the real queston is if you had to choose from a list of subpar QBs throughout history that you would allow your significant other sleep with, would you choose him then?

Taco John
12-10-2009, 12:30 PM
I wonder if they could get away with extending Orton for a single year. I'm sure Orton's agent would balk at that, but it seems like with all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA, we might be able to get away with it.

The Joker
12-10-2009, 12:34 PM
I wonder if they could get away with extending Orton for a single year. I'm sure Orton's agent would balk at that, but it seems like with all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA, we might be able to get away with it.

He's a RFA at the end of this year, he doesn't have a choice.

Bronco LB52
12-10-2009, 12:39 PM
I wonder if they could get away with extending Orton for a single year. I'm sure Orton's agent would balk at that, but it seems like with all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA, we might be able to get away with it.

Not only that, but Denver is the probably the best situation for his career in terms of the total package, i.e. opportunity to win, QB friendly system, offensive oriented head coach, weapons, offensive line.

A short-term deal with less money in Denver is more attractive to Orton than taking a more lucrative offer from a team like the Rams, Panthers, Raiders, Browns, Redskins, etc.

Al Wilson
12-10-2009, 12:44 PM
I think we're going to sign Orton to 4-5 year deal. McDaniels loves this guy, and so does the team. I have no clue why some of you are hating on this guy. He's a great quarterback, who most of the time (if not all) makes the right decision and finds the open man. And he is clutch. I love Orton.

jhns
12-10-2009, 12:48 PM
I think we're going to sign Orton to 4-5 year deal. McDaniels loves this guy, and so does the team. I have no clue why some of you are hating on this guy. He's a great quarterback, who most of the time (if not all) makes the right decision and finds the open man. And he is clutch. I love Orton.

We are bottom 3rd of the league in offensive production. We have good to great players at every offensive position other than QB. Why should I love Orton for being unproductive? Since when was the Broncos standard changed to love offenses that don't produce?

Lolad
12-10-2009, 12:48 PM
I knew that an intelligent football conversation could only last so long on this board....

(yawn)

actually it's a great point he's made. You are trying to sway from what he's presented like it's somehow false. How has Orton done the last 6 weeks? Not just the last game.

Our offense is producing subpar numbers and you guys are saying he's great for this system. Our average offensive production makes him the ideal canidate. RIGHHHTTT... We can't possibly find anybody else that could get us above average so we can actually utilize the talent around us.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 12:51 PM
I gave you an example of a team that won consistently with a what many consider a subpar QB. My point is that he still won with a talented team.

It can be argued that Bradshaw was a "very good" QB. I personally think that Bradshaw got by on a strong arm, a strong personality and a fantastic team with a great coach.

However, if I had to pick a QB out of history for my all time NFL team, no way on God's Green Earth do I pick Bradshaw.

LOL, subpar QB's are not Hall of Famers......

for that era, Bradshaw was 'great'

jhns
12-10-2009, 12:54 PM
I gave you an example of a team that won consistently with a what many consider a subpar QB. My point is that he still won with a talented team.

It can be argued that Bradshaw was a "very good" QB. I personally think that Bradshaw got by on a strong arm, a strong personality and a fantastic team with a great coach.

However, if I had to pick a QB out of history for my all time NFL team, no way on God's Green Earth do I pick Bradshaw.

Maybe. A lot of QBs look pretty mediocre from that time if you look at their stats. This debate will go nowhere though and I shouldn't have said to point that out. How good a QB is seems to be far to subjective to get into that. I personally would say Bradshaw was one of the better QBs of his time. His offenses produced. I don't care if he is the least physically gifted QB in the world. Just produce. This offense is bottom 3rd of the league with the talent to be top 5.

Really though, my entire opinion of Orton will change if he does well in the playoffs. If the offense produces there, I could care less if they are good now. All of my arguments are going off of what I have to go off of now.

Al Wilson
12-10-2009, 12:56 PM
We are bottom 3rd of the league in offensive production. We have good to great players at every offensive position other than QB. Why should I love Orton for being unproductive? Since when was the Broncos standard changed to love offenses that don't produce?
If you followed the broncos games this season you would know why the offense has not produced some of the time. This is a first year coach with an offensive system that the players have not learned before. Kyle Orton is in his first year in this offense and he has looked great. I dare you to put any other QB in this offensive system for the first time in his career and have better stats and ratings than Orton. Once this season is finished, I believe next year Orton will have an unbelievable year.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 12:58 PM
Kyle Orton is in his first year in this offense and he has looked great. I dare you to put any other QB in this offensive system for the first time in his career and have better stats and ratings than Orton. .

I'll take my chances with Peyton Manning or Tom Brady

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

homer on

jhns
12-10-2009, 01:00 PM
LOL, subpar QB's are not Hall of Famers......

for that era, Bradshaw was 'great'

There is some point to what he says. I should have specified the modern era. A lot of past greats would be mediocre if they played in todays NFL. QBs have far different standards now. A lot of teams did win without great QBs in those days but football was different then.

Al Wilson
12-10-2009, 01:01 PM
I'll take my chances with Peyton Manning or Tom Brady

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

homer on
Come on now...Brady played in this system, and Manning is Manning. I'm not a homer. I've seen almost all the broncos games this season, and I have seen the progression that Orton has made, and I'm sold he's going to be a great quarterback. He doesn't make mistakes, finds the open man, can throw the deep ball, and is clutch when we need someone to lead us to a win.

The bottom line is that he will be signed to a long term deal, and he is the QB of this franchise.

If you don't like that then go **** yourself.

jhns
12-10-2009, 01:06 PM
If you followed the broncos games this season you would know why the offense has not produced some of the time. This is a first year coach with an offensive system that the players have not learned before. Kyle Orton is in his first year in this offense and he has looked great. I dare you to put any other QB in this offensive system for the first time in his career and have better stats and ratings than Orton. Once this season is finished, I believe next year Orton will have an unbelievable year.

The only thing I see in that post are excuses. When the offense starts producing, I will stop saying they aren't and will stop looking for the problem. When Orton gets better, I will start saying we should lock him up forever. Right now, I think there is a problem.

By the way, the defense has a new scheme and 9 new starters. The offense has 3 new starters. The defense came out as the best in the league and have stayed near the top. They didn't need excuses.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 01:12 PM
Come on now...Brady played in this system, and Manning is Manning. I'm not a homer. I've seen almost all the broncos games this season, and I have seen the progression that Orton has made, and I'm sold he's going to be a great quarterback. He doesn't make mistakes, finds the open man, can throw the deep ball, and is clutch when we need someone to lead us to a win.

The bottom line is that he will be signed to a long term deal, and he is the QB of this franchise.

If you don't like that then go **** yourself.

The case can be made even though Cassel was on the team he didnt get as many reps. We saw how Simms looked. I don't think Orton has even been on par with him.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 01:14 PM
Come on now...Brady played in this system, and Manning is Manning. I'm not a homer. I've seen almost all the broncos games this season, and I have seen the progression that Orton has made, and I'm sold he's going to be a great quarterback. He doesn't make mistakes, finds the open man, can throw the deep ball, and is clutch when we need someone to lead us to a win.

The bottom line is that he will be signed to a long term deal, and he is the QB of this franchise.

If you don't like that then go **** yourself.

you said any QB...

I win

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1OMiSrEJXnY/RxkCA2arbSI/AAAAAAAAEVs/bsg7r-pt_VA/s400/herm.jpg

"YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME"



Orton will be a good backup Qb and mentore for or next QB.

Al Wilson
12-10-2009, 01:15 PM
By the way, the defense has a new scheme and 9 new starters. The offense has 3 new starters. The defense came out as the best in the league and have stayed near the top. They didn't need excuses.
Come on dude, now you're trying to compare the performance of defense vs offense. The offensive scheme complexity is totally different than the defensive, and takes longer time to be executed and gel. Don't give me this crap of an example.

Now, you're saying Orton hasn't satisfied you? How so ? I think he is playing magnificent football for a quarterback who has been playing in this system for the first time in his career, and for the first time playing with a new team and players. I think he's done an excellent job, and you can see week after week his confidence level is growing and he's the leader of this team.

Blow me haters

Al Wilson
12-10-2009, 01:17 PM
Orton will be a good backup Qb and mentore for or next QB.
Dude, you live in Colorado and you call yourself a fan.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 01:20 PM
Dude, you live in Colorado and you call yourself a fan.

LOL....now what does Ortons ability at QB have to do with your opinion about my fanaticism?

please explain

:giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle:

jhns
12-10-2009, 01:22 PM
Come on dude, now you're trying to compare the performance of defense vs offense. The offensive scheme complexity is totally different than the defensive, and takes longer time to be executed and gel. Don't give me this crap of an example.

Now, you're saying Orton hasn't satisfied you? How so ? I think he is playing magnificent football for a quarterback who has been playing in this system for the first time in his career, and for the first time playing with a new team and players. I think he's done an excellent job, and you can see week after week his confidence level is growing and he's the leader of this team.

kiss me, and tell me that you love me haters

The offense is one of the bad offenses in this league when you look at stuff like scoring totals. Considering the offensive genious of this coach and the great supporting cast, that is not satisfying to me. Maybe it is the new offense and I am just not looking at the big picture. Oh well, that means I am a sports fan. Satisfy me now or I complain.

jhns
12-10-2009, 01:24 PM
Dude, you live in Colorado and you call yourself a fan.

You have to think Orton is the future to be a good fan? Man, most everyone here is a bad fan. I see all of them complain about players they don't think are getting it done.

BlaK-Argentina
12-10-2009, 01:35 PM
We are bottom 3rd of the league in offensive production. We have good to great players at every offensive position other than QB. Why should I love Orton for being unproductive? Since when was the Broncos standard changed to love offenses that don't produce?

This is his and EVERYONE else's (aside from Gaffney) first year in the system.
We need time to see what he's capable of producing once they all get the system down. I shudder to think what Cutler would look like right now in this offense.

He's done well so far and should get better.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 01:44 PM
This is his and EVERYONE else's (aside from Gaffney) first year in the system.
We need time to see what he's capable of producing once they all get the system down. I shudder to think what Cutler would look like right now in this offense.

He's done well so far and should get better.

Little known fact.. But the Offense Scheme last year was NEW! You heard it here 1st they looked @ New Englands Offense and used it. From the 20 to 20 how well did we perform? #2 ranked offense! We know Cutler is terrible in the redzone. So we won't even go there. So saying this is everybodies 1st year in the system means nothing

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 01:47 PM
I think most were intrigued what Cutler could do in this offense (mcD). It's a shame.



but Cutler is where he wants to be, so **** him

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 01:49 PM
LOL, subpar QB's are not Hall of Famers......

for that era, Bradshaw was 'great'

How many Broncos are in the HOF? I have little to no respect for the HOF, thank you very little.

bronco militia
12-10-2009, 01:50 PM
How many Broncos are in the HOF? I have little to no respect for the HOF, thank you very little.

I'm not willing to tear down an NFL great to prove a point about a current marginal NFL player.

try comparing apples to apples.

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 01:53 PM
I'm not willing to tear down an NFL great to prove a point about a current marginal NFL player.

try comparing apples to apples.

We'll just agree to disagree, I think Bradshaw was mediocre.

Rabb
12-10-2009, 01:56 PM
We'll just agree to disagree, I think Bradshaw was mediocre.

if not possibly one of the most overrated QB's ever

Hercules Rockefeller
12-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Orton would be smart to resign for 3 or 4 million per year, and ready to mentor his eventual replacement. That would be ideal.

Yes, that's how every single player got in this league. The drive to accept less money and to be ready to mentor their replacement.

outdoor_miner
12-10-2009, 02:05 PM
Little known fact.. But the Offense Scheme last year was NEW! You heard it here 1st they looked @ New Englands Offense and used it. From the 20 to 20 how well did we perform? #2 ranked offense! We know Cutler is terrible in the redzone. So we won't even go there. So saying this is everybodies 1st year in the system means nothing

What a total twisting of facts. They incorporated new elements (from New England), but teams do that every single year. The offense was still Mike Shanahan's. Same terminology, same philosophy, etc etc etc. They simply added some plays.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-10-2009, 02:05 PM
I wonder if they could get away with extending Orton for a single year. I'm sure Orton's agent would balk at that, but it seems like with all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA, we might be able to get away with it.

For '10? Why? Why would Denver offer him a one-year extension when they can keep him at the 1st and 3rd RFA level? That's just a waste of money on their part. If it's to build goodwill, then why just a year? Faith in your QB would be a long-term extension, not a one-year deal with a little bit more than an RFA tag would offer.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Can we improve on the QB position in the NFL draft this year?

Lolad
12-10-2009, 02:14 PM
Can we improve on the QB position in the NFL draft this year?

I believe we can. Of course the rookie coming in would have to be groomed to start the next year. Thats why you sign Orton for 2-3 years. Groom our Rookie or even Brandstater and let Orton go for a 2nd and 4/5th.

SouthStndJunkie
12-10-2009, 02:17 PM
You guys can homer on all you want, but Kyle Orton is not the long term answer at QB for the Denver Broncos.

Josh McDaniels knows this....

That said....he has played better than I expected him to.

I would have no problem with Orton starting for us for another year while we groom a prospect to take over.

bowtown
12-10-2009, 02:17 PM
Little known fact.. But the Offense Scheme last year was NEW! You heard it here 1st they looked @ New Englands Offense and used it. From the 20 to 20 how well did we perform? #2 ranked offense! We know Cutler is terrible in the redzone. So we won't even go there. So saying this is everybodies 1st year in the system means nothing

Way to not understand what a system is.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-10-2009, 02:23 PM
I believe we can. Of course the rookie coming in would have to be groomed to start the next year. Thats why you sign Orton for 2-3 years. Groom our Rookie or even Brandstater and let Orton go for a 2nd and 4/5th.

Why does Orton have any incentive to sign for 2-3 years? Why does any team give Denver that trade value in a couple years for a QB everyone knows the Broncos want to dump?

This is a two-way street that is never grasped on this board when people actually think that players, especially starters like Orton coming out of their rookie deals, are actually going to sign short-term deals.

Orton is going to want to get paid, and 2-3 deal isn't going to get him that. This is the deal that sets he and his family up for the rest of his life.

Atwater His Ass
12-10-2009, 02:33 PM
The offense is one of the bad offenses in this league when you look at stuff like scoring totals. Considering the offensive genious of this coach and the great supporting cast, that is not satisfying to me. Maybe it is the new offense and I am just not looking at the big picture. Oh well, that means I am a sports fan. Satisfy me now or I complain.

Exactly. But people here can't look at anything objectively when it comes to the Broncos. It's either homer on or they'll never win another game again.

Orton is without a doubt the weakest link on the offense. People bitched and moaned about Cutler and his perceived inability to end drives with TD's.

We had to sit here and listen to people try to spin how Orton was perfect for this offense (oh an hey, not a throw in to the trade or anything) and how it was going to produce.

Now all we get is excuses as to why. It was also a very good point you made about the defensive turnover and how well they are preforming. Anyone who tries to brush this under the table obviously wasn't around here last season to see how horrible it was to have a ****ty defense because there is no way in hell any fan should be selling short the improvements made on the defensive side of the ball.

Orton isn't a horrible QB. He's just average and we need an upgrade at that position. It's not really all that hard to understand.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Why does Orton have any incentive to sign for 2-3 years? Why does any team give Denver that trade value in a couple years for a QB everyone knows the Broncos want to dump?

This is a two-way street that is never grasped on this board when people actually think that players, especially starters like Orton coming out of their rookie deals, are actually going to sign short-term deals.

Orton is going to want to get paid, and 2-3 deal isn't going to get him that. This is the deal that sets he and his family up for the rest of his life.

If he doesn't sign for the 2-3 year deal fine.. He sure as hell will play next year because he's a RFA. So the broncos still get what they want Orton for another year a QB in their 2nd year and Tom B in his 3rd year to take over the reigns

If he does sign on to a 2-3 year deal it's because he feels this is the best situation for him and he wants to work for that big contract. A team will give up a draft pick for him if they have that bad of a need. And every year a team has a need for an upgrade at QB.

errand
12-10-2009, 02:49 PM
All you damn homers read It and weep the guy is not a franchise QB. He's not even a top 15 QB... He's 16-20 range... AVERAGE! but he's our QB for now so I'll cheer him till we find a better one

Kyle Orton currently ranks 13th overall in the NFL in QB rating.

So tell me clown...what makes him "average"?

His career W-L record of 29-16?

His career winning pct. of 64%

His positive locker room presence?

His leadership skills? The fact that he's poised to lead his second team to the post season?

Better yet...why don't you list your criteria for a QB to considered a "franchise" QB?

Hercules Rockefeller
12-10-2009, 02:51 PM
A team will give up a draft pick for him if they have that bad of a need. And every year a team has a need for an upgrade at QB.

Really? Didn't you rank him as the 17th best QB out of all the QBs currently fighting for a playoff spot in this very thread? Wasn't he last on your list? Why would any of those 16 teams ahead of them give up a pick for a QB that you think is clearly not as good as what they have?

Care to rank the remaining 15 teams' QB situation so we can see who might consider him? Why would any of those teams trade for a vet who apparently is bringing his team down, instead of drafting someone?

You're all over the place in this thread, he's not that good and is only worthy of a short-term deal, but there are teams out there that will give up real value for him.

errand
12-10-2009, 03:13 PM
OK... lets take a look at teams in playoff contention and see if Orton is better then anyone of them.

1. Peyton Manning -
2. Drew Brees -
3. Brett Favre -
4. Phillip Rivers -
5. Carson Palmer -
6. Tom Brady
7. Donavan Mcnabb
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Kurt Warner
11. Big Ben
12. Matt Ryan
13. Joe Flacco
14. Eli Manning
15. Matt Schaub
16. Jay Cutler
17. Kyle Orton

Try and Discredit this

Well, let's see...is he better than any of them....hmmm...well, he beat Palmer, Romo, E. Manning, and Brady this season, and split with Rivers, he had us winning vs. Flacco before he got injured, lost to Big Ben....He's got P. Manning this week and McNabb later, so he could possibly have a record 7-3 against those you claim are better than him.

For the record though, the past two seasons and the current one ('07-'09) his W-L

vs Brees - 2-0

vs. McNabb 1-0

vs. P. Manning 1-0

vs. Rodgers 1-1

...and he whipped Favre 35-7 last time they clashed.

And the Bears never finished worse than .500 with Orton as their QB...he went 10-5, 2-1, and 9-6 as their starter. Meanwhilke the clown you have listed just above him has them mired at 5-7, and has thrown 17 TD's and 20 INT's

So I'd say he's better than about 75% of them....at least that's what the scoreboard says.

errand
12-10-2009, 03:19 PM
Teams in playoff contention? Why is Cutler in there? You just discredited your own post.

Cutler is mentioned because that's the real motive for his bashing Orton....

errand
12-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Orton should be resigned, but he shouldn't be looking at a big payday.

Orton will get whatever the market says he'll get.....and while alot you clowns like QB's that throw the ball hard and far, the majority of those that sign the paychecks like QB's that win games, and make the playoffs.

errand
12-10-2009, 03:25 PM
Yeah, that one man team argument is a good one.

So I guess Elway didn't actually win 148 games, ...or two Super bowls, huh?

errand
12-10-2009, 03:28 PM
they have not been pushed out yet.

Regardless, Cutler has a career record of 22-27, and has thrown 38 INT's in his last 28 games.....so how he seriously is even on your list is beyond me. there's only one reason why he's mentioned, and we all know what it is....

errand
12-10-2009, 03:30 PM
We give him a 3 year deal. I don't care for how much.. And get another QB in here to replace him after next year

If the Broncos make the playoffs, and continue to win games, and continue to make the playoffs with Orton as our starter...why would you replace him at all?

Popps
12-10-2009, 03:39 PM
Yes, that's how every single player got in this league. The drive to accept less money and to be ready to mentor their replacement.

Hilarious!

errand
12-10-2009, 03:41 PM
I would like to have a guy that can see and hit open receivers. I actually don't care who it is or how they look. If they produce, they are good. Right now, this offense has not been near its potential and you guys want it to stay that way because it is good enough... With the good to great players we have at every offensive position, this should be a productive offense. We are wasting a ton of talent because we have such a limited QB.

Wasted it how? We're 8-4 clown...

By the way... Can you name me a single team that has ever consistently won with a ball control QB? I know there are a few that have won a SB, but it is pretty hard to find a team with a mediocre QB that made it deep in the playoffs consistently.

Well, let's see.....The SF 49ers come to mind, Joe Montana isn't one of the first mentioned when you discuss prototypical QB's....however he ran Walsh's WCO better than anyone else....and trust me, the WCO is a ball control offense.

Every good team that is good for more than a year or two has a very good QB. Orton needs to get a lot better than he is now or we need to at least bring in competition.

Can he please complete the current season he's in before you start saying he needs to be replaced? You're gonna look pretty stupid if we not only make the playoffs, but go deep in them as well.

I have no idea what happened to Bronco fans. Did you all get your feelings hurt that bad that you have to defend Orton no matter what? Have you watched his play at all this season?

We've watched him lead this team to an 8-4 record, and he has us currently as the front runner to AFC 5th seed...with a team picked to finish dead last in many expert's minds.

How about his last game? 3 turnovers is him helping the team win?

you do realize we won that game 44-13 right?

Him throwing to a receiver 5 feet away and hitting him in the shoes is him being a great QB to you?

...vs throwing 20 INT's in 12 games?



In Bold

jhns
12-10-2009, 03:41 PM
So I guess Elway didn't actually win 148 games, ...or two Super bowls, huh?

Riiiiight..... Again, you guys with this one man team argument are obviously the football savy, smart posters. Why put the other 21 players on the field? Orton does it all himself! Elway obviously did it all himself. That is why he won the SB every year. It just took Elway....

LOL.....


Edit: This response covers your last post as well. Obviously Orton is doing this all himself. I guess you got me... But really, you have me laughing pretty hard with that argument. Do you guys really think you are being smart? You are arguing the exact opposite of this team message crap you all argued all offseason. That whole team crap was preached all offseason and now you argue it is all one guy. Great stuff.

Popps
12-10-2009, 03:46 PM
Again, we have the Jake Plummer situation...

A guy who finds a way to win, without looking sexy doing it.

Some people just can't handle it. They need to see a "rocket" arm or a scrambling QB. They just can't accept the notion that some QBs can win games without top-flight measurables.

Look, if you know of a guaranteed franchise QB, go ahead and bring him in. But, when you have a team that's winning... you'd better be very careful how you go about it.

Again, Broncos fans should know this as well as anyone. Jay Cutler was brought in to be the savior, and the franchise went straight to **** from the day he stepped in the door.


Of course, you could draft the next Rivers/Ben R., too. But, if you'd better be certain you've got the right guy... and you'd better have pieces in place.

Imagine going to Brian Dawkins after a successful 09, and telling him we're going to hand the ball to a snot-nosed rookie in 2010.

As I said, this is very tricky.

If at all possible, I think we have to bring a guy up slowly... and try to get a value in the middle rounds, as opposed to creating the pressure of a #1 pick waiting in the wings.

If we were losing, or not showing promise... I'd view this differently. But, we just don't know how far this team can go yet.

errand
12-10-2009, 03:47 PM
Why should I love Orton for being unproductive? Since when was the Broncos standard changed to love offenses that don't produce?

Unproductive how...he's won 8 of 11 starts this year.

Since when was the Broncos standard changed to hating QB's that win games...oh wait, never mind.

jhns
12-10-2009, 03:49 PM
Again, we have the Jake Plummer situation...

A guy who finds a way to win, without looking sexy doing it.

Some people just can't handle it. They need to see a "rocket" arm or a scrambling QB. They just can't accept the notion that some QBs can win games without top-flight measurables.


Yeah, Plummer won us so many SB's. What are we thinking....

No one is arguing that we need some great physically gifted QB. We are saying we want one that actually puts points on the board. They can be the weakest arm in the world if they produce. You guys acting like Orton is getting it done is just funny. You all got your feelings hurt by Cutler and now feel that you have to defend McDaniels and Orton no matter what. We are one of the worst offenses in the league with some of the best talent around the QB in the league.

errand
12-10-2009, 03:49 PM
LOL, subpar QB's are not Hall of Famers......

for that era, Bradshaw was 'great'

Bradshaw's in the hall because despite his pedestrian regular season numbers...his post season and in particular Super Bowl numbers were outstanding....proving once again the great aren't great all the time...they're great when they have to be.

jhns
12-10-2009, 03:50 PM
Unproductive how...he's won 8 of 11 starts this year.

Since when was the Broncos standard changed to hating QB's that win games...oh wait, never mind.

Again, the one man team argument.....

errand
12-10-2009, 03:54 PM
Why does Orton have any incentive to sign for 2-3 years? Why does any team give Denver that trade value in a couple years for a QB everyone knows the Broncos pseudo-fans want to dump?

This is a two-way street that is never grasped on this board when people actually think that players, especially starters like Orton coming out of their rookie deals, are actually going to sign short-term deals.

Orton is going to want to get paid, and 2-3 deal isn't going to get him that. This is the deal that sets he and his family up for the rest of his life.

fixed it for you....

broncolife
12-10-2009, 03:55 PM
I think we're going to sign Orton to 4-5 year deal. McDaniels loves this guy, and so does the team. I have no clue why some of you are hating on this guy. He's a great quarterback, who most of the time (if not all) makes the right decision and finds the open man. And he is clutch. I love Orton.

Do you remember our mistake with the Greaseball? People dont want to see us make the same mistake by signing him to a big arse contract after one year. And Griese had a better year than Orton has so far.

jhns
12-10-2009, 03:55 PM
fixed it for you....

LOL

I should go through your posts and see if you have ever complained about a coach or player. That way we know you aren't really a fan....

errand
12-10-2009, 03:59 PM
Yeah, Plummer won us so many SB's. What are we thinking....



How many SB's did Cutler win us? Wait that's unfair he only had a 3 year window....so let's make it easier for you. how many playoff apearances did Jay lead us to?

jhns
12-10-2009, 04:00 PM
How many SB's did Cutler win us? Wait that's unfair he only had a 3 year window....so let's make it easier for you. how many playoff apearances did Jay lead us to?

I wasn't aware that I was arguing Cutler is the answer.... ?

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure this is the first post in this thread that I even mentioned Cutler.

errand
12-10-2009, 04:03 PM
LOL

I should go through your posts and see if you have ever complained about a coach or player. That way we know you aren't really a fan....

Your ignorant post implied that the Broncos were going to dump Orton, when you have no idea if that is true or not. what inside information do you possess that leads you to believe that Orton is going to be gone in the next year or two?

If he wins games and we make the playoffs, why would you get rid of him? Or better yet look what happened the last time we did that.....

errand
12-10-2009, 04:05 PM
Again, the one man team argument.....

You doubting that if he wasn't our starter that we'd currently wouldn't sit at 8-4? you think Brandstater or Simms would have led us to 8 wins in 12 games?

jhns
12-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Your ignorant post implied that the Broncos were going to dump Orton, when you have no idea if that is true or not. what inside information do you possess that leads you to believe that Orton is going to be gone in the next year or two?

If he wins games and we make the playoffs, why would you get rid of him? Or better yet look what happened the last time we did that.....

Ummm.... You obviously have the wrong person and you haven't read my posts in this thread. I have addressed your second paragraph a few times already. Of course I'm not going to want him gone if he produces in the playoffs. I am giving my opinion of the situation as of now.

errand
12-10-2009, 04:08 PM
I wasn't aware that I was arguing Cutler is the answer.... ?

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure this is the first post in this thread that I even mentioned Cutler.

Your motives are transparent...everyone knows that when you bash Orton you're silently wishing we still had that ass clown Cutler. What other reason would you bitch about a Qb that's won 8 of 11 starts?

jhns
12-10-2009, 04:09 PM
You doubting that if he wasn't our starter that we'd currently wouldn't sit at 8-4? you think Brandstater or Simms would have led us to 8 wins in 12 games?

I think there are many QBs in this league that could lead us to a much better record. No, I don't think we have a better option on roster right now and I would never say Orton needs benched this season. I am just saying I would like to see some real competition brought in for next season. Maybe we don't have to bring someone in. Maybe Branstater will be good competition. If McDaniels thinks that, I hope he is thinking Branstater can really push for the starting job. I don't have any way of knowing how far along Branstater is or how good he can be.

jhns
12-10-2009, 04:10 PM
Your motives are transparent...everyone knows that when you bash Orton you're silently wishing we still had that ass clown Cutler. What other reason would you b**** about a Qb that's won 8 of 11 starts?

Because we are one of the worst offenses in the league? Did I not say this a few times already?

Again, you are only proving that you guys can't have a real conversation because you got your feelings hurt by Cutler and posters this offseason. Get over it already.

errand
12-10-2009, 04:11 PM
Ummm.... You obviously have the wrong person and you haven't read my posts in this thread. I have addressed your second paragraph a few times already. Of course I'm not going to want him gone if he produces in the playoffs. I am giving my opinion of the situation as of now.

Ok...as of now he's the 13th highest rated passer in the NFL....has won 8 of 11 starts...has a 2-1 TD to INT ratio...has us in position to make the playoffs....has us just one game out of 1st place....is a team leader and positive presence in the locker room and is loved by his teammates if not the fans.

But that warrants him being dumped huh?

cutthemdown
12-10-2009, 04:11 PM
so does this mean Orton isn't a FA if there's no CBA? Wow.

I guess the Broncos have all the leverage here. Orton should sign a Simms type deal for three years at low cost. If you doesn't then he'll just have to play out his $3million tender and deal with it.

not only Orton. Doom, Marshall, Kuper all of them only RFA.

jhns
12-10-2009, 04:14 PM
Ok...as of now he's the 13th highest rated passer in the NFL....has won 8 of 11 starts...has a 2-1 TD to INT ratio...has us in position to make the playoffs....has us just one game out of 1st place....is a team leader and positive presence in the locker room and is loved by his teammates if not the fans.

But that warrants him being dumped huh?

Passer rating? You do know that doesn't show how productive they are, right? It is the efficiency rating. You can be efficient and not be productive... Really? You are just staying with the one man team argument? Nice.

What warrents us looking for a replacement? Is that serious? We are one of the worst offenses in the league. We are one of the most talented offensive teams in the league. I get that you don't see anything wrong with this and I am OK with that. Lets stop pretending Orton is the team though, can we?

errand
12-10-2009, 04:15 PM
Because we are one of the worst offenses in the league? Did I not say this a few times already?

Again, you are only proving that you guys can't have a real conversation because you got your feelings hurt by Cutler and posters this offseason. Get over it already.

The 1977 Broncos went 12-2 and won the AFC title without a QB that threw for 2,000 yards, a RB that rushed for 500 yards, or a WR that caught 40 passes.....are you disappointed in them as well?

errand
12-10-2009, 04:16 PM
Passer rating? You do know that doesn't show how productive they are, right? It is the efficiency rating. You can be efficient and not be productive... Really? You are just staying with the one man team argument? Nice.

What warrents us looking for a replacement? Is that serious? We are one of the worst offenses in the league. We are one of the most talented offensive teams in the league. I get that you don't see anything wrong with this and I am OK with that. Lets stop pretending Orton is the team though, can we?

...vs your take that he's the albatross hanging around the offenses' neck?

jhns
12-10-2009, 04:16 PM
The 1977 Broncos went 12-2 and won the AFC title without a QB that threw for 2,000 yards, a RB that rushed for 500 yards, or a WR that caught 40 passes.....are you disappointed in them as well?

Did you just say I should be disappointed in a 70's team not having a great offense? I guess I am done arguing with you.

errand
12-10-2009, 04:23 PM
I think there are many QBs in this league that could lead us to a much better record. No, I don't think we have a better option on roster right now and I would never say Orton needs benched this season. I am just saying I would like to see some real competition brought in for next season. Maybe we don't have to bring someone in. Maybe Branstater will be good competition. If McDaniels thinks that, I hope he is thinking Branstater can really push for the starting job. I don't have any way of knowing how far along Branstater is or how good he can be.

You're bringing up next year when this year isn't even finished? Really, and how many of those QB's that you believe could lead us to a better record will be available?

You think guys like Brady and Manning and Ben will be available...or do you think that perhaps their owners, putting a priority on winning games would lock them up and prevent anyone else from signing them?

If you made these ignorant posts in February, perhaps you'd make alot more sense...however the Broncos are currently sitting at 8-4 and control their own destiny as far as making the playoffs, after a 3 year absence and while Orton isn't the sole reason...he's a big reason

errand
12-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Did you just say I should be disappointed in a 70's team not having a great offense? I guess I am done arguing with you.

No, I asked if you if you were disappointed in them, like you are this current team.

They won without flashy stats...which seems to be all you care about.

cutthemdown
12-10-2009, 04:53 PM
orton good enough to keep around while we groom Brandstater or wait for the right QB who is better then Orton to come around.

It would be stupid to not keep him for a couple more yrs.

Taco John
12-10-2009, 05:10 PM
orton good enough to keep around while we groom Brandstater or wait for the right QB who is better then Orton to come around.

It would be stupid to not keep him for a couple more yrs.

Would you give him a Cassel deal?

Lolad
12-10-2009, 05:13 PM
Really? Didn't you rank him as the 17th best QB out of all the QBs currently fighting for a playoff spot in this very thread? Wasn't he last on your list? Why would any of those 16 teams ahead of them give up a pick for a QB that you think is clearly not as good as what they have?

Care to rank the remaining 15 teams' QB situation so we can see who might consider him? Why would any of those teams trade for a vet who apparently is bringing his team down, instead of drafting someone?

You're all over the place in this thread, he's not that good and is only worthy of a short-term deal, but there are teams out there that will give up real value for him.

You're confused. The 16 teams ahead of him would only pick a guy who they feel is better than their current QB. The 15 teams below Orton would pick him up in a heartbeat because he's better than their current QB who's ranked in the bottom half of the league. So to them he would be an upgrade.

cutthemdown
12-10-2009, 05:28 PM
Would you give him a Cassel deal?

No I wouldn't. I also don't think though things are falling for Orton like they did Cassel. Also he won't be an UFA which hinders his movement. Broncos could tender him high at what 3-4 million a yr and they have to give a 1st round pick. I doubt any teams would want him for that so he won't get a Cassel deal.

Cassel got lucky I think.

Orton I think maybe 4 yrs 24 million with 8-10 mill guaranteed. But also I have no idea I'm just guessing. But I'm guessing it won't be blockbuster.

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 05:49 PM
Exactly. But people here can't look at anything objectively when it comes to the Broncos. It's either homer on or they'll never win another game again.

Orton is without a doubt the weakest link on the offense. People b****ed and moaned about Cutler and his perceived inability to end drives with TD's.

We had to sit here and listen to people try to spin how Orton was perfect for this offense (oh an hey, not a throw in to the trade or anything) and how it was going to produce.

Now all we get is excuses as to why. It was also a very good point you made about the defensive turnover and how well they are preforming. Anyone who tries to brush this under the table obviously wasn't around here last season to see how horrible it was to have a ****ty defense because there is no way in hell any fan should be selling short the improvements made on the defensive side of the ball.

Orton isn't a horrible QB. He's just average and we need an upgrade at that position. It's not really all that hard to understand.

Spoken like a poster who has no idea about team chemistry, leadership and all the intangibles a QB like Cutler does not possess. Oh, and the fact that the Broncos are winning with Orton.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 05:53 PM
Spoken like a poster who has no idea about team chemistry, leadership and all the intangibles a QB like Cutler does not possess. Oh, and the fact that the Broncos are winning with Orton.

So you believe that Denver can't regain chemistry with a new QB in his first year being a starter?

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 06:10 PM
I think there are many QBs in this league that could lead us to a much better record. No, I don't think we have a better option on roster right now and I would never say Orton needs benched this season. I am just saying I would like to see some real competition brought in for next season. Maybe we don't have to bring someone in. Maybe Branstater will be good competition. If McDaniels thinks that, I hope he is thinking Branstater can really push for the starting job. I don't have any way of knowing how far along Branstater is or how good he can be.

who gives a **** if guys like Peyton, Brady, Rivers, Brees, Rodgers, or Warner might have more talent or might possibly have this Broncos team with a better record than Orton right now. Are any of those guys that are perceived as better going to be available next season? Are there any rookies coming out in next seasons draft that instantly are going to be capable of delivering this team a better record that Orton has? the answer is an overwhelming NO.

i have no problem in bringing in a mid round guy for McD to groom and have as either a damn good backup or potential starter down the line, but to go through the Plummer-Cutler situation again bringing in a 1st round QB just seems incredibly stupid.

Orton is winning games for us, has us closer to the playoffs than we have been in over 3 years now. Why is looking for his replacement a pressing issue right now?

i could understand the replacement talk if we were winning in spite of him, and he was turning the ball over making bad decisions, being a bad teammate, and just ****ing the team over royally and we were still winning in spite of that, then there would be no complaint about us talking about bringing in a replacement.

but when the guy has us at 8-4, in position to at least get a WC playoff berth, and possibly a division crown, is throwing 2 TDs to every 1 INT, is a great leader and teammate and has the respect and love of his team, to talk about a replacement is stupid.

like him or not, but he is the closest thing to a franchise QB we have had since Elway.

Taco John
12-10-2009, 06:11 PM
No I wouldn't. I also don't think though things are falling for Orton like they did Cassel. Also he won't be an UFA which hinders his movement. Broncos could tender him high at what 3-4 million a yr and they have to give a 1st round pick. I doubt any teams would want him for that so he won't get a Cassel deal.

Cassel got lucky I think.

Orton I think maybe 4 yrs 24 million with 8-10 mill guaranteed. But also I have no idea I'm just guessing. But I'm guessing it won't be blockbuster.


I agree on all points.

Tombstone RJ
12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
So you believe that Denver can't regain chemistry with a new QB in his first year being a starter?

I'm saying give Orton some credit and respect. All he's done is win yet people want to dump on him because he's not Peyton Elway.

This Spread Offense is complicated and requires time to M-A-S-T-E-R. Orton is in his first year of this offense. It does not make sense to spend a high draft pick on a rookie QB because he "might" be better.

Orton has the respect of his team and his coaches, just not the fans. If he wins one playoff game, he is better than Cutler by a country mile and he deserves the chance to lead this team into the future.

If Orton gets this team to the playoffs but the Broncos don't win, he still deserves the opportunity to lead this team without looking over his shoulder at some highly paid draft pick.

I like Orton because he's a leader and he does in fact, win games. I'm willing to give him the respect and the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise. I'm not sure why other fans don't extend him this curtesy.

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 06:22 PM
Passer rating? You do know that doesn't show how productive they are, right? It is the efficiency rating. You can be efficient and not be productive... Really? You are just staying with the one man team argument? Nice.

What warrents us looking for a replacement? Is that serious? We are one of the worst offenses in the league. We are one of the most talented offensive teams in the league. I get that you don't see anything wrong with this and I am OK with that. Lets stop pretending Orton is the team though, can we?

1 man team argument, that has been your entire response to just about every single retort tossed your way.

are you one of those people who used to toss around the we had the 2nd ranked offense in the league last season, but only averaged 20 PPG people?

i don't give a rats ass if we have an offense that averages 10 PPG and very little yardage as long as we win.

Cutler may have led a more explosive in terms of yardage offense, but he didn't win

do you truly think anyone in the franchise is worried that the offense hasn't looked like the Patriots of a few years ago? no one cares as long as we win.

it goes back to wins. Orton is a proven winner. he was a winner in Chicago and before someone slams me that the defense won games for him, that is bull****, because outside of his rookie year his defenses were ranked in the 20s, and now he came to Denver where he continues his winning ways.

it is possible that a rookie QB could be brought in and in a year or 2 lead an explosive offense, but that isn't a guarantee. Orton on the other hand is improving week to week, the offense is beginning to click more and more, and as a starter the guy averages 10 wins a season. 10 wins basically guarantees a playoff berth almost every year.

ZONA
12-10-2009, 06:27 PM
The truth about what Orton can demand is still yet to be determined. If he plays well over the next 4 weeks and this team gets into the playoffs his price will go up. Orton is a good game manager but he's not a game changer and thus he will never command a super large contract but if he wins in the playoffs, that's going to help him get a decent contract. It's going to be interesting for sure. If the Broncos end up signing him for a decent contract for like 4 years, that tells us that Tom B is not improving as fast as McD probably hoped for. If we offer Orton a shorter contract (2 years) then that probably says they like where Tom is and are hoping he earns that starter job next year and they can live with paying Orton decent money for 2 years as the backup.

I still think we let Simms go and I'm curious to see if we go with 2 QB's next year or stay with 3. I have a feeling McD went with 3 this year because he wanted options until things sorted themselves out a little bit.

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 06:27 PM
I would like to have a guy that can see and hit open receivers. I actually don't care who it is or how they look. If they produce, they are good. Right now, this offense has not been near its potential and you guys want it to stay that way because it is good enough... With the good to great players we have at every offensive position, this should be a productive offense. We are wasting a ton of talent because we have such a limited QB.

By the way... Can you name me a single team that has ever consistently won with a ball control QB? I know there are a few that have won a SB, but it is pretty hard to find a team with a mediocre QB that made it deep in the playoffs consistently. Every good team that is good for more than a year or two has a very good QB. Orton needs to get a lot better than he is now or we need to at least bring in competition.
I have no idea what happened to Bronco fans. Did you all get your feelings hurt that bad that you have to defend Orton no matter what? Have you watched his play at all this season? How about his last game? 3 turnovers is him helping the team win? Him throwing to a receiver 5 feet away and hitting him in the shoes is him being a great QB to you?

you asked the question, and i give you JOE MONTANA. the most mediocre HOF QB ever. no great athletic talent, just surrounded by great teams, a led a ball control offense. and yes the WC Offense that Walsh created was a ball control offense.

Steve Young led that same offense, Troy Aikman while he did take shot down field, that offense lived with Emmit's legs.

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 06:38 PM
The truth about what Orton can demand is still yet to be determined. If he plays well over the next 4 weeks and this team gets into the playoffs his price will go up. Orton is a good game manager but he's not a game changer and thus he will never command a super large contract but if he wins in the playoffs, that's going to help him get a decent contract. It's going to be interesting for sure. If the Broncos end up signing him for a decent contract for like 4 years, that tells us that Tom B is not improving as fast as McD probably hoped for. If we offer Orton a shorter contract (2 years) then that probably says they like where Tom is and are hoping he earns that starter job next year and they can live with paying Orton decent money for 2 years as the backup.

I still think we let Simms go and I'm curious to see if we go with 2 QB's next year or stay with 3. I have a feeling McD went with 3 this year because he wanted options until things sorted themselves out a little bit.

i don't understand the Brandstater love on this board. he wasn't brought in to be our eventual starter. he is already just about as old as Orton who is in his 5th NFL season, and is still very raw. No one drafts a 26 year old raw QB to come in and be an eventual starter. He was brought in to be a Matt Cassel type and just sit on the bench and know the system inside and out in case of emergency.

SJ Bronco
12-10-2009, 06:43 PM
you asked the question, and i give you JOE MONTANA. the most mediocre HOF QB ever. no great athletic talent, just surrounded by great teams, a led a ball control offense. and yes the WC Offense that Walsh created was a ball control offense.

Steve Young led that same offense, Troy Aikman while he did take shot down field, that offense lived with Emmit's legs.

The truth shall set you free! Rep....(glad i didn't say it, these guys will try to argue vehemently in 5..4..3..2.......)

SJ Bronco
12-10-2009, 06:45 PM
i don't understand the Brandstater love on this board. he wasn't brought in to be our eventual starter. he is already just about as old as Orton who is in his 5th NFL season, and is still very raw. No one drafts a 26 year old raw QB to come in and be an eventual starter. He was brought in to be a Matt Cassel type and just sit on the bench and know the system inside and out in case of emergency.

I won't argue this, but why don't they promote him to #2 to get him ready for that role?

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 07:06 PM
I won't argue this, but why don't they promote him to #2 to get him ready for that role?

because at the moment, as bad as Simms is, Brandstater is so raw that he still isn't ready to take that role. also money plays a big factor in that. Simms is making like 2 million to be the backup and keeps the spot because of that.

2KBack
12-10-2009, 07:12 PM
The truth shall set you free! Rep....(glad i didn't say it, these guys will try to argue vehemently in 5..4..3..2.......)

Nah, there's three of us now (I mentioned Montana a page back)

SJ Bronco
12-10-2009, 07:32 PM
Nah, there's three of us now (I mentioned Montana a page back)

My bad, i admit, I didn't read the thread, just the last page. Props to you too. I live in the bay, so I've had to hear them blow joe my whole life now.

2KBack
12-10-2009, 07:48 PM
My bad, i admit, I didn't read the thread, just the last page. Props to you too. I live in the bay, so I've had to hear them blow joe my whole life now.

I hear ya, I thought Montana was great, but I also think Montana was a ball control QB who minimized his mistakes and had the luxury of just getting the ball into the hands of his surrounding talent. The ability to do that on a constant basis, and lead a team, can make someone a great QB.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 07:58 PM
If the rumors about us trying to get Quinn from the Browns have any truth to them then I think you can rule out that McD believes that Orton is the guy for the future.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-10-2009, 08:19 PM
You're confused. The 16 teams ahead of him would only pick a guy who they feel is better than their current QB. The 15 teams below Orton would pick him up in a heartbeat because he's better than their current QB who's ranked in the bottom half of the league. So to them he would be an upgrade.

No, the 15 teams below him are not going to trade for the 17th best QB in the NFL in a heartbeat.

Keep dreaming.

Lolad
12-10-2009, 08:22 PM
1 man team argument, that has been your entire response to just about every single retort tossed your way.

are you one of those people who used to toss around the we had the 2nd ranked offense in the league last season, but only averaged 20 PPG people?

i don't give a rats ass if we have an offense that averages 10 PPG and very little yardage as long as we win.

Cutler may have led a more explosive in terms of yardage offense, but he didn't win

do you truly think anyone in the franchise is worried that the offense hasn't looked like the Patriots of a few years ago? no one cares as long as we win.

it goes back to wins. Orton is a proven winner. he was a winner in Chicago and before someone slams me that the defense won games for him, that is bull****, because outside of his rookie year his defenses were ranked in the 20s, and now he came to Denver where he continues his winning ways.

it is possible that a rookie QB could be brought in and in a year or 2 lead an explosive offense, but that isn't a guarantee. Orton on the other hand is improving week to week, the offense is beginning to click more and more, and as a starter the guy averages 10 wins a season. 10 wins basically guarantees a playoff berth almost every year.

If you can improve on a player you move on it. That's why Cutler was brought up in trade rumors. McDaniels thought he could improve the QB position. The list of names I referred to a couple of pages back that are ahead of Orton PROVES we can still IMPROVE the QB position.

Saying you're fine with being average is your opinion. I know McDaniels doesn't want to be just average, barely making playoffs with 10 win seasons. Bottom of the league in Offensive Production. If this team is going to be great Orton isn't it. You just helped our argument.

I'm not saying we need a 1st rd pick to do it. Nor am I saying we trade for any of the guys that are on those teams. I'd take a guy in the 3rd with the intangibles. Groom him for a year or two and let him take the reigns

Lolad
12-10-2009, 08:24 PM
No, the 15 teams below him are not going to trade for the 17th best QB in the NFL in a heartbeat.

Keep dreaming.

We had guys just cry about how Orton wouldn't stay in the open market for long their would be a long list of teams wanting his services. Now you're saying the exact opposite.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-10-2009, 08:28 PM
We had guys just cry about how Orton wouldn't stay in the open market for long their would be a long list of teams wanting his services. Now you're saying the exact opposite.

Probably because there's a difference in the open market vs actually trading for someone.

If he is in fact the 17th best QB in the league like you claim, there is 0 incentive to trade for a guy like that. That's average. But if you don't have to give up any draft pick/player compensation and you don't have a good QB situation, then yes, that's something you explore.

Unrestricted free agent Kyle Orton garners a lot more interest than under contract, have to trade for him Kyle Orton. Why do you think guys who have franchise tags or are RFAs are rarely ever traded for, and key UFAs are quickly signed once free agency starts?

jhns
12-10-2009, 08:32 PM
1 man team argument, that has been your entire response to just about every single retort tossed your way.

are you one of those people who used to toss around the we had the 2nd ranked offense in the league last season, but only averaged 20 PPG people?

i don't give a rats ass if we have an offense that averages 10 PPG and very little yardage as long as we win.

Cutler may have led a more explosive in terms of yardage offense, but he didn't win

do you truly think anyone in the franchise is worried that the offense hasn't looked like the Patriots of a few years ago? no one cares as long as we win.

it goes back to wins. Orton is a proven winner. he was a winner in Chicago and before someone slams me that the defense won games for him, that is bull****, because outside of his rookie year his defenses were ranked in the 20s, and now he came to Denver where he continues his winning ways.

it is possible that a rookie QB could be brought in and in a year or 2 lead an explosive offense, but that isn't a guarantee. Orton on the other hand is improving week to week, the offense is beginning to click more and more, and as a starter the guy averages 10 wins a season. 10 wins basically guarantees a playoff berth almost every year.

That is because you all keep arguing that this is a one man sport. It isn't my fault you guys can't move beyond that argument.

Have I at all argued we need to be a record setting offense? We have not touched the top half of the league at any point this season. If we were in the top half of the league, I wouldn't have much to say. You are a little over dramatic.

I have not argued anything about Cutler. Again you all just show that you can't get over him. Just because he isn't the answer doesn't mean Orton is....

Lolad
12-10-2009, 08:36 PM
Probably because there's a difference in the open market vs actually trading for someone.

If he is in fact the 17th best QB in the league like you claim, there is 0 incentive to trade for a guy like that. That's average. But if you don't have to give up any draft pick/player compensation and you don't have a good QB situation, then yes, that's something you explore.

Unrestricted free agent Kyle Orton garners a lot more interest than under contract, have to trade for him Kyle Orton. Why do you think guys who have franchise tags or are RFAs are rarely ever traded for, and key UFAs are quickly signed once free agency starts?

You're right in the respect that Franchised players are hardly ever traded for because the asking price is to high. I envision doing what New England did with Cassel for a 2nd rd pick.. Even a 3 and 5/6 range would suffice.

jhns
12-10-2009, 08:38 PM
you asked the question, and i give you JOE MONTANA. the most mediocre HOF QB ever. no great athletic talent, just surrounded by great teams, a led a ball control offense. and yes the WC Offense that Walsh created was a ball control offense.

Steve Young led that same offense, Troy Aikman while he did take shot down field, that offense lived with Emmit's legs.

Those guys all had productive offenses. That isn't even close to the same situation that we are in.

jhns
12-10-2009, 08:48 PM
who gives a **** if guys like Peyton, Brady, Rivers, Brees, Rodgers, or Warner might have more talent or might possibly have this Broncos team with a better record than Orton right now. Are any of those guys that are perceived as better going to be available next season? Are there any rookies coming out in next seasons draft that instantly are going to be capable of delivering this team a better record that Orton has? the answer is an overwhelming NO.

i have no problem in bringing in a mid round guy for McD to groom and have as either a damn good backup or potential starter down the line, but to go through the Plummer-Cutler situation again bringing in a 1st round QB just seems incredibly stupid.

Orton is winning games for us, has us closer to the playoffs than we have been in over 3 years now. Why is looking for his replacement a pressing issue right now?

i could understand the replacement talk if we were winning in spite of him, and he was turning the ball over making bad decisions, being a bad teammate, and just ****ing the team over royally and we were still winning in spite of that, then there would be no complaint about us talking about bringing in a replacement.

but when the guy has us at 8-4, in position to at least get a WC playoff berth, and possibly a division crown, is throwing 2 TDs to every 1 INT, is a great leader and teammate and has the respect and love of his team, to talk about a replacement is stupid.

like him or not, but he is the closest thing to a franchise QB we have had since Elway.

If there is a QB McDaniels feels is better in this draft, which I can guarantee there is one better than Orton, we need to take them. If Orton fails because he has competition, then he isn't the man anyways. You should thrive under pressure if you are really someone that can lead a team to SBs. We are going to have a very high draft pick. As long as McDaniels isn't having a fluke year, we aren't going to be close to this again. We haven't had one this high in a LONG time. I would love to get a top notch QB. We have the team to bring one along nicely. Young QBs can be conservative and ball control while they learn. I bet there is also one that can produce on the scoreboard a lot more than what we have this year.

You don't think this team wins in spite of Orton? Have you watched the games? He hits receivers in the feet from 5 feet away and they make crazy catches and take them long distances. He had 3 turnovers against KC.... We have won multiple games by our run game and receivers that Orton looked horrible in. I do not even know what you guys are watching. He has no accuracy and he tries putting touch on the ball and ends up throwing far to hard or far to soft. He overthrows and underthrows guys that are within 10 yards of him. The only thing he does well consistently is not turn the ball over and even that has been changing lately. He now has more turnovers that Favre and he was at 0/1 forever.

BroncoInferno
12-10-2009, 08:57 PM
David Garrard got $60 million over 6 years with $18 million guarenteed. Even if you don't think Orton is as good as Garrard, the difference is not terribly significant. Anyone thinking Orton can be signed long term for $4-5 million is laughably ignorant on the economics of NFL QBs.

Al Wilson
12-10-2009, 09:24 PM
If you can improve on a player you move on it. That's why Cutler was brought up in trade rumors. McDaniels thought he could improve the QB position. The list of names I referred to a couple of pages back that are ahead of Orton PROVES we can still IMPROVE the QB position.

Saying you're fine with being average is your opinion. I know McDaniels doesn't want to be just average, barely making playoffs with 10 win seasons. Bottom of the league in Offensive Production. If this team is going to be great Orton isn't it. You just helped our argument.

I'm not saying we need a 1st rd pick to do it. Nor am I saying we trade for any of the guys that are on those teams. I'd take a guy in the 3rd with the intangibles. Groom him for a year or two and let him take the reigns
Dude, you sound so dumb, seriously. You're telling me that McDaniels doesn't want an average QB when he was thinking about trading Cutler. Obviously McDaniels interest is to have the best team possible. So tell me, when he traded Jay Cutler, why did he choose Chicago and asked them for Kyle Orton, when McDaniels had the opportunity to trade Cutler to the Jets or some other team for a high draft pick which would've resulted in a top QB prospect such as Sanchez. Explain that to me genius.

Also, the Brandstater talk is just retarded. The dude was selected in 6th round and he's not even a backup yet. He is as mentioned, an emergency backup, and probably will be the backup next year.

And to those saying sign Orton to 2-3 year deal then you're beyond stupid. Tell me which ****ing starting QB would take a deal like that? It's a ****ing slap to the face. He will either be offered a long term deal (most likely) or they will trade him (unlikely to happen).

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 10:14 PM
If you can improve on a player you move on it. That's why Cutler was brought up in trade rumors. McDaniels thought he could improve the QB position. The list of names I referred to a couple of pages back that are ahead of Orton PROVES we can still IMPROVE the QB position.

Saying you're fine with being average is your opinion. I know McDaniels doesn't want to be just average, barely making playoffs with 10 win seasons. Bottom of the league in Offensive Production. If this team is going to be great Orton isn't it. You just helped our argument.

I'm not saying we need a 1st rd pick to do it. Nor am I saying we trade for any of the guys that are on those teams. I'd take a guy in the 3rd with the intangibles. Groom him for a year or two and let him take the reigns

i completely agree. if we could upgrade any position, then we should. my only problem with the lets get a rookie and let Orton walk talk is that, we won't upgrade immediately. this past offseason bringing in guys like Dawkins, Goodman and Hill was predicated on this team being a contender quickly, not 3 years down the road when our rookie has been groomed and is ready to take over, and that will be a very difficult sell to these vets that, the franchise has decided to flush the work that this years squad has put in, in favor of getting a rookie QB who a few years from now, may be better than Orton.

we did that with Plummer and Cutler and it didn't work out too good.

we are setting a foundation this season of key players that will be the nucleus of a competitive team for several years to come, with guys like Clady, Harris, Moreno, Royal, Ayers, Smith, Barrett, Bruton, McBath, Larsen, Woodyard and DJ. and possibly Marshall, Doom, Kuper and Orton. if we return our RFA we have a large very yound nucleus of good players to build upon for the future.

a lot of people don't remember that Orton is still a young QB, and has many years left in him, which includes years to improve.

i have no problem with us bringing in a guy in the middle rounds like Lefevour or any other guys McD feels may be worth taking a shot on grooming for possibly taking over in a few years if Orton can't cut it, or to just be a backup if my opinion that Orton can be the man is proven true, i just don't want us to make that mistake of bringing in a 1st round rookie who is just a nuisance to our starter, getting into his head and making him have those thoughts of at any moment i can be tossed aside for a rookie.

BroncoMan4ever
12-10-2009, 10:22 PM
If there is a QB McDaniels feels is better in this draft, which I can guarantee there is one better than Orton, we need to take them. If Orton fails because he has competition, then he isn't the man anyways. You should thrive under pressure if you are really someone that can lead a team to SBs. We are going to have a very high draft pick. As long as McDaniels isn't having a fluke year, we aren't going to be close to this again. We haven't had one this high in a LONG time. I would love to get a top notch QB. We have the team to bring one along nicely. Young QBs can be conservative and ball control while they learn. I bet there is also one that can produce on the scoreboard a lot more than what we have this year.

You don't think this team wins in spite of Orton? Have you watched the games? He hits receivers in the feet from 5 feet away and they make crazy catches and take them long distances. He had 3 turnovers against KC.... We have won multiple games by our run game and receivers that Orton looked horrible in. I do not even know what you guys are watching. He has no accuracy and he tries putting touch on the ball and ends up throwing far to hard or far to soft. He overthrows and underthrows guys that are within 10 yards of him. The only thing he does well consistently is not turn the ball over and even that has been changing lately. He now has more turnovers that Favre and he was at 0/1 forever.

i'm not arguing that there isn't a QB in this upcoming draft that may not become better than Orton. i am simply saying that of the 10-15 QBs that will be drafted, maybe 1 becomes a star and at best 4 become starters, the rest will be out of the league or backups within 3 years. looking at the position in the draft class, there is not 1 guy that screams of being a sure thing. also, if any of these guys do become elite QBs it is going to be at least 3 years before that happens.

and because of that, the safest and smartest thing to do is to give Orton a new contract and allow him to continue to grow and learn in McD's system as opposed to gambling the future on a rookie.

HAT
12-10-2009, 10:30 PM
If there is a QB McDaniels feels is better in this draft, which I can guarantee there is one better than Orton, .....

:rofl:

Do you EVER get sick of being wrong? Serious question.

HAT
12-10-2009, 10:33 PM
Those guys all had productive offenses. That isn't even close to the same situation that we are in.

Actually.....It shouldn't really matter to you what 'situation' 'we' are in....You proclaimed 8 months ago that this franchise was set back "decades".


That means you don't need to worry about the Broncos drafting a QB until like 2033.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 10:36 PM
:rofl:

Do you EVER get sick of being wrong? Serious question.

So you don't believe there is a QB in this draft that is going to be better then Orton?

HAT
12-10-2009, 10:49 PM
So you don't believe there is a QB in this draft that is going to be better then Orton?

Career-wise? Possibly.
But not in '10, '11 or '12.

Drafting a QB for anything other than Brandstater fodder would be stupid.

As I've said before....Denver should just wait until they have a top 10 pick after their '11 SB hangover and maneuver for Luck or Barkley in '12.

Orton=Clutch
Orton=Winner
Orton>Cutler
McD=Smart
Denver's 2010 1st round pick via Chicago>Denver's own 2010 pick traded to the 'Hags.

Deal.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 11:00 PM
Career-wise? Possibly.
But not in '10, '11 or '12.

Drafting a QB for anything other than Brandstater fodder would be stupid.

As I've said before....Denver should just wait until they have a top 10 pick after their '11 SB hangover and maneuver for Luck or Barkley in '12.

Orton=Clutch
Orton=Winner
Orton>Cutler
McD=Smart
Denver's 2010 1st round pick via Chicago>Denver's own 2010 pick traded to the 'Hags.

Deal.

Brandstater wouldn't even be drafted this year and if he was half as good as people here want to make him out to be he would have stolen reps when Orton was hurt. He didn't even play when Simms was sucking it up in a game we could have won against the Skins if we had a QB worth a ****. We have a top ten pick this year, you don't wait to see if you are going to suck in the future to get another top ten.

The MVPlaya
12-10-2009, 11:07 PM
Brandstater wouldn't even be drafted this year and if he was half as good as people here want to make him out to be he would have stolen reps when Orton was hurt. He didn't even play when Simms was sucking it up in a game we could have won against the Skins if we had a QB worth a ****. We have a top ten pick this year, you don't wait to see if you are going to suck in the future to get another top ten.

Brandstater is pretty much being "red shirted" this year. That's how McDaniels' system works. Bring in a rookie QB and sit him out for 1 year+ so he can grasp the system, learn, see the NFL at game speed week in and week out.

Because he didn't come in for Orton didn't mean he's worse than Simms. Simms had NFL experience and that's what mattered MOST.

He also took more reps than Brandstater during the off-season, practice, etc which is why he is the 2nd listed QB.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 11:12 PM
Teams passed up on AP because he was "injury prone". Sam Bradford is a risk but QB's like him don't fall down in the draft that often. If he is there I don't know how you can't draft him. 4700 yards 50 TD's to 7 INT's is flat out impressive. He would have been the first pick last year if he went and odds are he would have been the first QB taken this year had he not gotten hurt. We have Orton for one more year because he is a RFA, that is more then enough time for Bradford to rest and learn the system. Sure he got hurt but there is a 97% success rate to his injury. At 6'4" 223 fits McD's system.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 11:17 PM
Brandstater is pretty much being "red shirted" this year. That's how McDaniels' system works. Bring in a rookie QB and sit him out for 1 year+ so he can grasp the system, learn, see the NFL at game speed week in and week out.

Because he didn't come in for Orton didn't mean he's worse than Simms. Simms had NFL experience and that's what mattered MOST.

He also took more reps than Brandstater during the off-season, practice, etc which is why he is the 2nd listed QB.

This is BS. Is this not Orton's and Simms's first year in the "system"? Simms was doing nothing to prove he even should be in the NFL let alone trying give us a legit shot at beating the Chargers. After what he did vs the Skins the reps should have went to Brandstarter. I would hope to god we wouldn't pass on a legit star QB just to see if we have something in Brandstarter. If and I mean IF Brandstarter proves he is good then we can trade him like the Eagles did with Feeley and the Falcons did with Schaub and get value out of him.

snowspot66
12-10-2009, 11:24 PM
This is BS. Is this not Orton's and Simms's first year in the "system"? Simms was doing nothing to prove he even should be in the NFL let alone trying give us a legit shot at beating the Chargers. After what he did vs the Skins the reps should have went to Brandstarter. I would hope to god we wouldn't pass on a legit star QB just to see if we have something in Brandstarter. If and I mean IF Brandstarter proves he is good then we can trade him like the Eagles did with Feeley and the Falcons did with Schaub and get value out of him.

Nonsense. A ****ty veteran backup will always be the better choice over a late round rookie in a complex system. The guy won't and shouldn't be considered for anything higher on the depth chart until next year.

DBroncos4life
12-10-2009, 11:44 PM
Nonsense. A ****ty veteran backup will always be the better choice over a late round rookie in a complex system. The guy won't and shouldn't be considered for anything higher on the depth chart until next year.

A complex system? This is ALL three QB's first year in this system. He put our starting QB into the game on short rest with a bad ankle. Why risk the injury if we didn't have too? Tom Brandstater may or may not end up being a good QB but odds are Sam Bradford will be better and if he is there when we pick I hope we select him.

snowspot66
12-11-2009, 12:02 AM
A complex system? This is ALL three QB's first year in this system. He put our starting QB into the game on short rest with a bad ankle. Why risk the injury if we didn't have too? Tom Brandstater may or may not end up being a good QB but odds are Sam Bradford will be better and if he is there when we pick I hope we select him.

And a rookie won't know it or the speed of the game.

DBroncos4life
12-11-2009, 12:15 AM
And a rookie won't know it or the speed of the game.

LOL What the ****. Simms hasn't played a real game in years. The speed of the game was clearly too much for him to handle. 36 yards of total O vs the Skins. Never in my life have I seen a back up QB play so poorly. TB should have had his chance THAT game and he should have had a bulk of the snaps during the week to prepare for SD just in case Simms crapped his pants again.

DBroncos4life
12-11-2009, 12:34 AM
Look I don't know how to make this more clear. I want McD to consider the fact that we might not be in a position to draft a "star" QB ala what Shanahan did with Cutler (Shanahan didn't see us getting into the top 15 again soon). No way in hell does Orton **** himself like Plummer did. I'm all for signing Orton to a max three year deal and if we some how walk away with Bradford letting him sit the first year two years to recover and learn the system and then making the third year a open QB competition. Sure we have Tom Brandstater but who could have really predicted that the next year we would have a chance at drafting Sam Bradford without having a top three pick? Players like that don't fall into your lap often, and I think the Packers fans would agree, maybe not when the Rodgers selection was made but a few years latter they are thrilled.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 02:05 AM
Again, we have the Jake Plummer situation...

A guy who finds a way to win, without looking sexy doing it.

Some people just can't handle it. They need to see a "rocket" arm or a scrambling QB. They just can't accept the notion that some QBs can win games without top-flight measurables.



What the hell is this?

No one was complaining about Plummer when he had a career year and helped us to go to the AFC Championship. It was ONLY when he flat out started sucking by throwing int after int and fumbling after teams figured out the key to stopping Plummer was just to keep him in the pocket, stop him from rolling out, and force him to be a pocket passer.

He couldn't do it staring from the season opener against the Rams. It was only then that people, rightly, talked about his huge number of turnovers just like they noted Cutler made the same mistakes as well.

You're act of just making sh*t up is getting old.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 02:11 AM
As for resigning Orton? Forget it.

The guy has zero leverage. He's going to be an RFA (with no CBA agreement) and Denver can easily hang onto him by giving him a tender.

He goes into 2010 as his contract year with every reason to do his best with a full year and two offseasons in McD's offense. It's a great situation for Denver and Orton can't do anything about it except step up and do his best to try and win a big new deal.

Besides, Denver SHOULDN'T sign a QB to a long term deal off of just one season. I'd like to see how Orton improves and if he can get better next year with the league having a full year of film on him and how functions in this offense.

Signing him to a long term deal now would just be plain stupid.

elsid13
12-11-2009, 04:59 AM
Orton will come back to Denver at decent contract (think something similar to what they gave Simms), because there isn't going to much of demand/market for him. Don't overvalue him because he is a bronco. There will be QB selected in this upcoming draft just because it very good year for one because of the depth.

My fear remains that after a full year of tape of Orton in this system, defense coordinators will have established game plan to stop our passing game.

jhns
12-11-2009, 05:55 AM
Actually.....It shouldn't really matter to you what 'situation' 'we' are in....You proclaimed 8 months ago that this franchise was set back "decades".


That means you don't need to worry about the Broncos drafting a QB until like 2033.

Really? You got a link to that?

Also, try throwing that QB in the draft thing back at me next year. I would love to eat crow on that. This is a real question. Do you guys actually think you are bringing intelligent arguments to the table?

oubronco
12-11-2009, 05:58 AM
Teams passed up on AP because he was "injury prone". Sam Bradford is a risk but QB's like him don't fall down in the draft that often. If he is there I don't know how you can't draft him. 4700 yards 50 TD's to 7 INT's is flat out impressive. He would have been the first pick last year if he went and odds are he would have been the first QB taken this year had he not gotten hurt. We have Orton for one more year because he is a RFA, that is more then enough time for Bradford to rest and learn the system. Sure he got hurt but there is a 97% success rate to his injury. At 6'4" 223 fits McD's system.

I like it :thumbsup:

Lolad
12-11-2009, 06:03 AM
Dude, you sound so dumb, seriously. You're telling me that McDaniels doesn't want an average QB when he was thinking about trading Cutler. Obviously McDaniels interest is to have the best team possible. So tell me, when he traded Jay Cutler, why did he choose Chicago and asked them for Kyle Orton, when McDaniels had the opportunity to trade Cutler to the Jets or some other team for a high draft pick which would've resulted in a top QB prospect such as Sanchez. Explain that to me genius.

Also, the Brandstater talk is just retarded. The dude was selected in 6th round and he's not even a backup yet. He is as mentioned, an emergency backup, and probably will be the backup next year.

And to those saying sign Orton to 2-3 year deal then you're beyond stupid. Tell me which ****ing starting QB would take a deal like that? It's a ****ing slap to the face. He will either be offered a long term deal (most likely) or they will trade him (unlikely to happen).

mcDaniels wanted to win now. He wanted cassel for cutler because he had the most experience and could just continue on from the year before. He didn't trade for a high draft pick because that would mean starting from scratch! There aren't that many rookies that come in their 1st year and perform. Matt Ryan and Flacco were the exceptions.

Orton at the present time gives us the best chance to win now. Even though he's average at best. I'm arguing the point that we can do better than average. Let's not stand Pat because he's barely getting by. That's what average is

jhns
12-11-2009, 06:15 AM
I just don't get what you guys think is a more pressing need. To me, we look like we are a QB away from a great team. For this next draft, I would say the needs are interior o-line and some defensive depth. You can get top of the line interior o-linemen in the middle rounds of the draft. We have one of the top defenses in the league, so we don't have pressing needs there. It would be nice to build depth and bring in some competition, but we don't need starters now. We can use every draft pick on defense other than the first and one of the middle ones that we use to help the line. That is my suggestion from what we have seen from the team so far.

I just don't get why you guys get so upset that some of us aren't drooling over an unproductive, bottom of the league, offense. Did you get that hurt by Cutler? QB is just about being a nice guy now?

TailgateNut
12-11-2009, 06:44 AM
Actually.....It shouldn't really matter to you what 'situation' 'we' are in....You proclaimed 8 months ago that this franchise was set back "decades".


That means you don't need to worry about the Broncos drafting a QB until like 2033.

He's "BF7 light", full of **** but believes he's always right. Then when his "predictions" are proven to be wrong, he backpeddles better than anyone else.

At least the Rev owned up to his BS and had his helping of crow.

BroncoInferno
12-11-2009, 06:51 AM
What the hell is this?

No one was complaining about Plummer when he had a career year and helped us to go to the AFC Championship. It was ONLY when he flat out started sucking by throwing int after int and fumbling after teams figured out the key to stopping Plummer was just to keep him in the pocket, stop him from rolling out, and force him to be a pocket passer.

He couldn't do it staring from the season opener against the Rams. It was only then that people, rightly, talked about his huge number of turnovers just like they noted Cutler made the same mistakes as well.

You're act of just making sh*t up is getting old.

He isn't making it up, fontaine. Plenty of people like Taco were lambasting Plummer as early as the 2004 playoff loss to Indy. Or have you forgotten Taco's infamous "chart" that "proved" Plummer was to blame for that loss because he didn't lead an 8 minute scoring drive every time he had the ball?

jhns
12-11-2009, 06:54 AM
He's "BF7 light", full of **** but believes he's always right. Then when his "predictions" are proven to be wrong, he backpeddles better than anyone else.

At least the Rev owned up to his BS and had his helping of crow.

Speaking of people that got their feelings hurt. Are you ever going to stop crying?

BTW, I have eaten tons of crow from this offseason. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with this conversation. Other than you all being butthurt that others have different opinions. I can't help that though. You will have to learn to move on yourself.

Paladin
12-11-2009, 06:55 AM
At least the Rev owned up to his BS and had his helping of crow.

With hot red sauce......

bowtown
12-11-2009, 07:18 AM
He's "BF7 light", full of **** but believes he's always right. Then when his "predictions" are proven to be wrong, he backpeddles better than anyone else.

At least the Rev owned up to his BS and had his helping of crow.

Speaking of, where is Rev? This place isn't the same without him.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 07:27 AM
He isn't making it up, fontaine. Plenty of people like Taco were lambasting Plummer as early as the 2004 playoff loss to Indy. Or have you forgotten Taco's infamous "chart" that "proved" Plummer was to blame for that loss because he didn't lead an 8 minute scoring drive every time he had the ball?

Yeah so what does that have to do with this:

Some people just can't handle it. They need to see a "rocket" arm or a scrambling QB. They just can't accept the notion that some QBs can win games without top-flight measurables.

There's a big difference between criticizing an individuals play when they make mistakes (and rightly so) and the revisionist picture Popps is painting.

I thought the difference was so obvious it was assumed but I guess not.

The difference is obvious because just what the hell do people here and the rest of the Media expect Orton and our offense to do against the Colts?

Yes, that's exactly right, lead long drives in order to keep Manning off the field.

So if Orton sucks and start pulling a Plummer by turning over the ball, missing open WRs and not being able to throw from the Pocket, then he thoroughly will deserve criticism.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 07:40 AM
And again, anyone who thinks this is a Jake Plummer situation like Popps is just plain retarded or trying really hard to spin something into what it isn't.

Plummer was the complete opposite of Orton. A QB with a career losing percentage before getting to Denver, completely mistake prone, and a turnover machine, with marginal ability to throw from the pocket who could only function in a system that constantly asked him to throw on the run.

Orton is the exact opposite. A QB that has always won, primarily by hardly ever turning over the football and making intelligent football decisions like throwing the ball away rather than forcing a left handed interception, and can distribute the ball from the pocket.

jhns
12-11-2009, 07:44 AM
He's "BF7 light", full of **** but believes he's always right. Then when his "predictions" are proven to be wrong, he backpeddles better than anyone else.

At least the Rev owned up to his BS and had his helping of crow.

I am bored so I am going to waste time ripping this fake fan.

This guy claims he has me on ignore since before the season. He now claims to know everything I have said. He constantly talks about me. He is acting like a teenage girl with a crush. Sorry, I don't roll that way tail. Even if you were a woman, you would need to lose 150 lbs or so since you are fat and out of shape. Get up once in a while...

Also, Mr. Tailgate has no room to talk. He has already admitted he isn't a fan. He said that if this team ever limited tailgating to around 8 hours, like some other teams, that he would sell everything Bronco relates. This shows he only pretends to be a fan because he is socially inadiquate and tailgates are the only way he can get people to hang out with him. It is pretty funny that he tries talking about others when he has admitted he doesn't care about the football that the Broncos play...

Carry on.

jhns
12-11-2009, 07:49 AM
And again, anyone who thinks this is a Jake Plummer situation like Popps is just plain retarded or trying really hard to spin something into what it isn't.

Plummer was the complete opposite of Orton. A QB with a career losing percentage before getting to Denver, completely mistake prone, and a turnover machine, with marginal ability to throw from the pocket who could only function in a system that constantly asked him to throw on the run.

Orton is the exact opposite. A QB that has always won, primarily by hardly ever turning over the football and making intelligent football decisions like throwing the ball away rather than forcing a left handed interception, and can distribute the ball from the pocket.

Plummer also led a productive offense when he was here. That includes his first year. He got benched when he stopped being productive. Orton has not led a productive offense. That is the biggest difference I see between them.

Hamrob
12-11-2009, 08:04 AM
Dude, you live in Colorado and you call yourself a fan.I tell you what. Let's see what Orton does against the Colts. Good QB's should play there best against the best. Let's see him excel and beat the Colts. Then let's see him do it a few more times. Yes, I know he beat Dallas and San Diego at the beginning of the season. Let's see him do it in December and then let's see him win us a playoff game. Then we can talk about how great he is. If that happens, then I'll backoff of Orton...he will have earned it.

Beantown Bronco
12-11-2009, 08:04 AM
Plummer also led a productive offense when he was here. That includes his first year.

Not entirely true.

The 2003 Broncos offense only scored 3 pts per game more than the 2009 Denver Broncos offense (23 pts to 20). And that 3 pt differential was FAR more attributable to Clinton Portis and his 1600 yds rushing and 14 TDs than Plummer and his 2100 yards passing, 15 TDs and 7 INTs.

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:10 AM
Not entirely true.

The 2003 Broncos offense only scored 3 pts per game more than the 2009 Denver Broncos offense (23 pts to 20). And that 3 pt differential was FAR more attributable to Clinton Portis and his 1600 yds rushing and 14 TDs than Plummer and his 2100 yards passing, 15 TDs and 7 INTs.

I can't look right now to verify, but I will throw it out there anyways(like this is new). I'm pretty sure 23 points a game would have been a top 10 offense last year.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 08:12 AM
Not entirely true.

The 2003 Broncos offense only scored 3 pts per game more than the 2009 Denver Broncos offense (23 pts to 20). And that 3 pt differential was FAR more attributable to Clinton Portis and his 1600 yds rushing and 14 TDs than Plummer and his 2100 yards passing, 15 TDs and 7 INTs.

Not to mention we have yet to play KC and Oak at home.

That alone should push our ppg upwards.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 08:14 AM
I can't look right now to verify, but I will throw it out there anyways(like this is new). I'm pretty sure 23 points a game would have been a top 10 offense last year.

You forgot to mention that 23 points per game would have won most superbowls too! (while we're mentioning useless, irrelevant facts).

Beantown Bronco
12-11-2009, 08:15 AM
I can't look right now to verify, but I will throw it out there anyways(like this is new). I'm pretty sure 23 points a game would have been a top 10 offense last year.

Nope. Broncos averaged 23.1 last year and they were 16th.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STAT S&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_SCORED&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:20 AM
Nope. Broncos averaged 23.1 last year and they were 16th.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STAT S&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_SCORED&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

Nevermind, I read your post wrong. I thought you compared them to last years offensive production. I was thinking 3 more points a game on last years total would have put them in the top 10. I guess I need to learn to read.

Do you know what the ranking of that offense was in 2003? I can't go to espn or nfl.com right now. This is being typed on my phone.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 08:20 AM
Nope. Broncos averaged 23.1 last year and they were 16th.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STAT S&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_SCORED&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

LOL

But, but, but Orton hasn't proven anything compared to PlummInt!!!

Mr.Meanie
12-11-2009, 08:22 AM
I tell you what. Let's see what Orton does against the Colts. Good QB's should play there best against the best. Let's see him excel and beat the Colts. Then let's see him do it a few more times. Yes, I know he beat Dallas and San Diego at the beginning of the season. Let's see him do it in December and then let's see him win us a playoff game. Then we can talk about how great he is. If that happens, then I'll backoff of Orton...he will have earned it.

Hopefully Orton takes care of business this weekend so he can prove himself to "Hamrob" on orangemane.com

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:23 AM
You forgot to mention that 23 points per game would have won most superbowls too! (while we're mentioning useless, irrelevant facts).

Well, I don't know about all this "facts" talk, but 23 points a game would be much better than 20. That still isn't very productive though. As was just pointed out, 23 points a game would still put you in the bottom half of the league last year.

fontaine
12-11-2009, 08:24 AM
Do you know what the ranking of that offense was in 2003? I can't go to espn or nfl.com right now. This is being typed on my phone.

Wait a minute. You don't know the stats/ranking on the offense of 2003 and yet you throw out statements like this a few posts ago?

Plummer also led a productive offense when he was here. That includes his first year. He got benched when he stopped being productive. Orton has not led a productive offense. That is the biggest difference I see between them.

:rofl:

Beantown Bronco
12-11-2009, 08:24 AM
Do you know what the ranking of that offense was in 2003? I can't go to espn or nfl.com right now. This is being typed on my phone.

10th in pts

Looking closer, it's pretty obvious that Portis (and possibly the defense and special teams) had a lot to do with that production. In 4 of their highest scoring games, here's what Plummer did:

30 pts against Cincy: Plummer threw for 115 yds, 0 TDs and 3 INTs
37 against SD: threw for 94 yds total
45 pts against KC: the infamous Clinton Portis WWE Belt Game (Plummer had 1 TD)
26 pts against NE: he didn't play. It was the Kannel game.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STAT S&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_SCORED&d-447263-n=1&season=2003&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:25 AM
LOL

But, but, but Orton hasn't proven anything compared to PlummInt!!!

Plummer still led a more productive offense. How sad is that?

fontaine
12-11-2009, 08:26 AM
Well, I don't know about all this "facts" talk, but 23 points a game would be much better than 20. That still isn't very productive though. As was just pointed out, 23 points a game would still put you in the bottom half of the league last year.

Is the season over yet?

The team has scored more points in the past two games and we're still going to play KC and Oak at home. Wait till the end of the season when you start comparing ppg.

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:27 AM
Wait a minute. You don't know the stats/ranking on the offense of 2003 and yet you throw out statements like this a few posts ago?



:rofl:

Umm, I was 100 percent correct...

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:30 AM
10th in pts

Looking closer, it's pretty obvious that Portis (and possibly the defense and special teams) had a lot to do with that production. In 4 of their highest scoring games, here's what Plummer did:

30 pts against Cincy: Plummer threw for 115 yds, 0 TDs and 3 INTs
37 against SD: threw for 94 yds total
45 pts against KC: the infamous Clinton Portis WWE Belt Game (Plummer had 1 TD)
26 pts against NE: he didn't play. It was the Kannel game.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STAT S&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_SCORED&d-447263-n=1&season=2003&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

So let me get this straight. Now that the argument of the QB doing it all himself doesn't fit your side, you are arguing a team can win in spite of bad QB play? Hmmm... Intersting.

elsid13
12-11-2009, 08:32 AM
Is the season over yet?

The team has scored more points in the past two games and we're still going to play KC and Oak at home. Wait till the end of the season when you start comparing ppg.

PPG are really not a good indicator of how good any offense is. I think pretty clear that this is an OK offense. It not horrible but it not very special either. It good enough to win in the regular season, but I don't know if it is good enough to win in the post season. I know for fact that if the defense doesn't have a good day, this offense isn't capable of matching a team like Colts TD for TD in track race.

Taco John
12-11-2009, 08:36 AM
He isn't making it up, fontaine. Plenty of people like Taco were lambasting Plummer as early as the 2004 playoff loss to Indy. Or have you forgotten Taco's infamous "chart" that "proved" Plummer was to blame for that loss because he didn't lead an 8 minute scoring drive every time he had the ball?


My lambasting of Plummer didn't start until the 2005 playoff loss. And he deserved it. Kyle is going to take the same criticism that Plummer got if we go up against Indy and he can't generate any offense, and puts the defense on the field with Peyton Manning all day long. I think Kyle is a better big game quarterback than Plummer ever was though. He doesn't seem to rattle as easily due to the pressure. Of course, hit him in the mouth early and often, and he struggles. But with Plummer, all that had to happen was the clock starting to tick, and he turned into a mess once a big game rolled around.

jhns
12-11-2009, 08:37 AM
Is the season over yet?

The team has scored more points in the past two games and we're still going to play KC and Oak at home. Wait till the end of the season when you start comparing ppg.

So we shouldn't discuss anything because the season isn't over? What exactly do you want to talk about then?

I don't really care to compare them. I didn't bring it up. I just pointed out that Plummers offenses ranked much higher than Ortons offense has ranked at any point this year, after others made the comparison. I don't really care what past teams did when discussing this. I just care that we haven't been close to the top half of the league in scoring and we have good to great offensive talent at every position around the QB. If he improves, I won't have any more complaints. If he is just bad in the regular season but produces in the post season, I won't have any complaints. Right now, this offense is one of the bad ones. This isn't an opinion. Look it up.

Taco John
12-11-2009, 08:40 AM
It was the 2005 playoff loss to Indy that I jumped off the Plummer bandwagon. Earlier, in the 2004 campaign, however, I was riding high on it, and coined the phrase "I'm going to go ahead and call it," believing that Plummer would take us to the Superbowl that year the way he and the the team were playing.

elsid13
12-11-2009, 08:42 AM
It was the 2005 playoff loss to Indy that I jumped off the Plummer bandwagon. Earlier, in the 2004 campaign, however, I was riding high on it, and coined the phrase "I'm going to go ahead and call it," believing that Plummer would take us to the Superbowl that year the way he and the the team were playing.

Tick-Tick Tick (Countdown clock for Popps to come into the thread and call TJ a lair and remaking history)

Beantown Bronco
12-11-2009, 08:45 AM
So let me get this straight. Now that the argument of the QB doing it all himself doesn't fit your side, you are arguing a team can win in spite of bad QB play? Hmmm... Intersting.

Not at all. Show me where I changed my argument.

I am pointing out cold, hard numbers here and you are the one who is incorrectly attributing said numbers to the QB, saying he "led" them to this and that. I have never done this and never will.

I have shown point blank that there were SEVERAL other things at play here....most notably, Clinton Portis.

Face it, if anyone made a mistake here, you did. You even admitted it earlier without even realizing it when you first said:

Plummer also led a productive offense when he was here. That includes his first year.

and then you said:

23 points a game would be much better than 20. That still isn't very productive though. As was just pointed out, 23 points a game would still put you in the bottom half of the league last year.

Taco John
12-11-2009, 08:54 AM
Of course, Jake did lead the league in interceptions in 2004. That 4 INT game in San Diego that December shook my confidence. That game is when I started to turn on Jake.